Another car thread

[diffusate]

I've read a ton of threads here on picking the right car, but things are always changing and I'm feeling a bit at a loss. We were rear ended yesterday in our trusty 2007 Prius and it will most likely be totaled (happy Christmas to us).

We are pretty much the farthest thing from car people. As long as it gets there safely and doesn't cause any trouble we are happy. The Prius fit this perfectly. Multiple dings and scrapes, torn seats, but never felt bad about it. Kept up with maintenance and it never needed anything other than tires and brakes in 100k miles.

We could just get another similar generation Prius, but back of the envelope shows that per year cost would be about the same for a newer version with a longer lifespan. And maybe a newer used car has better safety features? It also seems hard to navigate finding one in good mechanical shape. Certainly can get pre purchase inspections, but so many of the cars available have rebuilt/salvage titles or other issues. Basically we just want the option that will be the most frugal and trouble free in the long term.

Current NW around $2.1 million. Semi-retired on a budget of about $65k a year. Cash flow not an issue, but really hate the idea of spending anything at all on a car despite it being necessary where we live.

Happy holidays and thanks for any advice!

[RWD]

In theory for long term an EV should have the lowest total cost of ownership.

[diffusate]

In theory for long term an EV should have the lowest total cost of ownership.

I doesn't seem like it though when looking at specific cars that are actually available. I'm open to it but don't see any good specific options.

[RWD]

In theory for long term an EV should have the lowest total cost of ownership.

I doesn't seem like it though when looking at specific cars that are actually available. I'm open to it but don't see any good specific options.

Well it's going to depend of course on your specific use case. Like how many miles you drive annually, how often you road trip, and how long you keep the car. Estimates vary by source, but I've read expectations of saving $500-1000/year on maintenance alone compared to an ICE vehicle. Every 10k miles you'll spend about $200-300 less on energy than fuel (compared to Prius). A car with more safety features may save you money on insurance (though that is not EV exclusive). So over 100k miles and 15 years you could be looking at $10k-18k in savings. They do have a higher up-front purchase cost, but depending on your specifics it could make financial sense.

Depending on your needs you may also consider a used EV. Most have lower range (about 150 miles or less) but they can be very affordable city cars. Chevy Bolt (~250 mile range), Hyundai Ioniq (the old one), VW e-Golf, Kia Soul EV, and Nissan Leaf.

For new EVs take a look at the VW ID.4, Hyundai Ioniq 5/6, Kia EV6, Volvo EX30, Ford Mach-E, Nissan Ariya, Hyundai Kona EV, and Kia Niro EV.

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

What does your driving look like, in terms of typical daily miles driven, number of days a week driving, and infrequent (road trip or such) use?

Depending on what driving you do, different vehicles make the most sense.

In theory for long term an EV should have the lowest total cost of ownership.

Meanwhile, in practice, EVs, PHEVs, and efficient HEVs all seem to work out around the same.  It simply depends on what driving one does.

[diffusate]

In theory for long term an EV should have the lowest total cost of ownership.

I doesn't seem like it though when looking at specific cars that are actually available. I'm open to it but don't see any good specific options.

Well it's going to depend of course on your specific use case. Like how many miles you drive annually, how often you road trip, and how long you keep the car. Estimates vary by source, but I've read expectations of saving $500-1000/year on maintenance alone compared to an ICE vehicle. Every 10k miles you'll spend about $200-300 less on energy than fuel (compared to Prius). A car with more safety features may save you money on insurance (though that is not EV exclusive). So over 100k miles and 15 years you could be looking at $10k-18k in savings. They do have a higher up-front purchase cost, but depending on your specifics it could make financial sense.

Depending on your needs you may also consider a used EV. Most have lower range (about 150 miles or less) but they can be very affordable city cars. Chevy Bolt (~250 mile range), Hyundai Ioniq (the old one), VW e-Golf, Kia Soul EV, and Nissan Leaf.

For new EVs take a look at the VW ID.4, Hyundai Ioniq 5/6, Kia EV6, Volvo EX30, Ford Mach-E, Nissan Ariya, Hyundai Kona EV, and Kia Niro EV.

That's what I have read as well, but in practice driving an older Prius for more than a decade my annual maintenance has been about $200 so there's no way I could save $500-1000. Thanks for the tips!

[Dave1442397]

I wouldn't buy an EV right now. Technology is changing quickly, and when solid-state batteries are standard, current EVs will be obsolete.

The new Prius is a fantastic car if you want a hybrid.

Here's a balanced look at EVs, where he makes some good points about cost of ownership, maintenance, etc: https://youtu.be/5U4jI6xb6jg?si=NDAk7euHcKtN1KUZ

[diffusate]

What does your driving look like, in terms of typical daily miles driven, number of days a week driving, and infrequent (road trip or such) use?

Depending on what driving you do, different vehicles make the most sense.

In theory for long term an EV should have the lowest total cost of ownership.

Meanwhile, in practice, EVs, PHEVs, and efficient HEVs all seem to work out around the same.  It simply depends on what driving one does.

Mostly around town less than 50 miles a day. Once or twice a week out to nature somewhere, usually 100-150 miles round trip. Every month or two a longer road trip. We do have an old camper van that's not very reliable but could be used for the longer trip, so actually starting to seriously consider a low range EV.

[RWD]

What does your driving look like, in terms of typical daily miles driven, number of days a week driving, and infrequent (road trip or such) use?

Depending on what driving you do, different vehicles make the most sense.

In theory for long term an EV should have the lowest total cost of ownership.

Meanwhile, in practice, EVs, PHEVs, and efficient HEVs all seem to work out around the same.  It simply depends on what driving one does.

Mostly around town less than 50 miles a day. Once or twice a week out to nature somewhere, usually 100-150 miles round trip. Every month or two a longer road trip. We do have an old camper van that's not very reliable but could be used for the longer trip, so actually starting to seriously consider a low range EV.

Take a look at the original Ioniq. The 2020 model Hyundai Ioniq has a range of 170 miles (increased from 124 miles of the previous year's model) and has a median list price of about $20k (cheapest ones $17k-$18k). It's also one of the most efficient EVs of any brand/segment/year. Chevy Bolt is also an option and slightly cheaper despite the higher range (238 miles).

EVs with a range around/under 100 miles can be had for under $10k, but that probably would only satisfy your around-town use case.

[Chris Pascale]

Old family friend came to Christmas get together. He asked if I want his 35-year-old Corvette on the nephew discount. On the surface, yeah, definitely, so as my wife was putting down a plate of asparagus I announced, 'Uncle Frank said if we take his Corvette he'll come over and clean our house once a week.'

He didn't say no.

I'll update you guys with a photo if I wind up re-learning how to drive stick.

[GilesMM]

Old family friend came to Christmas get together. He asked if I want his 35-year-old Corvette on the nephew discount. On the surface, yeah, definitely, so as my wife was putting down a plate of asparagus I announced, 'Uncle Frank said if we take his Corvette he'll come over and clean our house once a week.'

He didn't say no.

I'll update you guys with a photo if I wind up re-learning how to drive stick.

This is awesome! I’ll take an ‘88 Corvette stick over an EV any day. The Chevy is good for 154 mph if you are, uh, running late for church services or something. Post a pic.

[LD_TAndK]

...

Take a look at the original Ioniq. The 2020 model Hyundai Ioniq has a range of 170 miles (increased from 124 miles of the previous year's model) and has a median list price of about $20k (cheapest ones $17k-$18k). It's also one of the most efficient EVs of any brand/segment/year.

...

Note it's also eligible for a $4000 federal tax credit. The Plug-In hybrid version of the Ioniq is also eligible for the tax credit. 29 miles electric range, 52 MPG on gasoline. We bought a 2019 Ioniq PHEV this year and it is a phenomenal value.

[Bartlebooth]

Old family friend came to Christmas get together. He asked if I want his 35-year-old Corvette on the nephew discount. On the surface, yeah, definitely, so as my wife was putting down a plate of asparagus I announced, 'Uncle Frank said if we take his Corvette he'll come over and clean our house once a week.'

He didn't say no.

I'll update you guys with a photo if I wind up re-learning how to drive stick.

What is implied by nephew discount?  Doesn't seem to be Google-able slang.

[Paper Chaser]

What does your driving look like, in terms of typical daily miles driven, number of days a week driving, and infrequent (road trip or such) use?

Depending on what driving you do, different vehicles make the most sense.

In theory for long term an EV should have the lowest total cost of ownership.

Meanwhile, in practice, EVs, PHEVs, and efficient HEVs all seem to work out around the same.  It simply depends on what driving one does.

Mostly around town less than 50 miles a day. Once or twice a week out to nature somewhere, usually 100-150 miles round trip. Every month or two a longer road trip. We do have an old camper van that's not very reliable but could be used for the longer trip, so actually starting to seriously consider a low range EV.

This use case shouts PHEV to me, although a standard hybrid isn't a bad match either. If you do go with another Prius, consider that the Gen 3 cars with the 1.8L engine (2010-2015) are known to have water pump failures that go unnoticed and result in head gasket failures.

For used, the older Hyundai Ioniq EV or PHEV seem pretty great. Ford's CMax and Fusion hybrids and PHEVs are also inexpensive and highly reliable with a powertrain that shares design and tech with Toyota's Prius.

If you're considering brand new, the new Prius Prime (PHEV) seems really great. It offers 44 miles of EV range, and starts under $33k before any tax credits.

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

I wouldn't buy an EV right now. Technology is changing quickly, and when solid-state batteries are standard, current EVs will be obsolete.

Solid state batteries have been coming "any year now, reallllllly soon, just another minute... hold on, it's... almost... hooooooooodl...., any moment..." for a decade now.  If current tech meets your needs, and you need a car (say, your existing car just got totaled), I don't see holding for vaporware that may or may not show up as a reasonable thing.

Mostly around town less than 50 miles a day. Once or twice a week out to nature somewhere, usually 100-150 miles round trip. Every month or two a longer road trip. We do have an old camper van that's not very reliable but could be used for the longer trip, so actually starting to seriously consider a low range EV.

Agree that a PHEV is a good option here.  Either a Gen 2 Volt, or the new (longer ranged) Prius Prime would be really good options for your driving needs.  I don't think a pure EV makes a lot of sense for that sort of driving.

[Dave1442397]

I wouldn't buy an EV right now. Technology is changing quickly, and when solid-state batteries are standard, current EVs will be obsolete.

Solid state batteries have been coming "any year now, reallllllly soon, just another minute... hold on, it's... almost... hooooooooodl...., any moment..." for a decade now.  If current tech meets your needs, and you need a car (say, your existing car just got totaled), I don't see holding for vaporware that may or may not show up as a reasonable thing.

Mostly around town less than 50 miles a day. Once or twice a week out to nature somewhere, usually 100-150 miles round trip. Every month or two a longer road trip. We do have an old camper van that's not very reliable but could be used for the longer trip, so actually starting to seriously consider a low range EV.

Agree that a PHEV is a good option here.  Either a Gen 2 Volt, or the new (longer ranged) Prius Prime would be really good options for your driving needs.  I don't think a pure EV makes a lot of sense for that sort of driving.

I wouldn't call solid state batteries 'vaporware'.

The Toyota Motor Corporation has always been known for its commitment to innovation and has continued to lead the charge in most automotive developments in the 21st century, most recently the solid-state battery technology. The company is working towards bringing solid-state batteries to the market as early as the mid-2020s, which will be a significant milestone in the EV industry. The company has been toiling on this technology since 2012 and created a team of over 200 dedicated engineers and as a result, has over 1,000 solid-state battery patents.

Toyota's target is to get their solid-state batteries into their hybrid vehicles first before their all-electric offerings. Toyota has a target of about 700 kilometers (435 miles) of range on a full charge which seems to be the key advantage of the solid-state technology over traditional lithium-ion batteries.

[RWD]

The Toyota Motor Corporation has always been known for its commitment to innovation and has continued to lead the charge in most automotive developments in the 21st century, most recently the solid-state battery technology.

Toyota has been demonstrably anti-EV innovation...
https://insideevs.com/news/534262/all-ev-plans-threaten-japan/
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-hydrogen.html
https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-anti-ev-propaganda-in-japan/
https://insideevs.com/news/547809/toyota-team-japan/
https://insideevs.com/news/620906/toyota-ranked-among-oil-companies-anti-climate-policy/

Don't fool yourself. Toyota touting future solid-state batteries is just a way for them to kick the can down the road.

Also, even ignoring EVs I would be hard pressed to call Toyota a company of innovation where they basically put out the exact same car for 15 years. Example: from 2006 to 2023 the Lexus IS 350 went from 306 hp and 21 mpg to 311 hp and 23 mpg.

[SmashYourSmartPhone]

I wouldn't call solid state batteries 'vaporware'.

Are they shipping?  Can I buy them?  Are they available in anything beyond a research lab and press releases?  Has anyone actually seen prototypes of them meeting anything resembling claimed range?

No?

Then I stand by what I called them.  A press release about some promising lithium battery development is a dime a dozen, and I'm sure you could automate them with some LLM - every 6 months, release some new gibberish that journalists will chew up and regurgitate.  Good for a stock bump, certainly.

Toyota does not have any solid state electrolyte batteries shipping today, and as I read their road map, won't until at least 2027 (though they're working on some other interesting things that they claim will ship sooner).

The Toyota Motor Corporation has always been known for its commitment to innovation and has continued to lead the charge in most automotive developments in the 21st century, most recently the solid-state battery technology. The company is working towards bringing solid-state batteries to the market as early as the mid-2020s, which will be a significant milestone in the EV industry. The company has been toiling on this technology since 2012 and created a team of over 200 dedicated engineers and as a result, has over 1,000 solid-state battery patents.

Are you asking ChatGPT about this or something?  It's a bunch of well crafted nonsense that says nothing of interest while hedging it well.  Or is that just straight out of one of their press releases?

Patents don't mean much, IMO.  You can patent all sorts of nonsense without actually being able to do it.

Toyota's target is to get their solid-state batteries into their hybrid vehicles first before their all-electric offerings. Toyota has a target of about 700 kilometers (435 miles) of range on a full charge which seems to be the key advantage of the solid-state technology over traditional lithium-ion batteries.

"Target."  As in "Dream, hope, press release."  Not "Demonstrated capability."  And... the modest density increases aren't really any of the exciting bits about solid state electrolyte either.

"Not buying a car that meets your needs now because Toyota has promised something cool in the future, and already slipped on their dates for delivering it" doesn't seem wise to me.

[diffusate]

Thanks for the advice everyone. We are actually leaning towards getting a 2020-2022 Bolt with a Lemon-branded title from the battery fiasco. After the $4k used EV tax credit (and sales tax exemption) they're about $12-16k with low miles and renewed warranty. We would use our van for longer road trips. Seems like a bargain.

[RWD]

Thanks for the advice everyone. We are actually leaning towards getting a 2020-2022 Bolt with a Lemon-branded title from the battery fiasco. After the $4k used EV tax credit (and sales tax exemption) they're about $12-16k with low miles and renewed warranty. We would use our van for longer road trips. Seems like a bargain.

Should be a solid option for your use cases. We have friends with a Bolt EV (also got a big discount due to the battery recall) and they've been quite happy with it. They also own a Tesla, so it isn't their only experience with an EV.

[Chris Pascale]

Old family friend came to Christmas get together. He asked if I want his 35-year-old Corvette on the nephew discount. On the surface, yeah, definitely, so as my wife was putting down a plate of asparagus I announced, 'Uncle Frank said if we take his Corvette he'll come over and clean our house once a week.'

He didn't say no.

I'll update you guys with a photo if I wind up re-learning how to drive stick.

What is implied by nephew discount?  Doesn't seem to be Google-able slang.

He said the best offer he's received was $8,500 and wouldn't take it. Knowing him, he'd sell it to me for a little less. Like, he wouldn't want to sell it at that price to a stranger, but would be pleased to think that the kid who burst into spontaneous laughter when the car went from 10-60mph in a millisecond with the top down now did the same from the driver's seat.

In the end, though, I think my next vehicle is the one that my 12-year-old will be driving when she gets her license. After that, the big splurge might be a 5-year-old Subaru.

[alsoknownasDean]

A new hybrid Corolla, Camry or Prius isn't a terrible option in your financial situation if you plan on buying for the longer term.

[diffusate]

Just an update for everyone! Finally came home with a 2022 Bolt 2lt with 5000 miles for a total of $17k including all taxes and registration (after tax credit). One of the Chevy buybacks. The newest and fanciest car I've ever owned for sure. Already installed my own level 2 charger at home.

With the tax credit and sales tax exemption these are a steal right now. The equivalent Prius would be 5-7 years old and have 60k miles.

[RWD]

Just an update for everyone! Finally came home with a 2022 Bolt 2lt with 5000 miles for a total of $17k including all taxes and registration (after tax credit). One of the Chevy buybacks. The newest and fanciest car I've ever owned for sure. Already installed my own level 2 charger at home.

With the tax credit and sales tax exemption these are a steal right now. The equivalent Prius would be 5-7 years old and have 60k miles.

Congrats! Sounds like a good deal.

[baconschteam]

Awesome!! Congrats. I just purchased a 2022 Kia Niro EV this past weekend for $18k and it's the newest and fanciest car I've owned also. Also coming from a 2nd gen Prius. I love it! I was thinking about the Bolt but went with the Niro because my wife liked the size better. Both great cars.

[diffusate]

Congrats to you too! Feel bad for the people that bought EVs a couple years ago but it's nice to benefit from the aggressive depreciation.

Awesome!! Congrats. I just purchased a 2022 Kia Niro EV this past weekend for $18k and it's the newest and fanciest car I've owned also. Also coming from a 2nd gen Prius. I love it! I was thinking about the Bolt but went with the Niro because my wife liked the size better. Both great cars.