Author Topic: Why can't millennials get ahead?  (Read 46507 times)

zephyr911

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #100 on: June 30, 2015, 03:27:34 PM »
Well, we were talking about a lot of different things at different times, but we got on NORAL when I used it as an example of a LCOL place where young people from HCOL areas could migrate to make a killing and pocket most of it, thereby giving themselves some options. Most of the debate since then has stemmed from assumptions about the area in question. I was somewhat ambiguous on that point in my introductory comment, so in case anyone is still wondering:
Quote
low-cost areas in the deep south, including urban, liberal ones
...describes Madison County well enough, relative to the boondocks being imagined. My point was that there are places where people from anywhere can thrive while enjoying life and taking advantage of dramatically reduced costs.

I came here out of necessity, but we stay here because we can save more money in a year than the average family brings in, while living opulently, and still have musicals and museums and shit. It's a hell of a springboard.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #101 on: June 30, 2015, 04:34:11 PM »
There are good school and awful schools in nearly every state. I'm sure none of us would want to send our kids to high school in the Newark NJ district, nor would any of us be sad to send them to some of the outstanding districts in Texas. (And yes, they teach evolution.) Schools are very local.


This. There are tons of good schools in the metro areas that I just named in Texas. No need to put the kids through trial-and-error, and no need to say it's like finding a needle in a haystack. Finding a good school isn't just random chance. Just because something is in the minority (on the state level) doesn't mean it's necessarily difficult to find. Conversely, just because a state has a good system does not mean that your local school is good. There's a wealth of resources out there to make an educated decision about, well, education.

Texas isn't the deep south, and it certainly isn't "Northern Alabama".  And it's got a COL that is more analogous to its increased educational opportunities.  Fairfax County isn't even in the scope of this discussion, as it's one of the most expensive places in the country to live.

We were talking about pure low-cost living areas in the deep south, and let's face it, cherry picking Fairfax or some suburb of Houston is not in the spirit of that discussion.  We drive IL --> Destin, FL every year, and part of that route is Hwy 316 (I think that's the #) through backwoods Alabama.  Pure Deliverance country.  THAT'S what we were talking about.

This should go without saying, but it's ridiculous to judge the entire southern U.S. based on your annual drive through backwoods Alabama.

On average, the south may have poorer schooling than other regions. But we are talking about an entire region of the country, there are tons of excellent school districts to choose from. Just one example - when we moved to the south, we ended up in a school district where the assigned elementary/middle/high schools are rated 10, 7, and 9 (according to that school ratings thing on Zillow). This was by pure chance - we have no kids and did zero research into the local schools. I'm confident you could easily find a good school district in the South if that's a priority for you.

dcheesi

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #102 on: June 30, 2015, 06:06:43 PM »
FWIW, The Mason Dixon line may be above Maryland, but the all important "sweet tea" line is somewhere around the middle of Virginia (between Charlottesville and Roanoke), at least as of 20 years ago.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #103 on: June 30, 2015, 11:09:49 PM »
FWIW, The Mason Dixon line may be above Maryland, but the all important "sweet tea" line is somewhere around the middle of Virginia (between Charlottesville and Roanoke), at least as of 20 years ago.

I noticed that. I was in Maryland for work two weeks ago, and every time I tried getting tea (even allegedly-sweet tea!) my reaction was


ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #104 on: July 01, 2015, 05:26:18 AM »
In many respects, Houston ISD, which covers all the "bad" parts of Houston and many of the fancy parts, is a very successful big-city school district, despite getting a tremendous number of baffled and scared refugee and immigrant children every year.

zephyr911

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #105 on: July 01, 2015, 06:45:23 AM »
FWIW, The Mason Dixon line may be above Maryland, but the all important "sweet tea" line is somewhere around the middle of Virginia (between Charlottesville and Roanoke), at least as of 20 years ago.
Crazy coincidence, but just last night at a bar one of my friends was making a similar assertion... he says the actual M-D line should be I-40 because of sweet tea.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #106 on: July 01, 2015, 07:29:07 AM »
In many respects, Houston ISD, which covers all the "bad" parts of Houston and many of the fancy parts, is a very successful big-city school district, despite getting a tremendous number of baffled and scared refugee and immigrant children every year.

I went to public school in Texas (Austin)- if you were a high achieving student, the school was incredible. Tons of AP classes (Normal stuff like Statistics/Calculus AB/BC, Chemistry/Physics/Biology, Psychology/Government/Economics/World History/European History, Spanish/French/Latin, but also weird things like Studio Art and Art History); many students getting perfect scores on SAT, people going to Ivy Leagues for undergrad, people going to Tier 1 law schools later on etc (since many people went to Texas's public universities- because some of them are also excellent, rather than an expensive private undergrad).

But if you were a low achieving student; the school was absolute crap.  It was like a different world.  I had a friend from my neighborhood who I would have NEVER seen at school if I didn't make an effort because she was in different classes than me. And I would say her high school education was COMPLETELY different than mine.  She did still get into and go to a decent college, but the divide in quality of education was striking.


Maybe it was a similar divide, and they all just happen to be on the lower end- but I would have never thought New Jersey had an excellent public school system based on my cousins who went to school there (in multiple different cities, but all well-to-do). I would have called it average; I think I had more opportunity than they did and more opportunity to learn critical thinking vs. fact memorization. I certainly think higher of the big Texas public universities than I do of New Jersey public universities.  I do know Massachusetts has a great reputation for their schools.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 07:31:24 AM by iowajes »

EricP

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #107 on: July 01, 2015, 09:38:38 AM »
In many respects, Houston ISD, which covers all the "bad" parts of Houston and many of the fancy parts, is a very successful big-city school district, despite getting a tremendous number of baffled and scared refugee and immigrant children every year.

I went to public school in Texas (Austin)- if you were a high achieving student, the school was incredible. Tons of AP classes (Normal stuff like Statistics/Calculus AB/BC, Chemistry/Physics/Biology, Psychology/Government/Economics/World History/European History, Spanish/French/Latin, but also weird things like Studio Art and Art History); many students getting perfect scores on SAT, people going to Ivy Leagues for undergrad, people going to Tier 1 law schools later on etc (since many people went to Texas's public universities- because some of them are also excellent, rather than an expensive private undergrad).

But if you were a low achieving student; the school was absolute crap.  It was like a different world.  I had a friend from my neighborhood who I would have NEVER seen at school if I didn't make an effort because she was in different classes than me. And I would say her high school education was COMPLETELY different than mine.  She did still get into and go to a decent college, but the divide in quality of education was striking.


Maybe it was a similar divide, and they all just happen to be on the lower end- but I would have never thought New Jersey had an excellent public school system based on my cousins who went to school there (in multiple different cities, but all well-to-do). I would have called it average; I think I had more opportunity than they did and more opportunity to learn critical thinking vs. fact memorization. I certainly think higher of the big Texas public universities than I do of New Jersey public universities.  I do know Massachusetts has a great reputation for their schools.

Aren't most high schools crap for low-achieving students?  If you're not going to bother to study, you're not going to learn or pass classes in High School.  That's just how it is.  As for that High School you found, that's what I'm going to look for when I have kids.  I don't care about how poorly the under-acheivers are doing, it's all about how the top end is doing.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #108 on: July 01, 2015, 09:43:03 AM »
In many respects, Houston ISD, which covers all the "bad" parts of Houston and many of the fancy parts, is a very successful big-city school district, despite getting a tremendous number of baffled and scared refugee and immigrant children every year.

I went to public school in Texas (Austin)- if you were a high achieving student, the school was incredible. Tons of AP classes (Normal stuff like Statistics/Calculus AB/BC, Chemistry/Physics/Biology, Psychology/Government/Economics/World History/European History, Spanish/French/Latin, but also weird things like Studio Art and Art History); many students getting perfect scores on SAT, people going to Ivy Leagues for undergrad, people going to Tier 1 law schools later on etc (since many people went to Texas's public universities- because some of them are also excellent, rather than an expensive private undergrad).

But if you were a low achieving student; the school was absolute crap.  It was like a different world.  I had a friend from my neighborhood who I would have NEVER seen at school if I didn't make an effort because she was in different classes than me. And I would say her high school education was COMPLETELY different than mine.  She did still get into and go to a decent college, but the divide in quality of education was striking.


Maybe it was a similar divide, and they all just happen to be on the lower end- but I would have never thought New Jersey had an excellent public school system based on my cousins who went to school there (in multiple different cities, but all well-to-do). I would have called it average; I think I had more opportunity than they did and more opportunity to learn critical thinking vs. fact memorization. I certainly think higher of the big Texas public universities than I do of New Jersey public universities.  I do know Massachusetts has a great reputation for their schools.

Aren't most high schools crap for low-achieving students?  If you're not going to bother to study, you're not going to learn or pass classes in High School.  That's just how it is.  As for that High School you found, that's what I'm going to look for when I have kids.  I don't care about how poorly the under-acheivers are doing, it's all about how the top end is doing.

What is this 'study' of which you speak? Seriously. High School is so stupidly easy for anyone to pass so long as their home life is decent and they value the education somewhat. I may be an exception, but I got a full 5 on the AP-US exam without studying, taking notes, and mostly doodling in the back row. Took my AP-level math classes at the local community college.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #109 on: July 01, 2015, 09:59:25 AM »
In many respects, Houston ISD, which covers all the "bad" parts of Houston and many of the fancy parts, is a very successful big-city school district, despite getting a tremendous number of baffled and scared refugee and immigrant children every year.

I went to public school in Texas (Austin)- if you were a high achieving student, the school was incredible. Tons of AP classes (Normal stuff like Statistics/Calculus AB/BC, Chemistry/Physics/Biology, Psychology/Government/Economics/World History/European History, Spanish/French/Latin, but also weird things like Studio Art and Art History); many students getting perfect scores on SAT, people going to Ivy Leagues for undergrad, people going to Tier 1 law schools later on etc (since many people went to Texas's public universities- because some of them are also excellent, rather than an expensive private undergrad).

But if you were a low achieving student; the school was absolute crap.  It was like a different world.  I had a friend from my neighborhood who I would have NEVER seen at school if I didn't make an effort because she was in different classes than me. And I would say her high school education was COMPLETELY different than mine.  She did still get into and go to a decent college, but the divide in quality of education was striking.


Maybe it was a similar divide, and they all just happen to be on the lower end- but I would have never thought New Jersey had an excellent public school system based on my cousins who went to school there (in multiple different cities, but all well-to-do). I would have called it average; I think I had more opportunity than they did and more opportunity to learn critical thinking vs. fact memorization. I certainly think higher of the big Texas public universities than I do of New Jersey public universities.  I do know Massachusetts has a great reputation for their schools.

Aren't most high schools crap for low-achieving students?  If you're not going to bother to study, you're not going to learn or pass classes in High School.  That's just how it is.  As for that High School you found, that's what I'm going to look for when I have kids.  I don't care about how poorly the under-acheivers are doing, it's all about how the top end is doing.

What is this 'study' of which you speak? Seriously. High School is so stupidly easy for anyone to pass so long as their home life is decent and they value the education somewhat. I may be an exception, but I got a full 5 on the AP-US exam without studying, taking notes, and mostly doodling in the back row. Took my AP-level math classes at the local community college.

Right, so you're a smart person.  As am I, however, most people can't retain the knowledge just from casually hearing it while doodling in the back.  They need to study and do their homework to pass classes and when they don't, then they fail.  These are the "underachieving" students. 

Not everyone still remembers that in 1066, William the Bastard, Duke of Normandy, conquered England.  Some people aren't going to instantly understand the difference between "Demand" and "Quantity Demanded" from seeing a single graph.  For those people, they are going to have a shitty time and fail classes if they aren't putting in effort.

Additionally, most of these kids don't have a good homelife and don't value education, that's why they're underachievers.

zephyr911

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #110 on: July 01, 2015, 10:23:12 AM »
I went to public school in Texas (Austin)- if you were a high achieving student, the school was incredible. Tons of AP classes (Normal stuff like Statistics/Calculus AB/BC, Chemistry/Physics/Biology, Psychology/Government/Economics/World History/European History, Spanish/French/Latin, but also weird things like Studio Art and Art History); many students getting perfect scores on SAT, people going to Ivy Leagues for undergrad, people going to Tier 1 law schools later on etc (since many people went to Texas's public universities- because some of them are also excellent, rather than an expensive private undergrad).

But if you were a low achieving student; the school was absolute crap.  It was like a different world.  I had a friend from my neighborhood who I would have NEVER seen at school if I didn't make an effort because she was in different classes than me. And I would say her high school education was COMPLETELY different than mine.  She did still get into and go to a decent college, but the divide in quality of education was striking.
My public high school in Hawaii was similar. I still remember my freshman year when I couldn't take the high-end version of physical science (they had 3, IIRC) and instead got stuck with the bottom-rung class due to a scheduling conflict. I learned more advanced science from the aeronautics side notes in my JROTC class than in my actual "science" class, which was a glorified babysitting operation that devoted about a month at a time to topics like "friction" and "force", with physical demos to entertain kids who didn't want to be there. I was harassed for my nerdiness and had things stolen from me on a regular basis.

The rest of my time at that school was largely spent with like-minded students whose parents cared about their education, and who had college plans (mostly out of state). After a year or two, the only people taking science at all were those planning on actually using that knowledge, so bio and chem were far better, and AP physics dovetailed wonderfully with AP calculus. Same building, night and day experiences.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #111 on: July 01, 2015, 10:30:48 AM »

Aren't most high schools crap for low-achieving students?  If you're not going to bother to study, you're not going to learn or pass classes in High School.  That's just how it is.  As for that High School you found, that's what I'm going to look for when I have kids.  I don't care about how poorly the under-acheivers are doing, it's all about how the top end is doing.

Some schools care more about bridging gaps and helping these students rise up a bit.

infogoon

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #112 on: July 01, 2015, 11:50:33 AM »
I was born in 1989 and I remember how much better Dogpile was than Alta-Vista.

I don't know what a Negroni is.

You could always look it up with Dogpile.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #113 on: July 01, 2015, 12:00:31 PM »
In many respects, Houston ISD, which covers all the "bad" parts of Houston and many of the fancy parts, is a very successful big-city school district, despite getting a tremendous number of baffled and scared refugee and immigrant children every year.

I went to public school in Texas (Austin)- if you were a high achieving student, the school was incredible. Tons of AP classes (Normal stuff like Statistics/Calculus AB/BC, Chemistry/Physics/Biology, Psychology/Government/Economics/World History/European History, Spanish/French/Latin, but also weird things like Studio Art and Art History); many students getting perfect scores on SAT, people going to Ivy Leagues for undergrad, people going to Tier 1 law schools later on etc (since many people went to Texas's public universities- because some of them are also excellent, rather than an expensive private undergrad).

But if you were a low achieving student; the school was absolute crap.  It was like a different world.  I had a friend from my neighborhood who I would have NEVER seen at school if I didn't make an effort because she was in different classes than me. And I would say her high school education was COMPLETELY different than mine.  She did still get into and go to a decent college, but the divide in quality of education was striking.


Maybe it was a similar divide, and they all just happen to be on the lower end- but I would have never thought New Jersey had an excellent public school system based on my cousins who went to school there (in multiple different cities, but all well-to-do). I would have called it average; I think I had more opportunity than they did and more opportunity to learn critical thinking vs. fact memorization. I certainly think higher of the big Texas public universities than I do of New Jersey public universities.  I do know Massachusetts has a great reputation for their schools.

Aren't most high schools crap for low-achieving students?  If you're not going to bother to study, you're not going to learn or pass classes in High School.  That's just how it is.  As for that High School you found, that's what I'm going to look for when I have kids.  I don't care about how poorly the under-acheivers are doing, it's all about how the top end is doing.

What is this 'study' of which you speak? Seriously. High School is so stupidly easy for anyone to pass so long as their home life is decent and they value the education somewhat. I may be an exception, but I got a full 5 on the AP-US exam without studying, taking notes, and mostly doodling in the back row. Took my AP-level math classes at the local community college.

I literally did not understand the questions asked on the AP Microeconomics exam (didn't take the course, but somebody told me to take the test anyways since I'd taken macroeconomics).

I got a 4 and got credit for it at Cornell.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #114 on: July 01, 2015, 12:05:48 PM »

Aren't most high schools crap for low-achieving students?  If you're not going to bother to study, you're not going to learn or pass classes in High School.  That's just how it is.  As for that High School you found, that's what I'm going to look for when I have kids.  I don't care about how poorly the under-acheivers are doing, it's all about how the top end is doing.

Some schools care more about bridging gaps and helping these students rise up a bit.

Sure, and that's a valid venture for High Schools to do and it's primarily what schools are judged on, but that won't be where my kids are (with any luck) and as such the standard "Low COLA areas have crappy schools" isn't really relevant because the primary measures of success are judging how the masses are doing, not the top 5%.

Additionally, I've seen first hand a low CoLA with exceptional schools, so I'm not buying into the myth that I need to live in NJ or MA and pay through the nose or my kids will be retarded.

infogoon

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #115 on: July 01, 2015, 01:25:28 PM »
Jokes have punch lines.  You know full well the type of meme I posted was meant to convey inter-generational sarcasm/economic commentary where the viewer says, "Oh, it's funny because it's so true!  Those guys did have it better than their parents and us!!"  ...Which spreads another thin layer of bullshittery over peoples' eyes.

There is an element of truth to it. My father has a high school education, but that was enough for a job in the local widget factory that could support a family (including two kids, a housewife, and a house in the 'burbs) for thirty years until he retired. Those days are gone.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #116 on: July 01, 2015, 01:30:27 PM »
In many respects, Houston ISD, which covers all the "bad" parts of Houston and many of the fancy parts, is a very successful big-city school district, despite getting a tremendous number of baffled and scared refugee and immigrant children every year.

I went to public school in Texas (Austin)- if you were a high achieving student, the school was incredible. Tons of AP classes (Normal stuff like Statistics/Calculus AB/BC, Chemistry/Physics/Biology, Psychology/Government/Economics/World History/European History, Spanish/French/Latin, but also weird things like Studio Art and Art History); many students getting perfect scores on SAT, people going to Ivy Leagues for undergrad, people going to Tier 1 law schools later on etc (since many people went to Texas's public universities- because some of them are also excellent, rather than an expensive private undergrad).

But if you were a low achieving student; the school was absolute crap.  It was like a different world.  I had a friend from my neighborhood who I would have NEVER seen at school if I didn't make an effort because she was in different classes than me. And I would say her high school education was COMPLETELY different than mine.  She did still get into and go to a decent college, but the divide in quality of education was striking.


Maybe it was a similar divide, and they all just happen to be on the lower end- but I would have never thought New Jersey had an excellent public school system based on my cousins who went to school there (in multiple different cities, but all well-to-do). I would have called it average; I think I had more opportunity than they did and more opportunity to learn critical thinking vs. fact memorization. I certainly think higher of the big Texas public universities than I do of New Jersey public universities.  I do know Massachusetts has a great reputation for their schools.

Had a very similar experience in a suburb near Dallas. My high school experience was excellent, though some folks I knew growing up (that were in regular classes in high school) didn't feel the same way.

infogoon

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #117 on: July 01, 2015, 01:36:13 PM »
But seriously: I live in a town with more PhD's per capita than yours (everyone here knows at least one rocket scientist) and enough transplants to ensure diverse viewpoints and an interesting culture. It's not cheap because it sucks; it's cheap because it's only a quarter million people with tons of room to build. And because all the people in Northern Virginia whose jobs were shipped here by the Army had the same idea you do, the feds had to jack the locality pay inordinately high (near DC levels) to get enough workers. The bottom line for me is, high pay, low costs, great QOL.

And the only Division I hockey program in the South. Go Chargers!

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #118 on: July 01, 2015, 02:00:51 PM »
Back to the original post.

It's always been hard to get ahead. You do it one step at a time. If your field isn't hiring, you get more skills. You send out more resumes and deliver pizza or bartender to pay the bills. Very difficult but you can do it.
If you can't save money, you cut expenses or get a second job or roommate. Quit the coffee out, meals out, drinks out, ( in fact alcohol and cigarettes are not essentials),  another pair of shoes, manicures and so on.

Probably the most unhelpful is brainwashing yourself into thinking it is harder for you than everyone else had it.  With the Internet, options to move anywhere in the world or country, ability to job network on the internet like never before, in some ways it is easier than ever. And in some ways harder with the competition. So make yourself stand out and give yourself the best chance of success. But don't let yourself slip into a pity party.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #119 on: July 02, 2015, 11:20:55 AM »
Probably the most unhelpful is brainwashing yourself into thinking it is harder for you than everyone else had it.
In fairness, there are scenarios where that really is the case, and as far as people finishing college today, it is statistically likely. Yet we all agree that everyone still has options and many of our setbacks are self-administered. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

If anything, the current structural issues that really *do* make shit harder for millennials should be viewed as a reason to double down on controlling the things they can, instead of throwing their hands in the air and living (only) for the moment.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #120 on: July 02, 2015, 11:39:28 AM »
You are right, but it is hard for me to feel too sorry when as soon as I was old enough I left my foster family and worked full time while attending nursing school full time. It tends to make me unsympathetic when I see excess all around me.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #121 on: July 02, 2015, 04:10:09 PM »
Interesting! And nobody today does that, making you better than all people born between 1980 and 2000?

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #122 on: July 02, 2015, 06:44:54 PM »
Interesting! And nobody today does that, making you better than all people born between 1980 and 2000?

If that was directed at me it was cruel and insensitive. I don't think I am better, I just would never think I was entitled to most of the things the article author describes. Did you read the article? 

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #123 on: July 02, 2015, 06:53:05 PM »
I can totally relate to certain aspects of the article. I think there is more pressure now to "follow your dream" and millenials are realizing that's a bad idea if you want to stay solvent. There is also more pressure to be a consumer.
When I graduated from college in 2004 retail jobs were plentiful but my co-workers kept asking me why I had a retail job since I had a college degree. I had no idea how to get an office job. My family had encouraged me to take 100k out in student loans because when I graduated I could easily pay it off. It took me about 2 years to realize that I wasn't going to be able to pay my debts at $8 an hour. I decided to get a masters degree in accounting and I was strongly discouraged. People told me that grad school was unnecessary because the economy was booming. Also they were surprised I chose accounting because I was an "activist" and should I stay an "activist." Because activism pays so well (sarcasm).

I didn't understand why but when I was looking for jobs in fall of 2007 it was like the tide had gone out. There were 3 jobs that were hiring through my school ( a top tier school no less). I got two job interviews and took the only job I was offered. I started in June 2008. I wasn't laid off until January 2010 and I was blessed that I had enough experience to get another job 9 months later. Now everyone congratulates me for my great choices, but it really wasn't easy to go against the grain.
I've lost dates because I work in accounting ( as opposed to something "cool") and been accused of being "corporate." I say FU, I work for the government!

FWIW there are some schools in Northern Virginia that are truly terrible.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #124 on: July 03, 2015, 04:54:47 AM »
The thing that strikes me about these pretty regular articles that appear is that in the main they are written by journalists or writers.

Well that is definitely an occupation that has seen some of the most dramatic changes in terms of earning power and job security over the past couple of decades. The rise of free content, the decline of print media, the difficulty in monetising web digital product and the sheer volume of content now available with the untrained writer being able to publish at the push of a button has no doubt devastated a career path that was already starting from a point of low security and wages.

Couple to this my general view that such a career choice comes with fairly high incidental costs, living in a hip area of HCOL cities, hanging in the right places, wearing the right stuff etc etc. Then i guess from their point of view they have had a pretty shitty end of the stick.

However if these articles were written by IT engineers, or accountants, or doctors or any other number of occupations then i'm guessing we would see a very different view of how things were panning out. Its just that in the main the 'voices' of these generations are living a life somewhat disconnected from the very people they think they are representing?

Just my view i could be completely wrong.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #125 on: July 03, 2015, 08:39:16 AM »
The thing that strikes me about these pretty regular articles that appear is that in the main they are written by journalists or writers.

Well that is definitely an occupation that has seen some of the most dramatic changes in terms of earning power and job security over the past couple of decades. The rise of free content, the decline of print media, the difficulty in monetising web digital product and the sheer volume of content now available with the untrained writer being able to publish at the push of a button has no doubt devastated a career path that was already starting from a point of low security and wages.
No one of any generation thoughtful enough to fancy themselves a "writer" should think writing is the path to riches, or even solvency. It's always been like sports, where a very, very few play for the money, and the vast majority play because they love it. From starving left bank writers to modern bloggers, writing has never been a solid career choice from a financial perspective.

It's true that a lot has changed in "journalism" over the last 15 years because the public has been trained that all content should be free, but I don't think there was ever a time when journaling or writing your opinions in the public square was considered a reliable career path.

Quote
Couple to this my general view that such a career choice comes with fairly high incidental costs, living in a hip area of HCOL cities, hanging in the right places, wearing the right stuff etc etc. Then i guess from their point of view they have had a pretty shitty end of the stick.
I'll disagree with this too. If you want to write, the opportunity to do so with almost NO associated costs has never been greater. It's totally possible (not common but possible) to monetize a freaking twitter feed that you maintain from the middle of nowhere. I make money writing, and I do all of it from home, mostly in sweat pants. So, hipster cred is not required. The authors spending decisions have nothing to do with what was necessary for her career as a freelance writer and everything to do with some crazy perception of a lifestyle she "deserved" to have.

Rural

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #126 on: July 03, 2015, 10:33:24 AM »
In many respects, Houston ISD, which covers all the "bad" parts of Houston and many of the fancy parts, is a very successful big-city school district, despite getting a tremendous number of baffled and scared refugee and immigrant children every year.

I went to public school in Texas (Austin)- if you were a high achieving student, the school was incredible. Tons of AP classes (Normal stuff like Statistics/Calculus AB/BC, Chemistry/Physics/Biology, Psychology/Government/Economics/World History/European History, Spanish/French/Latin, but also weird things like Studio Art and Art History); many students getting perfect scores on SAT, people going to Ivy Leagues for undergrad, people going to Tier 1 law schools later on etc (since many people went to Texas's public universities- because some of them are also excellent, rather than an expensive private undergrad).

But if you were a low achieving student; the school was absolute crap.  It was like a different world.  I had a friend from my neighborhood who I would have NEVER seen at school if I didn't make an effort because she was in different classes than me. And I would say her high school education was COMPLETELY different than mine.  She did still get into and go to a decent college, but the divide in quality of education was striking.


Maybe it was a similar divide, and they all just happen to be on the lower end- but I would have never thought New Jersey had an excellent public school system based on my cousins who went to school there (in multiple different cities, but all well-to-do). I would have called it average; I think I had more opportunity than they did and more opportunity to learn critical thinking vs. fact memorization. I certainly think higher of the big Texas public universities than I do of New Jersey public universities.  I do know Massachusetts has a great reputation for their schools.

Aren't most high schools crap for low-achieving students?  If you're not going to bother to study, you're not going to learn or pass classes in High School.  That's just how it is.  As for that High School you found, that's what I'm going to look for when I have kids.  I don't care about how poorly the under-acheivers are doing, it's all about how the top end is doing.

What is this 'study' of which you speak? Seriously. High School is so stupidly easy for anyone to pass so long as their home life is decent and they value the education somewhat. I may be an exception, but I got a full 5 on the AP-US exam without studying, taking notes, and mostly doodling in the back row. Took my AP-level math classes at the local community college.

I literally did not understand the questions asked on the AP Microeconomics exam (didn't take the course, but somebody told me to take the test anyways since I'd taken macroeconomics).

I got a 4 and got credit for it at Cornell.


A prime example of the reason most college professors cringe when they see a student in a step-beyond-intro course with AP credit on their transcript. The odds that student will be ignorant and arrogant are about 10 to 1, while the odds they can pass the course are low.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 10:35:19 AM by Rural »

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #127 on: July 06, 2015, 12:23:37 PM »
A prime example of the reason most college professors cringe when they see a student in a step-beyond-intro course with AP credit on their transcript. The odds that student will be ignorant and arrogant are about 10 to 1, while the odds they can pass the course are low.
Is that so?
I tested out of Calc I and was halfway through Calc II before I encountered anything I didn't already know. Was my crappy public high school education better than I thought?

I also passed three other AP tests but they just cleared up electives for my EE degree so I can't really comment there - I didn't take anything directly related for a while after that.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #128 on: July 06, 2015, 12:53:56 PM »
Every Millennial that I know are hustling all the time, and have at least three regular streams of income.  Notice I said regular, not large or actually dependable.  None of them like not having those secure weekly or bi-weekly paychecks that their grandparents had, but I don't think that any of them actually think that they are being singled out, since several of them saw their own 'rents lose those same weekly paychecks during the past decade or so.

Still, in many ways I think that Millennials have advantages that Xer's did not. Particularly the 'sharing society' that grants them occasional access to resources they otherwise could not reasonablely expect to afford.  For example; Zipcar & RelayRides for a weekend roadtrip, Uber & Lyft for a ride to a part of their city they can't reasonablely take public transit to, or for when they missed their bus/train to work.  AirBNB for trips to another city they otherwise couldn't afford to sleep in, etc.  I think more of this is yet to come, and private car ownership will continue to decrease even among older generations as self-driving cars become common outside of California.

If I thought I could do without two cars for my family of seven, I'd sell one in a heartbeat, and replace it with...nothing.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #129 on: July 06, 2015, 05:17:41 PM »
A prime example of the reason most college professors cringe when they see a student in a step-beyond-intro course with AP credit on their transcript. The odds that student will be ignorant and arrogant are about 10 to 1, while the odds they can pass the course are low.
Is that so?
I tested out of Calc I and was halfway through Calc II before I encountered anything I didn't already know. Was my crappy public high school education better than I thought?

I also passed three other AP tests but they just cleared up electives for my EE degree so I can't really comment there - I didn't take anything directly related for a while after that.


I'm not a math prof, so I don't know for sure, but I have heard that that the Calc. test is better than most. So it could've been that. However, if you made a 4 or 5 on the AP Calc. test, then, yes, your crappy public high school education was better than most.*




* Spoken by a product of a (not so crappy) public high school in the deep south - a long time ago)

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #130 on: July 07, 2015, 07:12:36 AM »
Every Millennial that I know are hustling all the time, and have at least three regular streams of income.  Notice I said regular, not large or actually dependable.  None of them like not having those secure weekly or bi-weekly paychecks that their grandparents had, but I don't think that any of them actually think that they are being singled out, since several of them saw their own 'rents lose those same weekly paychecks during the past decade or so.


Anecdotes aren't data. My antecdote would be the opposite of yours- I don't know a single one who is doing this.  All my friends and family who are around my age have steady jobs. Normal ones, just like Gen Xers or Boomers (who aren't retired yet). Some of them have good jobs, some of them have crappy jobs.  But I actually can't think of anyone who is working 2 jobs.   Some of this is self-selection, as most of my friends went to college; but not all my family did, and they all have a regular jobs too.  The people I know don't all live in any one particular region, so this is a cross-country population.

Some have been laid off at various times (me too), just like Gen Xers or Boomers. Most have found work again by now that the economy is better.


Now, none of the millenials I know are still in college (I'm an old millenial) and I imagine, like when I was in college, they might have multiple part time jobs; but I don't expect college kids to have a career yet.



« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 07:14:37 AM by iowajes »

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #131 on: July 07, 2015, 07:19:28 AM »
FWIW, The Mason Dixon line may be above Maryland, but the all important "sweet tea" line is somewhere around the middle of Virginia (between Charlottesville and Roanoke), at least as of 20 years ago.
Crazy coincidence, but just last night at a bar one of my friends was making a similar assertion... he says the actual M-D line should be I-40 because of sweet tea.

Can you explain what is sweet tea? In my Minnesotan mind it means adding honey to otherwise perfectly delicious black tea (I love tea). Is there a different way it's prepared down south?

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #132 on: July 07, 2015, 07:37:15 AM »
In many respects, Houston ISD, which covers all the "bad" parts of Houston and many of the fancy parts, is a very successful big-city school district, despite getting a tremendous number of baffled and scared refugee and immigrant children every year.

I went to public school in Texas (Austin)- if you were a high achieving student, the school was incredible. Tons of AP classes (Normal stuff like Statistics/Calculus AB/BC, Chemistry/Physics/Biology, Psychology/Government/Economics/World History/European History, Spanish/French/Latin, but also weird things like Studio Art and Art History); many students getting perfect scores on SAT, people going to Ivy Leagues for undergrad, people going to Tier 1 law schools later on etc (since many people went to Texas's public universities- because some of them are also excellent, rather than an expensive private undergrad).

But if you were a low achieving student; the school was absolute crap.  It was like a different world.  I had a friend from my neighborhood who I would have NEVER seen at school if I didn't make an effort because she was in different classes than me. And I would say her high school education was COMPLETELY different than mine.  She did still get into and go to a decent college, but the divide in quality of education was striking.


Maybe it was a similar divide, and they all just happen to be on the lower end- but I would have never thought New Jersey had an excellent public school system based on my cousins who went to school there (in multiple different cities, but all well-to-do). I would have called it average; I think I had more opportunity than they did and more opportunity to learn critical thinking vs. fact memorization. I certainly think higher of the big Texas public universities than I do of New Jersey public universities.  I do know Massachusetts has a great reputation for their schools.

Aren't most high schools crap for low-achieving students?  If you're not going to bother to study, you're not going to learn or pass classes in High School.  That's just how it is.  As for that High School you found, that's what I'm going to look for when I have kids.  I don't care about how poorly the under-acheivers are doing, it's all about how the top end is doing.

What is this 'study' of which you speak? Seriously. High School is so stupidly easy for anyone to pass so long as their home life is decent and they value the education somewhat. I may be an exception, but I got a full 5 on the AP-US exam without studying, taking notes, and mostly doodling in the back row. Took my AP-level math classes at the local community college.

I literally did not understand the questions asked on the AP Microeconomics exam (didn't take the course, but somebody told me to take the test anyways since I'd taken macroeconomics).

I got a 4 and got credit for it at Cornell.


A prime example of the reason most college professors cringe when they see a student in a step-beyond-intro course with AP credit on their transcript. The odds that student will be ignorant and arrogant are about 10 to 1, while the odds they can pass the course are low.

I just used it to get out of a "distribution" credit requirement. I did actually know calculus and physics, which were more relevant. And the people coming into the engineering school who hadn't taken the Calc BC test or equivalent were way behind. (You got kicked out of multivariable calculus the first semester if you got under a 30 on the first prelim. That was a substantial number of people.)

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #133 on: July 07, 2015, 07:58:41 AM »
However if these articles were written by IT engineers, or accountants, or doctors or any other number of occupations then i'm guessing we would see a very different view of how things were panning out. Its just that in the main the 'voices' of these generations are living a life somewhat disconnected from the very people they think they are representing?

Just my view i could be completely wrong.

I think there's a lot of truth to that.  I have a BS in accounting from an excellent undergrad school and an MBA from a middling public school, and have been in the workforce since 2006 (spent 2 years in the Navy after graduation).  In that time, I've doubled my income.  My wife has a BS in finance from another excellent undergrad school and has been working since 2005, and has also doubled her income.  We're both at the bleeding edge of Millenials (born in '82 and '83) but we've done very well for ourselves so far.  I've been laid off 1x from a large failing company, had another role before my exit date, and then left that role quickly and went to work for another large F100 company. 

I get dozens of emails a month from recruiters looking to fill jobs in my discipline and area (Chicagoland) and from hiring people to work for me I know it's a tough market out there for people worth a shit.  In this area, if you've got a few years of experience and can demonstrate success (have been promoted at least 1x at a company) you can command $80k+ with a BS in either finance or accounting. 

I do gather it's very hard to break into the field however (my wife got in due to an internship and some connections, I got in due to my connection with my wife.)  Once you're in though, as long as you don't fuck it up you're golden.

And, quite frankly, since I went into the Navy after college, I'm probably on the lower end of the payscale for people I graduated with.  Of ~150 accounting grads my year, probably 120 went into Big 4/Big 8 accounting, and I bet most of those people who have followed a similar career track as me (ie, didn't take time off to have a baby or intentionally downshift for quality of life, etc) probably make more than I do and may be a level above me. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 08:01:59 AM by Chris22 »

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #134 on: July 07, 2015, 08:05:43 AM »
FWIW, The Mason Dixon line may be above Maryland, but the all important "sweet tea" line is somewhere around the middle of Virginia (between Charlottesville and Roanoke), at least as of 20 years ago.
Crazy coincidence, but just last night at a bar one of my friends was making a similar assertion... he says the actual M-D line should be I-40 because of sweet tea.

Can you explain what is sweet tea? In my Minnesotan mind it means adding honey to otherwise perfectly delicious black tea (I love tea). Is there a different way it's prepared down south?

Sweet tea is black tea that's been sweetened with white sugar (not honey!) and served over ice, or at least cold. It should have enough sugar to rival the level of sweetness of Coke (excuse me: "pop" to you weirdo Northerners). It is sometimes garnished or served with lemon wedges, which some people like to squeeze into the tea.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #135 on: July 07, 2015, 08:33:47 AM »
Can you explain what is sweet tea? In my Minnesotan mind it means adding honey to otherwise perfectly delicious black tea (I love tea). Is there a different way it's prepared down south?

Sweet tea is black tea that's been sweetened with white sugar (not honey!) and served over ice, or at least cold. It should have enough sugar to rival the level of sweetness of Coke (excuse me: "pop" to you weirdo Northerners). It is sometimes garnished or served with lemon wedges, which some people like to squeeze into the tea.

... add to this; Many people will say that sweet-tea should be sweet enough to 'hurt the teeth'.  For those that have never had it, it's a truly, incredibly sweet drink - shockingly so at first.  I've seen recipes with as much as 1/4 cup of sugar per pint-sized-glass of tea (more common would be 1-2 tablespoons sugar per pint).  It's also consumed in vast quantities in restaurants as the bottomless/unlimited-refill beverage of choice for many patrons, especially when eating such southern specialities as fried chicken, hush puppies and fried okra. 
On a completely unrelated note, the obesity epidemic is particularly bad in the south.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #136 on: July 07, 2015, 09:17:12 AM »

Sweet tea is black tea that's been sweetened with white sugar (not honey!) and served over ice, or at least cold. It should have enough sugar to rival the level of sweetness of Coke (excuse me: "pop" to you weirdo Northerners). It is sometimes garnished or served with lemon wedges, which some people like to squeeze into the tea.

It is also sweetened when the water is still hot, which allows more sugar to dissolve into it, almost making it into a syrup. 

Adding sugar when you serve is not the same thing, no matter how much you add.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #137 on: July 07, 2015, 09:26:13 AM »
... add to this; Many people will say that sweet-tea should be sweet enough to 'hurt the teeth'.  For those that have never had it, it's a truly, incredibly sweet drink - shockingly so at first.  I've seen recipes with as much as 1/4 cup of sugar per pint-sized-glass of tea (more common would be 1-2 tablespoons sugar per pint).  It's also consumed in vast quantities in restaurants as the bottomless/unlimited-refill beverage of choice for many patrons, especially when eating such southern specialities as fried chicken, hush puppies and fried okra. 
On a completely unrelated note, the obesity epidemic is particularly bad in the south.

It's funny 'cause it's true.

It is also sweetened when the water is still hot, which allows more sugar to dissolve into it, almost making it into a syrup. 

Adding sugar when you serve is not the same thing, no matter how much you add.

Thank you, that's important! In fact, here's a tip for all Northerners (especially ones working as waiters in restaurants): if a Southerner asks for sweet tea, please don't give him unsweet tea plus sugar packets. Instead, just tell him you don't have it; it will be kinder.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #138 on: July 07, 2015, 03:14:20 PM »
FWIW, The Mason Dixon line may be above Maryland, but the all important "sweet tea" line is somewhere around the middle of Virginia (between Charlottesville and Roanoke), at least as of 20 years ago.
Crazy coincidence, but just last night at a bar one of my friends was making a similar assertion... he says the actual M-D line should be I-40 because of sweet tea.


Can you explain what is sweet tea? In my Minnesotan mind it means adding honey to otherwise perfectly delicious black tea (I love tea). Is there a different way it's prepared down south?
Oh, yes. Southern sweet tea is an experience. Take hot brewed tea, stir in sugar till it will no longer dissolve, allow it to cool to room temp, add some ice and serve.  If you are an undiagnosed/borderline diabetic; this will kill you, but you will die happy.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #139 on: July 07, 2015, 03:48:25 PM »

Sweet tea is black tea that's been sweetened with white sugar (not honey!) and served over ice, or at least cold. It should have enough sugar to rival the level of sweetness of Coke (excuse me: "pop" to you weirdo Northerners). It is sometimes garnished or served with lemon wedges, which some people like to squeeze into the tea.

It is also sweetened when the water is still hot, which allows more sugar to dissolve into it, almost making it into a syrup. 

Adding sugar when you serve is not the same thing, no matter how much you add.

I completely forgot to add that I understand that it's an iced version of tea, lol. Good call on adding sugar while it is hot, that would make a lot of sense. I'm not a huge fan of sweetened tea, warm or hot, but next time I'm in the south, I'll try some. I'm guessing if I just order sweet tea at any eatery that I will be served this, or are there variations or a lingo that I should be aware of? 

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #140 on: July 07, 2015, 04:45:20 PM »

Sweet tea is black tea that's been sweetened with white sugar (not honey!) and served over ice, or at least cold. It should have enough sugar to rival the level of sweetness of Coke (excuse me: "pop" to you weirdo Northerners). It is sometimes garnished or served with lemon wedges, which some people like to squeeze into the tea.

It is also sweetened when the water is still hot, which allows more sugar to dissolve into it, almost making it into a syrup. 

Adding sugar when you serve is not the same thing, no matter how much you add.

I completely forgot to add that I understand that it's an iced version of tea, lol. Good call on adding sugar while it is hot, that would make a lot of sense. I'm not a huge fan of sweetened tea, warm or hot, but next time I'm in the south, I'll try some. I'm guessing if I just order sweet tea at any eatery that I will be served this, or are there variations or a lingo that I should be aware of?
It's pretty much all "sweet tea".  Sure, some places will do slight variations, and many (thousands) claim to have "the best sweat tea south of the Mason-Dixon", but its core charm is its simplicity.  The majority seem to be made with Lipton black tea bags and plain, everyday white sugar.  It's bordering on sacrilegious to use a blend of fancy loose-leaf teas and agave nectar or some alternative sweetener.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #141 on: July 07, 2015, 05:05:30 PM »

Sweet tea is black tea that's been sweetened with white sugar (not honey!) and served over ice, or at least cold. It should have enough sugar to rival the level of sweetness of Coke (excuse me: "pop" to you weirdo Northerners). It is sometimes garnished or served with lemon wedges, which some people like to squeeze into the tea.

It is also sweetened when the water is still hot, which allows more sugar to dissolve into it, almost making it into a syrup. 

Adding sugar when you serve is not the same thing, no matter how much you add.

I completely forgot to add that I understand that it's an iced version of tea, lol. Good call on adding sugar while it is hot, that would make a lot of sense. I'm not a huge fan of sweetened tea, warm or hot, but next time I'm in the south, I'll try some. I'm guessing if I just order sweet tea at any eatery that I will be served this, or are there variations or a lingo that I should be aware of?

Where I live, you can get sweet tea at any eatery worth going to, any many not worth it.  It's served at McDonald's and every other place I can think of.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #142 on: July 07, 2015, 05:38:39 PM »
Maybe it's because Atlanta is too cosmopolitan or something, but it is possible to occasionally get bad sweet tea (too weak or not sweet enough) around here.

If you happen to get some whereupon the first sip you don't think to yourself "holy shit, that's sweet!" then try again somewhere else.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #143 on: July 09, 2015, 08:41:46 AM »
On a completely unrelated note, the obesity epidemic is particularly bad in the south.
Are you trying to tell me that actions have consequences, and even small choices can add up to major differences in outcomes? I'm not sure this forum is the place for that kind of thinking.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #144 on: July 09, 2015, 11:59:05 AM »
On a completely unrelated note, the obesity epidemic is particularly bad in the south.
Are you trying to tell me that actions have consequences, and even small choices can add up to major differences in outcomes? I'm not sure this forum is the place for that kind of thinking.

Like I said, if you are an undiagnosed or borderline diabetic, a proper glass of sweet tea will kill you.  Most of the time, slowly.  Sometimes, though, it just puts you into a coma and kills you within the month.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #145 on: July 09, 2015, 03:53:10 PM »
and many (thousands) claim to have "the best sweat tea south of the Mason-Dixon",

That's pretty much what it tastes like to me, but I'm a Northerner. ;)

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #146 on: July 09, 2015, 04:05:06 PM »
I once forgot that you should never order tea in the south.  I was served a glass of brown hummingbird food.  I asked for water.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #147 on: July 09, 2015, 04:43:22 PM »
I love the logical progression of this thread.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #148 on: July 09, 2015, 06:29:17 PM »
I love the logical progression of this thread.

Yeah... I was born in 1986 but I can simultaneously see that many of the writers held up as emblematic of my generation are whiny brats and that the generations that came before us did a very fine job of screwing a lot of crap up that we will have to fix.  But, I don't feel entitled to anything for it.  I'll just fix it and move on.

Iced tea is a less inane topic.

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Re: Why can't millennials get ahead?
« Reply #149 on: July 09, 2015, 07:47:30 PM »

Yeah... I was born in 1986 but I can simultaneously see that many of the writers held up as emblematic of my generation are whiny brats and that the generations that came before us did a very fine job of screwing a lot of crap up that we will have to fix.  But, I don't feel entitled to anything for it.  I'll just fix it and move on.


But given the choice, would you choose to fix it, or break it more?