A rookie seeking advice from the wisest of the mustachians

[CrewDallahan]

Greetings and salutations! I’m a new reader of MMM with a piqued interest. I’d like to propose a scenario (called my life) and see what sage advice you senior mustachians can offer me. Perhaps your advice will shape my future and someday I will be able to pay the favor forward…

The facts: I am 25 years old and Sarah, my wife of 3 years, is 23. We are expecting our first child this April. We live in Fort Ann, NY in the foothills of the Adirondacks, 10 minutes from my 2 parents and 5 minutes from her 2 parents. We are renting an apartment with another couple to split the cost. Sarah and I own a small business called Travel Well which is a bohemian flavored retail shop where we sell new and used clothing, local and international artisan wares, and curious finds from around the world. The business is a dream job for us because we created it with our own hands and it’s basically a reflection of our personalities. It’s located in the Glens Falls Shirt Factory which is an old building that has been renovated into artist studios and creative shops. We love the community and the people we meet, plus we’re excited to raise our son in this environment… so this could easily be our lifetime endeavor. I maintain a part time job working at a local cheese farm 2 days a week, minimum wage, to help defray our expenses.

The $$$: Travel Well has only been around for 8 months, so income is hard to predict but I’ll show you what we know so far… Gross sales over an 8 month period (including the Christmas season) = $27,300 so $3,412/mth. But let’s talk profit: more like $1,254/mth. Income from Cheese Factory: $500/mth. So $1,754/mth to live on. Average Monthly Expenses: Apartment Rent $375 / Auto Insurance $40 / Gas $40 / NTM (charitable donation to my brother who is a missionary in Papua New Guinea) $150 / Sarah's School Bills $475 / Medishare (my alternative to health insurance) $173 / Ting (phone bill) $80 / National Grid $150 / Motorcycle Insurance $12 / Time Warner $50 / Groceries $200
So…
Income: approximately but variably $1,754 / bare bones Expenses: approximately $1,787
Everything presently in our bank = $4,439

The Surprise: My grandmother passed away recently, leaving my father with 135 acres of land in the Adirondacks (an extension of the land he and my mother live on) and $3K to us (not in our account yet). Shortly before that my uncle passed away, leaving us an inheritance: $12.5K (non-taxable) and $49K (taxable). The $$$ is not here yet and it’s hard to tell when the government will release it into our account, BUT we plan to have the $49K placed into a beneficiary ROTH IRA with American Funds. Let that money work for us using compound interest (projected at 10% over a 10+ year investment). That could provide us with a later-in-life retirement plan and an inheritance for our child(ren).  $12.5K and $3K is still coming to us free and clear.

The theoretical scenario: My wife is pregnant and nesting BIG TIME. She is ready to move out of our roommate situation and into our own house. My father will give us a plot to build on (it’s ok, we both adore my parents- they will be great neighbors). I am handy enough to build a house on my own with the help and expert guidance of friends and a few paid experts (but no contractor). I am in the process of designing a house that will cost less than $100K (hopefully far less). I expect a project like this to take a solid 2 years. In the meantime we are considering purchasing a 25’ insulated yurt for around $10K so we can live on the plot of land in a non-permanent structure while I build. I’m looking into FHA loans at 3.5%… OPEN TO ALL SUGGESTIONS.

If you were me, what would you do?

Should I put the 49k into an American Funds ROTH IRA or is there a better yielding option?
Should I pour most of my 12.5K into a yurt?
Will I be able to afford a mortgage + insurance + taxes?
Will I have enough to support my growing family or do I need to pick up more work (which would take my attention off my family and potential house project)?

Thank you for your wisdoms

-Humbly,
Drew

[MDM]

1. Should I put the 49k into an American Funds ROTH IRA or is there a better yielding option?
2. Should I pour most of my 12.5K into a yurt?
3. Will I be able to afford a mortgage + insurance + taxes?
4. Will I have enough to support my growing family or do I need to pick up more work (which would take my attention off my family and potential house project)?

CrewDallahan, welcome to the forums.

1. From a quick look at their web site it appears American Funds will charge you ~5.75% just for starters, then ~0.75% every year thereafter.  Compared with, say, Vanguard who will charge you 0% for starters, then ~0.15% every year thereafter.  What do you think?

2. Abstaining on this one - up to you.

3. If I read the OP correctly, your expenses currently exceed your income.  You can deplete your savings, but only for so long....

4. See #3.

Try putting your numbers into www.cfiresim.com or the spreadsheet from http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-to-write-a-%27case-study%27-topic/msg274228/#msg274228 - how do they look?

Best wishes for a growing business - more income will certainly help.

[waltworks]

Your business is in it's first year, so the fact that you're making anything at all is great. But let's face some facts here: your income is less than your expenses, even without any sort of emergency (which will eventually crop up), and even without the expenses of a child (which don't have to be crippling, but also aren't zero).

Setting aside the money you're going to receive sounds like a good plan, but you may need to also think about whether your business can support your family. If it is going to grow into something that can, that's great. If it's not, you need to be ready to pull the plug and go find (sigh) a real job because what you've got is really a hobby.

I'd give it a year, 2 tops. Assuming you can continue your frugal lifestyle. If you find that your wife/you just aren't happy sharing space and need to start moving up in the world, well, then, time to sell off the remnants of your fun youth and get jobs, or else start a business that makes way more money. Your lifestyle sounds fun. But working for minimum wage is not going to seem fun in a decade, trust me.

Also, the yurt is an awful idea. Your current lifestyle is about as luxurious as you can possibly afford. Don't take your windfall and waste it. You are going to probably need that money to stay afloat while you figure out your new life as a family.

-W

[NICE!]

First off, you have a cool lifestyle that isn't very common on these forums. I enjoyed reading your post and like the idea of a simple life in the foothills (but I love cities too much).

I agree that you need to save all of this incoming money. Your expenses are currently greater than your income. Since you've already made some changes that we talk about here (for example, you use Ting instead of a super-expensive provider), I don't know where else you can cut. I get that your wife doesn't want a roomate situation but I don't know what other options you have. You need more income. If she wants that change she can contribute. If she holds the line but will not (or cannot) add more work, then you'll need to pick up the slack.

I think that your idea of building on family land could pan out, but I feel that you need to stabilize your financial situation before overextending yourself via more spending and leverage (mortgage).

[Futtee]

Greetings from Saratoga Springs!  It's nice to see a neighbor on the forum.

I'm not sure what Medishare is, but with your income levels you qualify for Medicaid, which is free.  If you are resistant to going on Medicaid for some reason, consider that it is there for you to use when you need it, and you will not be using it for the rest of your life. However, You will be paying into the system for the rest of your days as long as you spend them in NY . It is the Cadillac of insurance and great coverage to have especially for your wife while she is pregnant. As soon as your child is born, enroll him or her in child health plus, another great state health insurance plan for children.

I hope to make it up to that shirt factory Some day, I hear great things about it.

Best of luck to you!

[waltworks]

Yeah, concrete advice:
-Sell motorcycle, save insurance money. Get a cheap bicycle or two, plus a trailer for kiddo.
-Medicaid.
-WIC.
-You can also certainly get food assistance for yourself (WIC is just your wife/kid).
-No more Time Warner (internet?) Go to the library.
-Your brother doesn't need the money as bad as you/your family at this point. Stop those contributions.
-What is the school fee for? Is your wife actively taking classes?

-W

[Luckyvik]

If you get on with your parents, consider moving in with them until you can build your own place.

Also see how you can increase your income, sell online? Can your wife work one day a week once the baby is a few months old?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KBecks2]

Please don't make your pregnant wife and new baby live in an expensive Yurt.  Save that money.

Have you heard of Dave Ramsey and his baby steps?  Check out his website and podcast or maybe even give him a call. 

All the best to you and your family!!!!

[CrewDallahan]

I didn't expect so many responses! Thanks everyone! I needed some honest opinions like these. My wife and I sat down and read through these. We're intensely evaluating our situation to determine our next move.

So bottom line: when I step back and look at our situation- I need to generate more income. We're living a pretty cushy lifestyle in that my wife only has to work 4 days a week at the shop and I only work a "real job" 2 days a week and help my wife with the shop 3 days a week. I guess most young couples our age are putting in some serious work hours with 2 full-time jobs. The problem is not that we're lazy, but that we love being together. We're hippies at heart so we're defying the system... We want to work TOGETHER rather than just see each other in the evenings. But maybe it's too early in the game to actually live that way. That's kind of a depressing thought.

What I value: Time together as a family (not just evenings and weekends), a place of our own away from the hustle and bustle, a workshop for my wood projects, riding my motorcycle with my dad, staying fit, building an inheritance for our son and retirement funds for us.

My wife's #1 priority seems to be "having our own place" and she's strongly advocating for a used yurt. In fact she's ecstatic about the idea (which was hers to begin with). It would have a wood stove for primary heat (wood is free for us), a composting toilet, a natural spring-fed water supply for the sink, washing machine and shower, a water pump and raised reservoir, a tankless water heater, and electricity plumbed from my parent's primary underground cable and through a transformer. No internet/cable. Is it possible that living in a yurt could actually SAVE us money while encouraging a more... "stoic" lifestyle? Let's say a total cost of 15K for all the above mentioned crap (it's possible, I've seen fully outfitted winterized yurts go for $10K including stove and deck)... and I currently pay $425 a month for rent and internet. It would take 3 years for the yurt to "pay itself off"... WORTH IT TO HAVE OUR OWN PLACE???

If I increase work to 4 days a week I'll add about $500 a month income. If I qualify for Medicaid I can reduce $173 a month. Net increase = $673

I should look into Vanguard which I keep hearing about on MMM. Any more thoughts on this? Dave Ramsy's people strongly endorse American Funds... I'm going on their recommendations thus far.

PS: "School bills" in my first post means paying on past loans

[caliq]

Are the student loans on income based repayment?  That's a huge chunk of your budget right there and would at least give you some breathing room. 

[CrewDallahan]

I've come up with 4 scenarios for our 10 year future, based largely on your suggestions... I've calculated each one to account for changes in income and expenses, assuming all savings go into a Roth IRA with an average of 7% Rate of Return over a 10 year span.

#1: Don't change a thing = very depressing financial future
#2: I add 2 days of work a week to my schedule and we move into an apartment for $700/mth (including heat but not electric) AND I qualify for medicaid = $375/mth savings
#3: I add 2 days of work a week, I qualify for Medicaid, we buy a yurt and everything required for living that we don't already own (wood stove, composting toilet, refrigerator, water system, electric hookup) for $15.5K = $925/mth savings
#4: I add 2 days of work a week, I DON'T qualify for Medicaid, we buy a yurt and everything required for living that we don't already own for $15.5K = $752/mth savings


Scenario 4 feels like the most likely winner and it breaks down like this:

assuming inheritance comes in ($49K into a beneficiary IRA + 15.5K untaxed), same Medishare for my health plan, work at least 2 days more a week, buy yurt and property setup for $15.5K.

Income: $2254
Expense: $1502 extra gas b/c it's further from work + yurt insurance – rent – internet
Savings: + $752

In 10 years (age 35):
Inherited IRA: $96K
Other IRA: $133.3K
Sitting in bank: $4K
NET WORTH: $233.3K

In 20 years (age 45):
TOTAL WEALTH: $585.4K

MY GOAL: I want to take it up a notch from there and find a way to consistently save $1K/mth to put into our IRA. We live pretty frugally already so I think the solution is simply to muster up and work more for a steady income while the wifey manages our shop. Anyway, that's our basic plan for now. Perhaps the shop will continue to outperform itself year after year to add to our savings... Maybe not. But the idea of "retiring" at age 35 when my son is only 10 years old... I'd say it's worth the additional "daily grind" over the next 10 years.

I could use an answer to this question though: AMERICAN FUNDS OR VANGUARD??? Dave Ramsy endorses American Funds, MMM encourages Vanguard... Can someone who understands investments help me compare the two?

Thanks MDM for this hint:

1. From a quick look at their web site it appears American Funds will charge you ~5.75% just for starters, then ~0.75% every year thereafter.  Compared with, say, Vanguard who will charge you 0% for starters, then ~0.15% every year thereafter.  What do you think?

[Yankuba]

Vanguard!

[CrewDallahan]

I've already set up an account with American Funds for the Beneficiary IRA through a Dave Ramsey Endorsed Provider but the inheritance has not been released into the account as of yet. Dave Ramsey EPs advise you for free and hold your hand through the whole process. They get paid by Dave Ramsey who gets kickbacks from American Funds for sending business their way (as I understand it). I was never told about any front load costs or annual fees...

Should I keep my beneficiary account with AF and then invest my monthly savings with Vanguard to have a little of each world... or put all my egg$ in the Vanguard basket? I'm going to contact my Dave Ramsey Provider and ask her the same questions but let's face it- they endorse AF.

[MDM]

Thanks MDM for this hint:

1. From a quick look at their web site it appears American Funds will charge you ~5.75% just for starters, then ~0.75% every year thereafter.  Compared with, say, Vanguard who will charge you 0% for starters, then ~0.15% every year thereafter.  What do you think?

Well, what do you think?

P.S.  Google "Socratic Method"  ;)

[Spork]

Just a note on the beneficiary IRA...  It may not be something you can just let sit and gain interest.   Depending on your grandmother's age, it may be subject to required minimum withdrawals.  In other words, you may be required to take some amount out and pay taxes on it.  (You can put it right back into another account... but it may still be required to be distributed/taxed.)

oh: American Funds vs Vanguard?  I've had both over the years.  Vanguard, hands down.  Fees and loads in American funds will eat you.

[CrewDallahan]

Socratic method (also known as method of elenchus, elenctic method, or Socratic debate), named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates, is a form of inquiry and discussion between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas.

Thanks for the subtle hint ;)

I don't know if those fees apply to a Beneficiary IRA or not. I just emailed my Dave Ramsey Provider to ask what fees will be associated with my AF account. I was never informed of the front-load or annual fees so I need to hear it from them. I also don't know what V offers for beneficiary IRAs. I'm such a rookie I hardly even know what questions to ask =(  That's why these forums are GREAT =)

I think: the numbers you state make V seem like an obvious winner BUT American Funds could still be a better option if they yield a significantly better ROI... right? Could their fees be worth it? Why does Dave Ramsey endorse AF? Although he's a lot less interesting than MMM he's not an idiot. He preaches the same message but chooses AF over V.

A front-end load of 5.75% on $49K of investments would $2817 right? With an annual fee of $367+ at 0.75%?

[CrewDallahan]

Just a note on the beneficiary IRA...  It may not be something you can just let sit and gain interest.   Depending on your grandmother's age, it may be subject to required minimum withdrawals.  In other words, you may be required to take some amount out and pay taxes on it.  (You can put it right back into another account... but it may still be required to be distributed/taxed.)

Spork, you're right. There will be an annual withdrawal that I plan to reinvest into a Roth IRA. Probably a Vanguard account from what you guys are telling me.

[waltworks]

I think you need to make a scenario where you get a job that pays, say, $25k+ per year. Your idea to work more is great - but I'm assuming from your writing and the fact that you guys have some student loans that you are both intelligent and educated. Working for minimum wage in your position is dumb - you can find all sorts of jobs that will work with your lifestyle and ethics that pay much, much more than your cheese farm gig. If you love the cheese farm, tell them they've gotta pay you more (having a kid is a great time to ask for a raise).

I know that I suggested WIC/Medicaid. Let me make myself clear on that: in your current situation doing this is a good idea. But you are letting the taxpayer pay your way in the world. I would sign up for those programs for now, but then bust my ass to make enough to get off of them.

-W

[teen persuasion]

Vanguard!

[MDM]

I think: the numbers you state make V seem like an obvious winner BUT American Funds could still be a better option if they yield a significantly better ROI... right? Could their fees be worth it?

It is possible, although in general unlikely.  Yes, some "actively managed" funds beat "index funds" - but more do not.  See
http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/investing/2013/active-mutual-fund-managers-beat-market-index/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-index-and-active-funds-stack-up/
http://seekingalpha.com/article/492691-a-defense-of-active-fund-management-vs-passive-index-investing
http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/active-vs-passive-investing-the-results-are-in/
for a variety of views on the issue. 

I particularly like this quote:  "Is it possible to beat index funds?
Yes. It’s definitely possible–as evidenced by the fact that the passive benchmark didn’t outperform 100% of actively-managed funds. Of course, it’s also possible to go to a casino, play blackjack for 8 hours and come out ahead. Doesn’t mean we should bet on it."

Why does Dave Ramsey endorse AF? Although he's a lot less interesting than MMM he's not an idiot. He preaches the same message but chooses AF over V.

I don't know.

A front-end load of 5.75% on $49K of investments would $2817 right? With an annual fee of $367+ at 0.75%?

Yes on the front end load cost.  The annual fee would be "only" $346, however, because you will have already lost the $2817 to American Funds and will have only $46,182.50 invested.

[Spork]

[

Why does Dave Ramsey endorse AF? Although he's a lot less interesting than MMM he's not an idiot. He preaches the same message but chooses AF over V.

I don't know.

I'd be guessing...
* His focus is on people that are seriously hair-on-fire.  He thinks they *need* structure.  (He might be right, dunno.)  He thinks they require immediate reward.  (Hence his "pay smallest first" debt snowball.)   I can't say he's wrong necessarily.  He's appealing more often to the emotional side... and if he can make a connection there and turn people: good for him.   MMM is trying to appeal to the logical side... and if he can make a connection there and turn people: good for him.
* or, alternatively, he gets a cut.

[NICE!]

I can't believe we're still discussing whether someone should subject themselves to such atrocious fees.

Vanguard, hands-down. Even if you decided that you didn't buy the efficient market theory.

[greenmimama]

What about scrapping the house idea and using the yurt for long term housing? Looks like they can be pretty awesome and sounds like you two would enjoy that simple outdoorsy lifestyle.

I love your different outlook on life, keep putting family first!

[fa]

We have had AF and Vanguard.  AF was terrible.  Vanguard is the way to go, no doubt!!  Best of luck to you.

[2Birds1Stone]

Vanguard all the way

[Ambergris]

[

Why does Dave Ramsey endorse AF? Although he's a lot less interesting than MMM he's not an idiot. He preaches the same message but chooses AF over V.

I don't know.

I'd be guessing...
a) His focus is on people that are seriously hair-on-fire.  He thinks they *need* structure.  (He might be right, dunno.)  He thinks they require immediate reward.  (Hence his "pay smallest first" debt snowball.)   I can't say he's wrong necessarily.  He's appealing more often to the emotional side... and if he can make a connection there and turn people: good for him.   MMM is trying to appeal to the logical side... and if he can make a connection there and turn people: good for him.
b) or, alternatively, he gets a cut.

For those unaware, the answer is b), ladies and gentlemen. He gets a kickback. ELPs pay Dave Ramsey to be on his list¹.

For God's sake, go with Vanguard. They have low fees and excellent values. They are cheap because they are the investment company equivalent of a co-op. The funds are owned by the people that invest in them, and they pay the financial mangers to do the minimal simple financial management.

Active management, on the whole, adds nothing to a fund (with a very few exceptions, such as Buffett). The average actively managed fund does exactly the same on average, as an appropriately equivalent index fund. The difference is the fees. Index funds are guaranteed to get you a 50th percentile return compared to other funds before fees. They will get you generally higher than a 50th percentile return after fees (guaranteed). American has to beat the indexes by x% every year just to keep up with the index funds. That's extremely hard even for a good active manager to do.

P.S. Here's a webpage written by one of our forum members (Nords) who is critical of Dave Ramsey's ELP thing: http://retireearlyhomepage.com/daveramsey.html. See also http://time.com/money/2794698/save-like-dave-ramsey-just-dont-invest-like-him/.

¹Numbering (lettering?) added to make it more like a test. I like tests.

[CrewDallahan]

Alright guys, I get the point! VANGUARD and index funds. I'm going to pursue that route.

What about scrapping the house idea and using the yurt for long term housing? Looks like they can be pretty awesome and sounds like you two would enjoy that simple outdoorsy lifestyle. I love your different outlook on life, keep putting family first!

Greenmimama: Actually, after reading through more and more MMM posts my wife and I are being drawn to a more "stoic" lifestyle and we think we could be very content in a more traditional yurt for the next 10+ years. I mean, there's no property tax on non-permanent structures like these, we have access to a fresh-water spring, I can cut an unlimited supply of wood for FREE and we can plumb electricity to the site fairly easily from an underground primary cable. I would just need to have a transformer installed. THE COST SAVINGS COULD BE ASTRONOMICAL OVER A 10 YEAR PERIOD.

I think you need to make a scenario where you get a job that pays, say, $25k+ per year.

Waltworks: That's not out of the question, BUT- a couple things to consider: my wife and I own a small retail business called Travel Well (which we started using most of our nest egg that we saved by commercial salmon fishing in Alaska). The shop is what we invest our intelligence and creative energy into. It is our "career" so to speak. Perhaps it will produce a 25K income eventually (fingers crossed!) For now I'm happier with less thought-provoking jobs to fill in the gaps, even if they pay less.

MDM: Thanks for those links comparing Index funds and actively managed funds! I have some reading to do =)

[frugalfedmom]

Enjoyed your post very much! How much is your wife's school loans? Would it ease your monthly burden and give you some buffer to pay that loan off with some of your inheritance?

[Static Void]

+1 on Thanks for the Unusual Lifestyle Peek. :-)

To add on to what @greenmimama said...

I don't understand why some are advising against the YURT.

If you have access to the land, and can build a small living quarters* on it, for some modest mostly-one-time cost (10-20k?), that takes a lot of pressure off. Maybe you can afford time and money to build the "main house" sooner, or maybe later, or maybe never. But either way, you're not sharing an apartment any more.

Disclosure -- am a fan of DIY buildings, hopefully my envy is not misguided.

*presumably you have a story for electricity & plumbing & sanitation of some sort.

[Spork]

I don't understand why some are advising against the YURT.

If you have access to the land, and can build a small living quarters* on it, for some modest mostly-one-time cost (10-20k?), that takes a lot of pressure off. Maybe you can afford time and money to build the "main house" sooner, or maybe later, or maybe never. But either way, you're not sharing an apartment any more.

I don't know enough to have a good/bad opinion on them... but I lived 5 years in what was essentially a nice tool shed.   It's not that big a deal to me.