Author Topic: "Fishing Naked"  (Read 6271 times)

EscapeVelocity2020

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"Fishing Naked"
« on: June 09, 2015, 09:41:44 PM »
OK, I totally un-Mustachianly wasted $4 and untold lifespan and brain-cells watching and considering this movie (but I do love the laziness I feel patronizing B-movies...) I just saw on Amazon (first it started with me planning for watching this with my wife, figuring out a way to keep the kids occupied, and then actually watching it, and discussing it...  and now I'm here, adding to my losses :)

So my question really is, what does it take to live on 'native lands'?  Could I really just show up and set up camp, maybe with a really nice tee-pee (as seems to be implied by the movie, not hopefully being culturally insensitive by believing this movie)...

 Anybody have any clue about what would happen if a respectful camper showed up on a 'reservation'?

iamlindoro

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2015, 09:51:44 PM »
Anybody have any clue about what would happen if a respectful camper showed up on a 'reservation'?

Probably the same thing that would happen to you on the soil of any foreign nation.  You'd eventually be discovered and escorted off.  That would be the best case scenario, mind you.

The government recognizes indigenous tribes as sovereign nations existing within the parent nation.  They are thus not independent, but are self governing while still being obliged to follow federal law.  As a non-citizen, you have no right to be there, and due to a combination of factors including (but definitely not limited to) hundreds of years of very painful history between European and indigenous Americans, general trespassing, not having a connection to the community, and modern problems affecting many reservations such as substance abuse, it is very likely you would get a much more unfriendly reception.

I haven't seen the movie you mention.  It sounds terrible, and probably highly offensive to indigenous people given the takeaway.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2015, 10:07:53 PM »
(Removed because it was so off the mark it was embarrassing)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 09:12:21 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

iamlindoro

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2015, 11:08:26 PM »
May I ask why you feel the need to visit a reservation specifically?  I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just a matter requiring quite a lot of diplomacy.  It's definitely NOT a "better to ask forgiveness than permission" sort of scenario.  Put yourself in their shoes-- european-descended people are responsible for untold suffering for your people, and have assured you that this tiny bit of land is yours, and inviolate.  But here comes a guy who figures he can go wherever he wants.  It might even be worse if you start flashing money around.  It's a story many people you'd be encountering would find all too familiar.

The best way to find yourself on (non-casino) reservation land is to make a human connection with someone who lives there, and express genuine respect and curiosity about the culture.  Probably the worst way is to try to "wander in" or buy your way in.

No offense intended to you at all, just trying to highlight some very sensitive and painful cultural issues that require one to tread very carefully.

Edit to add: There *are* a number of reservations that welcome visitors, but most of those restrict access to certain areas.  Be careful to respect the boundaries that are set, and remember that for all intents and purposes, you are in another country, and should act accordingly.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 11:11:31 PM by iamlindoro »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2015, 04:46:49 AM »
Thanks for the replies, hope to get differences of opinion, but you are probably right.  I have nothing but the highest respect for Native Americans, I would hope to use the experience to teach my children about history and at the same time bring them closer to nature.  The only thing about the movie that really applies is that there are two attractive girls doing just that.  Like any movie, for me at least, I usually spend my time thinking about many other things while the fictional narrative plays out.  I'm in no way endorsing this movie, it was really bad, just glad to have a phone and an internet connection while I was watching it!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 06:08:55 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

Retire-Canada

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2015, 06:51:28 AM »

No offense intended to you at all, just trying to highlight some very sensitive and painful cultural issues that require one to tread very carefully.

Yes. I've worked on reserves in Canada a fair bit over the last 20yrs. I would not trespass. The reaction will be hostile.

The term you are looking for is cultural genocide. It's grime and the folks that are left behind are not inclined to tolerate fools gladly.

If you really feel that a specific location is important to you and you want to visit it you can call the reservation office and start a dialogue. Show some respect and understanding about the land you want to spend time on. You might get a positive response.

If not move on.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2015, 06:58:07 AM »
This sounds like touring Cuba. The economic version of rubbernecking at a bad wreck on the highway.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2015, 07:09:13 AM »
Yeah, that would be bad if I build this up as some fantastic experience like hiking the National Parks only to be attacked by a drunk individual in the middle of the night.  I really don't know much about reservations, but thought it could be a positive experience.  I will still look in to making contact just to see what the options are.

Russ

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2015, 07:56:39 AM »
So my question really is, what does it take to live on 'native lands'?  Could I really just show up and set up camp, maybe with a really nice tee-pee...

Why do you need to go to a reservation? You are probably already living on someone's "native land" as it is. Karankawa or Akokisa to be precise.

It seems like you already have an idea set in your head about how this is going to go. I hope it all works out for you as it seems your intentions are at least not harmful, if maybe a bit misguided. But don't be surprised if it doesn't. Imagine if someone asked for a tour of your house, then stole your wallet on the way out. Except instead of "house" and "stole your wallet" it's "land" and "killed your family". Would you let them back in?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 07:58:34 AM by Russ »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2015, 08:28:24 AM »
So my question really is, what does it take to live on 'native lands'?  Could I really just show up and set up camp, maybe with a really nice tee-pee...

Why do you need to go to a reservation? You are probably already living on someone's "native land" as it is. Karankawa or Akokisa to be precise.

It seems like you already have an idea set in your head about how this is going to go. I hope it all works out for you as it seems your intentions are at least not harmful, if maybe a bit misguided. But don't be surprised if it doesn't. Imagine if someone asked for a tour of your house, then stole your wallet on the way out. Except instead of "house" and "stole your wallet" it's "land" and "killed your family". Would you let them back in?

Yikes.  I actually did not have an idea about how it would go, watching the movie (and probably too many Simpsons episodes) made me want to ask 'the internet' to see how far off the mark pop culture is.  I am not culturally insensitive, I'm fully aware that Native Americans have every reason to think a white guy is up to no good showing up on their sovereign soil.  But on the other hand, I would be with my family camping, not showing up in an RV with the stereo turned up and a cooler full of beer.

Growing up, I was deeply moved when I was introduced to Squanto, Pocahontas (not the Disney version), and Tecumseh.  Native Americans had it right, living with the land and nature, and I wanted to come up with a similar way to get my children to appreciate their values.  That was all.   

Any other ideas about a good way to bring this history to life?  Just reading about it on Wikipedia doesn't seem to do this history justice.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 08:40:16 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

Retire-Canada

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2015, 08:43:09 AM »
Yeah, that would be bad if I build this up as some fantastic experience like hiking the National Parks only to be attacked by a drunk individual in the middle of the night.

So there aren't drunks in National Park camp grounds? Stereotype people often?

Louis the Cat

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2015, 08:47:42 AM »
I think some very good points have been made and wonder why visiting National Parks wouldn't do what you're looking for? They can be incredibly crowded, I grant you and certain parks (Grand Canyon, for example) really can't be visited in a wild way without a very specific set of skills that would be unlikely in young children (strenuous backpacking, rock climbing, etc). However, the National Parks afford the opportunity to visit the most beautiful land in the country without being culturally insensitive (for the most part). Once you're done with the parks, you can move on to National Monuments, National Forests and BLM lands, all of which can be visited without treading (anymore than we already have) on native cultures and lands.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2015, 08:49:57 AM »
@Vikb Holy crap, I was not stereotyping Native Americans, I was only going off of what someone else said.

Quote
modern problems affecting many reservations such as substance abuse

Of course I'm sure there are drunk people at National Parks, I just haven't done that either.  I do almost all of my camping through Boy Scouts. 

swick

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2015, 08:58:03 AM »
Any other ideas about a good way to bring this history to life?  Just reading about it on Wikipedia doesn't seem to do this history justice.

Many Bands (at least in Canada) offer friendship centers, interpretive centres/villages, museums. In Kamloops, BC the Secwepemc operate a museum and heritage park that includes the opportunity of touring the residential school with one of the survivors.

There are LOTS of options for learning the history without just showing up on their land without permission.

There are some bands which are progressive and very open. There are some I, as a women without native heritage, were not allowed to enter, even with an armed escort as it was just too dangerous.

But you know - just reaching out goes a long ways. One of the highlights of my previous job was putting together our communities first officially recognized Aboriginal Day Celebration. We were able to work with three local communities and we worked with the elders to put on an interpretive village for the community and the school kids. It went further in establishing relations with the communities then any 'political" olive branches ever had.

If you really care about learning the history, reach out. The worst that will happen is someone will say no, then try with someone else.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2015, 09:03:33 AM »
Thanks for the helpful comments swick.  I totally went about this discussion the wrong way, but I was naive.  Even reading through it makes me cringe a bit now that I'm a little more educated about the reality of it.  As I tried to explain, most of my perceptions have been influenced by a movie and Simpsons episodes. 

iamlindoro

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2015, 09:04:57 AM »
@Vikb Holy crap, I was not stereotyping Native Americans, I was only going off of what someone else said.

Quote
modern problems affecting many reservations such as substance abuse

Of course I'm sure there are drunk people at National Parks, I just haven't done that either.  I do almost all of my camping through Boy Scouts.

I want to clarify that what I was trying to explain was that life on the reservation isn't what you might imagine it would be.  Many (trying not to over-generalize) are grappling with real problems amongst their people like depression, substance abuse, extreme poverty, and other conditions that make it a very charged situation for a non-resident to walk in to expecting it to be anything like a national park, in general.  Depending on the feelings of anyone you might encounter, you might rightly or wrongly symbolize much of the history that led the people who live there to their present, often grim, life.

Make no mistake: native peoples have a rich and beautiful history and culture.  It's just nothing like anything you might see in a film that romanticizes their present condition.  Life is often hard, sad, and short on many reservations.  My experience is with some of the poorest in the US, without resources like casinos or other gambling to help support the nation.  Even for nations with gambling and a fair amount of wealth, there are legacies of generations of people with little or no opportunity that lead to increases in some of the things mentioned above.  Obviously there are no absolutes, but better to consider the factors that surround a place before you barge in.  That's all.

music lover

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2015, 09:31:53 AM »
Growing up, I was deeply moved when I was introduced to Squanto, Pocahontas (not the Disney version), and Tecumseh.  Native Americans had it right, living with the land and nature, and I wanted to come up with a similar way to get my children to appreciate their values.  That was all.

The romanticism of an ideal life living with the land and nature included a lot of hardship, a short life expectancy, high childhood death rate, periods of starvation, a very limited and often poor diet, lack of medical care, etc.

As the saying goes...the stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.

littlebird

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2015, 09:33:04 AM »
I think you'd find that many reservations are less wild and natural than any national park. They mostly look like small towns or rural areas. Native people are not stuck in the past, living life exactly as their ancestors did 100's of years ago any more than you. I'd hazard the guess that more white people (mostly misguided hippies) live in tipis than Native people do.

mozar

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2015, 02:48:06 PM »
Hey I have an idea. You could visit a reenactment village. There are some that will show you how native americans lived in the 17 th century. They will wear the typical clothing and and show you how they lived day to day. I was just watching a video about it. Google kirsten dirkson.

Sid Hoffman

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2015, 03:39:08 PM »
The romanticism of an ideal life living with the land and nature included a lot of hardship, a short life expectancy, high childhood death rate, periods of starvation, a very limited and often poor diet, lack of medical care, etc.

As the saying goes...the stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.

THIS.  Furthermore, do any of you actually live near native lands?  A friend of mine lived in a town here that borders one of the many reservations and they're basically known for being lawless trash dumps with people dying of alcohol and obesity related illnesses while living in single-wide trailers and never working because the reservation's share of casino profits and federal government pay them enough to never have to work.  It's a cruel and sad life.

A quick search seems to indicate it's no different in the midwest from what I've seen in the southwest.

music lover

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Re: "Fishing Naked"
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2015, 05:28:12 PM »
The romanticism of an ideal life living with the land and nature included a lot of hardship, a short life expectancy, high childhood death rate, periods of starvation, a very limited and often poor diet, lack of medical care, etc.

As the saying goes...the stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.

THIS.  Furthermore, do any of you actually live near native lands?  A friend of mine lived in a town here that borders one of the many reservations and they're basically known for being lawless trash dumps with people dying of alcohol and obesity related illnesses while living in single-wide trailers and never working because the reservation's share of casino profits and federal government pay them enough to never have to work.  It's a cruel and sad life.

A quick search seems to indicate it's no different in the midwest from what I've seen in the southwest.

Reserves are much the same up here...but even if they weren't, modern conveniences exist for a reason. Living in a tent/teepee is not so bad during nice weather in summer, but it sucks when it's -30 and there is no indoor plumbing.

The times were ALWAYS worse in the past. It is a fact that today's welfare recipients live better than kings did 200 years ago. My parents grew up with outhouses...on the Canadian prairies where it gets to -40. No one in the past had central heating/AC, running water, fresh fruit and vegetables in winter, indoor plumbing, 24 hour grocery stores, paved roads, bus service...the list goes on and on.

I'm pretty sure the movie you saw showed some happy native kids playing on a nice summer day with content adults relaxing nearby, but I will also bet it didn't show the pile of human waste behind the tepees, or the people picking lice out of their hair.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 05:30:05 PM by music lover »