Author Topic: WOW Dumb-ass Logic  (Read 11109 times)

Ottawa

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WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« on: June 11, 2014, 10:44:56 AM »
While I am ALL FOR initiatives to reduce utility bills in a household...I have to hand it to this family for "Futility thinking" not "Utility thinking"

This article is a misguided debacle from beginning to end.

http://life.nationalpost.com/2014/06/10/eco-wise-how-to-cut-utility-bills-even-as-you-double-your-house-size/?__lsa=ce2e-f03f

Dollarbill49

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 11:16:18 AM »
If I ever owned a 4,300 sq ft home, I would not want my neighbors to be within 10 or 15 feet of me, on either side, as the picture in the story displayed.

kyanamerinas

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 11:36:00 AM »
AAAAAAARRGGHHHHH!

giant 'eco homes' are a pet hate of mine. you can have all the green features you like but to me a 4,300 sqft house will never be eco unless it's for a small commune. the resources that go into building a structure that size for starters, then the ongoing resources for running, repairing and maintaining it, before we even get to how easy it is to fill any spare space with crud which is also not eco.

grr

Jamesqf

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 11:44:22 AM »
Ditto on the neighbors.  I also had a bit of a problem reconciling "heat of summer" and "Ontario".

TrMama

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 11:57:59 AM »
Highlights from the article include:

- The owner is "a financial analyst with a major bank". However, he apparently struggles with math . . .
- "the occupants of the Green House typically maintained their home during the heating seasons at 23C"  23C = 73.4F = sweltering!

No mention was made of the price difference between the 4300 sq ft home and the old 2000 sq ft home. However, the new house is still a 'great investment".


ketchup

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 11:59:10 AM »
"It's good for the environment" is a giant pet peeve of mine.  No, chances are, it's not good for the environment, it just might be less bad than an alternative.  The "eco-wash" laundry detergent isn't out there somewhere making sea otters happy and giving back massages to the rain forest.

seanc0x0

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 01:01:08 PM »
If you divide the square footage of that house by the number of occupants, each one of them would have about the same space as my house has for 3 (soon to be 4) people. I don't care how 'Green' it is, that's just plain crazy!

gimp

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 01:04:23 PM »
If I ever owned a 4,300 sq ft home, I would not want my neighbors to be within 10 or 15 feet of me, on either side, as the picture in the story displayed.

When you drive east out of El Paso on the interstate, you see desert... desert... desert... mansion... desert... desert... desert. That rancher got it right. Huge, beautiful house, a mile from the highway and twenty miles from anyone else. "Fuck your HOA."

Prairie Stash

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 01:52:01 PM »
Highlights from the article include:

- The owner is "a financial analyst with a major bank". However, he apparently struggles with math . . .
- "the occupants of the Green House typically maintained their home during the heating seasons at 23C"  23C = 73.4F = sweltering!

No mention was made of the price difference between the 4300 sq ft home and the old 2000 sq ft home. However, the new house is still a 'great investment".

It was a great investment, his return on ego was huge!

strider3700

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 02:13:54 PM »
right now housing in Ontario is viewed as the best thing ever.  "only" 50 miles from toronto single family detached homes in tear down condition are closing in on $1,000,000 in price.  Because it's only a 50 mile each way commute.

It's a giant bubble but everyone is house rich  on paper at least. 

TrMama

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 03:05:04 PM »
Quote
Among the Ryerson studys main findings: Energy use for the Green Home measured over the 18 months was 21% higher than the Energy Star Home. The difference stemmed from the fact that five people (including two children and a nanny) live in the Green Home, each spending 120 hours per week there. Only four people live in the Energy Star home, each spending 70 hours per week there.

Ummm....that's a big difference. I don't care if there's an extra person there or not. Our utility usage barely changed when we went from two to three adults for three years, then back down to two. What is that nanny doing to use so much more energy?

She's got the heat cranked up to 23 degrees C.

strider3700

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 04:01:01 PM »
using a percentage to report differences is really miss leading.   My energy use is low enough during the summer   running the dryer instead of using the clothes line makes a visible difference on the bill.  During the winter when we're heating it would barely show up as a blip.  We'd need to know how many KWH the difference actually was between the houses as well as the degree days at the two locations to have any reasonable change at making a comparison. The fact that they had a different number of people  at the two locations also means you're very unlikely to be comparing house against house and are more likely comparing personal habits of the inhabitants

EMP

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2014, 10:16:08 PM »
"It's good for the environment" is a giant pet peeve of mine.  No, chances are, it's not good for the environment, it just might be less bad than an alternative.  The "eco-wash" laundry detergent isn't out there somewhere making sea otters happy and giving back massages to the rain forest.

LOL

GrayGhost

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2014, 10:22:22 PM »
giant 'eco homes' are a pet hate of mine. you can have all the green features you like but to me a 4,300 sqft house will never be eco unless it's for a small commune. the resources that go into building a structure that size for starters, then the ongoing resources for running, repairing and maintaining it, before we even get to how easy it is to fill any spare space with crud which is also not eco.

My mom spends a lot of time and trouble washing, re-using, and recycling plastic containers... bought from restaurants that she drives to to pick up in a large minivan. We live in a house that has about 1,000 square foot of space per person, too.

Fortunately, she seems to be getting on board with things, but I think when people imply that "green" homes are just a marketing ploy, or a way to make people feel morally superior, they're onto something.

The real way to be environmentally friendly is to consume as little as you, can, especially of non-renewable resources. It doesn't matter if your house is x% more efficient than most other houses of its size if you're consuming quite a bit part of the planet.

bikebum

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2014, 11:50:04 PM »
Reminds me of Jevons Paradox.

From Wikipedia:
"In economics, the Jevons paradox is the proposition that as technology progresses, the increase in efficiency with which a resource is used tends to increase (rather than decrease) the rate of consumption of that resource."

"The issue has been re-examined by modern economists studying consumption rebound effects from improved energy efficiency. In addition to reducing the amount needed for a given use, improved efficiency lowers the relative cost of using a resource, which tends to increase the quantity of the resource demanded, potentially counteracting any savings from increased efficiency. Additionally, increased efficiency accelerates economic growth, further increasing the demand for resources. The Jevons paradox occurs when the effect from increased demand predominates, causing resource use to increase."

Also reminds me of when people say trucks get better gas mileage per pound of vehicle than smaller cars.

odput

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2014, 07:11:09 AM »
Jevon's Paradox...I think I'll have to memorize that...bloody brilliant!

Also reminds me of when people say trucks get better gas mileage per pound of vehicle than smaller cars.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard...maybe I should get a towing hitch for my car and haul around everywhere I go all my personal possessions on a trailer so my car can have the best gas mileage per pound

Oy

RetiredAt63

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2014, 08:03:42 AM »
A lot of nannies in Toronto are from the Philippines.  Just guessing, but if their nanny is, she would find 23oC pretty chilly.

Quote
Among the Ryerson studys main findings: Energy use for the Green Home measured over the 18 months was 21% higher than the Energy Star Home. The difference stemmed from the fact that five people (including two children and a nanny) live in the Green Home, each spending 120 hours per week there. Only four people live in the Energy Star home, each spending 70 hours per week there.

Ummm....that's a big difference. I don't care if there's an extra person there or not. Our utility usage barely changed when we went from two to three adults for three years, then back down to two. What is that nanny doing to use so much more energy?

She's got the heat cranked up to 23 degrees C.

chucklesmcgee

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2014, 11:55:41 PM »
AAAAAAARRGGHHHHH!

giant 'eco homes' are a pet hate of mine. you can have all the green features you like but to me a 4,300 sqft house will never be eco unless it's for a small commune. the resources that go into building a structure that size for starters, then the ongoing resources for running, repairing and maintaining it, before we even get to how easy it is to fill any spare space with crud which is also not eco.

grr

Shhh, but that's not the consumerist way. Solutions to everything involves buying more and more! More expensive hybrid cars, more expensive light bulbs, more expensive building materials, ultra-super smart themostats. God forbid you suggest people actually have smaller houses or suffer a temperature a few degrees colder or warmer than what they prefer.

bikebum

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2014, 12:17:30 AM »
Jevon's Paradox...I think I'll have to memorize that...bloody brilliant!

Also reminds me of when people say trucks get better gas mileage per pound of vehicle than smaller cars.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard...maybe I should get a towing hitch for my car and haul around everywhere I go all my personal possessions on a trailer so my car can have the best gas mileage per pound

Oy

My ride is a school bus converted into my own drive-able gym.

AJDZee

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2014, 08:10:17 AM »
The comments on that article are the best!  (mirrors what's going on in this thread - are you guys logged into NP too?? haha)

There are so many of these affluent d-bags out there.

Did I read that right... they have TWO furnaces and TWO A/C units??
I ain't no heating/cooling expert, but couldn't you create dual climate for different floors by a simple (cheaper) design of controlling the flow of heat/cool from one unit by blocking/opening vents? Might take some creativity... but gotta be better than buying and maintaining TWO sets of furnaces/ACs.

I live not too far from these guys, so rest assured MMM community, if I ever see them I will deliver a 100% Certified MMM Face Punch to Mr. & Mrs. Keras.

What pisses me off the most is these idiots walk around high and mighty thinking they're 'doing their part'

Jomar

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2014, 03:58:53 PM »
"It's good for the environment" is a giant pet peeve of mine.  No, chances are, it's not good for the environment, it just might be less bad than an alternative.  The "eco-wash" laundry detergent isn't out there somewhere making sea otters happy and giving back massages to the rain forest.

Hahahaha. Nice.

Jennifer in Ottawa

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2014, 06:29:14 PM »
The comments on that article are the best!  (mirrors what's going on in this thread - are you guys logged into NP too?? haha)

There are so many of these affluent d-bags out there.

Did I read that right... they have TWO furnaces and TWO A/C units??
I ain't no heating/cooling expert, but couldn't you create dual climate for different floors by a simple (cheaper) design of controlling the flow of heat/cool from one unit by blocking/opening vents? Might take some creativity... but gotta be better than buying and maintaining TWO sets of furnaces/ACs.

I live not too far from these guys, so rest assured MMM community, if I ever see them I will deliver a 100% Certified MMM Face Punch to Mr. & Mrs. Keras.

What pisses me off the most is these idiots walk around high and mighty thinking they're 'doing their part'

Their 'lifestyle' is ridiculous.  Let's see.

Since Dad is a financial analyst, he obviously works on Bay Street.  213 Coons Road, Richmond Hill to oh, lets say the corner of King and Bay Streets is 45.4 km according to Mapquest (that's 28 miles for our American friends). So 90 km (56 miles) per day just to get to work for him.  Each way will take 36 min on an empty road (which will only be the case the day after the apocalypse), so realistically about 75 mins for a total commuting time of 2 1/2 hours per day or 12 1/2 hours per week.

Google maps clearly shows this home on street view, but the photos were taken when the driveway was full of service vehicles.  What kind of car could he drive?  Well, MLS doesn't show any homes for sale on Coons Road, but just the other side of the park behind them, homes are for sale in the 1.2 Million range, and just down the street, you can fetch a nice crackerbox for 1.7 Mil.  So, let's assume Mr. Financial Analyst likes to keep up with the Jones' and drives a BMW.  A 2014 Hybrid cause he cares about the environment, ya know, even though he only uses Premium gas.  So he gets roughly 26 MPG or 11 km per litre.  So, he burns about 40 litres a week in commuting at around 1.39 per litre, so $57 per week in gas, give or take.

So, ridiculous house (over 1000 square feet per person), ridiculous price paid, ridiculous commute, kids raised by other people, ambivalent about paying down ridiculous mortgage, oh and every damn light on in the house during the day.

I see nothing worthy of emulation.

CarDude

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2014, 12:15:05 AM »
"It's good for the environment" is a giant pet peeve of mine.  No, chances are, it's not good for the environment, it just might be less bad than an alternative.  The "eco-wash" laundry detergent isn't out there somewhere making sea otters happy and giving back massages to the rain forest.

Made me laugh.

Timmmy

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2014, 10:07:09 AM »
The comments on that article are the best!  (mirrors what's going on in this thread - are you guys logged into NP too?? haha)

There are so many of these affluent d-bags out there.

Did I read that right... they have TWO furnaces and TWO A/C units??
I ain't no heating/cooling expert, but couldn't you create dual climate for different floors by a simple (cheaper) design of controlling the flow of heat/cool from one unit by blocking/opening vents? Might take some creativity... but gotta be better than buying and maintaining TWO sets of furnaces/ACs.

I live not too far from these guys, so rest assured MMM community, if I ever see them I will deliver a 100% Certified MMM Face Punch to Mr. & Mrs. Keras.

What pisses me off the most is these idiots walk around high and mighty thinking they're 'doing their part'

Their 'lifestyle' is ridiculous.  Let's see.

Since Dad is a financial analyst, he obviously works on Bay Street.  213 Coons Road, Richmond Hill to oh, lets say the corner of King and Bay Streets is 45.4 km according to Mapquest (that's 28 miles for our American friends). So 90 km (56 miles) per day just to get to work for him.  Each way will take 36 min on an empty road (which will only be the case the day after the apocalypse), so realistically about 75 mins for a total commuting time of 2 1/2 hours per day or 12 1/2 hours per week.

Google maps clearly shows this home on street view, but the photos were taken when the driveway was full of service vehicles.  What kind of car could he drive?  Well, MLS doesn't show any homes for sale on Coons Road, but just the other side of the park behind them, homes are for sale in the 1.2 Million range, and just down the street, you can fetch a nice crackerbox for 1.7 Mil.  So, let's assume Mr. Financial Analyst likes to keep up with the Jones' and drives a BMW.  A 2014 Hybrid cause he cares about the environment, ya know, even though he only uses Premium gas.  So he gets roughly 26 MPG or 11 km per litre.  So, he burns about 40 litres a week in commuting at around 1.39 per litre, so $57 per week in gas, give or take.

So, ridiculous house (over 1000 square feet per person), ridiculous price paid, ridiculous commute, kids raised by other people, ambivalent about paying down ridiculous mortgage, oh and every damn light on in the house during the day.

I see nothing worthy of emulation.

I love the analytic minds of the mustachians! 

cbgg

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Re: WOW Dumb-ass Logic
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2014, 01:05:05 PM »
Ugh.  I guess if you are going to live in a 4500 square foot super house it should at least be eco friendly?  But this is soooo just the kind of thing that people buy to try to alleviate their eco-guilt without making any actual lifestyle changes.

Advancing technology to make energy use more efficient is a great thing, but the huge impact is going to be people/society changing expectations of what how much consumption is necessary.  News flash: you don't need 1000 square feet per person!