The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Mesmoiselle on March 01, 2015, 02:00:40 PM
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The dishwasher I have now came with the house I bought 18 months ago. It has cleaned dishes to my standards perhaps 1% of the time. But it's better than no dishwasher. And so, I have consented to my husband wasting soap, water, and electricity to "clean" the dishes in this machine. We've cleaned the filter, with nominal improvement.
It actually causes arguments, because he's sort of the house husband and the dishes are never clean to my standards and it's all just gross to me.
But it seems like the reviews of every machine are horribly mixed, usually either because they come broken, the customer service is awful, or because they don't clean.
So, do I just roll the dice and hope for the best? I did comparisons using reviewed.com and verified customer reviews on home depot, Lowe's, Amazon, and best buy. There is a Boche 500 that seems promising.
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Bosch and Whirlpool have the best reliability, per consumer reports. Samsung has the worst reliability.
Oh, and the 500 is a "Recommended" model for price+performance.
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I hate shopping for appliances, for this very reason. Online reviews seem to always be split between people who had their unit die just outside of warranty, and people who are mildly happy with their purchase. I also look forward to hearing any appliance shopping secrets that other mustachians might have...
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Just ordered a Whirlpool after a five-year old Frigidaire broke down (circulation pump). In my brief research, I found that Whirlpool was the brand with the least number and percentage of negative reviews, but you're right that it's a bit of a crapshoot.
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We've been through a few dishwashers and our current Bosch has been the best of the bunch. The wash cycle is longer and the internal filter needs to be cleaned every month or so, but it has been worth it so far.
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Bosch still going strong after 15+ years of well water!
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We have a 3 year old Whirlpool... and bought that brand mostly reasonable price + above average reviews.
We did have an internal thermal fuse blow at about 2.5 years. Google + $20 seemed to repair it.
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I bought an expensive Samsung...and it's been great. Also bought a cheap(ish) Samsung, and already had to replace it within a year due to incredible noise levels. It still cleaned fine, but man...
Honestly, getting by with the fewest dishes possible and hand washing is the way to go. I always "pre-rinse" before putting in the dishwasher anyway, so I wonder to myself why I don't just take a little more time and finish the job manually.
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http://www.geappliances.com/appliances/dishwashers/why-is-there-white-film-on-glassware-dishes-dishwasher-interior.htm
Dishes don't come clean now since phosphates are now banned in dish detergent.
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We have a Bosch and it's been very good for us. It saves us a lot of time, works very well with no repairs yet (knock on wood), and it is very efficient. It came with our house, but we haven't needed to replace it.
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When we built our house seven years ago, we bought Jenn-Air kitchen appliances and I wouldn't ever buy a Jenn-Air dishwasher again and I am actually contemplating even putting a dishwasher in the next house we build. We hand wash our dishes now and I prefer it this way. We can function with much fewer dishes and we never have to wait for a load to finish cleaning and our dishes are much cleaner. Oh, our electricity bill is less, too. My husband and I do the dishes after dinner each night and we use that time to talk and discuss our day, etc.. These are all wins in my book.
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I've found most of the time when this happens the water entering the unit isn't hot enough because the water heater temp is set too low. The heating element inside the washer can't keep up. If you have small kids or elderly people in your home, it's a delicate balance between having a useful water temperature and wanting to not scald anyone.
The tube that carries water to the arm on the top rack often separates on my DW. Probably because I'm always cramming too much stuff in.
I don't hand wash anything unless it's delicate. You're using way more water then the washer would ever use. No pre-rinsing individual dishes either unless something needs to be soaked. You could just run a rinse cycle and not use as much water as that does.
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Bosch is the only dishwasher I would get. I have had other Bosch appliances and hated them, but they make great dishwashers. Simple, quiet, solid, well organized, gets dishes clean every time.
Probably other decent dishwashers out there, but we stick with Bosch. You don't need to go high end, just mid level.
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Or you can just add the phosphate back in. I don't recall the amount, but TSP, which strips grease off of walls, is dirt cheap and adding a little to the dishwasher detergent is supposed to fix the problem.
The federal government apparently does not care if you have clean dishes or clean laundry. Chemistry clearly is not a required class for the folks that make these rules or they would understand why their approach does not work. I'm still of the opinion that the old fashioned top loading washing machine will become like cars in Cuba once they are banned. People will rebuild them and keep them running for decades so they can get the laundry clean. Someone will steal the original recipe for Tide from Procter & Gamble and sell it on the black market. People will furtively make detergent with phosphates in their garages and basements.
I put Whirlpool dishwashers in the rentals. Generally I use the second cheapest model from Home Depot. They are generally good for 8 to 10 years of careless tenants. I'm on my second dishwasher in 26 years at my house. It's a Kenmore, made by Whirlpool.
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I have a 5 or 6 year old (not totally sure, bought it 2nd hand) Siemens. It is doing OK so long as I clean out the filters every month. One thing that seems to help is to use vinegar as a rinse aid. I put it in a small jar on te top shelf. It should not go in the rinse aid drawer. But it seems to keep things pretty clean.
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Another vote for Bosch. Ours works really well (and it was second hand when we got it), and as a bonus it is nice and quiet (important in a small house).
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Always go to Sears Outlet for appliances. Who cares if it has a dent on the front?
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Thank you all. I had no idea you could pull out the filter and clean it. Can't wait to get home and deal with the one I've had for 4 years...
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Our Bosch has been working well since we got it four years ago.
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Bought a Bosch dishwasher just over two years ago. Very quiet and gets stuff real clean. Haven't had any problems, but it's only two years old so what do you want... Only downsides are that if you leave the door shut all the way with dirty dishes, it will be a little smelly when you open it. Not a shock, as you're leaving dirty dishes in an air tight space, but worth mentioning for people who don't run it very often. Other than that, you do have to keep the jetdry filled. It just doesn't dry the dishes very well without the Jetdry. It doesn't use a heated dry like most other washers. That's good, because it uses less electricity, and it wont melt "Top rack only" stuff if you put them on the bottom. It also doesn't have a built in garbage disposal, which is good in making it quieter, but you do have to occasionally check the filter basket for anything left. I've checked my basket occasionally over the last two years. It's only ever caught a metal pin that came out of our cheese grater. All of the food that is in the washer gets broken down enough to not get caught by the filter. If you're the kind of person that puts in plates with chicken bones still stuck to them, then yeah, check that filter more often. :-) Oh, and the beep when it was finished was REALLY annoying. It took a complex button press code to disable the beeping.
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Bought a Bosch dishwasher just over two years ago. Very quiet and gets stuff real clean. Haven't had any problems, but it's only two years old so what do you want... Only downsides are that if you leave the door shut all the way with dirty dishes, it will be a little smelly when you open it. Not a shock, as you're leaving dirty dishes in an air tight space, but worth mentioning for people who don't run it very often. Other than that, you do have to keep the jetdry filled. It just doesn't dry the dishes very well without the Jetdry. It doesn't use a heated dry like most other washers. That's good, because it uses less electricity, and it wont melt "Top rack only" stuff if you put them on the bottom. It also doesn't have a built in garbage disposal, which is good in making it quieter, but you do have to occasionally check the filter basket for anything left. I've checked my basket occasionally over the last two years. It's only ever caught a metal pin that came out of our cheese grater. All of the food that is in the washer gets broken down enough to not get caught by the filter. If you're the kind of person that puts in plates with chicken bones still stuck to them, then yeah, check that filter more often. :-) Oh, and the beep when it was finished was REALLY annoying. It took a complex button press code to disable the beeping.
LOL, we have been wanting to shut off that beep for a while, I keep forgetting to figure out the instructions to do so... :)
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Or you can just add the phosphate back in. I don't recall the amount, but TSP, which strips grease off of walls, is dirt cheap and adding a little to the dishwasher detergent is supposed to fix the problem.
The federal government apparently does not care if you have clean dishes or clean laundry. Chemistry clearly is not a required class for the folks that make these rules or they would understand why their approach does not work. I'm still of the opinion that the old fashioned top loading washing machine will become like cars in Cuba once they are banned. People will rebuild them and keep them running for decades so they can get the laundry clean. Someone will steal the original recipe for Tide from Procter & Gamble and sell it on the black market. People will furtively make detergent with phosphates in their garages and basements.
I put Whirlpool dishwashers in the rentals. Generally I use the second cheapest model from Home Depot. They are generally good for 8 to 10 years of careless tenants. I'm on my second dishwasher in 26 years at my house. It's a Kenmore, made by Whirlpool.
Unless you care marginally about your local water quality or the dead spot in the Gulf. Then it would be best if you didn't do this. TSP is great for cleaning things, but if you do so you should water the grass with it, not send it down the drain. (Also, bla bla bla farmers contribute more to the issue than households, etc)
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I've gotten all of my appliances the same way -- wait until a friend is renovating their kitchen and throwing everything away, and say "Hey, can I have that?"
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Or you can just add the phosphate back in. I don't recall the amount, but TSP, which strips grease off of walls, is dirt cheap and adding a little to the dishwasher detergent is supposed to fix the problem.
The federal government apparently does not care if you have clean dishes or clean laundry. Chemistry clearly is not a required class for the folks that make these rules or they would understand why their approach does not work. I'm still of the opinion that the old fashioned top loading washing machine will become like cars in Cuba once they are banned. People will rebuild them and keep them running for decades so they can get the laundry clean. Someone will steal the original recipe for Tide from Procter & Gamble and sell it on the black market. People will furtively make detergent with phosphates in their garages and basements.
I put Whirlpool dishwashers in the rentals. Generally I use the second cheapest model from Home Depot. They are generally good for 8 to 10 years of careless tenants. I'm on my second dishwasher in 26 years at my house. It's a Kenmore, made by Whirlpool.
Our front loader does a better job with less detergent and less wear and tear on our clothes than our old top loader, so no issues for us there. The $ savings is just a nice extra.
We lived on a green lake for a while, phosphates are banned for good reason, please don't follow this advice and add phosphates. Just use something like Jetdry and experiment with what detergent works best for you.
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Every solution breeds new problems, as engineers say. I can wash my dishes and get them done with less water in a dishwasher with soap that works, or I can prewash or run the dishwasher twice. I can hand wash laundry that must be clean and run the frontloader twice when it does not get the laundry clean or I can dump everything into a toploader and get it all clean for the same amount of water.
With regard to the OP's problem. the food may be redepositing on the dishes because the water is not draining completely after each wash and rinse cycle. If the dishwasher has a food disposer/grinder incorporated in the unit, it may not be working correctly. And a dirty filter could be the problem as well.
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Every solution breeds new problems, as engineers say. I can wash my dishes and get them done with less water in a dishwasher with soap that works, or I can prewash or run the dishwasher twice. I can hand wash laundry that must be clean and run the frontloader twice when it does not get the laundry clean or I can dump everything into a toploader and get it all clean for the same amount of water.
With regard to the OP's problem. the food may be redepositing on the dishes because the water is not draining completely after each wash and rinse cycle. If the dishwasher has a food disposer/grinder incorporated in the unit, it may not be working correctly. And a dirty filter could be the problem as well.
My front-loader does a better job than any top loader ever has. I can do larger loads, save time, use less soap and use less water. I've never had to run my washer twice. Sounds like you're either doing something wrong, have a crap system, or there is something going on with your water. My experience with dishwashers is the same. Unless stuff is caked on really good, the dishwasher gets it off. I'm talking about stuff that you have to soak before you can get it off by hand caked on stuff. Based on your experiences with both washers, maybe you do have something odd with your water. Do you have really hard or soft water?
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Every solution breeds new problems, as engineers say. I can wash my dishes and get them done with less water in a dishwasher with soap that works, or I can prewash or run the dishwasher twice. I can hand wash laundry that must be clean and run the frontloader twice when it does not get the laundry clean or I can dump everything into a toploader and get it all clean for the same amount of water.
With regard to the OP's problem. the food may be redepositing on the dishes because the water is not draining completely after each wash and rinse cycle. If the dishwasher has a food disposer/grinder incorporated in the unit, it may not be working correctly. And a dirty filter could be the problem as well.
What are you doing to your dishes and laundry to make them so hard to clean?
We've been pleased as punch with our Bosch dishwasher, there's 6 people in our house and we cook a lot so it gets run at least once a day. It's 5 years old or so and hasn't given us any problems even through one move. We use Jet-Dry and Finish dish soap and the dishwasher was expensive but sometimes you actually get what you pay for.
Our front loading machines are also Bosch, are about 8 years old at this point, and also work worlds better than the old top loader I had. We even use the "free and clear" kind of soaps that have no scents added and the clothes are clean and smell nice and neutral.
I've never had a problem with the low or no phosphorous cleansers. And love our front loading machine.
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OP, I could have written something similar to your post. The dishwasher is one of the hot topics around our house!
We bought a new Bosch dishwasher last year (forget the model, I think 800 series). We chose one of the new models because we wanted the new 3rd rack for cutlery.
We avoid processed foods, so we cook from scratch, plus we have a young family and therefore have a lot of dishes. We'd used a dishwasher with 3rd rack in another country for a couple of years successfully and thought we knew what we were in for (although it was a different brand, I think a Miele). We were looking forward to the extra space for pots and things.
After our old dishwasher was putting rust everywhere, we agonized over spending so much money but eventually decided to go for it. I am EXTREMELY fussy with clean dishes (they need to look clean and most importantly smell clean) and we just didn't want to deal with the drama of getting a crap one and then wishing we'd spent a bit extra and got one we'd be happy with.
Anyway, I can't even tell you how much drama and fights that damn thing has caused. If we'd kept the old one, I seriously would have put it back, put up with the rust, and eaten the cost of the new one. It just doesn't clean properly. Not enough heat and not enough water. It uses so little water that a lot of the water it uses apparently isn't hot enough by the time it comes through the pipe from the water heater which is only 1.5 rooms away.
We're analytical types so we spent many an evening laying on the floor in front of that damn thing, trying to figure out how the sprays work and how we could get our usual load of dishes clean. And of course we've already spent time looking at the dishwasher hose under the sink and making sure there aren't any low spots etc.
We eventually settled on a type of routine that makes it work for us 95% of the time. First, we can't use the 3rd rack. Forget it. No way that anything gets clean that way. The cutlery at the top stays dirty and it also blocks the next big rack from getting clean too. It's now an expensive accessory that sits on the fridge.
Second, we rinse the super dirty things (i.e. to get chunks off) but not everything. Apparently "these machines need a bit of dirt to clean properly", and it actually does seem that way, otherwise the dishwasher tablet is too strong and just ends up on the dishes at the end without being rinsed off which makes them smell which I can't stand. And then we can only use 1/2 to 2/3 of a dishwasher tablet (although half needs the powerball thing), depending on how dirty the load is. More is too much and less is too little. And since we have hard water, we also need to add a tablespoon of citric acid. (But note that we didn't even need to do this with the old dishwasher, we just added in one dishwasher tab and away it went and out came clean dishes!) Oh and forget running half a load - we wait until there is exactly a full load every time otherwise the ratios are always way off and the dishes aren't clean.
Then, after unloading every load, we need to scrub the filter thoroughly with a hard brush. We're not talking chicken bones, but even the slightest bit of sludge left on it tends to make the next load dirty.
When loading the dishwasher, we need to be super careful with the stacking. Nothing can be remotely touching something else, or there will be a bit of food stuck there and the whole load will stink. No light bowls that may flip over. Nothing with multiple compartments. Nothing with any sort of indentation facing upwards or there will be dirty water pooling in it at the end, and the rest of the load will also stink of course since the rinse water was contaminated. Big cooking spoons must be aligned just so. Nothing against edges of the dishwasher where the sprays won't get to it. If we put a baby bottle in, it needs to be in one of only a few possible places (e.g. "3rd prong from the right back bottom corner") and if you don't put it exactly there then it won't be cleaned.
When we're just about to turn on a new load, we also need to run the water very hot in the sink so the pipes fill with hot water. And we need to make sure the sink waste disposal is completely clear, so there's nothing obstructing the water leaving the dishwasher drain.
We used to also run it on a heavy load with extra rinse every time, but since we're very consistent with all of the above, we've been getting away with a heavy run lately for most of the dishes without the extra rinse. But there are still problems sometimes, like for example just this morning two bowls came out inexplicably dirty with heaps of small chunks of stuff on them even though it was all fresh soft food and the dishes were all stacked properly. Go figure.
Anyway, if we mess anything up, and the dishes come out looking cleaner but smelling filthy (to me), then we generally need to handwash the whole lot in the sink. It's not possible to put them in the dishwasher again, because then they aren't dirty enough and so you can't use the dishwasher tablet but if you don't use any tablet then they just come out smelling the same even if you clean the filter first. It's incredibly frustrating. Sometimes the smell is subtle, so it hits me like a truck but DH can only smell it when he gets up really close to sniff the dishes (at my insistence), but sometimes it's so bad that even he can smell it on his own without getting up close (and that's saying a LOT).
Oh it's also an adjustment getting used to some things being wet when we unload the dishwasher, because there's no heating element to dry things properly. We usually need to shake off anything wet and put it in the draining rack to dry properly.
This dishwasher looks very pretty and it's very quiet (it's true about the red dot, you really do need it sometimes to know that you've turned it on, and we have an extremely calm house, very little background noise) but who cares about that when the dishes don't get clean!
For a while there it almost seemed easier to wash all the dishes by hand, but now things are working for us, as long as we never forget our routine. There's still quite a bit that needs to be handwashed every day though (especially smaller/lighter toddler-related things) that I think most other people would be able to throw in their "normal" dishwasher.
But overall, if you get one of these new "efficient" dishwashers and you have really high cleaning standards then you might need to spend a lot of time figuring out a system that works for you. I hope our procedure gives some ideas to anyone who's really frustrated. Good luck! :)
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@OnTheMoney, with that many issues, why didn't you return it?
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OP, I could have written something similar to your post. The dishwasher is one of the hot topics around our house!
We bought a new Bosch dishwasher last year (forget the model, I think 800 series). We chose one of the new models because we wanted the new 3rd rack for cutlery.
We avoid processed foods, so we cook from scratch, plus we have a young family and therefore have a lot of dishes. We'd used a dishwasher with 3rd rack in another country for a couple of years successfully and thought we knew what we were in for (although it was a different brand, I think a Miele). We were looking forward to the extra space for pots and things.
After our old dishwasher was putting rust everywhere, we agonized over spending so much money but eventually decided to go for it. I am EXTREMELY fussy with clean dishes (they need to look clean and most importantly smell clean) and we just didn't want to deal with the drama of getting a crap one and then wishing we'd spent a bit extra and got one we'd be happy with.
Anyway, I can't even tell you how much drama and fights that damn thing has caused. If we'd kept the old one, I seriously would have put it back, put up with the rust, and eaten the cost of the new one. It just doesn't clean properly. Not enough heat and not enough water. It uses so little water that a lot of the water it uses apparently isn't hot enough by the time it comes through the pipe from the water heater which is only 1.5 rooms away.
We're analytical types so we spent many an evening laying on the floor in front of that damn thing, trying to figure out how the sprays work and how we could get our usual load of dishes clean. And of course we've already spent time looking at the dishwasher hose under the sink and making sure there aren't any low spots etc.
We eventually settled on a type of routine that makes it work for us 95% of the time. First, we can't use the 3rd rack. Forget it. No way that anything gets clean that way. The cutlery at the top stays dirty and it also blocks the next big rack from getting clean too. It's now an expensive accessory that sits on the fridge.
Second, we rinse the super dirty things (i.e. to get chunks off) but not everything. Apparently "these machines need a bit of dirt to clean properly", and it actually does seem that way, otherwise the dishwasher tablet is too strong and just ends up on the dishes at the end without being rinsed off which makes them smell which I can't stand. And then we can only use 1/2 to 2/3 of a dishwasher tablet (although half needs the powerball thing), depending on how dirty the load is. More is too much and less is too little. And since we have hard water, we also need to add a tablespoon of citric acid. (But note that we didn't even need to do this with the old dishwasher, we just added in one dishwasher tab and away it went and out came clean dishes!) Oh and forget running half a load - we wait until there is exactly a full load every time otherwise the ratios are always way off and the dishes aren't clean.
Then, after unloading every load, we need to scrub the filter thoroughly with a hard brush. We're not talking chicken bones, but even the slightest bit of sludge left on it tends to make the next load dirty.
When loading the dishwasher, we need to be super careful with the stacking. Nothing can be remotely touching something else, or there will be a bit of food stuck there and the whole load will stink. No light bowls that may flip over. Nothing with multiple compartments. Nothing with any sort of indentation facing upwards or there will be dirty water pooling in it at the end, and the rest of the load will also stink of course since the rinse water was contaminated. Big cooking spoons must be aligned just so. Nothing against edges of the dishwasher where the sprays won't get to it. If we put a baby bottle in, it needs to be in one of only a few possible places (e.g. "3rd prong from the right back bottom corner") and if you don't put it exactly there then it won't be cleaned.
When we're just about to turn on a new load, we also need to run the water very hot in the sink so the pipes fill with hot water. And we need to make sure the sink waste disposal is completely clear, so there's nothing obstructing the water leaving the dishwasher drain.
We used to also run it on a heavy load with extra rinse every time, but since we're very consistent with all of the above, we've been getting away with a heavy run lately for most of the dishes without the extra rinse. But there are still problems sometimes, like for example just this morning two bowls came out inexplicably dirty with heaps of small chunks of stuff on them even though it was all fresh soft food and the dishes were all stacked properly. Go figure.
Anyway, if we mess anything up, and the dishes come out looking cleaner but smelling filthy (to me), then we generally need to handwash the whole lot in the sink. It's not possible to put them in the dishwasher again, because then they aren't dirty enough and so you can't use the dishwasher tablet but if you don't use any tablet then they just come out smelling the same even if you clean the filter first. It's incredibly frustrating. Sometimes the smell is subtle, so it hits me like a truck but DH can only smell it when he gets up really close to sniff the dishes (at my insistence), but sometimes it's so bad that even he can smell it on his own without getting up close (and that's saying a LOT).
Oh it's also an adjustment getting used to some things being wet when we unload the dishwasher, because there's no heating element to dry things properly. We usually need to shake off anything wet and put it in the draining rack to dry properly.
This dishwasher looks very pretty and it's very quiet (it's true about the red dot, you really do need it sometimes to know that you've turned it on, and we have an extremely calm house, very little background noise) but who cares about that when the dishes don't get clean!
For a while there it almost seemed easier to wash all the dishes by hand, but now things are working for us, as long as we never forget our routine. There's still quite a bit that needs to be handwashed every day though (especially smaller/lighter toddler-related things) that I think most other people would be able to throw in their "normal" dishwasher.
But overall, if you get one of these new "efficient" dishwashers and you have really high cleaning standards then you might need to spend a lot of time figuring out a system that works for you. I hope our procedure gives some ideas to anyone who's really frustrated. Good luck! :)
This post just cemented it for me. The cheap portable dishwasher we bought from someone off Craigslist for $20 stays until it dies.
Have you considered getting a different dishwasher? It does sound easier to wash by hand!
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I bought a new Bosch at Sears, it was a model year end off a display and also was on sale so got a good dealt. I love it
does a great job. We have an open concept kitchen/dining/living room so I didn't want noise. You hardly hear anything except sometimes a tiny water swish noise.
But you might also look at the softness of your water, mine is super soft as we have a softener but I still use a rinse aid, all this stuff helps. And be sure your water is hot enough too, all these things make for clean dishes.
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@OnTheMoney, with that many issues, why didn't you return it?
We would have returned it if it was leaking or something, but it really seems like these new dishwashers just don't clean properly due to the design rather than a defect. We have a lot going on and it really wasn't an option to switch it out again and hope that another one would be better (not to mention losing money on the delivery etc), especially when the info we received suggested that any other dishwasher would be the same if not worse.
We were told that "all" new dishwashers are like this, because they have rules now to limit energy and water usage. I did inquire about getting a much older model and someone told me that they can't sell them anymore for legal reasons because they waste water. Not sure whether that is true. But if we had more time and intended to stay in this house longer then I definitely would have called around trying to find one sitting in a warehouse somewhere.
Anyway, we kept telling ourselves that this was a BRAND NEW, near TOP OF THE RANGE *BOSCH* (!) dishwasher and it should be able to clean the dishes (!), we just had to figure out how to use it. And I guess we've done that, for the most part. I mean, even this morning when a couple of things came out dirty, we didn't need to wash the rest of the load as well. They were all clean enough. So if we follow our procedure, things seems to work well most of the time.
And we also tried to remember that we have pretty high expectations. I know from experience that many people just put up with or don't even notice the things that bother us. The smell I don't like is a kind of "wet dog" smell, particularly when the plates/cutlery/glasses are later in contact with liquids. But some people aren't bothered too much by that smell. It doesn't happen too often now that things come out of the dishwasher that actually still look dirty (which I guess most people would probably object to).
And the noise level really is fabulous. We lived in a place once where the dishwasher used to keep us awake all night while it was running on the other side of the apartment.
Honestly I think the days where we can throw crap in the dishwasher any old way and have it clean the dishes "no matter what" are quite possibly over. The new "efficient" dishwashers just don't use enough heat or water for that. And I suppose that's a good thing. I mean, I know there are people around who run a full load in those older models even with only a few dishes inside, and they don't think twice about the water usage. Forcing people to cut back is sometimes the only way. I guess we just need to adapt a bit to get comparable results with our appliances.
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I think you really need to reconsider your attitude for everyone's benefit. You paid a lot of money for an appliance to perform a function. Accepting that it won't do what you paid for is inviting other manufacturers to give in to dimwit government regulators when they propose some other idiotic limit that prevents whatever they are regulating from performing its function. In your shoes, I would raise hell with the retailer, the manufacturer, and the government agency that mandated this. I would give the machine bad reviews on the manufacturer's website and on the websites of all the retailers that sell the dishwasher. Preventing someone else from buying a non-functional appliance and pressuring the entire industry to produce functional products is a public service.
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OP, I could have written something similar to your post. The dishwasher is one of the hot topics around our house!
That is one painful dishwasher. Mine is a cheap GE that costs 300 tops at Lowes. We have had it for a year and half. One issue is that it is kind of loud. Everything else is fine. We pre clean our dishes first though and we are not fussy about them either.
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With regard to the OP's problem. the food may be redepositing on the dishes because the water is not draining completely after each wash and rinse cycle. If the dishwasher has a food disposer/grinder incorporated in the unit, it may not be working correctly. And a dirty filter could be the problem as well.
huuuuuuum. When we bought the place, the inspection guy said the pipe from the dishwasher was hooked up to our sink wrong. I just shrugged my shoulders and assumed so long as nothing flooded, I didn't care. Could this cause my current machine to be redepositing?
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In my dishwasher's owner's manual it says to run the hot water at the sink before starting the dishes, to ensure hot water is readily available to the dishwasher. With an on-demand heater, this is even more important.
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...
Anyway, I can't even tell you how much drama and fights that damn thing has caused. If we'd kept the old one, I seriously would have put it back, put up with the rust, and eaten the cost of the new one. It just doesn't clean properly. Not enough heat and not enough water. It uses so little water that a lot of the water it uses apparently isn't hot enough by the time it comes through the pipe from the water heater which is only 1.5 rooms away.
We're analytical types so we spent many an evening laying on the floor in front of that damn thing, trying to figure out how the sprays work and how we could get our usual load of dishes clean. And of course we've already spent time looking at the dishwasher hose under the sink and making sure there aren't any low spots etc.
We eventually settled on a type of routine that makes it work for us 95% of the time. First, we can't use the 3rd rack. Forget it. No way that anything gets clean that way. The cutlery at the top stays dirty and it also blocks the next big rack from getting clean too. It's now an expensive accessory that sits on the fridge.
You can thank the US Department of Energy for this one. In 2013, they reduced the amount of water and energy dishwashers are allowed to use (https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/10/01/2012-23953/energy-conservation-program-energy-conservation-standards-for-dishwashers), from 6.5 gallons to 5. That's a massive 23% reduction in water.
The solution? Run a more intense cycle (pots & pans, for example) with extra rinsing.
Some day, I'm going to start up a business that supplies aftermarket appliance parts that will allow appliances to, you know, actually work again...
EDIT:Whoops, got the exact numbers wrong on the new regulations. Fixed now.
EDIT 2: And it'll only get worse: in 2019, they're proposing to reduce water consumption to 3.1 gallons per cycle
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There's a seller on ebay who refurbishes and sells the 1970s-1990s Kitchenaid dishwashers, when they were made by Hobart. They are awesome machines. I'm not sure how much they cost with freight, but probably less than a new dishwasher.
I have a 1995 Kitchenaid with hard food disposal. It's from after they were purchased by Whirlpool but before they went totally down the shitter as far as quality. So it's not as good as a Hobart, but it works. It was $50 on craigslist. The paint is peeling off the trim, but I bought some appliance epoxy and will repaint it this spring. I've had it for almost ten years and it's still going strong, just a little rust and breakage on the racks, but very dealable.
No rinsing required.
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I think I will have the pipe fixed, the filter cleaned, and start running hot water. If no improvement in two more months, I will buy a new machine. It it sucks, I'll eat the delivery cost and return the machine, re install the old one, and wash by hand myself.
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When we bought the place, the inspection guy said the pipe from the dishwasher was hooked up to our sink wrong. I just shrugged my shoulders and assumed so long as nothing flooded, I didn't care. Could this cause my current machine to be redepositing?
Yes it could. The pump might not work effectively in this situation.
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I'm another happy Bosch user. I've had a Bosch 500 series for a little over a year now. It's very quiet and gets the dishes very clean. Although the auto setting doesn't rinse as well, in my experience. I usually use normal or pots & pans when appropriate.
Like the OP, my previous dishwasher came with the house and had not been well maintained. It was a nightmare of brown rust spots and churned redeposited food particles.
The only problem I've had with redepositing food was cinnamon when leaving a bowl liberally coated in cinnamon and honey in the washer without rinsing. (Honey glazed cinnamon coated almonds, try them some time.) For some reason cinnamon would stick to my drinking glasses and nothing else. Nothing else has required pre-rinsing.
I use Finish Powerball Dishwashing Tabs detergent and no Jet-Dry. I rarely have visible water spots on anything. I did try Finish Quantum Max tabs briefly but they left a lot more white residue behind. This may vary with your local water quality, I'm guessing.
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My dad is an appliance repairman - at over 60 years old now, working since he dropped out of high school to apprentice, he's seen a LOT of machines come and go. He says basically, machines now are NOT built to last like back in the day. Most companies have joined together (maytag-whirlpool for example), there are only a handful of companies who make a ton of different brands so they don't feel the need to make a superior product - where else will you go? Consumers are stuck. Also -the dishwashing soap is crap. Years ago, they made it illegal to contain the main cleaning agent that all detergents had in them. Since they had to get rid of that, stuff has never cleaned the way it used to. I find Method Brand "Smarty Dish" tabs to work amazingly well. I had tried Cascade, Finish etc. all of the popular ones before and been unsatisfied. Bonus that Method is enviro friendly and cruelty-free. I don't know what I would do without having a dad as a repairman, I got FREE used stainless steel appliances that he fixed and hooked up for me :) In general - if you have old appliances, keep them until they die. Don't ever give into temptation to replace with modern stylish ones. I know you mustachians never would, anyway!
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We have the Bosch 500 as well and it is great. Just throw the dishes in there after eating and it gets them clean. I've tested everything, dried on eggs, peanut butter, etc, and the dishes always come out very clean.
You should not need to run the hot water in the tap before running the bosch as it has an internal heater. These actually get 20+ degrees hotter than american manufacturers. The heat literally pulverizes the food particles. If you need to clean the screen with a stiff brush after every load something is wrong. I clean mine every week or two, no problems.
Pre-cleaning dishes kind of defeats the purpose of the dishwasher (water savings), and you should not need to with modern machines.
If you are in the market for a new dishwasher then i highly recommend going with a european manufacturer over american.
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In my dishwasher's owner's manual it says to run the hot water at the sink before starting the dishes, to ensure hot water is readily available to the dishwasher. With an on-demand heater, this is even more important.
Mine says this too. It also has a "delayed start" function. It seems to me these are contradictory.
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Hands. The dishwasher brand with a lifetime warranty!
Seriously, I mean I know I have a bit more time than y'all as a SAHD but it is NOT hard to hand wash dishes for a family of 5. I use it as a nice posture break, washing the dirty dishes as the kids make them, keeps me from sitting too much and being fat and lazy.
I cook from scratch, can, do all sorts of homesteading type cookery.
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Yeah, it's not that hard. I did it for 5 years in a postage stamp sized kitchen that wasn't big enough for a dishwasher. (It was literally 5 feet of counter space with a sink in the middle -- usually not even enough room for the dishes themselves.) I do about half-n-half now. Wifey has a lot of vintage cookware and plates that SHALL NOT be put in the dishwasher!
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http://www.geappliances.com/appliances/dishwashers/why-is-there-white-film-on-glassware-dishes-dishwasher-interior.htm
Dishes don't come clean now since phosphates are now banned in dish detergent.
Yup.
Doesn't really matter what dishwasher you get, it won't really wash dishes.
Thank Mother Government.
When they first made the "switch" in formulas, which we knew nothing about (like most people), we thought our old reliable dishwasher had finally gone bad.
We went out and bought a fancy new dishwasher, it, too, fails to wash dishes, leaving ugly film/streaks.
Only later did I go on the internet and find out that it wasn't the dishwasher, it was because the detergent is now nearly useless due to government regulations.
So now we run it through two cycles (does that help the environment? probably not- twice as much detergent and probably 4 times the amount of water wasted) and they still don't come out as clean as one brief cycle on our old machine with the old formula did.
Mother government fails again...
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Canada banned phosphates in dishwashing detergent in 2010. Our dishwasher cleans our dishes well with the cheapest detergent that Costco sells. Maybe the issue isn't 'mother government' but 'user error'?
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I have low level Frigidaire from Lowes that I am generally happy with. The trick is you can't fill it all the way. You need to leave some space between items and make sure the water spigot can rotate. The only two things that get tricky for me are when I make bloody marys, the pepper and other seasonings that leave residue in the glass get thrown onto everything and don't always come off. I just make sure to hand wash the bloody mary glass. The other one is the rice cooker. It will leave a residue on other things if I don't rinse it first. So, my advice is rinse the dishes as you put them in, don't over stuff it, and if anything is known for making a mess, hand wash that one item. We use the Finish pods for what its worth.
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So now we run it through two cycles (does that help the environment? probably not- twice as much detergent and probably 4 times the amount of water wasted) and they still don't come out as clean as one brief cycle on our old machine with the old formula did.
Mother government fails again...
Maybe you don't understand the effects of phosphates in the water. They're a necessary nutrient for plant growth and they bind to particles without degrading, generally. So they basically bind to sediment in the water and remain there until used by plants. This leads to algae blooms, which decay and use up all of the oxygen in the water, which leads to fish kills in your local waterways, poor water quality, and the dead spot in the gulf. And sediment continues to get stirred up and the whole thing begins again without any additional inputs. It's not unreasonable to limit phosphorus use to protect our waterways.
So it that way, running two cycles free of phosphates is still better for the environment than one with phosphates.
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I don't understand the whole "Doing dishes by hand uses up WAY more water than a dishwasher" argument.
Seriously: 1-2 gallon hot (nearly scalding) water reserved in the sink- about 1 Tablespoon of good dish detergent.
Soak/scrub until other sink/tub is full of clean but soapy dishes.
Rinse with hot water for about 30 seconds. Stack dishes into drying rack.
Repeat cycle until no more dishes(you don't refill the wash sink each time). You may have to use 1Tbs more soap about 2 cycles in, and you soak all pots and pans for about 10 minutes, stacked with biggest on the bottom, to smallest on top (also conserves volume of water used this way)
Seriously, if I use more than 7 gallons this way, I'd be floored.
How much water does your average dishwasher use? 15?
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What people don't understand about modern detergent, is not to rinse the dishes... That is right you heard that correctly. If you scrape the dishes, and remove all of the big chunks of food and such, then wash them in the dishwasher, the oil remains from you food actually reacts with the detergent and creates a weak acid, helping to clean your dishes.
Another thing that happens some times, is that your water is to hot. What, you say, to hot how can that be. Since soap manufactures have been mandated to use no phosphate, because the environmental damages were deemed to great, they have started using an enzyme in the soap. Enzyme are an organism, that is alive, and in simplistic terms "eat" the food particles off out your dishes. If you have your water over 130 f then these enzymes start to die, doing a less favorable job. Anything over 145-150 and they all die, leaving your soap as a useless mess of fragrance. This is also true if the water is to cold. The cold water will not activate the enzymes, causing the same issue.
To test this, run hot water out of your tap for 2 minutes or so. Use a thermometer in the water stream. It should be between 115-125. If it is not, adjust your water heater to compensate. This will also provide you with some energy savings, not having to heat the water so much.
Oh - one more this - this applies equally to front load machines, but they have the added need of HE soap. Yes it does mater. No HE soap will foam to much, causing smell and soap residue on your clothes.
I know this will get a lot of resistance here, because, well because that is how we roll on an internet site. We are all experts in everything... But I actually owned and operated a appliance repair business for many years. I have seen the results.
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I don't understand the whole "Doing dishes by hand uses up WAY more water than a dishwasher" argument.
Seriously: 1-2 gallon hot (nearly scalding) water reserved in the sink- about 1 Tablespoon of good dish detergent.
Soak/scrub until other sink/tub is full of clean but soapy dishes.
Rinse with hot water for about 30 seconds. Stack dishes into drying rack.
Repeat cycle until no more dishes(you don't refill the wash sink each time). You may have to use 1Tbs more soap about 2 cycles in, and you soak all pots and pans for about 10 minutes, stacked with biggest on the bottom, to smallest on top (also conserves volume of water used this way)
Seriously, if I use more than 7 gallons this way, I'd be floored.
How much water does your average dishwasher use? 15?
Energy star dishwashers use under 5.8.
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Canada banned phosphates in dishwashing detergent in 2010. Our dishwasher cleans our dishes well with the cheapest detergent that Costco sells. Maybe the issue isn't 'mother government' but 'user error'?
Pff. That's Canada. Of course it couldn't possibly work in the US, just like healthcare.
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Canada banned phosphates in dishwashing detergent in 2010. Our dishwasher cleans our dishes well with the cheapest detergent that Costco sells. Maybe the issue isn't 'mother government' but 'user error'?
Pff. That's Canada. Of course it couldn't possibly work in the US, just like healthcare.
It works better because the dishes are all metric.
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And we also tried to remember that we have pretty high expectations. I know from experience that many people just put up with or don't even notice the things that bother us. The smell I don't like is a kind of "wet dog" smell, particularly when the plates/cutlery/glasses are later in contact with liquids. But some people aren't bothered too much by that smell. It doesn't happen too often now that things come out of the dishwasher that actually still look dirty (which I guess most people would probably object to).
Hmm, now that you mention it some detergents left a smell on the dishes that drove my wife crazy. One that she likes is the Trader Joe's pellets - they seemed to leave no smell at all. However they did leave a white film on some plastic ware like the Snapware food storage containers we had. But if you don't use much plastic that might not be an issue.
Have you tried different detergents?
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This may be kind of random, but in my last quest to get a dishwasher that works, I learned the following: With very soft water use only a little soap. A glass expert told me that too much soap combined with soft water was causing permanent damage to my clear glassware.
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Enzyme are an organism, that is alive, and in simplistic terms "eat" the food particles off out your dishes.
Enzymes are not living organisms.
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Consumer Reports seems to think that even inexpensive dishwashers do a pretty good job these days.
That said, I've got a Bosch that's a couple of years old now, and I like it. I don't find it super quiet, but it's fine. We did have problems at first - it wouldn't drain properly and didn't seem to be finishing the cycle - and the repairman said we needed to use the Finish tablets as they are "less foamy". Evidently "more foamy" will confuse the sensors. So, no problems since that.
I cook a LOT, and in a household of 3 adults and 2 cats, I run that dishwasher at least once/day. Any pan that is really gross I soak and handwash, but I just toss everything else in and it comes out really, really clean.
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We have a Bosch 800 series with the top rack. I don't tend to put a ton of things in the top rack, but I do use it some. I scrape dishes, but mostly don't pre-rinse. I use Finish tabs and rinse aid. The machine is so quiet you can barely tell it is running and I have had no problem with dishes not being clean.
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Just spent an hour last night working on a friend's $800 dishwasher. It's toast. Sadly, these days that extra cost seems to only buy you extra (useless) features and *maybe* some efficiency, but also higher failure rates and more expensive repairs ($250 control panel!?).
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Since soap manufactures have been mandated to use no phosphate, because the environmental damages were deemed to great, they have started using an enzyme in the soap. Enzyme are an organism, that is alive, and in simplistic terms "eat" the food particles off out your dishes. If you have your water over 130 f then these enzymes start to die, doing a less favorable job. Anything over 145-150 and they all die, leaving your soap as a useless mess of fragrance. This is also true if the water is to cold. The cold water will not activate the enzymes, causing the same issue.
Not to be pedantic, but enzymes are not organisms and are not alive. They are complexly folded proteins that chop up other proteins. High temperatures denature (unfold) the protein structure, which yes, causes them to be unable to do their job.
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My people! I bought a new Kenmore/Whirlpool dishwasher 3 or so years ago when the racks that came with the dishwasher that came with the house were disintegrating it. New racks would have cost about $350 so I decided to spring for a mid-level Kenmore--about $700 when on sale. It was the same model sort of that we had in our old house. 2.5 years in the thing started leaking. Repair guy came 3 times, replaced some parts but still leaks. They basically gave up on me. I went online and researched the hell out of it. Replaced a few things. Now the leak is much smaller. I can limp along like this until we save up for a new one.
Lesson learned: buy at simple dishwasher without all the whistles and bells. Replace racks before replace a functioning dishwasher.
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We've been using 2 identical Miele dishwashers since 2007, the then midline Excella model, & we're still completely pleased with them. This is a case where spending more has really paid off, IMO. When it runs, it's so quiet we've taken to snapping a clothespin on the handle to flag that it's being used. (There's a run light, but it's integrated with a cabinet front, so it's harder to see.) Since the machine does not use a heating ring to dry, we can put anything anywhere in it, no "top rack only". There's a 3rd rack for cutlery, which saves so much room, gets them so much cleaner, & are a snap to unload. Hooks to cold water for a safe china & glassware cycle. We scrape but don't pre rinse. The only service call we've had is when a family member mistakenly put too much detergent in. We now use the Miele tabs & cut them in half -- the product isn't cheap but does a fantastic job & eliminates user error. We had to replace one of the trap baskets this year because it became defective -- it was diagnosed easily over the phone, ordered, & I installed it myself.
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Low end dishwashers are a waste of money.
You have two options:
-go on Craigslist and find a dishwasher from the 80s and repair it
-buy a high end dishwasher.
I'm going to get 1,000 face punches for this, and I deserve them, but we bought a Thermadore appliance package (with a Bosch fridge) and the dishwasher is amazing. Amazing. 2 week old dried on food - check. Peanut butter or cheese - check. We don't rinse (aside from big chunks) or pre clean at all, and 99% of dishes come out spotless (I'd say every other load there is one random knife or plate with some small residue on it...). Thermadore Saphire specifically, but $1,500 (though "free" due to sale buying the range / oven / microwave).
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Wow you guys are making me happy with my dishwasher! we have a maytag that came with the house when we moved in. I'd guess it's at least 10 years old. I don't belive in pre-rinsing it's called a dishWASHer, let it wash. I do scrap food off into trash. I use liquid soap not the silly pellet things because it's cheaper. I also only put in about half the soap because it seems to work fine and I'm cheap. Only thing I don't like is that despite the "heated dry" setting being OFF it seems to always heat stuff up. I usually try to stop it and pop it open at the end so it doesn't run the heating part but sometimes I'm not home and miss it.
Overall the mandated water saving things kind of annoy me. I get it some places have serious water problems. I have so much water I don't know what to do with it because I live in an almost rain forst. I had a rain barrel but what can you do with the water?? I'd just end up dumping it once a week or so. I feel a bit guilty from an environmental standpoint but at $15/month water bill spending money on things that save water does not make financial sense!
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Low end dishwashers are a waste of money.
You have two options:
-go on Craigslist and find a dishwasher from the 80s and repair it
-buy a high end dishwasher.
I'm going to get 1,000 face punches for this, and I deserve them, but we bought a Thermadore appliance package (with a Bosch fridge) and the dishwasher is amazing. Amazing. 2 week old dried on food - check. Peanut butter or cheese - check. We don't rinse (aside from big chunks) or pre clean at all, and 99% of dishes come out spotless (I'd say every other load there is one random knife or plate with some small residue on it...). Thermadore Saphire specifically, but $1,500 (though "free" due to sale buying the range / oven / microwave).
Our lowish end Bosch seems to be doing fine. Our mid-to-high end Whirlpool required multiple repairs and finally died at the age of 4.
I know nothing about Thermadore dishwashers... though I've heard no end of complaints on their stoves.
And yeah... the 80s dishwashers (and before) are pretty much bullet proof if you can get parts. This is true of most appliances.