Author Topic: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?  (Read 32155 times)

Pangolin

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2014, 02:11:33 PM »
My partner and I passed up buying a low-priced home in a semi-rural area due to seeing graffiti in the neighborhood that suggested "our kind" might not be safe or welcome there.

With most co-workers, I go out of my way to not out myself during small talk about what I did over the weekend, etc. I'm getting antsy about finding a new job that hopefully is more comfortable for me. I agree with the OP and some other posters that there are instances where being LGBT can affect your finances.

As far as 'Does it matter in this forum?' for some people it's just nice to know that there are others around that share a somewhat rare/minority characteristic in common.

sheepstache

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2014, 02:18:58 PM »
I understand it's not something that tends to come up in normal conversation, that's why I put the question out there.  I figured the number would be low.  Mustachians are rare, LGBT people are somewhat rare.  So I figured rare times rare equals really rare.

That's bad math.

Unless there's little overlap in the sets (due to LGBTetc folks being less frugal than average or something), the subset of Mustachians who are LG... should be the same percentage as the subset of the overall population.

In other words, the percentage here should be the same as the percentage elsewhere.

The overall raw number may be low, due to there not being very many Mustachians and the percentage being low, but the percentage should be the same.

Well that is the math of probability though. The likelihood of two unrelated events is P1 * P2. The likelihood that it's Tuesday is 1/7, the likelihood that it's raining is, say 1/10, the likelihood that it's Tuesday and raining is lower than the likelihood that it's either Tuesday OR it's raining.

Which is just to say that I understood them to be speaking of raw numbers :)

arebelspy

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2014, 02:24:16 PM »
I understand it's not something that tends to come up in normal conversation, that's why I put the question out there.  I figured the number would be low.  Mustachians are rare, LGBT people are somewhat rare.  So I figured rare times rare equals really rare.

That's bad math.

Unless there's little overlap in the sets (due to LGBTetc folks being less frugal than average or something), the subset of Mustachians who are LG... should be the same percentage as the subset of the overall population.

In other words, the percentage here should be the same as the percentage elsewhere.

The overall raw number may be low, due to there not being very many Mustachians and the percentage being low, but the percentage should be the same.

Well that is the math of probability though. The likelihood of two unrelated events is P1 * P2. The likelihood that it's Tuesday is 1/7, the likelihood that it's raining is, say 1/10, the likelihood that it's Tuesday and raining is lower than the likelihood that it's either Tuesday OR it's raining.

Which is just to say that I understood them to be speaking of raw numbers :)

The bad math is saying "rain is rare, and Tuesday is rarer than any random day, so rain on Tuesday is rarer."  No, rain on Tuesday is as likely as on any other day.

Gay Mustachians are as likely as Gay (anything else not correlated with being gay).

Which is just to say that I didn't see them speaking of raw numbers, and feel like it would be silly to do so. Percentage-wise we should have the same amount as the general population.
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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2014, 02:44:51 PM »
Just to throw my hat into the ring,

I'm in more or less the same camp as GoblinChief.  Bi, but in a long term monogamous marriage with the opposite gender, so get consistently 'read' as straight, and don't face any of the discrimination issues in any meaningful way. (aside from feeling unable to 'out' myself in my church community, which is another whole discussion, but doesn't impact on my finances :)  )

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2014, 03:05:24 PM »
...for some people it's just nice to know that there are others around that share a somewhat rare/minority characteristic in common.

Totally.

Across this forum this is definitely expressed around variables such as autism, low income, autoimmune challenges, single parenting, adoption, alcoholic parents, location, grandparents that hoard, etc. Anywhere we find people with a distinctive and life-influencing variable in common, many of us definitely feel more welcome, safe, understood, and connected here (as elsewhere).

At least one person has talked about the potential impact of polyamory on their finances, which I found very interesting. And several members recently connected around the oddity of "wealthy parents who ask their low-income children to make expensive trips to go see said wealthy parents", or "parents who fund some of their kids' visits but not theirs". Finding these very specific matters in common seems to have brought energy and healing to people who have been feeling some angst (guilt, sadness, frustration). Finances are so interconnected with all parts of our lives: emotional, relational, psychological, etc.

Not even tongue-in-cheek, I'm a little bit tempted to name my next Journal (per new goals) with something like "Canadian, autism, no co-parent, low income", all of which definitely impact my finances, so as to welcome and build community with people who have any one or more of these variables in common with me. Not that I'd want to restrict the sub-community to that, but I acknowledge that so many aspects of who we are really do impact our finances, and also that when we find people with major yet distinct variables in common, we can feel more relief, safety, connection, hope, and encouragement in seeing their successes. To that end, I really appreciate people sharing their distinct variables and/or the more vulnerable aspects of their life journey.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2014, 03:17:28 PM »
So just for fun (no offense intended, I'm a numbers guy so I like this stuff), let's put some rough numbers out there:

There are currently 14,213 members registered on the forum. Obviously there are many who never participate in discussions, and there are many more who simply read MMM and never visit the forum. I can't begin to estimate those numbers so maybe someone else can play this game too. I grabbed a few solid numbers though from the demographics I can find easily.

Based on this link which I also saw quoted on wiki so hopefully it's accurate (I heard a stat long ago that 1 in 13 men were gay, and that's 7.69%):
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/

I'm estimating 10-15% of Americans as LGBTQ.... (3.5% are L&G, about 0.31% are T, 11% acted on same sex attractions, nearly 15% acknowledge some same-sex attractions) so if mustachians and Americans have roughly the same proportion of LGBTQ... then:

Forum members = 14,213 * 10% = 1,421 or * 15% = 2,132
Most online today = 799 * 10% = 80 or * 15% = 120
Most online ever = 1,093 * 10% = 109 or * 15% = 164
MMM readers = ? I think I once read over half a million unique visitors to the site, but I bet a large majority of them immediately dismissed it after reading one post.

Obviously the mustachian demographic is not exactly indicative of the population as a whole, but we could argue it could be both more or less representative. Maybe we tend to be more liberal. Maybe LGBTQ... tend to be more frivolous with money. All things considered, and from everything I've read in this thread and many other threads, I wouldn't be surprised if these numbers were close. I believe I could now name 20 LGBTQ members off the top of my head, not that I would ever make such a list. Remember, I'm Allied so I hope no one is offended by my little exercise.

ch12

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2014, 08:24:12 PM »
I understand it's not something that tends to come up in normal conversation, that's why I put the question out there.  I figured the number would be low.  Mustachians are rare, LGBT people are somewhat rare.  So I figured rare times rare equals really rare.

That's bad math.

Unless there's little overlap in the sets (due to LGBTetc folks being less frugal than average or something), the subset of Mustachians who are LG... should be the same percentage as the subset of the overall population.

In other words, the percentage here should be the same as the percentage elsewhere.

The overall raw number may be low, due to there not being very many Mustachians and the percentage being low, but the percentage should be the same.

Well that is the math of probability though. The likelihood of two unrelated events is P1 * P2. The likelihood that it's Tuesday is 1/7, the likelihood that it's raining is, say 1/10, the likelihood that it's Tuesday and raining is lower than the likelihood that it's either Tuesday OR it's raining.

Which is just to say that I understood them to be speaking of raw numbers :)

The bad math is saying "rain is rare, and Tuesday is rarer than any random day, so rain on Tuesday is rarer."  No, rain on Tuesday is as likely as on any other day.

Gay Mustachians are as likely as Gay (anything else not correlated with being gay).

Which is just to say that I didn't see them speaking of raw numbers, and feel like it would be silly to do so. Percentage-wise we should have the same amount as the general population.
So just for fun (no offense intended, I'm a numbers guy so I like this stuff), let's put some rough numbers out there:

There are currently 14,213 members registered on the forum. Obviously there are many who never participate in discussions, and there are many more who simply read MMM and never visit the forum. I can't begin to estimate those numbers so maybe someone else can play this game too. I grabbed a few solid numbers though from the demographics I can find easily.

Based on this link which I also saw quoted on wiki so hopefully it's accurate (I heard a stat long ago that 1 in 13 men were gay, and that's 7.69%):
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/

I'm estimating 10-15% of Americans as LGBTQ.... (3.5% are L&G, about 0.31% are T, 11% acted on same sex attractions, nearly 15% acknowledge some same-sex attractions) so if mustachians and Americans have roughly the same proportion of LGBTQ... then:

Forum members = 14,213 * 10% = 1,421 or * 15% = 2,132
Most online today = 799 * 10% = 80 or * 15% = 120
Most online ever = 1,093 * 10% = 109 or * 15% = 164
MMM readers = ? I think I once read over half a million unique visitors to the site, but I bet a large majority of them immediately dismissed it after reading one post.

Obviously the mustachian demographic is not exactly indicative of the population as a whole, but we could argue it could be both more or less representative. Maybe we tend to be more liberal. Maybe LGBTQ... tend to be more frivolous with money. All things considered, and from everything I've read in this thread and many other threads, I wouldn't be surprised if these numbers were close. I believe I could now name 20 LGBTQ members off the top of my head, not that I would ever make such a list. Remember, I'm Allied so I hope no one is offended by my little exercise.

Thanks for running possible numbers. My two cents: it's probably representative of the overal population.

I don't why but seeing the responses made me smile, both that we have a decent sized LGBTQ group on here but also the swift response that it does not matter to from many allies on the board.  For a financial site, this forum is quite "liberal" for the lack of a better word, maybe open is the better word and that really makes me happy to be here.
I think that Mustachianism attracts those who score a little higher on openness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits#Openness_to_experience

Quote
People who are open to experience are intellectually curious, open to emotion, sensitive to beauty and willing to try new things. They tend to be, when compared to closed people, more creative and more aware of their feelings. They are also more likely to hold unconventional beliefs.

I would posit that Mustachianism is more likely to be tried by those open to new things. We, as a group, hold the unconventional belief that saving for FIRE is a good idea. With that train of thought, LGBT Mustachians would be higher than average. I'd say that in real life, it falls around average.

kd2008

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2014, 09:22:59 PM »
Count me gay. Intersectionality of identities and societal labeling of such identities - both, ascribed and avowed is begin studied currently at great depth.

Intersectionality: I am a foreign national, non-white in race hence easily "ascribed" by others as immigrant/alien etc. But my sexual orientation isn't usually easily ascribed. Based on stereotypes and mannerisms, a few may label me gay and would be right.

I have a STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering & Math) background and profession, so it is a part of my "avowed" identity. It is apparent from my ease of number, being analytical, willingness to look up data etc. I do introduce myself as an engineer.

So community cannot simply be identity specific, say "LGBT mustachians." A community engenders a label and then that label starts getting both ascribed and avowed as an identity. For example, group of people seeking FIRE and visiting this forum and embracing minimalist life style, adopt the brand of the forum and blog - they become mustachians!

I hope this is helpful to OP. I recently was at a STEM LGBT conference, where I met a few Wisconsin folks wanting to leave because of perceived hostile environment. I asked them, would they rather stay and seize the opportunity to usher in change? Wouldn't their life be more meaningful because of it? Would moving elsewhere guarantee no discrimination? This was just the start of the discussion ... Btw, I am in the buckle of the bible belt and glad to enjoy to the great quality of living and super frugal life and plenty of gay friends.

sheepstache

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2014, 09:35:27 PM »
I understand it's not something that tends to come up in normal conversation, that's why I put the question out there.  I figured the number would be low.  Mustachians are rare, LGBT people are somewhat rare.  So I figured rare times rare equals really rare.

That's bad math.

Unless there's little overlap in the sets (due to LGBTetc folks being less frugal than average or something), the subset of Mustachians who are LG... should be the same percentage as the subset of the overall population.

In other words, the percentage here should be the same as the percentage elsewhere.

The overall raw number may be low, due to there not being very many Mustachians and the percentage being low, but the percentage should be the same.

Well that is the math of probability though. The likelihood of two unrelated events is P1 * P2. The likelihood that it's Tuesday is 1/7, the likelihood that it's raining is, say 1/10, the likelihood that it's Tuesday and raining is lower than the likelihood that it's either Tuesday OR it's raining.

Which is just to say that I understood them to be speaking of raw numbers :)

The bad math is saying "rain is rare, and Tuesday is rarer than any random day, so rain on Tuesday is rarer."  No, rain on Tuesday is as likely as on any other day.

Gay Mustachians are as likely as Gay (anything else not correlated with being gay).

Which is just to say that I didn't see them speaking of raw numbers, and feel like it would be silly to do so. Percentage-wise we should have the same amount as the general population.

Oh, no, I get what you were saying was bad math. It's just, if someone is looking for a group of people with similar experiences they can connect to, it makes sense they'd be happy with a certain number of similar people, not be concerned with the composition of the whole group. If they find a satisfactory quorum of LGBT folks to discuss their issue with, I don't see it bothering them if it turns out there are more straight people than they expected.

Perhaps I'm wrong and it's something more like extroversion/introversion or political leanings, where people might complain that too many perspectives on the board are those of introverts or liberals and therefore it's hard to have a good discussion.

arebelspy

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2014, 09:44:38 PM »
Sure, but the original post was:
Is it rare for LGBT people to be Mustachian or am I just not noticing them?

And my point was: no rarer than in any other segment of the population.
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sheepstache

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2014, 10:08:18 PM »
Sure, but the original post was:
Is it rare for LGBT people to be Mustachian or am I just not noticing them?

And my point was: no rarer than in any other segment of the population.

Ah ha :)  And what I read from the original post was:
I haven't seen much mention of it on here except for one post in the dating section that got zero response.
That is, they were judging by how active the topic was. Specifically in terms of numbers. So the "rare" struck me as intending more the 'unusual' meaning, few and far between, sparse, rather than the 'low percentage' meaning. If you go scuba diving it's rare to see a fish even though fish are the most common sea creatures.
Ah, reading interpretations...

arebelspy

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2014, 09:34:37 AM »
Good point.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with two kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
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meadow lark

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2014, 02:58:39 PM »
Ooh Ooh Count me!  Count me!  4.7 on the Kinsey Scale, happily married to another woman.  Often refer to myself as lesbian because I am too lazy to remember if I am attracted to men that day.  Sorry, not so into Furries, Virginia Bob, but I might be okay with a were-tiger.

MoneyCat

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2014, 03:10:32 PM »
Considering that this forum is almost entirely composed of either libertarians and liberal hippies, I don't think anyone here thinks it's that big of a deal if someone in this community is gay.  We are a very accepting bunch of people.  I wouldn't be surprised if the number of LGBT mustachians mirrors the general percentage of gays in society.  There really isn't anything about Mustachianism that would favor one orientation over another.

kd2008

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2014, 02:35:42 PM »
I want to put out there ...would anybody be interested in a social group online for LGBT related stuff to enable non-mustachian discussions. If allowed on the forum we could do it here. I don't know if a thread already exists.

StartingEarly

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2014, 02:47:03 PM »
I think that would just go under off topic.

Dicey

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2014, 02:54:18 PM »
I want to put out there ...would anybody be interested in a social group online for LGBT related stuff to enable non-mustachian discussions. If allowed on the forum we could do it here. I don't know if a thread already exists.
kd2008, I'd politely ask you to reconsider. Mustachians are a pretty accepting group. Getting to FIRE is pretty orientation non-specific. Please stay and hang out with everyone. You're welcome here and we wouldn't want to miss any great input anyone came up with. Since we all have the same or similar goals, let's stick together and help each other out. Just my two cents.

arebelspy

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2014, 02:55:56 PM »
Various people have started their own Google Groups to discuss other topics as well.

I want to put out there ...would anybody be interested in a social group online for LGBT related stuff to enable non-mustachian discussions. If allowed on the forum we could do it here. I don't know if a thread already exists.
kd2008, I'd politely ask you to reconsider. Mustachians are a pretty accepting group. Getting to FIRE is pretty orientation non-specific. Please stay and hang out with everyone. You're welcome here and we wouldn't want to miss any great input anyone came up with. Since we all have the same or similar goals, let's stick together and help each other out. Just my two cents.

I assumed (s)he meant for non-Mustachian topics, and they'd continue to use the forum for Mustachian topics.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with two kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

kd2008

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2014, 03:32:43 PM »
Various people have started their own Google Groups to discuss other topics as well.

I want to put out there ...would anybody be interested in a social group online for LGBT related stuff to enable non-mustachian discussions. If allowed on the forum we could do it here. I don't know if a thread already exists.
kd2008, I'd politely ask you to reconsider. Mustachians are a pretty accepting group. Getting to FIRE is pretty orientation non-specific. Please stay and hang out with everyone. You're welcome here and we wouldn't want to miss any great input anyone came up with. Since we all have the same or similar goals, let's stick together and help each other out. Just my two cents.

I assumed (s)he meant for non-Mustachian topics, and they'd continue to use the forum for Mustachian topics.

Yes that is correct. Thanks! I will always come here for Mustachian advice! :)

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2014, 03:43:05 PM »
Howdy. I'm a G in the LGBT. Been with my husband for 21 years (I'm 41) and married just 1. Being DINKs has allowed us a lot of financial freedom that I see friends with a couple of kids really struggle with. Though we are frugal in our daily lives (rarely go out to eat, do our own housework, our own yard work, frugal daily activities) we splurge on travel. It often blows people away with how often we travel, but when you don't have 2 kids to tote around it isn't hard.

It has also helped that I came into a good amount of inheritance and though we could both retire right now, we keep on plugging away as we enjoy our jobs. We don't like to shop at all, which is the anti-thesis of a lot of gay friends who are always sporting new clothes, new cars, new new new. It seems like there is a lot of pressure on the gay community to have it all - the right clothes, car, house, etc. We know people who really have no retirement but have double BMWs. We're going to retire by 50 (at least I will, maybe my husband will continue working as he loves his job more than I do) and who will have the last laugh. We won't have Beemers but we'll have a lot of time to be outside and hike and bicycle which we both enjoy.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2014, 06:16:26 PM »
My closet can attest to the shopping demands of keeping up in the gay community.  I no longer buy such things often, but I have remnants from years gone by.  $85 pants, $30 shirts, $10 each for a single pair of underwear (actually cheap underwear in the gay community).  I am glad to have a financial support group to keep me away from such things.  Especially that new Ford Raptor that I should stop wanting.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2014, 06:27:21 PM »
I'm uncomfortable attributing consumerism to orientation, and in hearing others do so. Do we not see the same "keeping up with the Joneses", overconsumption, massive debtloads, mis-prioritizing, etc, in the straight community? My community is about 70/30 straight/queer and I'm not seeing a difference. I do see a difference in the closets of Mustachian/non-Mustachian people, regardless of orientation. Am I missing something?? I'm concerned about stereotyping (in any aspect of humanity).

mozar

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2014, 06:40:03 PM »
I don't think anyone is attributing consumerism to a particular orientation, but glbt people are targeted by advertising in different ways than straight people. So the gay Jones's have BMW's and the straight Jones's have, um, fill-in-the-blank.

kd2008

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2014, 06:58:17 PM »
I'm uncomfortable attributing consumerism to orientation, and in hearing others do so. Do we not see the same "keeping up with the Joneses", overconsumption, massive debtloads, mis-prioritizing, etc, in the straight community? My community is about 70/30 straight/queer and I'm not seeing a difference. I do see a difference in the closets of Mustachian/non-Mustachian people, regardless of orientation. Am I missing something?? I'm concerned about stereotyping (in any aspect of humanity).

It is subtly different. For someone lgbt in a big city, consumerism is expansive and general. Being a part of consumerism (or not) may be actively thought upon. If you are lgbt in a small town, and you may have a smaller cohort to be with, then consumerism may become a part of this small clique's identity, and peer pressure builds up to remain a part of it. Of course, you may outgrow it, but some do not.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2014, 10:50:20 PM »
Here's my gay two cents:  :-)

2. The LGBTTIAQQ* community has its own specific work issues as has been mentioned.  W're more likely to be discriminated against at work and passed over for promotions

5. In my opinion, speaking specifically about the gay male community, we face additional challenges due to consumerism and anti-mustachian motivations.  When marketing firms finally wised-up on the idea that single and coupled men without kids would have more money to spend, we started getting bombarded with advertising.  Here in Florida, it's not at all uncommon to find myself invited to a pool party with a $30 cover charge full of men drinking $12 cocktails, wearing $75 bathing suits, and $200 sunglasses.  We ate up that consumer message and - unfortunately - incorporated much of it into our community identity. 

*Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Two-Spirit (Native American classification), Intersexed, Allied, Queer, and Questioning

I always have to chuckle to myself when I see some variation of this: LGBTTIAQQ. How about one easy word to identify the community as a whole: Queer. That one word pretty much encompasses everything not heterosexual.

A friend of mine's parent (she used to be my friends father but is now her not-birth mother) runs a monthly dinner gathering for local LGBTTIAQQ people. She calls it Alphabet Soup. :)

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2014, 03:03:25 AM »
I think that yeah, it's likely a similar proportion of people as in the general populace, which probably makes it a real number on the small side, but I'm happy to see there are so many queer folk here as well. I always like knowing I'm not unique in a community in that regard!

So yep, count me as well. It doesn't STRICTLY come up in conversation much in a frugality context, but neither do I on the other hand feel the need or desire to self-censor and refer to my girlfriend as anything other than that.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2014, 08:40:22 AM »
I just joined this community recently.  I'm gay.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2014, 11:46:19 AM »
Here's my gay two cents:  :-)

2. The LGBTTIAQQ* community has its own specific work issues as has been mentioned.  W're more likely to be discriminated against at work and passed over for promotions

5. In my opinion, speaking specifically about the gay male community, we face additional challenges due to consumerism and anti-mustachian motivations.  When marketing firms finally wised-up on the idea that single and coupled men without kids would have more money to spend, we started getting bombarded with advertising.  Here in Florida, it's not at all uncommon to find myself invited to a pool party with a $30 cover charge full of men drinking $12 cocktails, wearing $75 bathing suits, and $200 sunglasses.  We ate up that consumer message and - unfortunately - incorporated much of it into our community identity. 

*Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Two-Spirit (Native American classification), Intersexed, Allied, Queer, and Questioning

I always have to chuckle to myself when I see some variation of this: LGBTTIAQQ. How about one easy word to identify the community as a whole: Queer. That one word pretty much encompasses everything not heterosexual.

A friend of mine's parent (she used to be my friends father but is now her not-birth mother) runs a monthly dinner gathering for local LGBTTIAQQ people. She calls it Alphabet Soup. :)

My group of friends calls it Alphabet Soup too :-) 

Tangent, I wish the catch-all term for the community wasn't queer as the root definition of the word is "odd" or "strange" and perpetuates ideas of otherness.  But jeepers rattling off all the letters can become cumbersome! :-)

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2014, 08:11:48 PM »
Tangent, I wish the catch-all term for the community wasn't queer as the root definition of the word is "odd" or "strange" and perpetuates ideas of otherness.  But jeepers rattling off all the letters can become cumbersome! :-)

This is true! But there are many words out there that have weird origins but are acceptable, vice versa as well. Take for example "fag" or "faggot". Quite harmless historically and still today in the UK (I have an old friend who uses it to refer to something that's dreary or boring). However, in the US and Canada its considered very offensive when referring to a gay person. At the end of the day it's all boils down to what you make of it.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2014, 12:54:25 PM »
Various people have started their own Google Groups to discuss other topics as well.

I want to put out there ...would anybody be interested in a social group online for LGBT related stuff to enable non-mustachian discussions. If allowed on the forum we could do it here. I don't know if a thread already exists.
kd2008, I'd politely ask you to reconsider. Mustachians are a pretty accepting group. Getting to FIRE is pretty orientation non-specific. Please stay and hang out with everyone. You're welcome here and we wouldn't want to miss any great input anyone came up with. Since we all have the same or similar goals, let's stick together and help each other out. Just my two cents.

I assumed (s)he meant for non-Mustachian topics, and they'd continue to use the forum for Mustachian topics.

Yes that is correct. Thanks! I will always come here for Mustachian advice! :)
I appreciate what you're saying. I just wanted to make sure that it was clear that everyone, whatever their color of the rainbow or letter of the alphabet, is welcome here.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2014, 01:47:24 PM »
I just wanted to make sure that it was clear that everyone, whatever their color of the rainbow or letter of the alphabet, is welcome here.

Can I get a letter of my own?  I want to feel included in the minority love, even though I'm a straight white dude who has spent his entire life enjoying the privileges of the patriarchy.

I'm open to suggestions.

On second thought, I guess that's what the A is for.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2014, 02:25:11 PM »
I didn't read all of the posts here so forgive me if someone else has already brought it up.

I personally don't care what persuasion you are.  I see no difference between being hetero, lesbian, gay, African American, Asian, Native American, First Nation, blue, green, purple or mauve fer cripes sake when it comes to Mustachianism.

There are perceived handicaps when one labels themselves and Mustachians rise above and go beyond any perceived handicaps to become free.  Be it age, sexual persuasion, gender, circumstances, childhood influences . . . we're all on this site to read and learn from eachother.

Appreciate one another please.  No labeling.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2014, 12:21:08 AM »
I didn't read all of the posts here so forgive me if someone else has already brought it up.

I personally don't care what persuasion you are.  I see no difference between being hetero, lesbian, gay, African American, Asian, Native American, First Nation, blue, green, purple or mauve fer cripes sake when it comes to Mustachianism.

There are perceived handicaps when one labels themselves and Mustachians rise above and go beyond any perceived handicaps to become free.  Be it age, sexual persuasion, gender, circumstances, childhood influences . . . we're all on this site to read and learn from eachother.

Appreciate one another please.  No labeling.
Okay, I'll do it: you're forgiven. I think when you make time to read all the comments, Miamoo, you'll be pleasantly surprised. No one is pointing any fingers or pasting labels on anyone else. Your concerns are appreciated, but so far, seem to be mostly unfounded on this thread.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2014, 08:19:13 PM »
I haven't seen much mention of it on here except for one post in the dating section that got zero response.  Is it rare for LGBT people to be Mustachian or am I just not noticing them?

I'm a lot of labels, most of which I have to keep carefully hidden at work. I've been open about my atheism and veganism at work. The former has caused serious friction with my extremely religiously conservative coworker, the latter just endless repetition of "I couldn't do that weird thing." Because said coworker is my senior, I've had concerns lately that I'm losing out on work due to her semi hidden dislike. So there is that financial effect.

Oh yeah. I'm straight but I'm a dominant sadistic (BDSM sense) polyamorous white cis-female who wouldn't mind dominating any gender or non gender if I clicked with them. Depends on what toys you're into to get your kink on, that could have another financial effect. Thankfully, my second partner/ "husband" is very carpentry inclined, so my spanking bench was very affordable with the help of a DIY book.

Other effects: I'm pretty sure I would have to straight up lie to foster-to-adopt. I'm pretty sure if either my poly or kink lifestyle came out to the right supervisor, I would be fired under the "morality clause." Because, you know, despite the 100% consent I receive, I'm abusing my partners and cheating on my husband.

I did go see "Her" this year because I heard it was poly friendly, so that was spending I wouldn't have otherwise done. And it was a disappointment too, because the A.I. was cheating on him, which isn't a poly relationship, even if she, the A.I., was poly herself. I've had to outright buy books regarding my interests, because the only poly books at the library are "Ethical Slut" and "Opening Up". BDSM non fiction is non existent at the library, so the BDSM DIY book had to be purchased with my funds rather than a borrow from the library.  Nothing but Cosmopolitan Smut and 50 Shades of Grey trash at the library is related to BDSM. Which, don't get me wrong, I enjoy a little trash on the rare occasion but it's all submissive females and dominant males. Just doesn't suit me.

Anyhow. Lots of different folks everywhere. Definitely some effects due to our differences, but nothing that should keep me too far off from FI so long as I completely closet myself and keep my mouth shut.

Makes me glad my differences aren't outwardly visible since I'd be more of a target. Hats off to those who can't hide so well.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #84 on: November 24, 2014, 06:06:21 PM »
Considering that this forum is almost entirely composed of either libertarians and liberal hippies, I don't think anyone here thinks it's that big of a deal if someone in this community is gay.  We are a very accepting bunch of people.  I wouldn't be surprised if the number of LGBT mustachians mirrors the general percentage of gays in society.  There really isn't anything about Mustachianism that would favor one orientation over another.

I would just like it duly noted that being either libertarian or liberal is not the only political designation to which people who are accepting of LGBT (and all the other letters) people are aligned. I am a proud conservative, Christian, Texas woman and I support marriage equality and just voted for my county to include sexual orientation to the list of protected classes with respect to the county's hiring and employment decisions.

So, please, just as others don't like it when they are pigeon holed based on race/sexual orientation/etc., conservatives (who sincerely do not have a problem with marriage equality or other similar social issues) don't like it when people assume all conservatives are evangelical, backwoods rednecks who open carry guns to Target or whatever.

Rant over.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #85 on: November 24, 2014, 07:52:25 PM »
It depends on if you are socially conservative or fiscally conservative. Socially conservative actually means pro "traditional marriage, life (anti-abortion), guns" but if you want to reclaim it as something else that's cool with me.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #86 on: November 24, 2014, 08:16:19 PM »
It depends on if you are socially conservative or fiscally conservative. Socially conservative actually means pro "traditional marriage, life (anti-abortion), guns" but if you want to reclaim it as something else that's cool with me.

I am fiscally conservative, more in the middle on social issues. For example, I believe you (the indefinite you) have the right to own a gun (the right to which is protected by our constitution), although personally I do not own one. I also believe you have the right to make your own choices with respect to abortion, however, I would not choose to have an abortion myself as I believe life begins at conception. I am incredibly saddened when others view abortion as a form of birth control, but they can exercise their own free will. It's not for me to judge. I believe in small government, individual responsibility, personal accountability and in capitalism. Does that cover it?

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #87 on: November 24, 2014, 09:19:39 PM »
Yeah, that's basically libertarian views almost verbatim kkbmustang.  That's not what conservatism is anymore.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2014, 10:03:06 PM »
Yeah, that's basically libertarian views almost verbatim kkbmustang.  That's not what conservatism is anymore.

Indeed.  Good views, btw.  ;)
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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2014, 10:53:39 PM »
Tangent, I wish the catch-all term for the community wasn't queer as the root definition of the word is "odd" or "strange" and perpetuates ideas of otherness.  But jeepers rattling off all the letters can become cumbersome! :-)

This is true! But there are many words out there that have weird origins but are acceptable, vice versa as well. Take for example "fag" or "faggot". Quite harmless historically and still today in the UK (I have an old friend who uses it to refer to something that's dreary or boring). However, in the US and Canada its considered very offensive when referring to a gay person. At the end of the day it's all boils down to what you make of it.

Really?  I am originally from the UK, and to me fag = cigarette, sometimes "tiring"  (as in, I am all fagged out)
Faggot is a meatball.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #90 on: November 25, 2014, 02:31:56 AM »
They both stem from the traditional boarding/residential school practice of "fagging" - apprenticing a new entrant student to a senior student to be their "fag" - their gopher, general dogs-body etc.

In the bad old days the duties of a fag would be to do *whatever* the senior student required.  Even when my mother was at boarding school (the 1960s), the attached boys' school practiced fagging.

I believe it probably stemmed from a noble desire to mentor and protect the younger boys, while providing leadership opportunities for the older boys, but actually created an environment where truly vile breaches of trust could occur with the official sanctioning of the school.

Hence "fag" could carry connotations of sodomy, due to abuse by older boys, and in time applied to all same-gender sexuality.  It also explains the "I'm all fagged out" being "tired" explanation - It's the equivalent of "slaved away all day and am had it".

Fag as in cigarette seems to have a different origin - perhaps tied to a faggot of wood, or 'flag', as in 'the rag end of something like cloth'.

Interestingly, 'faggot' as a perjorative term is of an unclear origin, as the practice of 'fagging' in schools never used that word - they were always referred to as 'fags'.  But 'Faggot' has been documented as an insult towards *women* back in the day - perhaps similar to the word "baggage"


Sorry, major derail there.  I'm a word/etymology obsessive and couldn't help myself!

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #91 on: November 25, 2014, 08:18:35 AM »
Lesbian here. I'm out here on the forums, but I tend to discuss queer issues in other spaces. Queer-specific conversations on this forum tend to attract more cis-hetero opinions than they do queer opinions.

I just wanted to make sure that it was clear that everyone, whatever their color of the rainbow or letter of the alphabet, is welcome here.

Can I get a letter of my own?  I want to feel included in the minority love, even though I'm a straight white dude who has spent his entire life enjoying the privileges of the patriarchy.

I'm open to suggestions.

On second thought, I guess that's what the A is for.

The "A" is actually for "asexual." I tend to think straight cis white dudes have enough special privileges that they can stand to be excluded from at least one club ;)

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #92 on: November 25, 2014, 09:01:09 AM »
Lesbian here. I'm out here on the forums, but I tend to discuss queer issues in other spaces. Queer-specific conversations on this forum tend to attract more cis-hetero opinions than they do queer opinions.

I just wanted to make sure that it was clear that everyone, whatever their color of the rainbow or letter of the alphabet, is welcome here.

Can I get a letter of my own?  I want to feel included in the minority love, even though I'm a straight white dude who has spent his entire life enjoying the privileges of the patriarchy.

I'm open to suggestions.

On second thought, I guess that's what the A is for.

The "A" is actually for "asexual." I tend to think straight cis white dudes have enough special privileges that they can stand to be excluded from at least one club ;)

Tangent again - Is anyone else troubled by the frequency of the use of "cis"?  I feel that it's just another tool to force a level of otherness on Trans people.  Saying I'm a cis-male implies that "I'm privileged to have started this way while Trans folks have to work at it" and throws my privilege immediately into the conversation.  Likewise, doggedly forcing Trans issues into yet another dichotomy implies that once a Trans person has transitioned, she or he isn't somehow fully the goal gender of the transition (presuming their intent was to transition into the cis-binary as there are many who don't aspire to that goal and are quite happy in their third or alternative gender identity).  I could also say that the cis designation subconsciously prizes the perceived authenticity of having been born with body and gender matching.  When, really, there's nothing at all inauthentic about the journey of a Trans person; it's just another path through life with different challenges.

Bringin' it back - We always think about Mustachianism in terms of FIRE but I would imagine offsetting the cost of hormones and reassignment surgeries might be a heck of a draw for Trans folks.  I want a house in the suburbs and a handy husband.  Maybe Bill wants his breasts removed and ready access to testosterone (and a house in the suburbs and a handy husband).  :-)

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #93 on: November 25, 2014, 10:21:43 AM »
Tangent again - Is anyone else troubled by the frequency of the use of "cis"?

No, but I am troubled by the frequency of cis-folks refusing to be called "cis." As a gender non-conforming person, I sure feel more welcome in communities where cis white dudes can accept the "cis" title without launching into a concern-trolling, mansplainy screed about how calling them "cis" somehow oppresses me.

Life is a rich tapestry!

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #94 on: November 25, 2014, 11:10:17 AM »
Yeah, that's basically libertarian views almost verbatim kkbmustang.  That's not what conservatism is anymore.

Indeed.  Good views, btw.  ;)

Really? Color me surprised. :)

And thanks, ARebelSpy. I like my views.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #95 on: November 25, 2014, 11:54:34 AM »
Tangent again - Is anyone else troubled by the frequency of the use of "cis"?

No, but I am troubled by the frequency of cis-folks refusing to be called "cis." As a gender non-conforming person, I sure feel more welcome in communities where cis white dudes can accept the "cis" title without launching into a concern-trolling, mansplainy screed about how calling them "cis" somehow oppresses me.

Life is a rich tapestry!

Well I guess that puts me in my place. 

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #96 on: November 25, 2014, 03:31:21 PM »
Bi mustachian here (really pan, but I normally identify as bi for the sake of simplicity)--just chiming in to be counted.  FWIW, the only other person I have met via the boards (other than MMM himself) was a bi mustachian as well (responding to an ad in the personals section).

sol

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #97 on: November 25, 2014, 03:56:32 PM »
The "A" is actually for "asexual." I tend to think straight cis white dudes have enough special privileges that they can stand to be excluded from at least one club ;)

According to the internet, and everything I've ever seen IRL, the A can also stand for "allied", and was included as a way of recognizing the contributions of people who support LGBT rights without themselves identifying as a minority. 

But if you want to exclude people who are fighting on your behalf, go right ahead. 

Guess who didn't get to vote to give women the right to vote.  Women!  Guess who didn't abolish slavery.  Black people!  All of these worthy movements need the eventual support of the "straight cis white dudes" you deride if they're going to be successful.  I just don't see the point of reflecting on hate with more hate.  When you're clearly "in the right" shouldn't you accept everyone who wants to get on board with your ideas?

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #98 on: November 25, 2014, 04:14:35 PM »
I identify as a queer cis-man. I believe the Money Mustache way essentially queers personal finance norms, questioning them, defying them, becoming willfully indifferent to them in pursuit of a better way of living. For me, queer sexuality goes beyond the bedroom and opens up the possibility to do all of those things to other social norms and conventions.

I appreciate hearing other LGBT folks are on here, and I'd be curious what you are doing with your capital in a cultural/social sense, especially if you happen not to have children.

I'm curious to hear if FIRE looks different somehow for LGBT folks.

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Re: Are there many LGBT Mustachians?
« Reply #99 on: November 25, 2014, 08:03:00 PM »
They both stem from the traditional boarding/residential school practice of "fagging" - apprenticing a new entrant student to a senior student to be their "fag" - their gopher, general dogs-body etc.

In the bad old days the duties of a fag would be to do *whatever* the senior student required.  Even when my mother was at boarding school (the 1960s), the attached boys' school practiced fagging.

I believe it probably stemmed from a noble desire to mentor and protect the younger boys, while providing leadership opportunities for the older boys, but actually created an environment where truly vile breaches of trust could occur with the official sanctioning of the school.

Hence "fag" could carry connotations of sodomy, due to abuse by older boys, and in time applied to all same-gender sexuality.  It also explains the "I'm all fagged out" being "tired" explanation - It's the equivalent of "slaved away all day and am had it".

Fag as in cigarette seems to have a different origin - perhaps tied to a faggot of wood, or 'flag', as in 'the rag end of something like cloth'.

Interestingly, 'faggot' as a perjorative term is of an unclear origin, as the practice of 'fagging' in schools never used that word - they were always referred to as 'fags'.  But 'Faggot' has been documented as an insult towards *women* back in the day - perhaps similar to the word "baggage"


Sorry, major derail there.  I'm a word/etymology obsessive and couldn't help myself!

I went to an English boarding school in the 80's, and we still had fagging, so, yes, am aware of that, but don't think it would translate to the Americans using fag as an insult.  Junior boys had to deliver papers/ shine shoes/ make tea etc on a roster.  It wasn't school sanctioned (it was officially banned) but school boys are very traditional...

(as an aside, a school boy study was the most communist/ egalitarian place I've been.  All property was communal property, and you would mess together.  We had a rich malaysian chinese in our study, so had an amazing sound system for the time...)