Author Topic: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.  (Read 3831 times)

Hoberto

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Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« on: May 25, 2015, 12:34:39 PM »
I am just starting my 8th week at my current job.  I was hired at $124/hr to work 32 hrs/wk.  Because we will be moving locations and I can't get 32 hr/wk until after the move, I was given at $12,500 sign on bonus.  Currently, I have trouble even getting 24 hrs/wk. It also looks like this move  isn't going to happen until August at the earliest. I really like the work and the employer and was not looking for another job.

However, out of the blue, I have been offered a 4 day/wk position with another office.  While talking with this potential employer he said I should be asking at least 230000/yr.  He said repeatedly to just let him know what income, benefits, insurance, hours and any other requirements I have and that we can negotiate from there.  He also said he can't imagine that he would refuse anything I asked.  I don't know him or his staff too much, but with the salary increase it seems stupid not to seriously consider it. 

Would you consider changing jobs at this point?  How terrible is job hopping?
How should I go about listing my requirements?  Would you suggest just starting with a contract lawyer and having something drawn up, or should I just type out what I'd like? 

Currently, I'm planning to type something out with all my requests and then let his lawyer come up with the contract. 

I am also not sure if I should request hourly pay or salary. Would it be unreasonable to suggest salary up to 40 hrs/wk with hourly for weekends, evenings, unexpected call etc?

I also don't want to burn a bridge with my current employer if I do leave, but I'm really screwing them over if I take off.

Really, the whole thing seems like a trap so I am wary.

forummm

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2015, 12:43:50 PM »
This sounds like a great problem to have. I'm not going to be much help about what to do. But congrats on the two great job options!

mozar

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2015, 12:47:16 PM »
Don't worry about job hopping. If you want 40 hrs I say go with salary, if you want part time consider hourly.

Hoberto

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2015, 12:51:03 PM »
This sounds like a great problem to have. I'm not going to be much help about what to do. But congrats on the two great job options!

Haha, thanks!  I just left an awful place in March, so I know $ isn't everything.  I really don't want another job that beats me down.

Hoberto

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2015, 12:55:20 PM »
Don't worry about job hopping. If you want 40 hrs I say go with salary, if you want part time consider hourly.

I want 4 days/wk (8-9 hrs/day) and this guy has already said that's fine.  My worry with salary is that it is too easy to find yourself working 12+ hr days, then weekends, holidays, call and eventually 60+ hrs/week with no increase in pay.  I like the idea that if I want to schedule few hours on that 5th day I could.

Fruglette

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2015, 05:12:20 PM »
Hoberto,

Congrats, as others have said - great problem to have!

I think you're right to be wary, and to think things through carefully before you jump (again).  Since you just came out of a lousy job in March, you know what a horrid situation that is, and how hard it can be to get out of.

You said that you really like your current co-workers and current work, and that you would be leaving them in the lurch.  Why not talk to them first?  Let them know that something else has just fallen into your lap, and that they're offering you about $140/hour.  Ask whether they might be able to match the rate and the benefits, and ALSO ask how firm the August move looks like it will be.  Obviously, being paid hourly and having limited hours available, really hurts, so if it looks like it could be indefinite, it may make sense to jump ship.  But this at least lets them know there is a problem, and competition for your efforts, and it gives them a chance to come up with some creative solutions so that you can stay put with people and work you KNOW you like.

If the limited hours only last until August, and they'll give you a bit of an hourly boost to match.....heck.  Enjoy your summer (or pick up some freelance on the side - sounds like you've got valuable skills).

If you decide to negotiate with the new guy, first see what you can find out about what it's like to work there.  Can you ask him to talk to some of his folks?  Can you ask around to see how it is?  Maybe he offers a premium because it's a great place to work.  Or maybe he has trouble keeping people, which isn't a good sign.

While you are at it, do a little homework on what's typical in your field, so you know what you're actually worth.  Ask around, call up your university career center or academic dept., do some googling.  Glass Door and other industry specific websites should be able to give you an idea of ranges of salary or hourly.  As far as I know, most professions operate on EITHER salary OR hourly - the idea being that a salaried employee is often paid a bit more, but is expected to work as long as it takes to get the job done, and often to be responsive on weekends or holidays these days.  An hourly employee may get a bit less per hour, but gets upside if they have to work weekends or holidays.  I don't know what's typical, but you'll want to know before you negotiate so you know what to ask for, and what the criteria are for what's fair.....

Good luck!

mozar

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2015, 05:30:31 PM »
If you are in such high demand, can't you just say no to weekends and evenings if you are on salary?

seattlecyclone

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2015, 05:38:59 PM »
How much do you like your current job? If it seems pretty good so far, you might want to stick around for a while. Even at 24 hours/week, you're getting paid more than enough to pay the bills, and there's something to be said for free time.

That being said, this new opportunity could be a chance to dramatically increase your earnings. They're telling you to ask for at least $230k/year. Pretty nice! You might be able to use the fact that you just got a new job as leverage in the negotiations. Say you don't want to leave so soon, but if they happened to offer you $300k salary with a guarantee that they won't expect you to work more than 32 hours per week, you would have a hard time refusing.

TheDude

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2015, 06:07:32 PM »
Yeah I dont see the problem work hard for 32 hrs a week. If it doesnt get done in that time it waits until next week. No ifs ans or buts that the rules. You must have some mad skills based on that pay you set the rules not them.

aschmidt2930

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2015, 06:09:14 PM »
Sounds like a win-win to me, congrats!  Can I ask what you do?

Hoberto

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2015, 06:42:05 PM »
Hoberto,

Congrats, as others have said - great problem to have!

I think you're right to be wary, and to think things through carefully before you jump (again).  Since you just came out of a lousy job in March, you know what a horrid situation that is, and how hard it can be to get out of.

You said that you really like your current co-workers and current work, and that you would be leaving them in the lurch.  Why not talk to them first?  Let them know that something else has just fallen into your lap, and that they're offering you about $140/hour.  Ask whether they might be able to match the rate and the benefits, and ALSO ask how firm the August move looks like it will be.  Obviously, being paid hourly and having limited hours available, really hurts, so if it looks like it could be indefinite, it may make sense to jump ship.  But this at least lets them know there is a problem, and competition for your efforts, and it gives them a chance to come up with some creative solutions so that you can stay put with people and work you KNOW you like.

If the limited hours only last until August, and they'll give you a bit of an hourly boost to match.....heck.  Enjoy your summer (or pick up some freelance on the side - sounds like you've got valuable skills).

If you decide to negotiate with the new guy, first see what you can find out about what it's like to work there.  Can you ask him to talk to some of his folks?  Can you ask around to see how it is?  Maybe he offers a premium because it's a great place to work.  Or maybe he has trouble keeping people, which isn't a good sign.

While you are at it, do a little homework on what's typical in your field, so you know what you're actually worth.  Ask around, call up your university career center or academic dept., do some googling.  Glass Door and other industry specific websites should be able to give you an idea of ranges of salary or hourly.  As far as I know, most professions operate on EITHER salary OR hourly - the idea being that a salaried employee is often paid a bit more, but is expected to work as long as it takes to get the job done, and often to be responsive on weekends or holidays these days.  An hourly employee may get a bit less per hour, but gets upside if they have to work weekends or holidays.  I don't know what's typical, but you'll want to know before you negotiate so you know what to ask for, and what the criteria are for what's fair.....

Good luck!

I already talked to my current place and mentioned the increased pay and some differences in the work I was promised here that I would get at the new place.  That was 2 weeks ago.  So far, they have suggested I get a clinic started for them 30 min away and/or cover vacation at an inpatient unit.  No one wants to say anything concrete about the move.  No offer of a raise. I really expected them to cough up a bit more.  Maybe this week they'll say something.

The salary is fantastic for my part of the country.  160s is pretty decent around here.  I was offered 115000 three years ago.  (Negotiated to 140, still said no.) Have had colleagues making 150-160s. 

Hourly wage is odd, but not unheard of.  Usually it's salary with a quality/incentive bonus.  Since this guy has said to tell him what I want, I figure I want to make it best for me.

I'm going to hang out at the office later this week to get a better feeling for it.  I'll also get to meet another doc who is there just once/week.

If you are in such high demand, can't you just say no to weekends and evenings if you are on salary?

One would think, but I've known people to have it happen.  This is a private entrepreneur/practice not a giant company so I think the chances are much less that there'd be added hours.

 
Yeah I dont see the problem work hard for 32 hrs a week. If it doesnt get done in that time it waits until next week. No ifs ans or buts that the rules. You must have some mad skills based on that pay you set the rules not them.
Sounds like a win-win to me, congrats!  Can I ask what you do?

I finish everything before I leave, rarely let things go.  This mentality has me checking things from home over the weekend, on vacation, on holidays.  It's part of the reason I am trying to work fewer days, because I know that I'll agree to 32 hrs but end up working more.  I don't begrudge my patients, but am focusing on working to live, not living to work.  It's hard because I know if it were my results or my mom's results I wouldn't want to wait all weekend.

I am a physician practicing outpatient cradle to grave FM without OB and also medication assisted treatment for opioid addiction. 



BlueHouse

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2015, 11:03:07 AM »
I love working hourly. It really benefits the type of person who makes sure everything gets done.
In your position, I'd ask for hourly with a minimum.
You may say minimum per week of 32 hours, or you may decide to put a minimum on a day, so even if you work 2 hours you'll get paid for 8. That type of thing helps people to consider your time and days off. Either way, I wouldn't put a cap on it with a salary. Every hour should cost money and if you work 14 hours in one day, you should bill for it.

Also ask for more days off, flexible work hours, telecommuting, everything you can think of.
When you make that kind of money, you're doing something right. Just make sure you don't get taken advantage of.

Hoberto

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2015, 05:50:52 AM »
This is where we are now:
Salary:  $150 per hour with 32 hours per week guaranteed during the first year of employment.
Additional Benefits
  • Malpractice & Liability Insurance:  Malpractice and tail coverage to be provided by employer and to include coverage for volunteer activities. 
  • Medical, Prescription, Vision and Dental:  Health, dental and vision insurance plan to be provided within 45 days of employment.
  • Disability: Provide at least 80% of salary in long term disability and at least 180 days salary continuation in the event of short term disability.
  • Vacation Time:  At least 160 hours of paid vacation time per year.  Vacation to accumulate/roll-over in the event it has not been used at the end of the year.  No limit to accumulated vacation time.
  • Retirement Plan:  401(k) plan to be available upon employment to include 3% annual employer contribution and 3% matching contribution.
  • Holidays: as provided to current employees.
  • CME: At least 5 days paid time off with $3000 allowance yearly to complete required continuing medication education.
  • Professional Dues and Licensure Fees:  Dues and Licensure fees up to $3000 to be provided yearly.
  • Bereavement:  At least 48 hours paid time off in the event of a death in the immediate family.

The catch seems to be that he does not offer health/dental/vision to his current employees.  He suggested I purchase somethign through ACA and then he can either pay my premiums or he could pay me directly and I can do with the extra pay as I wish.  Currently, I have a high deductible plan with a deductible of $2000 and out of pocket max of $4000.  I also have an HSA. I pay $0 (yes ZERO) for this plan.  The closest ACA plans to the health insurance I have now are $315-375/mo, this does not include vision or dental. Does it really matter if he pays the premiums or if I'm paid to pay the premiums? Wouldn't it be taxable income either way?

The next concern is that he does not have a 401k at this time, but says he is working with his financial advisor to set one up.  I have heard that Vanguard has cheaper options for employers so I suggested he look into using them.  Is there something I could suggest to make this easier for him?  Is there a way I could still have pre-tax retirement contributions without him having to set up a 401k?  If so, perhaps I could suggest he pay the extra 3%/3% as a bonus or something? Ugh, I really don't know.

Does this seem sketchy?  He has just 2 nurses, so it's a small practice. He has some providers who work for hourly pay 40hrs or less per month and receive their benefits from other employers.  He actually sounds interested in working this out because he plans to further expand the practice and antipates needing to offer some of these benefits for future employees and providers.  How worried should I be that he's figuring it out with me? 

Thank you for the comments so far.  It really does help to bounce this off of someone else. 

 

BlueHouse

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2015, 02:39:58 PM »

The catch seems to be that he does not offer health/dental/vision to his current employees.  He suggested I purchase somethign through ACA and then he can either pay my premiums or he could pay me directly and I can do with the extra pay as I wish.  Currently, I have a high deductible plan with a deductible of $2000 and out of pocket max of $4000.  I also have an HSA. I pay $0 (yes ZERO) for this plan.  The closest ACA plans to the health insurance I have now are $315-375/mo, this does not include vision or dental. Does it really matter if he pays the premiums or if I'm paid to pay the premiums? Wouldn't it be taxable income either way?
Yes it would be taxable either way, but if he pays the premiums, then you don't have to renegotiate every year when your premium increases.

Quote
The next concern is that he does not have a 401k at this time, but says he is working with his financial advisor to set one up.  I have heard that Vanguard has cheaper options for employers so I suggested he look into using them.  Is there something I could suggest to make this easier for him? 
It sounds as if he's starting up a business from scratch and doesn't have the staff to set this up or the time to really get it all done quickly.  You may want to suggest a company like Paychex or Administaff, which act like an HR department/payroll department/benefits department for small companies.  They can set everything up pretty quickly and for me, it's worth the price.


Quote
Is there a way I could still have pre-tax retirement contributions without him having to set up a 401k?  If so, perhaps I could suggest he pay the extra 3%/3% as a bonus or something?
If you're an hourly employee, is he paying you with a W-2 or a 1099?  If you are an independent contractor instead, you could just bill for your time and then deal with the 401k on your own through a SEP or solo401k.

Quote
Does this seem sketchy?  He has just 2 nurses, so it's a small practice. He has some providers who work for hourly pay 40hrs or less per month and receive their benefits from other employers.  He actually sounds interested in working this out because he plans to further expand the practice and antipates needing to offer some of these benefits for future employees and providers.  How worried should I be that he's figuring it out with me
Not at all worried -- in fact, it's a great opportunity to get exactly what you want and make it a top-notch benefits-wise place to work.  A lot of medical practices use defined benefits plans because you can defer more of your income tax-free.  This might be something to look into as well.  But do take a look at Administaff and Paychex --- they may do all the hard work for you or at least give you some things to consider. 


 

Hoberto

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Re: Advice please! Potential job change and negotiations.
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2015, 02:12:42 PM »
I ended up staying with my current employer.  They increased my hourly to $135 and are giving me 4 weeks paid vacation.  I've also met all those people at the top - CCO, CEO, CFO, CCO, something something O ;) over the last week or so.  They've made it very clear that there are plans for me and a definite future if I want it. 

Jumping ship for unknown job quality/environment was too risky for me, even with the increased pay and benefits.  I'd rather be moderately happy at work, than risk being at a soul stealing place.

Thank you so much for you advice, though.  If I end up leaving in a year or so it may come in handy.


The catch seems to be that he does not offer health/dental/vision to his current employees.  He suggested I purchase somethign through ACA and then he can either pay my premiums or he could pay me directly and I can do with the extra pay as I wish.  Currently, I have a high deductible plan with a deductible of $2000 and out of pocket max of $4000.  I also have an HSA. I pay $0 (yes ZERO) for this plan.  The closest ACA plans to the health insurance I have now are $315-375/mo, this does not include vision or dental. Does it really matter if he pays the premiums or if I'm paid to pay the premiums? Wouldn't it be taxable income either way?
Yes it would be taxable either way, but if he pays the premiums, then you don't have to renegotiate every year when your premium increases.

Quote
The next concern is that he does not have a 401k at this time, but says he is working with his financial advisor to set one up.  I have heard that Vanguard has cheaper options for employers so I suggested he look into using them.  Is there something I could suggest to make this easier for him? 
It sounds as if he's starting up a business from scratch and doesn't have the staff to set this up or the time to really get it all done quickly.  You may want to suggest a company like Paychex or Administaff, which act like an HR department/payroll department/benefits department for small companies.  They can set everything up pretty quickly and for me, it's worth the price.


Quote
Is there a way I could still have pre-tax retirement contributions without him having to set up a 401k?  If so, perhaps I could suggest he pay the extra 3%/3% as a bonus or something?
If you're an hourly employee, is he paying you with a W-2 or a 1099?  If you are an independent contractor instead, you could just bill for your time and then deal with the 401k on your own through a SEP or solo401k.

Quote
Does this seem sketchy?  He has just 2 nurses, so it's a small practice. He has some providers who work for hourly pay 40hrs or less per month and receive their benefits from other employers.  He actually sounds interested in working this out because he plans to further expand the practice and antipates needing to offer some of these benefits for future employees and providers.  How worried should I be that he's figuring it out with me
Not at all worried -- in fact, it's a great opportunity to get exactly what you want and make it a top-notch benefits-wise place to work.  A lot of medical practices use defined benefits plans because you can defer more of your income tax-free.  This might be something to look into as well.  But do take a look at Administaff and Paychex --- they may do all the hard work for you or at least give you some things to consider.