The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: obstinate on October 15, 2016, 02:18:09 PM
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http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-true-crime-documentary-about-the-con-that-shook-the-world-of-wine?mbid=social_facebook
This is so amusing. If you got taken by this guy, you should just stick to two buck chuck from now on.
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Somehow old and poor people being taken advantage of makes me extremely angry, but do it with rich wine snobs, and it's just really funny!
... Koch spends many millions more soliciting cork experts, label gurus, former C.I.A. agents, and private investigators.
So when you're a billionaire, not only do you spend millions on the expensive wine itself, you also spend millions paying people to make sure it's not fake. Because your taste buds sure can't. I can't even.
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I love articles and studies like these. For years I've been saying that once I hit about the $10-15/bottle* mark, I can no longer tell a difference when it comes to wine quality. Instead of being a philistine, turns out I've just been more honest than most people.
*I can tell when wine is legitimately horrible - vinegary or funky or watery - but that's either in SUPER cheap bottles (gas station wine) or is not correlated to price. When it passes the "not awful" benchmark, it's all pretty similar quality to my taste buds.
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If I don't like it I don't swallow.
My perception limit is around $100/bottle. Usually the good stuff starts at around 40-50/ bottle.
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Nobody can tell good wine, it's one of the favorite experiments of the Freakonomics author and professor.
Randomly swap the contents of $200 bottles of wine with supermarket plonk and the university wine club will still decide that the fancy bottles are better.
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Agreed with @nobodyspecial. Nobody can tell. People who think they can tell are mostly deluded.
This is why I drink this stuff from Safeway that comes at $8 for a 1.5L bottle. Also, from a mustachian perspective, this makes a lot of sense. I was thinking about it. I like to have a glass or two with dinner, so I go through a normal bottle of wine every three or four days. If I'm spending $10 per bottle, that's a $1000 per year habit. But at $8 per 1.5L bottle, it's more like $400. Actually, yikes, that still sounds like a lot. Hrm. May need to reevaluate this and drop down to one cup a night.
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Agreed with @nobodyspecial. Nobody can tell. People who think they can tell are mostly deluded.
This is why I drink this stuff from Safeway that comes at $8 for a 1.5L bottle. Also, from a mustachian perspective, this makes a lot of sense. I was thinking about it. I like to have a glass or two with dinner, so I go through a normal bottle of wine every three or four days. If I'm spending $10 per bottle, that's a $1000 per year habit. But at $8 per 1.5L bottle, it's more like $400. Actually, yikes, that still sounds like a lot. Hrm. May need to reevaluate this and drop down to one cup a night.
My beer and wine are part of my planned expenses, no guilt will be had. I'm a 1 beer a day, and 1 bottle of 2 buck chuck a month guy. I don't get enough more enjoyment out of slightly better $20 abottle stuff to justify it.
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That is why we go 3 buck chuck all the way.
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Nobody can tell good wine, it's one of the favorite experiments of the Freakonomics author and professor.
Randomly swap the contents of $200 bottles of wine with supermarket plonk and the university wine club will still decide that the fancy bottles are better.
I've done my fair share of blind taste tests and I assure you, some wines can absolutely be identified and differentiated. But for me, those are few and far between. I stick mostly in the $10-$20 range. But compare a $10 bottle with a Petrus or a Margaux, and you would have to be dead to not tell the difference.
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Hmm, have not tasted anything better than a $50 bottle, but I definitely dislike the super cheap wines - the kind they hand you at parties and large events. I take a sip and stop drinking if it tastes like nothing - and there is a lot of this pointless wine around - I'm not sure why? Just to get drunk? Our normal is the $20-35 mark. Good taste, not super expensive. We drink rarely though, so annual cost is a blip.
Maybe one day I will taste a really expensive bottle, just to find out for myself.
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Nobody can tell good wine, it's one of the favorite experiments of the Freakonomics author and professor.
Randomly swap the contents of $200 bottles of wine with supermarket plonk and the university wine club will still decide that the fancy bottles are better.
I have a friend who is "into" wine. It's his business, he owns a wine tour.
He and another friend have introduced me to very good wine.
So, thus, now I'm picky. My tastes have changed. But they haven't necessarily gotten more expensive, because you can still get really good inexpensive wine.
Anyway, I belong to two local wineries, and he made a comment about my newer winery "gosh I need to get you into better wine!" (This winery does mostly reds and they range from $30-$60 before the discount. Which is a LOT for me, so I only get the 12 bottles a year.) He'd be horrified by my other wine club, which is more $8-15.
Anyway, as a gift another friend gave him a bottle of wine from that newer winery and he said "not bad, I usually don't drink anything less than $30 a bottle!)
Boy.
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Wine industry veteran weighing in here (Oregon Pinot noir vineyard owner and former wine producer).
First, I love the con thing where filthy rich snooty gasbags get duped. Because if you're drinking wine for the ego strokes, well, you get what you deserve. I've had to put up with plenty of these folks in my career and good riddance.
But there really is a difference between rotgut and beautifully crafted wine. Just like with many things, there's a range of quality. Everyday wine is fine. Good wine is lovely. And really fine wine is ethereal.
Like mm1970 says, the good news is that there is a whole lot of well made wine (from all over the world) with moderate price tags. I do a lot of my wine shopping at Trader Joe's. You might as well. And finding a local winery (if there are any in your area) is a fun way to get connected with your local wine scene.
And the most important thing about wine is that if you like it, then drink it. Doesn't matter how much/little it costs, and who does/doesn't like it...it's your mouth. You get to decide what goes in it.
I've lived in France (Burgundy) and spent time with wine producers from many regions and many countries. They have one thing in common - they love good wine (no matter how much/little it costs or where it comes from). Wine producers are often winegrape farmers (you'll find them on tractors and out in the vineyard in muddy boots).
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I shouldn't be amused by this but I am, perhaps it's because the victims are a bunch of people with oddles of money that are buying something they think they understand but don't.
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I shouldn't be amused by this but I am, perhaps it's because the victims are a bunch of people with oddles of money that are buying something they think they understand but don't.
Your classic "More money than sense."
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That is why we go 3 buck chuck all the way.
I gave up on this when it was still called 2 buck chuck. It's so light that it's easy to drink WAY more than you normally would. I kept thinking the wine gave me headaches, when it turned out the volume of the wine was what caused the headaches. womp womp.
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That is why we go 3 buck chuck all the way.
I gave up on this when it was still called 2 buck chuck. It's so light that it's easy to drink WAY more than you normally would. I kept thinking the wine gave me headaches, when it turned out the volume of the wine was what caused the headaches. womp womp.
In that case, may I recommend Argentian or Chilean reds? I find them to be a very good value. I normally buy a boxed wine for personal use if I want wine because that way I can drink a glass or two whenever I want without needing to worry about finishing the bottle, but for parties I'll bring a bottle of an Argentian red. Normally around $10/bottle, and most often the host is impressed by it, as are other guests.
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Am I the only one who find sub$20 wine are mostly one note wine that is not balanced? Pls recommend some of your favorite so I can join in on the cheap wine club.
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I can tell cheap wine from moderately priced wine, but that's about it. I pretty much drink cheap wines, but there are some cheap wines I cannot drink, including 2 buck Chuck. I had one bottle that was fine, and the next one was off/bad (maybe I should say inconsistent). But it really only matters for the first glass. If you can get through the first glass you can't taste much after that anyways. So my advice, if you are going to drink a really nice glass of wine, make it the first one. Then substitute to something less expensive.
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A very good read in a similar vein...
(https://homeiswherethehaggisis.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/gg-the-billionaires-vinegar-review.jpg?w=668)
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A very good read in a similar vein...
(https://homeiswherethehaggisis.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/gg-the-billionaires-vinegar-review.jpg?w=668)
+1. This is a good read, especially for a Mustachian.
I will say that I do notice that super expensive wines (I have had $400+ bottles at business dinners) do have one thing in common: a strong taste. I'm no connoisseur, but I do notice that. The expensive wines (bordeaux are the expensive ones I have tasted) are much stronger and richer tasting. Are they better? I guess that strong taste is what people who know wine would consider better, so I guess so. I personally felt a little sick drinking Chateau Palmer 80-whatever as the table wine at our business dinner while there were homeless people across the street.
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Am I the only one who find sub$20 wine are mostly one note wine that is not balanced? Pls recommend some of your favorite so I can join in on the cheap wine club.
You are probably liking older bottles over less mature wine. Typically, older bottles are more balanced (because crafted to be aged) when drunk at their peak and have had many years for their flavors to integrate. Since they need to be aged in controlled condition, they cost more. So, it's not that they are expensive because they are better, they are expensive because they cost more to produce.
I have fairly accomplished taste buds. For instance, I can identify most single varietal wines with pretty good consistency(i.e., merlot, zin, cab and so on). I find wines that I like at all prices. Since I am cheap, I make my own from purchased grapes for about 4$ the bottle and will soon have my first crop of self grown grapes.
In the last 2 decades (and probably before that too), there have been significant improvements to the understanding of wine and its chemical and physical properties. Wine qualities that once could only be obtained by starting from the very best grapes ($$$) using laborious techniques ($$$) can now be replicated (more or less) by using organoleptic additives, yeast products, industrial processes and biological methods. For example, many vintners use "deep purple" to enhance the visual appearance of wine made from hot-climate grapes (typically lacking in colour and intensity).
So while starting with the very best grapes ($$$) still gives you an edge, you can also start from ok grapes ($) and obtain a result that can be sold at 10$ and tastes like ($$$).
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I mostly prefer reds, enjoy Apothic red, Gnarlyhead (sp), Lindemans. My favorite type of red right now is pino noir. I haven't had as much success with white wines but there are some pino grigios and chardonnays I like (I think Cupcake is one of them).
I am not a connoisseur. Lately I've been getting Rex Goliath, with their Free Range Red (a blended mix) very easy to drink (along with some local chiantis) even for those who do not like red wine.
I have noticed that the lower end wines, at least the reds are being mixed to mimic the "big" (with fruit) taste that you get from more expensive wines.
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I can tell cheap wine from moderately priced wine, but that's about it. I pretty much drink cheap wines, but there are some cheap wines I cannot drink, including 2 buck Chuck. I had one bottle that was fine, and the next one was off/bad (maybe I should say inconsistent). But it really only matters for the first glass. If you can get through the first glass you can't taste much after that anyways. So my advice, if you are going to drink a really nice glass of wine, make it the first one. Then substitute to something less expensive.
Hah, slightly off-topic, but that's the common theme for my beer-drinking friends. It's microbrew for the first couple, then the cheap stuff for the rest of the night.
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I can tell cheap wine from moderately priced wine, but that's about it. I pretty much drink cheap wines, but there are some cheap wines I cannot drink, including 2 buck Chuck. I had one bottle that was fine, and the next one was off/bad (maybe I should say inconsistent). But it really only matters for the first glass. If you can get through the first glass you can't taste much after that anyways. So my advice, if you are going to drink a really nice glass of wine, make it the first one. Then substitute to something less expensive.
Hah, slightly off-topic, but that's the common theme for my beer-drinking friends. It's microbrew for the first couple, then the cheap stuff for the rest of the night.
yep! Probably even more true for wine I would think.
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I prefer whites and sparkling mostly. I want to try rose. For cooking I usually buy whatever Food Lion has on sale in the containers you could stick a straw in. For Chinese dishes dry sherry. Most reds are too much for me too heavy or something I like sweeter ones to dry...
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This is reminding me of advice I got in Spain. (They really like their wine...really really...) "Don't buy any bottle under €1 or over €5."
Granted, under €1 is the stuff that comes in cartons and is mostly drunk by the homeless, teenagers or mixed into a Kalimotxo. €3-4 is more like $8-12 here, and over €5 is more like $20+.
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Somehow old and poor people being taken advantage of makes me extremely angry, but do it with rich wine snobs, and it's just really funny!
*snip*
I understand this! It is because the snobs are holding themselves forth as experts, while the "old and poor people" are trusting people they think to be experts or are doing things in ignorance.
So, if you come across an antique dealer and get an excellent price on a Fancy Furniture Antique because the dealer doesn't notice Rarity Marking, it is the dealer's fault for not catching Rarity Marking. But if you see that same Fancy Furniture Antique at the yard sale of an elderly couple selling some furniture that has been in the family for years so they can move to assisted living, you would be a scumbag not to point out to them the Rarity Marking and tell them that their $20 price tag should be something like $20,000. You would be taking advantage of their ignorance, as normal people would have no reason to suspect that handed-down furniture is worth so much. Even if the couple were well-off, you would still feel guilty taking advantage of them over their ignorance.
As for wine, I can tolerate it if I mix it with juice. Alone, it is just gross. Give me cheap vodka with mixers any day.
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In the last 2 decades (and probably before that too), there have been significant improvements to the understanding of wine and its chemical and physical properties. Wine qualities that once could only be obtained by starting from the very best grapes ($$$) using laborious techniques ($$$) can now be replicated (more or less) by using organoleptic additives, yeast products, industrial processes and biological methods. For example, many vintners use "deep purple" to enhance the visual appearance of wine made from hot-climate grapes (typically lacking in colour and intensity).
Trained winemaker jumping in here- the products you are referring to are actually called Mega Red and Mega Purple; the extensiveness of their use is debated. Do central valley bulk producers supplying three buck chuck and its ilk throw it in there? Probably. It's supposed to be great for bringing back color and rounding out the mouthfeel of a wine that was chemically stripped. And I guarantee that wine selling for $3/btl started out as something foul. But I've never used it, seen it in someone else's winery or have spoken with someone who has used it or seen in a third party's winery. Maybe I run in the wrong (or right?) circles and it's extensively used in regions with which I have no experience.
I think it's funny that MMMers like to pile on the wine industry. To me it's the same as beer and liquor, of which more expensive examples are not disparaged nearly as often. If you drink it often, try a wide range of types and take a moment to think about what you are consuming inside of just tossing it back, your palate will become more nuanced, unless you are a non taster, and you will probably find yourself preferring higher quality products. Higher quality products are often more expensive than lower quality products from the same region.
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In the last 2 decades (and probably before that too), there have been significant improvements to the understanding of wine and its chemical and physical properties. Wine qualities that once could only be obtained by starting from the very best grapes ($$$) using laborious techniques ($$$) can now be replicated (more or less) by using organoleptic additives, yeast products, industrial processes and biological methods. For example, many vintners use "deep purple" to enhance the visual appearance of wine made from hot-climate grapes (typically lacking in colour and intensity).
Trained winemaker jumping in here- the products you are referring to are actually called Mega Red and Mega Purple; the extensiveness of their use is debated. Do central valley bulk producers supplying three buck chuck and its ilk throw it in there? Probably. It's supposed to be great for bringing back color and rounding out the mouthfeel of a wine that was chemically stripped. And I guarantee that wine selling for $3/btl started out as something foul. But I've never used it, seen it in someone else's winery or have spoken with someone who has used it or seen in a third party's winery. Maybe I run in the wrong (or right?) circles and it's extensively used in regions with which I have no experience.
I think it's funny that MMMers like to pile on the wine industry. To me it's the same as beer and liquor, of which more expensive examples are not disparaged nearly as often. If you drink it often, try a wide range of types and take a moment to think about what you are consuming inside of just tossing it back, your palate will become more nuanced, unless you are a non taster, and you will probably find yourself preferring higher quality products. Higher quality products are often more expensive than lower quality products from the same region.
I'm actually kind of afraid of trying nicer wine, because what if I really like it, and it ruins the enjoyment of the wine I currently drink? I have the same feelings about expensive coffee. I do enjoy expensive coffee, but it also costs 4x as much. So I drink tea instead.
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I'm actually kind of afraid of trying nicer wine, because what if I really like it, and it ruins the enjoyment of the wine I currently drink? I have the same feelings about expensive coffee. I do enjoy expensive coffee, but it also costs 4x as much. So I drink tea instead.
Just use geo-arbitrage to your advantage. Stick with places with relatively low production costs (cheap land, cheap labor) and the resulting wine quality can be quite good for a lower cost- the low hanging fruit are Portugal, Spain, Chile, Argentina.
One thing to remember about wine. The lower priced offerings from a region most likely started with something wrong with them- poor grape quality, a mistake during the winemaking process, or both. Then someone fixed it as best they could (stripping agents) then tried to make it drinkable (additives, especially lots of sugar). So, those cheap wines have had a lot of manhandling outside of the romanticized basics. I don't want to drink that- not just for a snobby winemaking reason, or because it tastes nasty, but because I don't want to consume velcorin, copper and lots of added sugar. And I think if more people were aware of the details, they wouldn't either.
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I'm actually kind of afraid of trying nicer wine, because what if I really like it, and it ruins the enjoyment of the wine I currently drink? I have the same feelings about expensive coffee. I do enjoy expensive coffee, but it also costs 4x as much. So I drink tea instead.
Just use geo-arbitrage to your advantage. Stick with places with relatively low production costs (cheap land, cheap labor) and the resulting wine quality can be quite good for a lower cost- the low hanging fruit are Portugal, Spain, Chile, Argentina.
One thing to remember about wine. The lower priced offerings from a region most likely started with something wrong with them- poor grape quality, a mistake during the winemaking process, or both. Then someone fixed it as best they could (stripping agents) then tried to make it drinkable (additives, especially lots of sugar). So, those cheap wines have had a lot of manhandling outside of the romanticized basics. I don't want to drink that- not just for a snobby winemaking reason, or because it tastes nasty, but because I don't want to consume velcorin, copper and lots of added sugar. And I think if more people were aware of the details, they wouldn't either.
Interesting. Are there any other pointers to avoid what you're talking about? I'm wondering about wines that are mass-produced, ubiquitous and sold around the world. Are you talking about blended wines? What about the bigger names in lower-priced wines (e.g., Mouton Cadet)? What about vinho verdes from Portugal?
What are the hallmarks of a lower-priced offerings from a region that were manhandled? This is an honest question - I'm not sure I would know what to look for.
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Interesting. Are there any other pointers to avoid what you're talking about? I'm wondering about wines that are mass-produced, ubiquitous and sold around the world. Are you talking about blended wines? What about the bigger names in lower-priced wines (e.g., Mouton Cadet)? What about vinho verdes from Portugal?
What are the hallmarks of a lower-priced offerings from a region that were manhandled? This is an honest question - I'm not sure I would know what to look for.
I'll try to break down the basics without getting too nerdy about it.
Blends and varietals are both susceptible to poor wine quality issues and undesirable quick fixes. Producers will not disclose their less attractive practices and salespeople will lie (so emails will not help).
Mouton Cadet and vinho verde are two great examples to break down though.
Let's take Mouton Cadet first. It's a Bordeaux that retails for about $11.99. Bordeaux wines can be some of the most expensive in the world and prices can range from the aforementioned $11.99 to $5k+. I would say that an average good Bordeaux costs $75/btl. Now I've never tasted Mouton Cadet so this is speculation but I do not think it is a reach to say that they started with the lowest quality fruit or new wine in the Bordeaux region. Or else, one of the producers charging more for their end product wine would have purchased the fruit/new wine for more money than Mouton Cadet would pay. Therefore, there is a high chance that the wine has been altered through methods I would find undesirable to make that lower quality fruit/wine into something inoffensive. For example, dollars to donuts, I'm sure they use oak dust instead of oak barrels.
Next, the vinho verde- a personal summer favorite of mine. Vinho verde is a type of wine produced in northern Portugal. Portugal is one of the cheapest countries to produce wine in Europe and vinho verde is a fast, inexpensive wine to produce. I would estimate that their prices range from $5 to $25. A $12 bottle of vinho verde, as opposed to our Bordeaux above, would probably be a good example of its type and would have most probably been made from quality fruit and processed well without major issue. So, this bottle of wine would probably not have many, if any, additives added to it.
So, to avoid wines that have been manhandled takes a little bit of time and maybe a bit of google. Avoid the cheapest wines from a region; there's a reason they are cheap. Your biggest names can be the least expensive but not necessarily. The bigger producers will have a greater chance of using a lot of "science" in their winemaking though- they want their wine to be uniform across vintages and can afford the more expensive equipment like the Velcorin. So if you have two identically priced wines from the same region, one from a tiny producer and one from a large one, chances are the tiny producer is putting less additives in their wine.
Now, let's say you are a fan of Mouton Cadet and are disappointed to hear that there is a likely chance they are doing things to the wine you are not crazy about. Then look for a place that makes a similar style wine at a lessor cost so good quality is less expensive on average. If you want to stay in France, then I would recommend Jura. And for worldwide right bank Bordeaux-style then Chile who can throw out merlots like the best of them.
HTH!
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Thanks for the info! As it happens, I do not like Mouton Cadet (haven't tried it in well over 20 years; I chose to mention it because it's EVERYWHERE) but I like a good, light, dry vinho verde with a really low alcohol content.
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@Kelly
Yes, Mega Purple! Probably those bottles selling at 50$ a bottle don't have it in them but anything destined for mass consumption has a larger than not chance of having it inside.
For example, dollars to donuts, I'm sure they use oak dust instead of oak barrels.
So, to avoid wines that have been manhandled takes a little bit of time and maybe a bit of google.
Nothing wrong with oak dust. If we have two wine samples that both taste "as good" as the other, it does not matter that one used cubes and one used dust.
Regarding "manhandling", except for copper sulfate usage (even then, it is debatable), there is nothing wrong with the additives being used in winemaking. They all work to increase/reduce the quantity of elements already found in grapes and must. Take sugar for instance, grape juice is 20-30% sugar by weight, what does it matter that the winemaker added sugar to compensate for the fact that a growing season was poor?
Most additives are not even synthetic and are sourced naturally. Anyone worrying about chemicals should likely research the quantity of pesticides and fungicides used on 99% of all commercial grapes more than the winemaking additives.
I get that you are likely biased since you work in the industry and low quality grape wines are threatening the profitability of "pure" wines made with minimal alterations.
But it's like refusing to use power tools when you are building wood furniture.
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American Greed did an episode on this guy. It was a fascinating episode.
They put a lot of blame on the auction houses for continuing to sell this guy's stuff even after they were presented with credible evidence that huge portions of his "collection" had to be fraudulent. I think they were either getting privately sued or possibly even facing criminal charges for selling counterfeit goods.
Also, the prevailing theory is this operation was way too large and complex for him to pull off by himself and that he is probably the face/fall guy for a larger organized crime outfit. The fact that he has said literally nothing to the press and almost nothing to police basically confirms there's something he's more scared of than his damaged reputation.
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@guses
To each their own. Personally, I think the taste of oak dust is foul but most people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And regarding sugar, I was talking about back sweetening to make an otherwise undesirable wine drinkable, not a pre-fermentation sugar addition. Since there are no label requirements for wine as there is for non-alcohol containing consumables, most people don't realize how much sugar, in its original form, is in most inexpensive wine.
Regarding whether additions, specific ones like velcorin and copper, or all of them, are a "bad" thing or not. I'm about education. And the vast majority of the wine drinking public accept the romanticized advertised version of the charming winemaker, some grapes, yeast and barrels. But for many wines, particularly less expensive wines, it's about chemistry and science. If someone's cool with that, as you evidently are, that's great. However, when people ask me like Meghan did, I can be pretty vocal about my opinions. It's not a profitability thing; it's a passion thing.
The analogy of power and hand tools. To me, using power tools vs hand tools in winemaking is using pumps and micro-oxy versus gravity flow and naturally timed oxidation. Large scale stripping agents and additive addition is like using plywood versus solid lumber. Sure it has lots of the same components and can look the same once it's covered with veneer or painted, but to someone who knows what they are looking at, they're two completely different animals.
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@guses
To each their own. Personally, I think the taste of oak dust is foul but most people probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference. And regarding sugar, I was talking about back sweetening to make an otherwise undesirable wine drinkable, not a pre-fermentation sugar addition. Since there are no label requirements for wine as there is for non-alcohol containing consumables, most people don't realize how much sugar, in its original form, is in most inexpensive wine.
Regarding whether additions, specific ones like velcorin and copper, or all of them, are a "bad" thing or not. I'm about education. And the vast majority of the wine drinking public accept the romanticized advertised version of the charming winemaker, some grapes, yeast and barrels. But for many wines, particularly less expensive wines, it's about chemistry and science. If someone's cool with that, as you evidently are, that's great. However, when people ask me like Meghan did, I can be pretty vocal about my opinions. It's not a profitability thing; it's a passion thing.
The analogy of power and hand tools. To me, using power tools vs hand tools in winemaking is using pumps and micro-oxy versus gravity flow and naturally timed oxidation. Large scale stripping agents and additive addition is like using plywood versus solid lumber. Sure it has lots of the same components and can look the same once it's covered with veneer or painted, but to someone who knows what they are looking at, they're two completely different animals.
Thanks for weighing in. I understand where you are coming from.
My perspective is that of a home winemaker with very limited access to real fruit, much less real quality fruit. I can only dream of handling fruit requiring no major manhandling! It needs all the help it can get!
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@Kelly
Yes, Mega Purple! Probably those bottles selling at 50$ a bottle don't have it in them but anything destined for mass consumption has a larger than not chance of having it inside.
For example, dollars to donuts, I'm sure they use oak dust instead of oak barrels.
So, to avoid wines that have been manhandled takes a little bit of time and maybe a bit of google.
Nothing wrong with oak dust. If we have two wine samples that both taste "as good" as the other, it does not matter that one used cubes and one used dust.
Regarding "manhandling", except for copper sulfate usage (even then, it is debatable), there is nothing wrong with the additives being used in winemaking. They all work to increase/reduce the quantity of elements already found in grapes and must. Take sugar for instance, grape juice is 20-30% sugar by weight, what does it matter that the winemaker added sugar to compensate for the fact that a growing season was poor?
Most additives are not even synthetic and are sourced naturally. Anyone worrying about chemicals should likely research the quantity of pesticides and fungicides used on 99% of all commercial grapes more than the winemaking additives.
I get that you are likely biased since you work in the industry and low quality grape wines are threatening the profitability of "pure" wines made with minimal alterations.
But it's like refusing to use power tools when you are building wood furniture.
I'm not an expert, but I think a better analogy should stay in the food/drink category. so maybe comparing adding shaved truffles to a dish vs. adding Truffle Oil (a chemical perfume with no organic origin).
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I'm not an expert, but I think a better analogy should stay in the food/drink category. so maybe comparing adding shaved truffles to a dish vs. adding Truffle Oil (a chemical perfume with no organic origin).
Good point, but I do see where Guses was going with this
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Fuck me, if you can't tell the difference between $4 wine and $200 wine, you should just be drinking $4 wine.
Also, if anyone wants good wine cheap, get on the K&L mailing list. They'll often have highly rated wine for $10, 15, 20 bucks - stuff that punches way above its weight.
The real deal is repeatability. Given blind tastes, can you repeatably know which ones you consider good? If so, you can probably do a decent job of ignoring the wine label, finding what you like, finding what you like cheap, and saving yourself quite a few dollars. If not, if your perception is all over the place, then save yourself some money - pay a friend $3 to tell you that your $7 wine actually cost $50, and you've saved 40 bucks!
Though I might point out that considering how subjective taste is, considering how much people value "the experience," an expensive label will literally make wine taste better to many people.
While I'm not much of a wine guy, I can very easily tell the difference between hard alcohols... not that the quality necessarily correlates with price, but I can tell what I like with very high repeatability. (Hell, someone set me up a blind tasting of my own stuff, I got it right, despite not even having tried one of the bottles yet.) The good news there is that, just like wine, you can find good stuff for a low price. The bad news is that I can very easily tell good from bad, and the really cheap crap ($9 bourbon) doesn't make me nearly as happy as $26 bourbon. The good news is that I'd rather have $26 bourbon than $126 bourbon even if they were the same price.
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I'm actually kind of afraid of trying nicer wine, because what if I really like it, and it ruins the enjoyment of the wine I currently drink? I have the same feelings about expensive coffee. I do enjoy expensive coffee, but it also costs 4x as much. So I drink tea instead.
Just use geo-arbitrage to your advantage. Stick with places with relatively low production costs (cheap land, cheap labor) and the resulting wine quality can be quite good for a lower cost- the low hanging fruit are Portugal, Spain, Chile, Argentina.
One thing to remember about wine. The lower priced offerings from a region most likely started with something wrong with them- poor grape quality, a mistake during the winemaking process, or both. Then someone fixed it as best they could (stripping agents) then tried to make it drinkable (additives, especially lots of sugar). So, those cheap wines have had a lot of manhandling outside of the romanticized basics. I don't want to drink that- not just for a snobby winemaking reason, or because it tastes nasty, but because I don't want to consume velcorin, copper and lots of added sugar. And I think if more people were aware of the details, they wouldn't either.
Ironically the wines I drink are usually from Australia, South America. Right now been drinking Lindemman's (bin series shiraz and chardonnay) and also Concha y Toro Frontera wines. Since I can get them on sale for very cheap pls don't tell me how terrible they are! I am also a fan of the vino verde wines, and also prosecco in the summer.
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I like Priorat wines, I think they are a good value but they are not cheap. $30+ a bottle is the norm.
They have a blueberry base fruit note.
I personally avoid cherry base fruit note wines because I don't like canned cherry (most Italian stuff)
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I just watched the documentary. It was facinating. I do not doubt a master wine maker (or someone possessing the necessary skills and talent) can mix different wines to get a specific tasting profile. I have spoken to wine makers at trade shows and that's exactly how they think about their blend for a particular vintage. Rudy is using his skill to commit crimes rather than making awesome wines. I think his skill set will be in demand when he gets out. There are not that many people with his level of tasting skill.
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I haven't watched the documentary, but I am a bit surprised that he ended up in jail.
Was he blending wine and selling it for exorbitant amounts (which IMO is fine) or blending the wine and then claiming it was something else?
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My father in law had once inherited some quite expensive wines from his sister, who's husband had been secretary of state. Father in law had not bothered to store them properly or change the cork after 25 years. Then one christmas dinner he opened one of those bottles for us. It had turned into pure vinegar. What a petty. We just poored it into the sink.
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I haven't watched the documentary, but I am a bit surprised that he ended up in jail.
Was he blending wine and selling it for exorbitant amounts (which IMO is fine) or blending the wine and then claiming it was something else?
It's the second case of course otherwise it's just good business
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I haven't watched the documentary, but I am a bit surprised that he ended up in jail.
Was he blending wine and selling it for exorbitant amounts (which IMO is fine) or blending the wine and then claiming it was something else?
It's the second case of course otherwise it's just good business
And then selling to rich people. I think if you do that and sell it to poor people, you probably just pay a fine.
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My father in law had once inherited some quite expensive wines from his sister, who's husband had been secretary of state. Father in law had not bothered to store them properly or change the cork after 25 years. Then one christmas dinner he opened one of those bottles for us. It had turned into pure vinegar. What a petty. We just poored it into the sink.
You're not supposed to change the cork, are you? I've never heard of this.
Anyways, yeah, if you're going to be Mr Big Man (or Lady) and have a cellar of expensive wine, it needs to be climate controlled. It also needs decent record-keeping; wine doesn't improve forever - pretty much anything that isn't fortified wine has a peak date, and then it just gets worse, even if it's stored perfectly. If you can't drink it on time, just sell it - there are quite a few well-known retailers who will buy your wine with good records of temperature etc, and resell it. (The really expensive stuff can be auctioned, of course.)
Otherwise you're just buying cases of $$$ wine, storing them for a couple decades, and pouring them down the sink. Seems like a waste of time and space. And money.
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You're not supposed to change the cork, are you? I've never heard of this.
According to a wine book that I have at home, you are supposed to do this with expensive wines. Every 25 years or so. Haven't read this in other places.
For me personally it is not an issue. We don't invest in wines. In our new house we don't have a cellar, so we have bought a cooled wine closet. It would have been cheaper with a good cellar. And we looked for a long time for a second hand one and couldn't find one of the right size. But we only keep wines for some years until we drink them.
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$20 for a bottle of wine in the USA seems very expensive given how cheap food seems to be.
Maybe I have terrible taste but living in a high cost of living city in a high cost of living country (Australia), $10-15 gets a perfectly reasonable bottle.
We have a bottle shop here that only sells cleanskins. Most come from nearby wineries and are $15-30+ bottles packaged in cheap bottles with minimal labels and sold in the $8-17 price range. They'll even let you try before you buy.
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$20 for a bottle of wine in the USA seems very expensive given how cheap food seems to be.
Relative to other countries I've been to, meat, dairy and packaged foods are cheaper in the US than elsewhere. Produce is more expensive than China, Mexico and Spain, but less expensive than the UK, France, Canada or Germany. Off-sale alcohol (that is, alcohol sold in a store, not in a restaurant or bar) is more expensive than anywhere but the London area.
Part of that is the vice taxes on alcohol, I think.
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$20 for a bottle of wine in the USA seems very expensive given how cheap food seems to be.
Relative to other countries I've been to, meat, dairy and packaged foods are cheaper in the US than elsewhere. Produce is more expensive than China, Mexico and Spain, but less expensive than the UK, France, Canada or Germany. Off-sale alcohol (that is, alcohol sold in a store, not in a restaurant or bar) is more expensive than anywhere but the London area.
Part of that is the vice taxes on alcohol, I think.
Wine purchased in a store is much cheaper in the US than in Canada, even taking into account the value of the CAD$.
Two buck chuck is like 10 bucks here (if they sold it here, that is).
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Interesting. Are there any other pointers to avoid what you're talking about? I'm wondering about wines that are mass-produced, ubiquitous and sold around the world. Are you talking about blended wines? What about the bigger names in lower-priced wines (e.g., Mouton Cadet)? What about vinho verdes from Portugal?
What are the hallmarks of a lower-priced offerings from a region that were manhandled? This is an honest question - I'm not sure I would know what to look for.
I'll try to break down the basics without getting too nerdy about it.
Blends and varietals are both susceptible to poor wine quality issues and undesirable quick fixes. Producers will not disclose their less attractive practices and salespeople will lie (so emails will not help).
Mouton Cadet and vinho verde are two great examples to break down though.
Let's take Mouton Cadet first. It's a Bordeaux that retails for about $11.99. Bordeaux wines can be some of the most expensive in the world and prices can range from the aforementioned $11.99 to $5k+. I would say that an average good Bordeaux costs $75/btl. Now I've never tasted Mouton Cadet so this is speculation but I do not think it is a reach to say that they started with the lowest quality fruit or new wine in the Bordeaux region. Or else, one of the producers charging more for their end product wine would have purchased the fruit/new wine for more money than Mouton Cadet would pay. Therefore, there is a high chance that the wine has been altered through methods I would find undesirable to make that lower quality fruit/wine into something inoffensive. For example, dollars to donuts, I'm sure they use oak dust instead of oak barrels.
Next, the vinho verde- a personal summer favorite of mine. Vinho verde is a type of wine produced in northern Portugal. Portugal is one of the cheapest countries to produce wine in Europe and vinho verde is a fast, inexpensive wine to produce. I would estimate that their prices range from $5 to $25. A $12 bottle of vinho verde, as opposed to our Bordeaux above, would probably be a good example of its type and would have most probably been made from quality fruit and processed well without major issue. So, this bottle of wine would probably not have many, if any, additives added to it.
So, to avoid wines that have been manhandled takes a little bit of time and maybe a bit of google. Avoid the cheapest wines from a region; there's a reason they are cheap. Your biggest names can be the least expensive but not necessarily. The bigger producers will have a greater chance of using a lot of "science" in their winemaking though- they want their wine to be uniform across vintages and can afford the more expensive equipment like the Velcorin. So if you have two identically priced wines from the same region, one from a tiny producer and one from a large one, chances are the tiny producer is putting less additives in their wine.
Now, let's say you are a fan of Mouton Cadet and are disappointed to hear that there is a likely chance they are doing things to the wine you are not crazy about. Then look for a place that makes a similar style wine at a lessor cost so good quality is less expensive on average. If you want to stay in France, then I would recommend Jura. And for worldwide right bank Bordeaux-style then Chile who can throw out merlots like the best of them.
HTH!
Awesome information. You should start a thread about how to choose a nice, but inexpensive bottle of wine through geography. :)
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According to a wine book that I have at home, you are supposed to do this with expensive wines. Every 25 years or so. Haven't read this in other places.
For me personally it is not an issue. We don't invest in wines. In our new house we don't have a cellar, so we have bought a cooled wine closet. It would have been cheaper with a good cellar. And we looked for a long time for a second hand one and couldn't find one of the right size. But we only keep wines for some years until we drink them.
Oh well that explains it. I don't know much about storing wine for 25 years, so I head never heard of this. Thanks.
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This documentary was great! It really shows how ridiculous the 'expensive wine market' really is. Wine snobs drive me nuts though..so maybe I enjoyed it more than most.
When you think about it, wine is really just 'aged adult grape juice'. I really don't understand the mystique about it.
Personally, I think Trader Joes has many great wines for $5-$6 a bottle.
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Awesome information. You should start a thread about how to choose a nice, but inexpensive bottle of wine through geography. :)
Aw, thanks 4alpacas! I'm up to ears now in holiday orders (my side gig) but I'll try to find the time in a few weeks.
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Awesome information. You should start a thread about how to choose a nice, but inexpensive bottle of wine through geography. :)
Aw, thanks 4alpacas! I'm up to ears now in holiday orders (my side gig) but I'll try to find the time in a few weeks.
Awesome! I'll start stalking your posts :)
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When you think about it, wine is really just 'aged adult grape juice'. I really don't understand the mystique about it.
Fermented grape juice, not necessarily aged. :)
Ironically, it was historically actually fairly hard to make grape juice - doing so reliably is a fairly recent invention. If you smush some grapes and bottle the juice, you'll end up with wine unless you take extra steps.
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Reminds me of the Sommelier episode from Parks and Rec where April pretends to be a sommelier just for fun:
https://youtu.be/ZF_xg4QaLNE
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I talked to my father. He has been in the restaurant business his adult life, self-taught, and often was the one choosing the wine for the restaurant. He and his extended family used to make wine. I mentioned how I like $5-10 bottles, and he said that was too cheap, and to look for $15-20 bottles. Said he enjoys wine but it is too expensive to drink regularly. I guess I should have asked what he likes. He is one of the few people I would trust actually can tell the difference between a bad and good bottle of wine. For fun will buy multiple bottles of a certain place, year, and open them on successive anniversaries to see how they taste.
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"When your expensive wine is actually just carefully blended cheap wine "
Isn't the expertise of the careful blending what allows them to charge more? If it wasn't carefully blended, it would taste like crap.
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"When your expensive wine is actually just carefully blended cheap wine "
Isn't the expertise of the careful blending what allows them to charge more? If it wasn't carefully blended, it would taste like crap.
Not really. If you start with decent grapes and yeast, sterilize your gear, and go through the right steps with the water and sugar in the right proportions and with everything within a reasonable temperature range, the wine will turn out at least OK, proportionate to the quality of the grapes.
Any reasonable sized commercial operation is going to combine wine from multiple barrels just to get a standard flavor for each year. It will vary from year to year depending on the growing conditions. Some years the grapes are going to taste different. Maybe there's too much rain or too little. Maybe they are hit with the wrong kind of fungus. If it's a bad harvest, you may not be able to afford the best grapes. Then of course there's process. Maybe something gets goofed up and a step gets missed. Someone forgets to sterilize the gear, or a disgruntled employee pees in your primary fermenter. Maybe you lose power to your HVAC system, your yeast mutates, or some dumbass ages a batch of wine in the wrong barrels. It can change the taste of the end results. When this happens, you will have the kind of problem that MIGHT be correctable by an expert vintner who knows how to add eye of newt to compensate for excess toe of frog. (An amateur like me is basically screwed.)
For some, the solution to pollution ends up being dilution. I'm not saying it's fair or right, I'm saying it's an alternative to throwing out the entire vat of product and a big part of your year's gross income.
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I talked to my father. He has been in the restaurant business his adult life, self-taught, and often was the one choosing the wine for the restaurant. He and his extended family used to make wine. I mentioned how I like $5-10 bottles, and he said that was too cheap, and to look for $15-20 bottles. Said he enjoys wine but it is too expensive to drink regularly. I guess I should have asked what he likes. He is one of the few people I would trust actually can tell the difference between a bad and good bottle of wine. For fun will buy multiple bottles of a certain place, year, and open them on successive anniversaries to see how they taste.
I guess it is all in what you like - everyone is different. However, to say that $5-$10 bottles are 'too cheap' is a bit ridiculous.
I have had plenty of 'mid priced' wines and many of them were terrible ( to me ). In fact, I often like the 'cheaper' bottles more! The beauty of this is that I can try many more varieties than at a much lower price...This way I can find something I truly like.
I feel that far to many people fall into the 'expensive wine trap'...telling themselves that they WILL like it ( due to cost, etc.. ).
I guess I'm fortunate to have a 'cheap' taste in wine... :-)
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I talked to my father. He has been in the restaurant business his adult life, self-taught, and often was the one choosing the wine for the restaurant. He and his extended family used to make wine. I mentioned how I like $5-10 bottles, and he said that was too cheap, and to look for $15-20 bottles. Said he enjoys wine but it is too expensive to drink regularly. I guess I should have asked what he likes. He is one of the few people I would trust actually can tell the difference between a bad and good bottle of wine. For fun will buy multiple bottles of a certain place, year, and open them on successive anniversaries to see how they taste.
I guess it is all in what you like - everyone is different. However, to say that $5-$10 bottles are 'too cheap' is a bit ridiculous.
I have had plenty of 'mid priced' wines and many of them were terrible ( to me ). In fact, I often like the 'cheaper' bottles more! The beauty of this is that I can try many more varieties than at a much lower price...This way I can find something I truly like.
I feel that far to many people fall into the 'expensive wine trap'...telling themselves that they WILL like it ( due to cost, etc.. ).
I guess I'm fortunate to have a 'cheap' taste in wine... :-)
I can't buy good wine to save my life. I have my two or so cheap 'go-tos' if I need something for a party, but outside of that I've struck out as often as I have scored. Just not an avenue I'm super interested in dedicating a lot of resources to.
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...huge discount...
Maybe. Maybe not.
https://www.truthinadvertising.org/wines-til-sold-discounts/
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Speaking of cheap wine, you get get 5L of ~14% red wine for about $9-10 here.
5L at 14% is 700mL of pure ethanol; that's 70mL ethanol per $1.
As far as I know, there is literally no cheaper way to drink in the US.
The cheapest liquor I've ever seen, which I did actually buy a bottle of, was 40% ethanol @ 750ML @ $5. (Distiller's Pride bourbon - it was actually totally okay bourbon, for $5, I'd buy more.)
That works out to 60mL ethanol per $1, pretty close, but still not as cheap as box wine.
TL;DR Buy the highest proof, cheapest box wine, and you'll get drunk cheaper than literally any other option on the market (that I know of.)
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Speaking of cheap wine, you get get 5L of ~14% red wine for about $9-10 here.
5L at 14% is 700mL of pure ethanol; that's 70mL ethanol per $1.
As far as I know, there is literally no cheaper way to drink in the US.
The cheapest liquor I've ever seen, which I did actually buy a bottle of, was 40% ethanol @ 750ML @ $5. (Distiller's Pride bourbon - it was actually totally okay bourbon, for $5, I'd buy more.)
That works out to 60mL ethanol per $1, pretty close, but still not as cheap as box wine.
TL;DR Buy the highest proof, cheapest box wine, and you'll get drunk cheaper than literally any other option on the market (that I know of.)
I don't go in liquor stores very often, but I don't think I've ever been in one where they didn't have 1.75L of 80 proof for 8-10 bucks. That's 87.5ml/$1 or a 25% savings.
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TL;DR Buy the highest proof, cheapest box wine, and you'll get drunk cheaper than literally any other option on the market (that I know of.)
Is the purpose of drinking to get drunk though? I know very few people who get drunk when they drink.
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TL;DR Buy the highest proof, cheapest box wine, and you'll get drunk cheaper than literally any other option on the market (that I know of.)
Is the purpose of drinking to get drunk though? I know very few people who get drunk when they drink.
Sounds like you're drinking with boring "classy" people...
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TL;DR Buy the highest proof, cheapest box wine, and you'll get drunk cheaper than literally any other option on the market (that I know of.)
Is the purpose of drinking to get drunk though? I know very few people who get drunk when they drink.
Sounds like you're drinking with boring "classy" people...
This reminds me of my college days and a game we called Slap Bag. The person who finishes the bag/box gets to keep the dispenser as a trophy, one time a friend of mine wanted it so badly he ran off with it while there was still a good chunk left and hid from us while he chugged it.
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TL;DR Buy the highest proof, cheapest box wine, and you'll get drunk cheaper than literally any other option on the market (that I know of.)
Is the purpose of drinking to get drunk though? I know very few people who get drunk when they drink.
Sounds like you're drinking with boring "classy" people...
And there are also those "classy people" who drink (way too much) wine because it is "good for you".
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I don't go in liquor stores very often, but I don't think I've ever been in one where they didn't have 1.75L of 80 proof for 8-10 bucks. That's 87.5ml/$1 or a 25% savings.
I've been to many liquor stores, never seen it that cheap. Where do you live? And what does your store charge for a box of wine?
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No idea. I don't go in very often and have never priced out boxed wine. Maybe I'll make a trip and report back.
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Am I the only one who find sub$20 wine are mostly one note wine that is not balanced? Pls recommend some of your favorite so I can join in on the cheap wine club.
Boones Farm Wine!
Oh, wait, that was 45 years ago.
Never mind.
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Boones Farm Wine!
Oh, wait, that was 45 years ago.
Never mind.
Oh my... this stuff is terrible... Maybe I am a secret wine snob, but Boones Farm is (to me) a waste of money - it's not enjoyable to drink, and the alcohol content is not high enough to compensate for that.
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^ +1, and I'd also add that Franzia is in a similar category. Although the alcohol content is a little higher, so YMMV.
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$20 for a bottle of wine in the USA seems very expensive given how cheap food seems to be.
Maybe I have terrible taste but living in a high cost of living city in a high cost of living country (Australia), $10-15 gets a perfectly reasonable bottle.
We have a bottle shop here that only sells cleanskins. Most come from nearby wineries and are $15-30+ bottles packaged in cheap bottles with minimal labels and sold in the $8-17 price range. They'll even let you try before you buy.
FWIW: I'm in the US. We pay $20 when we want "the good stuff to celebrate." Hell, the majority of the time we drink "nice" boxed wine. ;)
I've been forcing myself to buy a $10-15 bottle of "good" wine every time we go to the grocery store because I've finally come to realize we saved too much and will likely never spend it all.