Author Topic: 35,000 roof  (Read 6520 times)

sattmanderson88

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35,000 roof
« on: April 01, 2014, 01:58:23 PM »
Hey everyone, longtime reader first time poster.

Here is the deal, I'm a 25 year old who has been living the mustachian lifestyle for some time now. I make about 30K per year from my job, and am able to save 15K (plus I get rental income on top of that, more about that later). I bike to work, and drive a scooter for longer trips (102 MPG).

I also own a three story single home thats been converted into three one-bedroom apartments. My mortgage payment is only $747 a month and I owe about 100K. I get $900 a month in rental income from the folks who rent the bottom floor and will be getting an additional $900 a month from folks renting the top floor starting in June.

My roof is 30 years old, and I'd like to get it replaced before the new tenants move in in June. Pretty much every roof on the property is in some disrepair, peeling shingles, rotted wood a front porch whose roof is becoming separated from the building slightly, etc.

There is probably a total of 2000 square feet of roof on the house, top roof, front and back porches, bay windows, etc. and I asked a company called Global Home improvement to give me an estimate. If you live in the Philadelphia area you'll know them because they do the roofs on all the new Wawa's.

He offered to redo every piece of roof on the property, including capping the boards around the edge of the top roof (which are damaged and let pigeons and squirrels in from time to time), and add high end gutters to the top and porch roofs. Everything would be backed up by a transferable lifetime warrantee, except the appearance of the paint on the roof (35 years) and the gutters (20 years). The fine print on the lifetime warrantee is that if I sell it it turns into a 50-year guarantee for the new owner, and the company has been in business for 18 years (so who knows if they'll be around or not, but they seem to be doing well for themselves).

He originally quoted me $46,500, but was willing to back down to 39k, then 35k when I told him I could get a loan from my parents and pay cash.

I signed on the dotted line with the assurance that I can cancel at any time before this Friday and get my full deposit back ($500).

Between the savings I have now, and the income I'll have coming in by August 7th I could pay off 27k out of the 35k, then pay the next 8K + interest over about the next six months. I'm not a roofer, and don't have the experience necessary to do something like this myself. I could do a shingles everywhere for probably 10-15K, but I do prefer the idea of never having to deal with the roof again. I also live in a neighborhood (where I grew up) where all of the houses are approaching 100 years old and there is value for me in preserving them, and doing things right in terms of repairs.

I've got two other roofers coming over tomorrow to give me competing estimates. Hopefully they'll give me something lower for a comparable package, or at least something I can leverage to the global folks, I'm fairly confident I could get them to bring down the price a little if I had a credible offer from another company for a similar product.

I'm looking for other folks thoughts, especially if you've got roofing experience. Is 35K a crazy price to pay for roofing, even metal? Is it worth it to set myself back about a year in terms of savings to put a roof on my income-producing building that I should never have to think about again?

nereo

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2014, 02:16:44 PM »
Did you read MMM's post on metal roofs?
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/24/how-to-install-a-metal-roof/

I've never lived in Philly, so I can't comment on prices there. My parents put a metal roof on their house maybe 8 years ago and they absolutely love it.
The warranty is excellent but few companies are around for 50 years (or your lifetime).

Show the other two companies his offer and get them to compete.
That's what the free-market is all about.
Check Angie's list, previous customers and the BBB before hiring any of them to make sure they are good contractors.

Spork

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2014, 02:20:19 PM »

If it is metal, that's about what was proposed for my house of approximately the same size.  (Actually was quoted $40k for 2500ish sq ft house with complicated and steep roof line.)

I was somewhat jealous of MMM's metal roof posting... but was doing other parts of the house build and really had to contract that part out or not get done in a reasonable timeframe.

I ended up going with composite for about $10k.  It's not nearly as pretty as metal and certainly not as long lasting.  I just couldn't bite off the extra $30k.

Another Reader

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2014, 02:50:10 PM »
That price seems insanely high.  Get three roofers (licensed roofing contractors, not overpriced home improvement companies) to bid the job including the repairs, pronto, and then cancel that contract.

Thegoblinchief

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2014, 03:47:03 PM »
Seems about right for metal roofs in my area, but after reading the aforementioned blog post, I really wonder about the market rate for metal. Yikes.

Flaneur

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2014, 05:50:27 PM »
What type of roof is this? It sounds like it's asphalt shingles. Any chance you could post the address so we can see the construction of the roof?

You need to ask him what the difference is between the $35,000 quote and the $46,500 quote. If the difference is in the materials get copies of the material lists and post them here; I'm a roofing contractor on the other side of the country and while our costs are going to be different I can at least give you an idea of what it would cost me to supply the materials. If there's no difference in materials then this contractor is a scumbag and you should report him to the appropriate agency.

It's hard to say if the price is high or low by itself. No two contractors have the same overhead and job costs, so no two contractors will offer the same prices. If one contractor is using name-brand laminate shingles and quality underlayment while the other is supplying factory seconds for shingles and Chinese underlayment with no ASTM rating there's going to be a massive variance in price. The pitch of the roof, the amount of sheathing that needs replacement, any additional wood work, etc. can add to the price quite a bit and it's impossible for any of us to say how much it would cost to repair those kinds of things without physically being there.

Definitely get more quotes. Getting contractors to compete with one another is a great strategy: keep searching until you find one who won't alter his price based on the prices of competitors, and that's the contractor you'll want to consider doing business with.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 05:54:43 PM by Flaneur »

sattmanderson88

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2014, 08:03:31 PM »
To clarify some things:

There was never any change in the services offered between the original quote of $46,500 and $35,000. Both quotes were for standing seam metal roofs with lifetime guarantees and high quality gutters with a 20 year guarantee.

They do a large amount of the manufacturing themselves on site, and have a patent on a robot that seals the roof. Of course I don't care how they do it as long as it lasts forever and takes minimal or no maintenance. They do have a fairly solid warrantee and excellent reviews everywhere I've looked online.

On the other hand he was using pretty standard hard sell tactics (offering all sorts of incentives to sign up today vs thinking about it longer, etc.) and I want to make sure I'm not being played for a sucker.

I'll put an update tomorrow with what the other roofers quote me. Anything else I should consider while talking to the other roofers and/or the original Global Home Improvement (the original contractor)?

MDM

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2014, 08:11:22 PM »
I'd be surprised, but pleasantly so, if you could get an answer to "how many dollars for materials and how many dollars for labor?"

If you had that breakdown for all quotes you would be in a better position to judge.

You should get quotes for non-metal roofs also.  Economics probably favor metal at lower multiples (e.g. MMM's 1.3X), but when you get up to 3X, 4X, etc. the economics probably favor non-metal.

Insanity

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2014, 08:53:48 PM »
I'd be surprised, but pleasantly so, if you could get an answer to "how many dollars for materials and how many dollars for labor?"

If you had that breakdown for all quotes you would be in a better position to judge.

You should get quotes for non-metal roofs also.  Economics probably favor metal at lower multiples (e.g. MMM's 1.3X), but when you get up to 3X, 4X, etc. the economics probably favor non-metal.

I'd honestly require the cost of materials vs labor split out before dealing with anyone.

The contractor that did our kitchen did that, so I don't see why a roofer can't.

totoro

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2014, 09:27:32 PM »
Are you planning on keeping this rental for a really long time?  I look at my ownership window and cost vs. benefit.  A very expensive roof may not recoup its cost if you sell.  If you plan to keep the house for more than the life cycle of a cheaper roof it may be worth it.  The mmm post on metal roofs seems to indicate that your quote includes a huge profit margin - which you may not be able to change unless you find a way to take on the project yourself.

Rural

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2014, 03:29:32 AM »
I'd be surprised, but pleasantly so, if you could get an answer to "how many dollars for materials and how many dollars for labor?"

If you had that breakdown for all quotes you would be in a better position to judge.

You should get quotes for non-metal roofs also.  Economics probably favor metal at lower multiples (e.g. MMM's 1.3X), but when you get up to 3X, 4X, etc. the economics probably favor non-metal.

I'd honestly require the cost of materials vs labor split out before dealing with anyone.

The contractor that did our kitchen did that, so I don't see why a roofer can't.


Contractors are used to spitting out costs. It's common practice. Now, if a customer is foolish enough not to insist, they won't offer.

sattmanderson88

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2014, 06:31:12 AM »
Thanks everyone,

I'll ask the contractors today to split out labor vs. material cost, it seems obvious in retrospect to ask for that while comparing, but I've never done this before so I appreciate the tips.

As far as how long I'm planning to own the place, the short answer is a long time. I currently live on the second floor and will continue to live here for at least the next 5 years. After that, I should have enough capital put a down payment on a new house and use the rental income from this one to pay both mortgages. I don't have any plans to sell currently, even down the road.

I can imagine that changing at some point though, and even if thats in 15 years, a shingle roof would still be in ok shape. Do you guys think the transferable lifetime warrantee has any cash value in terms of resale? Does anyone have experience selling a house with metal roofing? Would it/how much value should it add to a potential sale price?


totoro

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2014, 08:33:50 AM »
I personally am willing to pay more for a metal roof, but my perception is that others might not.  I say that as improvements to plumbing, electrical and drainage often don't pay back upon resale.  Things that give good ROI are things that improve curb appeal and interior appeal/functionality.  The majority of people seem to be impressed more with the design of the kitchen, bathroom, interior, floor plans and exterior of the house and roof.

http://realtormag.realtor.org/home-and-design/cost-vs-value/article/2013/01/2012-13-cost-vs-value-make-first-impression-count

Greg

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2014, 10:08:58 AM »
I would do a lot more shopping around. 

In my area of the PNW, standing seam metal roofing runs about $2/sq.ft. for materials.  So, figure $4K to $5K for materials for 2000 sq. ft. of roof.  About that much again for labor, plus tear-off and some for set up/safety and also gutters. 

But, in short I think the quote is ridiculous.

sattmanderson88

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2014, 11:54:13 AM »
So I got the quote from one of the other roofers who came and looked at the apartment: 65,500! This guys comments when he was here was that he has competed agains the company who made the original bid before and that he usually comes in lower, so I was floored.

Milspecstache

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Re: 35,000 roof
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2014, 05:13:13 PM »
You must have an insane pitch with many valleys and ridges to be getting these quotes...  Any chance you could post a picture?