Author Topic: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599  (Read 2805 times)

WSUCoug1994

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2019, 01:59:34 PM »
Sounds right up my alley.....   This is probably a MUST buy for anyone with any extra spare change laying around especially at that steal of a price!









I jest, though I suppose there are some fan boys/girls/other/aliens who would buy this.   Personally, not a Smack a Mac fan BUT they are not bad computers, just not good enough for that price tag!  I really want to see which idiot who buys that with ALL the bells and whistles......   I just can't imagine who would.

TooMuchGlass

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2019, 03:33:16 PM »
I've had the same Macbook Pro for over 7 years now and for the first time have thought I'd benefit from a faster computer with a larger screen.

Buy it for life, right guys???

For real though, I wonder how long it will be before that 52k computer is, if not exactly run-of-the-mill, pretty normal and comparable to many other computers available on the market.

habaneroNorway

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2019, 03:49:22 PM »
The new fancy Apple Pro Screen is actually dirt cheap. It costs way less than all relevant competitors and is much larger. These are not intended for home use - they are aimed at graphics professionals, filmmakers and the likes requiring true color fidelity and powerful, uniform lightening etc. The sticker price on the competition from the likes of Eizo and TVLogic is in the range of 10.000 - 30.000+ dollars for smaller screen real estate.

As for the actual computer the price is mostly driven by the hardware components inside the box. You can buy something with similar (or even better) specs if you actually need it, but it will end up costing a very pretty penny without the fancy Apple design.

I don't see why this is wall-of-shame-stuff. Its an very powerful workstation targeted at businesses in actual need of very powerful workstations. Some work requires a bit more computing power than surfing the web, posting on a couple of online forums or calculating years to FIRE in a spreadsheet all of which you can happily do on a 8-10 years old computer. As for a lot of stuff that actually gets done? Forget it. My humble work computer has 64 GB RAM because I couldn't do what I need it to do when it had only 32GB. Sure, I could maybe have spend hours and hours and hours trying to make my program consume less memory, but for my employer it is much cheaper to just toss in a couple of extra RAM chips and let me get on with the stuff they pay me for.

MilesTeg

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2019, 03:59:40 PM »
https://www.engadget.com/2019/12/10/mac-pro-most-expensive-configuration-sticker-shock/

In typical Apple fashion they're charging 2x+ the cost of comparable machines, but it's not like this is aimed at people doing email or playing video games.

Daley

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2019, 06:25:28 PM »
https://www.engadget.com/2019/12/10/mac-pro-most-expensive-configuration-sticker-shock/

In typical Apple fashion they're charging 2x+ the cost of comparable machines, but it's not like this is aimed at people doing email or playing video games.

Which makes statements like what habaneroNorway made about how "dirt cheap" the pro monitor is all the more cringe-worthy given the display uses a proprietary thunderbolt connector with zero hardware adjustment buttons, that'll only have display settings accessible via software connected to an OSX box.

I'm gonna walk this through my rhetorical question loaded CIO voice:

Look at this cheap $5k HDR reference monitor in some over-the-top funky 6k resolution! It's a quarter the price of a 4k HDR reference monitor! Wowee! Wait, it costs an extra $1000 for non-reflective coating? Wait, it has a proprietary display mount and I either have to drop an extra $200 for a VESA connector just to mount it to another monitor mount, or spend another $1000 for the proprietary stand that's not even adjustable, unless I want to duct tape it against a wall? Wait, it's a proprietary Thunderbolt display connector that won't play nice with our Windows-Adobe workstations, forcing us to buy the Mac Pro? Wait, the Mac Pro literally runs more than twice the price in any configuration just for the hardware and OS than our existing workstations built new, and they lock us out of future upgrade paths, like dual CPU socket motherboards or a full 2TB of RAM? Wait, we're locked into Intel CPUs and AMD GPUs on a new workstation when the AMD CPUs and Nvidia GPUs are killing on the bang for buck spectrum right now?

So this means what, exactly? That the shiny $5000 monitor is just a trojan horse designed to lock us into Apple's non-upgradable ecosystem after they abandoned our market segment for nearly a decade, and we get to pay just as much if not more for their proprietary workstation than what we can get new under Windows, and the software we actually use for video production likely won't be optimized under OSX for months to years yet, forcing us over to Apple's software just to actually squeeze out the potential of the hardware we're paying for unless we want to over-configure and spend another $3-7k in upgrades on top of the $6k starting price to get equal performance to existing Nvidia-optimized Adobe setups?

Yeah, I'll stick with a $20,000 Canon or Eizo reference display, thank you very much.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2019, 09:07:40 PM »
At least it doesn't look like a trashcan. That alone has to be worth $30,000.

habaneroNorway

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2019, 12:06:09 AM »
For a business the stuff that matters is generally employer productivity. If you have a shop in which the creative folks already work on Apple a a few thousand dollars up or down for hardware is gonna be peanuts compared to the cost of labor. Hardware is realatively cheap compared to skilled professionals these days.

Im not a very big fan of Apple gadgets despite owning an iPhone (thank you, work) nor am I in the marked for such a monitor as I have zero use for it, but the general blogosphere on the Pro screen is that it has made high-end-features only found in serious pro gear available at a much lower pricing point than previously available. So in that case, the monitor is dirt cheap.




Daley

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2019, 09:43:04 AM »
For a business the stuff that matters is generally employer productivity. If you have a shop in which the creative folks already work on Apple a a few thousand dollars up or down for hardware is gonna be peanuts compared to the cost of labor. Hardware is realatively cheap compared to skilled professionals these days.

That's the thing, man... the professionals with the pockets deep enough to actually need and justify this sort of hardware already moved on from Apple years ago because Apple stopped caring about their actual needs and providing appropriate hardware for what they were doing, because the cult of iPhone was printing them money. Why and how? Because the majority of their tools were never OSX exclusive in the first place, Apple charged a premium for underwhelming hardware with QC issues that were physically locked down and prevented them from upgrading on the fly, and Windows 10 is darn stable as a workstation OS these days. With the exception of a shortcut key, Adobe software pretty much works the same under Windows as it does OSX.

Offering a $5k HDR reference monitor that only works with OSX, and requires you to buy into an overpriced $20k workstation to effectively use it with industry standard software is the same sort of marketing shenanigans as inkjet printers. The printers are priced to sucker you in, and then they bleed you dry with the ink you're held captive to buy from them just to get the printer to work reliably. Apple's priority isn't about providing tools to their userbase anymore, it's about financially locking them into an expensive walled garden that's really difficult to escape, and then convincing them through cargo cult zealotry that their Apple branded gilded cage is an exclusive and unparalleled freedom.

Face it, this is a system for YouTube hobbyists who never learned how to use anything beyond Final Cut Pro and aren't savvy enough to do the math or learn how to use AfterEffects.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 09:50:03 AM by Daley »

PDXTabs

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2019, 09:53:26 AM »
For a business the stuff that matters is generally employer productivity. If you have a shop in which the creative folks already work on Apple a a few thousand dollars up or down for hardware is gonna be peanuts compared to the cost of labor. Hardware is realatively cheap compared to skilled professionals these days.

That's the thing, man... the professionals with the pockets deep enough to actually need and justify this sort of hardware already moved on from Apple years ago because Apple stopped caring about their actual needs and providing appropriate hardware for what they were doing, because the cult of iPhone was printing them money. Why and how? Because the majority of their tools were never OSX exclusive in the first place, Apple charged a premium for underwhelming hardware with QC issues that were physically locked down and prevented them from upgrading on the fly, and Windows 10 is darn stable as a workstation OS these days. With the exception of a shortcut key, Adobe software pretty much works the same under Windows as it does OSX.

☝️ This is my full time day job, except that we are software developers, so we moved to Linux instead of Windows. In general I'm more productive on Linux than MacOs and the hardware is half price. I loved OSX cerca 10.5, but it's total crap now.

jafr1284

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2019, 07:08:27 PM »
For a business the stuff that matters is generally employer productivity. If you have a shop in which the creative folks already work on Apple a a few thousand dollars up or down for hardware is gonna be peanuts compared to the cost of labor. Hardware is realatively cheap compared to skilled professionals these days.

That's the thing, man... the professionals with the pockets deep enough to actually need and justify this sort of hardware already moved on from Apple years ago because Apple stopped caring about their actual needs and providing appropriate hardware for what they were doing, because the cult of iPhone was printing them money. Why and how? Because the majority of their tools were never OSX exclusive in the first place, Apple charged a premium for underwhelming hardware with QC issues that were physically locked down and prevented them from upgrading on the fly, and Windows 10 is darn stable as a workstation OS these days. With the exception of a shortcut key, Adobe software pretty much works the same under Windows as it does OSX.

Offering a $5k HDR reference monitor that only works with OSX, and requires you to buy into an overpriced $20k workstation to effectively use it with industry standard software is the same sort of marketing shenanigans as inkjet printers. The printers are priced to sucker you in, and then they bleed you dry with the ink you're held captive to buy from them just to get the printer to work reliably. Apple's priority isn't about providing tools to their userbase anymore, it's about financially locking them into an expensive walled garden that's really difficult to escape, and then convincing them through cargo cult zealotry that their Apple branded gilded cage is an exclusive and unparalleled freedom.

Face it, this is a system for YouTube hobbyists who never learned how to use anything beyond Final Cut Pro and aren't savvy enough to do the math or learn how to use AfterEffects.
I use final cut and logic all the time. I think I have actually come out ahead financially despite owning a Mac because
1) Adobe creative cloud subscription is expensive
2) Avid Pro Tools subscription is also expensive
Tell me how the math works out in favor of owning a PC.. I use a MacBook pro and paid just over $2k for it 4 years ago

Daley

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2019, 10:46:09 PM »
I use final cut and logic all the time. I think I have actually come out ahead financially despite owning a Mac because
1) Adobe creative cloud subscription is expensive
2) Avid Pro Tools subscription is also expensive
Tell me how the math works out in favor of owning a PC.. I use a MacBook pro and paid just over $2k for it 4 years ago

The fact that you're actively using a four year old entry-level MBP, FCP, LP, and no reference monitor means one of two things:

1) You aren't actually the target market for this equipment, because you're not doing high-end HDR 4/8K video production work for broadcast or digital film mastering. This also means you don't NEED tools like Adobe or Avid, or Apple's "XDR" monitor. I've already illustrated the financial cost penalty with this system under that usage scenario with the rhetorical CIO post.

2) You are the target market for this equipment, because you yourself aren't technically savvy enough to understand what you actually need and how Apple's hardware prices and platform lock-in are financially bleeding you through their walled garden. Given even MBPs are overpriced for what you get, non-upgradable, non-user-repairable, and have non-trivial QC issues, and you're asking this question... it means you don't actually know what options you actually have.

Let's talk hypothetical, here. You could have easily gotten a high-end Windows-based notebook or portable workstation from Dell's Latitude or Precision line with a comparable configuration to your MBP new for about 2/3rds the cost at the time, or a refurb/open box from Dell directly of a slightly older model that still would have tagged the performance of your 2015 MBP for around half the cost.

If you were new to video editing or open to learning something new given you're only using FCP, you could have easily gone for Sony Vegas, DaVinci, Lightworks, or OpenShot on the video end, and either FL Studio, Reaper, Cubase or Tracktion on the audio end - all of which are multi-platform editors. Assuming you paid $1500 for the laptop and $500 for FCP/LP with that $2000 price quote, even paying $600 for Vegas and $200 for FL Studio Producer or Reaper (the more expensive of those options without really exceeding the features you have) coupled with a fully new $1000 laptop, you're still 10% cheaper ($200 less) going Windows, and gotten more capable software in the process. If you went with a $800 refurb/open box special and could get away with the free version of DaVinci/riding the beta of Lightworks/using OpenShot on the video end and using even the $100 end of any of the audio editors, that's still roughly $1100 cheaper. More than half. Even if you'd gone with the MBP and the cross-platform software, you'd still have spent an extra $500 just for the laptop to run OSX over Windows. And you could still upgrade/replace hard drives, RAM, replace batteries at a reasonable price without taking it to a Genius Bar, spend more for higher end software/upgrades that could do more than Apple's titles going with the Dells...

I'm glad your setup is working for you, and you're happy with what you got out of it for the money... but the fact that you did choose that path, and it fits your needs means you're more of an under-educated prosumer (or as I less kindly stated, Youtube hobbyist, no genuine offense intended). Real professionals who live and die by Adobe's software workflow (those who can justify the cost), or are needing ridiculous processing power moved on years ago when Apple stopped putting out anything remotely resembling real pro-grade equipment. The fact that you haven't, and your work can't justify the cost of the 800lb. gorilla software suites associated with it... well... Apple exploited your gaps in knowledge and cashed in on their loudly touted history with creative types to the tune, of, about a grand in opportunity cost in your case and locked you into a software workflow that's proprietary and beholden to their hardware.

Personally, if I'd been in your shoes with a $2000 budget in 2015 and needing to do low-end HD video editing and music work but wanted to use the absolute best tools for the money in a laptop form factor, I'd have recommended a Dell Latitude E6440, DaVinci Resolve and Cubase Artist... though honestly at the time, if it had been for myself, I'd have probably gone Ubuntu Studio with some workflow involving Cinelerra, Blender, Synfig, LMMS and Audacity depending on what I was doing... mostly because I was already familiar with the stuff to varying degrees... or if I'd been using Windows at the time, gone with the free version of DaVinci or OpenShot with Blender and Synfig, and probably entry level FL Studio and Audacity on a used Thinkpad W520 for around $750. Of course, I'm not you, and YMMV. However, you wanted to know.

There you go, a good half dozen options yielding as good or better results for varying degrees of not insignificant levels of less money with greater flexibility for the level of work being performed and the hardware needed to do it.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 10:57:27 PM by Daley »

jafr1284

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2019, 08:30:02 AM »
I use final cut and logic all the time. I think I have actually come out ahead financially despite owning a Mac because
1) Adobe creative cloud subscription is expensive
2) Avid Pro Tools subscription is also expensive
Tell me how the math works out in favor of owning a PC.. I use a MacBook pro and paid just over $2k for it 4 years ago

The fact that you're actively using a four year old entry-level MBP, FCP, LP, and no reference monitor means one of two things:

1) You aren't actually the target market for this equipment, because you're not doing high-end HDR 4/8K video production work for broadcast or digital film mastering. This also means you don't NEED tools like Adobe or Avid, or Apple's "XDR" monitor. I've already illustrated the financial cost penalty with this system under that usage scenario with the rhetorical CIO post.

2) You are the target market for this equipment, because you yourself aren't technically savvy enough to understand what you actually need and how Apple's hardware prices and platform lock-in are financially bleeding you through their walled garden. Given even MBPs are overpriced for what you get, non-upgradable, non-user-repairable, and have non-trivial QC issues, and you're asking this question... it means you don't actually know what options you actually have.

Let's talk hypothetical, here. You could have easily gotten a high-end Windows-based notebook or portable workstation from Dell's Latitude or Precision line with a comparable configuration to your MBP new for about 2/3rds the cost at the time, or a refurb/open box from Dell directly of a slightly older model that still would have tagged the performance of your 2015 MBP for around half the cost.

If you were new to video editing or open to learning something new given you're only using FCP, you could have easily gone for Sony Vegas, DaVinci, Lightworks, or OpenShot on the video end, and either FL Studio, Reaper, Cubase or Tracktion on the audio end - all of which are multi-platform editors. Assuming you paid $1500 for the laptop and $500 for FCP/LP with that $2000 price quote, even paying $600 for Vegas and $200 for FL Studio Producer or Reaper (the more expensive of those options without really exceeding the features you have) coupled with a fully new $1000 laptop, you're still 10% cheaper ($200 less) going Windows, and gotten more capable software in the process. If you went with a $800 refurb/open box special and could get away with the free version of DaVinci/riding the beta of Lightworks/using OpenShot on the video end and using even the $100 end of any of the audio editors, that's still roughly $1100 cheaper. More than half. Even if you'd gone with the MBP and the cross-platform software, you'd still have spent an extra $500 just for the laptop to run OSX over Windows. And you could still upgrade/replace hard drives, RAM, replace batteries at a reasonable price without taking it to a Genius Bar, spend more for higher end software/upgrades that could do more than Apple's titles going with the Dells...

I'm glad your setup is working for you, and you're happy with what you got out of it for the money... but the fact that you did choose that path, and it fits your needs means you're more of an under-educated prosumer (or as I less kindly stated, Youtube hobbyist, no genuine offense intended). Real professionals who live and die by Adobe's software workflow (those who can justify the cost), or are needing ridiculous processing power moved on years ago when Apple stopped putting out anything remotely resembling real pro-grade equipment. The fact that you haven't, and your work can't justify the cost of the 800lb. gorilla software suites associated with it... well... Apple exploited your gaps in knowledge and cashed in on their loudly touted history with creative types to the tune, of, about a grand in opportunity cost in your case and locked you into a software workflow that's proprietary and beholden to their hardware.

Personally, if I'd been in your shoes with a $2000 budget in 2015 and needing to do low-end HD video editing and music work but wanted to use the absolute best tools for the money in a laptop form factor, I'd have recommended a Dell Latitude E6440, DaVinci Resolve and Cubase Artist... though honestly at the time, if it had been for myself, I'd have probably gone Ubuntu Studio with some workflow involving Cinelerra, Blender, Synfig, LMMS and Audacity depending on what I was doing... mostly because I was already familiar with the stuff to varying degrees... or if I'd been using Windows at the time, gone with the free version of DaVinci or OpenShot with Blender and Synfig, and probably entry level FL Studio and Audacity on a used Thinkpad W520 for around $750. Of course, I'm not you, and YMMV. However, you wanted to know.

There you go, a good half dozen options yielding as good or better results for varying degrees of not insignificant levels of less money with greater flexibility for the level of work being performed and the hardware needed to do it.
Thank your for the thoughtful reply with tons of info. I will definitely save it. Not that it matters but I do pro recording work and audacity would definitely not cut it. I do agree that there are other softwares I could try out that are compatible with Windows. When my Mac dies I will definitely check it out. Also Macs are "servicable" if you check out guides on ifixit. For example I can replace my battery, and swap out my SSD among other repairs/ upgrades it's just pretty difficult compared to non apple computers. In terms of compatibility, there could be potential issues with my audio equipment (audio interface) not being compatible with Linux but I that is easy to find out with a quick search. Cheers!

Daley

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2019, 09:50:38 AM »
Thank your for the thoughtful reply with tons of info. I will definitely save it. Not that it matters but I do pro recording work and audacity would definitely not cut it. I do agree that there are other softwares I could try out that are compatible with Windows. When my Mac dies I will definitely check it out. Also Macs are "servicable" if you check out guides on ifixit. For example I can replace my battery, and swap out my SSD among other repairs/ upgrades it's just pretty difficult compared to non apple computers. In terms of compatibility, there could be potential issues with my audio equipment (audio interface) not being compatible with Linux but I that is easy to find out with a quick search. Cheers!

Yup, yup. Glad to help.

As for knowing what's possible with MBP upgrades, I know what's possible with DIY Apple hardware repairs. You're quite right with your model version, but it's only gotten worse since. And end users may be able to replace their batteries with some effort, but it's an absolute pain. Plus aftermarket are never as good as OEM and are prone to swelling, and last I checked, Apple still won't sell OEM batteries for all their laptops to end users anymore as they're no longer considered CRUs (customer replaceable units).

As for the Linux audio production, I know others who have done it, and I know enough to get it done if I needed... but I'm also a realist. Audio production under Linux is not for the faint of heart, and there's a reason why I'd couched the Ubuntu setup with the phrase, "if it had been for myself." If you just want stuff to work and you don't have to do much to get things set up, you're better off under Windows with access to production suites like FL Studio, Reaper and Cubase. Audio production under Linux, much like video production, is reliant on the person having the drive to really want to do it under Linux specifically in the first place.

Last bit of advice from this old fart, though? It's Apple's software titles and work files that lock you into their walled garden, not OSX specifically. Most of these are already cross-platform applications (and those listed aren't the only ones, excuse Vegas, which is Windows only), which means you already have access to them with your existing MBP. Try out the trials/demos/freebie versions of them and see what works for you now, and consider switching to it and learning to use it sooner than later. This way, when your Mac does die and you need to get a replacement, you're not scrambling to learn new software to save the money or locked out of your active and current work files. You just keep trucking with what you know, and remember that Alt=Option and Ctrl=Command for your keyboard shortcuts. Make the minor finger placement adjustments for keyboard shortcuts, import your files to the new computer, and you should be laughing. Just be sure that if you do buy a license, that license is good for use on all platforms the software's released for. The sooner you make the software switch, the less work files you'll create in the future that'll keep you locked to OSX if you ever need to revisit them.

It's also worth noting that versions between Windows and OSX aren't always 100% identical, but if there's a Linux version in there or all platforms are getting the same software updates released at the same time, you should be fine. I only mention this because there have been apps from other developers (like Intuit) in the past who have released titles with similar names for both Windows and OSX, and the versions aren't compatible with each other at all, not even the files, despite their similar interfaces... and they don't even offer import/export utilities to aid transitioning between operating systems. But, those are apps where the license isn't transferable, either... so that's a bit of a giveaway. It shouldn't impact you, but it's worth keeping tucked away as something to ask about and check all the same for any software you're using or planning to use. Good luck!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 10:33:08 AM by Daley »

habaneroNorway

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2019, 05:30:02 AM »
Ok, I wasn't aware of the massive lock-in-iusse so in that regard the monitor ain't cheap as you need a lot of add-ons (i.e a Mac) to actually use it.

As for the Mac Pro, you can grate cheese on it, but it gets a little messy
https://youtu.be/xYhcM0fhgC8?t=821

Just Joe

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Re: Who wants a new Mac Pro - $52,599
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2019, 08:12:55 AM »
Man, Apple doesn't even make a decent cheese grater... ;)