Author Topic: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?  (Read 1470 times)

HankWilliams

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Hi all,
I've been into FIRE for the last couple of years. VTI, Jim Collins, fear debt like the devil, live humble, etc. Love FIRE.

I have a dear, dear friend I'm worried about. She just told me her 13 y/o child got into a private Catholic school that will cost... $13000 per year.
That's roughly $78k from when he's 13-18 y/o.

Here's the details:
1. She's 45 y/o and single
2. 3 kids - 13, 11, and 2 y/o.
- The baby with a separate father. They're in a custodial war that has already cost her $30k this past year.
3. Job - massage therapist making maybe $60-70k per year.
4. Home - Owns a house that her father helps her with the mortgage. House value 500-600k.
5. Student loan debt -  I think $60k
6. Emergency/911 fund - Prob none
7. Retirement savings - none at 45 y/o.
8. Financial literacy  - Never taught about a Roth IRA, dollar cost averaging into simple index funds, compound interest, FIRE, 2nd generation FIRE, etc.

I've tried and tried for 8+ months to explain #7 above. Including opening/funding a Roth IRA before April 15 so she doesn't miss ONE MORE YEAR of compound interest growth into VTI.

She told me this morning:
a. Her oldest son at 13 got accepted into private Catholic school
b. Cost - $13000 - split b/w her and her Ex
c. He also has 2 other sons. So on any given night.... the Ex has 4 boys there. No idea how much he makes.
d. She said her and her Ex are going to take on 2nd jobs to cover the new, extra debt.
e. She said school/debt will give her son great "OPPORTUNITIES". I dont know who has confirmed these "opportunities" verus the "opportunity cost". What the "opportunities" are... compared to taking on more debt versus her starting a Roth IRA (and custodial accounts for the 3 boys) and adding to it annually over 30 years.

I'm deeply worried for her. The FIRE community is a bunch of BAD ASS REBELS that don't go with the status quo.
So I'm curious, is this a good idea for her son? For her?

Thank you bad ass Mustachians!!! 🤘🤘🤘

« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 01:45:47 PM by HankWilliams »

PMG

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2022, 01:43:33 PM »
Your friend had to be the one asking for advice. Until she asks for help everything you say and everything here is just hot air.

SailingOnASmallSailboat

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2022, 03:34:01 PM »
Your friend had to be the one asking for advice. Until she asks for help everything you say and everything here is just hot air.

^^ this.

I came here thinking it was you asking for advice, and the immediate response from me was HELL NO. It's not worth going into debt for private school in any circumstance that I can currently think of, and I'm a product of private school as well as someone who spent my entire career in private school, both in the classroom and on the admin side.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 03:36:39 PM by SailingOnASmallSailboat »

slugsworth

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2022, 03:34:35 PM »
I'm sure nearly everyone in this forum has examples like this. It sucks. But, you can't convince everyone(anyone) to follow your path.

I think I've turned maybe 2 people onto fire, and I think that is above average.

Blue Skies

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2022, 04:09:07 PM »
It sounds like her ex already has other kids attending that school.  Even if you convince HER that it is a bad idea, she will have to convince the ex.  Doesn't sound likely.

I personally see some value in private schools, but not enough to pay the tuition.  Friends of mine have made the choice to pay for private school and have been very happy with it.  I can't imagine anyone would be able to convince them they had made a poor choice.

I wouldn't even try to convince her to withdraw the kid. 

SailingOnASmallSailboat

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2022, 04:32:11 PM »
It sounds like her ex already has other kids attending that school.  Even if you convince HER that it is a bad idea, she will have to convince the ex.  Doesn't sound likely.

I personally see some value in private schools, but not enough to pay the tuition.  Friends of mine have made the choice to pay for private school and have been very happy with it.  I can't imagine anyone would be able to convince them they had made a poor choice.

I wouldn't even try to convince her to withdraw the kid.

I'm not saying private schools aren't worth it - they are, in many cases. And also they're not, in others. The question is about going into debt to pay for it. That's a HELL NO.

HankWilliams

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2022, 06:36:33 PM »
After reading into this thread and a couple other threads, I've posted... everybody agrees that this is none of my damn business. And that I'm out of line.

I care about her and dont want to see her sink into more debt. But I've been scolded on some reddit forums so apparently I suck and need to back away.

It just hurts when I "believe" being forward thinking about retirement with regularly maxing out a Roth IRA, simply DCAing into VTI, being consistent over 20+ years will help her, but I'm ignored.

But a stranger/mainstream society says "this is a great opportunity" (even though you're going to have to go into debt). And that opinion matters more.

I suppose I have no idea what Im talking about, so I'll shut up... and as they say MYOFB.

PMG

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2022, 06:39:30 PM »
I’d say you can gently let her know you think it’s a bad idea and that she can create just as much opportunity for her kids by being an active parent with them in the public system. And let her know you’d worry about what the debt would do to her retirement.   Friends do speak up and bring up concerns. But then you need to let it go.  If she asks for more then you can offer more.

SunnyDays

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2022, 07:00:55 PM »
If you feel you really need to approach it with her, try asking questions to get her to think about the long term ramifications to her.  Something like “wow, that’s a lot of money, how will you afford that?” and “So, what does that mean for your own savings and retirement?” etc.  Even if she comes up with easy answers now, she will likely think more about it over time.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 09:07:13 PM by SunnyDays »

Pigeon

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2022, 07:47:25 PM »
Nobody here thinks you suck. We agree that private school is a terrible idea here. It’s hard to see people you care about making stupid decisions. You’ve said your bit to her I think. The thing is, it’s her stupid decision to make.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 09:55:07 PM by Pigeon »

Morning Glory

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2022, 08:06:26 PM »
What does the kid want? Is his heart set on going or is he ambivalent? Most importantly, which parent encouraged him to apply,  knowing the tuition was that expensive? Kids get jerked around so much in divorce it might be a power play by the ex to get mom to say no and be the bad guy.

 Another thought is that if the kid wants to go and the parents are willing to pay, it had better be sustainable through the whole 4-5 years. (Stable jobs, no planned moves, etc.). There's nothing worse for a kid than switching schools in 11th grade for one with fewer "opportunities ", especially if the kid is convinced that this school is his one shot at succeeding in life.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 08:15:48 PM by Morning Glory »

charis

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2022, 08:13:59 PM »
You are taking the negative responses too personally and acting defensively. It's not about you. It's great that you care and are trying to help a friend, and it sucks that they are choosing this path. But you have no control over the situation and unless they are asking for advice or have a history of doing so, you can only gently say your piece and move on.

Tyson

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2022, 11:50:26 PM »
I make it a rule to never, ever give finance or life advice to anyone.  Because I've learned - it's bad if they don't take the advice, but it's even worse if they do take it.  It's a literal no-win situation. 

At most, nowadays if someone asks or brings up the topic, I'll point them to the MMM "Zero to Hero" post on his blog.  It's all there, if they want to take action, great.  If not, well then *shrug*.

Captain FIRE

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2022, 07:20:40 AM »
I’d say you can gently let her know you think it’s a bad idea and that she can create just as much opportunity for her kids by being an active parent with them in the public system. And let her know you’d worry about what the debt would do to her retirement.   Friends do speak up and bring up concerns. But then you need to let it go.  If she asks for more then you can offer more.

+1

Debt is bad, but you know what else is bad?  A second negative coparenting relationship when she already has one over Kid3.  In this case, it may be worthwhile to consider that she has evaluated a lot of factors, including whether backing out of an agreement now with Ex1 when Kid1 has already applied and gotten in, would be something she's willing to take on.  Private school debt is not something you or I would choose to take on, but we're not the ones making the decision.  The time to provide unsolicited advice on this one may be past its peak.

kite

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Re: 45, single, 3 kids, no nest egg: Is private school worth going into debt?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2022, 10:09:37 AM »
Answering the "is the private school worth it?" question requires information that isn't provided.   Given what we know, the only reasonable answer is "Maybe!"

All the detail about her present financial circumstances is irrelevant. And you can stop worrying about her life going to hell in a handbasket.  She's fine.***
The only question that matters is:
Is there a near enough public school that meets the child's needs?

One can never assume. Often the reason the non-public alternatives still exist and parents are willing to pay for them is that the public/charter options are abysmal. If your local school sucks, it's your kid's life and future that is at stake. It's your kid, and you can't wait years for the schools to turn around once all the financial, political, infrastructural and social investment in improvement finally occurs.

Fifty years ago, my folks sent their first few kids to public high-school. In those days, the place was pretty rough. A few things happened that I won't go into, but the upshot was that the youngest seven of us had no choice. Mom put her foot down. We were going to Catholic high-school.  It was an extreme financial sacrifice. Extreme. My folks were frugal and we didn't starve. There weren't the need-based scholarships that exist today for parochial school. You paid or your kid went elsewhere. We weren't a low-income family, but we lived like one so they could pay the tuition.

My husband, who really was poor, had far more material comforts in his childhood because their low-income meant they qualified for free breakfast & lunch, food stamps, heating vouchers, etc. (I could do a decent rant about the Christmas presents & the heaps of toys they got). Of course, he also went to that local public high school and suffered for it. My Dad's income was solidly middle-class, stretched by having lots of kids and then further stretched because they spent so much on tuition. In the going-thru-it years, it did feel like we were deprived and that other kids had more. In hindsight, I'm very grateful. In the case of my local school options, Catholic was superior in several ways. The education was better, the opportunities were better and it was safer. But it's a hyper local question.

I can read about Virginia Walden Ford's efforts and recognize my mother and her mother before her who moved heaven and earth to put my Mom in a Catholic girls' high-school. We're also Catholic, so there was an ideological alignment.
For my siblings, some ultimately chose the same Catholic HS for their kids, some used the (by then much improved) public school or nearby public schools from neighboring towns for their kids and grandkids.  And some went very fancy, sending their kiddos to really chic prep schools. Any school can still be a bad fit. Sometimes families need to pay when they find the right one.

Your friend will be fine. Her son may or may not thrive in this Catholic school.  Personally, I think it's pointless if they aren't Catholic.  But if they are, and they belong to a parish, there is often financial aid to help further a Catholic education if the tuition represents a genuine hardship.


***She's fine.
I say this with full confidence because 100% of the time when someone presents an untenable or unsustainable financial situation, they have a rabbit in their hat.  Or they have a trust, or an inheritance or a sugar daddy or something that didn't factor into the first dump of information.  It's hinted at here with "father helps with the mortgage" which tells me that the teen's grandpa has enough to help his daughter. Should grandpa subsidize a lifestyle that includes private school? What would he rather do with his money? These are rhetorical. It's not our concern.   

She's fine.

You are allowed to care about her, offer advice and make suggestions. But for your own peace of mind, figure out how to not let this bother you.  If taking on this expense turns out to be a giant mistake, it's not going to be her last one. It's clearly not her first.