Author Topic: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?  (Read 37734 times)

kimmarg

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2013, 03:43:46 PM »
Word around the office is that if the shutdown goes we will get back pay (I am required to work through a shutdown) .... eventually. I don't think they can get away with making us work and not paying us, but payroll processing *will* be shutdown so getting the money could take a while. Here's hoping someone blinks first. As one of the prior posters said- public or private potential job loss/ cut is not good :/

I'm curious how this works on the civilian side.  When you say you are required to work through a shutdown, does that just mean you get fired if you stop showing up?

I'm not sure exactly, but I'm not really that interested in finding out. My position falls under 'public safety' - hence the working during a shutdown requirement.

davisgang90

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2013, 07:22:07 PM »
I am guessing they will exempt military pay, as has been done in the past.

We aren't really stockpiling and we will be okay for quite a while if they don't.  I may hold off on extra payments to our mortgage until we see what will happen, but that's really the only change for now.
If it is a government shutdown military pay will be impacted (not pension pay, just active duty).  Mil pay was exempted from the furlough, not shutdown.
The last potential shutdown in 2011, the military was not to be exempted.  My old boss got in an argument with one of our worthless congressmen in Nova at a town hall about the issue. 
Not necessarily, and if history is any indicator, not likely.  Military pay was exempted from all 10 government shutdowns that have occurred 1980-1996.  While it would take an exemption and that isn't a sure thing (which is why I said I am "guessing" they will exempt military pay), I am hopeful that they would do as has been done in the past, which is to exempt military pay.  This is different from the furlough, but historically, military pay has continued almost seamlessly during shutdowns.

fallstoclimb

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2013, 09:26:45 AM »
Oh geez.  I did not mean to start a political discussion.  At the time when I first posted, the shutdown seemed likely to me but agencies weren't yet taking steps to prepare for it, so I didn't know if I was overreacting.  By now, we've all gotten the dreaded time-to-prepare emails.  I held back my extra student loan payment this month, and I'm glad I did so that I don't have to pull from the EF (this was a psychological decision rather than a mathematical one).  We'll be fine but a lot of people won't be. 

But, you know, for the record:  Congress has substantially reduced the retirement benefits of newer feds, pay has been frozen for what - three years now? - my agency cancelled all bonuses last year (tiny to begin with), and, most upsetting to me, since the OPM conference scandal we now have to fight tooth and nail to attend scientific conferences, which is a real shame because we have valuable data and research information to share with other scientists.  I would probably get paid a little more in the private sector.  Not really sure where all the hate is coming from. 

daverobev

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2013, 11:16:20 AM »
Oh geez.  I did not mean to start a political discussion.  At the time when I first posted, the shutdown seemed likely to me but agencies weren't yet taking steps to prepare for it, so I didn't know if I was overreacting.  By now, we've all gotten the dreaded time-to-prepare emails.  I held back my extra student loan payment this month, and I'm glad I did so that I don't have to pull from the EF (this was a psychological decision rather than a mathematical one).  We'll be fine but a lot of people won't be. 

But, you know, for the record:  Congress has substantially reduced the retirement benefits of newer feds, pay has been frozen for what - three years now? - my agency cancelled all bonuses last year (tiny to begin with), and, most upsetting to me, since the OPM conference scandal we now have to fight tooth and nail to attend scientific conferences, which is a real shame because we have valuable data and research information to share with other scientists.  I would probably get paid a little more in the private sector.  Not really sure where all the hate is coming from.

I guess it's because the government is like a huge oil tanker - takes lots of time to turn around. There are no quick fixes, but the voters wanting them leads to knee-jerk reactions that don't solve the problems.

The anger is against the people who are getting all the benefits and just won't die. Not their fault! But not your fault either, and someone has to pay...

Ho hum.

Bakari's 25 hour work week, or whatever it was, would make life better, if it could be made to work. But some people get 'into' it just through pressure and being there. I know I work best when under pressure.

johnjm22

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2013, 12:04:56 PM »
The "Government Shutdown" is a media charade not even worth paying attention to.

Much ado about nothing.

Villanelle

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2013, 01:01:50 PM »
The "Government Shutdown" is a media charade not even worth paying attention to.

Much ado about nothing.

Can you elaborate?  Do you say this because you think it isn't going to happen, or because you don't think it's a big deal if it does happen?

sol

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2013, 07:37:11 PM »
The "Government Shutdown" is a media charade not even worth paying attention to.

My household income immediately goes to zero if the charade plays out.  I recognize that it's all political theater, but it's political theater that has a very real impact on my family.

But, you know, for the record:  Congress has substantially reduced the retirement benefits of newer feds, pay has been frozen for what - three years now? - my agency cancelled all bonuses last year (tiny to begin with)

I don't even so much mind the ongoing pay freeze and retirement benefit reductions so much as I mind the underlying message that motivates them: your service is not valued.  It's difficult for managers to motivate a workforce that has so clearly been told that what they do doesn't matter, that no matter how hard they work or how they good they are at their jobs, they will never get a raise and worse yet, people including their elected representatives will spit on them for doing their jobs.

Quote
have to fight tooth and nail to attend scientific conferences, which is a real shame

As a federal scientist, this part really peeves me.  Sharing the results of our research is one of the prime functions of a scientist, how can you forbid that?  Do you tell firefighters that the budget is tight, so they aren't allowed to put water on fires anymore?  Isn't there a more cost effective way to reduce budgets, say an across the board cut to all operations? (oh wait we already have that too.)

As if federal travel had ANY bearing on the federal budget.  NASA spends more money on PR in a year than my entire agency spends for all costs together, travel included, and NASA isn't even very big.  The travel restrictions are also pure political theater, motivated by highly publicized scandals that have nothing to do with the people actually being punished.  It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.

brewer12345

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2013, 08:00:37 PM »
The "Government Shutdown" is a media charade not even worth paying attention to.

My household income immediately goes to zero if the charade plays out.  I recognize that it's all political theater, but it's political theater that has a very real impact on my family.

But, you know, for the record:  Congress has substantially reduced the retirement benefits of newer feds, pay has been frozen for what - three years now? - my agency cancelled all bonuses last year (tiny to begin with)

I don't even so much mind the ongoing pay freeze and retirement benefit reductions so much as I mind the underlying message that motivates them: your service is not valued.  It's difficult for managers to motivate a workforce that has so clearly been told that what they do doesn't matter, that no matter how hard they work or how they good they are at their jobs, they will never get a raise and worse yet, people including their elected representatives will spit on them for doing their jobs.

Quote
have to fight tooth and nail to attend scientific conferences, which is a real shame

As a federal scientist, this part really peeves me.  Sharing the results of our research is one of the prime functions of a scientist, how can you forbid that?  Do you tell firefighters that the budget is tight, so they aren't allowed to put water on fires anymore?  Isn't there a more cost effective way to reduce budgets, say an across the board cut to all operations? (oh wait we already have that too.)

As if federal travel had ANY bearing on the federal budget.  NASA spends more money on PR in a year than my entire agency spends for all costs together, travel included, and NASA isn't even very big.  The travel restrictions are also pure political theater, motivated by highly publicized scandals that have nothing to do with the people actually being punished.  It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.

+1000

msilenus

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2013, 09:57:27 PM »
Unless the filibusters are cancelled, we're already down to the wire.  There's no such thing as filibuster-proof when the Senate is on a tight enough deadline.  This one is still doable, but not by much:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/23/theres-much-less-time-to-avoid-a-government-shutdown-than-you-think/

It's brewing up to be another white-knuckler.

CDP45

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2013, 12:01:33 AM »
The "Government Shutdown" is a media charade not even worth paying attention to.

My household income immediately goes to zero if the charade plays out.  I recognize that it's all political theater, but it's political theater that has a very real impact on my family.

But, you know, for the record:  Congress has substantially reduced the retirement benefits of newer feds, pay has been frozen for what - three years now? - my agency cancelled all bonuses last year (tiny to begin with)

I don't even so much mind the ongoing pay freeze and retirement benefit reductions so much as I mind the underlying message that motivates them: your service is not valued.  It's difficult for managers to motivate a workforce that has so clearly been told that what they do doesn't matter, that no matter how hard they work or how they good they are at their jobs, they will never get a raise and worse yet, people including their elected representatives will spit on them for doing their jobs.

Quote
have to fight tooth and nail to attend scientific conferences, which is a real shame

As a federal scientist, this part really peeves me.  Sharing the results of our research is one of the prime functions of a scientist, how can you forbid that?  Do you tell firefighters that the budget is tight, so they aren't allowed to put water on fires anymore?  Isn't there a more cost effective way to reduce budgets, say an across the board cut to all operations? (oh wait we already have that too.)

As if federal travel had ANY bearing on the federal budget.  NASA spends more money on PR in a year than my entire agency spends for all costs together, travel included, and NASA isn't even very big.  The travel restrictions are also pure political theater, motivated by highly publicized scandals that have nothing to do with the people actually being punished.  It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.

No single raindrop believes it is responsible for the flood.

matchewed

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2013, 05:11:53 AM »
The "Government Shutdown" is a media charade not even worth paying attention to.

My household income immediately goes to zero if the charade plays out.  I recognize that it's all political theater, but it's political theater that has a very real impact on my family.

But, you know, for the record:  Congress has substantially reduced the retirement benefits of newer feds, pay has been frozen for what - three years now? - my agency cancelled all bonuses last year (tiny to begin with)

I don't even so much mind the ongoing pay freeze and retirement benefit reductions so much as I mind the underlying message that motivates them: your service is not valued.  It's difficult for managers to motivate a workforce that has so clearly been told that what they do doesn't matter, that no matter how hard they work or how they good they are at their jobs, they will never get a raise and worse yet, people including their elected representatives will spit on them for doing their jobs.

Quote
have to fight tooth and nail to attend scientific conferences, which is a real shame

As a federal scientist, this part really peeves me.  Sharing the results of our research is one of the prime functions of a scientist, how can you forbid that?  Do you tell firefighters that the budget is tight, so they aren't allowed to put water on fires anymore?  Isn't there a more cost effective way to reduce budgets, say an across the board cut to all operations? (oh wait we already have that too.)

As if federal travel had ANY bearing on the federal budget.  NASA spends more money on PR in a year than my entire agency spends for all costs together, travel included, and NASA isn't even very big.  The travel restrictions are also pure political theater, motivated by highly publicized scandals that have nothing to do with the people actually being punished.  It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.

No single raindrop believes it is responsible for the flood.

Pareto principle. We actually have numbers and data to support Sol's point rather than seemingly meaningful sayings which add nothing to the any point.

avonlea

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2013, 05:47:57 AM »
Pareto principle. We actually have numbers and data to support Sol's point rather than seemingly meaningful sayings which add nothing to the any point.

Agreed. 

sol, johnjm22, and all of the other federal employees: thanks so much for all of the work that you do! 

Thanks especially to the scientists! Advancement cannot come without increased knowledge. I hope that sharing your discoveries will be encouraged soon.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2013, 11:53:29 AM »
It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.
I would think that is par for the course within almost any area of the public sector.

How do you think the taxpayer feels when they read stories about the Feds spending $2.2 million dollars to study lesbians obesity?

If a private company is wasteful, they go out of business.
If the government is wasteful, they increase taxes, higher commissions to justify the spending, or blame the previous party.

That said, the fear of being out of work is real whether you are public or private sector.


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sol

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2013, 02:50:21 PM »
It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.
I would think that is par for the course within almost any area of the public sector.

Generally speaking, I find working within the federal bureaucracy to be annoying and sometimes cumbersome, but usually manageable.  There's a lot of extra paperwork and documentation, and congressionally-mandated but otherwise useless online training courses to take, but usually you're allowed to do your job as long as you meet your timelines and stay under budget.

But the travel restrictions are just dumb.  There were some bad apples in one agency who totally defrauded the government, and I support firing those people and even recouping the lost funds from their personal accounts.  But to then turn around and punish 2 million other federal employees, who had nothing to do with those few bad apples, is obviously a political ploy to appease the angry mobs and not in any way related to the problem at hand. 

Imagine some punk kid from your town steals a car.  Rather than put him in jail and return the car, the city council decides that everyone in town is henceforth limited to 1.5 miles of driving per week.  You have to continue paying for your car insurance and maintenance, you're just limited in how much you can drive.  That's about the closest analogy I can think of to the way they've handled the federal travel scandals.  It doesn't address the problem and it hurts people who haven't done anything wrong, but oh boy does it play well in the headlines. 

Quote
How do you think the taxpayer feels when they read stories about the Feds spending $2.2 million dollars to study lesbians obesity?

I imagine that people who have no interest in obesity research are pretty pissed off about it.  I bet some folks are also annoyed that the government is trying to cure cancer, is conducting a war, is monitoring citizen's emails, is regulating pollution limits, is reforming schools, and is building space probes.  The US government is like the most diversified company in the world, and there's always going to be something to hate in their business plan.

Personally, I really hate that the government is giving 40 billion dollars per year to the oil and gas industry, consistently the most profitable industry on the planet and simultaneously the largest recipient of government tax breaks and benefits.  I think that's straight up fraud, stealing from the American taxpayer to line the pockets or corporate titans.  And it pisses me off way more than any little 2 million dollar obesity study ever could.  Just to help you out with the math, that's 20,000 times the amount you're upset about, taken from taxpayers and given to Chevron and Exxon and Shell.  Twenty thousand times as much.  Per year.

And even that 40 billion is small change in the grand scheme of things.  We spend roughly seven hundred billion dollars on national defense, another seven hundred billion on medicare, and another 700 billion on social security.  As ridiculous as the 40 billion oil and gas industry subsidy is, we could double it by only cutting those three programs by less than 2%.

And that 2 million dollar obesity study?  Suddenly it's a rounding error.  Your calculator doesn't have enough decimal places for it to even show up.  Government is huge, and punishing workers with pay freezes or restricting employee travel is not the way to balance the budget.  We need significant structural reforms to the things we actually spend money on, not headline-making publicity stunts (like a shutdown) to trim a few million here and there.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 02:52:12 PM by sol »

CDP45

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2013, 06:02:27 PM »


Quote
Personally, I really hate that the government is giving 40 billion dollars per year to the oil and gas industry, consistently the most profitable industry on the planet and simultaneously the largest recipient of government tax breaks and benefits.  I think that's straight up fraud, stealing from the American taxpayer to line the pockets or corporate titans.  And it pisses me off way more than any little 2 million dollar obesity study ever could.  Just to help you out with the math, that's 20,000 times the amount you're upset about, taken from taxpayers and given to Chevron and Exxon and Shell.  Twenty thousand times as much.  Per year.


What? Any reference? Mind you that stealing less in taxes is NOT "giving" money. Also at least 90% of the population is alive due to oil/gas.

matchewed

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2013, 06:36:24 PM »


Quote
Personally, I really hate that the government is giving 40 billion dollars per year to the oil and gas industry, consistently the most profitable industry on the planet and simultaneously the largest recipient of government tax breaks and benefits.  I think that's straight up fraud, stealing from the American taxpayer to line the pockets or corporate titans.  And it pisses me off way more than any little 2 million dollar obesity study ever could.  Just to help you out with the math, that's 20,000 times the amount you're upset about, taken from taxpayers and given to Chevron and Exxon and Shell.  Twenty thousand times as much.  Per year.


What? Any reference? Mind you that stealing less in taxes is NOT "giving" money. Also at least 90% of the population is alive due to oil/gas.

Your claim may also need a citation. :)

One note before I continue, when you approach taxes as stealing we may already have a bad conversation starter as you may not be able to move far enough away from that position to keep an open mind. Of course I may also have that problem so pot black and glass house hoopla.

That being said, subsidies are indeed giving money. Since government budgets are frequently analogized to a household budget I'll use that (poor) analogy to demonstrate why. Taxes are always demonstrated as part of the income equation to that household budget analogy. If I decide to let someone else keep my money instead of letting them pay me I am indeed giving them that money.

Outside of that I did find a study which, although can't support 40 billion per year to those industries, does show 18.3 billion from 2002 to 2008 direct payments to those industries. That's an average of 2.6 billion a year of direct payments which go into the pockets of the oil, gas, and coal companies. http://www.elistore.org/Data/products/d19_07.pdf page 13. Fun little nuggets in that, did you know coal companies are supposed to have an excise tax on them to help pay for coal miners who get black lung disease? And if that excise tax isn't large enough to cover that amount that instead of the coal companies being on the hook we pay for it through taxes? But that's cool. At least my coal is cheap and the company doesn't have to have the direct burden of caring for that which they've been a cause of.

johnjm22

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2013, 06:53:02 PM »
My household income immediately goes to zero if the charade plays out.  I recognize that it's all political theater, but it's political theater that has a very real impact on my family.

Quote from: Villanelle
Can you elaborate?  Do you say this because you think it isn't going to happen, or because you don't think it's a big deal if it does happen?

I agree that a Federal Government shutdown would have an economic impact, I just don't believe it will happen (at least not on a significant scale).

Despite what they say, Republicans are profligate spenders just like Democrats.  At the end of the day, both parties have interest groups in their pockets riding the government gravy train (I happen to work for one).

theSchmett

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2013, 09:43:56 PM »
No.  I'm paid by a federal grant... but I can't see any government shutdown lasting longer than my "emergency fund" of clean credit cards with low/no interest advances. Meaning, I can't see it lasting for more than a week, if even.

Too many congressman have too many constituents with government jobs. I can't believe the sequester even went through though, so what do I know.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2013, 08:02:31 AM »
It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.
I would think that is par for the course within almost any area of the public sector.

Generally speaking, I find working within the federal bureaucracy to be annoying and sometimes cumbersome, but usually manageable.  There's a lot of extra paperwork and documentation, and congressionally-mandated but otherwise useless online training courses to take, but usually you're allowed to do your job as long as you meet your timelines and stay under budget.

But the travel restrictions are just dumb.  There were some bad apples in one agency who totally defrauded the government, and I support firing those people and even recouping the lost funds from their personal accounts.  But to then turn around and punish 2 million other federal employees, who had nothing to do with those few bad apples, is obviously a political ploy to appease the angry mobs and not in any way related to the problem at hand. 

Imagine some punk kid from your town steals a car.  Rather than put him in jail and return the car, the city council decides that everyone in town is henceforth limited to 1.5 miles of driving per week.  You have to continue paying for your car insurance and maintenance, you're just limited in how much you can drive.  That's about the closest analogy I can think of to the way they've handled the federal travel scandals.  It doesn't address the problem and it hurts people who haven't done anything wrong, but oh boy does it play well in the headlines. 

Quote
How do you think the taxpayer feels when they read stories about the Feds spending $2.2 million dollars to study lesbians obesity?

I imagine that people who have no interest in obesity research are pretty pissed off about it.  I bet some folks are also annoyed that the government is trying to cure cancer, is conducting a war, is monitoring citizen's emails, is regulating pollution limits, is reforming schools, and is building space probes.  The US government is like the most diversified company in the world, and there's always going to be something to hate in their business plan.

Personally, I really hate that the government is giving 40 billion dollars per year to the oil and gas industry, consistently the most profitable industry on the planet and simultaneously the largest recipient of government tax breaks and benefits.  I think that's straight up fraud, stealing from the American taxpayer to line the pockets or corporate titans.  And it pisses me off way more than any little 2 million dollar obesity study ever could.  Just to help you out with the math, that's 20,000 times the amount you're upset about, taken from taxpayers and given to Chevron and Exxon and Shell.  Twenty thousand times as much.  Per year.

And even that 40 billion is small change in the grand scheme of things.  We spend roughly seven hundred billion dollars on national defense, another seven hundred billion on medicare, and another 700 billion on social security.  As ridiculous as the 40 billion oil and gas industry subsidy is, we could double it by only cutting those three programs by less than 2%.

And that 2 million dollar obesity study?  Suddenly it's a rounding error.  Your calculator doesn't have enough decimal places for it to even show up.  Government is huge, and punishing workers with pay freezes or restricting employee travel is not the way to balance the budget.  We need significant structural reforms to the things we actually spend money on, not headline-making publicity stunts (like a shutdown) to trim a few million here and there.

So would you be upset if there was a 2 million govt study on eating habits of straight males?

All I'm hearing is you ranting about the govt not picking the winners you want it to.

avonlea

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #69 on: September 25, 2013, 08:42:16 AM »
Okay, I am making a disclaimer.  I know that I am probably biased in my opinion.  My husband is a software engineer who left his corporate job 5 years ago and took a steep pay cut (he's making much less than sol) in order to work at a university.  He wanted to feel that his career was doing something good for society, and by taking this job, he was able to help with advancing scientific research.  He works mostly with astronomers and nuclear physicists (had a tiny role to play in the confirmation of the Higgs particle, for which I am so proud of him). He will not be affected by the possible shut down coming up, but much of his work is paid for by grants from the DOE and NSF. 

If people are afraid that research projects are ridiculous and the government significantly cuts the funding for them, so much potential will be lost.  Just look at what the investment in NASA has made possible for everyday life. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/50-years-50-giant-leaps-how-nasa-rocked-our-world-879377.html

sol's point was that everyone has a beef with some sort of expense that the federal government makes.  And the extreme examples touted in the media are most likely not the source of our biggest financial  waste.  If the oil industry is able to make huge profits, why give them so many breaks?  Just like if your adult child has a well-paying job, why continue to pay his rent?  Departments like the EPA get vilified regularly thanks to interest groups, but I can't imagine how worse the quality of my life (and the future quality of my grandchildren's lives) would be without it.  We really do live in a bit of an oligarchy, and we have to compare the information we are given by biased sources with the bigger picture.

matchewed

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #70 on: September 25, 2013, 08:49:03 AM »

So would you be upset if there was a 2 million govt study on eating habits of straight males?

All I'm hearing is you ranting about the govt not picking the winners you want it to.

Isn't that exactly what you were doing when you said -

It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.
I would think that is par for the course within almost any area of the public sector.

How do you think the taxpayer feels when they read stories about the Feds spending $2.2 million dollars to study lesbians obesity?


Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #71 on: September 25, 2013, 09:13:29 AM »

So would you be upset if there was a 2 million govt study on eating habits of straight males?

All I'm hearing is you ranting about the govt not picking the winners you want it to.

Isn't that exactly what you were doing when you said -

It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.
I would think that is par for the course within almost any area of the public sector.

How do you think the taxpayer feels when they read stories about the Feds spending $2.2 million dollars to study lesbians obesity?


Not at all. I citing one example of waste.

I don't believe that a small group of politicians or unelected bureaucrats picking any winners is an accurate way to represent everyone. That market intervention is pure distortion, often based on special interests.

Ben

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #72 on: September 25, 2013, 09:46:05 AM »
Similar to the OP, I will not pay additional principle on my mortgage this month to free up a little extra capital. I doubt it will last long, but there is no harm in waiting a few weeks to send in that payment...

My organization has probably spent more time developing shutdown contingency plans than the total time that will elapse if a shutdown occurs... a very inefficient way to run a government or a business, but an exercise that occurs more and more frequently under these times of political brinkmanship. Then again, the last time we actually passed a federal budget on time was 1996, so I don't think efficiency is the primary goal of government spending.

Mega

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #73 on: September 25, 2013, 09:46:52 AM »
A couple of comments.

1 - Be careful what you call waste in science. Many great discoveries were made while someone was trying to do something else. See microwave ovens, penicillin, etc.

2 -Many other great technologies are an indirect result of government spending. See atomic energy, the internet, GPS navigation, etc.

3 - Finally, many great things are a direct result of wasteful goverment spending, when viewed from a historical perspective. For example, building a massive road based interstate transit system, when almost no one owns a car / no transport trucks, seems like a giant waste of money (building roads through the desert). Now, how could we live life without it.

Realistically, the government is one of the few organizations that can spend money on things with very long term payback horizon. Or even something without any obvious benefit at all.

Alternatively, the way I have heard it put is "Taxes are the price you pay for living in a civilized society".

_______

Regarding the original topic, I am stockpiling cash in the hope that the government shutdown has a major impact on stock prices. I know it won't, but one can hope.

matchewed

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #74 on: September 25, 2013, 10:03:03 AM »

So would you be upset if there was a 2 million govt study on eating habits of straight males?

All I'm hearing is you ranting about the govt not picking the winners you want it to.

Isn't that exactly what you were doing when you said -

It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.
I would think that is par for the course within almost any area of the public sector.

How do you think the taxpayer feels when they read stories about the Feds spending $2.2 million dollars to study lesbians obesity?


Not at all. I citing one example of waste.

I don't believe that a small group of politicians or unelected bureaucrats picking any winners is an accurate way to represent everyone. That market intervention is pure distortion, often based on special interests.

What you're calling waste is just an example of what the government has chosen to study that you consider a "loser", to use you winner/loser analogy.

So why is your view of what is a loser (or waste) any more valid than Sol's view? Sol feels it is a waste to spend money on oil/coal/gas industries and you feel it is a waste to spend money on researching obese lesbians. I personally feel that if you're going to complain about the latter and say the spending of 2 million is wasteful then the fact that the government does direct payouts of 2.6 billion must really get your goat. Yet that's not what you choose to get upset about. I just find it humorous that 2 million on scientific research is wasteful but objection to 2.6 billion in payouts to a profitable market is a rant.

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2013, 10:37:35 AM »
For anyone military, Navy Fed and Marine Fed will be covering the Oct 15 deposit for anyone who uses direct deposit.  It's unclear whether that will be base pay or full pay.  USAA will be offering 0% payday loans, though it is something you have to apply for (via "My accounts" on USAA's website) and it is *not* automatic.  The option isn't up yet, but keep checking back if you need it, and get in early if you can because I suspect they'll be swamped. 

I'm not applying as we have plenty of other failsafes we can turn to, but for those who need it, the military banks look to be providing a lot of help. 

CDP45

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2013, 07:49:29 PM »
We do not enjoy the quality of life and wealth in America due to federal grants, sorry. Value is earned on the market, not by arbitrary bureaucracy.

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2013, 07:59:16 PM »

Value is earned on the market, not by arbitrary bureaucracy.

If there is one place where "value" is created in our world, I'm pretty sure it's not on Wall Street.  I might vote for within the family, in music halls and art studios, at construction sites and manufacturing zones, in successful schools and hospitals, or even in banks.  Note that ALL of these places can exist and have existed without Wall Street or a stock market.

CDP45

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2013, 09:46:41 PM »

Value is earned on the market, not by arbitrary bureaucracy.

If there is one place where "value" is created in our world, I'm pretty sure it's not on Wall Street.  I might vote for within the family, in music halls and art studios, at construction sites and manufacturing zones, in successful schools and hospitals, or even in banks.  Note that ALL of these places can exist and have existed without Wall Street or a stock market.

Those wonderful things also exist without government. At least the market is voluntary.

sol

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2013, 10:39:30 PM »
Those wonderful things also exist without government. At least the market is voluntary.

I didn't claim value was created in government.  You did claim it is only created in the market.

Way to forcefully rebutt a point that no one made, though.  Props.

Is anyone here really claiming that scientific research has no value?  I'd love to hear that argument articulated in a way that doesn't induce laughter.

msilenus

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #80 on: September 26, 2013, 12:02:16 AM »
I'm keeping some powder dry, yes.

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #81 on: September 26, 2013, 08:13:07 AM »

Value is earned on the market, not by arbitrary bureaucracy.

If there is one place where "value" is created in our world, I'm pretty sure it's not on Wall Street.  I might vote for within the family, in music halls and art studios, at construction sites and manufacturing zones, in successful schools and hospitals, or even in banks.  Note that ALL of these places can exist and have existed without Wall Street or a stock market.

Those wonderful things also exist without government. At least the market is voluntary.

No actually, that's quite incorrect.

You don't have a safe place to gather and produce value without police, fire fighters (and inspectors), building codes and mechanical engineers, architects, etc.  Without education, you get fewer people able to produce as much value.  You can't create much value without the ability to move your goods via roads, rail, sea and air.  All of these things require good governance to function well.

Removing the government is a nice romantic notion, but effectively what you're advocating is anarchy.  This is why all groups of people living together throughout history have ended up setting up some form of government.  It's essential to life in any form of functioning society.

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2013, 07:39:44 AM »

So would you be upset if there was a 2 million govt study on eating habits of straight males?

All I'm hearing is you ranting about the govt not picking the winners you want it to.

Isn't that exactly what you were doing when you said -

It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.
I would think that is par for the course within almost any area of the public sector.

How do you think the taxpayer feels when they read stories about the Feds spending $2.2 million dollars to study lesbians obesity?


Not at all. I citing one example of waste.

I don't believe that a small group of politicians or unelected bureaucrats picking any winners is an accurate way to represent everyone. That market intervention is pure distortion, often based on special interests.

What you're calling waste is just an example of what the government has chosen to study that you consider a "loser", to use you winner/loser analogy.

So why is your view of what is a loser (or waste) any more valid than Sol's view? Sol feels it is a waste to spend money on oil/coal/gas industries and you feel it is a waste to spend money on researching obese lesbians. I personally feel that if you're going to complain about the latter and say the spending of 2 million is wasteful then the fact that the government does direct payouts of 2.6 billion must really get your goat. Yet that's not what you choose to get upset about. I just find it humorous that 2 million on scientific research is wasteful but objection to 2.6 billion in payouts to a profitable market is a rant.

Read what I bolded again, it appears you either missed or don't understand the point. I said I do not endorse ANY govt subsidies in the market. From big oil to big lesbians, its all waste because it was not chosen by the free market.

So I agree with Sol on that, it is wrongful waste to subsidize the oil industry, or any industry as well.

I find it humorous how people have these preset formed partisan profiles in their minds and are so flippantly applied without much thought.

matchewed

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2013, 08:25:23 AM »

So would you be upset if there was a 2 million govt study on eating habits of straight males?

All I'm hearing is you ranting about the govt not picking the winners you want it to.

Isn't that exactly what you were doing when you said -

It's the worst sort of bureaucractic bullshit.
I would think that is par for the course within almost any area of the public sector.

How do you think the taxpayer feels when they read stories about the Feds spending $2.2 million dollars to study lesbians obesity?


Not at all. I citing one example of waste.

I don't believe that a small group of politicians or unelected bureaucrats picking any winners is an accurate way to represent everyone. That market intervention is pure distortion, often based on special interests.

What you're calling waste is just an example of what the government has chosen to study that you consider a "loser", to use you winner/loser analogy.

So why is your view of what is a loser (or waste) any more valid than Sol's view? Sol feels it is a waste to spend money on oil/coal/gas industries and you feel it is a waste to spend money on researching obese lesbians. I personally feel that if you're going to complain about the latter and say the spending of 2 million is wasteful then the fact that the government does direct payouts of 2.6 billion must really get your goat. Yet that's not what you choose to get upset about. I just find it humorous that 2 million on scientific research is wasteful but objection to 2.6 billion in payouts to a profitable market is a rant.

Read what I bolded again, it appears you either missed or don't understand the point. I said I do not endorse ANY govt subsidies in the market. From big oil to big lesbians, its all waste because it was not chosen by the free market.

So I agree with Sol on that, it is wrongful waste to subsidize the oil industry, or any industry as well.

I find it humorous how people have these preset formed partisan profiles in their minds and are so flippantly applied without much thought.

So why pick on a 2 million dollar study as the source of waste? Why is a scientific study your source of consternation when you are saying you do not like government subsidies to markets?

From what you categorize as waste I may draw some conclusions, sure those conclusions could be wrong but we're characterized by what we write and the points we make.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2013, 09:06:45 AM »
So why pick on a 2 million dollar study as the source of waste? Why is a scientific study your source of consternation when you are saying you do not like government subsidies to markets?

If you support spending 2 million dollars on studying why some lesbians are obese, please explain the value to me.

However, that is still besides the point. I support a free market driving scientific research.

matchewed

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2013, 09:28:52 AM »
So why pick on a 2 million dollar study as the source of waste? Why is a scientific study your source of consternation when you are saying you do not like government subsidies to markets?

If you support spending 2 million dollars on studying why some lesbians are obese, please explain the value to me.

However, that is still besides the point. I support a free market driving scientific research.

Have you actually checked what the study is looking into? It is trying to determine why homosexual women have obesity rates at nearly three quarters of the population compared to heterosexual women who are closer to half. The study has also been looking at heterosexual and homosexual males as well as they have just the opposite problem (with different specific numbers).

If we're able to determine some causes then courses of action can be developed to prevent or address those causes. Assuming you agree that obesity correlates with poor health then if we address obesity we reduce costs associated with healthcare. Given that minority populations (including sexual orientation minorities) are the most likely to need to rely on government assistance for whatever reason you want to come up with, reducing the amount of money they need to use from the government may be a good thing. That may be one of many values that these studies have.

That's just super that you support free market. It's a meaningless concept that only exists in the mind. There is no such thing as a free market, as all markets will have influence.

Also we wouldn't be here today with our scientific discoveries without government. Between DARPA, military research, NASA...etc. we have been able to have the modern life we enjoy today. Yes private industry had a significant hand in our modern life as well but anyone who takes a position that only one side or the other is the ideal situation is ignoring that private industry and government have worked together to make the world we live in.

DoubleDown

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2013, 10:00:26 AM »

 I support a free market driving scientific research.


The "market" driving research is why we have a half dozen varieties of erectile dysfunction drugs, at least a few dozen kinds of antacids and headache medicines, but no drugs for significant, debilitating and deadly diseases that are not as widespread and therefore not profitable. I'd be excited if one day I could watch the evening news and instead of seeing ten Cialis and Viagra ads, we see cures for horrible "orphan" diseases. What private, profit-driven enterprise is going to invest money in research for afflictions that strike only a few thousand people? Or for any other area in science that does not have immediate profit appeal?

One of the basic lessons I remember from Econ 101: Good markets do not equal good policy. The two are completely separate, and sometimes we decide to sacrifice pure market efficiency for sound public policy reasons. As an example, letting the market go its own way will inevitably lead to monopolies, but we put policy restrictions (i.e., government) in place to prevent it, for the public good.

I guess if I ever have trouble getting a b*ner I'll be all set ten different ways thanks to the $billions of market research put there, but may God bless those parents whose hearts are breaking every day for their children suffering and dying from uncured/unprofitable diseases.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #87 on: September 27, 2013, 10:21:12 AM »
So why pick on a 2 million dollar study as the source of waste? Why is a scientific study your source of consternation when you are saying you do not like government subsidies to markets?

If you support spending 2 million dollars on studying why some lesbians are obese, please explain the value to me.

However, that is still besides the point. I support a free market driving scientific research.

Have you actually checked what the study is looking into? It is trying to determine why homosexual women have obesity rates at nearly three quarters of the population compared to heterosexual women who are closer to half. The study has also been looking at heterosexual and homosexual males as well as they have just the opposite problem (with different specific numbers).

If we're able to determine some causes then courses of action can be developed to prevent or address those causes. Assuming you agree that obesity correlates with poor health then if we address obesity we reduce costs associated with healthcare. Given that minority populations (including sexual orientation minorities) are the most likely to need to rely on government assistance for whatever reason you want to come up with, reducing the amount of money they need to use from the government may be a good thing. That may be one of many values that these studies have.

That's just super that you support free market. It's a meaningless concept that only exists in the mind. There is no such thing as a free market, as all markets will have influence.

Also we wouldn't be here today with our scientific discoveries without government. Between DARPA, military research, NASA...etc. we have been able to have the modern life we enjoy today. Yes private industry had a significant hand in our modern life as well but anyone who takes a position that only one side or the other is the ideal situation is ignoring that private industry and government have worked together to make the world we live in.

The free market is only a meaningless concept to someone who supports a top down authoritarian directive.

It does actually exist. Look at consumer technology, what government department or agency do we have to thank there? We have more advancements at cheaper prices in all areas of consumer technology. This is a result of direct consumer influence, picking the winners and losers, not government intervention.

Yes Google and the NSA have worked together, not sure if that's a good thing. Google on it's own sounds a lot better. As for DARPA, I'm pretty sure the majority of the population is not choosing to research, invest and build a multi-million bullet proof robotic Terminator dog.

In your mind, if you want to accurately represent an entire population, do you sample a very small percentage of it, or the whole population?

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #88 on: September 27, 2013, 10:33:22 AM »

 I support a free market driving scientific research.


The "market" driving research is why we have a half dozen varieties of erectile dysfunction drugs, at least a few dozen kinds of antacids and headache medicines, but no drugs for significant, debilitating and deadly diseases that are not as widespread and therefore not profitable. I'd be excited if one day I could watch the evening news and instead of seeing ten Cialis and Viagra ads, we see cures for horrible "orphan" diseases. What private, profit-driven enterprise is going to invest money in research for afflictions that strike only a few thousand people? Or for any other area in science that does not have immediate profit appeal?

One of the basic lessons I remember from Econ 101: Good markets do not equal good policy. The two are completely separate, and sometimes we decide to sacrifice pure market efficiency for sound public policy reasons. As an example, letting the market go its own way will inevitably lead to monopolies, but we put policy restrictions (i.e., government) in place to prevent it, for the public good.

I guess if I ever have trouble getting a b*ner I'll be all set ten different ways thanks to the $billions of market research put there, but may God bless those parents whose hearts are breaking every day for their children suffering and dying from uncured/unprofitable diseases.

Saying there's no incentive to develop cures for a disease is sort of ridiculous. Imagine the profit from the company that develops a cancer curing drug?

Monopolies only arise with state protection. Think Monsanto.

In a true free market any true advantage was voluntarily chosen by the people because of the best product, like an iphone. Certainly Apple is not a monopoly. The field is wide open for other competition, which drives down price and increases technology. That benefits everyone.

matchewed

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #89 on: September 27, 2013, 10:43:55 AM »
So why pick on a 2 million dollar study as the source of waste? Why is a scientific study your source of consternation when you are saying you do not like government subsidies to markets?

If you support spending 2 million dollars on studying why some lesbians are obese, please explain the value to me.

However, that is still besides the point. I support a free market driving scientific research.

Have you actually checked what the study is looking into? It is trying to determine why homosexual women have obesity rates at nearly three quarters of the population compared to heterosexual women who are closer to half. The study has also been looking at heterosexual and homosexual males as well as they have just the opposite problem (with different specific numbers).

If we're able to determine some causes then courses of action can be developed to prevent or address those causes. Assuming you agree that obesity correlates with poor health then if we address obesity we reduce costs associated with healthcare. Given that minority populations (including sexual orientation minorities) are the most likely to need to rely on government assistance for whatever reason you want to come up with, reducing the amount of money they need to use from the government may be a good thing. That may be one of many values that these studies have.

That's just super that you support free market. It's a meaningless concept that only exists in the mind. There is no such thing as a free market, as all markets will have influence.

Also we wouldn't be here today with our scientific discoveries without government. Between DARPA, military research, NASA...etc. we have been able to have the modern life we enjoy today. Yes private industry had a significant hand in our modern life as well but anyone who takes a position that only one side or the other is the ideal situation is ignoring that private industry and government have worked together to make the world we live in.

The free market is only a meaningless concept to someone who supports a top down authoritarian directive.

Really? Why? And after you accuse me of not understanding you, you put that comment out? I don't believe in a top down authoritarian directive but that doesn't mean that I believe in a free market either, there is a grey area between those two extremes. And don't assume I support an authoritarian directive.

It does actually exist. Look at consumer technology, what government department or agency do we have to thank there? We have more advancements at cheaper prices in all areas of consumer technology. This is a result of direct consumer influence, picking the winners and losers, not government intervention.

Yes Google and the NSA have worked together, not sure if that's a good thing. Google on it's own sounds a lot better. As for DARPA, I'm pretty sure the majority of the population is not choosing to research, invest and build a multi-million bullet proof robotic Terminator dog.

Which consumer technology? Cell phones? Original history came from the German military, probably not a free market. Computers? The Zuse Z3 one of the first modern programmable computers was funded by the German military (I'm seeing a German theme as well as a distinctly non free market one).

In your mind, if you want to accurately represent an entire population, do you sample a very small percentage of it, or the whole population?

I could ask you the same question, and to answer your question we have a field called statistics, you can sample a population and determine an accurate representation of it. We actually do it all the time in the real world.


Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2013, 11:08:18 AM »
That's not meant as put down, but market intervention from a central government is a top down authoritarian directive. It's certainly not a bottom up grassroots one.

"We do it all the time" is not a means that it is just (in my opinion) or accurate. Statistics are misused all the time. "Lies, damn lies and statistics" was his quote. I think the answer to my last question is obvious. If an entity is taking the moral high ground to govern, it should accurately represent, the only way to do that is to sample everyone on a voluntary basis, instead of system run by a handful of officials representing certain interests.

So did the military proliferate that technology it? No, a genuine free market did.

Whether you believe in it or not, the current success on an iPhone is a pure free market phenomenon. Now if there are billion dollar government contracts for millions of iphones, I can see where that market was distorted. But as it is, its a pure consumer driven market. And you can disagree, but there is more value in that approach, than a top down one.

matchewed

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #91 on: September 27, 2013, 11:45:51 AM »
That's not meant as put down, but market intervention from a central government is a top down authoritarian directive. It's certainly not a bottom up grassroots one.

"We do it all the time" is not a means that it is just (in my opinion) or accurate. Statistics are misused all the time. "Lies, damn lies and statistics" was his quote. I think the answer to my last question is obvious. If an entity is taking the moral high ground to govern, it should accurately represent, the only way to do that is to sample everyone on a voluntary basis, instead of system run by a handful of officials representing certain interests.

So did the military proliferate that technology it? No, a genuine free market did.

Whether you believe in it or not, the current success on an iPhone is a pure free market phenomenon. Now if there are billion dollar government contracts for millions of iphones, I can see where that market was distorted. But as it is, its a pure consumer driven market. And you can disagree, but there is more value in that approach, than a top down one.

You keep moving the goal posts. First you asked -

Quote
Look at consumer technology, what government department or agency do we have to thank there?

I answer that we have plenty of government departments and agencies to thank (particularly military). Then you decide to move the goal posts to proliferation. Fine there wouldn't even be a market for the phones to proliferate within without the government helping with defining what infrastructure would be necessary to support a mobile phone using society. Laws to determine where towers can be, GPS satellites for maps, 3G came from the International Telecommunication Union. You appear to think in absolutes here and refuse to accept any evidence that your free market concept is a fairy tale. Actual real life relies on both markets, private industry, and governments to function and prosper.

Whether you believe it or not you have no evidence that the iphone is a product of the pure free market. It is a product of tons of work both by individuals, private industry, and governments. To think otherwise is narrow-minded and disingenuous.

DoubleDown

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #92 on: September 27, 2013, 11:50:36 AM »

Saying there's no incentive to develop cures for a disease is sort of ridiculous. Imagine the profit from the company that develops a cancer curing drug?

You are reinforcing my point. Cancer is a disease that affects hundreds of millions of people, and therefore receives a great deal of research attention both privately and publicly. Which market-driven pharmaceutical companies are working on the cure for Abetalipoproteinemia? (I picked that disease out of a list, I had never heard of it before, and I imagine you have not either, though it sounds definitely like no fun). The fact I've never heard of it is likely a good indication it's getting little if any research attention, unlike cancer.


Monopolies only arise with state protection. Think Monsanto.


That is false.

In a true free market any true advantage was voluntarily chosen by the people because of the best product, like an iphone. Certainly Apple is not a monopoly. The field is wide open for other competition, which drives down price and increases technology. That benefits everyone.

I like capitalism and competition and Apple. I repeat that free markets do not necessarily equal good public policy. I'm not arguing against Apple (even though I recall they were very recently hit with antitrust actions for attempting to stifle competition -- i.e., behaving like a monopoly but being thwarted in its attempts). If you let only the "market" dictate what scientific research is performed, it's not going to equal good public policy. Hence, the many versions of Viagra and Tylenol, but nothing for rare conditions. And as pointed out above, the idea that markets are operating without standing on the shoulders of government, and vice versa, is fantasy.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #93 on: September 27, 2013, 12:32:36 PM »
That's not meant as put down, but market intervention from a central government is a top down authoritarian directive. It's certainly not a bottom up grassroots one.

"We do it all the time" is not a means that it is just (in my opinion) or accurate. Statistics are misused all the time. "Lies, damn lies and statistics" was his quote. I think the answer to my last question is obvious. If an entity is taking the moral high ground to govern, it should accurately represent, the only way to do that is to sample everyone on a voluntary basis, instead of system run by a handful of officials representing certain interests.

So did the military proliferate that technology it? No, a genuine free market did.

Whether you believe in it or not, the current success on an iPhone is a pure free market phenomenon. Now if there are billion dollar government contracts for millions of iphones, I can see where that market was distorted. But as it is, its a pure consumer driven market. And you can disagree, but there is more value in that approach, than a top down one.

You keep moving the goal posts. First you asked -

Quote
Look at consumer technology, what government department or agency do we have to thank there?

I answer that we have plenty of government departments and agencies to thank (particularly military). Then you decide to move the goal posts to proliferation. Fine there wouldn't even be a market for the phones to proliferate within without the government helping with defining what infrastructure would be necessary to support a mobile phone using society. Laws to determine where towers can be, GPS satellites for maps, 3G came from the International Telecommunication Union. You appear to think in absolutes here and refuse to accept any evidence that your free market concept is a fairy tale. Actual real life relies on both markets, private industry, and governments to function and prosper.

Whether you believe it or not you have no evidence that the iphone is a product of the pure free market. It is a product of tons of work both by individuals, private industry, and governments. To think otherwise is narrow-minded and disingenuous.

Can you spare the adjectives like narrow minded and disingenuous? If you have to use those, then maybe the argument you're laying out isn't all there.

I'm not moving the goal posts, you are focusing on a side issue based on assumption. You assume nothing would ever be invented without a government sponsorship.

Do you think government creates demand in the marketplace?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 12:36:15 PM by Mr.Macinstache »

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #94 on: September 27, 2013, 12:48:11 PM »

Saying there's no incentive to develop cures for a disease is sort of ridiculous. Imagine the profit from the company that develops a cancer curing drug?

You are reinforcing my point. Cancer is a disease that affects hundreds of millions of people, and therefore receives a great deal of research attention both privately and publicly. Which market-driven pharmaceutical companies are working on the cure for Abetalipoproteinemia? (I picked that disease out of a list, I had never heard of it before, and I imagine you have not either, though it sounds definitely like no fun). The fact I've never heard of it is likely a good indication it's getting little if any research attention, unlike cancer.


Monopolies only arise with state protection. Think Monsanto.


That is false.

In a true free market any true advantage was voluntarily chosen by the people because of the best product, like an iphone. Certainly Apple is not a monopoly. The field is wide open for other competition, which drives down price and increases technology. That benefits everyone.

I like capitalism and competition and Apple. I repeat that free markets do not necessarily equal good public policy. I'm not arguing against Apple (even though I recall they were very recently hit with antitrust actions for attempting to stifle competition -- i.e., behaving like a monopoly but being thwarted in its attempts). If you let only the "market" dictate what scientific research is performed, it's not going to equal good public policy. Hence, the many versions of Viagra and Tylenol, but nothing for rare conditions. And as pointed out above, the idea that markets are operating without standing on the shoulders of government, and vice versa, is fantasy.

I'm not reinforcing your point, I'm pointing out to you that there is great incentive to cure diseases because there is great demand for that product. The market can and will take care of that funding research. As for rare diseases, the demand is lacking, therefore so are products. We live in a world with a finite number of resources and demand will direct the use of those.

With Apple, I believe they were trying to use the courts enforce some domain of intellectual property they claimed..Yes I agree they tried to stifle the market, and I forget the outcome...but didn't the courts disagree? So they tried to abuse the free market system and lost. It's a case where courts and the rule of law protected a free market, and consumers won, giving us competition, choice and lower prices with advanced tech.

randymarsh

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #95 on: September 27, 2013, 01:10:24 PM »
So because the consumer electronics market can pretty much stand on its own (we'll ignore the government's huge role in the creation of the Internet or the fact that GPS was and still is a taxpayer supported venture), that means a "free market" is the solution for everything?

Some things shouldn't have a profit.

matchewed

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #96 on: September 27, 2013, 01:21:19 PM »
That's not meant as put down, but market intervention from a central government is a top down authoritarian directive. It's certainly not a bottom up grassroots one.

"We do it all the time" is not a means that it is just (in my opinion) or accurate. Statistics are misused all the time. "Lies, damn lies and statistics" was his quote. I think the answer to my last question is obvious. If an entity is taking the moral high ground to govern, it should accurately represent, the only way to do that is to sample everyone on a voluntary basis, instead of system run by a handful of officials representing certain interests.

So did the military proliferate that technology it? No, a genuine free market did.

Whether you believe in it or not, the current success on an iPhone is a pure free market phenomenon. Now if there are billion dollar government contracts for millions of iphones, I can see where that market was distorted. But as it is, its a pure consumer driven market. And you can disagree, but there is more value in that approach, than a top down one.

You keep moving the goal posts. First you asked -

Quote
Look at consumer technology, what government department or agency do we have to thank there?

I answer that we have plenty of government departments and agencies to thank (particularly military). Then you decide to move the goal posts to proliferation. Fine there wouldn't even be a market for the phones to proliferate within without the government helping with defining what infrastructure would be necessary to support a mobile phone using society. Laws to determine where towers can be, GPS satellites for maps, 3G came from the International Telecommunication Union. You appear to think in absolutes here and refuse to accept any evidence that your free market concept is a fairy tale. Actual real life relies on both markets, private industry, and governments to function and prosper.

Whether you believe it or not you have no evidence that the iphone is a product of the pure free market. It is a product of tons of work both by individuals, private industry, and governments. To think otherwise is narrow-minded and disingenuous.

Can you spare the adjectives like narrow minded and disingenuous? If you have to use those, then maybe the argument you're laying out isn't all there.

I'm not moving the goal posts, you are focusing on a side issue based on assumption. You assume nothing would ever be invented without a government sponsorship.

Do you think government creates demand in the marketplace?

How are you not moving the goal posts? I've established that consumer technology products have the government to thank for the generation of the technology itself which in response to your first point. Then you change the point to be about the proliferation and I then established that the infrastructure supporting these devices (don't forget the roads these are shipped on) has been provided by the government therefore the proliferation is also supported by the government. Now I need to prove that the government creates demand in a marketplace? Fine. Don't like the joke, then how about this article?

How is that a side issue? You're stating that the success of the iPhone is based on a pure free market. I'm saying that there wouldn't even be an iPhone without the government. That's why I'm using an adjective like disingenuous. You know better than to believe that the iPhone originated from the free market given that its infrastructure and component technology came from government initiatives. That's distinctly not a side issue and is the direct issue I'm stating.

Don't put arguments in my mouth, I never said I assume the government as sponsored the invention of everything. You're the one assuming I'm saying that. I believe someone once said -
Quote
I find it humorous how people have these preset formed partisan profiles in their minds and are so flippantly applied without much thought.

Yes I think the government can influence demand in a marketplace. Is there more to that than a yes or no question?

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #97 on: September 27, 2013, 02:07:45 PM »
I'm saying that there wouldn't even be an iPhone without the government.

I'm sorry, but this all reminds me of the "You didn't build that" Obama quote.

All of the infrastructure exists because of the demand. Government doesn't lay down a superhighway or pave a road into the forest. No, they are made going directly to Wal-Mart and other stores only where there first exists a consumer demand. Which means that just because it has used something that was paid for by a federal grant does not mean it would not have existed, funded and created its own, privately.

So yes, we absolutely would have an iPhone today given the demand for it to be there. Where govt steps in, of course the market will use that to its advantage. That doesn't mean govt gets sole credit for all things existing because it was used in the process.

Quote
Yes I think the government can influence demand in a marketplace. Is there more to that than a yes or no question?

I didn't say "influence". I asked if you think a government could create genuine demand in the marketplace? Do you think the govt can somehow make millions of adults voluntarily purchase a product like the iPhone?

brewer12345

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #98 on: September 27, 2013, 02:55:09 PM »
That's not meant as put down, but market intervention from a central government is a top down authoritarian directive. It's certainly not a bottom up grassroots one.

"We do it all the time" is not a means that it is just (in my opinion) or accurate. Statistics are misused all the time. "Lies, damn lies and statistics" was his quote. I think the answer to my last question is obvious. If an entity is taking the moral high ground to govern, it should accurately represent, the only way to do that is to sample everyone on a voluntary basis, instead of system run by a handful of officials representing certain interests.

So did the military proliferate that technology it? No, a genuine free market did.

Whether you believe in it or not, the current success on an iPhone is a pure free market phenomenon. Now if there are billion dollar government contracts for millions of iphones, I can see where that market was distorted. But as it is, its a pure consumer driven market. And you can disagree, but there is more value in that approach, than a top down one.

You keep moving the goal posts. First you asked -

Quote
Look at consumer technology, what government department or agency do we have to thank there?

I answer that we have plenty of government departments and agencies to thank (particularly military). Then you decide to move the goal posts to proliferation. Fine there wouldn't even be a market for the phones to proliferate within without the government helping with defining what infrastructure would be necessary to support a mobile phone using society. Laws to determine where towers can be, GPS satellites for maps, 3G came from the International Telecommunication Union. You appear to think in absolutes here and refuse to accept any evidence that your free market concept is a fairy tale. Actual real life relies on both markets, private industry, and governments to function and prosper.

Whether you believe it or not you have no evidence that the iphone is a product of the pure free market. It is a product of tons of work both by individuals, private industry, and governments. To think otherwise is narrow-minded and disingenuous.

Can you spare the adjectives like narrow minded and disingenuous? If you have to use those, then maybe the argument you're laying out isn't all there.

I'm not moving the goal posts, you are focusing on a side issue based on assumption. You assume nothing would ever be invented without a government sponsorship.

Do you think government creates demand in the marketplace?

How are you not moving the goal posts? I've established that consumer technology products have the government to thank for the generation of the technology itself which in response to your first point. Then you change the point to be about the proliferation and I then established that the infrastructure supporting these devices (don't forget the roads these are shipped on) has been provided by the government therefore the proliferation is also supported by the government. Now I need to prove that the government creates demand in a marketplace? Fine. Don't like the joke, then how about this article?

How is that a side issue? You're stating that the success of the iPhone is based on a pure free market. I'm saying that there wouldn't even be an iPhone without the government. That's why I'm using an adjective like disingenuous. You know better than to believe that the iPhone originated from the free market given that its infrastructure and component technology came from government initiatives. That's distinctly not a side issue and is the direct issue I'm stating.

Don't put arguments in my mouth, I never said I assume the government as sponsored the invention of everything. You're the one assuming I'm saying that. I believe someone once said -
Quote
I find it humorous how people have these preset formed partisan profiles in their minds and are so flippantly applied without much thought.

Yes I think the government can influence demand in a marketplace. Is there more to that than a yes or no question?

What in the hell does this "teaching the pig to sing" exercise have to do with the practical implications or personal preparations required upon a gubmint shutdown?

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Anyone else stockpiling money due to the potentially looming gov shutdown?
« Reply #99 on: September 27, 2013, 03:00:29 PM »
I guess you can't ignore my comments brewer?

It's called having a discussion...if you don't like it, move on.