Author Topic: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes  (Read 12539 times)

frugaliknowit

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"Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« on: June 19, 2014, 01:49:50 PM »
Does anyone know the (ill)legality of telling your cellphone provider (through an on-line account) that you live somewhere other than you do to avoid local (ridiculous) cellphone and sales taxes?  I know of folks that do this.  This would bother my conscience somewhat and I am concerned that if there were ever a crackdown (which I believe there will be), we could have some legal difficulties.  More likely, I think the providers might be bullied into verifying addresses (going forward) and there would be no repercussions for past address fraud.

CommonCents

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2014, 02:00:43 PM »
Does anyone know the (ill)legality of telling your cellphone provider (through an on-line account) that you live somewhere other than you do to avoid local (ridiculous) cellphone and sales taxes?  I know of folks that do this.  This would bother my conscience somewhat and I am concerned that if there were ever a crackdown (which I believe there will be), we could have some legal difficulties.  More likely, I think the providers might be bullied into verifying addresses (going forward) and there would be no repercussions for past address fraud.

I'm sure it's again ToS.  Whether it's also against the law and/or you might get caught?  Couldn't say, but I agree it's unethical at the best.  This type of saving falls under the cheap side of the ledger for me, not the frugal side.

arebelspy

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2014, 02:02:42 PM »
Fraud is illegal.  On top of that, it's unethical.  Even if there are no repercussions, and even if you're never caught, you still have to live with yourself.  See: recent thread on lying, and MMM's post on getting rich with honesty.

If you think the taxes are ridiculous, don't buy it.  Do whatever you can to legally and honestly reduce your tax burden, and then pay what you owe.  Don't lie, cheat, and steal.

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Cheers.

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Guses

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2014, 02:27:02 PM »
I am not sure how this would classify as being illegal or fraudulent. I assume that you are legally entitled to go to the physical location and buy it there without paying the local sales taxes.

I think MMM himself does something similar by sharing his internet connection with neighbours. It would be great to get arebelspy's opinion on this.

arebelspy

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2014, 11:29:12 PM »
There's a difference between legitimately paying for a service and sharing it and lying to defraud a company/the government to avoid taxes.
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gooki

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2014, 02:40:53 AM »
Now I'm all for honestly, but I don't believe you are legally required to provide companies with accurate information. In which case it's a matter of personal morals.

I know I've given netflix false information in order to use their services in a forgien country. I also don't pay sales tax on some of my purchases by importing a my bike parts and consumer electronics.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 02:42:32 AM by gooki »

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2014, 04:02:12 AM »
not sure on taxes but phone fraud/crimes are felonies, normally wiretapping and cloning phones but this may fall under it

but if you cant afford the taxes, you probably cant afford the phone plan either, like above poster said

that said maybe phone companies tailor taxes to phone location/phone towers and not mailing address?

warfreak2

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2014, 04:09:36 AM »
Now I'm all for honestly, but I don't believe you are legally required to provide companies with accurate information. In which case it's a matter of personal morals.
OTOH, you are legally required to pay tax that is required by law (that's a tautology!), whether or not that tax is collected through a company. There may not be a law specifically against lying to companies... but if you start lying to, for example, the company that you use to file your tax return, then it's fraud or tax avoidance. Or if you have two tax-advantaged accounts at different banks, and you lie to each bank about your contributions into the other account. There is no law specifically protecting your right to lie to companies in all circumstances, certainly not one which trumps the tax code.

nordlead

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2014, 06:45:07 AM »
Commonly ignored, is that if you import something you have to pay "use" tax on it. So, in NY, if I buy something online from NJ, I have to pay 8% use tax, which NY attempts to collect on the income tax forms. Also, with use tax, you typically get a credit for other states sales taxes. So, if I bought locally in NJ and paid 7%, and then brought the item to NY, I'd pay 1% to NY.

So, under NY law, you'd be committing tax fraud (and incur penalties and/or interest) if you legitimately lived in another state and then later moved to NY but failed to pay the tax differences or informed the business that you should now be taxed for NY.

Guses

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2014, 07:06:03 AM »
There's a difference between legitimately paying for a service and sharing it and lying to defraud a company/the government to avoid taxes.

I don't agree with your arbitrary division. You can do both of these things at the same time. It is not a either/or proposition.

Going back to the MMM example, MMM was defrauding the company of its revenue and also the government because he was not paying taxes on the portion of the service he was not paying for.

In the case of the OP, he is legitimally paying for the service.


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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2014, 07:26:24 AM »
I've got to agree with arebelspy here.   Lying to a company to avoid paying taxes is defrauding the government.  It's illegal.

arebelspy

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2014, 07:28:22 AM »
There's a difference between legitimately paying for a service and sharing it and lying to defraud a company/the government to avoid taxes.

I don't agree with your arbitrary division. You can do both of these things at the same time. It is not a either/or proposition.

Going back to the MMM example, MMM was defrauding the company of its revenue and also the government because he was not paying taxes on the portion of the service he was not paying for.

In the case of the OP, he is legitimally paying for the service.

Sure, of course you can. But that doesn't mean they can't be separate either, where do you one without the other.

You aren't obligated to create as much business as possible and pay as much tax as possible, so sharing a service isn't defrauding the government of taxes.

Lying to get out of paying taxes is tax evasion, and then the government will trump on all the usual shenanigans like write fraud, etc.

Now.. Will they catch you, or even care? No, probably not.  That doesn't make it illegal, but even more important, it has no bearing on the morality.

Legally paying for a service and sharing it with a friend is different than purposefully lying with the intent to defraud the government of taxes.
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frugaliknowit

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2014, 07:39:17 AM »
I believe the sharing internet connection with a neighbor is "a violation of terms of service", whereas the phony New Hampshire mailing address is tax fraud (to whatever government).

eil

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2014, 07:52:00 AM »
Quote
Legally paying for a service and sharing it with a friend is different than purposefully lying with the intent to defraud the government of taxes.

It was perhaps not the best analogy, but if we're going to pick nits, I have to argue that sharing your Internet service with a neighbor is technically skirting the rules and avoiding (or allowing your neighbor to avoid) paying local taxes.

Any ISP you sign up with makes you agree to terms of service and those terms universally state that you are not allowed to resell your residential Internet connection. If we're looking at it from the tax angle, then there are almost always state and local taxes that are charged on a per-account basis. Sharing one internet connection among two or more households deprives state and local government of those fees and taxes that would otherwise be assessed to those accounts.

I fully support MMM's internet sharing arrangement and I would happily do the same thing if I could *and* sleep well at night doing it. But we're down to "degrees of wrongness" here and I don't see this significantly less or more wrong than not paying use tax or lying about your address when buying a mobile phone.

Cpa Cat

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2014, 07:56:23 AM »
When I signed up for Ting, they said they would only collect whatever fees/taxes were legally required. Naturally, I expected those fees/taxes to be the same as the ones on my Sprint bill.

My Sprint bill had $18 of fees and taxes. My Ting bill has around $2.

Given how defrauded we all are by cell phone companies, I wonder how fraudulent it really is to dodge these charges.

arebelspy

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2014, 08:03:09 AM »
When I signed up for Ting, they said they would only collect whatever fees/taxes were legally required. Naturally, I expected those fees/taxes to be the same as the ones on my Sprint bill.

My Sprint bill had $18 of fees and taxes. My Ting bill has around $2.

Given how defrauded we all are by cell phone companies, I wonder how fraudulent it really is to dodge these charges.

Fully.  Dodging a tax because you don't agree is tax evasion.  Feel free to attempt to find out why those fees and taxes are being charged, and fight them if they're not legitimate - but don't lie to evade them.
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shadowmoss

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2014, 08:23:22 AM »
I share my Consumer Cellular account with my Mom.  I'm in Arizona, she is in Missouri.  When I told Consumer Cellular my new AZ address my taxes skyrocketed.  So, I just changed and put Mom as the primary account holder/address.  Taxes fell back down.  Since both of us are on the account, it isn't lying.  See if you can do something similar with someone (you trust) who lives in a lower tax jurisdiction.  To add a second account on Consumer Cellular it is $10.  So, it depends on how much you save on taxes.

CommonCents

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2014, 08:29:23 AM »
When I signed up for Ting, they said they would only collect whatever fees/taxes were legally required. Naturally, I expected those fees/taxes to be the same as the ones on my Sprint bill.

My Sprint bill had $18 of fees and taxes. My Ting bill has around $2.

Given how defrauded we all are by cell phone companies, I wonder how fraudulent it really is to dodge these charges.

Fully.  Dodging a tax because you don't agree is tax evasion.  Feel free to attempt to find out why those fees and taxes are being charged, and fight them if they're not legitimate - but don't lie to evade them.

As my federal income tax professor (paraphrased) put in law school, "There's tax evasion and tax avoidance.  Tax evasion is illegal.  I'm here to teach you about tax avoidance."

Much as you might dislike various exemptions, it is fully legal to take advantage of all of them to AVOID tax.  However, claiming an exemption you aren't otherwise entitled to is tax EVASION.

Shadowmoss's approach is a good example of what I think is tax avoidance, a likely legal and legitimate strategy based on using the address of another legitimate account holder, as opposed to creating a fake address or using the address of a friend not on the account.

arebelspy

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2014, 08:38:58 AM »
When I signed up for Ting, they said they would only collect whatever fees/taxes were legally required. Naturally, I expected those fees/taxes to be the same as the ones on my Sprint bill.

My Sprint bill had $18 of fees and taxes. My Ting bill has around $2.

Given how defrauded we all are by cell phone companies, I wonder how fraudulent it really is to dodge these charges.

Fully.  Dodging a tax because you don't agree is tax evasion.  Feel free to attempt to find out why those fees and taxes are being charged, and fight them if they're not legitimate - but don't lie to evade them.

As my federal income tax professor (paraphrased) put in law school, "There's tax evasion and tax avoidance.  Tax evasion is illegal.  I'm here to teach you about tax avoidance."

Much as you might dislike various exemptions, it is fully legal to take advantage of all of them to AVOID tax.  However, claiming an exemption you aren't otherwise entitled to is tax EVASION.

Shadowmoss's approach is a good example of what I think is tax avoidance, a likely legal and legitimate strategy based on using the address of another legitimate account holder, as opposed to creating a fake address or using the address of a friend not on the account.

Absolutely.  You have no obligation to maximize your taxes, and if you have legitimate reason to claim that address, great, not only is it okay to do so, I'd encourage you to!

Shadowmoss did it perfectly.  OP's suggestion not so much.

I agree with every part of your post.
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TreeTired

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2014, 08:51:59 AM »
I moved from NJ to NC 6 years ago.   My ATT wireless bill gets mailed to my current address in NC,  but they are still charging me NJ state sales (telecom) tax.   I don't know what the NC tax would be.

arebelspy

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2014, 09:01:24 AM »
I moved from NJ to NC 6 years ago.   My ATT wireless bill gets mailed to my current address in NC,  but they are still charging me NJ state sales (telecom) tax.   I don't know what the NC tax would be.

Not correcting their mistake (especially if you don't know if it's beneficial or not, you just aren't bothering) is different than a situation where if you cancelled and signed up for new service and they asked you for your (permanent) address and you purposefully put your old NC address (but asked them to mail the bill to NJ) in order to avoid taxes that you knew were higher.

Like someone said earlier, there's shades of grey, and degrees of wrong, and whatever.  IMO, your example is still okay with me, but I'm fine if others feel the compulsion to update it "just in case" the new taxes are higher (or lower), so they can feel good about that.

But the example in the OP seems pretty clear to me to not be so grey.
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dragoncar

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2014, 09:15:13 AM »
I told them I live on mars.  Ain't no taxes on mars, but it's not a good place to raise your kids.

lisahi

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2014, 09:20:47 AM »

I fully support MMM's internet sharing arrangement and I would happily do the same thing if I could *and* sleep well at night doing it. But we're down to "degrees of wrongness" here and I don't see this significantly less or more wrong than not paying use tax or lying about your address when buying a mobile phone.

I think we basically are down to "degrees of wrongness," and giving a company a fake address while actively lying to them seems a lot more wrong. It's also a lot more clearly illegal.

In MMM's case, the government doesn't know MMM has an internet connection because the residential internet account is not in his name nor is his address connected with any residential internet account. Yet he does have an internet connection. It is highly likely his neighbors are violating a term of service on their account by re-selling their connection, in part, to MMM. Whether MMM has committed some sort of fraud on the government by not getting his own Internet connection is up for debate, though. Just because the state is getting less in use taxes because MMM is sharing an Internet connection doesn't necessarily make what he's doing illegal. If somebody can find statutory law or case law on the subject from MMM's home state that says it is illegal, than there's your answer. But I can easily see how it wouldn't be illegal. Technically, because MMM is paying for part of the Internet bill he is paying for some of the use tax associated with it -- the only real question is whether it is illegal in his state for two separate physical structures or two separate families to only use one Internet connection.

In the situation described by the OP -- that's clearly illegal. I'm not sure how it can't be. He is actively telling a telecommunications company that he is living in another state, specifically to avoid paying the taxes in the state he is actually living in. He is defrauding the telecommunications company who then passes on that fraudulent information to the states involved (either actively by giving the OP's pretend state the lower use tax, or passively by not giving the OP's real state the higher use tax). It's clear in the bill that those taxes are government-mandated taxes and that they would be passed on to the government. By actively avoiding the taxes the OP is actually supposed to be paying by living in a certain state, he's defrauding the government and it's a form of tax evasion. He isn't sharing somebody else's phone plan and paying half the bill -- he's getting his own phone plan using fraudulent information.

I should add that I was accidentally paying Washington state use tax on my phone for years, even though I had changed my address with AT&T. They didn't notice and I didn't notice that they weren't charging me Texas state taxes. When I finally did discover it, I called them up and they changed it. Texas taxes were lower, so I had been screwing myself for those years and Washington state benefited.

dragoncar

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2014, 09:44:26 AM »

I fully support MMM's internet sharing arrangement and I would happily do the same thing if I could *and* sleep well at night doing it. But we're down to "degrees of wrongness" here and I don't see this significantly less or more wrong than not paying use tax or lying about your address when buying a mobile phone.

I think we basically are down to "degrees of wrongness," and giving a company a fake address while actively lying to them seems a lot more wrong. It's also a lot more clearly illegal.

In MMM's case, the government doesn't know MMM has an internet connection because the residential internet account is not in his name nor is his address connected with any residential internet account. Yet he does have an internet connection. It is highly likely his neighbors are violating a term of service on their account by re-selling their connection, in part, to MMM. Whether MMM has committed some sort of fraud on the government by not getting his own Internet connection is up for debate, though. Just because the state is getting less in use taxes because MMM is sharing an Internet connection doesn't necessarily make what he's doing illegal. If somebody can find statutory law or case law on the subject from MMM's home state that says it is illegal, than there's your answer. But I can easily see how it wouldn't be illegal. Technically, because MMM is paying for part of the Internet bill he is paying for some of the use tax associated with it -- the only real question is whether it is illegal in his state for two separate physical structures or two separate families to only use one Internet connection.

In the situation described by the OP -- that's clearly illegal. I'm not sure how it can't be. He is actively telling a telecommunications company that he is living in another state, specifically to avoid paying the taxes in the state he is actually living in. He is defrauding the telecommunications company who then passes on that fraudulent information to the states involved (either actively by giving the OP's pretend state the lower use tax, or passively by not giving the OP's real state the higher use tax). It's clear in the bill that those taxes are government-mandated taxes and that they would be passed on to the government. By actively avoiding the taxes the OP is actually supposed to be paying by living in a certain state, he's defrauding the government and it's a form of tax evasion. He isn't sharing somebody else's phone plan and paying half the bill -- he's getting his own phone plan using fraudulent information.

I should add that I was accidentally paying Washington state use tax on my phone for years, even though I had changed my address with AT&T. They didn't notice and I didn't notice that they weren't charging me Texas state taxes. When I finally did discover it, I called them up and they changed it. Texas taxes were lower, so I had been screwing myself for those years and Washington state benefited.

Lemme axe you guys a serious question:  When you order something on the internet, and don't get charged sales tax, do you report this with your state income tax filing and remit the proper use tax along with the necessary recordkeeping for each purchase?  If not, you may be stealing literally dozens of cents from your state per year!

Guses

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2014, 10:05:08 AM »
There appears to be some cognitive dissonance at work here.

Wether you steal cable, share an internet connection or lie about your address, you are depriving the state of taxes that it would be due if you had not stole, shared or lied. It's all the same to me.

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2014, 10:32:39 AM »
There appears to be some cognitive dissonance at work here.

Wether you steal cable, share an internet connection or lie about your address, you are depriving the state of taxes that it would be due if you had not stole, shared or lied. It's all the same to me.

Not everyone thinks that all illegal things are immoral, or vice versa.  That doesn't necessarily imply cognitive dissonance.  If I lend my neighbor a hammer, I am depriving the state of taxes it would be due if I had not shared.

nordlead

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2014, 10:34:32 AM »
Again, you have to read your state laws.

In NY, if I were to set my billing address to Delaware (to say a second house I own, or to another member's address on the phone plan), but I used the service in NY, I would owe NY use taxes. I don't know if the E911 or other fees would apply, but I would still owe NY taxes. In NY, there is no legal way to avoid paying sales/use tax, which would be incurred on a phone line.

As for the morality/ethics of it and comparison to sharing Internet (against the ToS), I don't care. People need to come to their own conclusions.

Honestly though, you are either spending too much on your wireless plan, or you are talking about saving less than $5/month. I pay $4.91/month in NY/Federal phone related taxes/fees for two cell phones, and NY has some of the highest taxes/fees in the country. Seems pretty petty to avoid taxes at that rate. If you are going to cheat the government you should at least do it for a few thousand.

DoubleDown

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2014, 10:43:24 AM »
I told them I live on mars.  Ain't no taxes on mars, but it's not a good place to raise your kids.

It sure isn't. In fact, it's cold as hell.

Guses

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2014, 11:07:37 AM »
There appears to be some cognitive dissonance at work here.

Wether you steal cable, share an internet connection or lie about your address, you are depriving the state of taxes that it would be due if you had not stole, shared or lied. It's all the same to me.

Not everyone thinks that all illegal things are immoral, or vice versa.  That doesn't necessarily imply cognitive dissonance.  If I lend my neighbor a hammer, I am depriving the state of taxes it would be due if I had not shared.

Not really because when you buy the hammer, there are no TOS. You can do whatever the heck you want with it. When you buy an internet connection service, the TOS explicitly state that you cannot resell or "share" the service with another address. Turning around and reselling the service is fradulent at worst and immoral at best.

My cognitive dissonance statement was aimed at certain members claiming that the OP was fraudulous yet also stating that MMM was fine. Especially given that the justification was that the OP was committing tax avoidance (which is also exactly what MMM was doing).

dragoncar

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2014, 11:12:16 AM »
There appears to be some cognitive dissonance at work here.

Wether you steal cable, share an internet connection or lie about your address, you are depriving the state of taxes that it would be due if you had not stole, shared or lied. It's all the same to me.

Not everyone thinks that all illegal things are immoral, or vice versa.  That doesn't necessarily imply cognitive dissonance.  If I lend my neighbor a hammer, I am depriving the state of taxes it would be due if I had not shared.

Not really because when you buy the hammer, there are no TOS. You can do whatever the heck you want with it. When you buy an internet connection service, the TOS explicitly state that you cannot resell or "share" the service with another address. Turning around and reselling the service is fradulent at worst and immoral at best.

My cognitive dissonance statement was aimed at certain members claiming that the OP was fraudulous yet also stating that MMM was fine. Especially given that the justification was that the OP was committing tax avoidance (which is also exactly what MMM was doing).

MMM doesn't resell internet though, he buys internet.  He didn't agree to any TOS.

Guses

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2014, 12:04:23 PM »
Potato/potatoe.

Regardless, he was pretty explicit about condoning the practice on either side in his blogpost. My main point being that one should not condemn the OP and then praise MMM for basically the same thing.

How about this curveball: For the sake of argument, what if a family member of the OP, whom happens to live in the state with the lower sales taxes, were to purchase the cell phone service for the OP and then the OP pays back the family member. Would that be OK?

« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 12:08:49 PM by Guses »

lisahi

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Re: "Fudging" your mailing address to avoid cell phone taxes
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2014, 12:17:08 PM »

Lemme axe you guys a serious question:  When you order something on the internet, and don't get charged sales tax, do you report this with your state income tax filing and remit the proper use tax along with the necessary recordkeeping for each purchase?  If not, you may be stealing literally dozens of cents from your state per year!

I'm not sure how that's the same as purposefully, actively and knowingly giving a telecommunications company false information specifically in order to not pay taxes that you would automatically be charged if you had given the company your actual address.

Tax paid to your state government at the end of the year for all the items that you purchased online is a complicated area. Very few people know that's what they should do and even of the folks who do, most wouldn't know how to initiate payment or know how much they really owe unless they kept track of every receipt (also, 5 states don't require sales tax on Internet goods where the retailer doesn't have a physical presence in the state). If it was clear to folks that you needed to pay sales tax on these items (and clear how to do it), then there would have been no need for the Marketplace Fairness Act to be introduced in Congress last year. While technically, ignorance is no excuse for violating law, mass ignorance and difficulty of compliance creates a grey area that probably needs greater clarity by those in power. The vast majority of people who do not pay sales tax on online items are not purposefully defrauding the government through active statements of lies.

If you're asking about me, specifically... you're barking up the wrong tree. I can't recall the last time I purchased anything online that wasn't at Amazon.com, and since Amazon has a physical warehouse in Texas I am already paying state sales tax on my online purchases. I even pay state sales tax on non-physical items like movie and TV show downloads--my Amazon Prime Membership is even taxed.

My statements, by the way, regarding MMM's situation and the OP's situation, did not primarily have to do with what is "right" or "wrong." Merely what is clearly illegal vs. what may not be illegal at all (even if it violates the ToS that MMM's neighbor signed).
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 12:19:14 PM by lisahi »