Author Topic: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?  (Read 5929 times)

max9505672

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Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« on: December 11, 2017, 07:43:11 PM »
I was wondering if some people here are applying the Mustachain lifestyle at a certain period of their life hoping to get ''rich enough'' / having an ''appreciable enough'' passive income to live a life they could never live otherwise, but whitout necessarily FIRE'ing?

Obviously, the terms ''rich enough'' and ''appreciable enough'' are very large and different for everybody, but basically, I'd like to know if any people here are saving and investing a lot now to live an expensive dream later that they couldn't live with regular income only? I'm not meaning investing now to buy useless sh** later, I'm thinking dreams like travelling, praticing an expensive sport, starting a business, etc., but probably doing it while still working?

For example, let's say John is a 30 y.o. middle class man with average income, sensitive to the value of money and the impact of his actual choices on his life in the future. His only hope of becoming ''rich enough'' is by investing a lot of his money now and for a certain period of time. To continue with the example, John happens to loves racing cars. But John knows that if he fully lives his hobby now, he won't be able to save for FI and other projects at the same time. But let's say he gets his numbers right and comes up with a strategy that would allow him to fully live his hobby at 40 y.o. while having a balance between his dream, FI, other projects and job.

Would it be something crazy to do?

YoungInvestor

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2017, 08:09:38 PM »
No, that's not crazy.

I think many people here care about the stress relief of FI more than they do about the RE itself. I know I do.

Many people plan for slightly higher expenses after they stop working then what they currently have. This is sort of similar to what you describe.

What you describe isn't so much of a stretch.

Syonyk

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2017, 08:34:45 PM »
Financial Peace University, by chance?  Because that sounds exactly like, "Live like noone else, so later, you can live like noone else."  Paraphrased, slightly.

I'm sure there are.  I personally view "retired" as a rather soft target instead of a hard date - I enjoy my job, have a good arrangement (remote and part time) doing something I'm good at, and have plenty of time for side projects - writing, small electronics, property sustainability work, etc.  At some point, I'll feel comfortable quitting my day job and working on project work/writing more, once that will sustain us, but I don't have any particularly firm plans in place at this point - definitely no retirement spreadsheets.

max9505672

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2017, 05:46:10 AM »
Financial Peace University, by chance?  Because that sounds exactly like, "Live like noone else, so later, you can live like noone else."  Paraphrased, slightly.
Yes, basically.

boarder42

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2017, 05:54:49 AM »
I travel AND practice an expensive sport now while saving over 65% of our income you dont have to wait on these things til FIRE or have a sizeable stash and still work.  Travel can be next to nothing with travel hacking.  My expensive sport is done for penny's on the dollar compared to what we could spend by making and applying smart spending habits to the sport. 

You dont have to wait to live like a king.  Wisely placing your dollars gets you an insane life for very low costs. 

I have pondered working extra years to make what will likely be real impacts in others lives.  If i sacrafice an extra 3 years of work i'll be able to give over 30k or more per year to charity on top of a really cushy spending plan. 

max9505672

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2017, 06:08:25 AM »
I'm not entirely certain what you are asking, but I think everyone needs to establish their own goals for themselves.

I think as long as you have a reasonable and feasible plan based on intelligent and critical self reflection, then do whatever you think will make you happiest and most fulfilled in life.

There really aren't any rules. The whole point of this whole thing is that you are accountable to yourself for your financial decisions and how they affect your life.

Money is just one of the tools we can to help craft the lives we want. Nothing is crazy if it's well thought through and will make you happier. Where people hit speed bumps is either not being self aware enough to truly know what will make then happy, or not being realistic enough to develop a feasible plan that will actually get them there.
Yes, I know there are no rules and everybody should have its own goals that makes them happy. But the general objective of this forum/community is FIRE so, naturally, most discussions are related to that goal.

I think it could be nice to hear from people who actually lived the Mustachian lifestyle for a while and then tell us what kind of extraordinary dream they could afford.

boarder42

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2017, 06:16:15 AM »
I'm not entirely certain what you are asking, but I think everyone needs to establish their own goals for themselves.

I think as long as you have a reasonable and feasible plan based on intelligent and critical self reflection, then do whatever you think will make you happiest and most fulfilled in life.

There really aren't any rules. The whole point of this whole thing is that you are accountable to yourself for your financial decisions and how they affect your life.

Money is just one of the tools we can to help craft the lives we want. Nothing is crazy if it's well thought through and will make you happier. Where people hit speed bumps is either not being self aware enough to truly know what will make then happy, or not being realistic enough to develop a feasible plan that will actually get them there.
Yes, I know there are no rules and everybody should have its own goals that makes them happy. But the general objective of this forum/community is FIRE so, naturally, most discussions are related to that goal.

I think it could be nice to hear from people who actually lived the Mustachian lifestyle for a while and then tell us what kind of extraordinary dream they could afford.

i think your goals are much more inline with just increasing your income.  it doesnt take much to live a baller life way above mustachian standards and save

max9505672

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2017, 06:17:38 AM »
I travel AND practice an expensive sport now while saving over 65% of our income you dont have to wait on these things til FIRE or have a sizeable stash and still work.  Travel can be next to nothing with travel hacking.  My expensive sport is done for penny's on the dollar compared to what we could spend by making and applying smart spending habits to the sport.
 
This is great!

I'm curious to know a little more about your situation. Is that something you could afford early in your life or did you have to work and save for some time before being able to have this lifestyle? Do you have a particularly high income? Do you have an even bigger dream/goal that you just can't afford but would have loved to live with different early life choices?

You dont have to wait to live like a king.  Wisely placing your dollars gets you an insane life for very low costs. 

I agree wisely placing your dollars gets you an insane life for very low costs, but I think living like a king, or maybe more living your dream, is so different from one person to another that you can't just say ''so don't have to wait''. It depends on too many factors. I'm glad you are living your king life though!

I have pondered working extra years to make what will likely be real impacts in others lives.  If i sacrafice an extra 3 years of work i'll be able to give over 30k or more per year to charity on top of a really cushy spending plan.

The world needs more people like you!

max9505672

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2017, 06:25:29 AM »
i think your goals are much more inline with just increasing your income.  it doesnt take much to live a baller life way above mustachian standards and save

Yes, but isn't everybody's case? Obviously, increasing income gets you to your (expensive) dream quicker. Usually though, it's not always so easy to do, nor it can be quickly done (but that's a whole other discussion IMO).

More passive income from investments is a good way to have a higher income, but it takes time. To continue with the (very) simplified example, it would take John 10 years to have sufficient passive income, on top of his projected job salary to be able to leave his dream. For sure, he could also land a job with double the salary, but that's not realistic for him.

boarder42

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2017, 06:38:33 AM »
I travel AND practice an expensive sport now while saving over 65% of our income you dont have to wait on these things til FIRE or have a sizeable stash and still work.  Travel can be next to nothing with travel hacking.  My expensive sport is done for penny's on the dollar compared to what we could spend by making and applying smart spending habits to the sport.
 
This is great!

I'm curious to know a little more about your situation. Is that something you could afford early in your life or did you have to work and save for some time before being able to have this lifestyle? Do you have a particularly high income? Do you have an even bigger dream/goal that you just can't afford but would have loved to live with different early life choices?

You dont have to wait to live like a king.  Wisely placing your dollars gets you an insane life for very low costs. 

I agree wisely placing your dollars gets you an insane life for very low costs, but I think living like a king, or maybe more living your dream, is so different from one person to another that you can't just say ''so don't have to wait''. It depends on too many factors. I'm glad you are living your king life though!

I have pondered working extra years to make what will likely be real impacts in others lives.  If i sacrafice an extra 3 years of work i'll be able to give over 30k or more per year to charity on top of a really cushy spending plan.

The world needs more people like you!

These are things i've basically always afforded even from when we made much less than now.  we started at a combined income of around 110k give or take and now have a combined income pushing 200k we lightly inflated our life choosing to double the cost of our home and move from non lake front to lake front 2 years ago.  not spending on cable and going out, keeping the house at temperatures people woudl call ridiculous. owning older cars basically we "sacrafice" things that arent important to us and optimize everything that is important to us.

Optimization is not talked about enough here its a problem IMO.  Not everyone wants to cut everything to a gnats ass.  But the prinicipals of food shopping and buying things on CL etc. can be applied to other parts of your life to optimize them and even be a profit center for you.

boarder42

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2017, 06:40:53 AM »
i think your goals are much more inline with just increasing your income.  it doesnt take much to live a baller life way above mustachian standards and save

Yes, but isn't everybody's case? Obviously, increasing income gets you to your (expensive) dream quicker. Usually though, it's not always so easy to do, nor it can be quickly done (but that's a whole other discussion IMO).

More passive income from investments is a good way to have a higher income, but it takes time. To continue with the (very) simplified example, it would take John 10 years to have sufficient passive income, on top of his projected job salary to be able to leave his dream. For sure, he could also land a job with double the salary, but that's not realistic for him.

why is it not realistic. we need EEs right now badly anyone getting a EE degree would have a job instantly.  is it realistic for everyone to get a EE degree no - but there are other ways to increase your income.  esp. if its gonna take you 10 years of savings to get there i'd think there are other things you could do in those 10 years other than live a life you dont like in hopes of living one you will like 10 years from now assuming you dont get some disease that destroys all hope of that.

max9505672

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2017, 07:04:51 AM »
why is it not realistic. we need EEs right now badly anyone getting a EE degree would have a job instantly.  is it realistic for everyone to get a EE degree no - but there are other ways to increase your income. 

I get your point, but to be honest, I'd like this discussion not turning in a ''how to increase your salary'' discussion.

Let's just say John likes his job and doesn't want to quit it.

i'd think there are other things you could do in those 10 years other than live a life you dont like in hopes of living one you will like 10 years from now assuming you dont get some disease that destroys all hope of that.

Painting it as a life you don't like vs. a life you like is also a little exaggerated in my opinion. The point isn't to sacrifice everything now. It remains the Mustachian ideology to spend on what has the most value for you while still making reasonable sacrifices towards a bigger goal, in this case different from FIRE.

But I get your point, instead of sacrificing more now, you would find ways to increase income, which is absolutely fair. In my opinion though, increasing income is, in most cases, also a sacrifice since it usually involves more work time or responsibilities/stress which can't be disregarded.

max9505672

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2017, 06:09:45 AM »
The general objective of a Mustachian lifestyle isnít FIRE though, itís about finding health and happiness through mindful use of money in optimal ways to maximize lifestyle and minimize time wasted on unpleasant work.

If your work pays enough and is meaningful and satisfying, then FIRE really isnít even that relevant.
FIRE isnít a life goal, itís a security blanket that allows some people to feel more comfortable pursuing the life they really want to live. Others choose to do so without that security blanket.
Yes, I agree, 100%.

I just see situations where people would FIRE because they don't especially love their job, but would choose not to (at least not as soon) in order to afford to live a dream. Some kind of compromise here.

Let's say John could FIRE at 40 y.o. if he decided to let go of his expensive dream. Instead, he choses to keep working for X years while spending on his dream.

Maybe if a read more Journals threads I would find my question is a little irrelevant because it's already what most people here are doing. I was just under the impression a lot of people in this community have FIRE as a goal. Obviously, after FIRE, they don't watch TV all day. They live their passion, dream, etc. But I feel like, for most of them, they don't plan on becoming airplane pilots or something else exceptionally expensive.

terran

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2017, 08:24:29 AM »
Let's say John could FIRE at 40 y.o. if he decided to let go of his expensive dream. Instead, he choses to keep working for X years while spending on his dream.

I would say that the majority on this site would fall into that category. I would propose that it is possible to live on $15k for a single person, $22.5k for a couple without too much effort, and you could get it lower than that. I know this is possible because that's about what our core spending is if you take out things like travel, and we could definitely optimize further, especially if we weren't tied to our location for work. At a 3.5% withdrawal rate that requires $430k for a single, $645k for a couple. Anyone trying to save more than that is choosing to work longer than they "need" to if they were willing to live a pretty basic, but still perfectly fine lifestyle anywhere but the most expensive parts of the country/world.

boarder42

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2017, 08:44:43 AM »
Let's say John could FIRE at 40 y.o. if he decided to let go of his expensive dream. Instead, he choses to keep working for X years while spending on his dream.

I would say that the majority on this site would fall into that category. I would propose that it is possible to live on $15k for a single person, $22.5k for a couple without too much effort, and you could get it lower than that. I know this is possible because that's about what our core spending is if you take out things like travel, and we could definitely optimize further, especially if we weren't tied to our location for work. At a 3.5% withdrawal rate that requires $430k for a single, $645k for a couple. Anyone trying to save more than that is choosing to work longer than they "need" to if they were willing to live a pretty basic, but still perfectly fine lifestyle anywhere but the most expensive parts of the country/world.

good point - i guess we are doing that - our spending is grossly higher than what it needs to be to fund all of our fun things.  Now b/c we have high incomes we still FIRE by 37.  But we could find a house for our family in our area for what we own of our current home.  and we actually spend with our frivilously wasteful life around 40k give or take a year.  so man we could retire next year on a more mustachian budget so your point is ultra valid.  many around here are already doing this and i'm one of them

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2017, 08:55:36 AM »
Yes, it all about ones own personal goals.   

I drive 100 miles a day, 5-6 days a week in one of the most expensive parts of the world to be able to surf most mornings before work.    I could move closer to work or move to Ohio and give up the only life I know and love and FIRE quicker but that would be miserable for me ;)

If when I am FI I never plan to stop working.   I'll work on Home Depot or surf shop or any customer service job part time. 

I believe many people on this  forum are getting too caught up in concept of FIRE.  Likes it a race!   Once they hit 25X expenses they will tell they boss to go fuck himself.     They dont consider things like aging, sickness, extended Bear Markets and crashes/booms,  health care costs, SS income in the future, continuing their education, ect.   
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 09:17:24 AM by surfhb »

boarder42

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2017, 09:48:28 AM »
Yes, it all about ones own personal goals.   

I drive 100 miles a day, 5-6 days a week in one of the most expensive parts of the world to be able to surf most mornings before work.    I could move closer to work or move to Ohio and give up the only life I know and love and FIRE quicker but that would be miserable for me ;)

If when I am FI I never plan to stop working.   I'll work on Home Depot or surf shop or any customer service job part time. 

I believe many people on this  forum are getting too caught up in concept of FIRE.  Likes it a race!   Once they hit 25X expenses they will tell they boss to go fuck himself.     They dont consider things like aging, sickness, extended Bear Markets and crashes/booms,  health care costs, SS income in the future, continuing their education, ect.

i disagree with your last paragraph.  I highly doubt MANY people here are not considering why you talked about and really do exactly what you said.  I think MANY people here do the exact opposite of that and over consider the latter part of your comment and work a year or 2 longer than necessary b/c thats the normal human reaction when presented with that situation.

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2017, 09:58:47 AM »
I thinks it's just a matter of what is worth spending your extra time and money on. For every $1 you pay monthly you need $300 to have it in FI. x25 for annual expenses.

So if you want to spend $4000 a year on travel, go ahead and do so, just know you need 100k to continue that life in FI. Some might find it worth it not to wait and continue to do it every year until they FIRE. Others might pass and then think that extra year or two of work at the end is worth it. And still others would say F that 4k annual travel isn't worth 100k. Same goes for everything you spend on, only difference is most people don't think $10 coffee once a month is worth saving $3000 for when they do the math.

I was looking into charity the other day and learned you can pretty definitively save a persons like for $3400. That's 85k in savings to save someone annually for the rest of your life. Absolutely worth it to me. Others spend that much on restaurants (maybe not so much on this forum though), not worth it to me.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 10:02:32 AM by Meesh »

surfhb

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2017, 10:35:59 AM »
Yes, it all about ones own personal goals.   

I drive 100 miles a day, 5-6 days a week in one of the most expensive parts of the world to be able to surf most mornings before work.    I could move closer to work or move to Ohio and give up the only life I know and love and FIRE quicker but that would be miserable for me ;)

If when I am FI I never plan to stop working.   I'll work on Home Depot or surf shop or any customer service job part time. 

I believe many people on this  forum are getting too caught up in concept of FIRE.  Likes it a race!   Once they hit 25X expenses they will tell they boss to go fuck himself.     They dont consider things like aging, sickness, extended Bear Markets and crashes/booms,  health care costs, SS income in the future, continuing their education, ect.

i disagree with your last paragraph.  I highly doubt MANY people here are not considering why you talked about and really do exactly what you said.  I think MANY people here do the exact opposite of that and over consider the latter part of your comment and work a year or 2 longer than necessary b/c thats the normal human reaction when presented with that situation.

Lets hope so.    I see alot of "My FIRE date is March of 2020" posts

boarder42

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2017, 11:30:58 AM »
Yes, it all about ones own personal goals.   

I drive 100 miles a day, 5-6 days a week in one of the most expensive parts of the world to be able to surf most mornings before work.    I could move closer to work or move to Ohio and give up the only life I know and love and FIRE quicker but that would be miserable for me ;)

If when I am FI I never plan to stop working.   I'll work on Home Depot or surf shop or any customer service job part time. 

I believe many people on this  forum are getting too caught up in concept of FIRE.  Likes it a race!   Once they hit 25X expenses they will tell they boss to go fuck himself.     They dont consider things like aging, sickness, extended Bear Markets and crashes/booms,  health care costs, SS income in the future, continuing their education, ect.

i disagree with your last paragraph.  I highly doubt MANY people here are not considering why you talked about and really do exactly what you said.  I think MANY people here do the exact opposite of that and over consider the latter part of your comment and work a year or 2 longer than necessary b/c thats the normal human reaction when presented with that situation.

Lets hope so.    I see alot of "My FIRE date is March of 2020" posts

There is a whole nother discussion around this. Most are either locked due to a more typical retirement or life event rather than estimating the date of 25x expenses.  Most who are planning around 4% know there is some float in their projections. Im looking at 6 years. Could be 4 could be 8. Likely I won't personally walk at 25x day of because I have things that tie to my salary that only make sense for me to retire at a certain time so in 3 years ill likely have a fixed date too and it will most likely be more than 25x due to my personal situation.

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2017, 11:46:36 AM »
Not for me. If I just wanted to get filthy rich, I'd spend my time working freelance and researching investment strategies in detail rather than mooching around the MMM forums and spending a few minutes once a month transferring part of my pay into simple savings and investment products. I'm here for retirement inspiration.

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2017, 07:24:14 AM »
My wife and I are more interested in the FI part of FIRE than the RE for now.  We have jobs that would require relocation in order to find work should we ever lose our employment but we are currently in a wonderful place with an unbelievable quality of life.  We want to be in a situation where we would be OK if our jobs ended and would not need to relocate.  Right now we are 2-4 years from our number of $2.4 but we could certainly make it work on less.  If we hit our number, still enjoy our jobs, and have no issues on the horizon I can see us inflating our lifestyle a bit like trading in the 17 year old car for a used tesla or other fun car.  We get plenty of vacationt time from work (5 weeks minimum) so working has not stopped us from doing the international travel we enjoy and since all of my friends also have jobs I currently don't feel compelled to stop working yet. 

Right now we are just enjoying the ride and building up the green army.

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2017, 07:42:49 PM »
Count me in the "focused on FI and not RE" crowd.

DH and I were hiking in Hawaii last month.  I can't remember what we were talking about, but he said "You know, if we were smart and rich...." and then described some random business proposition.  We snagged flights from the the US east coast worth maybe $2K for next to nothing to go on that vacation.  So I said "Hey, I think we are smart and rich!"  He laughed and said "I guess we are!"

It's all relative.  We don't have quite enough to RE yet (890K), but we are quickly approaching what I deemed to be our FIRE number (1.2M).  I doubt we'll actually say "FU, jobs, we out!" when the day comes that we hit 1.2M.  Because we both kinda like our jobs.  Right now.  I do remember a time when I did not like my job and working towards FIRE was the only thing keeping me sane.  Things change.  I might not always enjoy my work so much.  At least if that happens I won't ever be "stuck" since we live frugally.

Apple_Tango

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2017, 09:29:18 PM »
It is hard for me to imagine my life in the next 10 years, so Iím not exactly sure how much I will need. Iím hoping I can stick with the number I have on my spreadsheets, but Iím not against finding an enjoyable part time,  minimum wage job to supplement some increased spending. I imagine once Iím FI, I wonít be so concerned about RE and will be able to prioritize time flexibility over a high dollar amount. There are so many awesome things to look forward to!!! Part of me wants to find that enjoyable job right now, but Iíve got some dollar signs that I need to accumulate....itís definitely a balance that I have to think about

undercover

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Re: Any people here to get rich and never FIRE?
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2017, 10:19:03 AM »
The concepts and tools are what matter. How you apply those concepts and tools is irrelevant. I think the incongruences you're finding have to do with the plan of eventually spending more than you are now (and that spending being viewed as wasteful to others). I think you imagine the majority of this site to be on some idealogical environmental and/or essentialist path that one should only spend as much that's necessary in the most efficient and economical of ways.

But, again, it's the tools and concept that matter...you can apply them however you want. I think the overall plan of becoming wealthier and happier for most people here is what matters - not so much the specifics of how one spends their time or money. If your plan is to employ the many benefits of frugality and stoicism to stash away large amounts of capital to invest in order to fund an eventual lifestyle that some here might view as wasteful or not worthwhile, then have at it. You don't have to feel bad that you don't align with the same values as everyone else. In fact, I think it's best you don't. It's best people are always playing devils advocate, especially when it comes to "the best way" to live one's life.