Author Topic: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK  (Read 13393 times)


misterhorsey

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2016, 12:45:14 AM »
Need someone english to interpret this and tell us whether it really is expensive to live in the UK or whether they are wasteful.  They certainly seem to think that they are doing it tough, and many of them don't go on holidays.

gooki

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2016, 01:14:43 AM »
My analysis of the first family. They're underpaid and 1/2 of one income goes to Childcare.

Pay to get hair cuts too often. Pay for luxuries like gym memberships they can't afford. Are carrying credit car balances. Cars seem unaffordable given their income.

On the plus side their housing costs are modest. And they're frugal on many other personal expenses. Food costs seem appropriate for a family of four.

Utilities seems high but can't compare as not broken down.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 01:23:27 AM by gooki »

SpreadsheetMan

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2016, 02:48:56 AM »
Their utility bills category is very high. My equivalent of that category (3 bedroom semi in a HCOL area) is just over £400pm excluding mobiles which they should be able to get for under £25pm each.

Car costs are high, but not if they are owned outright and that includes depreciation over (say) 8 years. Why both cars and £100 public transport? (only 1 car used regularly?)

Looks to me with a dose of budgeting / prioritizing they could pull that budget into the black, but long-term I agree with the poster that said that they are underpaid for their jobs - they should be able to get ahead, but not that far ahead on that income with that many children in an expensive area of the UK.

Butterfingers

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2016, 02:49:51 AM »
It's no coincidence that all but one of the families featured here are in the southeast of England (the most expensive region of the country). And it always shocks me to see how much people spend on their kids and their cars. My quick take below (warning: I like to swear):

The first family has
Quote
UTILITY BILLS (including gas, electric, home phone, mobile phones, broadband, insurance and council tax): £1,180.
HOLY SHIT.

Our total for everything in that category is £296 (we are a family of four, in a smaller house). Council tax £116, phones £21, broadband £18, gas & electric £92, water £42, no home phone, buildings insurance £7. No TV costs (don't know if TV is included in theirs).

As gooki says, their housing costs are reasonable (especially for fucking Surrey!). As s/he also says, their pay is low for the region. But even a modestly mustachian lifestyle could cut £1,000 off their monthly spend. Cut utilities by £600, gym £90, cars £300, hair £30, groceries £150. That's £1170 in savings right there. Throw the extra at the credit card until it's gone.

The second family is trickier. Their costs are already reasonably low (£900+ on a mortgage in Bromley is not absurd), and the combination of their low salaries and high childcare is hurting them. They may well be entitled to government help with childcare costs, which it looks like they are not currently getting. They could probably trim £200 from their budget, and once their credit card balance has gone in a few months that would give them £400 a month to play with. That's not bad considering where they live and how much they earn.

Family three could also trim their costs by £200–300 easily. Sky TV? Nope, sorry, you can't afford it. After-school club? I'd look very carefully at that. I raise my eyebrows at "surprise baby" – when you're done with kids then daddy has a quick trip to the hospital, snip, a couple of stitches, in and out in an afternoon.

Family four have no fucking excuse. They live in Glasgow, which has very reasonable housing costs, and a good income for the area.
Quote
CHILDREN’S CLUBS: £132.
CAR COSTS: £495 for a Ford Fiesta and a Nissan Micra.
GROCERIES: £664.
CLOTHES: £100.
CHRISTMAS AND BIRTHDAYS: £100.
FOOTBALL SEASON TICKET: £50.
GOING OUT (mainly weddings): £300.
Cars could be cut by £200, groceries by £250, clothes by £75, Christmas and birthdays by £75, and whatthefuckisthis THREE HUNDRED QUID A MONTH on weddings? Jesus, Mary and Joseph. This family could easily save £1,000 a month, and going properly mustachian would get them to £1,500. She could happily retire at 60, with him following a couple of years later.

People want lifestyles they can't afford. I do too. Yeah, it's not fair, yeah we got fucked by the baby boomers and privatisation of infrastructure and the dominance of the financial services industry and expensive university tuition and the hollowing out of our manufacturing and stagnating wages and rising costs. I have a lot of sympathy with a generation that will be less wealthy than the generation before. But you have to grow up enough to realise that if you can't afford something, you can't afford it. Cut your cloth accordingly.

Mr stuble

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2016, 02:59:30 AM »
You literally just beat me to posting this, I had the link copied to my clipboard and everything. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this!

ballisticbanana999

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2016, 03:24:53 AM »
The single biggest cost of nearly all of these is childcare. It seems that in some cases, it's not worth both of the parents working.

Squirrel away

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2016, 05:13:41 AM »
 I was rolling my eyes reading it. These people need a budget!:)

It's no coincidence that all but one of the families featured here are in the southeast of England (the most expensive region of the country). And it always shocks me to see how much people spend on their kids and their cars. My quick take below (warning: I like to swear):

The first family has
Quote
UTILITY BILLS (including gas, electric, home phone, mobile phones, broadband, insurance and council tax): £1,180.
HOLY SHIT.[/b]

Our total for everything in that category is £296 (we are a family of four, in a smaller house). Council tax £116, phones £21, broadband £18, gas & electric £92, water £42, no home phone, buildings insurance £7. No TV costs (don't know if TV is included in theirs).







Yes, that jumped out at me too. We don't have kids but our utility bills are almost at £500, we are in London, though.

frugledoc

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2016, 06:28:24 AM »
Some of them had 3 kids, the third being an accident because they are adult children and haven't heard of birth control.

Most of them live in the south of england, which is high cost.  Those salaries would be quite good for anywhere in the north of england, or scotland.

They all suffer from complainypants syndrome.  I want to give them a hug then smack them across the face. 

onehair

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2016, 07:28:36 AM »
Dumb question time: What are children's clubs?

former player

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2016, 07:38:31 AM »
Dumb question time: What are children's clubs?
I think, child care by another name?  Possibly involving some activity?

Butterfingers has the analysis right.  The other thing I would say is that most of these people are at the lower end of the professional/middle class occupation scale (eg. legal clerk not lawyer) and their individual incomes are not much removed from the average of about £26,000.  They only look as though they should be higher up the middle class scale because they are two income households, but most of the benefit of that is removed by child-care costs.

They all have seem to have more lifestyle aspiration - 3 kids, 2 cars, holidays abroad, shopping expeditions - than they do professional/income aspirations (nothing about more qualifications/future earning increases.  Despite that, they all seem reasonably responsible, and when the kids are old enough to need less expensive care and the mortgages are paid off they will be fine.

MostlyBearded

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2016, 09:33:22 AM »
Need someone english to interpret this and tell us whether it really is expensive to live in the UK or whether they are wasteful.  They certainly seem to think that they are doing it tough, and many of them don't go on holidays.

If I may...

A good rule of thumb is "If it's in the Mail, it's bullshit"

MgoSam

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2016, 11:39:36 AM »
Need someone english to interpret this and tell us whether it really is expensive to live in the UK or whether they are wasteful.  They certainly seem to think that they are doing it tough, and many of them don't go on holidays.

If I may...

A good rule of thumb is "If it's in the Mail, it's bullshit"

To Quote George Carlin, "It's bullshit...and it's bad for ya!"

misterhorsey

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2016, 04:52:41 AM »
Need someone english to interpret this and tell us whether it really is expensive to live in the UK or whether they are wasteful.  They certainly seem to think that they are doing it tough, and many of them don't go on holidays.

If I may...

A good rule of thumb is "If it's in the Mail, it's bullshit"

LOL.  Daily Mail has an online Australian version now. Just what we needed.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2016, 06:55:58 AM »
For the lower paid families, they are electing to stay in the HCOL South East rather than moving somewhere cheaper, earning very similar wages but not paying as much for housing and paid child care.

Although child care isn't cheap, I am led to believe that procreation is a foreseeable result of adult activity. Perhaps said adults could have saved in anticipation of these expensive years. I'd also hazard a guess that this is the first time these so-called adults have drawn up a 'budget'.

If you like the judgement analysis on this thread may I recommend http://simple-living-in-suffolk.co.uk/ with a search for 'Telegraph' or 'Daily Mail.'

Ermine is a legend and his rants at the misguided choices of others are a thing of beauty.

misterhorsey

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2016, 05:14:10 PM »
If you like the judgement analysis on this thread may I recommend http://simple-living-in-suffolk.co.uk/ with a search for 'Telegraph' or 'Daily Mail.'

Ermine is a legend and his rants at the misguided choices of others are a thing of beauty.

Just had a quick read, great writing and very entertaining.  Great to hear a english perspective.

vern

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2016, 09:00:15 PM »
We need to send Moe across the pond for some stooge slaps!

https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=u4ZgVRJ-H8U

Mark31

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2016, 10:01:16 PM »
Since when did forgoing foreign holidays become a sign of uncomfortable austerity?

All these people will be perfectly fine in a traditional retirement age sense. Life can often seem a bit hard when you’ve got young kids, money problems or not and they’re just having a whinge.

I don’t take issue with the couple having a surprise baby. The emotions involved make clear thinking difficult when it happens, and maybe they hadn’t decided to NOT have a third. I do take issue with “having to buy everything again” for the second baby. Babies need hardly anything, which they should realise having had two already, and as established parents they should surely be able to get hand me downs through their networks.

I also take issue with 100 pounds a month on Sky TV when they can only save 20 a month. Wankers! Most parents don’t get to go out to watch films, and that must have been one hell of a movie watching habit they had before kids.

It’s just a clickbait article, and I’ve done exactly what the authors intended, which was to visit the article and get angry about it.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2016, 11:56:26 PM »
I don’t take issue with the couple having a surprise baby.

I don't take issue with them having a third. I take issue with them choosing to (or failing to choose not to) and then complaining about how hard this has made their lives. Particularly with the 'having to buy everything else again'. 

They can make any choices that they like, but they need to accept the foreseeable consequences of this. They chose to have this child and chose to buy new stuff.

Eurotexan

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2016, 09:04:05 PM »
I read this too (went straight to the comments section of course) and especially found this interesting as I grew up in the UK.

Brits aren't much different from Americans in that there is a strong sense of entitlement to life's luxuries.

I was also shocked about the childcare costs and the complete and utter lack of budgeting.

Another Daily Mail 'sad face' article!

Cassie

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2016, 03:30:33 PM »
Expectations are too high.  when we were young with kids we drove 2 old cars and often only 1 worked, lived in old house, had old furniture, camping vacations, etc.  It takes time to acquire nicer things. 

StockBeard

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2016, 02:23:30 PM »
I don’t take issue with the couple having a surprise baby. The emotions involved make clear thinking difficult when it happens
I want to second that. Also, people's circumstances may vary on what background is on the "surprise" part. It doesn't necessarily mean they were acting like rabbits without any protection while singing "we have no money and love to live a risky life". Things are not all black or white :)

mwulff

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2016, 02:30:18 PM »
Is childcare really that expensive in the UK?

Also in the first family she should just sell a car, quit her job and take care of kids. Utility bill seems impossibly high?


Ohh and why are they saving in excess of 2500 pounds per year for christmas? That's just insane.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 02:32:07 PM by mwulff »

Friar

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2016, 02:46:37 PM »
What a great find, thanks for sharing!

My favourite part of the article was this:

Quote
I used to love buying clothes from High Street stores like Next. I wonder what that old me would think now, watching me buying outfits at the supermarket — literally piling them on top of the sell-by date bread and dented beans.

I buy almost all of my clothes now from Sainsbury's. I think the quality for the price you're paying is just fantastic. For example, a decent, soft T-shirt for £5. Jeans for £20. Even pairs of Chinos for ~£20.

It's much better value than places like Next and, if my partner is to be believed (she works for a supermarket clothing department), it's all made in the same factory to similar specs anyway.

kayvent

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2016, 06:35:28 PM »
Some of them had 3 kids, the third being an accident because they are adult children and haven't heard of birth control.

Birth control isn't 100% effective mate. If you have twenty-five couples who all use condoms and each use them perfectly (i.e. use them every time, properly apply them, and properly remove them), the last set of statistics I heard found that one out of the twenty-five couples experience a pregnancy on average.

MrsPete

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2016, 07:26:13 AM »
Several thoughts:

- Most of these couples have credit card debt, so they're still paying for yesterday's luxuries.  No wonder they can't conveniently manage today's splurges.  Take away that one item, and they'd have some breathing room -- yet several of them are in the negative each month, so they're probably adding to that bill.

- Most of them are paying child care costs, which can feel suffocating -- but it's only a few years out of your whole life.  We all go through expensive periods and less expensive periods in our lives. 

- I think only one couple mentioned the British government's child-supplement (paid per child to British parents) as income.  While it's not a huge amount, it's no-effort income -- enough to feed a small child, enough to put a dent in what it costs to feed an older child.  Overlooking this makes me wonder just how careful these families were in reporting their financial details. 

- The international vacations thing is viewed differently in Britain.  Remember, they're an island about the size of some US states.  They can literally be in another country in just a couple hours.  As a result of their geography, they travel internationally more frequently /less expensively than we Americans. 

- These folks are feeling deprived because they're comparing themselves to the "have it all" standard.  They expect that on a middle-class income, they should be able to have a nice house, two nice cars, several kids, plus meals out and fancy vacations ... all while saving for the future.  If they were to look at what they actually have:  Nice housing, food on the table, and income each month, they'd realize that they're actually far, far ahead of a whole lot of people. 

MrsPete

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2016, 07:34:29 AM »
Birth control isn't 100% effective mate. If you have twenty-five couples who all use condoms and each use them perfectly (i.e. use them every time, properly apply them, and properly remove them), the last set of statistics I heard found that one out of the twenty-five couples experience a pregnancy on average.
Eh, not so much.  When used properly, birth control is pretty effective; problem is, too many people don't use it every time and/or ignore the details about proper use.  Statistics also tell us that older birth control users and users with higher education tend to experience far fewer "mistakes"; thus, it's safe to say that a lot of user-error is going on. 

My RN daughter worked at her college health center while she was in school, and she says that ignorance about birth control is rampant -- even among college students, whom you'd expect to be intelligent!  For example, she says the vast majority of girls using birth control don't know that a round of antibiotics renders birth control pills ineffective for the next month, don't realize that taking it the same time every day really matters, etc.  If you don't learn how to use the items effectively, it's not fair to say that the birth control failed.  It's more accurate to say that the users failed to follow directions. 

MgoSam

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2016, 10:43:39 AM »
I don't live in the UK nor do I have a spouse or children, so I can't say I know what these people are going under.

The one thing I will say is that way too many people live a lifestyle that they think they should be able to afford, but cannot. TV, among other things, has warped reality for a lot of people.

I remember when the Iphone came out, I was in college and people talked about how it was cool, but everyone just shook their head at the cost and the monthly contract fees. Only a few went out and bought smartphone. I haven't been on a college campus in some years but it's not hard to imagine that the situation has flipped, everyone has smartphones and only a few people don't.

Yes, salaries have been stagnant for the longest time, but that doesn't mean that you should be going out to eat several times a week. It doesn't mean that you have to say yes to every single happy hour. Heck I make a good living and I hardly ever drink due to sugar/calories and the cost.

And if all your peers are eating out and living extravagantly, guess what? YOU DON"T HAVE TO FOLLOW THEIR LEAD! So what if you're different, in time you may realize that that was the mature thing to do. Parents sometimes tell their kids, "Well if ___ jumped off a bridge would you?" I think this is a good question to ask adults.

kayvent

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2016, 03:58:13 PM »
I don't live in the UK nor do I have a spouse or children, so I can't say I know what these people are going under.

The one thing I will say is that way too many people live a lifestyle that they think they should be able to afford, but cannot. TV, among other things, has warped reality for a lot of people.

I remember when the Iphone came out, I was in college and people talked about how it was cool, but everyone just shook their head at the cost and the monthly contract fees. Only a few went out and bought smartphone. I haven't been on a college campus in some years but it's not hard to imagine that the situation has flipped, everyone has smartphones and only a few people don't.

I stayed frozen for awhile, two back-to-back 3-year contract for two feature phones, from 2011 to 2015. Don't do the math! When I pulled my head up, I suspected to see a world where the iPhone had gone done in price by 200$ and phone plans had gravitated downwards.......I was gravely mistaken. And because I missed the bandwagon, I looked at my friends in awe, surprise, and disgust when they would have an iPhone or top model Samsung and paid 199$ "for the phone" and the cheapest 2-year plan was 130$/month with only 2GB of data.

They are incredibly remarkable devices. Something stronger than tens of thousands of computers from just a few decades ago. Something with enough storage to fit every written book every made. But at the price of them....I'd need an extra zero somewhere in my paycheque to justify buying one ("I had to get it, the webpage that shows my account balance can't handle that many commas!")

Quote
Yes, salaries have been stagnant for the longest time, but that doesn't mean that you should be going out to eat several times a week. It doesn't mean that you have to say yes to every single happy hour. Heck I make a good living and I hardly ever drink due to sugar/calories and the cost.

Ish. Generally they have gone up over time in the developed world when factoring in transfer payments and health coverage. If Uncle Sam or Boss Fred is suddenly footing an amount equal to about 10% of your salary to pay for your healthcare and/or childcare and you're wage has stayed stagnant relative to inflation, you functionally have a higher salary.

You also have the issue that there has been rampant deflation in many luxury consumables' costs (tvs, dirt trikes, computers, exotic/imported food, diamonds etc...). As the calculations for inflation don't generally look at the quality of items in a basket of goods, I'd contest whether a stagnant salary matters or not.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 04:02:42 PM by kayvent »

Goldielocks

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2016, 01:32:00 AM »
Several thoughts:

- The international vacations thing is viewed differently in Britain.  Remember, they're an island about the size of some US states.  They can literally be in another country in just a couple hours.  As a result of their geography, they travel internationally more frequently /less expensively than we Americans. 


Did you forget that you can drive to Canada?   

cerat0n1a

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2016, 03:43:22 AM »
- The international vacations thing is viewed differently in Britain.  Remember, they're an island about the size of some US states.  They can literally be in another country in just a couple hours.  As a result of their geography, they travel internationally more frequently /less expensively than we Americans. 

Brexit and the weakening of the pound has changed things somewhat, but I can get to probably thirty countries more cheaply than I can visit my parents in another part of England - and hotels, restaurants etc. will cost less. For most of those places, the door to door travel time won't be much different. One of the cliches about Aussies/Kiwis/SAffers where I work is that they all spend their weekends visiting other countries. Taking your summer holiday in Britain rather than France or the med is maybe a bit of a middle class thing to do.

Making Cookies

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2016, 09:26:25 AM »
Several thoughts:

- The international vacations thing is viewed differently in Britain.  Remember, they're an island about the size of some US states.  They can literally be in another country in just a couple hours.  As a result of their geography, they travel internationally more frequently /less expensively than we Americans. 


Did you forget that you can drive to Canada?

I could but it is so far across the continent from me that I wouldn't.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2016, 09:49:14 AM »
Several thoughts:

- The international vacations thing is viewed differently in Britain.  Remember, they're an island about the size of some US states.  They can literally be in another country in just a couple hours.  As a result of their geography, they travel internationally more frequently /less expensively than we Americans. 


Did you forget that you can drive to Canada?

It's physically possible except from Hawaii, if you're willing to spend two to three days of solid driving, one-way, and pay for an extra night or two of accommodations traveling in each direction.

Although most Canadians do live within a day's drive of the US border because of climate and geography, the reverse is not true. Most Americans do not live within easy driving distance of any international border. Nor are there effective travel options by rail, bus, or any form of mass transit besides air travel.

From where I live, the closest major Canadian city is a little under 24 hours of driving time away. So I can spend two nights on the road in each direction, for a total of six days travel time, or try to do the run in two days and arrive exhausted although I do have the option of getting a motel room and sleeping in a bed after a full day of driving. There are no rail or bus options that can get me to any point in Canada without spending at least two nights on the train or bus. If I go the other way, I can be in a big city in Mexico in about 5 hours by car, but there are no bus or train options. The Mexican city in question is not generally considered a tourist destination. No high speed rail connections exist to other countries from any point in the US. Only one "high speed" rail line exists in the nation, connecting some cities on the East Coast, but it is relatively primitive: the maximum speed is still only about 150 kph (as opposed to 225 kph on HS1 although the theoretical maximum is said to be something insane like 320 kph).

By contrast, London to Paris is about 4.5 hours by high speed rail. There are regular rail options to Edinburgh and Cardiff that are less than 6 hours apiece. Once HS2 goes in, there will be more high-speed rail options and rail travel will become as efficient within England as it is to Belgium or Switzerland. Within the European continent there is a great deal of high speed rail connectivity. It's due to the population density, the willingness of organizers to work with people who live or own property in the path of the development, and very little public patience for NIMBY-ism.

It's not that I never travel to Canada: I do. But it's far cheaper to fly.

Guses

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2016, 10:31:40 AM »
Some of them had 3 kids, the third being an accident because they are adult children and haven't heard of birth control.

Birth control isn't 100% effective mate. If you have twenty-five couples who all use condoms and each use them perfectly (i.e. use them every time, properly apply them, and properly remove them), the last set of statistics I heard found that one out of the twenty-five couples experience a pregnancy on average.

Over what time period?

Depending on this its either not so bad or absolutely horrendous in terms of effectiveness.

Goldielocks

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2016, 03:40:54 PM »
Several thoughts:

- The international vacations thing is viewed differently in Britain.  Remember, they're an island about the size of some US states.  They can literally be in another country in just a couple hours.  As a result of their geography, they travel internationally more frequently /less expensively than we Americans. 


Did you forget that you can drive to Canada?

I could but it is so far across the continent from me that I wouldn't.

Um, Mexico then?

kayvent

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2016, 07:15:25 PM »
Several thoughts:

- The international vacations thing is viewed differently in Britain.  Remember, they're an island about the size of some US states.  They can literally be in another country in just a couple hours.  As a result of their geography, they travel internationally more frequently /less expensively than we Americans. 


Did you forget that you can drive to Canada?

I could but it is so far across the continent from me that I wouldn't.

Um, Mexico then?

The trouble with planning a trip to Mexico is that in a few months there will be a wall in the way.

JrDoctor

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2016, 03:54:56 AM »
The predominant problem here is none of these families seem to have thought they might need to save some cash before they start procreating.  I'm 26 and part of the stache is earmarked to help support having children and surviving on one wage for a while. 

Furthermore housing is off the hook down south, unnafordable, I earnt £24000, 1/14th post tax of what a bog standard four bedroom house will cost you down south.

I mean the first family, 40 and 35 and all they have a house with a mortgage but seemingly no investment income.  What were they doing for the ~10 years pre family?

kayvent

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2016, 05:25:06 AM »
The predominant problem here is none of these families seem to have thought they might need to save some cash before they start procreating.  I'm 26 and part of the stache is earmarked to help support having children and surviving on one wage for a while. 

Furthermore housing is off the hook down south, unnafordable, I earnt £24000, 1/14th post tax of what a bog standard four bedroom house will cost you down south.

I mean the first family, 40 and 35 and all they have a house with a mortgage but seemingly no investment income.  What were they doing for the ~10 years pre family?

Depending on where one lives, children don't cost too much so I'm iffy about the need of "save some cash before they start procreating." With say tax write-offs and other benefits, some people in some times in their life actually make money off of having children.

JrDoctor

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2016, 05:32:52 AM »
The predominant problem here is none of these families seem to have thought they might need to save some cash before they start procreating.  I'm 26 and part of the stache is earmarked to help support having children and surviving on one wage for a while. 

Furthermore housing is off the hook down south, unnafordable, I earnt £24000, 1/14th post tax of what a bog standard four bedroom house will cost you down south.

I mean the first family, 40 and 35 and all they have a house with a mortgage but seemingly no investment income.  What were they doing for the ~10 years pre family?

Depending on where one lives, children don't cost too much so I'm iffy about the need of "save some cash before they start procreating." With say tax write-offs and other benefits, some people in some times in their life actually make money off of having children.
I dont know if you get many tax write offs for children in the UK.  You can get childcare vouchers with your wage gross before tax (but only if you earn <£50,000)

kayvent

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2016, 10:22:10 AM »
The predominant problem here is none of these families seem to have thought they might need to save some cash before they start procreating.  I'm 26 and part of the stache is earmarked to help support having children and surviving on one wage for a while. 

Furthermore housing is off the hook down south, unnafordable, I earnt £24000, 1/14th post tax of what a bog standard four bedroom house will cost you down south.

I mean the first family, 40 and 35 and all they have a house with a mortgage but seemingly no investment income.  What were they doing for the ~10 years pre family?

Depending on where one lives, children don't cost too much so I'm iffy about the need of "save some cash before they start procreating." With say tax write-offs and other benefits, some people in some times in their life actually make money off of having children.
I dont know if you get many tax write offs for children in the UK.  You can get childcare vouchers with your wage gross before tax (but only if you earn <£50,000)

I've heard that the UK doesn't have the boutique obsession that we have in North America.

faithless

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2016, 12:29:14 PM »

I dont know if you get many tax write offs for children in the UK.  You can get childcare vouchers with your wage gross before tax (but only if you earn <£50,000)

There is Child Benefit

Who the allowance is for   Rate (weekly)
Eldest or only child   £20.70
Additional children   £13.70 per child

Tapers off if either parent individually earns 50k,

Child Tax Credits for lower earners.
And childcare vouchers available as a salary sacrifice, which you can use to pay for childcare effectively on your pre-tax income, so this is especially good for higher rate tax payers.

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2016, 03:08:08 PM »
Several thoughts:

- The international vacations thing is viewed differently in Britain.  Remember, they're an island about the size of some US states.  They can literally be in another country in just a couple hours.  As a result of their geography, they travel internationally more frequently /less expensively than we Americans. 


Did you forget that you can drive to Canada?
Nope, nor did I forget Mexico.  I didn't say it was impossible for Americans to drive to other countries; rather, I said that it takes more effort and time because of the distances involved for most of us.  Europeans can literally decide to drive to another country with just a couple hours and a personal car.  Yes, I can drive to Canada or Mexico, but it's not something I can do on a whim -- the distance is significant for me. 

Kitsunegari

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2016, 04:59:35 PM »
What a great find, thanks for sharing!

My favourite part of the article was this:

Quote
I used to love buying clothes from High Street stores like Next. I wonder what that old me would think now, watching me buying outfits at the supermarket — literally piling them on top of the sell-by date bread and dented beans.

I buy almost all of my clothes now from Sainsbury's. I think the quality for the price you're paying is just fantastic. For example, a decent, soft T-shirt for £5. Jeans for £20. Even pairs of Chinos for ~£20.

It's much better value than places like Next and, if my partner is to be believed (she works for a supermarket clothing department), it's all made in the same factory to similar specs anyway.

Lol yeah, I thought the same. "Forced to buy supermarket clothes..." THE HORROR!

StiffUpperLip

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2016, 05:36:35 AM »
Unless you are lucky enough to have family members who live nearby and are both willing and able to provide full time childcare, the predominant cost of small children lies in the loss of a wage or paying for full time childcare.

Maternity leave benefits only go so far so we saved heavily to enable me to take the time off after each of our two children were born.  I took 9 months off with each and as the main breadwinner a large shortfall in income had to be covered for the larger portion of that time.

We choose to pay full time childcare and accept that this will curtail our ability to save as large a portion of our income's as we'd like until our youngest goes to school.

However, although creating a greater challenge I believe these costs are entirely foreseeable and as such were budgeted for and have not led to us turning to debt or being unable to save something each month toward our futures.

UnleashHell

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2016, 03:08:45 PM »
Several thoughts:

- The international vacations thing is viewed differently in Britain.  Remember, they're an island about the size of some US states.  They can literally be in another country in just a couple hours.  As a result of their geography, they travel internationally more frequently /less expensively than we Americans. 


Did you forget that you can drive to Canada?

I could but it is so far across the continent from me that I wouldn't.

Um, Mexico then?

I live in Florida. Detriot is closer in driving terms than Mexico is...

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2016, 03:51:18 PM »
Several thoughts:

- The international vacations thing is viewed differently in Britain.  Remember, they're an island about the size of some US states.  They can literally be in another country in just a couple hours.  As a result of their geography, they travel internationally more frequently /less expensively than we Americans. 


Did you forget that you can drive to Canada?

I could but it is so far across the continent from me that I wouldn't.

Um, Mexico then?

I live in Florida. Detriot is closer in driving terms than Mexico is...

Boat to Bahamas?  My point is that international travel is not jet mainland Europe, Americans can travel very cheaply, too.

mm1970

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2016, 04:31:59 PM »
Several thoughts:

- The international vacations thing is viewed differently in Britain.  Remember, they're an island about the size of some US states.  They can literally be in another country in just a couple hours.  As a result of their geography, they travel internationally more frequently /less expensively than we Americans. 


Did you forget that you can drive to Canada?

I could but it is so far across the continent from me that I wouldn't.

Um, Mexico then?

I live in Florida. Detriot is closer in driving terms than Mexico is...

Boat to Bahamas?  My point is that international travel is not jet mainland Europe, Americans can travel very cheaply, too.
Yes but Americans cannot travel internationally quite as easily.

It's like when I mentioned 15 years ago to my mom that we were going to visit our friends in New Mexico.

Now, I grew up in PA.  I didn't actually leave PA until I was 18.  (Not true, we did take  a driving vacation to NC when I was 7).  We didn't drive much. 
Anyway, once I was in college, then ROTC, then the Navy, I traveled a bunch more.  All over the East anyway - PA to NH/ME, VA, GA, etc.

So, my mom says "that's not too bad, it's only 2 states!"
Um, the states are bigger out here.  My house to Santa Fe is 16 hours.  That's 2 days driving.

I personally really really don't want to go to Mexico. 
Any other place pretty much requires a plane ticket.  Times four.  Cha ching.

When I visited Europe, it was fantastic to be so close to everything!  Sure mostly just saw Denmark, Germany, and Sweden. 

There's also the vacation time aspect.  When our Danish friends come visit, they take a month.  They start in NY and often work their way out to CA before going home.
Yeah, I don't have that kind of vacation time, and what I DO have has to fit into the school schedule.

Making Cookies

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2016, 05:01:58 PM »
I can't help but think that we Americans are still doing it wrong when it comes to time off...

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2016, 01:41:50 AM »
Yip.

Ezzo

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Re: Why are families earning 50K broke - UK
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2016, 03:22:52 AM »
Some of them had 3 kids, the third being an accident because they are adult children and haven't heard of birth control.

Birth control isn't 100% effective mate. If you have twenty-five couples who all use condoms and each use them perfectly (i.e. use them every time, properly apply them, and properly remove them), the last set of statistics I heard found that one out of the twenty-five couples experience a pregnancy on average.

Over what time period?

Depending on this its either not so bad or absolutely horrendous in terms of effectiveness.

From planned parenthood If you use condoms perfectly every single time you have sex, they're 98% effective at preventing pregnancy. But people aren't perfect, so in real life condoms are about 82% effective — that means about 18 out of 100 people who use condoms as their only birth control method will get pregnant each year - See more at: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/condom/how-effective-are-condoms#sthash.ez0q77rF.dpuf

Now consider even perfect use. 2% are getting pregnant each year. Imagine a 20 year relationship. I don't judge people for accidents.