Author Topic: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass  (Read 2773 times)

Valley of Plenty

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Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« on: July 13, 2020, 03:23:12 AM »
Hey everyone, posting here hoping for some advice, or at least an explanation for what I'm experiencing.

I currently rent a 3 bedroom apartment in the north-eastern US. It's one half of a triplex, where I have the entire ground floor and basement, and the neighbors have the entire upstairs and attic. The building is brick, and I am fairly sure that there is no insulation between the brick and drywall. There's also lots of windows, some absurdly large, and none positioned in a good way to capture sunlight during the winter (but that's a different issue not related to this one). Let me preface by saying that I absolutely plan to move out of this place as soon as I can find a good deal on a house. I'm looking for a good deal on a duplex or triplex that I can use as both a primary residence and a rental property. Just waiting for the right deal to turn up.

In the meantime, I'm stuck trying my best to make the best out of my current living situation. Winters are dreadful, as the apartment is large with high ceilings and entirely heated by electric baseboard units. When I first moved in I paid $980 in one month to heat the damn place, because I was not prepared and had done nothing to winterize the place. At the time all of those windows were also single pane glass (I convinced the landlord to get those replaced with dual pane glass, and it helped tremendously). By sectioning off the apartment in the winter and heating only the areas actively being used, I pretty much cut the heating bill in half (which still comes out to about $400 a month, which is still terrible, hence my eagerness to move).

Cooling the place in the summer has always been much easier than heating it in the winter. I have a single 12,000 BTU window unit that can keep the entire place a cool 70 degrees if desired, while not pushing my electric bill above $200 most months. Still, I know that I should be able to do better, so I've been trying to make some changes to reduce my energy consumption. As per the advice given by MMM and others, I started turning off my AC at night and opening windows to vent hot air out and pull cool air in from outside. The trouble is, whenever I do this, the temperature inside my house will still reach about 80 degrees, despite the fact that the temperature outside is in the mid-high 60s!

For the life of me I can not wrap my head around how this is happening. When I turn the AC off around 8PM, the temperature inside the apartment is usually around 72 (this is crazy low, I know, but my girlfriend does not share my commitment to frugality and temperature acclimation and won't let me keep the place 80 all the time). By this time, the outside temperature is usually about the same, and continues dropping down into the 60s over the next few hours. So how is it that turning off my AC and opening a few windows (2 up high to let heat escape, 2 down low to bring cool air in) results in the inside temperature steadily rising to ~80 over the next couple hours? Where is this heat coming from? If the inside and outside both start at 72, how can the temperature possibly increase? Is it possible that the bricks that make up the outside of the house are retaining so much heat that they actually cause the temperature inside to rise at night despite all other factors?

I plan to be out of here before next winter, so this isn't anything more than a short term problem. I just want to try to understand what the hell is happening.

Eowyn_MI

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2020, 04:31:20 AM »
I wouldn't say that this apartment defies the laws of thermal mass.  Rather I'd say that this is a demonstration of thermal mass.

I don't know how many bricks surround your apartment or how hot they get during the day.  However, if I was designing a thermal sink meant to trap heat during the day and steadily release it overnight I would use stone or brick or concrete.

I'm sorry to say I don't have any easy solutions for you.  Best of luck finding a new place to live soon!

PoutineLover

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2020, 06:57:30 AM »
I would make sure the windows that are open are positioned so that a cross breeze through the place can happen, and maybe set up a fan or two to facilitate airflow.

LWYRUP

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2020, 07:11:03 AM »
Ah yes, the joys of a humid northeastern summer with spotty / no air conditioning. 

I tried to last a summer in Philadelphia without air conditioning to save the $50 on a used window unit.  In late July at about 100 degrees inside, I cracked and marched straight over to CVS and paid rack rate.  Lesson learned.  My wife actually did accomplish this feat in Delaware, she is made of sterner stuff.

When I tried my Philadelphia experiment I was young and dumb and just practiced suffering and cooling myself with beer.  You can learn from these mistakes.  Purchase box fans.  Get two and set them up on opposite sides of the room if you can.  Point one into the room and the other out.   If you have black out shades, you can also keep them drawn in the day when you are out.  That helps too.  I did survive some no AC summers in Boston using this trick, but Boston given it's location north and by the ocean doesn't get the brutal heat and humidity in the same way.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 07:14:02 AM by LWYRUP »

Paper Chaser

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2020, 07:28:16 AM »
I wouldn't say that this apartment defies the laws of thermal mass.  Rather I'd say that this is a demonstration of thermal mass.

I don't know how many bricks surround your apartment or how hot they get during the day.  However, if I was designing a thermal sink meant to trap heat during the day and steadily release it overnight I would use stone or brick or concrete.

I'm sorry to say I don't have any easy solutions for you.  Best of luck finding a new place to live soon!

Yep. It's like living in a brick pizza oven. You can remove the heat source (sundown), but it's going to stay hot for a long time.

Can you find a way to shade the exterior somehow?

LWYRUP

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2020, 07:37:37 AM »
Non-crazy idea:  Spray the house down with water about an hour or two before turning off the AC. 

I lived in an old stone building for a few years and it was amazing how cold it would get in the rain.  It was nice and snug when it was 20 degrees outside.  45 and rainy we were chilled to the bone.  I think that explains things like cardigans and tea time in British culture, actually. 

researcher1

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2020, 07:53:40 AM »
I started turning off my AC at night and opening windows to vent hot air out and pull cool air in from outside. The trouble is, whenever I do this, the temperature inside my house will still reach about 80 degrees, despite the fact that the temperature outside is in the mid-high 60s!

When I turn the AC off around 8PM, the temperature inside the apartment is usually around 72. By this time, the outside temperature is usually about the same, and continues dropping down into the 60s over the next few hours.
You need to adjust the TIMING of your approach...you're turning off the AC and opening the windows too early!
You should leave the AC on until midnight, instead of 8pm.

This will keep the uninsulated brick walls from transferring the stored heat inside, while allowing the air temperature to get down into the 60s, which will both cool the exterior of the bricks AND provide air cool enough to make the inside comfortable.

Using this approach will likely allow you to keep the AC off for about 12 hours...from 12am to about 12pm.
Try this and let us know how it works.

merlin7676

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2020, 08:01:25 AM »
My first house was a brick ranch and had the same problem. In hot summer days, we'd keep the windows closed and ran the A/C very little just to keep it a touch cooler. However at night it would get roasting hot with or w/o the A/C unless it was cranked on arctic.
The brick absorbs the sun and heat during the day and then releases it at night.  Even with the windows open, fans blowing air in one and out another, still would remain very hot. 
Never again will I own a brick house.

LWYRUP

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2020, 08:06:09 AM »

But wouldn't a brick house work in the opposite way in the winter?  Keep things just that much toastier on cold nights? 

I think architects and builders should do a better job of designing houses for the particular climate of the area, rather than just plopping down whatever is the aesthetic trend + cheap at the time. 

Valley of Plenty

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2020, 10:49:58 AM »
You need to adjust the TIMING of your approach...you're turning off the AC and opening the windows too early!
You should leave the AC on until midnight, instead of 8pm.

This will keep the uninsulated brick walls from transferring the stored heat inside, while allowing the air temperature to get down into the 60s, which will both cool the exterior of the bricks AND provide air cool enough to make the inside comfortable.

Using this approach will likely allow you to keep the AC off for about 12 hours...from 12am to about 12pm.
Try this and let us know how it works.

I have tried this, by virtue of turning the AC off later than usual by accident. The result is the same. Temperature climbs back up to 80ish. And at no point through the night/into the morning does it start to cool back down unless I turn the AC back on.

Valley of Plenty

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2020, 10:52:35 AM »

But wouldn't a brick house work in the opposite way in the winter?  Keep things just that much toastier on cold nights? 

I think architects and builders should do a better job of designing houses for the particular climate of the area, rather than just plopping down whatever is the aesthetic trend + cheap at the time.

I think the high ceilings and plethora of windows are what makes the place so bad at retaining heat. That and the complete lack of insulation. Any heat we produce probably just serves to warm the upstairs apartment.

The building itself is rather nice, and was built in the 1930s. It just isn’t practical by modern standards.
This house was built in the 30s.

researcher1

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2020, 11:15:40 AM »
I have tried this, by virtue of turning the AC off later than usual by accident. The result is the same. Temperature climbs back up to 80ish. And at no point through the night/into the morning does it start to cool back down unless I turn the AC back on.
What time was "later than usual"?  What it after midnight and temps in the 60's?

I'm surprised the house NEVER cools down with outside air temps that low, assuming you are running the AC for several hours after temps have dropped.

Have you tried putting a fan in open window(s) to pull the 60 degree air into the house?

terran

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2020, 01:29:19 PM »
Is it possible that the bricks that make up the outside of the house are retaining so much heat that they actually cause the temperature inside to rise at night despite all other factors?

Yes, that is absolutely possible. Those bricks have been soaking up heat and sunshine all day so they could very well be hotter than the days high air temperature and they'll radiate that heat back in to the house (as well as out) all night long.

LWYRUP

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2020, 01:36:29 PM »

But wouldn't a brick house work in the opposite way in the winter?  Keep things just that much toastier on cold nights? 

I think architects and builders should do a better job of designing houses for the particular climate of the area, rather than just plopping down whatever is the aesthetic trend + cheap at the time.

I think the high ceilings and plethora of windows are what makes the place so bad at retaining heat. That and the complete lack of insulation. Any heat we produce probably just serves to warm the upstairs apartment.

The building itself is rather nice, and was built in the 1930s. It just isn’t practical by modern standards.
This house was built in the 30s.

Google tells me that additional insulation will not only help you retain heat in the winter but will help keep the house cooler in the summer. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2020, 04:54:35 PM »

But wouldn't a brick house work in the opposite way in the winter?  Keep things just that much toastier on cold nights? 

I think architects and builders should do a better job of designing houses for the particular climate of the area, rather than just plopping down whatever is the aesthetic trend + cheap at the time.

I think the high ceilings and plethora of windows are what makes the place so bad at retaining heat. That and the complete lack of insulation. Any heat we produce probably just serves to warm the upstairs apartment.

The building itself is rather nice, and was built in the 1930s. It just isn’t practical by modern standards.
This house was built in the 30s.

Google tells me that additional insulation will not only help you retain heat in the winter but will help keep the house cooler in the summer. 

Yep, that's how insulation works!  We noticed a big improvement in our heating and cooling costs after insulating the attic, beefing up the insulation against outer walls, and doing some air sealing/caulking of cracks . . . but the best thing is simply how much more comfortable it is to live indoors.  If you cool the house off overnight in the summer, it stays cool for longer.  If you open the window curtains and let the sun stream in to warm up the house in the afternoon in the winter it stays warmer for longer.

Valley of Plenty

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2020, 09:49:48 PM »
So what I'm gathering based on the responses is that there isn't much at all I can do to improve the situation.

I guess I count that as a win, since it means it wasn't due to anything I've been doing wrong, I'm just living in a brick pizza oven.

I'll be sure the next place I live in does not suffer from the same issue.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2020, 04:24:29 AM »
So what I'm gathering based on the responses is that there isn't much at all I can do to improve the situation.

I guess I count that as a win, since it means it wasn't due to anything I've been doing wrong, I'm just living in a brick pizza oven.

I'll be sure the next place I live in does not suffer from the same issue.

Yeah, for a rental there's not much to be done that would be cost effective. I want to emphasize that it's not an issue with the brick as much as it's an issue with an old house and improper insulation. Properly insulated brick homes are fine. Poorly insulated homes of any material are going to be uncomfortable in a climate with actual seasons.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2020, 12:52:08 PM »
What is the water heater situation? I assume it is inside the conditioned space and is electric. Does it have an insulating jacket? Are the pipes insulated?

You could be essentially running a boiler all summer.

K_in_the_kitchen

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2020, 01:28:34 PM »
My house is stucco exterior, plaster and lathe interior, and I have the same problem.  Turning off the A/C and opening the windows as soon as the exterior temperature is lower than the interior temperature doesn't work at all.  In late spring/early summer I can open a window right before I turn off the lights and go to bed, run the interior fan, and cool the house a few degrees, but come July it doesn't work at all.  It's better for me to leave the windows closed, set the A/C to an acceptable temperature (I actually keep it cooler over night than during the day), and run the A/C fan overnight.

Depending on temperature and humidity, sometimes I can open the windows early in the morning, run the A/C fan, and cool the house a little that way.  But if it's too humid out it doesn't work, because in the house humidity is a big indicator of how comfortable I'll be with the A/C set to 78°F.

In general, our stucco + plaster lathe works really well during shoulder seasons.  When it first starts getting hot outside but still cools down considerably at night, we don't need A/C because the house doesn't absorb too much heat during the day after having cooled down at night.  When it first starts cooling down, we don't need heat, because the house holds enough heat from the day.

traveler

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2020, 01:42:04 PM »
You can still force hot air out of the house by creating a cross breeze with two window fans, one expelling hot air in the second floor, one getting cold air in on the first floor.

Both fans running continuously overnight should use far less energy than an AC unit.

See Wirecutter for recommendations: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-window-fans/

neophyte

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2020, 06:08:15 AM »
I live in a brick house with a similar problem.  It's relatively well insulated, but I think the climate here just won't allow me to cool the house without the air conditioner. It's usually still in the 80s outside when I go to sleep. Lately I've been waking up around 3 to shut off the air conditioner, open windows, and turn on window fans, but unless the outdoor temperature is more than a few degrees cooler than the inside temperature, the indoor temperature starts going up. I can't sleep if it's above 75, and the outdoor temp drops to about 68-72 (additional pet peeve, when the forecast is wrong. Overnight low was supposed to be 68 last night but it was actually 72, making my 3 am wake-up pointless) by around 5 am.  The outdoor air also has significantly higher humidity than the air conditioned air, so even if the temperature outside is 1 or 2 degrees cooler, it often doesn't feel that way. I've slept about 3 hours a night for the last couple days and I'm very cranky.  I just don't see a solution other than aclimating myself to being able to sleep at higher temperatures, but everytime I try I give up from either physical illness or mental stress from too much sleep deprivation.

You have my sympathy, but sadly no solutions.

Poundwise

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2020, 03:33:56 PM »
I hear that a reflective window covering can also help. Also is it possible, since you are on the ground floor, to get permission to erect a temporary trellis and plant vines to shade walls that get the sun?

tygertygertyger

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2020, 07:39:12 AM »
I live in a 3 story brick building from the 19-teens, and we don't seem to have the same problem that you are describing. I was about to mention growing ivy or other plants up the walls. We did notice that after our landlord pulled down most of the ivy here last year, it was noticeably warmer inside... Seconding the growing plants idea.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2020, 02:48:04 PM »
I hear that a reflective window covering can also help. Also is it possible, since you are on the ground floor, to get permission to erect a temporary trellis and plant vines to shade walls that get the sun?
I like this idea.  When we lived in a brick house in Texas, I hung some roll-down shades from the soffit on the southwest side of the house, to shade the windows and the bricks.  It made a noticeable difference in those rooms.

djadziadax

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2020, 03:00:13 PM »

I think the high ceilings and plethora of windows are what makes the place so bad at retaining heat. That and the complete lack of insulation. Any heat we produce probably just serves to warm the upstairs apartment.

The building itself is rather nice, and was built in the 1930s. It just isn’t practical by modern standards.
This house was built in the 30s.

I think the key here is lots of windows - have you tried to put solar shades on? Shades that are specifically designed to let light in but not heat. We are in a new apt building, and have had the same problem, but once we started lowering the shades throughout the hot / sunny days, we use a LOT less air conditioning, and the apt does cool off at night with 2 huge windows wide open.

J Boogie

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2020, 07:59:09 PM »
Seconding the idea to hose it down at night. The brick will give some of its heat to the water instead of you. Mopping your floors can help too, but only in the morning as your use of AC probably keeps them cold all day anyways.

Also position a fan pointing out the window, ideally the highest window in your unit, and open your bedroom window so that your bedroom will be drawing in the cool air for a pleasant sleep.

If you have double hung windows you can open the top to allow the warmest air out.

ohsnap

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2020, 07:56:33 AM »
My house is stucco exterior, plaster and lathe interior, and I have the same problem.  Turning off the A/C and opening the windows as soon as the exterior temperature is lower than the interior temperature doesn't work at all. ...

We have a stucco exterior and dry-wall interior and have the same problem.  It really seems to defy physics as I can't see how my light-color stucco walls could possibly hold so much heat that would transfer to the interior after sundown.  My house will be cooled to 76, I notice that it's 72 outside so I turn off the AC and open windows - an hour later the house is 80.

J Boogie

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Re: Apartment Defies the Laws of Thermal Mass
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2020, 08:18:18 AM »
My house is stucco exterior, plaster and lathe interior, and I have the same problem.  Turning off the A/C and opening the windows as soon as the exterior temperature is lower than the interior temperature doesn't work at all. ...

We have a stucco exterior and dry-wall interior and have the same problem.  It really seems to defy physics as I can't see how my light-color stucco walls could possibly hold so much heat that would transfer to the interior after sundown.  My house will be cooled to 76, I notice that it's 72 outside so I turn off the AC and open windows - an hour later the house is 80.

Well, light color walls don't mean that you won't absorb any heat. You'll absorb some heat from the air and some from the sun's rays (though significantly less if your house was dark).

Setting up a temporary trellis or asking landlord to plant some birch trees/a permanent trellis could help OP a bit. Climbing vines can be good too. It's tough given the limitations as a renter, but if you are a homeowner you can probably make a decent amount of progress by shading.

Even though your exterior is already light in color, shading can help as it will also keep the air next to your stucco exterior cool, minimizing the heat gain through ambient air temperature in addition to sun blocking.