Author Topic: Why can't millennials get ahead?  (Read 46599 times)

gReed Smith

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #150 on: July 10, 2015, 06:33:29 AM »
Some of the breaking was an attempt to fix, so I think we'll probably break it more.  Our parent's generation wanted to control higher ed. costs, so they came up with grants and loan subsidies that enabled and fueled the insane pace of tuition inflation.  They also wanted to balance the federal budget, so they spent the social security trust fund.  Both created problems, although at least some of them were acting nobly.  Most of the proposals I see to fix some of these problems would likely create their own set of problems.

And it isn't like things were awesome for every generation.  Our grandparents had the pleasure of growing up in a depression and then fighting a total war to save civilization, all before they turned thirty.  By comparison, the recession and the war on terror are pretty mild.

My generation is going to eat a lot of student loan bills, and we'll probably have to make sacrifices to save the social security and medicare programs, but at least a Nazi isn't trying to stuff me into a concentration camp, and black people are allowed to sit wherever they choose on the bus.

nereo

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #151 on: July 10, 2015, 07:14:58 AM »
Some of the breaking was an attempt to fix, so I think we'll probably break it more.  Our parent's generation wanted to control higher ed. costs, so they came up with grants and loan subsidies that enabled and fueled the insane pace of tuition inflation.  They also wanted to balance the federal budget, so they spent the social security trust fund.  Both created problems, although at least some of them were acting nobly.  Most of the proposals I see to fix some of these problems would likely create their own set of problems.

And it isn't like things were awesome for every generation.  Our grandparents had the pleasure of growing up in a depression and then fighting a total war to save civilization, all before they turned thirty.  By comparison, the recession and the war on terror are pretty mild.

My generation is going to eat a lot of student loan bills, and we'll probably have to make sacrifices to save the social security and medicare programs, but at least a Nazi isn't trying to stuff me into a concentration camp, and black people are allowed to sit wherever they choose on the bus.
I will agree with you that each generation has it's own challenges, and there are some great changes that have occurred in equality and over the last fifty years.  However, I'm a bit dubious of your claim that the creation of grants and loans somehow fueled the increasing cost of higher education.  If you have any sources on this I'd be interested in reading them, particularly since higher education is my current field.  I also don't readily accept that Pell Grants and Stafford Loans (both created in 1965) were created with the intent that they would somehow bring down the cost of higher education.  My interpretation is simply that Pell grants were created to give individuals with more economic need the ability to pay for advanced education, and Stafford loans were simply loans for everyone (with a lot subsidized by the government).

I'm also cautious anytime someone brings up the politio-statement that we raided the SS trust fund in order to balance the budget. This gets into the issue of the special issue securities for SS, whether they have value and the whole fungibility of money, but it's a common scare tactic for politicians to say SS is bankrupt or the trust fund has been raided or other similar statements.  Furthermore, the single biggest factor behind the predicted future shortfall is demographics.  If we are assigning 'blame' to previous generations, we should 'blame' the Gen Xers and older Millennials for not having more babies. 

Chris22

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #152 on: July 10, 2015, 07:22:13 AM »
I will agree with you that each generation has it's own challenges, and there are some great changes that have occurred in equality and over the last fifty years.  However, I'm a bit dubious of your claim that the creation of grants and loans somehow fueled the increasing cost of higher education.  If you have any sources on this I'd be interested in reading them, particularly since higher education is my current field.  I also don't readily accept that Pell Grants and Stafford Loans (both created in 1965) were created with the intent that they would somehow bring down the cost of higher education.  My interpretation is simply that Pell grants were created to give individuals with more economic need the ability to pay for advanced education, and Stafford loans were simply loans for everyone (with a lot subsidized by the government).

It's econ 101 that more dollars chasing (essentially) the same resources pushes the price higher. 

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #153 on: July 10, 2015, 07:34:36 AM »
I'm a bit dubious of your claim that the creation of grants and loans somehow fueled the increasing cost of higher education.  If you have any sources on this I'd be interested in reading them, particularly since higher education is my current field.

A quick Google search produces this statement from the NCPA, with a list of sources cited on the bottom of the page. It makes the assertion that guaranteed student loans have allowed universities to raise tuition at rates much greater than inflation, then goes into what they're spending all the money on. I haven't read through them all yet, just posting since you asked.

gReed Smith

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #154 on: July 10, 2015, 07:40:21 AM »
I will agree with you that each generation has it's own challenges, and there are some great changes that have occurred in equality and over the last fifty years.  However, I'm a bit dubious of your claim that the creation of grants and loans somehow fueled the increasing cost of higher education.  If you have any sources on this I'd be interested in reading them, particularly since higher education is my current field.  I also don't readily accept that Pell Grants and Stafford Loans (both created in 1965) were created with the intent that they would somehow bring down the cost of higher education.  My interpretation is simply that Pell grants were created to give individuals with more economic need the ability to pay for advanced education, and Stafford loans were simply loans for everyone (with a lot subsidized by the government).

I'm also cautious anytime someone brings up the politio-statement that we raided the SS trust fund in order to balance the budget. This gets into the issue of the special issue securities for SS, whether they have value and the whole fungibility of money, but it's a common scare tactic for politicians to say SS is bankrupt or the trust fund has been raided or other similar statements.  Furthermore, the single biggest factor behind the predicted future shortfall is demographics.  If we are assigning 'blame' to previous generations, we should 'blame' the Gen Xers and older Millennials for not having more babies.

It's simple supply and demand.  If grants and subsidized loans (and the general availability of loans at all) didn't exist demand would go down, and schools would reduce their tuition in order to get enough students.  That would surely result in fewer people being able to attend college, but I'm not taking a position on whether or not the increased number of college grads is worth the increased costs.  It's the same as any subsidized industry.  Take a look at dairy farmers and their excess production.  If you really want to look at the shit run amok in education, look at law schools.  As long as there is someone funding the seats (allowing students to delay the pain of paying for it), they'll endlessly open law schools whether we need more lawyers or not because it's enormously profitable.

As for SS, when you hold debt owed to yourself, it isn't really an asset.  People saw the problem of an underfunded program, sort of tried to fix the problem by increasing the SS tax to create a trust fund, and then ultimately decided they didn't want to do that so they spent the trust fund money.  Ok, so they passed the buck to us.  Spending the trust fund money and replacing it with treasuries is an accounting gimmick so that future SS payments can be funded through the general treasury, and that helps hide the increased costs from the general wage earner for a while, because they won't have to raise the SS tax for a few more years.

Chris22

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #155 on: July 10, 2015, 07:51:57 AM »
As for SS, when you hold debt owed to yourself, it isn't really an asset. 

I should think everyone here would understand why a 401k loan isn't optimal in anything but extreme circumstances, and that's basically what the government did.

nereo

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #156 on: July 10, 2015, 07:57:40 AM »
I will agree with you that each generation has it's own challenges, and there are some great changes that have occurred in equality and over the last fifty years.  However, I'm a bit dubious of your claim that the creation of grants and loans somehow fueled the increasing cost of higher education.  If you have any sources on this I'd be interested in reading them, particularly since higher education is my current field.  I also don't readily accept that Pell Grants and Stafford Loans (both created in 1965) were created with the intent that they would somehow bring down the cost of higher education.  My interpretation is simply that Pell grants were created to give individuals with more economic need the ability to pay for advanced education, and Stafford loans were simply loans for everyone (with a lot subsidized by the government).

I'm also cautious anytime someone brings up the politio-statement that we raided the SS trust fund in order to balance the budget. This gets into the issue of the special issue securities for SS, whether they have value and the whole fungibility of money, but it's a common scare tactic for politicians to say SS is bankrupt or the trust fund has been raided or other similar statements.  Furthermore, the single biggest factor behind the predicted future shortfall is demographics.  If we are assigning 'blame' to previous generations, we should 'blame' the Gen Xers and older Millennials for not having more babies.

It's simple supply and demand.  If grants and subsidized loans (and the general availability of loans at all) didn't exist demand would go down, and schools would reduce their tuition in order to get enough students.  That would surely result in fewer people being able to attend college, but I'm not taking a position on whether or not the increased number of college grads is worth the increased costs.  It's the same as any subsidized industry.  Take a look at dairy farmers and their excess production.  If you really want to look at the shit run amok in education, look at law schools.  As long as there is someone funding the seats (allowing students to delay the pain of paying for it), they'll endlessly open law schools whether we need more lawyers or not because it's enormously profitable.

I believe you missed my point here, which is simply that I disagree that the intent of creating the Pell grants and Stafford loans were to bring down the cost of higher education, as you suggested earlier. Rather, they were meant to provide a means of paying for college.  Of course an increased demand can increase prices.  However, I believe the decades long decline in per-student funding given to universities has had an even larger effect.

Quote
As for SS, when you hold debt owed to yourself, it isn't really an asset.  People saw the problem of an underfunded program, sort of tried to fix the problem by increasing the SS tax to create a trust fund, and then ultimately decided they didn't want to do that so they spent the trust fund money.  Ok, so they passed the buck to us.  Spending the trust fund money and replacing it with treasuries is an accounting gimmick so that future SS payments can be funded through the general treasury, and that helps hide the increased costs from the general wage earner for a while, because they won't have to raise the SS tax for a few more years.
The key point that you are missing here is that this is debt that is owed to the federal government in USD which are printed by the federal government.  As such, it isn't the same as debt owed to yourself.  I agree that there's been a lot of gimmickry to make budgets appear balanced, but it has not caused the anticipated problem.  I'll not here that SS still brought in a surplus in 2013 (the last year data is available).
I do agree with both you and Chris22 that these accounting gimmicks have been a poor idea.

aristotle

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #157 on: July 10, 2015, 08:09:20 AM »
I think many millennials and young people bought into the "Hedonistic" lifestyle that is promoted which leads to mass spending because you "deserve it" and you should live life to the fullest. I'm a firm believer in living in the "Now" but young people today equate spending = happiness. I deserve to go away to that expensive college because I'm young and I don't want to regret it... 4 years later said person is in 80k debt with a sociology degree and is complaining they got the short end of the stick in life. Going out to eat everyday while many of them don't make that much, buying oversized cars, etc.

I also think some drank the kool aid on the "victim" card. Try to dish out blame on everyone else but themselves.

gReed Smith

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #158 on: July 10, 2015, 08:12:31 AM »
I see you're saying about the motivation of Pell grants and Stafford loans, but I don't see the distinction.  It's still a program with the noble intention of increasing college affordability, that created a problem of increased tuition (and debt).  I'm curious if the per student revenue, whether from tuition or government funding, is increasing or declining from decade to decade. That will answer whether access to easy money or a drop in direct subsidies is the bigger driver of increased tuition.  Based on the fact that more people than ever are attending college, I suspect it has become a bigger money-maker to provide education.

Good point that the feds can print money for their own use, but that's a rarely used strategy despite recent experience, and probably wouldn't be a good solution to an underfunded SS program.

KCM5

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #159 on: July 10, 2015, 08:25:01 AM »
I think many millennials and young people bought into the "Hedonistic" lifestyle that is promoted which leads to mass spending because you "deserve it" and you should live life to the fullest. I'm a firm believer in living in the "Now" but young people today equate spending = happiness. I deserve to go away to that expensive college because I'm young and I don't want to regret it... 4 years later said person is in 80k debt with a sociology degree and is complaining they got the short end of the stick in life. Going out to eat everyday while many of them don't make that much, buying oversized cars, etc.

I also think some drank the kool aid on the "victim" card. Try to dish out blame on everyone else but themselves.

Meh - this isn't a helpful generalization. And I don't believe it to be accurate, either. Although how often do you hear people talking about shopping therapy - it's not millenials that I hear saying those words.


Chris22

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #160 on: July 10, 2015, 08:39:01 AM »
I think many millennials and young people bought into the "Hedonistic" lifestyle that is promoted which leads to mass spending because you "deserve it" and you should live life to the fullest. I'm a firm believer in living in the "Now" but young people today equate spending = happiness. I deserve to go away to that expensive college because I'm young and I don't want to regret it... 4 years later said person is in 80k debt with a sociology degree and is complaining they got the short end of the stick in life. Going out to eat everyday while many of them don't make that much, buying oversized cars, etc.

I also think some drank the kool aid on the "victim" card. Try to dish out blame on everyone else but themselves.

Eh, I disagree.  First of all, the millenials aren't the ones buying the "oversized cars", nor were they the ones buying or lusting after the McMansion.   That's Boomer/GenX territory right there.  And second, a lot of the reason millenials do things like eat out is because that's how they socialize.  Many haven't settled down and started a family yet, so rather than go home to an empty place by themselves, they go out.  I don't think that's particularly hedonistic compared to those that have come before them.

gReed Smith

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #161 on: July 10, 2015, 08:46:23 AM »
One of the reasons that people think the Millennials buy into hedonism is that the media loves to print the type of whiny, navel-gazing articles that started this whole thread.  But I don't think the majority of us are buying $10 cocktails and then crying poor.  But, there are a lot of people who majored in bullshit, and then got mad that they can't find a $100k/year starting salary. 

I guess to reconcile my observations, I have to think that Millennials are mostly making good post-college financial decisions, but many feel entitled to not have to sacrifice.  That fits with my own circle of acquaintances at least; a lot of whining about nothing.

Chris22

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #162 on: July 10, 2015, 08:54:20 AM »
One of the reasons that people think the Millennials buy into hedonism is that the media loves to print the type of whiny, navel-gazing articles that started this whole thread.  But I don't think the majority of us are buying $10 cocktails and then crying poor.  But, there are a lot of people who majored in bullshit, and then got mad that they can't find a $100k/year starting salary. 

Somewhere I read (might have been here) that a lot of the people writing these articles for pseudo-news sites are the ones most bitter about how life turned out (bought a $150k liberal arts degree and now I make $20k writing for a blog).  I think there's a lot of truth to that.

Quote
I guess to reconcile my observations, I have to think that Millennials are mostly making good post-college financial decisions, but many feel entitled to not have to sacrifice.  That fits with my own circle of acquaintances at least; a lot of whining about nothing.

My bias, belief, and experience is that a lot of ambitious millenials don't want to put time in to wait stuff out, and rightly or wrongly, feel like they don't have to.  A lot of us saw family members screwed over in the various financial collapses, and aren't going to sit in an entry level job for the next 20 years hoping to get promoted.  It's up or out, no loyalty given or asked for.  I think for most of us, this comes with an expectation that we have to perform to get it, but when we do we expect rewards immediately, because frankly, we've been beaten/trained not to trust those who promise something later.  I think that rubs older people the wrong way, but frankly...you reap what you sow.

gReed Smith

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #163 on: July 10, 2015, 09:22:15 AM »
My bias, belief, and experience is that a lot of ambitious millenials don't want to put time in to wait stuff out, and rightly or wrongly, feel like they don't have to.  A lot of us saw family members screwed over in the various financial collapses, and aren't going to sit in an entry level job for the next 20 years hoping to get promoted.  It's up or out, no loyalty given or asked for.  I think for most of us, this comes with an expectation that we have to perform to get it, but when we do we expect rewards immediately, because frankly, we've been beaten/trained not to trust those who promise something later.  I think that rubs older people the wrong way, but frankly...you reap what you sow.

I couldn't agree more that older folks seem to go crazy when ambitious younger people reach out and grab what they want.  I thought that was just lawyers, because I have heard a lot of older lawyers tell me how they were "taken advantage of" for 15 years before they made it.  So why should I be taken advantage of just because you were?   

So I agree that most of us (including me) want to be rewarded immediately.  But I do get annoyed at the folks who don't actually put in the effort and still demand the reward.

mm1970

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #164 on: July 10, 2015, 09:49:18 AM »
One of the reasons that people think the Millennials buy into hedonism is that the media loves to print the type of whiny, navel-gazing articles that started this whole thread.  But I don't think the majority of us are buying $10 cocktails and then crying poor.  But, there are a lot of people who majored in bullshit, and then got mad that they can't find a $100k/year starting salary. 

Somewhere I read (might have been here) that a lot of the people writing these articles for pseudo-news sites are the ones most bitter about how life turned out (bought a $150k liberal arts degree and now I make $20k writing for a blog).  I think there's a lot of truth to that.

Quote
I guess to reconcile my observations, I have to think that Millennials are mostly making good post-college financial decisions, but many feel entitled to not have to sacrifice.  That fits with my own circle of acquaintances at least; a lot of whining about nothing.

My bias, belief, and experience is that a lot of ambitious millenials don't want to put time in to wait stuff out, and rightly or wrongly, feel like they don't have to.  A lot of us saw family members screwed over in the various financial collapses, and aren't going to sit in an entry level job for the next 20 years hoping to get promoted.  It's up or out, no loyalty given or asked for.  I think for most of us, this comes with an expectation that we have to perform to get it, but when we do we expect rewards immediately, because frankly, we've been beaten/trained not to trust those who promise something later.  I think that rubs older people the wrong way, but frankly...you reap what you sow.

Definitely some truth to this.  As an X-er, I see both sides.  I've worked with many a millenial who is frustrated about not getting what they want, but they haven't paid their dues.

Then again, how many dues to you pay?  I've seen quite a range of engineers who have worked for me from "excellent/ superstar" to "meh, you talk a lot but you aren't as good as you think you are".  I try to mentor all of them with:

"Look, I will do my very best to give you opportunities and raises, but I do not have control over the money.  As your boss (or not in some cases), I would advise you that if you aren't learning what you want, or getting paid what you want, that you go somewhere else.  The fact of the matter is that you get the *big* salary bumps when you change companies.  I cannot get you from $60k to $80k.  The company looks out for itself, and you need to do that too."

Some of the kids listen, and go grab what they want.  Some don't.

On the flip side, there is the free time thing.  I grew up in the era of working 50-60 hour weeks to pay your dues, including nights/ weekends.  The millenials I know, for the most part, don't want to do that.  They want to party on the weekend, get off to go surfing, whatever.  Now, I totally admire that!  Now that I have kids I work my hours and go home.  I wish I'd figured that out years ago.

And therein lies the change from "staying at an employer forever" and not.  These kids have figured out that they have to look out for themselves, and they want balance in their lives. The payment for busting your butt on nights and weekends?  When the company runs out of money, you are going to get laid off regardless, unless you are a superstar.  And even then, we've laid off superstars.

Chris22

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #165 on: July 10, 2015, 10:08:42 AM »
On the flip side, there is the free time thing.  I grew up in the era of working 50-60 hour weeks to pay your dues, including nights/ weekends.  The millenials I know, for the most part, don't want to do that.  They want to party on the weekend, get off to go surfing, whatever.  Now, I totally admire that!  Now that I have kids I work my hours and go home.  I wish I'd figured that out years ago.

Two sides of that coin too though; do millenials always want to work LESS or do they want to work FLEXIBLY?  Most millenials think nothing of being connected in 24/7 through email and texts, so if I blow off Tuesday afternoon to go surfing but attend a Sunday morning conference call, I see that as perfectly fair.  I work in a very cyclical business, and there is one week a month I'm working 12-18hr days.  Most people raising their eyebrows when I leave at 3PM to play golf on Thursdays aren't there with me at 11PM the following Tuesday.

RidinTheAsama

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #166 on: July 10, 2015, 10:23:39 AM »
And if you don't have an office provided for you, your cheapest alternative for a productive space may be the overpriced coffee shop down the street.

You forgot about the Library!

mm1970

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #167 on: July 10, 2015, 10:24:41 AM »
On the flip side, there is the free time thing.  I grew up in the era of working 50-60 hour weeks to pay your dues, including nights/ weekends.  The millenials I know, for the most part, don't want to do that.  They want to party on the weekend, get off to go surfing, whatever.  Now, I totally admire that!  Now that I have kids I work my hours and go home.  I wish I'd figured that out years ago.

Two sides of that coin too though; do millenials always want to work LESS or do they want to work FLEXIBLY?  Most millenials think nothing of being connected in 24/7 through email and texts, so if I blow off Tuesday afternoon to go surfing but attend a Sunday morning conference call, I see that as perfectly fair.  I work in a very cyclical business, and there is one week a month I'm working 12-18hr days.  Most people raising their eyebrows when I leave at 3PM to play golf on Thursdays aren't there with me at 11PM the following Tuesday.
My industry is more of a 24/7 manufacturing.  Or was.  We need to support the manufacturing facility 24/7.

So some of it is definitely less - I didn't see any of them working the super long hours that the older people did/ do.

Some of it is flexibility.  I need that, because I have to pick up the kids.  On the flip side, I was the one here when the crap hit the fan on Sundays.

Some of them simply didn't want to work late or weekends, ever.  I'm used to picking one or the other.  I pretty much demand flexibility, but it also means that SOME of the time I'm working is going to be when I don't want to.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #168 on: July 10, 2015, 01:11:02 PM »
The most recent discussions on this thread, since I asked my last question, supports my theory that; should older generations fail to fix SS before they take over, Millenials are more likely to scrap SS (in practice, perhaps not in name) for the majority of retirees above the poverty line.  The simplest way that could be done, which has already been proposed, is a means test; which would immediately turn SS from a nationalized pension back into the anti-poverty program that it was originally founded as.

Also, it has confirmed the theorem that it is nearly impossible to convince the truth of economic factors to a person whose primary income is dependent upon them not understanding. Cognative Dissonance is a powerful thing.

gReed Smith

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #169 on: July 10, 2015, 03:13:49 PM »

My grandparents did more with one modest income than we modern Americans seem to be able to do with two. My grandfather was a draftsman and made modest money. Wasn't until much later than my grandmother took a minimum wage job and boosted their savings.


My grandfather was a draftsman!  I have a picture of him and my grandmother digging the foundation for their house with a pick and a shovel on the weekends.  Talk about badassity.  He built that house for $8,000 in 1950 (about $76k in 2012 dollars), and sold it for $310,000 in 2012.

Making Cookies

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #170 on: July 10, 2015, 03:14:29 PM »

The South isn't monolithic, any more than "the North" or "the Midwest". There are great schools and awful schools in every state. But for us, this is just a place to get rich so we can FIRE near my family soon, instead of rushing there and struggling to make ends meet for decades. We'll foster or adopt once we're in the right situation for it.
no, damnit - the "south" is same across all 12-15 states. The climate's the same ( all 750k square miles of it), the people are the same (all 100M+ of them - except they can be divided into "black" and "white") and the schools are universally terrible (all ~40,000 of them).

Stop confusin' people sayin' there be differences!
(sarcasm ... in case you can't tell).

SHUT UP people!!!! ;)

I don't want to be competing against all the left and right coastal people who figured out that their income goes further in low COL of living places like the south... ;)

Every place has its charms. Even Mayberry, NC and the boondocks of GA. Its what you make of it. I'd much rather make my dollars stretch in a low COL place than be poor in a city of millions of people where everything comes with a price and a high COL. Been there, done that. I haven't paid for parking in my town - ever and my commute is 15 mins at 35 mph.

Making Cookies

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #171 on: July 10, 2015, 03:18:53 PM »
But what if you want to do something silly like send your kid to school?  I get that the South has a pretty reasonable COL, but they also have demonstrably terrible services like education.

Well, I honestly can't think of a single state of the old Confederacy that has a public education system that even comes close to New Jersey or Massachusetts.  I'm sure there are some good individual schools, but the combination of very low investment in public education and unorganized, low-paid teachers is deadly.

I'm confused. All you need is ONE school (per kid, per unit time...). Your kid cannot attend every school in the system simultaneously. You can definitely have the LCOL and a decent (even excellent) public school in the South, particularly if you're in a major metro area, even if you find that the system on the state level is terrible. In some cases, you don't even have to be zoned there because you can send your kid to a magnet school ranked in the Top 25 public high schools in the nation. You don't have to like the whole system; your part of the system just has to be acceptable.

But in terms of living in an area with an educated populace and a culture that values education....


Listen, I lived in semi-rural GA for a while, I've been there.  I know how it is.  It's not an environment in which I want to raise my kid.

Ever been to Athens, GA? Little southern college towns are often a great place to raise a family. I was in Forsythe, GA recently on business. You know some of it was okay - seemed like the money of Atlanta was reaching out into the country and building some nice places. Then a mile down the road was a tiny little place that looked like a tornado hit it with junk all around the house.

Or I could live in the city where these five streets are nice and then a few streets over you better not be out alone after dark. I've lived there too.

Left

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #172 on: July 10, 2015, 04:36:39 PM »
Aren't most high schools crap for low-achieving students?  If you're not going to bother to study, you're not going to learn or pass classes in High School.  That's just how it is.  As for that High School you found, that's what I'm going to look for when I have kids.  I don't care about how poorly the under-acheivers are doing, it's all about how the top end is doing.

Look for a high school with an International Baccalaureate high school program...
then go to a foreign college :D because it's the only high school diploma accepted internationally lol

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #173 on: July 10, 2015, 07:35:43 PM »
So...is sweet tea the same as what we call iced tea in Canada?  I always thought it was, but the descriptions of it here make it sound sweeter.

I've been to the States but not far south enough to get anything but the unsweetened iced tea, which I've never quite been able to decide if I like or not.  I think it may be an acquired taste.

nereo

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #174 on: July 10, 2015, 07:44:26 PM »
So...is sweet tea the same as what we call iced tea in Canada?  I always thought it was, but the descriptions of it here make it sound sweeter.

I've been to the States but not far south enough to get anything but the unsweetened iced tea, which I've never quite been able to decide if I like or not.  I think it may be an acquired taste.
No, it is nothing like the sweetened iced tea that is served in Canada (at least not anywhere I have been, which includes BC, Quebec and the maritimes).  When I've been offered ice tea with sweetener, it's just tea with some sugar stirred in.  True sweet tea has so much sugar in it that it can only be added when the water is boiling hot.  That much sugar will not dissolve into even roam-temperature tea.

Lynne

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #175 on: July 10, 2015, 07:56:19 PM »
So...is sweet tea the same as what we call iced tea in Canada?  I always thought it was, but the descriptions of it here make it sound sweeter.

I've been to the States but not far south enough to get anything but the unsweetened iced tea, which I've never quite been able to decide if I like or not.  I think it may be an acquired taste.
No, it is nothing like the sweetened iced tea that is served in Canada (at least not anywhere I have been, which includes BC, Quebec and the maritimes).  When I've been offered ice tea with sweetener, it's just tea with some sugar stirred in.  True sweet tea has so much sugar in it that it can only be added when the water is boiling hot.  That much sugar will not dissolve into even roam-temperature tea.

Ah.  I really must try this if I'm ever far enough south (though it sounds more like syrup than something drinkable.  :) )

aschmidt2930

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #176 on: July 10, 2015, 09:09:11 PM »
One of the reasons that people think the Millennials buy into hedonism is that the media loves to print the type of whiny, navel-gazing articles that started this whole thread.  But I don't think the majority of us are buying $10 cocktails and then crying poor.  But, there are a lot of people who majored in bullshit, and then got mad that they can't find a $100k/year starting salary. 

Somewhere I read (might have been here) that a lot of the people writing these articles for pseudo-news sites are the ones most bitter about how life turned out (bought a $150k liberal arts degree and now I make $20k writing for a blog).  I think there's a lot of truth to that.

Quote
I guess to reconcile my observations, I have to think that Millennials are mostly making good post-college financial decisions, but many feel entitled to not have to sacrifice.  That fits with my own circle of acquaintances at least; a lot of whining about nothing.

My bias, belief, and experience is that a lot of ambitious millenials don't want to put time in to wait stuff out, and rightly or wrongly, feel like they don't have to.  A lot of us saw family members screwed over in the various financial collapses, and aren't going to sit in an entry level job for the next 20 years hoping to get promoted.  It's up or out, no loyalty given or asked for.  I think for most of us, this comes with an expectation that we have to perform to get it, but when we do we expect rewards immediately, because frankly, we've been beaten/trained not to trust those who promise something later.  I think that rubs older people the wrong way, but frankly...you reap what you sow.

I agree with your assessment.  It can be done in the right and wrong way, but if done correctly, I see nothing wrong with that attitude.  If you're smart, well prepared, and technically savvy, you can sprint ahead in today's business environment, no need to "pay your dues." 

The great thing about modern tech, is that we can measure almost anything.  If you get results, and can prove it, a mid-twenties millennial can get key projects over co-workers with 5 times the experience.

aschmidt2930

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #177 on: July 10, 2015, 09:12:05 PM »
Check your mobile phone while working?

A previous employer declared (I've been told by friends) that nobody is allowed to carry their cellphone into work. If you are seen checking it during the day except lunch- you're toast on the spot.

I remember one 20-something years ago that belonged to a coworker getting fired b/c he thought the business phone was his personal phone. He was an entry-level guy that thought receiving and making a dozen calls every day on company time was normal. Might be able to slide that by when you have a desk or office, not as easy when you are the company gopher (do this, do that, etc). Not good being paged when nobody else is.

As I recall he called the parent I worked with a half dozen times a day to ask about this and that related to his job. He wasn't prepared to be someone's employee. Hopefully he got wiser at the next job.

That's hard to comprehend.  A company like that wouldn't need to fire me, I'd quit on the spot. 

crispy

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #178 on: July 11, 2015, 08:10:14 AM »
Well, I don't know about you, but I find the idea of searching for that needle in the haystack to be really unappealing and tedious.  Honestly, though, when it comes time to retire, I'll probably consider moving to a Southern state due to the fact that they don't care about education, because that would reduce my tax burden when I'm on a more fixed income than I am now.  Going from New Jersey to somewhere like Mississippi would be like taking the weights off the bat when stepping out of the on-deck circle, financially speaking.

Needle in the haystack? You can find the better schools just by looking at where the money lives in many southern towns and cities via real estate books. Look up Williamson County, TN. Great public schools. Nice places to live. The town square was a happening place over the 4th of July weekend with food, drink and live music. Free parking. Glenn Miller Band playing in the restored theater.

Go across metro Nashville to McGavock High School and it's hit or miss. They had their troubles.

Is it any different anywhere else?

Based on cost of living versus income, Willamson County, TN is considered the richest county in the United States. 

Jack

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #179 on: July 11, 2015, 06:22:13 PM »
So...is sweet tea the same as what we call iced tea in Canada?  I always thought it was, but the descriptions of it here make it sound sweeter.

I've been to the States but not far south enough to get anything but the unsweetened iced tea, which I've never quite been able to decide if I like or not.  I think it may be an acquired taste.
No, it is nothing like the sweetened iced tea that is served in Canada (at least not anywhere I have been, which includes BC, Quebec and the maritimes).  When I've been offered ice tea with sweetener, it's just tea with some sugar stirred in.  True sweet tea has so much sugar in it that it can only be added when the water is boiling hot.  That much sugar will not dissolve into even roam-temperature tea.

Ah.  I really must try this if I'm ever far enough south (though it sounds more like syrup than something drinkable.  :) )

It's really not any sweeter than Coca-Cola (or at least, not much sweeter). I guess there are those who think soda is crazy-sweet, but if you're used to sweet tea it's just sort of "normal..."

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #180 on: July 12, 2015, 04:59:21 PM »
So...is sweet tea the same as what we call iced tea in Canada?  I always thought it was, but the descriptions of it here make it sound sweeter.

I've been to the States but not far south enough to get anything but the unsweetened iced tea, which I've never quite been able to decide if I like or not.  I think it may be an acquired taste.
No, it is nothing like the sweetened iced tea that is served in Canada (at least not anywhere I have been, which includes BC, Quebec and the maritimes).  When I've been offered ice tea with sweetener, it's just tea with some sugar stirred in.  True sweet tea has so much sugar in it that it can only be added when the water is boiling hot.  That much sugar will not dissolve into even roam-temperature tea.

Ah.  I really must try this if I'm ever far enough south (though it sounds more like syrup than something drinkable.  :) )

At Trader Joe's in the south, they have a big urn of free sweet tea next to their usual free coffee. Best to try it for free, imho.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #181 on: July 12, 2015, 05:23:14 PM »
At Trader Joe's in the south, they have a big urn of free sweet tea next to their usual free coffee
They have trader Joe's in the south ????

LeRainDrop

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #182 on: July 12, 2015, 06:27:27 PM »
At Trader Joe's in the south, they have a big urn of free sweet tea next to their usual free coffee
They have trader Joe's in the south ????
Yes, several here in Atlanta.  According to wikipedia, about half of TJ's stores are in California, but they also have locations in 38 other states plus DC.  Full list here:  http://www.traderjoes.com/pdf/locations/all-llocations.pdf
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 06:30:13 PM by LeRainDrop »

Jack

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #183 on: July 13, 2015, 12:03:06 AM »
I can't recall ever seeing free sweet tea at the Trader Joe's in Midtown Atlanta -- and I'm pretty sure I would have noticed it, because that would be awesome!

asiljoy

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #184 on: July 13, 2015, 06:29:14 AM »
My bias, belief, and experience is that a lot of ambitious millenials don't want to put time in to wait stuff out, and rightly or wrongly, feel like they don't have to.  A lot of us saw family members screwed over in the various financial collapses, and aren't going to sit in an entry level job for the next 20 years hoping to get promoted.  It's up or out, no loyalty given or asked for.  I think for most of us, this comes with an expectation that we have to perform to get it, but when we do we expect rewards immediately, because frankly, we've been beaten/trained not to trust those who promise something later.  I think that rubs older people the wrong way, but frankly...you reap what you sow.

Yep. This is exactly my thought process as a millennial. And since I recently got laid off instead of a promised promotion, seems like it's the smart way to go. I'm sorry if it rubs people the wrong way... eh, not really. I work my butt off. I want more than a pat on the head.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #185 on: July 13, 2015, 02:28:02 PM »
So...is sweet tea the same as what we call iced tea in Canada?  I always thought it was, but the descriptions of it here make it sound sweeter.

I've been to the States but not far south enough to get anything but the unsweetened iced tea, which I've never quite been able to decide if I like or not.  I think it may be an acquired taste.
No, it is nothing like the sweetened iced tea that is served in Canada (at least not anywhere I have been, which includes BC, Quebec and the maritimes).  When I've been offered ice tea with sweetener, it's just tea with some sugar stirred in.  True sweet tea has so much sugar in it that it can only be added when the water is boiling hot.  That much sugar will not dissolve into even roam-temperature tea.

Ah.  I really must try this if I'm ever far enough south (though it sounds more like syrup than something drinkable.  :) )

It's really not any sweeter than Coca-Cola (or at least, not much sweeter). I guess there are those who think soda is crazy-sweet, but if you're used to sweet tea it's just sort of "normal..."

A can of Coca-Cola is what, 110 calories per 12 ounce can?  I was a a local festival this Saturday, and there was a booth selling a privately bottled brand of sweet tea. Bottled warm and then refrigerated, sugar crystals form on the inside of the bottle. 12 ounce bottle said 280 calories.  This stuff was so sweet that it made you thirstier than when you started.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #186 on: July 13, 2015, 02:33:03 PM »
My bias, belief, and experience is that a lot of ambitious millenials don't want to put time in to wait stuff out, and rightly or wrongly, feel like they don't have to.  A lot of us saw family members screwed over in the various financial collapses, and aren't going to sit in an entry level job for the next 20 years hoping to get promoted.  It's up or out, no loyalty given or asked for.  I think for most of us, this comes with an expectation that we have to perform to get it, but when we do we expect rewards immediately, because frankly, we've been beaten/trained not to trust those who promise something later.  I think that rubs older people the wrong way, but frankly...you reap what you sow.

Yep. This is exactly my thought process as a millennial. And since I recently got laid off instead of a promised promotion, seems like it's the smart way to go. I'm sorry if it rubs people the wrong way... eh, not really. I work my butt off. I want more than a pat on the head.
You just have to play the game.  Thing is, the game has changed, and a lot of people haven't adjusted (X-ers and older).

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #187 on: July 14, 2015, 10:34:16 AM »
No - I can get sweet tea way further north of I-40. The line is probably somewhere near central KY, mid-VA, and mid-Indiana. Got sweet tea in a Cracker Barrel in Rochester one time. The waitress the night before in a different franchise restaurant looked at me like I said something in Japanese when I asked for sweet tea.
So maybe I-40 is the line for not just availability but universal recognition.

Based on cost of living versus income, Willamson County, TN is considered the richest county in the United States.
I don't have the actual numbers but that comparison is how we got on the South in this thread (via my personal case study in Madison County AL). Do you know of any good sources to find that info for any given location?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 10:39:08 AM by zephyr911 »

Cotton Balls

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #188 on: July 18, 2015, 02:48:07 PM »
25 here.

My fiance and I went to a state school with very low tuition, and both worked jobs while there. While in school we didn't spend much money, and instead of partying, spent our time bettering ourselves at our respective crafts. We both graduated without debt, packed up my car (already paid off, low cost craigslist car) and left for a major city. We both found work soon after as a result of having spent so much time in school practicing and studying. We parlayed that work into more work, eventually started contracting, which came with higher pay, but lower job security. This was okay since neither of us particularly liked working at any given place for more than a year, and allowed us to move based on other factors. We continued to save up, and after a few years, moved to a much more affordable city in the Midwest, where we both found more work, at the same pay, but now with a much lower cost of living. We are continuing to save so we can put a down payment on a very reasonable, small house. Eventually we would like a small house somewhere out in the PNW, where we can have some farm animals and grow some crops.

Many of the people we went to school with couldn't find work after school. They didn't take school seriously, and as a result, were passed up in the job market. Many of them also had somehow accrued a large amount of debt, even with our modest tuition rates. The constantly complain about not being able to find work, but spend all of their free time watching television or doing something unrelated. I often see them talking about how the "industry is dead" or that the people with jobs are only there as a result of nepotism.

Many of the people we worked with had crippling debt, but still spent their entire paycheck without fail. One guy was bragging about how he bought a FLARE GUN. He had no use for it, but "just wanted one for fun". Same guy had almost 50k in debt and his parents were paying his cellphone bill and rent. We worked at a large tech company, making way too much money to have your parents paying for that kind of stuff.

Sure, we are not as mustachian as some. We do eat out occasionally, and I probably drive my car at times when I could bike. I am putting away close to half of what I make however, and this percentage should go up again here soon. We don't buy a lot of stuff, and don't have any recurring monthly payments outside of some work software, rent and utilities. Nobody knows this about us, and it isn't something I go around broadcasting to everyone else. I do have friends of a similar mindset, and we discuss these topics frequently. My guess would be there is some sort of conformation bias, and people are seeking out millennials who have made poor financial decisions, and saying, "Ah ha! They all must be doing this! What a crappy generation!" Social media platforms have also made it easier than ever to brag about your poor life choices.

So I wouldn't say that millennials can't get ahead, but instead that there are always people who will make poor decisions that prevent them from getting ahead, regardless of generation. Not having lived in the past, I can't say if things would have been easier or more difficult, all I know is what exists now.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 02:51:56 PM by Cotton Balls »

zephyr911

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #189 on: July 20, 2015, 10:25:56 AM »
Apologies if this one has already been trotted out in this thread, but it gives me great lulz:

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/63219-the-children-now-love-luxury-they-have-bad-manners-contempt
“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

Apparently every generation has *always* been worse than the ones before it, or so our terrible memories have always allowed us to believe, once we grow up and forget how shitty we were as kids. Which is why we had the Internet and social justice millions of years ago but now exist in roving hunter-gatherer bands ruled by violence and ignorance.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 11:07:19 AM by zephyr911 »

MgoSam

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #190 on: July 20, 2015, 10:54:37 AM »
Apparently every generation has *always* been worse than the ones before it[/url], or so our terrible memories have always allowed us to believe, once we grow up and forget how shitty we were as kids. Which is why we had the Internet and social justice millions of years ago but now exist in roving hunter-gatherer bands ruled by violence and ignorance.

We've always been at war with eastasia.

zephyr911

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #191 on: July 20, 2015, 11:11:06 AM »
We've always been at war with eastasia.
Seems like a good enough reason to stay that way.

asiljoy

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #192 on: July 20, 2015, 06:34:30 PM »
We've always been at war with eastasia.
Seems like a good enough reason to stay that way.