Airline pilot change jobs?

[Skittles1]

Hello all!  Long time lurker, first time poster.  I'll cut right to the chase, I am having a bit of a conundrum to move on from my current airline.  I am in my early 30's, married with one toddler and plans for one more.  At my current airline I have a job in the simulator department which gets me 13 days off a month, I'm home basically every night, and with a new pay raise will have a base salary of about $250K per year, not including any overtime that's available.  The downside, however, is that I work for a feeder carrier (Delta connection, American Eagle, etc.) so historically, job security has not been the highest and there has been whipsawing with flying moving from one airline to another.  That has mostly subsided with the current pilot shortage but I'm not sure if the airline will be around 10 or more years from now.

I am eligible to move up to the mainline carrier (Delta, American, United, etc.). However, that will entail losing the simulator job and taking a pay cut for probably the next 4 years ish.  I will also be starting over seniority wise so I may have to commute by air away from home and will be gone, at best, a third of the month.  The career earning potential will be higher but again, I will be gone from home much more.

Right now my quality of life is amazing.  I am home every night to help raise my son and with the new pay raise I think it is entirely reasonable to ride this current job out for the next 10 years and be financially independent, at which point I could do anything.  The danger is job security, if I move to the mainline carrier the job security is much higher if I wanted to work until the mandatory retirement age of 65, which I don't.  I feel like I'm giving up a golden ticket by leaving my current job and QOL but at my age I also feel crazy for passing up the opportunity to move on, potentially make quite a bit more money, and have better security until achieving FI.  Right now I have no debt but a $2100 mortgage and have around $100K in index funds.

I know none of you can make the decision or me.  But any input/things to ponder would be much appreciated!  Had a discussion with the mrs. and she is on board with either decision.

[uniwelder]

I know nothing of the airline industry except for what I read about pilot shortages. At 250k annual salary, do you really think it will take more than ten years to be where you want financially? Unless you’re currently spending 100k annually, and plan to continue spending that much in retirement, I would think you could finish out your job quicker than 10 years, considering compounding.

[GilesMM]

The quality of life might be the same or even better as a pilot.  You will work away from home, just like now, only instead of being home every night you will be away but then get entire days off.  If you are off 14 days per month your kids will see you a lot more than they do now and you can spend quality day time with them instead of just exhausted evenings.

[reeshau]

How long have you had this job?  $100k in investments isn't that much, particularly with no debt but a reasonable mortgage payment.  But $250k is a whopping amount of money, and should be able to get you to do a lot within the next 10 years.

The main line jobs are sticky, due to both the shortage of pilots and the history of union negotiations.  But if you already know a career to 65 isn't for you, then you should dig deeper into what you want, and not follow the benefits packages that have "*when retiring at 65" attached to them.  More money is great, but what is it for?  More consumption?  Founding a charity?  Without a plan for it to go somewhere, you will just blow it.

[Freedomin5]

I'm not in the airline industry, but I am currently in an industry that is seeing a lot of flux, and with annual contract renewals, job security is low. However, the pay is fantastic. I kind of see the world moving away from secure jobs that last until the day you retire.

Personally, I would take the higher paying job now, really watch my spending, save up as much as I can over the next few years to create a nest egg that will continue to grow on its own even if I eventually move to a lower paying job. I would take financial security over job security.

Basically, try to live off of 20% of your after-tax pay, and save the other 80% in tax-advantaged accounts as well as taxable accounts. With a salary of $250K, you should be able to easily save $10K a month, and live off the rest.

This is exactly what we have done. We were able to get to a $1M in investments and a paid off house in less than seven years.

The way I see it, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

[Villanelle]

The quality of life might be the same or even better as a pilot.  You will work away from home, just like now, only instead of being home every night you will be away but then get entire days off.  If you are off 14 days per month your kids will see you a lot more than they do now and you can spend quality day time with them instead of just exhausted evenings.

He said he gets 13 days off per month now, in the current job, too.

OP, are the sim instructor jobs a first in, first out set up if there are lay offs?  While I understand your concerns about stability, starting over with seniority as a pilot seems less stable, at least for a while, and you'd also be at the bottom of the list for bidding routes. 

I think I'd stay where you are, and maybe attempt to cut spending so you can get even more quickly to retirement. 

[Skittles1]

How long have you had this job?  $100k in investments isn't that much, particularly with no debt but a reasonable mortgage payment.  But $250k is a whopping amount of money, and should be able to get you to do a lot within the next 10 years.

The main line jobs are sticky, due to both the shortage of pilots and the history of union negotiations.  But if you already know a career to 65 isn't for you, then you should dig deeper into what you want, and not follow the benefits packages that have "*when retiring at 65" attached to them.  More money is great, but what is it for?  More consumption?  Founding a charity?  Without a plan for it to go somewhere, you will just blow it.

I’ve been working for this company for 7 years and my investments are admittedly low. I only stumbled  upon this community about a year ago and had quite a bit of student loans I wanted to pay off first.  I’ve never been bad with money (debt) but I also never saved much, I still remember 5 years ago when I was happy I saved $1,000. It’s not ideal but I’m making progress which I’m happy about. Pay as a first officer was around $75K and my pay for the last 3 years has been around $115K.

[Skittles1]

The quality of life might be the same or even better as a pilot.  You will work away from home, just like now, only instead of being home every night you will be away but then get entire days off.  If you are off 14 days per month your kids will see you a lot more than they do now and you can spend quality day time with them instead of just exhausted evenings.

He said he gets 13 days off per month now, in the current job, too.

OP, are the sim instructor jobs a first in, first out set up if there are lay offs?  While I understand your concerns about stability, starting over with seniority as a pilot seems less stable, at least for a while, and you'd also be at the bottom of the list for bidding routes. 

I think I'd stay where you are, and maybe attempt to cut spending so you can get even more quickly to retirement.

Great point about short term stability. Layoffs are based on seniority and I’m in the top 15%. However simulator jobs are at the company’s discretion and if things hit the fan the department could be downsized. I’d still have a job but would be back to flying and away from home, at less pay than if I had made the jump to the major carrier.

[Dicey]

How long would it take you to recoup the loss in pay for the first four years?

I agree that you could save like crazy and be done in less than ten years, plus you'd get to be home with your family.

Given the pilot shortage, your skillset could see increased demand over the next decade. If your feeder collapses, someone else will need you and you can make the decision then.

[former player]

So your pay is currently $115k, you are supporting a young family and you have equity in a house, no debt other than a reasonable mortgage and $100k invested in index funds.  That's already a good situation for early thirties.

You are about to get a pay rise to $250k, that means an extra $135k a year.  Presumably you can save every penny of that, subject to paying tax on it, in addition to what you are already saving.

So what you need to do is calculate what percentage of your new take-home pay you can save (using tax-efficient savings, of course) and then apply the shockingly simple math to it -

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

Remembering, of course, that the $100k you have already saved takes off some future time needed.

Depending how much you can save you may well find that your current higher pay for four years would get you so far into early retirement territory that a permanent job at that point becomes irrelevant.  You should certainly calculate the difference in savings over four years between your current job and the lower-salaried transfer job, to work out the potential financial cost of transferring.

Will your current job last 4 years?  If not, are there other opportunities for you?  By the time you have been saving and investing for four years you have a lot of options other than a full-time high paying job - the "barrista fire" option of part-time or less demanding work becomes a real possibility - at about the time when your kids will be pleased to have you around to do interesting things with them.

You've been lurking awhile, you say, so you are open to different ways of thinking about work.  There may well be an attraction to going to work for a major airline that is about status and perceptions as well as money and security.  Status and perception can be important, but they need to be weighed against life years and independence.

[Dee18]

I think you should stay in your present job.  You can always make more money in the future but you cannot get the time back.  It is great that your wife is supportive of either option, but do weigh heavily what the reality will be for her if you choose to change jobs.  You plan to have a second child so she would have two young children to care for alone for 1/3 of the time.  If you do overtime she will have even more of a burden.

What stands out to me in your post is this, "Right now my quality of life is amazing." This is the goal for everyone on MMM.  Don't let wanting more money faster make you lose sight of this. Keep on with your amazing life.  If it becomes not amazing, then look for a change.

[Ladychips]

I think you should stay in your present job.  You can always make more money in the future but you cannot get the time back.  It is great that your wife is supportive of either option, but do weigh heavily what the reality will be for her if you choose to change jobs.  You plan to have a second child so she would have two young children to care for alone for 1/3 of the time.  If you do overtime she will have even more of a burden.

What stands out to me in your post is this, "Right now my quality of life is amazing." This is the goal for everyone on MMM.  Don't let wanting more money faster make you lose sight of this. Keep on with your amazing life.  If it becomes not amazing, then look for a change.

What Dee18 said...

[gatortator]

Food for thought from a site I like…

https://www.becomingminimalist.com/money-wont-make-you-happy/

Prioritize time like you already are and continue to live your best life.

[lifeandlimb]

Just in case you haven't listed them out side by side, this is what it looks like based on what you described:

CURRENT: <----------------------------> POTENTIAL MOVE:
Pay increase to $250k/year <---------> Pay cut to ? amount for 4 years
Home each night with family <--------> Working far away from home at least 10 days per month
13 days off per month <---------------> ? days off per month?
Possibly less job security <------------> Possibly more job security
Earning potential plateau <------------> Higher earning potential after 4+ years (how high?)

Things to consider:
- In numbers, what is the exact higher earning potential you're referring to? Do those numbers outweigh your coming salary of $250k if you were to quit or be laid off after 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 years?
- Consider how much your household spending might change if you are away from home 10+ days per month. Might your spouse end up spending more out of stress or being overburdened?
- Consider the impact on your relationships with your spouse and children if you spend 1/3 of the month away from home, including potential bonding with your children missed during formative years. Just speaking from personal experience, my dad was my favorite person when I was 3-4. Then he started traveling a lot more for work. I remember being visibly upset about it, and throwing a tantrum every time he left. After a while, I adapted and he became almost a stranger to me. We never truly regained closeness, decades later.
- How easy would it be to find a new job if you were laid off from your current role tomorrow?
- Could you still become eligible to move to a mainline carrier in the future if you lost your current job?
- Remember that no job is ever 100% secure.

[AlanStache]

Like what others have said the staying put sounds best and probably even more finically lucrative when factoring in savings compounding.  (Stocks have been on sale recently too so buying more may be good - "dont try to time the market blah-blah-blah").

Besides all that; in your current role would you have the time and mental bandwidth to start up a non-aviation side hustle as a hedge incase that industry contracts? 

[Villanelle]

Like what others have said the staying put sounds best and probably even more finically lucrative when factoring in savings compounding.  (Stocks have been on sale recently too so buying more may be good - "dont try to time the market blah-blah-blah").

Besides all that; in your current role would you have the time and mental bandwidth to start up a non-aviation side hustle as a hedge incase that industry contracts?

Or an aviation-related side hustle.  IDK where you are, but plenty of kids aspire to be military aviators and have various tests to study for, including some that involve flight aptitude, which can be studied for.  A few sessions of tutoring with a sim instructor and pilot might be something they'd pay a good hourly wage for.  Sessions could use some of the many test prep guides that exist, or their home sim set-ups (many have those, often for the express purpose of preparing for these tests of for flight school).  The nice thing is this is still aviation-related so you would be using your skillset to get a higher paying, specialized side hustle, but because mil aviation is a separate industry, you wouldn't have all your eggs in the commercial aviation basket. 

[FlytilFIRE]

I am a retired American Airlines pilot, so I DO know the industry.

First, as you already know, there is no guarantee that you won't be furloughed at least once from a main line carrier. The worst case, after 9/11, saw some pilots furloughed for a decade or more.

Unfortunately, as a new hire at a main line, you'd get the worst schedules, which normally equate to either sitting reserve and/or flying a lot, and mucho time away from home. That's the biz, sweetheart, and it sucks since you've got kids and want to spend time with them NOW, rather than when they're in high school.

Frankly, I am SHOCKED that a sim instructor can make 250k. But I also know that just like the pilot shortage, there's an instructor shortage. But as you also know, you can make a buttload more money as a line pilot than as a sim instructor. We're talking MILLIONS more over a 35 year career. So it's a major factor to be considered with your life.

Personally, I was never in the fly-to-live group. It was a satisfying career, but I don't miss it. I was a low time guy, trying to get the most money for the least time away from home. If you do that, especially as you gain seniority, life can be pretty nice. I don't think I'd like to be a sim instructor for ten or more years. Same material, same students. Nothing new and exciting, unless you love changes to approach procedures. Flying, meanwhile, lets you vary your destinations, aircraft, layovers, etc. Always something different (not to mention the challenges you face on a daily basis just operation from point A to point B. Extremely satisfying to get an aircraft safely to a destination with horrible winds and weather.

As a late retiree, I can't speak to retiring in your 40s. If you want to do it from your current job, AND YOUR WIFE IS TOTALLY ON BOARD, great. I'd just hate to be in a position of "Let's wait until the kids graduate from college/law school/med school, etc., or never feeling comfortable with the nest egg you've built up, so you keep working a drudge job.

Remember, seniority is EVERYTHING, so if you're going to jump, DO IT NOW! Especially if you're planning to have another child, get the crappy away from home years behind you. Pick an airline that has the bases that you find appealing. I'd avoid American- they have the worst employee relationships, and are ALWAYS behind the other main line on wages and quality of life. BUT, if you need to be based in a certain city, even AA isn't a horrible way to go. I'd go with Delta, Southwest, Alaska, or United, in that order.

Good luck!

[Goldielocks]

My Dad was a career pilot.  From the kid's perspective, Dad seemed to be pretty much always at home to me, even when working 18 days a month away, and Mom did a great job covering the holidays for the first few years. 

The hardest part is on your spouse (if no family support nearby), then you.