The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Potterquilter on July 23, 2015, 05:17:38 PM
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We have a group of friends we see about monthly and have for years, and one couple constantly talks about how poor they are. They pinch every penny. When we get together they make minimal contributions yet feel free to drink other people's beer or eat their food. They borrow a lot of stuff. Get people to give them a ride to the airport instead of parking a car there and paying the fee even for a few days. get people to take their dog instead of boarding (dog is poorly trained, I won't take him).
At a recent event they were pretty tipsy and wife disclosed they have about two million dollars. Everyone was flabbergasted. the husband was furious telling her it was none of anybody's business and they had a huge fight in front of everyone. A few days later she called the hostess to apologize and admitted they did have that high net worth. the hostess could not hide her disgust that all of us had pitched in to help them numerous times, all the while they were just being hoarders.
Needless to say the rest of this group feels very taken advantage of. So many people have helped them out and all the while they were being stingy and selfish. We will have nothing to do with them. Would you confront them? Leave it alone.
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I wouldn't waste my time confronting them. That would solve nothing and take effort.
But they're dead now.
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Yeah there's frugal and there's cheap.
This is clearly cheap and not someone I would associate with.
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Some of the stuff does not sound that bad. Driving to the airport? Watching their dog? Aren' t those things friends normally do. As far as eating/drinking goes, if that is a habit, then yeah, OK, that is not good. The rest does not sound so bad.
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For me the bigger issue would be the lack of trust and that they have been lying to your face for many years. Why make a big production about being poor and guilting and deceiving people. It would have been far more honest to just say that you are saving to reach a goal and that is why they are pinching pennies. Brutal. If they are people you still want to be friends with, I would have a conversation about the hurt caused by the deception.
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Wow. I'd ask them how they saved 2M. LOL
Sounds like they did a lot of uncool things
... constantly talks about how poor they are. ... When we get together they make minimal contributions yet feel free to drink other people's beer or eat their food. ...
We will have nothing to do with them. Would you confront them? Leave it alone.
Sounds like you should leave it alone.
I actually agree, like AZ, and have done or been on the giving end of the other things and find them mustacian as long as one reciprocates.
Ie borrow stuff, trips to airport, dog sitting.
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If you're only going away for a few days and have the funds, then yeah, I think that you should pay for parking. It's an imposition to ask someone to drive you. I feel this way about people who don't have cars in places where public transportation isn't good. There's a mom of my son's classmate who always loudly announces that she doesn't have a car, as if that makes her somehow more frugal and environmental than the rest of us. This would be great, if she wasn't always asking people for rides to the grocery store or other places. In that case, she is just inconveniencing other people so that she can save money and keep a certain view of herself as not owning a car.
I have found with our friend group that we aged out of asking people for rides or asking people to help you move in exchange for beer and pizza. If you ask for help for those things, it needs to be a true need rather than just a desire to save money.
I sometimes get annoyed with friends who ask year after year to borrow our steam cleaner. Why don't you buy your own, especially since those things are easy to break when transporting them. But I don't say anything, because they have done favors in the past and the relationship is thus not one-sided. It sounds like the situation with your friends was entirely one-sided and that they were taking advantage.
I would have a hard time being friends with these people after all this.
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, I pretty much know my "friends" financial situations. These people were just Lieing aquaitences.
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They are laughing their way to FIRE now.
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While they do sound like cheap bastards, I'm definitely in the camp that thinks there's nothing wrong with asking your friends for rides to the airport or to watch your dog while you're gone. Sure, I could afford to pay for parking and board my dogs, but those are pretty small favors that lots of people are happy to do, particularly if you return the favor.
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I sometimes ask friends for a ride to or from the airport; I do plenty of random stuff for them (in particular, I'm the guy who gets called whenever any thing heavy needs to be moved). Technically, we could both easily afford to pay people for these services, but we both save money, and being frugal people, are happy about that. However, it is another thing if they never entirely if they never ever reciprocate. Its not necessarily that they have to reciprocate a ride-for-a-ride, but there has to be something.
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While they do sound like cheap bastards, I'm definitely in the camp that thinks there's nothing wrong with asking your friends for rides to the airport or to watch your dog while you're gone. Sure, I could afford to pay for parking and board my dogs, but those are pretty small favors that lots of people are happy to do, particularly if you return the favor.
These small things are fine if you return the favor and don't take advantage. They clearly didn't do the right thing with their share of the food. If they didn't make up for it by giving noticeably more favors than they received, then it's time to be done with them.
I would probably give then one last thing... the courtesy of a brief explanation as to why I was done with them.
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Absolutely agree with the last few comments. I swap dog sitting with friends all the time. I didn't have a working car for awhile so I got rides from a friend but she didn't need any help with anything in return so I gave her gas money. Plus she lives two neighborhoods over and we were going to the same sports' practice together so I wasn't just asking her drive me around town to run errands for myself. I can't stand when people are inconsiderate moochers!
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Sounds like they are closet mustachians, however perhaps with a bad attitude who could use some perspective on life and how to treat their friends. I agree with the pthers though about the dog and rides, that's what mustachians do. Why pay for it if you don't have to, as long as favors are returned. Maybe they need to work on a couple things.
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I have found with our friend group that we aged out of asking people for rides or asking people to help you move in exchange for beer and pizza. If you ask for help for those things, it needs to be a true need rather than just a desire to save money.
I sometimes get annoyed with friends who ask year after year to borrow our steam cleaner. Why don't you buy your own, especially since those things are easy to break when transporting them. But I don't say anything, because they have done favors in the past and the relationship is thus not one-sided. It sounds like the situation with your friends was entirely one-sided and that they were taking advantage.
Ha ha I totally respect whatever the social mores are with your group but it kind of reminds me of one of those buzzfeed-type articles about "30 things you shouldn't do after you're 30." I was just discussing one with a co-worker today. Apparently he had read one that said, "Don't wear jeans on the golf course." Okay. Two I remember are, "don't use toilet paper in place of kleenex" and "buy real garbage bags rather than re-using shopping bags." So, um, apparently maturity = spending money. Sadly I see this among younger colleagues who celebrate a big paycheck by buying new furniture and bragging that they feel so adult.
Sucks about the steam cleaner. Hopefully there's an understanding that if it breaks they buy you a replacement. Maybe this time they can keep it at their house so you don't have to store it.
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It's hilarious to me that a number of people on this forum, including myself, could someday be perceived the same way as the "mooching" friends.
Think about it.
1. A number of us have decided to not talk about our FI journey to family/friends/acquaintances (for obvious reasons) and instead pursue stealth wealth. We'll drive old cars into the ground. We won't upgrade our wardrobe every year. We'll talk about how much things cost and sometimes suggest cheaper alternatives. All things that sound normal to us, but that others could perceive as acting poor. Is behaving like you are poor really so different than "pretending" like you're poor?
2. There's a fine line between taking a fair amount of food/drink in social situations and too much food/drink, and it's often in the eye of the beholder, who has imperfect information.
Once you reach FI and some people realize how wealthy you are, are you really so sure others won't recall every favor they ever did for you, any small thing they did that saved you money, and say, What the Hell!? Are you 100% sure that, after being surprised to learn about how rich you are, they'll look at the ledger book of favors you did for them and favors they did for you and conclude that it's balanced?
I'm sure as hell not :)
All valid points. Of course, I am reading into things that are not stated in the post - but the tone sounded very much like the "friends" went around and complained about being unable to afford things (contributing to holiday parties, airport parking) and then took advantage of everyone.
I don't think (or hope) that the people on this forum are going around saying, "I am so tight on money this month, I can barely afford rent! I couldn't afford to park my car at the airport, can you give me a ride?" which is what the OP's situation sounds like. I think most of us would, to our friends, be like, "hey! mind driving me to the airport?" and return the favor if it came up. Maybe buy the friend a beer or something for helping us out. Not bemoan our supposed "lack of money" and have a total lack of appreciation for our friends' help.
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I agree with lbmustache. You've also got to consider that this is someone who I assume is themselves already mustachian, commenting on these people.
So if relative to a mustachian you seem cheap then its probably going to be pretty bad.
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Knowing anyone's net worth is not really reaction-worthy to me without context. Some people are just more comfortable asking for favors all the time and I would not penalize a friend for asking if they don't penalize me for saying no. But if they are insisting and appending false complaints that imply they were needs rather than wants (and use this to often get their way) I would say it is an appropriate reaction. Some people seem to be able to justify that their presence is a reward for others and it is expected for others to do things for them to earn their time. The difference can be subtle but I took the OP's post to mean that these people are being overt in their methods of extracting financial gain out of their relationships.
I don't ask anything of anybody because I hate the implied social contracts being built. I don't hold others to the same standard as long as I feel they are not costing me money and time because I've long accepted most people don't work this way. I spend time as I see fit and that will occasionally mean giving a favor I know I will never call in. But I do think it is fair to feel slighted if there was some communicated understanding that the situation was a certain way. After establishing someone as a pathological liar, particularly for personal gain at my cost, would cause me to change my behavior toward them. I probably wouldn't be confronting or combative about it because that is a waste of time.
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Hmmm, this is interesting.
I know there are people around me who assume I am poor because I drive an old car. Car shop guys, for example, always assume I can't afford repairs. Acquaintances and family might sometimes offer to do things for me because they think I'm poor, but can I really help that? I set the record straight if I think people aren't letting me reciprocate or pay less than my share consistently. I haven't ever said "oh dear, I'm so poor," but I have definitely been guilty of suggesting cheaper alternatives to plans I think are too spendypants. I've had people refuse to let me pay for my kids on something even when I try to insist, stating that kids are free when I don't think they should be. Of course those who know me well realize that I am at best a bit "eccentric," not poor. Will all of these people be pissed at me when I retire before they do? Probably, alas.
I've also known a couple of people whom everyone else considered cheap or mooches. One guy didn't have a car and was constantly bumming rides everywhere, but never offering even gas money. Another guy just never offered to drive if people were car pooling, then drew attention to that fact by always making some odd comment about not wanting to put mileage on his car. Another couple would invite us to dinner out, then not order anything themselves, watch us eat, then try to eat our leftovers. "You gonna eat those fries?" That last one was by far the most odd and awkward . . . the whole going out thing was THEIR IDEA! The second time they did that I decided it was the last time I'd accept an invite from them.
I'm all for giving rides to the airport (I live close, by all means leave your car at my place!), but I never ask for pet care from neighbors unless I can reciprocate. I do have someone I love who feeds my fish, and he has no pets, but I try to give back in other ways.
So, like dobedo, I guess I can see both sides of this story.
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OP here. I loved all the responses. I did not make some things really clear. These are the type of people who borrow a truck to run to pick something up and return it with a quarter tank of gas missing. They ask for a ride to and from the airport but always seem to be busy when they are asked. Constantly talk about how poor they are.
There is a huge difference between frugal and cheap. Frugal people make concious decisions about how much money they spend and the value of what they are spending it on. They have reciprocal relationships. You lend me your great mulch carrying wheelbarrow and pitchfork, I help you out when you need someone to walk the dog when you will be home really late. If I need a ride to the airport, I give you gas money. It is not about making things equal, but being reciprocal.
I am super frugal, but also super generous. If someone brings me a basket of tomatoes from their garden, I make extra soup and drop it off in thanks. We have one car, if I got stuck somewhere I would call a taxi, or if I called a friend would reciprocate by doing something nice in return.
I think we all gave them a lot of leeway through the years because they played the poor card.
I think I am going to sit back and watch how it plays out. Actually I feel bad for them. Multi millionaires bitching about how poor they are. Think of the good use they could make of that money while still having a fabulous life.
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I wouldn't waste my time confronting them. That would solve nothing and take effort.
But they're dead now.
+1
Also, legit chuckled.
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What a timely thread...
My sibling and I just found out that our other sibling has plenty of resources but for years has been telling a "I don't have the money" story to us and our parents. As a generous and close (we thought!) family, we had all pitched in to be sure that the "poor" sibling could join family vacations (money for airfare, meals/hotels as needed, etc.). Now we find out (through our sibling's slip of the tongue) that there has always been plenty of money for vacations, shiny new toys, etc. All attempts to address (one on one, in various formats) the lack of honesty and taking money have been meet with refusal to discuss.
The lying and, now, the refusal to take responsibility is what hurts most. The good news is that the money hasn't been going to feed an addiction to alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc. From what we can tell, it's about not being able to be honest about a preference to spend resources on travel/toys rather than family visits. If it wasn't my sibling, I'd be very likely to cut the connection. Lying and refusal to take responsibility for one's actions are hard issues to resolve. I'm fine with people making their choices - just be honest that it's a choice (vs. saying that you're too poor when it's really a matter of you preferring to use your money in a different way).
Much more difficult and more painful than my situation. Hang in there.
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What a timely thread...
My sibling and I just found out that our other sibling has plenty of resources but for years has been telling a "I don't have the money" story to us and our parents. As a generous and close (we thought!) family, we had all pitched in to be sure that the "poor" sibling could join family vacations (money for airfare, meals/hotels as needed, etc.). Now we find out (through our sibling's slip of the tongue) that there has always been plenty of money for vacations, shiny new toys, etc. All attempts to address (one on one, in various formats) the lack of honesty and taking money have been meet with refusal to discuss.
Ha! I may be this sibling. I wouldn't consider it lying because there's no "I can't pay rent!" but there may be some "I can't afford that right now" when I really mean, without giving offense, "Why would I waste money flying to Vegas?" No one's ever paid for my travel expenses but there certainly have been situations, like dinner, where the parents have insisted on paying. Is that because they're being generous parents or because they worry about my part-time job and my inconsistent job history?
Wait, they did pay for one trip. My parents paid for travel to a sibling's overseas wedding. They offered first but maybe they that was because they assumed that I (we) couldn't afford it? Hmm.
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I think I am going to sit back and watch how it plays out. Actually I feel bad for them. Multi millionaires bitching about how poor they are. Think of the good use they could make of that money while still having a fabulous life.
Like others, I'd be done associating with these people. Real friends do not lie to extract financial gain from you. Real friends reciprocate help. It seems clear their $2MM is worth more than treating people honestly and respectfully.
And hey, at least you found out. They could still be mooching if you hadn't.
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Nothing wrong with asking favours. I earn six figures and yet a friend is going to feed and watch my cat while I'm gone. Because I trust her to treat her well and her kids look forward to kitty playtime.
What's wrong is to emotionally blackmail people by claiming you're poor when you are not.
I would be done with them.
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Well, I'm not sure if they have lied to you or not, 'poor' is a perspective thing for most people. If they have had the opportunity to help out any of the friends, and haven't, and blamed it on a lack of money... well, that's something to walk away from. But if they have just lived their life on the cheap, and given the perspective that they didn't have much money... that's not all that bad. My in-laws probably think I don't make much, because I under-bought with my house, and vehicles, etc, and don't go on vacations with any of them.
These people might be worth having a conversation with, just to learn their saving technique. I wouldn't shun them just yet.
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Whelp...
We get the neighbours to watch our dog if we're away.
Our inlaws drive us to the airport.
A coworker cleans the pool and cuts the lawn when we're gone.
Another coworker lent a hand when we built a retaining wall.
We don't bring lavish dishes to potlucks - its food not an art display.
But we expect to reciprocate on everything too. IMO if you help me out, I'm available to help you. And if you want fancy crap for your potluck, you should let us know - I've done cookie swaps like that before.
Could I get some tips from your friends on building my net worth?
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I think the lesson here is to be honest when you don't want to do things, rather than saying you can't afford something. Our close group of friends goes to Vegas almost every year, and we have never gone. Now I wonder if they think we are cheap. I'm almost positive they don't think that we can't afford the trip, but who knows. I'm known as a pretty big stick-in-the-mud, so they might just think my lameness has also rubbed off on my husband and that's why we don't go.
Perhaps we should say things like, "I think insert random event or trip is too expensive or not in my budget at the moment", rather than saying we can't afford it. I could see how the latter could be misconstrued.
There was once that I complained on Facebook about how much a local children's fair cost. It was through a local city, and I believe it cost $20 a person for unlimited rides. And these weren't Six Flags rides - more like lame carnival rides. I wasn't about to spend $40 for my 5 and 3 year olds (at the time) to ride a bunch of little rides. Anyway, my mother-in-law sent me a private message offering to pay so that our kids could go. At this point, I could have accepted. But I refused, because clearly we had the money; we just didn't think such an event was a good value.
I think what I'm trying to say is that, if family or friends offer to pay for things when you decline to attend because of cost, you probably shouldn't accept their generous offer. That way when you go to retire in five years, there won't be built up resentment about all the times they paid for you. I'm not saying those of you who have accepted offers in the past have done anything wrong per se, but I'm just not sure it's worth the strain it will put on your relationship.
And I guess we just all have to accept that we will be considered non-joiners or stick-in-the-mud because of our desire to grow our investments :).
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I see it a little differently Justajane.
I think society interprets "I have enough money for that" as I can afford it.
While we interpret "I can do this without adversely affecting my net worth" or "I can do this and recover the cost by..." as being able to afford something.
How many people do we hear say "I can afford this trip to Hawaii if I put it in payments for 36 months" to a lot of people they can afford something if they can find a way to pay for it. We see it as not affordable and look for alternatives.So for me to be sitting with $100 in my pocket and say I can't afford to go out for lunch is entirely true. I can't. Not if I have the intent to invest that money and let it fester away to become 20 lunches out - which I won't be able to afford without bumping my schedule. There would be consequences I'm uncomfortable with.
The whole notion of 'affordability' has been so twisted by society that most people don't know what the word means anymore.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/afford - We've forgotten the "serious consequence or adverse affect."
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Is it possible that they are nuts? As in, they really do think that they are poor, and have some psychological problem, like hoarding only with money.
In that case, they weren't being deceptive to the same extent as if they are just cheapskates. Though it would be odd if they both had the same disorder.....
And if it were a true disorder, they wouldn't have reacted to the eventual disclosure that way
OK, never mind.....
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Pretty sure we're the cheap bastards with our group of friends. One couple in particular is almost compulsive about out-spending us. If we're out, and I buy a pitcher of beer or two for the table, they'll respond with shots of Patron. Just frustrating, because I'm not trying to be cheap. The one time he let me pick up the tab was after we had shot his guns at the range. I still had to say "c'mon man I just shot off $50 worth of your ammunition - let me buy lunch."
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Some of the stuff does not sound that bad. Driving to the airport? Watching their dog? Aren' t those things friends normally do. As far as eating/drinking goes, if that is a habit, then yeah, OK, that is not good. The rest does not sound so bad.
Seriously, mooching food and drink isn't nice- but these other things. These are the things friends do!
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I do quite a few of these things while hoarding money
1. my brother lives by the airport - anytime im gone longer than 4-5 days i have him drop me off and pick me up. throw him 20 bucks for his effort
2. i own a boat - i dont own a truck i borrow my cousins and give him a bottle of whiskey or buy him lunch
3. i have 2 bears at home i have my parents come feed and water them when we go on vacation. usually take them out to dinner for this
I think you can do these things but you need to help out the people helping you in whatever way you can.
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I do quite a few of these things while hoarding money
1. my brother lives by the airport - anytime im gone longer than 4-5 days i have him drop me off and pick me up. throw him 20 bucks for his effort
2. i own a boat - i dont own a truck i borrow my cousins and give him a bottle of whiskey or buy him lunch
3. i have 2 bears at home i have my parents come feed and water them when we go on vacation. usually take them out to dinner for this
I think you can do these things but you need to help out the people helping you in whatever way you can.
WTF?
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3. i have 2 bears at home i have my parents come feed and water them when we go on vacation. usually take them out to dinner for this
You have bears???
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3. i have 2 bears at home i have my parents come feed and water them when we go on vacation. usually take them out to dinner for this
You have bears???
yeah a Newfoundland and a great Pyrenees
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I think the lesson here is to be honest when you don't want to do things, rather than saying you can't afford something. Our close group of friends goes to Vegas almost every year, and we have never gone. Now I wonder if they think we are cheap. I'm almost positive they don't think that we can't afford the trip, but who knows. I'm known as a pretty big stick-in-the-mud, so they might just think my lameness has also rubbed off on my husband and that's why we don't go.
Perhaps we should say things like, "I think insert random event or trip is too expensive or not in my budget at the moment", rather than saying we can't afford it. I could see how the latter could be misconstrued.
There was once that I complained on Facebook about how much a local children's fair cost. It was through a local city, and I believe it cost $20 a person for unlimited rides. And these weren't Six Flags rides - more like lame carnival rides. I wasn't about to spend $40 for my 5 and 3 year olds (at the time) to ride a bunch of little rides. Anyway, my mother-in-law sent me a private message offering to pay so that our kids could go. At this point, I could have accepted. But I refused, because clearly we had the money; we just didn't think such an event was a good value.
I think what I'm trying to say is that, if family or friends offer to pay for things when you decline to attend because of cost, you probably shouldn't accept their generous offer. That way when you go to retire in five years, there won't be built up resentment about all the times they paid for you. I'm not saying those of you who have accepted offers in the past have done anything wrong per se, but I'm just not sure it's worth the strain it will put on your relationship.
And I guess we just all have to accept that we will be considered non-joiners or stick-in-the-mud because of our desire to grow our investments :).
I don't agree with the idea that I shouldn't say "I can't afford this" when I could technically spend money on it if I wanted to. What one can "afford" is their determination, not their social circle's determination. If someone thinks I am poor because I tell them I can't afford $40 admission to a local carnival or a trip to Vegas, that is their problem.
Based on our salaries, we certainly have the money for my daughter's ballet lessons, but I thought about whether we could "afford" it - can we afford to pay for these lessons when we could/should be making an extra student loan payment, IRA contribution, or saving for her future education. What one can afford is a judgment based on their circumstances and values. Also, if I rejected my mom's every offer to take us to dinner or go on vacation with them, we would never go to dinner or vacation with them, which is what my parents want us to do. So way more resentment would build up for them if we always said no.
If the couple in question was actually complaining about being poor and taking food/drink, etc without reciprocating, that's a huge issue. But not spending money and giving the impression of being poor is more about perception than actual lying.
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We recently ran into this with my in-laws, they (my husband's parents and his grownup sib) reached out talking about doing thanksgiving at some all-inclusive fancy tropical place this year. When my husband responded that doing this was not in our budget, his dad wrote back that of course they would cover our tickets. If we go on the trip and let them pay, we're moochers when they find out how much we've got in savings. If we refuse to accept their gift and don't go, we hate family (and it will be all my fault as the DIL). If we do go in the interest of family time, we're negatively affecting our ability to save. We got out of it because we have to work that week anyway, but sometimes there's not an easy way to respond, especially with family.
Does anyone have a good method of dealing with this?
Oh my gosh, this is exactly what we deal with, too, with my large extended family. An expensive family vacation every year. If we don't go, we don't value family. If we do go, then we don't respect ourselves. And if we let them pay, then we're moochers. Any recommendations?
Go every once in a while, and when you refuse, offer to host a more modest gathering?
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I think the lesson here is to be honest when you don't want to do things, rather than saying you can't afford something. Our close group of friends goes to Vegas almost every year, and we have never gone. Now I wonder if they think we are cheap. I'm almost positive they don't think that we can't afford the trip, but who knows. I'm known as a pretty big stick-in-the-mud, so they might just think my lameness has also rubbed off on my husband and that's why we don't go.
Perhaps we should say things like, "I think insert random event or trip is too expensive or not in my budget at the moment", rather than saying we can't afford it. I could see how the latter could be misconstrued.
There was once that I complained on Facebook about how much a local children's fair cost. It was through a local city, and I believe it cost $20 a person for unlimited rides. And these weren't Six Flags rides - more like lame carnival rides. I wasn't about to spend $40 for my 5 and 3 year olds (at the time) to ride a bunch of little rides. Anyway, my mother-in-law sent me a private message offering to pay so that our kids could go. At this point, I could have accepted. But I refused, because clearly we had the money; we just didn't think such an event was a good value.
I think what I'm trying to say is that, if family or friends offer to pay for things when you decline to attend because of cost, you probably shouldn't accept their generous offer. That way when you go to retire in five years, there won't be built up resentment about all the times they paid for you. I'm not saying those of you who have accepted offers in the past have done anything wrong per se, but I'm just not sure it's worth the strain it will put on your relationship.
And I guess we just all have to accept that we will be considered non-joiners or stick-in-the-mud because of our desire to grow our investments :).
Yep, being happily the "odd duck" isn't that bad, much better than being seen as mooching or cheap. I agree about turning down offers of payment when you choose not to "afford" something. And letting people know you choose not to spend the money instead of "can't afford" it also sends the right message. We don't want people thinking we are "losing out" by not spending money, we are winning by not spending the money.
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Oh my gosh, this is exactly what we deal with, too, with my large extended family. An expensive family vacation every year. If we don't go, we don't value family. If we do go, then we don't respect ourselves. And if we let them pay, then we're moochers. Any recommendations?
My extended family does a family vacation to the Jersey shore each year. We would need plane tickets (at least $400 pp), a condo for the week (expensive), plus food.
We go every 5 years. We are the only branch of the family that doesn't attend each year.
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The problem, as other have tried to point out, is that every simple attempt made to decline something ridiculous is interpreted as just not having money.
Other people interpret "that is too expensive" as "I don't have the money."
Other people interpret "that is not in my budget" as "I don't have the money."
Other people interpret "we can't afford that" as "I don't have the money."
Other people interpret "let's enjoy this cheaper alternative" as "I don't have the money."
Other people interpret "no, thanks" as "I don't have the money!"
So, pretty much the only this we can do, I think after reflecting upon this post, is use the yes/yes/no/yes strategy, my "go to" for declining invitations.
Say (or write) something like:
"Listen, thank you for the invitation. What you are suggesting sure sounds like fun! I wish I could go and I have enough money to cover this activity, but right now I'm trying to avoid being up to my eyeballs in debt like the average American. I need to invest that money now so I can retire comfortably/buy a house/pay for college someday/whatever. I really want to see you, but I'm going to have to pass on this particular trip/dinner/whatever as it is going to disrupt my carefully thought out savings plan. How about we do [insert cheaper but still fun activity] together?"
Remember, the pattern is yes yes no yes: Thank you, sounds fun, I'm not going, let's do something else or please remember me again next time you go.
Wow, that is a lot of work! It's much easier to do in writing, like via email, where one is not having to argue and defend one's sensible spending. But I really think that's the only way we, as a group, can avoid coming off like the couple in the OP. Some people are still going to think we're cheap douchebags for not joining in all of their spending sprees, but at at least we're being polite and making it clear where things really stand.
Good luck with it, everyone!
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Didn't read all the responses, but to as what to do it would depend on if they are real friends, or just people that show up at a lot of common events, otherwise known as aquaintances. People seem to get these two confused all the time. If they are truly friends that, aside from the poor mouthing, are decent people that you generally wouldn't mind spending time with, I would have a frank conversation with them and let them know that you enjoy their company, but the poor-talk is out of hand (they probably started using it when they actually WERE poor, and just never quit), and tell them they need to contribute/reciprocate more. If they are truly decent people, they should appreciate the feedback and try to get better. If they are merely aquaintances with no potenial for true friendship, only then cut bait.
I think a lot of relationships with good potential are lost because one side or the other doesn't have the courage to call the other out on some bothersome aspect.
I recently had a good college friend tell me he didn't like me still calling him by his college nickname (apparently my wife and I were the only ones that still did). For FIFTEEN YEARS he said nothing. He finally had enough in him one night to mention it. So what did I do? I apoligized and started using his preferred name. Problem solved! That is what adults do, they work things out. If someone is incapable of working out a fairly basic friendship issue, I don't need to be their friend, nor would I make a good friend if I couldn't change my ways, just a little bit, to make them happier.
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The problem, as other have tried to point out, is that every simple attempt made to decline something ridiculous is interpreted as just not having money.
Other people interpret "that is too expensive" as "I don't have the money."
Other people interpret "that is not in my budget" as "I don't have the money."
Other people interpret "we can't afford that" as "I don't have the money."
Other people interpret "let's enjoy this cheaper alternative" as "I don't have the money."
Other people interpret "no, thanks" as "I don't have the money!"
So, pretty much the only this we can do, I think after reflecting upon this post, is use the yes/yes/no/yes strategy, my "go to" for declining invitations.
Say (or write) something like:
"Listen, thank you for the invitation. What you are suggesting sure sounds like fun! I wish I could go and I have enough money to cover this activity, but right now I'm trying to avoid being up to my eyeballs in debt like the average American. I need to invest that money now so I can retire comfortably/buy a house/pay for college someday/whatever. I really want to see you, but I'm going to have to pass on this particular trip/dinner/whatever as it is going to disrupt my carefully thought out savings plan. How about we do [insert cheaper but still fun activity] together?"
Remember, the pattern is yes yes no yes: Thank you, sounds fun, I'm not going, let's do something else or please remember me again next time you go.
Wow, that is a lot of work! It's much easier to do in writing, like via email, where one is not having to argue and defend one's sensible spending. But I really think that's the only way we, as a group, can avoid coming off like the couple in the OP. Some people are still going to think we're cheap douchebags for not joining in all of their spending sprees, but at at least we're being polite and making it clear where things really stand.
Good luck with it, everyone!
LOVE this! For sure tucking it in my back pocket for future use!
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So I'm hearing lots of different variations of "That's not how I choose to spend my money." While that might be more honest than "I can't afford it", you now have the new problem of implicitly communicating, You spend your money in dumb ways. Now it's not a financial matter, it's an indictment of their own values which are different than mine.
I can totally see why it's so much easier to say, "We can't afford it." So much easier.
I second this. I'll try and find another solid reason to back out of family vacations and spending sprees, like a schedule conflict of some kind. Still honest, but leaves out the money part and the values comparisons.
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I did go to their house and have a talk with them. The husband is still furious at the wife. The wife was sheepish and apologetic.
I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
I truly pity them. I have no problem telling someone I don't like to go out to eat because I am a better cook than almost every restaurant I have been in. I have no problem saying we have one old car because walking and biking are good for us. But on the other hand we are extremely generous. We do a lot of charity work, have friends over for delicious dinners and so on. I pity them for not being able to free themselves up to enjoy their money. Isn't that what we are doing this for? Things like being able to enjoy life to the fullest, be charitable when appropriate, spend time with friends and family, and be good stewards of the environment, and not support the sweat shop produced junk out there?
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it.
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...Wait, they did pay for one trip. My parents paid for travel to a sibling's overseas wedding. They offered first but maybe they that was because they assumed that I (we) couldn't afford it? Hmm.
Well this one is sticky and depends entirely on family values. I'm going to assume this overseas wedding took place in the bride's country of origin. If not, it was one of these now popular destination weddings where the married couple assume all responsibility for planning MY vacation and umm, no, I don't pay for a vacation where someone else chooses the location and date. Vacation money and time off from work are incredibly important resources for me.
Anyway, assuming no destination wedding, this is a tough one. In my family no one would be ostracized or resented for not going overseas for a wedding, we just are not "wedding" people, looking at it as only one day. But I admit that attitude is unusual and most families would expect all siblings to be there. I hope that your parents paid your way simply to make it completely easy for you, and I hope they did it with some financial ease. You still had to arrange your life for this trip, and that's not insignificant, so you DID make efforts toward the wedding.
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I think we are certainly in a semantics discussion here that deviates from the OP's original example of people who were more moochers than anything.
To be clear, I don't think it's wrong to say you can't afford something and mean it in the way YOU intend it to mean and not the way the average American means it, but you have to be aware that other people will interpret your words differently. And that's fine, but I personally would like to find a way to not alienate my friends and family through this process of saving. And like dobedo says, what do you really gain if you end up with loads of money in the bank and a bunch of family and friends who resent you? Sure, you could go all scorched earth and correctly point out that they are in the wrong, but you're still out a bunch of people you previously liked.
I do, however, think it's somewhat shady to say you can't technically afford X event (because your money is going elsewhere to things you value more) and then allow someone else to pay for it. The only caveat I would give to this is perhaps with parents. That's a different story, but your friends? Heck, no. Even if they get the wrong impression, I don't think it's right to take them up on their offer like the "friends" of the OP did.
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I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it.
So, where do forgiveness and second chances have a place for you?
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I agree with lbmustache. You've also got to consider that this is someone who I assume is themselves already mustachian, commenting on these people.
So if relative to a mustachian you seem cheap then its probably going to be pretty bad.
Hahahaha! It's good to keep things in perspective. Totally agree. If a Mustachian is complaining you're cheap, then HOLY SHIT ARE YOU CHEAP!!
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I did go to their house and have a talk with them. The husband is still furious at the wife. The wife was sheepish and apologetic.
I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
I truly pity them. I have no problem telling someone I don't like to go out to eat because I am a better cook than almost every restaurant I have been in. I have no problem saying we have one old car because walking and biking are good for us. But on the other hand we are extremely generous. We do a lot of charity work, have friends over for delicious dinners and so on. I pity them for not being able to free themselves up to enjoy their money. Isn't that what we are doing this for? Things like being able to enjoy life to the fullest, be charitable when appropriate, spend time with friends and family, and be good stewards of the environment, and not support the sweat shop produced junk out there?
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it.
I love the face to face approach. That was difficult to do, and was brave. I think most people would just ignore them forever, but I always opt for the more honorable direct conversation. I also think they'll appreciate you more for that ....eventually. By the way, this applies to ALL breakups, not just moocher friends.
Also, once things cool down, and if they have seen the error in their ways....maybe give them a second chance. There must be some reason they became your friends to begin with, am I right?
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So here is my question: if you find yourself in a situation where you do not want to continue spending money, but your friend wants the good times to keep on rolling and offers to pay (I'm picturing a trip to a bar for "a drink" that turns into a few drinks), how do you appropriately respond while staying true to mustachian principles? Refuse the generosity? You can only do that so much before it becomes socially unacceptable. Accept their generosity but later find yourself resented much like the couple in the OP? How am I to know whether the generosity is from the friend's pity over my perceived poorness or genuine no-strings-attached generosity? Should you accept with subsequent thankful gestures short of one to one reciprocity? Accepting with one to one reciprocity just involves spending more money than you are comfortable with sooner or later.
Clearly the best choice is to not find yourself in the situation in the first place, but it will happen sooner or later. What then? It seems to me there is no good answer and you are bound piss someone off no matter what you do unless the giver is offering a truly no strings attached gift.
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Following this, because it gets down to the major failings of my adherence to mustachianism: when family or friends want to do things. I'm very bad at saying no, and in fact, often pay for others.
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I've had a sibling call me "cheap" because I don't own a car or house. ...And sometimes I do feel like a moocher when friends/family/coworkers offer to give me a ride somewhere because I don't have a car. (Often I enjoy the walk, but if you turn down a lift and then the person sees you at the party and knows you walked, that really makes you a jerk, right?) So how do you pay back a ride? People who do it often, I'll buy them a drink occasionally or whatever, but I'm certainly not buying a drink every time I get a lift. Most people know I'm working on FIRE and they don't criticize much.
All that said, I would never, ever accept charity by letting someone else pay for me when I have the means.
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I try to have one goal at a time that I can use as an excuse. Right now it's "I'm trying to see if I can pay off my student loans by x year so I'm putting most of my extra money to that." In the future it might be "I'm challenging myself to max out my 401k this year so my spending money is lighter than usual." Or "I'm trying to save up to replace my car without a car loan." The goal would be something that is generally true and that people can relate to. I then am not judging their choice of spending but look like I'm trying to do a trendy challenge. It also doesn't look like I don't have money, it just looks like I'm being fussy where I put it.
If someone knows my plan and says "well, it won't be the same without you there, let me buy your ticket" then I might let them depending on who it is and what it is.
Other things I do spend money on to preserve friendships and family relations. We choose to live in a low COL place that is far from my husband's family. We recognize that decision comes with the obligation to visit husband's family. Luckily they pay for pretty much everything once we are there but it still costs gas or plane tickets to get there.
I will also pay to do something that I know is very important to someone I care about - a wedding, a charity event, etc. I expect the same in return. We went to a dinner at a fancy restaurant for friend A's birthday and friend B attended. When it was friend B's birthday, and she wanted her dinner at the same place, friend A declined for money reasons. That's not cool. Don't expect people to spend a lot to celebrate your birthday but then fail to reciprocate. I also spent a lot of time and money for friend A's charity event and then she bailed at the last minute on mine. That stuff gets noticed.
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I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it.
So, where do forgiveness and second chances have a place for you?
In this case I am not sure. Perhaps time will give me better perspective.
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All that said, I would never, ever accept charity by letting someone else pay for me when I have the means.
I think this is it. If you have more means than everybody else and constantly accept charity, actually guilt others into charity, that is what I found awful.
We have had many friends through the years that have gone through rough spots. So they come over to dinner empty handed and we are happy they accepted some help. Or giving a car less coworker a ride because it is on the way. No brainier. This was totally different.
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I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it.
So, where do forgiveness and second chances have a place for you?
In this situation I'm not sure it's time (yet) for second chances. Sounds like the husband is more angry at his wife for ruining the deception than contrite or realizing the error of their behaviour. Why be friends with someone who wants your friendship on the basis of dishonesty and one-sided monetary benefit?
OP, you're a mensch for telling them in person. When the other friends treat them like they're dead they'll know why.
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Our group of friends are all in 50's-60's. We help one another with things like packing to move, decluttering, rides, pet sitting, etc but everyone reciprocates. Actually one couple did not & it grew thin so bye-bye. 1 couple is very ill so we do lots of things for them since they have no family but in return they will pay for dinner, sometimes etc. Actually they are so appreciative & generous that we have to be careful not to take advantage of them. We do these things because we love them & would hope that someone would help us if we were in that bad a situation. They can't afford to take taxi' to all their medical appointments, etc. What that couple did was unforgivable & even though I am usually pretty forgiving I wouldn't be able to get past the long term deception.
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This is a character issue, not a money issue. They basically lied, stole, and mooched off their friends in order to save a few bucks. The put possessions before people.
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Some of the stuff does not sound that bad. Driving to the airport? Watching their dog? Aren' t those things friends normally do. As far as eating/drinking goes, if that is a habit, then yeah, OK, that is not good. The rest does not sound so bad.
Driving to the airport is annoying. If you're traveling one way (driving back) or will be gone for a long time, fine. But my sister and her family, who live near us, asks this of me all the time. We live a half hour from the airport. Long-term parking is just $8 a day. They usually ask even when they're gone just 3-4 days.
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All that said, I would never, ever accept charity by letting someone else pay for me when I have the means.
I think this is it. If you have more means than everybody else and constantly accept charity, actually guilt others into charity, that is what I found awful.
We have had many friends through the years that have gone through rough spots. So they come over to dinner empty handed and we are happy they accepted some help. Or giving a car less coworker a ride because it is on the way. No brainier. This was totally different.
This is much harder, I grant you. I just remember an interview with a food bank director at a major food bank. He was asked what he thought about people using food banks who had blown all their money or who weren't fixing their problems. His answer was that he hoped that we could be kind to people who have made mistakes.
I think that I appreciate that you went to talk to these people face to face. But "I don't think I can be your friend anymore"? There is a line where your generosity stops. People who make big mistakes are on their own, apparently.
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I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it.
So, where do forgiveness and second chances have a place for you?
Hey op, it wasn't apparent to me that your friends expressed a wish to keep in your group and they will be more generous with their resources. Giving them a second chance requires that they change their behavior. I'm sure you would welcome them back if they stop being such damned mooches.
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So here is my question: if you find yourself in a situation where you do not want to continue spending money, but your friend wants the good times to keep on rolling and offers to pay (I'm picturing a trip to a bar for "a drink" that turns into a few drinks), how do you appropriately respond while staying true to mustachian principles? Refuse the generosity? You can only do that so much before it becomes socially unacceptable. Accept their generosity but later find yourself resented much like the couple in the OP? How am I to know whether the generosity is from the friend's pity over my perceived poorness or genuine no-strings-attached generosity? Should you accept with subsequent thankful gestures short of one to one reciprocity? Accepting with one to one reciprocity just involves spending more money than you are comfortable with sooner or later.
Clearly the best choice is to not find yourself in the situation in the first place, but it will happen sooner or later. What then? It seems to me there is no good answer and you are bound piss someone off no matter what you do unless the giver is offering a truly no strings attached gift.
It's easy to go to a bar, buy one drink, and nurse it for two hours. Another approach is to host similar activity at your house. Alcohol is not cheap if you really don't drink and drinking is important to your friends it might be timemtomfind new friends.
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I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it.
So, where do forgiveness and second chances have a place for you?
That's what I was thinking. If they're really a long time friend, you'll find a way to get past it. To throw away a friendship like that seems odd to me.
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Some of the stuff does not sound that bad. Driving to the airport? Watching their dog? Aren' t those things friends normally do. As far as eating/drinking goes, if that is a habit, then yeah, OK, that is not good. The rest does not sound so bad.
Driving to the airport is annoying. If you're traveling one way (driving back) or will be gone for a long time, fine. But my sister and her family, who live near us, asks this of me all the time. We live a half hour from the airport. Long-term parking is just $8 a day. They usually ask even when they're gone just 3-4 days.
Oh you would be surprised at the number of people in our social circle who cannot conceive of taking metro link train straight to the airport. When I was working I didn't want to take time out of my workday to take DH to the airport, but I offered to drop,him at metro link, 3 minutes from our house and on my direct drive to work. He was ok with that. But Dear
God you would think I was asking him to turn into a Poor Person. Not one but two friends absolutely insisted that he could NOT do that. Each of them provided transportation to and from the airport.
Last year I took a little retreat vacation to a small historic town on Amtrack. I can easily walk to Amtrak in 10 minutes. I was looking forward to a European style vacation taking the train. The same group and then 2 more, were puzzled and then disbelieving of my protests turning down their offers to drive me to the Amtrak station.
Americans and their damned cars.
T
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Thanks for all the thoughtful responses.
I think what it comes down to is the age old question. What is cheap and what is frugal.
Certainly making the best of your available money is frugal. Most mustacian have figured out learning to cook, limiting automobile use and not buying things you don't really really need are the path to FI. Many Here don't have cable, fancy phones, fancy cars or eat out much.
However, asking someone else to subsidize your life so you can sit on a pile of money, not so much. Especially when our circle does tons for charity. These were deceivers for sure.
Again, I really feel bad for them. To have so much wealth (by the way, when you look at stastistics and realize they are in the top few percentages in the world) and not be able to enjoy and share it...tragic.
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Potterquilter, it was nice of you to go speak to them in person. I'm curious as to their response. Did they offer any explanations? Did they make any promises to change?
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I did go to their house and have a talk with them. The husband is still furious at the wife. The wife was sheepish and apologetic.
I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
I truly pity them. I have no problem telling someone I don't like to go out to eat because I am a better cook than almost every restaurant I have been in. I have no problem saying we have one old car because walking and biking are good for us. But on the other hand we are extremely generous. We do a lot of charity work, have friends over for delicious dinners and so on. I pity them for not being able to free themselves up to enjoy their money. Isn't that what we are doing this for? Things like being able to enjoy life to the fullest, be charitable when appropriate, spend time with friends and family, and be good stewards of the environment, and not support the sweat shop produced junk out there?
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it.
I think it was very brave of you to be so direct and honest. Way to draw functional boundaries like a boss.
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Some of the stuff does not sound that bad. Driving to the airport? Watching their dog? Aren' t those things friends normally do. As far as eating/drinking goes, if that is a habit, then yeah, OK, that is not good. The rest does not sound so bad.
Seriously, mooching food and drink isn't nice- but these other things. These are the things friends do!
What is really considered mooching? I've so often been to events where the host complains that there is too much food, that i don't even think about eating if it's out for all to partake in....
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Not that this is relevant, but I'm incredibly curious how the tipsy wife ended up divulging this information. What was her wording or the prompt that led her to drop this info on you all? Incredibly cheap mooch or not, it's such a weird thing to state your net worth at a dinner party. Please tell me how this happened!
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Credaholic, it came up because one couple were saying they thought they were going to downsize their house. The kids had left the nest, they were planning to retire at the end of the year (mid fifties) and if they could downsize they thought they would be able to free up some more travel money once everything was said and done. Someone else said something about those goofy articles saying you need five million to retire when she piped up with her relevation.
And TJ, it isn't mooching when long time friends sometimes borrow stuff or at a friends house and have beer when they did not bring any. When there is a long time pattern of always showing up empty handed, borrowing a truck and not filling it back up with gas, when everyone is raising kids, trying to save for retirement and in one case supporting a parent. All the while they said how poor they were while sitting on a big pile of cash.
And through the years many of us have had help from family or friends, maybe not totally being able to reciprocate. That is the way life goes. Give and take as you are able, not take and hoard selfishly.
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And TJ, it isn't mooching when long time friends sometimes borrow stuff or at a friends house and have beer when they did not bring any. When there is a long time pattern of always showing up empty handed, borrowing a truck and not filling it back up with gas, when everyone is raising kids, trying to save for retirement and in one case supporting a parent. All the while they said how poor they were while sitting on a big pile of cash.
Maybe it is the age group you are in, but my friends are raising kids and trying to save for retirement (mid-30s) and I would think nothing of someone borrowing something or having a beer when they come over. I wouldn't think twice of someone coming over empty handed if I invited them to my house. Borrowing a vehicle on a not infrequent basis would be different and adding gas to the tank would be expected probably.
My issue would be if they actually stated to me that they were "poor" if they were not. It's dishonest and offensive to the actual poor. But don't waste your time pitying them for not enjoying their money the way that you think they should be because that's really none of your business.
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And TJ, it isn't mooching when long time friends sometimes borrow stuff or at a friends house and have beer when they did not bring any. When there is a long time pattern of always showing up empty handed, borrowing a truck and not filling it back up with gas, when everyone is raising kids, trying to save for retirement and in one case supporting a parent. All the while they said how poor they were while sitting on a big pile of cash.
Are these the only two infractions? Because you've mentioned them twice already. I guess I just had this image that you all were spotting them money for dinner out or other actions. Did they show up empty handed to a pot luck or to dinner at someone else's house? These are two different things. The former is worse than the latter. I don't bring something every time I am invited to someone's house for dinner. How often did this occur? Every week? Every month? Every year? I'm sorry if it sounds like we are putting you under a microscope unfairly. I'm just trying to understand, because cutting someone off after that long of a friendship is a big deal. i just assumed it was over some pretty big infractions.
I still think they were wrong for saying they were poor when clearly they weren't, but I wouldn't cut someone off for not filling my car back up with gas after using it. I would probably have just stopped lending them my car at some point, even if I thought they were poor. Having said that, I understand distancing yourself from friends who mooch even in subtle ways. Sometimes it's the accumulation of small annoyances that leads to it. I had some friends who always paid too little when we went out. For instance, one time one of them ordered a meal, an appetizer, and a drink. She left early and later we found out she had only left $10 for her share! We all had to pay the difference. We would caravan places all the time, and she never drove, because her car was full of shit or some other stupid reason. It just got to be too much, so I eventually distanced myself. I imagine for you it was always annoying over the years, and then the last straw was finding out their net worth.
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The couples response of sheepishness and embarrassment sounds most incriminating. If they were oblivious to taking advantage of the friendships they would not have responding so guiltily!
I have worried about being that friend! I try hard not to talk about money, but it seems like commiserating about being broke is an expectation in friendship.
I've made it a point to (almost always) bring food to share. We usually gather at houses. Other people bring booze. I bring homemade food. Many of the others don't cook, So they seem to enjoy it. While they all know I'm a tightwad I think I've avoided mooching. When this all started I lived in a dry town, they lived in a wet town, we met at a friend's half way in between. The set up worked to my advantage.
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The blue blood half of my family taught me that it is rude to show up at a social event with food or wine; it implies somehow that the host can't adequately provide. I belonged to two bridge groups for years who followed this protocol and made a point of informing new players who didn't know this up front that no one was to ever bring anything but their good cheer; the host provides everything else. A thank you and possibly future invite for the host to another event that you organize are the most expected. Therefore my dad usually shows up empty handed unless the invitation clearly indicates that it is a pot luck or BYOB; it's just the way he was raised. You might think he is wrong or being a cheapskate, but his grandmother (RIP) would sternly correct you.
OTOH, The poor half of my family wouldn't be caught dead showing up to an event at someone else's house without food or drink. This seems to now be the norm for lower, middle, and upper middle-class America. My mom complains about it because she doesn't want to bring booze so she feels she can't go anywhere without making something, and she grows weary of it. Every invitation accepted actually means more work in the kitchen for her.
Also "bring something to every event" is not the norm in some cultures. For example, I clearly offended my ex's boss's wife (they were from India) by showing up with wine at a dinner they were hosting. She tried to hide it, but I caught the glimpse of distaste on her face when she saw that I was holding a bottle. She had plenty of her own wine to serve and mine was taken as a sign that she didn't have enough for us.
Different upbringings, different cultures, different expectations.
I guarantee you that some people are going to be pissed at me when I retire early no matter how generous I am right now with my time, beer, and baked goods. Because if one is sitting on a "big pile of money," one should have chipped in more all along, right? Particularly when someone has asked for your money and you have declined (which I have done twice now with the worst of spendthrift family members), the revelation that you had money all along is going to spark ire.
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Lots of great points about the nuances involved in social outings and friendship, along with how frugality and cheapness get interpreted by others.
In the case presented by the OP, it seems to me like greed is driving the bus for these two. The judgment (if only implicit) being that my interests in accumulating wealth and an easier life trump norms of friendship, fairness, honesty, and social etiquette (and thus your interests). And I agree that the guilty and angry response to being outed is a pretty good piece of evidence that they have done wrong.
I have run into such people and they really amaze me, even when sympathetically assessing all the complexities others have pointed out. While such self-interested double standards are pretty common in adolescence and even early adult-hood, many get past that stage of moral development. Unfortunately, many also do not.
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I agree with Zamboni and have observed the same dichotomy of expectations. It is challenging to navigate as a young adult when you associate with people from each upbringing-- some places the host provides, in others everyone is expected to contribute.
I find the best way to navigate it is to clearly communicate. If you are hosting, tell your guests what, if anything to bring. A simple "BYOB" in the invitation communication (whether formal or informal) can prevent miscommunication and confusion. Conversely, when you are invited and the host does not specify what, if anything, to bring, simply asking "what can I bring?" Signals a desire to contribute your fair share and gives the host an opportunity to decline if the host is providing everything.
I also see generational differences. Friends our age are more likely to take they BYOB or bring a side/dessert approach, whereas when we visit friends who are my parents' age, they are more likely to insist we bring only ourselves. When we host, we take different approaches depending on the formality of the get together. If the party is more formal, then we are more likely to provide everything. In that instance it seems more a reflection of different stations in life than different social norms. If I'm hosting a get together with closer friends, I might say "I'll provide crappy beer. You can bring whatever you want if you want something else."
Just communicating rather than trying to read unspoken expectations seems to avoid big issues. Perhaps some people see it as a faux pas to ask, but I'd rather commit that faux pas than unwittingly fail to contribute where expected.
I find it easier to navigate events hosted at someone's home than events held at a restaurant. Anybody have insights on how to handle restaurant get togethers (other than avoiding them altogether)?
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I also find that if I miss the mark on my expected contribution, a little self deprication goes a long way. Saying something like, "Oh, I guess I'm that guy that brought Two Buck Chuck for himself when everyone else brought good wine to share. Missed that memo." will show that you are are aware you missed the mark and didn't intend to do so. I've never had anyone respond to such a gesture with anything other than graciousness.
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Calling them out really won't make any difference and certainly won't change whats already been done. The hidden truths and the numerous occasions where your 'poor me' friends took advantage of you. IMO let it go because they sound like fair weather friends. Could be wrong, but based on your description they care a great deal about what you can do for them, more than your shared friendship and time together. To me, their behavior is the exact opposite of what I consider a genuine friend.
As such, cut them out of your life like a surgeon removes cancer, then move on. Life is too short to involve yourself with toxic people. Good luck!
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I did go to their house and have a talk with them. The husband is still furious at the wife. The wife was sheepish and apologetic.
I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
I truly pity them. I have no problem telling someone I don't like to go out to eat because I am a better cook than almost every restaurant I have been in. I have no problem saying we have one old car because walking and biking are good for us. But on the other hand we are extremely generous. We do a lot of charity work, have friends over for delicious dinners and so on. I pity them for not being able to free themselves up to enjoy their money. Isn't that what we are doing this for? Things like being able to enjoy life to the fullest, be charitable when appropriate, spend time with friends and family, and be good stewards of the environment, and not support the sweat shop produced junk out there?
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it. (http://I did go to their house and have a talk with them. The husband is still furious at the wife. The wife was sheepish and apologetic.
I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
I truly pity them. I have no problem telling someone I don't like to go out to eat because I am a better cook than almost every restaurant I have been in. I have no problem saying we have one old car because walking and biking are good for us. But on the other hand we are extremely generous. We do a lot of charity work, have friends over for delicious dinners and so on. I pity them for not being able to free themselves up to enjoy their money. Isn't that what we are doing this for? Things like being able to enjoy life to the fullest, be charitable when appropriate, spend time with friends and family, and be good stewards of the environment, and not support the sweat shop produced junk out there?
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it.)
You handled this very well. Its hard to do this face to face. True friends both give and take. Not always mooch mooch mooch mooch. I help here, you help there. Give them a chance in the future if they do change, but for your sake stay away for a while and let them cool down and see what shakes out.
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What a timely thread...
My sibling and I just found out that our other sibling has plenty of resources but for years has been telling a "I don't have the money" story to us and our parents. As a generous and close (we thought!) family, we had all pitched in to be sure that the "poor" sibling could join family vacations (money for airfare, meals/hotels as needed, etc.). Now we find out (through our sibling's slip of the tongue) that there has always been plenty of money for vacations, shiny new toys, etc. All attempts to address (one on one, in various formats) the lack of honesty and taking money have been meet with refusal to discuss.
The lying and, now, the refusal to take responsibility is what hurts most. The good news is that the money hasn't been going to feed an addiction to alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc. From what we can tell, it's about not being able to be honest about a preference to spend resources on travel/toys rather than family visits. If it wasn't my sibling, I'd be very likely to cut the connection. Lying and refusal to take responsibility for one's actions are hard issues to resolve. I'm fine with people making their choices - just be honest that it's a choice (vs. saying that you're too poor when it's really a matter of you preferring to use your money in a different way).
Much more difficult and more painful than my situation. Hang in there.
Thank you Potterquilter. Like you, it's painful to discover you've been lied to, but also freeing since now I can make better choices about where I put my hard-earned money. I appreciate you starting this thread because it occurs to me that people may think once someone is FIRE (I don't plan tell everyone, but some may know) then we must be rich can serve as their personal bank.
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I did go to their house and have a talk with them. The husband is still furious at the wife. The wife was sheepish and apologetic.
I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
I truly pity them. I have no problem telling someone I don't like to go out to eat because I am a better cook than almost every restaurant I have been in. I have no problem saying we have one old car because walking and biking are good for us. But on the other hand we are extremely generous. We do a lot of charity work, have friends over for delicious dinners and so on. I pity them for not being able to free themselves up to enjoy their money. Isn't that what we are doing this for? Things like being able to enjoy life to the fullest, be charitable when appropriate, spend time with friends and family, and be good stewards of the environment, and not support the sweat shop produced junk out there?
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it.
I think it was very brave of you to be so direct and honest. Way to draw functional boundaries like a boss.
+1!
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My plan going forward is to just overwhelm my family and friends with invitations to low-cost activities, like food/drink at my house, or a day at the park/beach with food/drink. That way, at least they'll see that I WANT to spend time with them. And when I go their place, I'm going to make it a point to always bring a bottle of my Two Buck Chuck. That way they will always see that I'm bringing something, and not mooching.
This doesn't come naturally to me because I'm not much of an event organizer... but if it means being able to keep my friends post-FI, I think it's worth it.
This is kind of how we operate most of the time. It helps that right now a lot of our friends (like us) have small kids and aren't inclined to go out much anyway. "It's a pain to take the kids to a restaurant, let's eat at home! We'll cook/bring food and cook it at your place" is an offer that doesn't get refused much.
As for the doing favors for friends, I think friends do each other favors and there's some expectation of reciprocity. We do little things for friends and they do little things for us. We have certainly asked friends to help with bigger things (moving, large yard projects) and in exchange we feed them. We have told them that on another occasion we would help them. I'm happy to do favors for friends but if they are really bad at reciprocating typically I stop... we were "trading" babysitting with a friend for a while and I had not expected a 50-50 trade of hours but I did want *some* kind of reciprocity. After we had watched her kids a bunch of times and yet she kept declining every time we asked her to watch ours without suggesting alternate dates and giving excuses about how busy, stressed, etc. she is, we backed out of the arrangement.
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Just curious how they got $2 mill and nobody noticed…did one of them have a really good paying job if so then it would seem obvious they were lying when they said they were poor…unless they lied about what one of them was doing ha
Sound like terrible friends.
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The blue blood half of my family taught me that it is rude to show up at a social event with food or wine; it implies somehow that the host can't adequately provide. I belonged to two bridge groups for years who followed this protocol and made a point of informing new players who didn't know this up front that no one was to ever bring anything but their good cheer; the host provides everything else. A thank you and possibly future invite for the host to another event that you organize are the most expected. Therefore my dad usually shows up empty handed unless the invitation clearly indicates that it is a pot luck or BYOB; it's just the way he was raised. You might think he is wrong or being a cheapskate, but his grandmother (RIP) would sternly correct you.
OTOH, The poor half of my family wouldn't be caught dead showing up to an event at someone else's house without food or drink. This seems to now be the norm for lower, middle, and upper middle-class America. My mom complains about it because she doesn't want to bring booze so she feels she can't go anywhere without making something, and she grows weary of it. Every invitation accepted actually means more work in the kitchen for her.
Also "bring something to every event" is not the norm in some cultures. For example, I clearly offended my ex's boss's wife (they were from India) by showing up with wine at a dinner they were hosting. She tried to hide it, but I caught the glimpse of distaste on her face when she saw that I was holding a bottle. She had plenty of her own wine to serve and mine was taken as a sign that she didn't have enough for us.
Different upbringings, different cultures, different expectations.
I guarantee you that some people are going to be pissed at me when I retire early no matter how generous I am right now with my time, beer, and baked goods. Because if one is sitting on a "big pile of money," one should have chipped in more all along, right? Particularly when someone has asked for your money and you have declined (which I have done twice now with the worst of spendthrift family members), the revelation that you had money all along is going to spark ire.
This is actually why something such as flowers is technically the appropriate gift, which avoids giving the impression you are suggesting the host isn't appropriately providing. (And I read for a true etiquette guru, you actually send it in advance the day of the event, so the host does not need to arrange it while greeting guests.) Other non-event food/drink items are also acceptable too.
My plan going forward is to just overwhelm my family and friends with invitations to low-cost activities, like food/drink at my house, or a day at the park/beach with food/drink. That way, at least they'll see that I WANT to spend time with them. And when I go their place, I'm going to make it a point to always bring a bottle of my Two Buck Chuck. That way they will always see that I'm bringing something, and not mooching.
This doesn't come naturally to me because I'm not much of an event organizer... but if it means being able to keep my friends post-FI, I think it's worth it.
This is kind of how we operate most of the time. It helps that right now a lot of our friends (like us) have small kids and aren't inclined to go out much anyway. "It's a pain to take the kids to a restaurant, let's eat at home! We'll cook/bring food and cook it at your place" is an offer that doesn't get refused much.
As for the doing favors for friends, I think friends do each other favors and there's some expectation of reciprocity. We do little things for friends and they do little things for us. We have certainly asked friends to help with bigger things (moving, large yard projects) and in exchange we feed them. We have told them that on another occasion we would help them. I'm happy to do favors for friends but if they are really bad at reciprocating typically I stop... we were "trading" babysitting with a friend for a while and I had not expected a 50-50 trade of hours but I did want *some* kind of reciprocity. After we had watched her kids a bunch of times and yet she kept declining every time we asked her to watch ours without suggesting alternate dates and giving excuses about how busy, stressed, etc. she is, we backed out of the arrangement.
My plan going forward is to just overwhelm my family and friends with invitations to low-cost activities, like food/drink at my house, or a day at the park/beach with food/drink. That way, at least they'll see that I WANT to spend time with them. And when I go their place, I'm going to make it a point to always bring a bottle of my Two Buck Chuck. That way they will always see that I'm bringing something, and not mooching.
This doesn't come naturally to me because I'm not much of an event organizer... but if it means being able to keep my friends post-FI, I think it's worth it.
This is kind of how we operate most of the time. It helps that right now a lot of our friends (like us) have small kids and aren't inclined to go out much anyway. "It's a pain to take the kids to a restaurant, let's eat at home! We'll cook/bring food and cook it at your place" is an offer that doesn't get refused much.
As for the doing favors for friends, I think friends do each other favors and there's some expectation of reciprocity. We do little things for friends and they do little things for us. We have certainly asked friends to help with bigger things (moving, large yard projects) and in exchange we feed them. We have told them that on another occasion we would help them. I'm happy to do favors for friends but if they are really bad at reciprocating typically I stop... we were "trading" babysitting with a friend for a while and I had not expected a 50-50 trade of hours but I did want *some* kind of reciprocity. After we had watched her kids a bunch of times and yet she kept declining every time we asked her to watch ours without suggesting alternate dates and giving excuses about how busy, stressed, etc. she is, we backed out of the arrangement.
Yep, I had a couple keep asking me to babysit. I got tired of doing it (plus for free - and I have no kids for them to reciprocate) that I just decided I would always be "busy".
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Just curious how they got $2 mill and nobody noticed…did one of them have a really good paying job if so then it would seem obvious they were lying when they said they were poor…unless they lied about what one of them was doing ha
Sound like terrible friends.
He worked normally but she worked under the table as a babysitter for teachers kids, but you really don't know exactly how much people make unless it is a job like a teacher where salary scales are posted. He was an only child so an inheritance could have kicked in.
This whole discussion has been fascinating. I am going to start a thread on cheap vs. frugal in general.
By the way, she called and we had a nice talk. Time will tell. I am back home now so won't be seeing them in person, so we will see
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OP here. I loved all the responses. I did not make some things really clear. These are the type of people who borrow a truck to run to pick something up and return it with a quarter tank of gas missing. They ask for a ride to and from the airport but always seem to be busy when they are asked. Constantly talk about how poor they are.
There is a huge difference between frugal and cheap. Frugal people make concious decisions about how much money they spend and the value of what they are spending it on. They have reciprocal relationships. You lend me your great mulch carrying wheelbarrow and pitchfork, I help you out when you need someone to walk the dog when you will be home really late. If I need a ride to the airport, I give you gas money. It is not about making things equal, but being reciprocal.
I am super frugal, but also super generous. If someone brings me a basket of tomatoes from their garden, I make extra soup and drop it off in thanks. We have one car, if I got stuck somewhere I would call a taxi, or if I called a friend would reciprocate by doing something nice in return.
I think we all gave them a lot of leeway through the years because they played the poor card.
I think I am going to sit back and watch how it plays out. Actually I feel bad for them. Multi millionaires bitching about how poor they are. Think of the good use they could make of that money while still having a fabulous life.
If you and your (other) friends cut them out without doing saying anything to them, then they wont learn anything. This is fine if you really don't want to be friends with them anymore. However, if you have any interest in being friends with them, or even giving them the chance to change, then the entire group needs to confront them.
I'm in the camp of confronting them. Make sure it is explicit, otherwise they'll try to turn it around on you guys, accuse you of leeching money off of them or somethign ridiculous. If it's easier, send a group email rather than in person. A little passive aggressive, but gives more time for people to think out their responses rather than responding with spontaneous rage.
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I did go to their house and have a talk with them. The husband is still furious at the wife. The wife was sheepish and apologetic.
I told them that I never realized how different our values were. I feel so strongly that being FI means you can choose how to spend your money, but I was not at all in alignment with contributing less than I received from friends and did not think I could continue to be friends with them. The wife cried. I wished them the best and said I hoped they could find some happiness and left.
I truly pity them. I have no problem telling someone I don't like to go out to eat because I am a better cook than almost every restaurant I have been in. I have no problem saying we have one old car because walking and biking are good for us. But on the other hand we are extremely generous. We do a lot of charity work, have friends over for delicious dinners and so on. I pity them for not being able to free themselves up to enjoy their money. Isn't that what we are doing this for? Things like being able to enjoy life to the fullest, be charitable when appropriate, spend time with friends and family, and be good stewards of the environment, and not support the sweat shop produced junk out there?
Quality of life. however you define it you can't beat it.
Awesome that you confronted them.
$2mil is a sooo much money; on the interest for that they could EASILY be paying their own way on things.
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I try to have one goal at a time that I can use as an excuse. Right now it's "I'm trying to see if I can pay off my student loans by x year so I'm putting most of my extra money to that." In the future it might be "I'm challenging myself to max out my 401k this year so my spending money is lighter than usual." Or "I'm trying to save up to replace my car without a car loan." The goal would be something that is generally true and that people can relate to. I then am not judging their choice of spending but look like I'm trying to do a trendy challenge. It also doesn't look like I don't have money, it just looks like I'm being fussy where I put it.
That's brilliant and I'm totally going to use that idea going forward!
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You don't have to directly confront them, but you can have this discussion:
"You're at the point where you are guaranteed to not die broke - take care of the people around you"
Tell him that you'll be their friend no matter what and its cool to be frugal, but think about how actions impact the people around you.
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"You're at the point where you are guaranteed to not die broke - take care of the people around you"
What does this mean? Unless you are going to die broke, you have to take care of people in your life? That's insane.
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A few months ago, one of my friends got a cab from the airport and complications that were mostly outside of his control turned a $20 cab ride into a $100 expense. Frankly, I was slightly offended that he took a cab in the first place: as a friend who hadn't seen him in a month, I would have been delighted to pick him up!
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I would never ask a friend, I would feel like that is a burden, and I would also never expect to be asked.
I always book shared shuttles unless a family member specifically offers before i have the chance to book it.
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I've noticed certain people just don't have what I call "generosity of spirit." I avoid being friends with those people.
"Generosity of spirit" isn't a dollar amount or a tit-for-tat accounting; it's an attitude.
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Again, to me it comes down to communication. I would happily give a ride to a friend if I am able and doing so would not be a great imposition. Conversely, I will politely decline the request if it would be too inconvenient. Whenever I ask someone else for a favor, I try to empower them to refuse my request if it is inconvenient. Just because someone asks doesn't mean the person asked is obligated to comply. You can always decline, whether or not you have an "excuse."
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The thought that keeps running through my head reading this thread is that you really are not obligated to provide any reason when declining an invitation. I can see perhaps this would waiver when dealing with family, but as I said in another post here, an invitation is not a summons: you are free to decline for your own reasons and leave it at that.
I'd recommend something along the lines of "Thank you so much for the invitation. We can't make it this time but look forward to spending time with you soon." Full stop. End of story. Stop talking and fight the urge to justify yourself. You are an adult, you are in control of your money, you do not need to provide any more explanation. If they press, you can add in something like "Thank you but we will not be available".
I like the idea someone else mentioned of turning around and inviting them to something else cheaper in the near future so you really do seem like you want to spend time with the invitee (unless that is not true!). They are in turn, free to accept or decline as they see fit. No need for anyone to get judge-y about others' values.
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Just curious how they got $2 mill and nobody noticed…did one of them have a really good paying job if so then it would seem obvious they were lying when they said they were poor…unless they lied about what one of them was doing ha
Sound like terrible friends.
He worked normally but she worked under the table as a babysitter for teachers kids, but you really don't know exactly how much people make unless it is a job like a teacher where salary scales are posted. He was an only child so an inheritance could have kicked in.
This whole discussion has been fascinating. I am going to start a thread on cheap vs. frugal in general.
By the way, she called and we had a nice talk. Time will tell. I am back home now so won't be seeing them in person, so we will see
I'm glad to hear this. I'd actually wondered, given her disclosure and seeming to be sorry for the deception and his over-the-top anger, just how controlling he is in their relationship.
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Just curious how they got $2 mill and nobody noticed…did one of them have a really good paying job if so then it would seem obvious they were lying when they said they were poor…unless they lied about what one of them was doing ha
Sound like terrible friends.
He worked normally but she worked under the table as a babysitter for teachers kids, but you really don't know exactly how much people make unless it is a job like a teacher where salary scales are posted. He was an only child so an inheritance could have kicked in.
This whole discussion has been fascinating. I am going to start a thread on cheap vs. frugal in general.
By the way, she called and we had a nice talk. Time will tell. I am back home now so won't be seeing them in person, so we will see
I'm glad to hear this. I'd actually wondered, given her disclosure and seeming to be sorry for the deception and his over-the-top anger, just how controlling he is in their relationship.
+1. One has remorse, the other one doesn't.
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I've noticed certain people just don't have what I call "generosity of spirit." I avoid being friends with those people.
"Generosity of spirit" isn't a dollar amount or a tit-for-tat accounting; it's an attitude.
I am SO borrowing that phrase. DH and I have a pair of friends who have sailed past "frugal" and far into "cheap." They don't eat others' "nice" stuff when they bring stuff of questionable quality to a gathering; they are consistent in their lifestyle, but they've also got some social adjustment issues. Part of the problem is that they are oblivious to certain mores. Can't claim "cultural differences," they are the same background as most of the people in our group. Fine, whatever. Eat dinner before visiting, take tiny bit of processed mystery meat set out to be polite. They make similar money to others in our social circle, neither have student loans, etc. They do well. They're just...cheap. And it takes a LOT for me or DH to call someone cheap.
Except they have asked favors before, and never return them. We've helped them *move.* I won't disclose what their idea of "reciprocation" was, in case they hang out on this forum as well! DH and I have decided that we'll hang out with them within a certain scope, but "helping out" any farther is off the table.
The phrase above describes the mindset perfectly. Thank you for that.
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The thought that keeps running through my head reading this thread is that you really are not obligated to provide any reason when declining an invitation. I can see perhaps this would waiver when dealing with family, but as I said in another post here, an invitation is not a summons: you are free to decline for your own reasons and leave it at that.
I'd recommend something along the lines of "Thank you so much for the invitation. We can't make it this time but look forward to spending time with you soon." Full stop. End of story. Stop talking and fight the urge to justify yourself. You are an adult, you are in control of your money, you do not need to provide any more explanation. If they press, you can add in something like "Thank you but we will not be available".
I like the idea someone else mentioned of turning around and inviting them to something else cheaper in the near future so you really do seem like you want to spend time with the invitee (unless that is not true!). They are in turn, free to accept or decline as they see fit. No need for anyone to get judge-y about others' values.
Exactly this. The trouble starts when you start trying to come up with excuses, especially when those excuses are based on money.
This thread makes me appreciate my friends and family in a whole new way.
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I've noticed certain people just don't have what I call "generosity of spirit." I avoid being friends with those people.
"Generosity of spirit" isn't a dollar amount or a tit-for-tat accounting; it's an attitude.
Yes, this is it. what got everyone so angry and betrayed was the fact that we are a pretty mustacian group. My friends try to live below their means, try not to waste money and so on. But we are also generous.
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I've noticed certain people just don't have what I call "generosity of spirit." I avoid being friends with those people.
"Generosity of spirit" isn't a dollar amount or a tit-for-tat accounting; it's an attitude.
I use this phrase a lot, too. Some people would just rather take than give, and I don't have time for people like that anymore. Relationships should be balanced and that's not always about money. It's about give and take, having each other's back, etc.
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I've noticed certain people just don't have what I call "generosity of spirit." I avoid being friends with those people.
"Generosity of spirit" isn't a dollar amount or a tit-for-tat accounting; it's an attitude.
Yes, this is it. what got everyone so angry and betrayed was the fact that we are a pretty mustacian group. My friends try to live below their means, try not to waste money and so on. But we are also generous.
Just like happiness is not about or created by having money or things, neither is generosity. No personal relationships are really about money or things ..... Those are just tools, or symptoms.
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I've noticed certain people just don't have what I call "generosity of spirit." I avoid being friends with those people.
"Generosity of spirit" isn't a dollar amount or a tit-for-tat accounting; it's an attitude.
I use this phrase a lot, too. Some people would just rather take than give, and I don't have time for people like that anymore. Relationships should be balanced and that's not always about money. It's about give and take, having each other's back, etc.
Well said. I have trouble with "takers" in a friendship. Balance is the key.
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Great post OP!. Its good to see someone with the stones to confront people.
The husbands anger is driven by the fact that his long con has been ruined.
Part of being an adult with different kinds of friends is understanding different peoples circumstances. Some people are just oblivious and don't think before they make offers. You might risk offense by exclusion, but you also risk offense by offering something that you should know the person cannot afford to do. My good friend is a divorced friend with 5 children can't do what my other friend with a "time piece" buying habit can do. I know this and account for it BEFORE I try and make plans.
Some people are so cheap that they don't care if they are others turned off by the habits or lack lack of social graces they exhibit.
As for friends and favors, to me that is a personal issue. I'll be honest, I am keeping track. "Can I get a ride to the airport?" is really asking for 1-3 hours of my time depending time of day and 1/4 of a tank of gas. The private airport service is $45. The light rail is $3 but takes 4X as long with no traffic. So if I give you a ride to the airport, I want a ride in exchange. I will often check on my friends cat when they are away and get some Chinese food in return. Its a good deal. :) I have a friend who will help anyone anytime, yet he will never ask for anything, so I never ask him for anything.
And my Mom taught me to never go to someones house with cake!!!