Author Topic: Young people don't buy cars because "They’re narcissistic. Apathetic. Pampered."  (Read 47052 times)

Jamesqf

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Plus the ability to associate with people who aren't white is nice!

You know, that may be the most unthinkingly racist statement I've seen since the days of George Wallace and Malcolm X.  First, it assumes that non-white people don't live in rural areas - utterly false, as reference to census data will show.  Second, there's the blanket assumption that non-white people are fundamentally different in anything but melanin content.

kolorado

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Plus the ability to associate with people who aren't white is nice!

You know, that may be the most unthinkingly racist statement I've seen since the days of George Wallace and Malcolm X.  First, it assumes that non-white people don't live in rural areas - utterly false, as reference to census data will show.  Second, there's the blanket assumption that non-white people are fundamentally different in anything but melanin content.

Thank you! I was almost rendered speechless by the comment and wanted to give the writer the benefit of the doubt but it irked me too. :/

NYD3030

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Plus the ability to associate with people who aren't white is nice!

You know, that may be the most unthinkingly racist statement I've seen since the days of George Wallace and Malcolm X.  First, it assumes that non-white people don't live in rural areas - utterly false, as reference to census data will show.  Second, there's the blanket assumption that non-white people are fundamentally different in anything but melanin content.

According to Census 2000, rural areas are  81.9% white, compared to 69.1% in the nation as a whole, meaning urban areas must be considerably less than 69.1%.  Additionally, 9 of 10 rural African Americans live in the South so the rural composition of places like Michigan, where I grew up, is more like 88.4% white .  I didn't say there are "NO" non-white people in suburbs/rural parts of the country, but there are way fewer.  And in my experience there is a huuuuuuuuge difference between having an Asian Indian family in town and having an Asian Indian neighborhood packed with restaurants, grocers, civic organizations, clothing stores, book sellers, bars and clubs. 

Census 2010 data doesn't appear to be totally available for this type of thing yet, or else I can't find it in my three minute googlethon.

Finally, there are a huge number of people who would be extremely offended to hear you reduce their cultural and ethnic heritage to nothing by saying there is no difference between them and white Americans.  Embedded in your assumption is that everyone is just like you; they are not, and there is a lot to learn from experiencing their culture, which cannot be readily done in a place that is 88% white.  "I don't see race" and "everyone is the same" are the last bastions of white racism.

http://216.92.48.246/pubs/RacePlaceandHousing/RacePlace&Housing_Race&Ethnicity.pdf

dboyer

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Sure, if you're so unfortunate as to have to live in an urban area, streetcars (or other mass transit) will get you to work and back just fine.
What is so unfortunate about urban areas, if you don't mind expanding?

FYI, you can't just pretend white flight isn't A Thing just because you think it sounds racist to point it out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight  It also probably is worth pointing out that many urban areas in the US are de facto segregated as well, but baby steps I suppose.

brewer12345

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Plus the ability to associate with people who aren't white is nice!

You know, that may be the most unthinkingly racist statement I've seen since the days of George Wallace and Malcolm X.  First, it assumes that non-white people don't live in rural areas - utterly false, as reference to census data will show.  Second, there's the blanket assumption that non-white people are fundamentally different in anything but melanin content.

According to Census 2000, rural areas are  81.9% white, compared to 69.1% in the nation as a whole, meaning urban areas must be considerably less than 69.1%.  Additionally, 9 of 10 rural African Americans live in the South so the rural composition of places like Michigan, where I grew up, is more like 88.4% white .  I didn't say there are "NO" non-white people in suburbs/rural parts of the country, but there are way fewer.  And in my experience there is a huuuuuuuuge difference between having an Asian Indian family in town and having an Asian Indian neighborhood packed with restaurants, grocers, civic organizations, clothing stores, book sellers, bars and clubs. 

Census 2010 data doesn't appear to be totally available for this type of thing yet, or else I can't find it in my three minute googlethon.

Finally, there are a huge number of people who would be extremely offended to hear you reduce their cultural and ethnic heritage to nothing by saying there is no difference between them and white Americans.  Embedded in your assumption is that everyone is just like you; they are not, and there is a lot to learn from experiencing their culture, which cannot be readily done in a place that is 88% white.  "I don't see race" and "everyone is the same" are the last bastions of white racism.

http://216.92.48.246/pubs/RacePlaceandHousing/RacePlace&Housing_Race&Ethnicity.pdf

Hey, you are the racist poster that brought up the topic in the first place.  Is there some reason you felt the need to do so?

NYD3030

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For Census 2010 I did find this map, which, while it isn't a report, does let you click around by county to see places like rural Michigan, where it's pretty common to have 25,000 white people in a county and 250 non-white.

http://www.census.gov/2010census/popmap/

NYD3030

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Plus the ability to associate with people who aren't white is nice!

You know, that may be the most unthinkingly racist statement I've seen since the days of George Wallace and Malcolm X.  First, it assumes that non-white people don't live in rural areas - utterly false, as reference to census data will show.  Second, there's the blanket assumption that non-white people are fundamentally different in anything but melanin content.

According to Census 2000, rural areas are  81.9% white, compared to 69.1% in the nation as a whole, meaning urban areas must be considerably less than 69.1%.  Additionally, 9 of 10 rural African Americans live in the South so the rural composition of places like Michigan, where I grew up, is more like 88.4% white .  I didn't say there are "NO" non-white people in suburbs/rural parts of the country, but there are way fewer.  And in my experience there is a huuuuuuuuge difference between having an Asian Indian family in town and having an Asian Indian neighborhood packed with restaurants, grocers, civic organizations, clothing stores, book sellers, bars and clubs. 

Census 2010 data doesn't appear to be totally available for this type of thing yet, or else I can't find it in my three minute googlethon.

Finally, there are a huge number of people who would be extremely offended to hear you reduce their cultural and ethnic heritage to nothing by saying there is no difference between them and white Americans.  Embedded in your assumption is that everyone is just like you; they are not, and there is a lot to learn from experiencing their culture, which cannot be readily done in a place that is 88% white.  "I don't see race" and "everyone is the same" are the last bastions of white racism.

http://216.92.48.246/pubs/RacePlaceandHousing/RacePlace&Housing_Race&Ethnicity.pdf

Hey, you are the racist poster that brought up the topic in the first place.  Is there some reason you felt the need to do so?

Yes.  Cultural diversity is an advantage of living in the city, and it doesn't exist to a significant degree outside of it.  Plus, at least around Detroit, bashing "urban areas" is code for bashing African Americans.

I think this is the first time in my life I've been accused of being a racist because I want to live near people of other races and ethnicities... bwa ha ha!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 12:57:26 PM by NYD3030 »

dboyer

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I think this is the first time in my life I've been accused of being a racist because I want to live near people of other races and ethnicities... bwa ha ha!

Urban areas aren't a sure-fire solution for diversity either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Chicago
Specifically:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Race_and_ethnicity_Chicago.png

NYD3030

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I think this is the first time in my life I've been accused of being a racist because I want to live near people of other races and ethnicities... bwa ha ha!

Urban areas aren't a sure-fire solution for diversity either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Chicago
Specifically:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Race_and_ethnicity_Chicago.png

Oh I'm well aware, I lived in Chicago for four and a half years.  But my zip code, 60626, was (at the time at least, don't know about now) the most ethnically diverse in the US.  I'm definitely not saying that city living is kumbaya racial harmony, but there is at least the opportunity to meet people from other places and with different life experiences.  Where I grew up that was not the case.

dboyer

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Oh I'm well aware, I lived in Chicago for four and a half years.  But my zip code, 60626, was (at the time at least, don't know about now) the most ethnically diverse in the US.  I'm definitely not saying that city living is kumbaya racial harmony, but there is at least the opportunity to meet people from other places and with different life experiences.  Where I grew up that was not the case.

Well there is nothing about a diverse neighborhood that a little gentrification won't fix.

I'm still curious what Jamesqf meant by:
Sure, if you're so unfortunate as to have to live in an urban area, streetcars (or other mass transit) will get you to work and back just fine.
Jumping to racial implications misses any other urban-phobias that we could have dragged out of him first.

brewer12345

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Plus the ability to associate with people who aren't white is nice!

You know, that may be the most unthinkingly racist statement I've seen since the days of George Wallace and Malcolm X.  First, it assumes that non-white people don't live in rural areas - utterly false, as reference to census data will show.  Second, there's the blanket assumption that non-white people are fundamentally different in anything but melanin content.

According to Census 2000, rural areas are  81.9% white, compared to 69.1% in the nation as a whole, meaning urban areas must be considerably less than 69.1%.  Additionally, 9 of 10 rural African Americans live in the South so the rural composition of places like Michigan, where I grew up, is more like 88.4% white .  I didn't say there are "NO" non-white people in suburbs/rural parts of the country, but there are way fewer.  And in my experience there is a huuuuuuuuge difference between having an Asian Indian family in town and having an Asian Indian neighborhood packed with restaurants, grocers, civic organizations, clothing stores, book sellers, bars and clubs. 

Census 2010 data doesn't appear to be totally available for this type of thing yet, or else I can't find it in my three minute googlethon.

Finally, there are a huge number of people who would be extremely offended to hear you reduce their cultural and ethnic heritage to nothing by saying there is no difference between them and white Americans.  Embedded in your assumption is that everyone is just like you; they are not, and there is a lot to learn from experiencing their culture, which cannot be readily done in a place that is 88% white.  "I don't see race" and "everyone is the same" are the last bastions of white racism.

http://216.92.48.246/pubs/RacePlaceandHousing/RacePlace&Housing_Race&Ethnicity.pdf

Hey, you are the racist poster that brought up the topic in the first place.  Is there some reason you felt the need to do so?

Yes.  Cultural diversity is an advantage of living in the city, and it doesn't exist to a significant degree outside of it.  Plus, at least around Detroit, bashing "urban areas" is code for bashing African Americans.

I think this is the first time in my life I've been accused of being a racist because I want to live near people of other races and ethnicities... bwa ha ha!

Does that giant chip on your should get heavy sometimes?

Jamesqf

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I didn't say there are "NO" non-white people in suburbs/rural parts of the country, but there are way fewer.

True, your statement implied that you would be unable to associate with non-white people in a rural area.  I assumed that the reason you thought that was that you believed there would be none there.  Maybe I was too charitable, since the only other reasons I can think of reflect poorly on your personality.  I've also found that it is far easier to get to actually know people in rural areas, rather than in cities where they're just passing faces in the crowd.

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And in my experience there is a huuuuuuuuge difference between having an Asian Indian family in town and having an Asian Indian neighborhood packed with restaurants, grocers, civic organizations, clothing stores, book sellers, bars and clubs.

Still clinging to that assumption of "town", I see :-)  But yes, there IS a difference: it's called overcrowding, and applies whatever the race or ethnicity of the people.

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Finally, there are a huge number of people who would be extremely offended to hear you reduce their cultural and ethnic heritage to nothing by saying there is no difference between them and white Americans.

As offended as an acquaintance of mine, 3rd or 4th generation American  of Asian ancestry, is when she's asked what country she's from?  (Stockton)  Or FTM, where's the difference in cultural diversity between your Indian immigrant family, and my Lithuanian immigrant neighbors?  (Who are quite a bit whiter than I am :-))

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Embedded in your assumption is that everyone is just like you; they are not, and there is a lot to learn from experiencing their culture, which cannot be readily done in a place that is 88% white.

As above, cultural differences aren't tied to race.  Everyone is not like me (in fact, few people are, since I'm not from a mainstream American cultural background - for instance, I'd never eaten in a restaurant until I went off to college), but those differences have very little to do with race - and what connection there is is only a product of environment, not inherent.  I've known a few black people whose life experiences were quite similar to mine (geeks are pretty much the the same everywhere), and many, many whites whose backgrounds (and current lifestyles) seem as exotically different as any Asian or African culture.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 02:09:42 PM by Jamesqf »

NYD3030

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Oh I'm well aware, I lived in Chicago for four and a half years.  But my zip code, 60626, was (at the time at least, don't know about now) the most ethnically diverse in the US.  I'm definitely not saying that city living is kumbaya racial harmony, but there is at least the opportunity to meet people from other places and with different life experiences.  Where I grew up that was not the case.

Well there is nothing about a diverse neighborhood that a little gentrification won't fix.

I'm still curious what Jamesqf meant by:
Sure, if you're so unfortunate as to have to live in an urban area, streetcars (or other mass transit) will get you to work and back just fine.
Jumping to racial implications misses any other urban-phobias that we could have dragged out of him first.

I'm sure there are some choice ones in there.  If you look at my post that started this mess, the comment about diversity was a one-liner.  He didn't address the real topic, which is why people wouldn't want to own a car.  Seems to have something against public transit...

Jamesqf

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What is so unfortunate about urban areas, if you don't mind expanding?

What is so unfortunate about a feedlot, if you happen to be a cow?

You spend most of your life indoors, divorced from any contact with the natural world.  Outside, you walk on pavement instead of dirt or grass, breathing exhaust fumes & other urban effluvia.  You're constantly hemmed in by crowds of people, most of them making noise of some sort or other, which combines to make a constant din.  Unless you're wealthy, the only place to find solitude is your caustrophobic little stall apartment...

  Seems to have something against public transit...

I think you misread my statement.  Public transit is a great thing when you have sizeable numbers of people wanting to get from point A to point B at about the same time.  (Conditions that are likely to exist mainly in (sub)urban areas, no?)  But can you imagine a cost-effective public transit system that would get me & the dogs to a trailhead somewhere in the Sierra this afternoon, then be there to pick us up when we return?

I'll also mention that I can, and do, get to work with the aid of a few electrons, thus bypassing any personal need for mass transit.

PS: Just a thought to get back on the OT of millenials not buying cars.  How much do you suppose the typical millenial spends on tattoos, piercings, and similar forms of self-mutilation?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 02:07:55 PM by Jamesqf »

dboyer

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What is so unfortunate about urban areas, if you don't mind expanding?

What is so unfortunate about a feedlot, if you happen to be a cow?

You spend most of your life indoors, divorced from any contact with the natural world.  Outside, you walk on pavement instead of dirt or grass, breathing exhaust fumes & other urban effluvia.  You're constantly hemmed in by crowds of people, most of them making noise of some sort or other, which combines to make a constant din.  Unless you're wealthy, the only place to find solitude is your caustrophobic little stall apartment...

  Seems to have something against public transit...

I think you misread my statement.  Public transit is a great thing when you have sizeable numbers of people wanting to get from point A to point B at about the same time.  (Conditions that are likely to exist mainly in (sub)urban areas, no?)  But can you imagine a cost-effective public transit system that would get me & the dogs to a trailhead somewhere in the Sierra this afternoon, then be there to pick us up when we return?

I'll also mention that I can, and do, get to work with the aid of a few electrons, thus bypassing any personal need for mass transit.

PS: Just a thought to get back on the OT of millenials not buying cars.  How much do you suppose the typical millenial spends on tattoos, piercings, and similar forms of self-mutilation?

What is so unfortunate about living in the company of people, if you're a person?

A lot of your complaints are a matter of taste.  You mention the small apartment as if a large apartment would be better.  You mention a cost-effective public transit system (made possible by a critical density of people) as if it's a bad thing.  I grew up in an extremely rural area, but am very happy with how green/natural my particular urban habitat is.  I don't have a car currently, but it's a short ride out to several amazing wilderness areas, and if I wanted to commute to my job, plenty of rural areas to settle in.  Even within the city though, there are plenty of secluded areas to get away in if you know where to look.  I think you're discounting a very normal human experience - walking through a crowded open-air market enjoying the 'din', the smells, the sounds, and yes, the crowds, can be very enjoyable with the right mindset.

Be honest though, how often do you need to pack up the dogs and go to a trailhead this afternoon?  How about the flip side - living in a rural area but are unable to do anything social without driving?  There are tradeoffs either way, I guess.

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PS: Just a thought to get back on the OT of millenials not buying cars.  How much do you suppose the typical millenial spends on tattoos, piercings, and similar forms of self-mutilation?
Tattoos aren't that damned expensive, you sound like a real fun guy.  Sure, they might cost some $$, but at least they last :P  I content that tattoos and piercings aren't any worse than high heels as far as self-mutilation goes, and can at least have aesthetic appeal.  You can easily find people who take it excess, but that isn't a reasonable way to judge an activity.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/baby-boomers-jobs-younger-workers-214210886.html
Is it too early (or too late, heh) to blame millennial's money troubles on baby boomers?  If they hadn't lived far beyond their means housing prices etc wouldn't have been pumped as far in the first place and they could retire without working forever, holding onto jobs that could otherwise be filled by younger workers entering the workforce.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 02:22:43 PM by dboyer »

brewer12345

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What is so unfortunate about urban areas, if you don't mind expanding?

What is so unfortunate about a feedlot, if you happen to be a cow?

You spend most of your life indoors, divorced from any contact with the natural world.  Outside, you walk on pavement instead of dirt or grass, breathing exhaust fumes & other urban effluvia.  You're constantly hemmed in by crowds of people, most of them making noise of some sort or other, which combines to make a constant din.  Unless you're wealthy, the only place to find solitude is your caustrophobic little stall apartment...

  Seems to have something against public transit...

I think you misread my statement.  Public transit is a great thing when you have sizeable numbers of people wanting to get from point A to point B at about the same time.  (Conditions that are likely to exist mainly in (sub)urban areas, no?)  But can you imagine a cost-effective public transit system that would get me & the dogs to a trailhead somewhere in the Sierra this afternoon, then be there to pick us up when we return?

I'll also mention that I can, and do, get to work with the aid of a few electrons, thus bypassing any personal need for mass transit.

PS: Just a thought to get back on the OT of millenials not buying cars.  How much do you suppose the typical millenial spends on tattoos, piercings, and similar forms of self-mutilation?

I am quite happy for all the cattle to stay in highly urbanized areas: leaves more space for the rest of us.

As for the tattoos, piercings, etc., who knows?  The whole idea is so distasteful I would rather not hear the details or costs.

dboyer

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I am quite happy for all the cattle to stay in highly urbanized areas: leaves more space for the rest of us.

As for the tattoos, piercings, etc., who knows?  The whole idea is so distasteful I would rather not hear the details or costs.

Cities are full of young people - they don't listen to their elders, probably like rock and roll, and some even have tattoos.  Gosh, I bet they even have premarital sex!  Our poor civilization....

For reals though, the neatest tattoos I've ever seen was a pair of full sleeves on a coworker who was... ~50ish, maybe?  You could trace his life - both accomplishments and failures, happiness and sadness, comedy and tragedy, up and down his arms.  It was pretty awesome imho, even if I'm not into tattoos and have none myself.  But you know, those damned kids...

brewer12345

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I am quite happy for all the cattle to stay in highly urbanized areas: leaves more space for the rest of us.

As for the tattoos, piercings, etc., who knows?  The whole idea is so distasteful I would rather not hear the details or costs.

Cities are full of young people - they don't listen to their elders, probably like rock and roll, and some even have tattoos.  Gosh, I bet they even have premarital sex!  Our poor civilization....

For reals though, the neatest tattoos I've ever seen was a pair of full sleeves on a coworker who was... ~50ish, maybe?  You could trace his life - both accomplishments and failures, happiness and sadness, comedy and tragedy, up and down his arms.  It was pretty awesome imho, even if I'm not into tattoos and have none myself.  But you know, those damned kids...

Frankly, I can't stand to even look at people with obvious tattoos or piercings.  Disgusting.

dboyer

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Frankly, I can't stand to even look at people with obvious tattoos or piercings.  Disgusting.

The one I hate is bridge piercings on people who have glasses - the glasses never seem to sit right with the piercing in the way.  Which is only a small part of my hate.  If you're going to put a barbell there, why not make the piercing magnetic and use it to stick the glasses to your face?  No more temples, just good old fashioned science.

EDIT:  This part of the article is gold:
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It’s as if America’s youth are rejecting social conventions that generations have held in common for decades.
Look!  Decades of tradition!  Car culture is a new tradition, but it is tradition none the less.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 03:03:51 PM by dboyer »

NYD3030

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I can't wait to see what kind of body modifications I'll hate when I'm old and am down on the kids.  Fingers crossed that it's skin color gene modification, and not dirty needle tattoos outside the thunder dome...

Jamesqf

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Be honest though, how often do you need to pack up the dogs and go to a trailhead this afternoon?

Pretty much every afternoon, unless I go ride the horse instead :-)  That's part of the point of working for myself: I set my own hours, so I can do that.

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How about the flip side - living in a rural area but are unable to do anything social without driving?

Or not being able to do anything social because you live in a city, and the few of those millions of people you actually know are further away (in travel time, if not straight-line distance) than they would be in a rural area?

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Tattoos aren't that damned expensive, you sound like a real fun guy.  Sure, they might cost some $$, but at least they last :P

I don't know for sure*, not being in the market myself, but I've heard that they can get fairly expensive.  And of course in ten or twenty years, you'll be wanting to pay a plastic surgeon to have them removed.

(* Edit: OK, made me curious.  Per Google, a full-sleeve tattoo can cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $2500.  Figure both arms, and maybe some body work too, and it could add up to more than I've ever paid for a car.  Then piercings and whatever you put in the holes could pay for several years registration, insurance, and gas money...)

I think, though, that you miss a larger point here.  Animals confined in conditions that offer little external stimulation often engage in self-mutilation.  It seems humans aren't all that different.  (Though I do agree about high heels, and could have added it to my list if I'd thought.) 

I am quite happy for all the cattle to stay in highly urbanized areas: leaves more space for the rest of us.

Well, it's a bit of a dilemma.  My selfish side is glad they stay there (and that I'm not one of them), but my altruistic side does not rejoice in their suffering.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 06:33:04 PM by Jamesqf »

AllChoptUp

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Can I just put in a vote for bringing back street cars?  I want to live in a community with street cars!

Thanks :)

exranger06

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dragoncar

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Can I just put in a vote for bringing back street cars?  I want to live in a community with street cars!

Thanks :)

Come to SF.  We are buying old streetcars from all over the world, restoring them, and putting them into service.

http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/

Undecided

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I am quite happy for all the cattle to stay in highly urbanized areas: leaves more space for the rest of us.

As for the tattoos, piercings, etc., who knows?  The whole idea is so distasteful I would rather not hear the details or costs.

Cities are full of young people - they don't listen to their elders, probably like rock and roll, and some even have tattoos

Does anyone younger than Gen X listen to rock and roll? And even a lot of Gen X set it aside.

Crash87

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I am quite happy for all the cattle to stay in highly urbanized areas: leaves more space for the rest of us.

As for the tattoos, piercings, etc., who knows?  The whole idea is so distasteful I would rather not hear the details or costs.

1. City living is great. I am within a 5 minute bike ride of multiple friends, grocery stores, bars, and parks that are full of attractive college aged girls.

2. I don't get why some people knock tattoos so much. Tattoos are no more a form of self mutilation than obesity. Live and let live.

brewer12345

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I am quite happy for all the cattle to stay in highly urbanized areas: leaves more space for the rest of us.

As for the tattoos, piercings, etc., who knows?  The whole idea is so distasteful I would rather not hear the details or costs.

1. City living is great. I am within a 5 minute bike ride of multiple friends, grocery stores, bars, and parks that are full of attractive college aged girls.

2. I don't get why some people knock tattoos so much. Tattoos are no more a form of self mutilation than obesity. Live and let live.

I grew up in NYC.  I know all about city living.  Enjoy, I want no more of it.

Tattoos are a grotesque form of self mutilation, IMO.  But we live in a free society so de gustibus non disputandam.  But as a hiring manager, I would never pick a candidate with visible tattoos or piercings.

sheepstache

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Yes!  I'm 32.  My husband is 34.  So I'm a millenial while he's not.  That must be why I refuse to get a driver's license and he in turn gets mad at me for it, because it's a sign that I'm narcissistic, apathetic, and pampered.

Jamesqf

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I grew up in NYC.  I know all about city living.

If you had been sick all your life, could you really comprehend what it is like to be well?  Or would you come to accept your debility as the normal state of affairs?

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I don't get why some people knock tattoos so much. Tattoos are no more a form of self mutilation than obesity. Live and let live.

Because such forms of self-mutilation are symptomatic.  And obesity IS another form of self-mutilation (as is anorexia): ever see an obese wild animal?

As for the idea that they're permanent artwork, tastes change.  I would not particularly want to decorate my current house with the posters &c that I thumbtacked to the walls of my first apartments.

wepner

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For all the people making tons of money on this site in the tech industry, the quote function on this site seems to be difficult for quite a few people to master...


grantmeaname

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For all the people making tons of money on this site in the tech industry, the quote function on this site seems to be difficult for quite a few people to master...
F'reals.

The_Captain

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Can I just put in a vote for bringing back street cars?  I want to live in a community with street cars!

Thanks :)

Come join us in Toronto, they're a major part of the backbone of our transit.

nktokyo

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Tats are cool. I'd love to get one except I live in Japan and they don't go down well over here.

dragoncar

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For all the people making tons of money on this site in the tech industry, the quote function on this site seems to be difficult for quite a few people to master...[/quote
F'reals.
[/quote

I don't know what you are talking about

Crash87

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I grew up in a rural area and it was amazingly boring. STL is much more fun.

I don't know the details and I hear it's expensive, but my understanding is that you can get tattoos removed. I'm also pretty sure there are a number of old tattooed people that don't regret getting tattooed.

Brewer, you actually discriminate against tattooed people? What type of work are you in/hire for?

Bakari

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Plus the ability to associate with people who aren't white is nice!

  Second, there's the blanket assumption that non-white people are fundamentally different in anything but melanin content.

For once I agree with James!

This is exactly why I hate the term "people of color" so much, as though all non-white people are exactly the same.  It automatically implies that white people are the default standard, and deserve a special category of their own.



Finally, there are a huge number of people who would be extremely offended to hear you reduce their cultural and ethnic heritage to nothing by saying there is no difference between them and white Americans.

I know that you mean well, and that many other people share your view, but I think you are actually the one reducing every non-white person's cultural and ethnic heritage to nothing.  By saying there is no differences between them.  Do I really have more in common with a fresh-off-the-boat South East Asian than I do with my white neighbor just because Xuan Tran and I both have in common that (most of) our DNA didn't originate in Europe (at least in the last few thousand years)?  For that matter, is a recent Chinese immigrant really interchangeable with a recent Caribbean immigrant?  They are not just "not white".  They are Chinese and Caribbean (respectively).




Incidentally, James, you ought to stop trying so hard to convince people of the superiority of rural areas.  If you succeed, there won't be any left.  All the city folk will flood them and they'll all turn into suburbs.

And tattoos and piercings, they are like putting Christmas decorations on the trees in a pristine forest.  You take natural beauty and make it all garish and tacky by trying to make it "more artistic" or whatever.  The forest is wonderful and perfect.  So is the human body.  Art is, at best, a pathetic human attempt to try to match the feeling of awe nature can induce.  Why take something already perfect, and cover it with art, which is merely an attempt to replicate that perfection?
I never did understand why we could look at other cultures, who stretch bone disks through their lips, bound their feet tiny, elongate their necks, cut or even sew up their sex parts, and say that is horrible and weird, and yet we don't think twice about almost all of our women punching holes through their ear lobes.  And then hanging small decorations from the holes.  Again, just like a Christmas tree!

brewer12345

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Brewer, you actually discriminate against tattooed people? What type of work are you in/hire for?

Happily, I have managed to escape being a manager in this place for the length of my 5 year sentence, but I work in a very conservative, button-down culture.  None of my coworkers have any visible tattoos of any kind and the only piercings I have ever seen are earrings on women (one per lobe).  The dress code does not go all the way to suits and ties, but my fairly dressy business casual would have me violating some aspect of the dress code pretty much every day (I am in a branch office 500 miles away from my superiors, so I get away with it).  In the home office people are routinely sent home to change their clothes in their first 6 months of employment, and a recent "mentoring" training session apparently included an HR person telling would-be mentors that it was important to instruct their mentees on the fine points of the dress code - such as the difference between peep-toed shoes (acceptable) and open-toed shoes (verboten).

As someone who was once the cause of the imposition of a dress code in another workplace (the stained shorts and T shirt that read "the way to a fisherman's heart is through his fly" were apparently the last straw), this grates on me every day.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 08:51:58 AM by brewer12345 »

Jamesqf

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For once I agree with James!

Yeah, amazing, isn't it?  And on the tattoos/piercing/foot binding (AKA high heels) too.

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This is exactly why I hate the term "people of color" so much, as though all non-white people are exactly the same.  It automatically implies that white people are the default standard, and deserve a special category of their own.

Yeah, and from the other direction too: it implies that all "white" people are exactly alike.  Now I was raised out of the mainstream(s) of "white" American culture, and have chosen to live my adult life in yet a third way, so it always irritates me when I'm lumped in with the TV-sports-watching, SUV driving white American middle class.

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Incidentally, James, you ought to stop trying so hard to convince people of the superiority of rural areas.  If you succeed, there won't be any left.  All the city folk will flood them and they'll all turn into suburbs.

Yeah, I know.  Gotta watch that altruistic streak :-)

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And tattoos and piercings, they are like putting Christmas decorations on the trees in a pristine forest.  You take natural beauty and make it all garish and tacky by trying to make it "more artistic" or whatever.

Yeah.  Even though some of it IS art (and might look good framed on a wall), the body is just not the place.  Then there's all the really crude stuff, like the common barbed wire effect around the upper arm...


grantmeaname

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Yeah, and from the other direction too: it implies that all "white" people are exactly alike.  Now I was raised out of the mainstream(s) of "white" American culture, and have chosen to live my adult life in yet a third way, so it always irritates me when I'm lumped in with the TV-sports-watching, SUV driving white American middle class.
The white Americans are not a monolithic class either. They have differing backgrounds, political and religious views, linguistic abilities, skills and talents...

Maybe the solution is to not lean so heavy on generalities, not to push the generalities on the next group.

Crash87

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a recent "mentoring" training session apparently included an HR person telling would-be mentors that it was important to instruct their mentees on the fine points of the dress code - such as the difference between peep-toed shoes (acceptable) and open-toed shoes (verboten).

That is truly insane and makes me sad for the human race.

For the record: I have no tattoos and don't care for them much. I just try not to judge people for non-logical reasons like tattoos, music tastes, race, etc.

Jamesqf

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I just try not to judge people for non-logical reasons like tattoos, music tastes, race, etc.

Why are tattoos and music tastes not valid ways to judge people?  As for instance if I want to hire intelligent people, wouldn't visible evidence that a candidate was willing to spend quite a bit of money for the privilege of sitting for hours while being stuck with needles (and without anesthetic, too!) tend to indicate that they probably are not all that intelligent?

nktokyo

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I just try not to judge people for non-logical reasons like tattoos, music tastes, race, etc.

Why are tattoos and music tastes not valid ways to judge people?  As for instance if I want to hire intelligent people, wouldn't visible evidence that a candidate was willing to spend quite a bit of money for the privilege of sitting for hours while being stuck with needles (and without anesthetic, too!) tend to indicate that they probably are not all that intelligent?

I'll wager you're not running your own business if that's how you're screening people. If you are then you're missing out on some good hires.

I do hire people and the only criteria I have about tattoos are:
a) that they can be covered up if you have to do a sales presentation
b) the content that is visible isn't offensive (racial, anti-anything etc)

Beyond that, as an employer I love it if people have an interesting story to tell. It generally indicates that they'll adapt to whatever the workplace throws at them and get along great with customers and colleagues.

unitsinc

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I just try not to judge people for non-logical reasons like tattoos, music tastes, race, etc.

Why are tattoos and music tastes not valid ways to judge people?  As for instance if I want to hire intelligent people, wouldn't visible evidence that a candidate was willing to spend quite a bit of money for the privilege of sitting for hours while being stuck with needles (and without anesthetic, too!) tend to indicate that they probably are not all that intelligent?

I work for one of the largest companies in the world. We have an exceptionally casual dress code. I wear video game shirts regularly. My boss(a male) has a pony tail down to the small of his back. Guys have ear piercings, many people have tattoos, though none visible with a long sleeve shirt. I won't drop names, but I can assure you that every single person that has visited this site knows our name and logo, and we don't suck at what we do.

Another big name, Google. Dress code: Wear clothes.
From what I understand getting a job at Google is exceptionally hard and they tend to hire only the best and brightest, and rightfully so, they also do not suck at what they do.

To posit that tattoos or piercings or manner of dress or preference of music is somehow a key indicator for intelligence is really quite sad and I hope you can learn better, you'll likely be better off for it.

Edit: To add about the body mod discussion, I understand you find them distasteful. I obviously don't agree, but I bet there is a good chance that you have an alcoholic drink once in a while. That is self mutilation in a similar way to body mods. It obviously is not permanent, but you are purposely harming your body because you enjoy some aspect of the process. And even if you don't drink, I bet you wouldn't discriminate against someone who occasionally imbibes.

Mormons view many(all?) foreign chemicals to be harming your body, such as caffeine. Something is always extreme to someone else. It makes little sense to judge things that are obviously no indicator of intelligence.

Also, I believe it was Bakari that said the body is perfect as it is. That is a tad naive and simplistic unless you are a practicing Sikh and do not cut your hair or imbibe in caffeine or alcohol. After all, your body is 100% perfect and should never be changed to suit ones preference, right? Hope everyone has 20/20 vision forever and never considers LASIK, you're removing cornea!

As for urban vs rural, it's pretty much impossible to say one is better than the other. That one is definitely a personal opinion with the only right answer being what each person prefers.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 07:53:21 PM by unitsinc »

limeandpepper

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For the record: I have no tattoos and don't care for them much. I just try not to judge people for non-logical reasons like tattoos, music tastes, race, etc.

Same, I don't have tattoos or piercings and have no inclination at all to get any for myself, but I'm surprised by the harsh stances I see here in regards to people who do. I know all types of people with tattoos, and they are more diverse than one may think. Some are often well-hidden, especially if they work in a corporate environment.

And also, +1 unitsinc.

grantmeaname

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Edit: To add about the body mod discussion, I understand you find them distasteful. I obviously don't agree, but I bet there is a good chance that you have an alcoholic drink once in a while. That is self mutilation in a similar way to body mods. It obviously is not permanent, but you are purposely harming your body because you enjoy some aspect of the process. And even if you don't drink, I bet you wouldn't discriminate against someone who occasionally imbibes.

Mormons view many(all?) foreign chemicals to be harming your body, such as caffeine. Something is always extreme to someone else. It makes little sense to judge things that are obviously no indicator of intelligence.
Moderate alcohol consumption is actually healthier than abstention. I understand what you're getting at, but that particular example only works for binge drinking.

unitsinc

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Edit: To add about the body mod discussion, I understand you find them distasteful. I obviously don't agree, but I bet there is a good chance that you have an alcoholic drink once in a while. That is self mutilation in a similar way to body mods. It obviously is not permanent, but you are purposely harming your body because you enjoy some aspect of the process. And even if you don't drink, I bet you wouldn't discriminate against someone who occasionally imbibes.

Mormons view many(all?) foreign chemicals to be harming your body, such as caffeine. Something is always extreme to someone else. It makes little sense to judge things that are obviously no indicator of intelligence.
Moderate alcohol consumption is actually healthier than abstention. I understand what you're getting at, but that particular example only works for binge drinking.

I always understood it as even drinking to very light intoxication(buzz) is enough to be bad(not that I haven't surpassed mildly buzzed a time or twelve) in the sense you're killing brain cells and making your liver quite unhappy. But I am no expert by any stretch.

dragoncar

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I always understood it as even drinking to very light intoxication(buzz) is enough to be bad(not that I haven't surpassed mildly buzzed a time or twelve) in the sense you're killing brain cells and making your liver quite unhappy. But I am no expert by any stretch.

Summary:  Moderate is 1 drink/day for females, 1-2 for men, but it's probably good to also give your liver some time off every now and then.  The benefit is increased HDL.  Saying it's "good for you" is a public health generalization -- the benefits are thought to outweigh the harms.  That doesn't mean there are no harms, but brain and liver damage are expected to be minimal at these levels.  Nevertheless, everyone is different, so calibrate for your own circumstances (e.g., family history of liver disease, low body weight, etc.).

bayescraft

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I recently discovered two (maybe more) of my coworkers also live within 6 blocks of the office.

Maybe we (all three of us are in our early-to-mid 20s, I think that means we're millennials?) don't own cars because we stopped moving so friggen far away from where we need to be every day.

[Full disclosure: they both own cars, but since I'm rocking only 4 blocks away, I do not.]

Bakari

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Also, I believe it was Bakari that said the body is perfect as it is. That is a tad naive and simplistic unless you are a practicing Sikh and do not cut your hair or imbibe in caffeine or alcohol. After all, your body is 100% perfect and should never be changed to suit ones preference, right? Hope everyone has 20/20 vision forever and never considers LASIK, you're removing cornea!

I was talking about aesthetics, silly, I think it was clear in context.  And I was describing my personal feeling towards it, not condeming everyone who does it - whether in the form of pierced ears for earrings, make-up, circumcision, or those rings that the Kayan Lahwi and South Ndebele women wear on their necks. To me its all the same thing.  I do question the cultural conformity of anyone who is willing to do permanent damage to themselves because it makes them attractive or cool, but plenty of conformists are otherwise intelligent and decent people.  I would never get one, but plenty of my friends, and even my partner has tattoos.
Not that its' relevant, but I very rarely drink alcohol, or caffeine.

I wonder how these narcissistic, apathetic, pampered kids these days are effecting the tattoo parlor industry?  Do they get more, because of their narcissism, or less, because they are too apathetic to bother?

grantmeaname

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The apathy goes away when they're intoxicated, and that seems to be when most people get tattoos as far as I can tell...

=P