Author Topic: Am I a douchebag?  (Read 13486 times)

DoubleDown

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Am I a douchebag?
« on: October 15, 2012, 01:58:29 PM »
I (think) I am approaching FI pretty soon or am already there, and want to ask the community what they would do in my situation -- or if I'm just a scared douchebag.

I am: Married, 46 years old, three children (12 and under).

My Income: $155k
Her Income: $55k
Net Worth (i.e., after subtracting liabilities, mortgages, etc.): approx. $950,000 ($300k in home equity, the rest in 401k's, IRAs, mutual funds, etc.)

We live in a high income/high cost area, but could move to a lower cost area and buy a nice house in cash for about $200,000. That would leave a $750k 'stash to live on. Plus as early as age 56 (ten years from now), I will also start to receive a pension for life (albeit reduced at that "early" age, I can get more if I wait later to take it), then Social Security one day. So there's more non-investment income coming when I reach my late 50's or early 60s.

If things go as planned, and Lord willing, I intended to call it quits in about two years, where net worth would likely increase to $1.2 million through additional savings, increased home equity, the magic of compounding interest, etc. That's an additional $250,000 in two years. (Yes, I've been f*ing led astray all these years by all those financial planning doomsayers who said you need $200 billion to retire comfortably and not worry).

But would you make the leap now? I like (but don't love) my job, same with wife. The thing holding me back is walking away during what are likely my highest earning years and the chance to significantly add to the savings/comfort zone in just a couple of years. Or am I being a total douchebag by not making the jump now? What would you do?

I understand this is a great "problem" to have, please don't hate on me.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 02:07:15 PM »
I am assuming you are referring to the idea that your job could be going to someone more in need (ie young people starting out on the labour market)?

For what it's worth, this youngster here doesn't think you're a douchebag. Do you value your additional two years of freedom enough to forego future earnings? You can also reduce your load by going part-time, taking longer unpaid vacations, or a combination of both. Don't let anyone tell you how to live your life.


jpo

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 02:08:29 PM »
What's your annual spend?

Richard3

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 02:18:12 PM »
Usually my rule of thumb is that if you have to ask then you're probably in the wrong. However, getting paid for working and not quitting the first moment it's theoretically possible to do so hardly qualifies. Your job would probably just go to some random middle aged consumer drone so you're not being a douchebag at all IMO.

So, to the main question:

750k produces $22k per annum at a 3% withdrawal rate. $1.2m produces $36k at the same 3%.

How much money do you plan to spend? How much do you value the extra safety / spending? Do you have any burning dreams that are saying "do me now!"?

DoubleDown

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 02:34:39 PM »
Thanks for the thoughtful replies.

Current monthly spending equals about $5,600/month, or  $67,200 annually. $2,600 of that monthly amount is mortgage, the rest ($3000/month or $36,000 annually) is groceries, utilities, charity, kids' braces, Tivo, gas for two cars, and everything else. We could admittedly adopt some of the mustachian principles discovered here and cut costs if needed, although we do not live an extravagant life by any means.

If it matters, I forecast our "retired" budget with no mortgage (just property taxes/insurance) to be about $3600/month (a new added expense would be having to purchase health insurance privately).

I'm leaning towards doing a gradual move towards retirement -- going to half time in a year or so, and commuting from low cost area to this area just one day a week or something like that. But thanks for all your valued input!

Also, I should have perhaps included that not all of the net worth would likely pan out, since if I use a realtor to sell the houses (one primary residence and two rentals), we'd give up a fair amount in the transactions -- probably about 75k in total.

jpo

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2012, 02:38:58 PM »
At that spending level, I would say no, your portfolio is not ready. Depends on the pension and SS though, how much they are and if you care to count on those.

www.firecalc.com

grantmeaname

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 04:03:30 PM »
Being cautious (and rightfully so, I'd say) is hardly enough to qualify you as a douchebag. Plus, if you follow the direction I think you're heading in as of the most recent post, you can try a more gradual switch into retirement and see what you like to do with your free time, whether you'd like to keep consulting in your career field, and all those other things that being a part-timer will let you explore.

Jamesqf

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 05:27:31 PM »
I like (but don't love) my job, same with wife.

Err...  I think you might want to rephrase that, especially if wife is likely to read the post :-)

okits

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 05:30:10 PM »
"Douchebag", no.  "Scared-y cat", well, that's a matter of opinion. ;)

Personally I would add to the cushion a little bit. Either the extra year or two you mentioned, or the transition to part time if you're a little more adventuresome. Congratulations to you and your wife for achieving such a great situation for your family!  Can't imagine why anyone would hate on you for that.

fidgiegirl

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 05:49:17 PM »
I think sometimes the language on MMM clouds the meaning.  I don't really get what is meant by "douchebag."  To me it's a jerk.  To you it sounds like just someone who is scared?  What are you really asking here?

I think you are fine if you want to keep working, but do you?

jawisco

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2012, 09:31:50 PM »
I think you should continue to work and work towards getting your expenses down, but I do think you should plan on doing it in two years and not let yourself be fearful.  You are likely perfectly fine to retire in two years, but if something changes, you will be able to figure it out as you go.

N

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2012, 12:48:07 AM »
Can I just object to the use of the word douchebag?
I mean, Im all for swearing, but Im very tired of words used to describe women and their parts as derogatory. Technically, a douchebag isnt a woman or her parts, but it is intended to clean a woman's parts, so its annoying that its used to call someone disgusting and filthy.

Just sayin.

N

offroad

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2012, 01:39:52 AM »
Stop thinking retirement. Think changing your job to something you love. Some work you absolutely are deeply in love with, to use your life's energy on doing for the remaining years on the planet. You now have the financial means to do that.

No one lives forever. Widower here.

happy

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2012, 05:21:54 AM »
Congratulations on accumulating your stash!

Without the mortgage,  for a family of five, I think 36k is pretty good, although as you say you could probably shave a bit more off.  Keep in mind you have a decade of more of child dependents and teenagers are not cheap! On the other hand you will have some additional income (I'm not sure how much) in your late 50s onwards.

I think if you were red hot keen  and determined to retire now you could probably manage it. Personally in your shoes I would keep working those extra couple of years and nail it with a bit of breathing space.  Another strategy is to work only enough to cover your expenses (67K), leaving the stash to compound and on such a large sum this should be quite a tidy sum each year (5% of 750K = 37.5k). This might be fewer hours or as offroad says you could do something you'd love to do that doesn't pay as well. Its all good, you're in a great place, well done :)


tooqk4u22

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2012, 08:55:55 AM »
You either (a) don't have enough if you maintain your current spending levels with paid of mortgage or (b) do have enough if you signifcantly cut your spending.

The answer to (a) is obvious because it is your current state.

The answer to (b) is you need to implement the spending reductions while you have an income to see if you can realistically cut as much as needed and are also satisfied with the post-cut lifestyle. 

Done by Forty

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2012, 09:13:36 AM »
I'd work towards reducing your spending now, while you and your familly evaluate this new life you'd be leading (e.g. - possibly with 1 fewer car, more meals in, perhaps no cable, lower home energy consumption, etc.).  If you find yourselves loving it and wanting more of the same, with more free time, you might think about taking the leap. 

If you hate it, there are always more jobs out there...

trammatic

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2012, 11:01:50 AM »
Consider cash flow before and after.  MMM has a rental house or two which pays for his monthly expenditures, so that he doesn't have to touch stock investments.  Are there other sorts of investments you'd be comfortable with that might generate some cash flow with a bit of work?  I think all said and done, he might have 600k in properties?

James

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2012, 11:17:00 AM »
You are not a douchebag, you just don't have a plan.  You are doing very well, but haven't figured out how this plays out and don't have a plan for how much you need to be FI and what you want to do when you reach that.

So start with how much you need to be FI.  What is your comfortable withdrawal rate?  Are you willing to withdraw principle due to your pension options?  What level can you commit to in your spending plans?  What buffer do you need to feel comfortable?  How easy would it be to generate additional income if you retire and then change your mind or plans?  What are your plans for the kids education?  Etc.

Just line up this list and all the other questions you can find and start to figure out answers.  But you are doing very well and have lined yourself up to have lots of options, good work!

DoubleDown

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2012, 01:30:37 PM »
Wow, thanks to everyone for the great replies and insight -- and entertainment value too!

I've actually planned quite a few scenarios as to how I could make this play out, and was intentionally vague to a degree in order to generate new/unbiased ideas -- and mostly to try not to bore everybody too much with all the details.

Part of the dilemma of reducing spending in order to try things out just comes with the territory of where we live (Northern Virginia/Washington DC). Costs will definitely, automatically go down with a move out of this area, but we won't realize that reduction until/unless we make the big leap. Yes, I could cut out some expenses like Tivo for $10/month, but it will be a drop in the bucket in comparison to the big costs, like the $2500 mortgage. Plus I like Tivo.

I'm inclined to follow my original plan/instinct, which several of you have given support for, which is to keep the "golden handcuffs" on for another 1-2 years, accumulate a bit more so I can leave without feeling like we're skating on the edge, then drop to half-time for another year or so, then move on entirely. And yes, I absolutely do intend to do other part time work after leaving the 9-5 job, things like MMM espouses that are engaging, self-directed, and largely for self-fulfillment, if not for a little extra income on the side.

Thanks again, good luck to everyone in their quests! And any new ideas or feedback are always welcome.

TomTX

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2012, 04:17:32 PM »
Could you reduce expenses and have a happier meantime life if you wife quits her job and focuses full-time on the household? Less eating out, less tax burden, et cetera.

Wendyimhome

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2012, 10:11:32 PM »
With three young kids and 20 years to go until (possible) social security benefits kick in, I don't think you have nearly enough to pack it in.  You'll also want to perfect those Mustachian money saving techniques before taking the plunge, whenever you do.

The douche element that I see with many people who contemplate retiring early is the failure to consider what, if anything, you will have left for your children if you quit early and live off savings for four decades.  I don't feel that any person has a right to expect an inheritance.  However, in this day and age, where it is fairly clear that our children will NOT have a better future (or even as good a future) as we have, we owe it to them to stick it out with jobs we like in order to ensure financial help down the road.

I understand the earlier point that leaving the job market opens a new opportunity for someone looking for a job now, but you would do your children more long-term good by continuing your earnings and ensuring a better safety cushion for all.

dragoncar

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2012, 02:19:17 AM »
Can I just object to the use of the word douchebag?


But the gender-neutral "enemabag" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

$67,200 annually ... we do not live an extravagant life by any means.

You're not a douchebag, but I think you'd be surprised at the various means by which one can measure extravagance.


alandjackson

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2012, 09:30:54 AM »
Something else to consider and possibly set something aside for is assisting with college finances and/or helping/paying for things like weddings).

Also, going part time sounds like a great plan if possible.  If you could find a lower paying part time job in the new area with the cheaper house, you could try it out without being completely dependent on investment income.

jpo

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2012, 10:23:20 AM »
However, in this day and age, where it is fairly clear that our children will NOT have a better future (or even as good a future) as we have, we owe it to them to stick it out with jobs we like in order to ensure financial help down the road.

I understand the earlier point that leaving the job market opens a new opportunity for someone looking for a job now, but you would do your children more long-term good by continuing your earnings and ensuring a better safety cushion for all.
Are you sure about that? You might want to do some googling on "economic outpatient care".

DoubleDown

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2012, 10:57:18 AM »
Ha, "enemabag" comment +1

Yes, I would only consider retiring early by following the principles stated here. Meaning, I want to do it in a way where I am not touching the principal, living only off the 4% SWR.  Maybe dip into it only as needed for unexpected life events, college, weddings, etc.

Regarding the wife and her working or not working -- I continue to visit the threads about "getting your partner on board"  -- She is not yet completely converted ;-)

Since some were indicating there's not enough yet for early retirement with 3 pre-teens, here's my more detailed plan. Please let me know if you think this is feasible:

- Work about two more years full time. At that time, total 401k/IRA  = $650k, non-IRA funds = $125k, home equity (primary residence + 2 rental homes) = $440k

- Sell houses, move to lower cost area approximately 70 miles away. Primary residence in lower-cost area will be approximately $190k, leaving us a total of about $300k in remaining cash + non-IRA funds. New monthly budget should be about $3600/month, with no mortgage. That includes $10/month for tivo

- I'm blessed with a job where I can go to half-time, earning $75k per year. I will drive the 70 miles once per week, work one day, spend one night overnight in a hotel, and drive home following work the next day. Not a bad deal overall for $75k per year and 5-day weekends, in my book. Wife can quit entirely, or work part/full time if she wants

- At 75k per year (half time), I should net about $4000 per month (after taxes, commuting and hotel costs, 401k contributions, insurance, etc.). We can easily live off that (or less), in the new area, hopefully putting away even more.

- After doing the half-time gig for one year, quit entirely. We would then live off the non-401k/IRA assets ($300k or more) for the next 8 years. In reality, I'd try to keep $50k of this money intact after 8 years, to help pay for college for kids. Ex-wife (my "BFM") has to pay half of college too.

- After 8 years (age 56), 401k/IRA assets = $1 million. Then I can start taking some combination of pension payments (approx. $1200/month) and 72(t) withdrawals from 401k. If I wait on pension payments until I'm 60, they'd go up to $1800/month. So I'd gauge that as the time approaches. At age 62 can start SS payments (approx $1400/month in today's dollars), or wait for more

- Even if I start taking pension and SS at the earliest possible age, they'd be $2600+ per month in today's dollars (both are indexed to go up with inflation -- at least in theory)

This all feels like enough cushion to me, but am I missing the boat? Will teenagers make me poor and I'm not considering that our budget will have to go up?

grantmeaname

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2012, 11:39:51 AM »
Teenagers only make you poor if you spend a ton of money on them. If you don't, you will not have failed as a parent. I have the best parents in the world and I put myself through college with just a little help...

On the whole your plan looks pretty good, and I like that you have found a compromise that lets you feel like you're neither deprived nor working unnecessarily long for a huge safety margin.

happy

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2012, 03:32:42 PM »
I think teenagers cost about the same as long as you are careful. When you have teenagers a number of costs like childcare, babysitting etc, and the cost of parent time spent in direct care start to disappear. I am a single parent with no family close by  so  I was paying out substantial amounts for childcare, which has now disappeared. Also when they are little suddenly you need more bedrooms,  more beds, more linen etc, but by the time they are teens you've already invested in that extra infrastructure.  But as teens they are more autonomous and more difficult to take charge of just as an example:  you can turn off the lights with children but teenagers don't respond so well to nagging, and can just turn them back on. Clothes now cost the same as adults, and they eat a lot of food. They have  wants with regard to mobile phones and internet.  They start driving and want the car and tell you about their friends whose parents bought them a Lexus for their birthday. Hopefully they don't crash the car (more$$). They may want to go out for a meal with friends etc. Really now costwise I am supporting 3 adults (teens 14,17)and they could be likened to a spouse who is not completely on board with MMM.....

This where one hope's one's frugal attitudes  and teaching have rubbed off over the years. Neither of my teens are overly obsessed with brand-name clothes, probably because I'm not either. One of my friends who is obsessed about fashion was complaining that her daughter wouldn't wear standard track pants because they were "daggy"...and I had to bite my tongue and stop myself from saying "Well I wonder where she got that from?" Don't get me wrong, they have clothes of sufficient style that they fit in, but I use the same principle as I do with myself at work professionally - go for the minimum you can get away with without being socially out of place.

Developmentally their peer group is really important, as is belonging, and one has to be careful that one's frugalism doesn't cause them to be socially isolated or ostracised.

If they have a part-time job this can help defray costs and teach them the how much stuff costs in terms of time worked.

I think the plan you have outlined is good. If you work 2 more years your oldest will be 14 and you will a taste of the cost, although I think 14 is just the start of it.  At that point you can also reassess. The part-time year is also a good idea, again, if you find it tight you can keep doing that for longer. I have a few scenarios in mind and one of them included commuting to work 2 days and stay overnight just like you are thinking.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 05:49:30 PM by happy »

Bakari

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2012, 05:12:29 PM »
They have  wants with regard to mobile phones and internet.  They start driving and want the car and tell you about their friends whose parents bought them a Lexus for their birthday. Hopefully they don't crash the car (more$$). They may want to go out for a meal with friends etc.

Not only does making them pay for all that save the parent money, its good for them too.
It doesn't matter how much excess money the parents have, every teen should pay for those things if they want them.

TomTX

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2012, 06:24:58 AM »
Something else to consider and possibly set something aside for is assisting with college finances and/or helping/paying for things like weddings).

My wife and I paid for our wedding, which happened the day we graduated college. Total cost was under $500, including church/officiant rental, cake, punch, finger food, gold wedding rings, tux, wedding dress, photos and music. Had well over 100 guests.

My wife's parents did pay for the dress (under $100.)
My parents did organize a small dinner afterward at a non-fancy restaurant above and beyond the $500 - I didn't find out about it until a couple days before the wedding.

Cake: Grocery store sheet cake. They did a nice job. Tastier than some stupidly expensive wedding cakes I've had - certainly fresher.
Punch: Made it myself. Sherbert, frozen fruit juice and ginger ale. Used my Mom's punch bowl.
Finger food: Made it myself. Mostly veggie trays.
Gold wedding rings: Okay, gold was cheaper then - but I bypassed the jewelry stores and went directly to a supplier. MAJOR savings, not much above melt value for plain bands.
Photos: Friends took photos. Everyone has a cameraphone these days - even easier.
Music: Mix tape!
Decorations: Wife and bridesmaids made them.
Dress: Yes, an "actual" wedding dress from an actual bridal store. Longer story for that one.

Sandi_k

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2012, 04:52:18 PM »
OK, the elephant in the room:

Medical care.

What do you do if you need in-home car due to a disabling accident, such as a car crash? Or if one of your teens get a concussion and needs PT playing football in school?

If you have medical care dialed in regardless of working vs. not working, I'd do two more years - that gets you close to the $3600 monthly nut you need from your investments.

I'd also work on reducing the transaction costs when buying/selling. Can you or your wife become agents, so you don't have to pay 3% to sell and buy your old/new house?

Sandi

Another Reader

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2012, 05:19:04 PM »
I'm curious why you want to sell the two rentals.  Is it a matter of being too far away to manage them?  If they are in suburban DC, the appreciation and the rental income potential would give me pause.  Are these properties cash flow positive?  Can you refinance them to improve the cash flow?  I retired early with the assistance of rental income and property portfolio growth via leverage.  I'm always in favor of letting tenants buy some of your future income for you.

Adventine

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2012, 05:53:24 PM »
I think sometimes the language on MMM clouds the meaning.  I don't really get what is meant by "douchebag."  To me it's a jerk.  To you it sounds like just someone who is scared?  What are you really asking here?

I agree. I also thought "douchebag" meant "jerk", not "cowardly." But following the number of replies, I suppose we're in the minority here. maybe I missed an Internet English class somewhere.

I also have objections to the use of the word "douchebag" in itself, but that's besides the point. I think DoubleDOwn should work a couple more years to increase his safety margin, and hopefully get the family more onboard with FI.

cdngb

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2012, 07:16:08 PM »
Great title.

In two years you have a choice to make.  You can retire.  You can go on a year to year basis, ie give it one more year then decide.  Can you go part-time or job share?

What ever you decide good luck.

SwordGuy

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2012, 06:53:40 PM »
I like (but don't love) my job, same with wife.

If you quit your job, you'll be at home more with a wife you like (but don't love).

If she figures that out, she'll take at least half your 'stache when she leaves.  (Plus the house.)


Ok, Ok. I know you didn't mean it that way.  But it was too funny to pass up!

Hopefully it will be enough of a chuckle to tide you thru for your next 2 years of working fulltime for the man.

jdchmiel

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2012, 09:22:21 AM »
I will be the 3rd person to suggest a new career.  You have enough saved now that you can retire. Your plans show that is it feasible even with some pretty exorbitant monthly spending both before and after.  The question I have is, Why do you want to retire? You like but do not love your job, so are you implying there is something you want to do that you love?  If you can earn anything doing what you love, seems like a no brainer to start doing that asap.  If what you love cannot earn any income, then I guess it is still a more difficult decision.  No matter what you do, it seems like you have plenty of options, none of which seem like an inherently 'bad' decision, so start maximizing quality of life for your family and yourself!

DoubleDown

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Re: Am I a douchebag?
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2012, 12:32:28 PM »
Thanks to everyone for replies! Here are some answers to questions that popped up:

I have made the determination that I reached the "F*ck you money" milestone where I can leave at any time, on my terms, and that's been a great discovery!

Loved the comments that pointed out my choice of words that I "like but don't love my job, same with the wife."! You guessed correctly that I like my job and love my wife, but it would have been more fun to leave it ambiguous.

Re: Why sell the rental homes? They are not good cash-generating properties (they break even). One was my primary residence, the other was my wife's residence, and we combined households into a new primary residence. Turning them into rentals was the best choice, but I would not have picked them as investment properties. But we are in a fantastic real estate market with appreciating prices, so we've held them because of their increasing value, and prices are expected to continue to rise. In this case, leverage has been our best friend. I will always be on the hustle for another good rental property or flip though, as it's been something I've always loved doing and earning $$$ at.

I will most likely sell both houses myself, as I've done in the past with other houses I've owned. I usually just include sales commissions as a "worst case" scenario for planning, then when/if I sell myself I consider it as a bonus.

Thanks to this board and your suggestions, I've become more focused in my plan. We've also cut at least $600-700 out of our monthly budget, and those cuts have proven to be only beneficial rather than any kind of "deprivation."

I've played around with different scenarios, and have determined that I can actually start working part-time or quit at any time I choose without even moving to a lower-cost area. The difference in future gains to the 'stache' between quitting now or 2+ years from now is negligible (thanks to the magic of compounding interest). Plus my wife WANTS to keep working (huh???), so that makes it an easy transition.

I'm going to be exploring your suggestions a lot more to find some things I would like to do in retirement. There are already a lot of things I have in mind, and many of them would even earn $ right away, though not a lot compared to my corporate drone earnings. My challenge will be not to get hung up on earning only a tiny fraction of my corporate earnings (i.e., not feeling bound by an expectation that if I'm only earning $1/hr or $10/hr, it's not worth doing). Reading others' stories about that helps provide insight.

And to fully answer the question about why not maximize that stuff right now? I couldn't agree more! Part of the challenge though, is that my wife as previously mentioned does not understand MMM. She is scared and nervous at the proposition of me quitting. I've explained it all to her, I've shown her the spreadsheets, the assets, the future income and pensions, the fallback plans, but she is still locked into that mentality of "How could you give up such a perfect, high paying job??!! No one quits a great job like that and retires at 45!!!". She also (irrationally) equates it with deprivation, like we'll have to be eating only oatmeal and shopping at goodwill just to make ends meet. Like I said, it isn't rational, but sometimes there's no 'splainin women ;-)