"I can; therefore I must." When do you pay someoene else to do something?

[Syonyk]

Facepunch away, I'm considering paying someone to install a heat pump hot water heater... even though I could probably do the work myself with only a minimal chance of no hot water grade downtime from either technical issues with the install or having an irritated inspector...

=========

But it raised the question, thinking through it: At what point does it make sense to pay someone to do something you probably could do yourself, when that cost is at least somewhat non-trivial?  And I realized I have no idea at all, because I've never had the option to deal with this sort of thing until recently.

For most of my life, it's been a simple question.  If I can do it, I must, because I only had the spare funds to pay someone else if it was something I literally couldn't do (or couldn't reasonably do without high risk of failing badly).  I'll let someone else do a differential, but... otherwise, I mostly do stuff.

Now, though, I'm at a rather different point - good savings rate, desires far lower than my earnings, family... etc.  And I'll be honest, I'm sometimes tired of DIYing all the things.  I've been spending most of my free time this year working on a DIY solar project that's massive, but the "I had no idea this would take so long..." steps are adding up and I'm tired of it.  I'd like to spend a bit more time with the family, but there's always stuff to do.  After the solar, a deck, the hot water heater swap I'm considering, gardens... etc.

And I don't know how to reason through "Do it myself" vs "Write a check for it."  It's one thing if I'm good at it or want to learn, but one thing I'm learning with this solar project is that the curse of DIY is that you just start getting (good?  not-horrible?) at something as you finish - and most of the time, the conclusion is "Well, that was a horrible way to accomplish that, even if it worked."  I get some good blog posts out of it, at least...

At some level, one wouldn't expect to DIY an oil change or something if you were a billionaire, but... I really don't know how to reason through all this stuff.

Suggestions? :/

[ilsy]

 In my state, water heater installation requires a permit. I don't have a master's plumber license to pull this permit therefore, i don't do this job on my own. Most non licensed work is on me on my primary residence. Plus, I involve the family, so it counts as a family time.

I have (forget what it's called) a switch installed on my water heater to turn off the gas in case a strong smell, like gas, is detected. A very useful thing. I am kinda handy, but when it comes to installing something important like this (life/death situation), I usually hire someone.

On my rehab properties I replace the whole plumbing (all vents, drains, supplies and installation of fixtures), so water heater is included in the quote. The guys work way faster then me, plus I need to pass the inspection, so I don't ever consider installing plumbing myself on my rehabs, that's counterproductive. But after the installation I do service plumbing for my tenants, because usually I'm more flexible and can be there sooner, but I also can tell the tenants, 'hey don't do that, be thankful I can fix that, because plumbers cost a lot'  (plumbers won't do the tenants' teaching).

Refinishing hardwood floors. It requires skill that I don't posses despite doing a lot of wood projects on my own. This non licensed job I leave to professionals, because, in my opinion, I get a full return on the investment (I can charge a higher rent, and if I ever need to sell my primary residence, the refinished floors would add way more value than I would pay for the job).

Yard. My yard is at a pretty state right now, but it took me about 7 years to get there, and I'm still tweaking and adding/removing and dreaming of doing things because I enjoy doing it and I don't want to loose the opportunity to do it myself with my family, even though it takes time. I love planting new things and discover that yes, those plants are doing great, but this one isn't, and what about this one? Do I like it here? It's a non ending process of experimenting and figuring out what I like, and every year it looks different. My neighbors just paid 50k for someone to landscape their yard professionally. I think it's insane. What is the point of getting a huge yard if you hate working in it?

[Metalcat]

There's no right or wrong here, there's just understanding the impact and consequences of outsourcing or DIY.

That doesn't just mean understanding the actual financial cost, that also means understanding the impact of the hedonic adaptation of outsourcing, but also the possible over burden of DIY.

Everyone has different capacities and different needs.
Where one person may love to tinker with their house over the weekend, another may have a sick parent that requires a lot of their time and energy and suddenly doing house projects seems less like a fun way to spend a Saturday and more like a slogging chore stacked on top of an already over-burdened work load.

Some people here hire housecleaners, some think it's insane. I doubt the difference has much to do with net worth and everything to do with capacity.

If it's a source of pride for you that you do everything you can yourself and you enjoy it, then cool, have at 'er. However, there's also wisdom in knowing when you are wasting your precious energy.

Money is just a resource, and so are time and energy.
It's just as foolish to waste time and energy that you can't afford as it is to waste money you can't afford.

If your choice is between DIY and watching hours of tv to pass the time, then sure, DIY is a better use of your time.

HOWEVER, if it's a choice between some DIY project and any other possible use of your time and energy, then it's entirely possible that something else comes out ahead and is worth more than the money it would cost to outsource.

Money isn't anything in and of itself, it is a placeholder for time and energy. So if you start seeing all three as a continuum of resources, it's a lot easier to Intuit which resource should be spent on any given task.

[WhiteTrashCash]

I hire someone else to do the work if 1.) I would have to buy expensive equipment that I would only use once to do the job, or 2.) It would take too long to learn the skill to do the job that I would only do once.

[Dave1442397]

I hire someone else to do the work if 1.) I would have to buy expensive equipment that I would only use once to do the job, or 2.) It would take too long to learn the skill to do the job that I would only do once.

Same here. Also, if it's a job that requires a permit and licensed contractor in my state/town, then that's who I use. I don't want to DIY and have an insurance company asking me who installed the water heater if there's a gas leak that causes a fire :)

I've done a lot around the house - painted, replaced toilets, sinks, floors, electrical outlets, light fixtures, window panes, etc, but the big stuff I leave to the pros.

[Retire-Canada]

I don't do my own oil changes on my truck. I could, but I don't. Paying the dealership to do that and rotate the tires and inspect the whole truck is worth the cost to me given my limited mechanical knowledge. I could do the oil change, but I wouldn't be able to inspect the vehicle for issues pre-emptively. The cost for this service relative to my net worth is negligible and I offset it by doing most of the other things in my life where I have the skills/ability to DIY: cooking, cleaning, yard maintenance [except for large trees], bicycle maintenance, etc...

I don't have any frame work for making these decisions other than to evaluate my abilities/capabilities vs. the cost of the service. My GF wanted to hire a yard maintenance company to trim all of our hedges [we have a lot of them]. They wanted $500. I said that was crazy talk and we bought a $125 hedge trimmer and I did the cutting/ladder work and my GF collected all the cutting for our municipal compost centre.

OTOH we had two trees get damaged due to storms. I hired an arborist both times to deal with the problems. In theory I could have Googled what to do, bought the equipment and done the work. I suspect I would have saved 50% of the out of pocket cost, but had to put in a lot of labour to cut the trees apart and move the resulting materials. There were also some safety issues with ladder/chainsaws that while not crazy would be non-zero. In the end it seemed better to pay for this service than to do it myself.

If you are well within your spending/saving plans and want to pay for a service I don't see a problem with that. Obviously if you pay for a ton of services you don't need to that will make FIRE harder/further away so you can't do it ad infinitum without consequences.

[Fishindude]

I decided a long time ago that my time was better spent working at my own business making money than it was taking on do it yourself projects around the house.   I could make more at my work, than I could save by doing those projects.

[bloodaxe]

I will not DIY if:
* If it is dangerous
* Buying the tools would be more expensive than paying someone
* Would take a very long time to learn

[msbutterbean]

One other dimension for me is whether the DIY will keep me grounded in what I consider to be "enough." Examples are house cleaning and yard maintenance. I don't ever want to own more of a house/yard than I can take care of myself. I guess that's similar to the hedonic adaptation concern mentioned earlier, but a little more of an active reaffirmation of certain choices.

[Freedomin5]

I outsource anything that other people can do a better job than I can for less time/money than it would take me to do it.

This includes housecleaning, grocery delivery, driving (we use taxi rather than own a car), and DD’s education, among other things.

[bacchi]

I outsource anything that other people can do a better job than I can for less time/money than it would take me to do it.

Both or only one?


Syonyk: Have you checked plumber rates lately? Last year, I hired a plumber for a rental. This year, I'm doing it myself.

[Tester]

One example: I have to change the kitchen faucet.
Simple.
Until I tried for 20 minutes to find a position to use a wrench to unscrew it...with no success.
So I am asking a plumber to come in to change it, plus change one bathroom faucet plus the exterior faucets as they are leaking too.
I could easily change everything except the kitchen one, but I am asking them to do all to have a chance to convince them to come (I would not come to just change one faucet).

[Freedomin5]

I outsource anything that other people can do a better job than I can for less time/money than it would take me to do it.

Both or only one?


Syonyk: Have you checked plumber rates lately? Last year, I hired a plumber for a rental. This year, I'm doing it myself.

Only one. If they can do a better job in less time or if they can do a better job for less money.

[Papa bear]

I am much more open to paying for work when I can expense it, such as a rental, and more willing to DIY at home.

That said, if it’s high up on a ladder (2nd floor exterior work), requires expensive or specialized tools (a brake or say a Bobcat) , or I can’t make it look good (drywall, stucco), I will tend to hire out. 

An H20 tank is a few hours of work.  It’s basic plumbing and/or electrical, like 101 level stuff. I just saw a friend pay close to 1000$ labor for an install.  For me? Definitely DIY. 


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[PMG]

One other dimension for me is whether the DIY will keep me grounded in what I consider to be "enough." Examples are house cleaning and yard maintenance. I don't ever want to own more of a house/yard than I can take care of myself. I guess that's similar to the hedonic adaptation concern mentioned earlier, but a little more of an active reaffirmation of certain choices.

I really appreciate this thoughtful intention. I may need to bookmark these words so I can come back to them again.

[use2betrix]

My opinion is dependent on income. If I was FIRE’d I’d do a lot more simply for being productive, saving money, and learning new things.

When I’m working a lot, I value my free time much more, so I pay others for quite a few things.

[Dicey]

My husband can fix anything. He maintains our vehicles. He's even in the process of painting the exterior of our house, which required a shitload of out-of-the-ordinary prep work.

Ours is a a crazy clown house we selected so that his mom and her pal, Al. Z. Heimer could live with us. We chose it because it's walking distance to his work, within our budget, and had a layout suitable for his mom. We have four toilets. After about a year, DH suggested we use cleaners every other week. I agreed and was seriously relieved. It was amazing to have everything clean all at the same time.

At the end of last year, we moved his mom to a Board & Care, and kept the cleaners. They Covid hit and they did not return for six months. It sucked. Now they're back and I'm thrilled. We'll keep having them twice a month until we downsize, at which point, I'll take over cleaning duties again. Maybe.

In the meantime, we have eaten out exactly one time since mid-March. It's a good trade, IMO. It's also the beauty of being FI (us) and RE(me).

[norajean]

I will DIY anything I can do easily and safely.  The safety card ratchets up with age (as do the convenience and the money cards!).  I no longer wish to be on tall (20-30') ladders, for example, as the consequences of a fall could be huge.  I recently paid a guy (who was already painting across the street) $20 to shimmy up a 20' extension ladder and replace a dryer vent for me.  We were both thrilled with that deal.  I do not DIY major electrical, plumbing, HVAC, roofing as I'm not qualified.  I'm also not very interested in sharp rotating equipment (saws, etc) nor toxic chemicals (I pay for oil changes on the car).

[Freedomin5]

I'm also not very interested in sharp rotating equipment (saws, etc) nor toxic chemicals (I pay for oil changes on the car).

That is especially true for someone like myself who has been diagnosed with visual-perceptual weaknesses and poor hand-eye coordination. I'd probably end up losing a limb -- that would make the task Very Expensive.

[ericrugiero]

You get to make this decision yourself and you shouldn't feel guilty about it.  Normally, I would encourage you to do it yourself because it's not a very hard job if you are putting in the same type and size. But, it sounds like you are pretty loaded down with projects right now so I wouldn't feel guilty hiring it out either. 

I changed an electrical hot water heater about a year ago in 2-3 hours and I had never done it before.  (note: you do need someone to help you move the old heater out and the new heater in.)  Mine was also pretty much best case scenario in that it was easy to drain, fit in the same space, not difficult to access and electric rather than gas. 

In general, I make these decisions base on a few factors.
-  How hard is it? 
-  How much can I save by DIY?
-  Consequences of messing up?  (safety or financial)
-  Do I have time right now?

Some jobs are easier to just do yourself.  I change my own oil mostly because I don't like taking my vehicles to the shop and waiting.  I can do the job as quick as they can and DIY saves me the drive time and time waiting for them to start working on my vehicle.  The cost savings aren't that much so I would be willing to pay but it's just easier to do it myself. 

The water heater was a definite DIY job because our previous heater started leaking on a Friday.  Hiring a plumber would have meant scheduling them over the weekend (unlikely or $$$) or waiting till the next week.  It was easier to just do it myself and I saved a good bit of money. 

[ketchup]

I am much more open to paying for work when I can expense it, such as a rental, and more willing to DIY at home.

There it is!

No, I will not fiddle around with replacing the shutter on my GF's DSLR myself when she could just mail it out and get it replaced for a few hundred bucks.  She can deduct that and is self employed (she gets almost half of it back in tax savings).

Will I spend a few hours Saturday morning mucking around with our car's brakes to save a few hundred after-tax dollars? Absolutely.

[Paper Chaser]

I can absolutely relate, and talked a little about a very similar thought process in this thread:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-tipping-point-for-paying-somebody-else-vs-diy/msg2636577/#msg2636577

Burnout is real. If you've got too much on your plate, and can buy yourself a little relief to either get a few of the small projects off your plate, or handle the biggest project that might be worth it. For the record, I'm still deliberating on my crawlspace project discussed in that thread.

[Sibley]

Well, I just scheduled a cleaner to come this week. I can clean, but I've got a lot of things on my plate right now and my sister is coming. I really don't have the time this week to do the deep clean needed on the kitchen and bathrooms. I'll put the junk away before they get here.

I also paid $4500 to landscapers to do some low skill work which I absolutely could have done. But it took 3 experienced guys 4 days to do the job, and they had all the tools to do it right. My material costs would have been higher due to delivery, I would have needed to rent tools, oh and it would have taken me way longer than 12 days.

There's a cost to everything. DIY may have lower dollar cost, but it may have higher non-monetary cost - time, physical, emotional, etc. So, what's the real cost of DIY vs. hiring it out? That's what you do your math on.

[NotBadForADad]

I do most things myself unless its electrical work of plumbing.

I used to be a flooring install and builder, so I tackle all the labor stuff myself. From flooring, tearing down and putting up new walls, to light plumbing (fixed both my toilets and kitchen sinks a few times).

Honestly, the older I'm getting the less time I seem to have, or I'm just plain lazy. I want a new 20x20 L-shaped patio with a pergola. I don't have masonry tools. I can probably do this myself and with a friend, I put a patio in for my mother about 15 years ago. I'll probably hire this out and have them take a week at most as opposed to me working every weekend over a few months.

[Bloop Bloop]

I decided a long time ago that my time was better spent working at my own business making money than it was taking on do it yourself projects around the house.   I could make more at my work, than I could save by doing those projects.

This. To me it's mainly a financial decision, and often made easier by the fact that most services I pay for are deductible or arguably deductible (since I have a home office and investment property, pretty much everything can be argued to be deductible).

There are some things - like washing and waxing the car - that I enjoy, so I do it myself even though it's "inefficient"; and there are some things that are so regular and routine (like washing dishes) that I do them myself out of habit - but for everything else like plumbing, furniture assembly, moving in and out, anything to do with wiring - I pay someone else to do it.

[zolotiyeruki]

I can totally sympathize with you, Syonyk.  It sounds like you've hit a bit of burnout, and I've felt the same way at times.  We recently replaced our 15-year-old dishwasher (and hate it*), although I probably could have eventually diagnosed why the heating coil wasn't doing its job, and fixed it myself. (this dishwasher had already received many, many repairs)

A couple questions that might help you make up your mind:
1) if you hire it out, how much retirement are you giving up?
2) if you DIY it, what are you giving up now?
3) do you have too much on your plate, and is some simplification/downsizing/decluttering in order? IOW, are your possessions possessing you?  <-- this one is one I'm trying to tackle now.

* Mini-rant:  thanks, US DoE, for making dishwashers horrible, thanks to your unrealistic water and energy restrictions!

[mntnmn117]

"I can; therefore I must."  Yup guilty.  I don't pay for anything but the last plumbing project almost put me over the edge.  I called 2 plumbers and got the same rates for a simple spigot replacement. Roughly $200 to show up and $40 for every 15min after the first 15min. That seemed insane.

So I did it myself, broke a larger 1" line in the process and 2 trips to the hardware store and 4 trips under the house later got it all back together.  About 3 hours invested to save $200.

[zolotiyeruki]

"I can; therefore I must."  Yup guilty.  I don't pay for anything but the last plumbing project almost put me over the edge.  I called 2 plumbers and got the same rates for a simple spigot replacement. Roughly $200 to show up and $40 for every 15min after the first 15min. That seemed insane.

So I did it myself, broke a larger 1" line in the process and 2 trips to the hardware store and 4 trips under the house later got it all back together.  About 3 hours invested to save $200.

In other words, you saved yourself about $100/hr by doing it yourself, once you add back in the taxes you didn't have to pay in order to have $200 to spend on a plumber.

[BlueHouse]

I've just decided to hire someone else to cook for me. 

No, I didn't hire a cook.  But I'm going to have more prepared meals and a few days a week of fresh meals delivered to my doorstep.  I probably won't do this forever, but I've slipped into some very unhealthy habits that I want to correct.  And I throw away so much food that I will probably save money doing this until I can reset myself. 

1. Freshly - meals delivered to my doorstep
2. Cut fruit and veggies -- no more wasted, rotting fruit in the fridge
3. Meal Kits for when I do feel like cooking something

The simple truth is that I can afford it, and if it works to get me back to healthy lifestyle, then it's worth it. 

[mozar]

My rules are:

1. Are there good youtube tutorials I can follow? By good I mean can I follow along and figure it out? I figured out that I can fix my electronic lawnmower by switching out the bridge rectifier. Super easy. A new lawnmower is $250. Bridge rectifier $5.99.

2. How meticulous is the work? For something like waterproofing you have to care about the details. In my area contractors are in such high demand that they will rush through the project. They absolutely do not care at all if they make it worse or break it.

3. How tedious is the work? If it's very tedious but low skill I would rather do it myself rather than paying someone by the hour. I am doing a garden project and I needed to haul compost. It took me about 8 trips to do it. The compost was free so not a big deal to me.

4. How big a job is it? Sometimes contractors don't want to bother with jobs that they won't make a big enough profit on.

5. Are there codes involved? I did all the carpentry work on my kitchen renovation myself but my coop required that a licensed electrician change all my outlets to gfci. It cost an extra $1500 that I hadn't been planning for.

[Bloop Bloop]

MMM places a fairly high value of self-sufficiency and the value of hard work (in a non vocational setting). I place nil value on it. I'd rather save my self-discipline for my job which, although not terribly long in hours, requires a lot of attention and discipline under pressure.

People do things differently. For my girlfriend and me, since both of us have demanding jobs, we tend to take the easiest route possible with most other things. Automation and taking advantage of hiring people to do cheap things for us works for us.

[Syonyk]

In my state, water heater installation requires a permit. I don't have a master's plumber license to pull this permit therefore, i don't do this job on my own. Most non licensed work is on me on my primary residence. Plus, I involve the family, so it counts as a family time.

I need a permit for it, but I'm pretty certain that I can pull a permit as a homeowner and be fine.  Just needs an inspection after I'm done.  Assuming, of course, the work is done correctly.  Common wisdom out here is that there's no point in pulling a permit to just swap out a hot water heater, but I'm not old enough to get away with that sort of thing...

I outsource anything that other people can do a better job than I can for less time/money than it would take me to do it.

This includes housecleaning, grocery delivery, driving (we use taxi rather than own a car), and DD’s education, among other things.

*checks which site he's on*  Huh..., still MMM...

Part of my problem here is that, on occasion, I've outsourced stuff - and have ended up deciding that if I want to ruin a vehicle, I can do it myself just as well as a shop.  The worst of the bunch (in the past decade) was when I decided, hey, I'll save the time and try an oil change shop, lots of people seem to use them and it's fine.  The shop forgot a new crush washer on the drain plug (so the oil plug leaked a 6" spot overnight), they failed to seal the air filter housing after replacing it because it wasn't aligned right (so I had a post-filter leak), and because it wasn't lined up, they just left the other screw in the windshield tray.  And billed me an awful lot of money for basically trying to ruin my car.  What's the point of that, again?

I'm willing to take the time to do stuff properly, for some value of properly that I'm comfortable with - and if I'm not sure, I'll look it up instead of just barging through.

Syonyk: Have you checked plumber rates lately? Last year, I hired a plumber for a rental. This year, I'm doing it myself.

Yeah, they're... fairly obscene. :/  One place wanted $4k out the door to install the water heater, which is a bit nuts on a $1300 or $2000 unit, IMO.  However, they might handle the permits too, not sure.  Another place wanted $450 for an install, but didn't really mention permits either.  I should call back and see if the permits are my problem there...

1) if you hire it out, how much retirement are you giving up?
2) if you DIY it, what are you giving up now?

Reasonable enough questions.  The high end of paying someone to do it basically means that the cost savings over the expected lifespan of the water heater are consumed by the install fees, rather defeating the purpose.  DIY is probably a weekend and change, plus a few trips into town.  So, likely, at least one day without any hot water in the house, given how things tend to work.

3) do you have too much on your plate, and is some simplification/downsizing/decluttering in order? IOW, are your possessions possessing you?  <-- this one is one I'm trying to tackle now.

I have a lot on my plate, mostly called the solar install that's... a lot more work than I expected.  I didn't realize just how much work trenching through our hillside was.  However, the various incentives that cut off half the cost do last until the end of the year, so maybe I can get to it after solar is online...

People do things differently. For my girlfriend and me, since both of us have demanding jobs, we tend to take the easiest route possible with most other things. Automation and taking advantage of hiring people to do cheap things for us works for us.

I've mostly given up on automation.  It ends up taking more time to manage than it saves. :/

[Freedomin5]

Quote from: Freedomin5 on September 26, 2020, 04:39:35 PM
I outsource anything that other people can do a better job than I can for less time/money than it would take me to do it.

This includes housecleaning, grocery delivery, driving (we use taxi rather than own a car), and DD’s education, among other things.

*checks which site he's on*  Huh..., still MMM...

Part of my problem here is that, on occasion, I've outsourced stuff - and have ended up deciding that if I want to ruin a vehicle, I can do it myself just as well as a shop.  The worst of the bunch (in the past decade) was when I decided, hey, I'll save the time and try an oil change shop, lots of people seem to use them and it's fine.  The shop forgot a new crush washer on the drain plug (so the oil plug leaked a 6" spot overnight), they failed to seal the air filter housing after replacing it because it wasn't aligned right (so I had a post-filter leak), and because it wasn't lined up, they just left the other screw in the windshield tray.  And billed me an awful lot of money for basically trying to ruin my car.  What's the point of that, again?

I'm willing to take the time to do stuff properly, for some value of properly that I'm comfortable with - and if I'm not sure, I'll look it up instead of just barging through

In Canada, I’d probably do things differently. Here, housecleaning costs $6/hour. This is just pure luxury, I admit. I just really hate cleaning.

Grocery delivery is $0.80 (5 RMB). By using grocery delivery, I don’t need to buy a car or pay for a taxi, and I can shop at the grocery store that is farther away with the cheaper prices (compared to the pricey expat store that is walking distance). I save more than $0.80 by shopping at the cheaper grocery store. It also happens to save me a lot of time.

Taxi averages $5/trip, and we usually don’t take taxi — we usually bike/walk/scooter. And because we use taxis for longer distances, we don’t need a car, thereby saving us a ton of money in all car-related costs.

DD’s private school education is free. I found a hack for it. If a parent works for the school, the kid gets to go there for free. So we found a job at one of the best international schools in the city, and DD’s USD$35,000 education is free.

So yes, you are still on the MMM forum. :)

[FLBiker]

Lots of good perspectives here.  We're at the point where we're pretty close to FIRE, I earn a good (by our fairly modest standards) salary and we have a 5 year old.  Since I still work full-time (DW doesn't currently work -- we just moved from the US to Canada, plus we're waiting to see how COVID shakes out) I am more willing to outsource stuff than in times past.  For me, the focus is on spending non-work time with my family rather than saving as much money as possible.  That would certainly change, though, if our circumstances changed.  Obviously, if I were to lose my job, but also if my wife were to get a job (in which case I'd try to downshift to part-time and do more DIY).

As I think a lot of folks have said in different ways, it's a balance, and it isn't static.