The Money Mustache Community

Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: WilliamWallace on October 14, 2016, 10:16:49 AM

Title: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: WilliamWallace on October 14, 2016, 10:16:49 AM
Not trying to get into a political debate, but the philosophy seems aligned with self-reliance and thereby smaller gov't.

Just curious if that's discussed and any thoughts on the matter.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: tonysemail on October 14, 2016, 10:20:27 AM
It seems to be a minority.  Taken from an old poll in 2013.
Feel free to make a new poll :)
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/(poll)-mustachian-political-voting/?viewresults

And a more recent thread-
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/who-else-here-is-a-libertarian/
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Kriegsspiel on October 14, 2016, 10:21:03 AM
I think the last census showed most are lefties.

As for your second question; all the goddamn time.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Jack on October 14, 2016, 10:27:20 AM
Most on this forum are far left from what i have read. MMM himself is basically a socialist.

I think the last census showed most are lefties.

You realize you've failed to answer the OP's question, right? "left" and "libertarian" are orthogonal concepts, and it's entirely possible to be both at the same time.

In other words, libertarianism is neither "right" nor "left" -- on that axis, it's centrist (if anything). It's only extremist on the libertarian - authoritarian scale.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: bacchi on October 14, 2016, 10:38:16 AM
Most on this forum are far left from what i have read. MMM himself is basically a socialist.

I think the last census showed most are lefties.

You realize you've failed to answer the OP's question, right? "left" and "libertarian" are orthogonal concepts, and it's entirely possible to be both at the same time.

In other words, libertarianism is neither "right" nor "left" -- on that axis, it's centrist (if anything). It's only extremist on the libertarian - authoritarian scale.

According to whose graph?
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: mozar on October 14, 2016, 11:03:35 AM
I'm not interested enough to look up the philosophy,  but I've always thought of libertarians as a sub group of conservatives. I don't know what mmm thinks about the government but bikes are a lefty cause. And he is Canadian born, which is not a country with pro-libertarian views. So I think lefty people are who he mostly appeals to. Anyways, you can also be self reliant and a lefty.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: dougules on October 14, 2016, 11:13:40 AM
I think there's a pretty big contingent of libertarians, but I think more of the folks on here are dirty liberal pink-o commies.  It's a pretty mixed bag really. 
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: meghan88 on October 14, 2016, 12:17:34 PM
I'm not interested enough to look up the philosophy,  but I've always thought of libertarians as a sub group of conservatives. I don't know what mmm thinks about the government but bikes are a lefty cause. And he is Canadian born, which is not a country with pro-libertarian views. So I think lefty people are who he mostly appeals to. Anyways, you can also be self reliant and a lefty.

Really?  How does a personal choice to get exercise and save lots of money make someone a lefty?  If bikes are a lefty cause, then what's a righty cause?  Large vehicles? Obesity? Payday loans?
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: ooeei on October 14, 2016, 12:20:18 PM
Most on this forum are far left from what i have read. MMM himself is basically a socialist.

I think the last census showed most are lefties.

You realize you've failed to answer the OP's question, right? "left" and "libertarian" are orthogonal concepts, and it's entirely possible to be both at the same time.

In other words, libertarianism is neither "right" nor "left" -- on that axis, it's centrist (if anything). It's only extremist on the libertarian - authoritarian scale.

According to whose graph?

https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

(https://www.politicalcompass.org/images/axeswithnames.gif)

Since political parties tend to use these words incorrectly at times, it gets tricky because it depends whose definition you use.  The explanation makes sense though:

Quote
If we recognise that this is essentially an economic line it's fine, as far as it goes. We can show, for example, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot, with their commitment to a totally controlled economy, on the hard left. Socialists like Mahatma Gandhi and Robert Mugabe would occupy a less extreme leftist position. Margaret Thatcher would be well over to the right, but further right still would be someone like that ultimate free marketeer, General Pinochet.

That deals with economics, but the social dimension is also important in politics. That's the one that the mere left-right scale doesn't adequately address. So we've added one, ranging in positions from extreme authoritarian to extreme libertarian.

Quote
Both an economic dimension and a social dimension are important factors for a proper political analysis. By adding the social dimension you can show that Stalin was an authoritarian leftist (ie the state is more important than the individual) and that Gandhi, believing in the supreme value of each individual, is a liberal leftist. While the former involves state-imposed arbitrary collectivism in the extreme top left, on the extreme bottom left is voluntary collectivism at regional level, with no state involved. Hundreds of such anarchist communities existed in Spain during the civil war period

Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Jack on October 14, 2016, 12:31:48 PM
I think there's a pretty big contingent of libertarians, but I think more of the folks on here are dirty liberal pink-o commies.  It's a pretty mixed bag really.

I suppose if you really need a pejorative term, the one that comes closest to describing those of us who are both "left" and libertarian is "hippies."
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: MoonLiteNite on October 14, 2016, 01:00:46 PM
Most on this forum are far left from what i have read. MMM himself is basically a socialist.

Agreed....

I am Libertarian/minarchist though :)


edit: and a note on the chart above, remember "left vs right" on a true political sense is more about how free eco policies are, it isn't being used as in right vs left that is used in the states.
If you draw a chart like that, both people like trump and hillary would be on the rightish side, and both would be high up, same for obama, bush, and most other recent leaders of the states.
Someone like Jill Stein is far left and slightly down, while people like Gary Johnson are middle right and far down (remember he supports a degree of welfare, and SS)
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: intirb on October 14, 2016, 01:35:45 PM
Libertarian is a bit of a regional word, and it means different things depending on what country you are living in.

In the US, libertarianism is largely considered to be a segment of the right, albeit with lefty social values.  It is more or less synonymous with anarcho-capitalism, which is itself a controversial term, or at least libertarian is considered a step on the spectrum towards ancap.

In Europe (and possibly elsewhere), libertarian usually means "left libertarian" and is more or less synonymous with the more traditional forms of anarchism of the "property is theft" variety.

I'm not interested in debating the merits of these definitions - semantics is hopelessly dull - but I just want to point out that different folks in this forum may interpret OP's question differently.

FWIW, I'm from the US but consider myself a left libertarian.  I see mustachianism as a practical and attainable means of escaping wage slavery within a capitalist system (which is not likely to be overthrown anytime soon), but unlike US libertarians/ancaps, I pretty much see capitalism as being just as oppressive as statism. 
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Jack on October 14, 2016, 01:48:16 PM
If you draw a chart like that, both people like trump and hillary would be on the rightish side, and both would be high up, same for obama, bush, and most other recent leaders of the states.
Someone like Jill Stein is far left and slightly down, while people like Gary Johnson are middle right and far down (remember he supports a degree of welfare, and SS)

(https://www.politicalcompass.org/images/us2016.png) (https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016)

In the US, libertarianism is largely considered to be a segment of the right, albeit with lefty social values.

Speaking one-dimensionally, that is exactly equivalent to characterizing it as "a segment of the left, albeit with righty economic values," which is why myopically trying to collapse economic policy and social policy down to one axis is stupid.

Unfortunately, the "hopelessly dull" semantics matter, in the sense that "largely considering" libertarian on the one-dimensional axis allows both the Democrats and Republicans to demonize it as extremist. That serves their purposes, since it limits the idea's ability to counter their (shared!) authoritarian agendas.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: intirb on October 14, 2016, 02:02:46 PM
In the US, libertarianism is largely considered to be a segment of the right, albeit with lefty social values.
Speaking one-dimensionally, that is exactly equivalent to characterizing it as "a segment of the left, albeit with righty economic values," which is why myopically trying to collapse economic policy and social policy down to one axis is stupid.

Unfortunately, the "hopelessly dull" semantics matter, in the sense that "largely considering" libertarian on the one-dimensional axis allows both the Democrats and Republicans to demonize it as extremist. That serves their purposes, since it limits the idea's ability to counter their (shared!) authoritarian agendas.

I feel like you've misunderstood much of what I wrote, so I just have some clarification points:

1.  I used "right" in the same way that your graphic uses "right", so in the US, Libertarians are appropriately considered a segment of the right - at least according to your own graphic.
2.  I'm not responsible for, nor defending, the two party system in the US and the resultant collapsing of a highly-dimensional political space onto a binary choice.
3.  When I say I'm not interesting in arguing about semantics, I just mean I'm not interested in arguing about which use of the word libertarian is the "correct" one.
4.  I'm just describing how terms are generally used/seen - not defending that position.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: obstinate on October 14, 2016, 02:27:56 PM
I sure am not. Me money mustache himself definitely isn't.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Gin1984 on October 14, 2016, 02:35:29 PM
I think there's a pretty big contingent of libertarians, but I think more of the folks on here are dirty liberal pink-o commies.  It's a pretty mixed bag really.

I suppose if you really need a pejorative term, the one that comes closest to describing those of us who are both "left" and libertarian is "hippies."
Not really, given the large sample set of old hippies from SF that I know.  None of them are libertarian. 
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Jack on October 14, 2016, 02:45:34 PM
4.  I'm just describing how terms are generally used/seen - not defending that position.

Sorry about that. I recognized that's what you were doing and intended to merely use your post as a jumping-off point, but I can see how my tone left the wrong impression.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: LeRainDrop on October 14, 2016, 02:56:12 PM
Here is the link to the current MMM presidential voting poll as between five choices -- Clinton, Trump, Johnson, Stein, and plan to abstain. (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/updated-poll-clinton-trump-stein-johnson/)  The current stats show:
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Roboturner on October 14, 2016, 03:05:55 PM
I think they probably should be, but it seems as though a lot aren't, I seem to remember a pretty strong contingent of MMM-ers that went from Bernie (Authoritarian-left) to Hillz (Authoritarian-right) 

I especially don't get it because a lot of the MMM posts are "dont be an idiot and think for yourself" that seems at odds with big-government to me

This is where I sit

(https://whatimg.com/i/Je66aW.png)
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Jack on October 14, 2016, 03:11:56 PM
I think they probably should be, but it seems as though a lot aren't, I seem to remember a pretty strong contingent of MMM-ers that went from Bernie (Authoritarian-left) to Hillz (Authoritarian-right) 

Bernie is not "authoritarian-left" (at least not in comparison to the other candidates).

(https://www.politicalcompass.org/images/usprimaries2016.png) (https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016)
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Roboturner on October 14, 2016, 03:19:22 PM
This is actually a pretty interesting read

https://jamessmith.liberty.me/ron-paul-is-right-bernie-sanders-is-an-authoritarian/

(https://whatimg.com/i/yaYIba.png)

Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 14, 2016, 06:08:45 PM
I consider myself libertarian, in that I prefer the minimum possible amount of central planning/control over both the economy and private life of me and everyone else.

The problem is that I think the minimum amount of governement is actually a LOT, especially in cases (health care, environmental protection, child/dependent welfare, etc) where market forces don't work particularly well to produce optimum outcomes. I also recognize that society itself is inherently a collective enterprise and we're all extremely inter/co-dependent at this point.

So I mostly freak out my libertarian friends when I say that I want fossil fuels taxed to death because the consequences have to be priced in and the market isn't doing it. Then they just call me a liberal/socialist. I prefer "sophisticated libertarian", but c'est la vie. The term has unfortunately come to mean near-religious faith that a free market solves every problem. We have plenty of evidence at this point that that's not true.

-W
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: woopwoop on October 14, 2016, 06:26:05 PM
Really?  How does a personal choice to get exercise and save lots of money make someone a lefty?  If bikes are a lefty cause, then what's a righty cause?  Large vehicles? Obesity? Payday loans?
I was curious so I went digging, and the answers are: yes, yes, couldn't find any studies.

"The CNW survey, which measured political affiliation not just by make but also by model, found that a Jeep Grand Cherokee S.U.V. was more than half again as likely to be bought by a Republican than by a Democrat, at 46 percent to 28. Among Hummer buyers, the Republican-to-Democrat ratio was a whopping 52 to 23.
According to CNW's figures, staunch Democrats drive S.U.V.'s too, but they tend to prefer smaller, foreign-made ones. Republicans generally like them bigger and American-made, or at least bearing the name of an American company, even if they were built elsewhere."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/01/automobiles/your-car-politics-on-wheels.html?_r=0

"we found that higher county-level obesity prevalence rates were associated with higher levels of support for the 2012 Republican Party presidential candidate."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091743513003046
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: wenchsenior on October 14, 2016, 07:56:19 PM
Really?  How does a personal choice to get exercise and save lots of money make someone a lefty?  If bikes are a lefty cause, then what's a righty cause?  Large vehicles? Obesity? Payday loans?
I was curious so I went digging, and the answers are: yes, yes, couldn't find any studies.

"The CNW survey, which measured political affiliation not just by make but also by model, found that a Jeep Grand Cherokee S.U.V. was more than half again as likely to be bought by a Republican than by a Democrat, at 46 percent to 28. Among Hummer buyers, the Republican-to-Democrat ratio was a whopping 52 to 23.
According to CNW's figures, staunch Democrats drive S.U.V.'s too, but they tend to prefer smaller, foreign-made ones. Republicans generally like them bigger and American-made, or at least bearing the name of an American company, even if they were built elsewhere."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/01/automobiles/your-car-politics-on-wheels.html?_r=0

"we found that higher county-level obesity prevalence rates were associated with higher levels of support for the 2012 Republican Party presidential candidate."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091743513003046

The Big Sort by Bill Bishop has some fascinating cultural associations with voting patterns. For example, (the typical) conservative is far more likely to treat their lawn with chemicals than (a typical) liberal; the two groups watch different tv shows; liberals do yoga/conservatives do not; the two groups drive different kinds of cars; they put emphases in different areas re: child rearing (conservatives more focused on self-discipline and manners,  liberals more on self-actualization of the kid),and on and on...very interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: MoonLiteNite on October 15, 2016, 01:46:08 AM
I think they probably should be, but it seems as though a lot aren't, I seem to remember a pretty strong contingent of MMM-ers that went from Bernie (Authoritarian-left) to Hillz (Authoritarian-right) 

Bernie is not "authoritarian-left" (at least not in comparison to the other candidates).

(https://www.politicalcompass.org/images/usprimaries2016.png) (https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016)

I think an issue alot of libertarians have with bernie is he may not be all that authoritarian, what is is for is higher taxes, and more control for the state on the money side of things. Which is HUGE witih alot of people. Alot more than say an issue like legal pot, or gay marriage, or forcing kids to get their shots. They all have the same grounds as being authoritarian, but most people end up weighing the tax thing against bernie very high.

I personally would fully support him, his ideas and believes are GREAT. But sadly, he wants to fund them through theft and force.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Davids on October 15, 2016, 06:04:55 AM
I am one of the rare Republican Mustachian's. Yes I get how Obamacare benefits those in FIRE but overall I still hate it as it hurts a lot more people in order to help a few.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: mohawkbrah on October 15, 2016, 01:03:29 PM
From looking at the charts posted im an extreme libertarian mostly because i dislike government control and want to do what i want. For example. I want to be able to build a house on the land i own without the government giving me "permission" for it.

im also a frequent visitor of the "UK hippy" forum and constantly looking at ways of alternative living to get away from being controlled by others  like off grid living, but then realising that i live in the UK ad there's no escaping the toffee nose jobworths that live to make your life impossible(recently been looking at living at sea)
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Classical_Liberal on October 15, 2016, 02:31:36 PM
From looking at the charts posted im an extreme libertarian mostly because i dislike government control and want to do what i want. For example. I want to be able to build a house on the land i own without the government giving me "permission" for it.

im also a frequent visitor of the "UK hippy" forum and constantly looking at ways of alternative living to get away from being controlled by others  like off grid living, but then realising that i live in the UK ad there's no escaping the toffee nose jobworths that live to make your life impossible(recently been looking at living at sea)

I've often thought "socialist hippies" and "libertarian anarchists" have much more in common with each other than to either of the modern US political parties.  If there is ever a collapse of one (like maybe with the total fracturing of the repubs lately) which is replaced or a third party that starts gaining some traction by grabbing a few seats in the house or senate to impact with swing votes, it will likely be a coalition of these two ideologies.

Personally, I like as minimal gov't intervention as possible.  However, if I had to choose between forfeiting some economic rights (ie higher taxes for potential individual lose, but net group gain) or my social freedoms (do whatever the hell I want as long as i'm not hurting others), I'd choose the former. My reasoning is two fold.  First, the US is already a very free market compared to the rest of the developed world. We already have a big economic advantage and there is probably some "give" in which we can keep that advantage. Second, our current system of economic regulation is flawed (as most economic regulation is) and has allowed substantial cronyism to corrupt the market. I realize more regulation would likely worsen that problem, but more of the "right" regulation, under the "right" leadership could transfer the cronyism inefficiencies into mere bureaucratic inefficiencies.  This could, in theory, create no net loss to overall economy, while positively impacting the lower 90 percent of the economic scale and the upper 10 percent that isn't "cheating" with cronyism.   The "losers" would only be those currently gaming the system.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: MoonLiteNite on October 15, 2016, 02:57:51 PM
I am one of the rare Republican Mustachian's. Yes I get how Obamacare benefits those in FIRE but overall I still hate it as it hurts a lot more people in order to help a few.

Even if it hurt less people to help more, it is still using force and harming someone against their will :(
To me it is  so strange how  anyone can support something when you take money from someone else with force, in the time of charity.

Awesome video i use to share others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ne16Le-hq4
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Spork on October 15, 2016, 03:04:08 PM
From looking at the charts posted im an extreme libertarian mostly because i dislike government control and want to do what i want. For example. I want to be able to build a house on the land i own without the government giving me "permission" for it.

I don't pretend to know how things work in the UK... but in the US this is almost entirely possible.  We had one and only one permit for our house and that was for the septic system.  Nothing else required "permission." 
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: JLee on October 15, 2016, 03:11:28 PM
I am one of the rare Republican Mustachian's. Yes I get how Obamacare benefits those in FIRE but overall I still hate it as it hurts a lot more people in order to help a few.

Even if it hurt less people to help more, it is still using force and harming someone against their will :(
To me it is  so strange how  anyone can support something when you take money from someone else with force, in the time of charity.

Awesome video i use to share others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ne16Le-hq4

How do you 'taxation is theft by force' people think a country would survive without taxation? By the immense generosity of the wealthy?
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 15, 2016, 03:46:23 PM
Taxation isn't theft, because being a US citizen is (at least as an adult, when you actually pay taxes) *voluntary*.

It's like being in a club and being required to kick in money to rent space for a party - while you might not want to go to the party, or kick in the money - your only real option is to quit the club or else convince everyone else the party is a dumb idea. The club isn't stealing anything from you by requiring you to kick in for club activities, just like the United States (or wherever you reside) isn't stealing your taxes from you. You always have the option to renounce your citizenship and move elsewhere.

You might not like your non-US options, but that doesn't mean being a citizen, and paying your taxes as part of the deal, is theft.

That kind of language and simplistic thinking is something I really dislike about other libertarians.

-W
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: sol on October 15, 2016, 04:28:56 PM
I think the libertarian party has tried to adopt some ideas that otherwise have wide support among regular democrats and republicans, like curtailing the war on drugs, but hasn't done a very good job of articulating why those good ideas require a third party to implement.  Like any old regular democrat can agree that the war on drugs was a failed experiment, and that mandatory minimum sentences were racially motivated and discriminatory.

And the rest of the libertarian party platform is wildly UNpopular, so even those people who are seduced by ideas like decriminalizing marijuana rapidly figure out that they don't want to actually vote for people who want to abolish the EPA or who think it's perfectly okay for a business to refuse service to people based on their race or sexuality.  Most Americans WANT their government to protect the environment and clamp down on open bigotry.

At some point in the next few elections, we'll start seeing candidates who are freed up from the old restrictions of dem/rep party platforms, and can actually advocate for the mixture of traditionally liberal and conservative ideas that most people support.  A wide majority of Americans want infrastructure spending and a strong military and a balanced budget, and higher taxes on the super wealthy to pay for it all.  I think we're already seeing this sort of party dissolution in people like Trump, who is on both sides of the abortion debate and agrees with Bernie Sanders (erroneously IMO) on trade deals and who has openly supported gay marriage, universal health care, gun control, and raising taxes, and yet still attracts droves of conservative voters.  And droves of evangelical voters despite being on his third marriage.  And droves of wealthy business voters despite having declared multiple bankruptcies.  The old alignments just don't seem to matter so much this time around.

Clinton's not much better, in that respect.  She championed universal health care in the 90s and then totally sold out to the insurance industry when she voted for Obamacare.  She wants to be the progressive candidate of the future, but she's basically Dick Cheney 2.0 when it comes to foreign policy. 

So with so many crossover voters motivated by single issues that seem to strip them away from their old party alignments, I think there's room for either (or even both) parties to float future candidates that completely outrage their traditional constituencies.  Marco Rubio could run in 2016 on a the idea of granting amnesty to every single illegal immigrant as part of broad immigration reform, for example.  Julian Castro could run on school voucher reform to transfer public funding to christian schools, with strong outreach to religious communities.

It could be an interesting couple of decades in American politics.  I'm really looking forward to the post-election analysis of how and why the GOP struggled so much this time around, and their plan for moving forward.  Historically, dramatic party defeats have often been followed by equally dramatic comebacks in the very next presidential election, so maybe they'll figure something out.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: MoonLiteNite on October 15, 2016, 05:29:28 PM

How do you 'taxation is theft by force' people think a country would survive without taxation? By the immense generosity of the wealthy?

The way it did for the first 200 years of the country...
Federal taxes in USA is kinda new, it has only been around for the last 80 years or so.
The only federal tax before that was a tax on smokes and alcohol, but even those were turned on and off in times of war and peace.

Most things that people believe "we need government for" are all already being done a private level, it just depends if you as a consumer want to be taxed, AND pay for a better service.
Like i pay a private EMS, and fire company. I am my own protection, a cop will NEVER get to your house while you are being robbed. My road is paid for by the people who live on the road, we refuse to let the city take ownership of it, SS and medical care would also be handled better BY the person, which i do, i just ALSO have to pay a tax because i do not protect myself enough?
Image what you could do, if you had all your SS money, and medicare money that you have had taken from you over the years. I personally have paid in over 100,000$. If i had that money, all my federal income tax money, handed back to me, i could retire right now, at the age of 30. And go out and volunteer and do what i love doing. But instead, i have to work for another 7-15 years and put off helping others as much as i would like.

And one final note, if you are online, you are wealthy, if you drive in a magical box (hahaha i cant believe i am saying this on MMM forum) that can drive you 300 miles at 70mph, you are wealthy, you are in the top 1% of people of the world.

edit:
And MOST libertarians are not 100% for removing government and all that, at least those that do support it understand it won't happen over night. That is why Gary Johnson is running, he is the least libertarian libertarian that there is. The biggest, tax change he could do would be to push for fairtax, which is still a tax, just another forum, that actually would be HUGE and great frugal people, because you are taxed when you spend, not when you earn.



Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: intirb on October 15, 2016, 05:32:46 PM

Clinton's not much better, in that respect.  She championed universal health care in the 90s and then totally sold out to the insurance industry when she voted for Obamacare. 


Clinton voted for Obamacare?  I don't think cabinet members get to vote on pieces of legislation..
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: meghan88 on October 15, 2016, 05:36:34 PM
As an outside observer on the U.S. election, the one question that continues to boggle my mind this time around is that out of a country of 342,700+ people, it boils down to one of those two to lead it?  I agree with Sol that U.S. politics are in for an interesting few decades.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: MoonLiteNite on October 15, 2016, 05:42:33 PM
As an outside observer on the U.S. election, the one question that continues to boggle my mind this time around is that out of a country of 342,700+ people, it boils down to one of those two to lead it?  I agree with Sol that U.S. politics are in for an interesting few decades.

That is one of the huge problems, it isn't just those 2, there are 6 people running, 3 of which could win every state (gary johnson), and a 4th (jill stien) who could more than 1/2 the states.

But the way media has worked out people haven't really seen a 3rd party since 1992 when the media, GOP and DEM made it HARDER for a 3rd party to be put into "the debates". The good thing now is the internet is catching up, and as younger people who use the internet can see these other options, the other options are growing, and fast. Hopefully by next year Libertarian party will be able to hit the 30% and it will be a 3 way race!
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: newelljack on October 15, 2016, 06:09:13 PM
Taxation isn't theft, because being a US citizen is (at least as an adult, when you actually pay taxes) *voluntary*.

It's like being in a club and being required to kick in money to rent space for a party - while you might not want to go to the party, or kick in the money - your only real option is to quit the club or else convince everyone else the party is a dumb idea. The club isn't stealing anything from you by requiring you to kick in for club activities, just like the United States (or wherever you reside) isn't stealing your taxes from you. You always have the option to renounce your citizenship and move elsewhere.

You might not like your non-US options, but that doesn't mean being a citizen, and paying your taxes as part of the deal, is theft.

That kind of language and simplistic thinking is something I really dislike about other libertarians.

-W

In that analogy, I see the ACA as the club choosing to make the party an open bar instead of BYOB. But it's like an open bar at a wedding and they only have certain drinks and the designated driver doesn't get a free soda.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: JLee on October 15, 2016, 06:20:08 PM

How do you 'taxation is theft by force' people think a country would survive without taxation? By the immense generosity of the wealthy?

The way it did for the first 200 years of the country...
Federal taxes in USA is kinda new, it has only been around for the last 80 years or so.
The only federal tax before that was a tax on smokes and alcohol, but even those were turned on and off in times of war and peace.

Most things that people believe "we need government for" are all already being done a private level, it just depends if you as a consumer want to be taxed, AND pay for a better service.
Like i pay a private EMS, and fire company. I am my own protection, a cop will NEVER get to your house while you are being robbed. My road is paid for by the people who live on the road, we refuse to let the city take ownership of it, SS and medical care would also be handled better BY the person, which i do, i just ALSO have to pay a tax because i do not protect myself enough?
Image what you could do, if you had all your SS money, and medicare money that you have had taken from you over the years. I personally have paid in over 100,000$. If i had that money, all my federal income tax money, handed back to me, i could retire right now, at the age of 30. And go out and volunteer and do what i love doing. But instead, i have to work for another 7-15 years and put off helping others as much as i would like.

And one final note, if you are online, you are wealthy, if you drive in a magical box (hahaha i cant believe i am saying this on MMM forum) that can drive you 300 miles at 70mph, you are wealthy, you are in the top 1% of people of the world.

edit:
And MOST libertarians are not 100% for removing government and all that, at least those that do support it understand it won't happen over night. That is why Gary Johnson is running, he is the least libertarian libertarian that there is. The biggest, tax change he could do would be to push for fairtax, which is still a tax, just another forum, that actually would be HUGE and great frugal people, because you are taxed when you spend, not when you earn.

If by 80 years ago you mean 1913, then you're correct. I don't want to live in 200-year-ago America. Do you?

An income of $32,400 puts you in the global 1%. That's not a lot, but it's certainly possible to have internet access and a car at that income level.

If you have paid over $100k in FICA taxes, you've earned roughly $1.3 million. Presuming that's over the last 12 years, you're averaging $108k/year from the age of 18.  If you need another 15 years to retire, you may want to post a case study and figure out where all your money is going.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 15, 2016, 07:01:15 PM
In that analogy, I see the ACA as the club choosing to make the party an open bar instead of BYOB. But it's like an open bar at a wedding and they only have certain drinks and the designated driver doesn't get a free soda.

Sure, but that doesn't matter. You chose to join the club (or in the case of the USA, chose to stay in it). So nothing is being stolen from you. You can advocate for lower taxes, but calling taxation theft undercuts your other legitimate arguments.

-W
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: newelljack on October 15, 2016, 07:22:02 PM
In that analogy, I see the ACA as the club choosing to make the party an open bar instead of BYOB. But it's like an open bar at a wedding and they only have certain drinks and the designated driver doesn't get a free soda.

Sure, but that doesn't matter. You chose to join the club (or in the case of the USA, chose to stay in it). So nothing is being stolen from you. You can advocate for lower taxes, but calling taxation theft undercuts your other legitimate arguments.

-W
Just having some fun with it. Taxes pay my salary. I'd be more interested in making sure the right people were getting the money with as little waste and fraud as possible. I think that is what turns so many people off on taxes, watching their money go to waste. I do think corruption is much lower in the US than some countries, but does there HAVE to be any?
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: MoonLiteNite on October 15, 2016, 07:24:18 PM
In that analogy, I see the ACA as the club choosing to make the party an open bar instead of BYOB. But it's like an open bar at a wedding and they only have certain drinks and the designated driver doesn't get a free soda.

Sure, but that doesn't matter. You chose to join the club (or in the case of the USA, chose to stay in it). So nothing is being stolen from you. You can advocate for lower taxes, but calling taxation theft undercuts your other legitimate arguments.

-W

Ummm i did not even choose to join the club, or BYOB, andi am being forced to pitch in for the keg....
And back to english :D
I do not have health care, and i am being forced to pay in as a "Fee"to help everyone else. And if i do not pay that fee, someone with a gun will come to my house and use force and his gun to lock me in a cage. And if i try and defend myself, i will be murdered.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: MoonLiteNite on October 15, 2016, 07:26:57 PM
If you need another 15 years to retire, you may want to post a case study and figure out where all your money is going.
It doesn't matter where it is going, as long as i am not harming anyone with it.
That is my own choice, and should be yours and everyone else's. People on here are choosing to try and become FI, or kept out of debt or RE or whatever. And that is great.

Where i do know over 100,000$ has gone, is to someone else who took it from me with force.

Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: JLee on October 15, 2016, 07:27:26 PM
In that analogy, I see the ACA as the club choosing to make the party an open bar instead of BYOB. But it's like an open bar at a wedding and they only have certain drinks and the designated driver doesn't get a free soda.

Sure, but that doesn't matter. You chose to join the club (or in the case of the USA, chose to stay in it). So nothing is being stolen from you. You can advocate for lower taxes, but calling taxation theft undercuts your other legitimate arguments.

-W

Ummm i did not even choose to join the club, or BYOB, andi am being forced to pitch in for the keg....
And back to english :D
I do not have health care, and i am being forced to pay in as a "Fee"to help everyone else. And if i do not pay that fee, someone with a gun will come to my house and use force and his gun to lock me in a cage. And if i try and defend myself, i will be murdered.

Perhaps you should move to Qatar.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: MoonLiteNite on October 15, 2016, 07:37:04 PM
Perhaps you should move to Qatar.

Ummm qatar uses alot of violence and force on their *meaning ownership* people, which is what libertarians are strongly against... so that is a bad idea.


edit:
And say qatar was a free country where people are not forced to pay to help each other.  Or stripped of their rights based on gender or what they are attracted to. That doesn't mean other countries can't copy their freedom way of living, and everyone who lives in a country where they are being harmed and stolen from should HAVE to leave. Being free should be the normal, not having to escape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fasTSY-dB-s
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Telecaster on October 15, 2016, 07:38:52 PM
I think there's a pretty big contingent of libertarians, but I think more of the folks on here are dirty liberal pink-o commies.  It's a pretty mixed bag really.

I suppose if you really need a pejorative term, the one that comes closest to describing those of us who are both "left" and libertarian is "hippies."

I like to use the term "dirty hippies."
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Goose A. Doose on October 15, 2016, 07:54:39 PM
Im as libertarian as it gets.  Far right constitutionalist without thw wars and religion. Huge garden, chickens, rabbits, hunts, fishes, diesel truck, hot rods, bicycles, self reliant, land in the country etc.  Let me have flat tax and gun silencers and ill let you have an abortion, dont care just dont want me or my kids to pay for it..  Close the post office, abolish the irs, defund the epa  If youve ever taken a dime of gov assistance youre out of my circle. 

This board is made up of half capitalists that provide most of the usefull business content and half lefties democrat progressive scum that think the "badass" section is for switching from paper bags to a reusable bag with a tree printed on it.  MOD NOTE: If you think 1/2 the forum members are "scum" you may wany to find another community to meet your needs/be an echo chamber for your views.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: JLee on October 15, 2016, 08:00:49 PM
Im as libertarian as it gets.  Far right constitutionalist without thw wars and religion. Huge garden, chickens, rabbits, hunts, fishes, diesel truck, hot rods, bicycles, self reliant, land in the country etc.  Let me have flat tax and gun silencers and ill let you have an abortion, dont care just dont want me or my kids to pay for it..  Close the post office, abolish the irs, defund the epa  If youve ever taken a dime of gov assistance youre out of my circle. 

This board is made up of half capitalists that provide most of the usefull business content and half lefties democrat progressive scum that think the "badass" section is for switching from paper bags to a reusable bag with a tree printed on it.

Forum rule #1.

I'm glad there aren't enough people to push a complete libertarian agenda.  A flat tax is incredibly regressive (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/05/26/the-flat-tax-falls-flat-for-good-reasons/?utm_term=.caf87c05298c).  I've not taken government assistance other than grants for college - but I don't want to be in your egotistical fuck-everyone-else circle anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: MoonLiteNite on October 15, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
I do not believe flat tax is something libertarians want.

A true one would want no taxes, but a minarchist type would want something more along the lines of what we already have, without all the rebates and loopholes, or they would want the fairtax.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: LeRainDrop on October 15, 2016, 08:13:43 PM
This board is made up of half capitalists that provide most of the usefull business content and half lefties democrat progressive scum that think the "badass" section is for switching from paper bags to a reusable bag with a tree printed on it.

Uh, welcome to our community.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Telecaster on October 15, 2016, 08:15:15 PM
This board is made up of half capitalists that provide most of the usefull business content and half lefties democrat progressive scum that think the "badass" section is for switching from paper bags to a reusable bag with a tree printed on it.

That's Mr. democrat progressive scum to you. 
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: sol on October 15, 2016, 08:17:49 PM
Perhaps you should move to Qatar.

Ummm qatar uses alot of violence and force on their *meaning ownership* people, which is what libertarians are strongly against... so that is a bad idea.

I think you may have missed the point here, Moony.   JLee was trying to highlight that nobody is forcing you to live in America.  In fact, you are freeloading off of other Americans by being here, using our military to defend your property, our EPA to provide you clean air and water, our DOT to build the roads you use.  You have chosen to receive these benefits, and now you are claiming "theft" when you are asked to help pay for things you have taken?  Did you get a public education?  Do you use the internet?

You have a pretty messed up idea about what constitutes theft.  When you take all of these things from America and then refuse to pay for them, YOU are the thief.

It is your choice to live in America.  The rest of us have fought and died to defend your freedom to make that choice, or to choose to live anywhere else you like.  You are not forced to live here, and nobody with a gun will come to your house and lock you in a cage for it.  But living here comes with a social contract that says if you live here AND make more than the average salary as personal profit from all of the things that America has provided you, then you are expected to repay America for some of the things you have taken and enjoyed.  If you come here and don't profit, you get to enjoy those things for free.

You wouldn't walk into the greatest restaurant on Earth and eat a big meal, then cry "theft" when your waiter delivers the bill, would you?  You are no more entitled to steal that meal from that great restaurant than you are to steal from America and then refuse to pay taxes.  Your sense of entitlement is pretty disappointing, as if you think all of the benefits that Americans have bought with their blood sweat and tears are somehow your god-given right.  You can do your part, or you can go elsewhere, but you can't dine in this fine establishment if you're going to refuse the tab.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: JLee on October 15, 2016, 08:20:59 PM
Perhaps you should move to Qatar.

Ummm qatar uses alot of violence and force on their *meaning ownership* people, which is what libertarians are strongly against... so that is a bad idea.

I think you may have missed the point here, Moony.   JLee was trying to highlight that nobody is forcing you to live in America.  In fact, you are freeloading off of other Americans by being here, using our military to defend your property, our EPA to provide you clean air and water, our DOT to build the roads you use.  You have chosen to receive these benefits, and now you are claiming "theft" when you are asked to help pay for things you have taken?  Did you get a public education?  Do you use the internet?

You have a pretty messed up idea about what constitutes theft.  When you take all of these things from America and then refuse to pay for them, YOU are the thief.

It is your choice to live in America.  The rest of us have fought and died to defend your freedom to make that choice, or to choose to live anywhere else you like.  You are not forced to live here, and nobody with a gun will come to your house and lock you in a cage for it.  But living here comes with a social contract that says if you live here AND make more than the average salary as personal profit from all of the things that America has provided you, then you are expected to repay America for some of the things you have taken and enjoyed.  If you come here and don't profit, you get to enjoy those things for free.

You wouldn't walk into the greatest restaurant on Earth and eat a big meal, then cry "theft" when your waiter delivers the bill, would you?  You are no more entitled to steal that meal from that great restaurant than you are to steal from America and then refuse to pay taxes.  Your sense of entitlement is pretty disappointing, as if you think all of the benefits that Americans have bought with their blood sweat and tears are somehow your god-given right.  You can do your part, or you can go elsewhere, but you can't dine in this fine establishment if you're going to refuse the tab.

Well said.

Qatar has no personal income tax, so the suggestion seemed appropriate. :)
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 15, 2016, 09:00:46 PM
Well said, Sol.

Again, you can disagree with the policies of the United States. I certainly disagree with many of them. But I feel the benefits of living here and paying taxes/being a citizen FAR outweigh the costs, so I happily pay my taxes and fund many things I don't like - along with many things I do. I vote and advocate for policies I like and against those I don't, but I would never call the portion of my taxes that goes to, say, ethanol subsidies "theft" because I have a choice - I can leave and live in another country with policies I like more and never have to fund that again.

You choose to stay in/join our club, you play by club rules (though you get a say in changing them). It's totally voluntary and it's not in any way coerced or unfair.

Anything voluntary cannot be theft. Full stop. Do not use that word in this context if you want to be taken seriously.

-W
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: LeRainDrop on October 15, 2016, 09:07:52 PM
+1 to sol and waltworks --> social contract / voluntary citizenship / benefits outweigh the costs
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: bacchi on October 16, 2016, 12:49:36 AM
Im as libertarian as it gets.  Far right constitutionalist without thw wars and religion. Huge garden, chickens, rabbits, hunts, fishes, diesel truck, hot rods, bicycles, self reliant, land in the country etc.  Let me have flat tax

Damn commie hippies are even co-opting the word "libertarian." Political correctness run amok.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: MoonLiteNite on October 16, 2016, 02:43:30 AM
Qatar has no personal income tax, so the suggestion seemed appropriate. :)

Libertarianism is far from just about taxes... that is just one tiny drop of the bucket....
Just one other aspect that someone is controling over your life and your personal freedom. Just like with pot, gay marriage, guns, forced heath care, and income tax, just one of the many many things.

Qatar is one actually one of the WORST countries in the world for personal freedom.


Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 16, 2016, 08:56:01 AM
Yeah, darn that Obama making me get gay married.

Wait, what?

That kind of dumbassery is why nobody takes libertarians seriously. And you still didn't explain why you aren't leaving for greener pastures.

-W
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: ender on October 16, 2016, 09:21:38 AM
+1 to sol and waltworks --> social contract / voluntary citizenship / benefits outweigh the costs

Keep in mind that the voluntary citizenship aspect is pretty much a limited thing for many people. There are a lot of people who have minimal ability to actually leave the country.

I find this argument to be a bit naive at best.

It's kind of like saying, "you can buy a million dollar estate if you want, no one's stopping you." While it might be technically true, ignoring the practical considerations required to get that result seems a bit disingenuous.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 16, 2016, 09:31:43 AM
Pretty much anyone posting here could quite easily afford it, though.

Most self-identified libertarians are at least wealthy enough to be 19 year old undergrads reading Ayn Rand for the first time. :)

Seriously, it doesn't cost much to leave the US (even on a plane). With a tiny bit of shopping around you can fly basically anywhere on earth for $1500 or so. Where you'd go is another question, but the leaving part is darn easy. I guess you could make some sort of argument that nation-states (ie, collectivist enterprises of various types) have taken over all the viable land on the globe and hence there's nowhere truly free to go.

To which I'd say: that's probably true. But there are certainly places where government is minimal if not nonexistent that you can live. You might not like those places, and if that's the case, you should look long and hard about your assumptions about how much government is ideal.

-W

Keep in mind that the voluntary citizenship aspect is pretty much a limited thing for many people. There are a lot of people who have minimal ability to actually leave the country.

I find this argument to be a bit naive at best.

It's kind of like saying, "you can buy a million dollar estate if you want, no one's stopping you." While it might be technically true, ignoring the practical considerations required to get that result seems a bit disingenuous.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: sol on October 16, 2016, 09:52:23 AM
+1 to sol and waltworks --> social contract / voluntary citizenship / benefits outweigh the costs

Keep in mind that the voluntary citizenship aspect is pretty much a limited thing for many people. There are a lot of people who have minimal ability to actually leave the country.

I find this argument to be a bit naive at best.

It's kind of like saying, "you can buy a million dollar estate if you want, no one's stopping you." While it might be technically true, ignoring the practical considerations required to get that result seems a bit disingenuous.

Fortunately, all of the people who are too poor to be able to leave the country, also have zero income tax liability!  It's a libertarian dreamland!

It's, it's almost like it was designed that way or something.  Though to hear the libertarians in this thread say it, a flat tax would somehow be preferable to this arrangement.  Apparently they want to prevent people from being able to escape the boot heel of American oppressive taxation.

And let's not forget that walking to Canada and Mexico is totally free.  Unless you use some of those public roads that you refuse to pay for in order to get there, then you're stealing from America again.  I'm sure Moony will find some way to argue that he is being robbed blind if he freely walks across the border on US infrastructure.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 16, 2016, 10:49:19 AM
Pwned by Sol again (I mean me, with my much less cleverly written response)! Yikes.

-W
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: ender on October 16, 2016, 12:11:54 PM
Fortunately, all of the people who are too poor to be able to leave the country, also have zero income tax liability!  It's a libertarian dreamland!

It's, it's almost like it was designed that way or something.  Though to hear the libertarians in this thread say it, a flat tax would somehow be preferable to this arrangement.  Apparently they want to prevent people from being able to escape the boot heel of American oppressive taxation.

And let's not forget that walking to Canada and Mexico is totally free.  Unless you use some of those public roads that you refuse to pay for in order to get there, then you're stealing from America again.  I'm sure Moony will find some way to argue that he is being robbed blind if he freely walks across the border on US infrastructure.

... ? This feels like a rant against a position I never took.

Or maybe I misunderstand. Is the implied voluntary "social contract" argument only relevant for those paying into the system? And anyone who is net benefiting is not subject to the same thing, where they are voluntarily choosing to participate? Are those people unwilling participants against their will?

If anything, your response boils down to the idea that "if you're too poor you can't leave our system and that's ok and by design since you profit from it" which I find... a bit difficult of a position to support. Particularly if it's made as a piece of  some "social contract" or "voluntary citizenship" argument.

Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 16, 2016, 12:46:44 PM
Dude, stop. Sol completely destroyed both parts of your argument - if you're poor, you're already paying no income taxes, so at least from an economic perspective, this is a libertarian paradise. And yes, you can afford to leave even if you have zero. People walk across borders all the time, often traveling thousands of miles to do it.

Citizenship is a voluntary contract. It might take you some effort to get out of it, but you can do it even without any money at your disposal. You just can't occupy the land owned by all the other citizens anymore.

-W
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Classical_Liberal on October 16, 2016, 01:42:27 PM
Dude, stop. Sol completely destroyed both parts of your argument - if you're poor, you're already paying no income taxes, so at least from an economic perspective, this is a libertarian paradise. And yes, you can afford to leave even if you have zero. People walk across borders all the time, often traveling thousands of miles to do it.

Citizenship is a voluntary contract. It might take you some effort to get out of it, but you can do it even without any money at your disposal. You just can't occupy the land owned by all the other citizens anymore.

-W

'merica, love it or leave it?  This argument sounds familiar...
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Telecaster on October 16, 2016, 01:46:32 PM

... ? This feels like a rant against a position I never took.

Or maybe I misunderstand. Is the implied voluntary "social contract" argument only relevant for those paying into the system? And anyone who is net benefiting is not subject to the same thing, where they are voluntarily choosing to participate? Are those people unwilling participants against their will?

If anything, your response boils down to the idea that "if you're too poor you can't leave our system and that's ok and by design since you profit from it" which I find... a bit difficult of a position to support. Particularly if it's made as a piece of  some "social contract" or "voluntary citizenship" argument.

I think you are making it too hard.  On the previous page, MoonLiteNite complained that he was being forced to pay taxes against his will, and if he failed to do so he might even be murdered!*   

As others pointed out so well, that's not true because one can simply leave rather than risk death if one so chooses.   In other words, he's not being forced to do anything. 

I also don't buy the "too poor to move" argument.  If I thought my life was in danger, I would beat feat with nothing more than the clothes on my back.  Millions of refugees immigrate with not much more. 

It is certainly fine to advocate changes in public policy, including taxes.  But if you don't get to claim your life is at stake, when it isn't.   




*I just have to point out that you would have commit serious tax fraud before the IRS actually came and arrested you.  If you simply failed to pay, they would just seize your assets.   Yet another way that analogy fails. 




Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 16, 2016, 02:18:05 PM
'merica, love it or leave it?  This argument sounds familiar...

Ha, that's funny. Good point.

You don't have to love it. But if you love it more than the alternatives, well...

-W
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: ender on October 16, 2016, 03:11:50 PM
I think you are making it too hard.  On the previous page, MoonLiteNite complained that he was being forced to pay taxes against his will, and if he failed to do so he might even be murdered!*   

As others pointed out so well, that's not true because one can simply leave rather than risk death if one so chooses.   In other words, he's not being forced to do anything. 

I also don't buy the "too poor to move" argument.  If I thought my life was in danger, I would beat feat with nothing more than the clothes on my back.  Millions of refugees immigrate with not much more. 

It is certainly fine to advocate changes in public policy, including taxes.  But if you don't get to claim your life is at stake, when it isn't.   




*I just have to point out that you would have commit serious tax fraud before the IRS actually came and arrested you.  If you simply failed to pay, they would just seize your assets.   Yet another way that analogy fails.

This makes a bit more sense, if this is the perspective sol thought I had in his post.

I would still caution against the "well, you're choosing X because you could just do Y instead" approach because within reason and given enough pressure, outside forces can cause you to choose to do a lot of different things.  Simply because one can choose an alternative option doesn't suddenly give a carte blanche to allow anything.

The problem a lot of Libertarians make, including the one you reference apparently, is taking an otherwise fairly defensible perspective (though others may disagree) into a hyperbolic extreme, which is easily disagreed with because the hyperbolic part is... hyperbolic.

Though to be fair, this is how many people portray their political positions. It's not overly uncommon.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: GetItRight on October 16, 2016, 04:37:05 PM
I am libertarian. It all boils down to owning one's body and the Non-Aggression Principle. Others wish to do violence to those who have harmed no one, that's not me.

Reading threads here is seems most are somewhere between socialist and outright communist, a very violent and nasty bunch. Though by that poll it seems abotu 45% here are more or less libertarian (including socially liberal+fiscally conservative). I think libertarians tend to not be as vocal, and certainly not as aggressive in the personal attack department.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: sol on October 16, 2016, 04:59:58 PM
I think libertarians tend to not be as vocal, and certainly not as aggressive in the personal attack department.

As a counterpoint to this assertion, exhibit A comes from this very thread's self-identified libertarians making aggressive personal attacks:

Im as libertarian as it gets... If youve ever taken a dime of gov assistance youre out of my circle. 

This board is made up of half capitalists that provide most of the usefull business content and half lefties democrat progressive scum that think the "badass" section is for switching from paper bags to a reusable bag with a tree printed on it.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 16, 2016, 05:27:42 PM
Please point out some of these personal attacks. While you're at it, you can address the question of why you haven't pulled up stakes moved somewhere with less government...

-W
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: LeRainDrop on October 16, 2016, 06:26:39 PM
Goose Doose has only 5 posts on the MMM forum and clearly hasn't internalized the forum rule to be respectful of others.  I'm going to reject the notion that he's a good representative of the MMM libertarians overall.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Telecaster on October 16, 2016, 08:38:12 PM
I would still caution against the "well, you're choosing X because you could just do Y instead" approach because within reason and given enough pressure, outside forces can cause you to choose to do a lot of different things.  Simply because one can choose an alternative option doesn't suddenly give a carte blanche to allow anything.

I heartily agree on that point.  There is nothing wrong with advocating for or against public policies you disagree with.  In fact, it is your duty as a citizen.   If the reaction to every criticism or new proposal was "if you feel like that, then just leave" we'd never get anything done.   

In this case though, MoonLiteNite stated he was never asked if he wanted to join the club, and therefore complained that he was being asked to chip in.  It is true he never opted in.  But neither is he required to stay.     As waltworks pointed out initially, you can't claim theft if you are here voluntarily. 

I'll go a step further and say the club is set up is that if you don't like the rules, you can persuade your fellow citizens to join you in changing them, and in fact you can vote to change the rules.  But since  you have both a voice in the rules, and the ability opt out, you don't get to claim you are an unwilling victim.  That's just whining.   
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Kyle Schuant on October 16, 2016, 09:00:33 PM
This board is made up of half capitalists that provide most of the usefull business content and half lefties democrat progressive scum that think the "badass" section is for switching from paper bags to a reusable bag with a tree printed on it.
Harsh but fair.

Also, to clarify: this board is international. The USA is like a needy girlfriend: honey, it's not all about you.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 16, 2016, 09:47:27 PM
You can apply the same arguments to any other country, of course. My apologies to those who felt slighted!

-W
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Vagabond76 on October 16, 2016, 10:05:56 PM
+1 to Goose
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Roboturner on October 17, 2016, 09:16:22 AM
This board is made up of half capitalists that provide most of the usefull business content and half lefties democrat progressive scum that think the "badass" section is for switching from paper bags to a reusable bag with a tree printed on it.  MOD NOTE: If you think 1/2 the forum members are "scum" you may wany to find another community to meet your needs/be an echo chamber for your views.

Calling it a 50/50 split is being generous :P

also i can't help but chuckle at the irony of the 'mod'

Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Gin1984 on October 17, 2016, 11:41:01 AM
I am libertarian. It all boils down to owning one's body and the Non-Aggression Principle. Others wish to do violence to those who have harmed no one, that's not me.

Reading threads here is seems most are somewhere between socialist and outright communist, a very violent and nasty bunch. Though by that poll it seems abotu 45% here are more or less libertarian (including socially liberal+fiscally conservative). I think libertarians tend to not be as vocal, and certainly not as aggressive in the personal attack department.
I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative and I am in NO WAY a libertarian.  I think you are biasing your results.  You can't find 45% of people who identify as libertarian here.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 17, 2016, 11:44:36 AM
Are you guys just trying to make LeRainDrop look bad?

-W
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: LeRainDrop on October 17, 2016, 11:52:59 AM
Are you guys just trying to make LeRainDrop look bad?

LOL, I know, right?
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: mm1970 on October 17, 2016, 11:56:46 AM
This whole thread is interesting, and the charts were very interesting too.  Especially because I've always considered myself "centrist" (depending on the quiz, I come out Libertarian or Democrat).  But none of those politicians are all that far left.  What does that mean?  I guess it means it's all relative.

I'm too liberal for my home county and too conservative for my current town.  Definitely I'm the left of center, but I'm for sure in the center.  Very few topics are black/ white for me.  It's complicated.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: wenchsenior on October 17, 2016, 12:31:06 PM
I am libertarian. It all boils down to owning one's body and the Non-Aggression Principle. Others wish to do violence to those who have harmed no one, that's not me.

Reading threads here is seems most are somewhere between socialist and outright communist, a very violent and nasty bunch. Though by that poll it seems abotu 45% here are more or less libertarian (including socially liberal+fiscally conservative). I think libertarians tend to not be as vocal, and certainly not as aggressive in the personal attack department.
I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative and I am in NO WAY a libertarian.  I think you are biasing your results.  You can't find 45% of people who identify as libertarian here.

I self identify as socially liberal and fiscally conservative, and definitely do not identify as libertarian either. But as we've established on several threads about libertarianism, even those who do identify as libertarian can't seem to agree on what it actually means to be one.
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: waltworks on October 17, 2016, 12:46:06 PM
Yeah, I was in a libertarian group in grad school. It was a shitshow. You had about 50% sane rational people who functioned well around others and could have a dialogue with someone that didn't agree, and then a hodgepodge of antisocial lunatics of various kinds. I recall it being about 95% male. People tended to disappear once they found a girlfriend (or a girlfriend found them). Funny stuff.

Point being, none of us could ever agree on what it meant either. Taken to it's logical and philosophical extreme, it's basically anarchism. But once you admit that you need things like an army, courts, police/fire/rescue, public infrastructure, etc (items that get more and more controversial among libertarians) you're actually talking about (!) collective action being used to overcome free rider problems and it all goes to hell because if you're going to tax people to pay for the common good then... crap, you're taxing people to pay for the common good!

-W

Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: dougules on October 17, 2016, 01:09:07 PM
I think the amount of debatearguing proves that the forum here has a pretty wide range of political beliefs.  Unfortunately, everybody is always right. 
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: Schaefer Light on October 17, 2016, 01:52:13 PM
Point being, none of us could ever agree on what it meant either. Taken to it's logical and philosophical extreme, it's basically anarchism. But once you admit that you need things like an army, courts, police/fire/rescue, public infrastructure, etc (items that get more and more controversial among libertarians) you're actually talking about (!) collective action being used to overcome free rider problems and it all goes to hell because if you're going to tax people to pay for the common good then... crap, you're taxing people to pay for the common good!
I think that people who affiliate with any political party are always going to be spread out across a spectrum.  I'm not sure there's a clear definition of conservatism, liberalism, or socialism any more than there is libertarianism (if that's even a word).
Title: Re: Are most Mustachians Libertarian?
Post by: swick on October 17, 2016, 02:33:19 PM
Mod Note: Thread locked due to multiple complaints.