Author Topic: When are you guys going to start living it up?  (Read 11059 times)

cbr shadow

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When are you guys going to start living it up?
« on: August 09, 2016, 11:02:57 AM »
I was out to dinner with a friend recently and was telling him about how I'm starting a new job, which requires that my wife and I buy a car (We've both been working from home up until this point).  My friend started recommending some very expensive ($60k+) cars, until I interupted saying "I'm looking at Kia's on Craigslist".  He paused and shook his head, then said "You guys have high incomes... when will you start living it up?"
This comment took me by surprise, since I feel like we ARE living it up.  We're from Chicago but lived in Australia for the last 2 years, now in San Francisco.  We've travel more than anyone I know, are super active and training for triathlons, both generally happy with our jobs, spend lots of time outdoors, etc.  I actually can't think of any way to improve on 'living it up" other than not having to work at all.
Last year we did 2 trips to the Great Barrier Reef and scuba certified (with 18 reef dives and 3 night dives), 4 weekend trips around Australia including Tasmania, 4 days in NZ, and 4 in Fiji.  We also decided to buy a car there, which was $4400 AUD (Ford Fiesta) which ran great and was an excellent choice, but caused us to get some negative comments from coworkers/friends driving expensive BMW's.  I think my friend falls into this category by looking only at the items we have without considering that we might be getting lots of cool experiences or are secretly building a huge stache.
He's right about our income being high ($250-280k household, no kids) but we also live in a HCOL area and have a very high savings rate. 

My friend's comment was also a bit of a surprise because he used to follow Mustachian principals, so the idea isn't new to him.  I got him started on MMM articles 3-4 years ago, and he and his wife made some changes in their lives (better investing, cutting back on spending).  More recently they've gone the opposite direction with lots of spending and some poor choices, but I didn't think his mind was completely changed about Mustachianism.

These comments shouldn't bother me, but somehow they do.  It's probably my ego getting involved, but I feel like we should "get credit" for making lots of good choices.  That doesn't exactly make sense and there's no real solution besides continuing to live our lives the way we want to, but it's frustrating nonetheless. 





mbl

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2016, 11:30:04 AM »
I have to go back to "why does it matter to you what someone else thinks of your personal and private choices?"
To each his own.  Or is it an ego thing?

If you're happy and comfortable with the choices that you are making, that's all that matters.

You have no idea what might motivate someone else to do what they do.
Just because it's different than what you would choose doesn't lessen it's validity for them.

Maybe it came as an insult to you because you feel that you've done things that you think deserve some props or recognition.  But the fact is,  most people besides those who truly care about you, don't give a shit that you went scuba diving in Australia.  Or any other of the things that you listed.    They're your experiences don't really enter the radar space of other people unless they were there with you or have similar experiences and values.

Let it go.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 11:58:19 AM by mbl »

jinga nation

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2016, 02:39:41 PM »
My friend's comment was also a bit of a surprise because he used to follow Mustachian principals, so the idea isn't new to him.  I got him started on MMM articles 3-4 years ago, and he and his wife made some changes in their lives (better investing, cutting back on spending).  More recently they've gone the opposite direction with lots of spending and some poor choices, but I didn't think his mind was completely changed about Mustachianism.

These comments shouldn't bother me, but somehow they do.  It's probably my ego getting involved, but I feel like we should "get credit" for making lots of good choices.  That doesn't exactly make sense and there's no real solution besides continuing to live our lives the way we want to, but it's frustrating nonetheless.
Your friend thinks the MMM way is the 100/110m hurdles race when it actually a financial decathlon, or even better, the ironman. He's given up. Accept it. You tried to change him, for that I'll give you an A for Effort.

Your ego is bruised as you expected recognition for your good choice. Buddhism's 2nd Noble truth in play. Solution is the 3rd Noble Truth.
In a materialistic society, do not expect rewards while you attempt to simplify your life. It's like going to a bar, standing on the counter, and yelling that you quit drinking, being called a loser despite your best intentions.

Tyrist

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2016, 03:28:14 PM »
These comments shouldn't bother me, but somehow they do.  It's probably my ego getting involved, but I feel like we should "get credit" for making lots of good choices.  That doesn't exactly make sense and there's no real solution besides continuing to live our lives the way we want to, but it's frustrating nonetheless.

I sympathize with this sentiment since I get mostly eye rolls and jokes about my life choices.  I in no way feel deprived but apparently to the general population I am not living life.

marty998

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2016, 03:59:26 PM »
They're telling you what they value, you're living what you value.

libertarian4321

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2016, 04:16:43 PM »
"I'm looking at Kia's on Craigslist"

I'm guessing a used Kia will get your butt from point A to point B as well as a BMW 7-Series.

Since that is, at it's core, what a car is supposed to do, why not buy the used car?

chesebert

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2016, 09:21:13 AM »
OP, your friend may just want you to get an expensive toy so he could enjoy it from time to time or he may just be joking. Stop thinking too hard.

LivlongnProsper

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2016, 09:27:21 AM »
Sounds to me like you are living it up. Your friend has made his own choices and will have to follow the path chosen. Chill.

Making Cookies

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2016, 03:32:31 PM »
You ought to live it up - buy a Kia with a heater and FM radio!

FIRE me

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2016, 11:45:19 PM »
I was out to dinner with a friend recently and was telling him about how I'm starting a new job, which requires that my wife and I buy a car (We've both been working from home up until this point).  My friend started recommending some very expensive ($60k+) cars, until I interupted saying "I'm looking at Kia's on Craigslist".  He paused and shook his head, then said "You guys have high incomes... when will you start living it up?"

[...]
These comments shouldn't bother me, but somehow they do.  It's probably my ego getting involved, but I feel like we should "get credit" for making lots of good choices.  That doesn't exactly make sense and there's no real solution besides continuing to live our lives the way we want to, but it's frustrating nonetheless.

It's just the opposite for me. When people helpfully tell me that I should be spending more, I feel warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I am doing it right.

Dicey

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2016, 12:27:07 AM »
I'm confused. Did you open your mouth and tell your friend that you ARE "living it up " in every way that is important to you?
Seems to me that should have been your immediate response.

Next thought is that friend knows he has fallen off MMM wagon and wants to make himself feel better by pulling you down too. Be strong. Caring little about what others think of your choices is part of the MMM holy grail.

TravelJunkyQC

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2016, 08:22:00 AM »
We get the same comments.

My best answer has been: "my car has a dent in its side, I can't tell you what happened last week on any damn TV show, and I have no fucking clue what new restaurants have opened recently, but I went surfing in Costa Rica last year and climbing in the Alps the year before. I'm living more than you are."

Arrogant? A little - but comments suggesting I'm not "living enough" due to my consumer spending habits are rather arrogant in their own right, so I tend to answer in kind.

Villanelle

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2016, 08:31:03 AM »
I guess I've gotten to the point where I'm pretty darn comfortable with our choices and our lifestyle.  I'm not totally immune to the occasional fit, during which I just want to point out my successes or compare my choices to their's, but in general, I don't feel that need.  "Start living it up?  We think our life is pretty amazing and we quite happy!"  That's it.  No bragging about the awesome things we've seen and done, or the exploding volcano of comfort that is our every day existence, or the balances in our accounts or our ability to retire quite comfortably someday.  Just a reassurance that we are good, and that's it. 


Chris22

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2016, 11:53:15 AM »
I think MMMers in general take a little too much offense to perceived slights.  The guy may simply think you're all work and no play, and not realize all the trips/travel, etc.  If he's a friend, he may just be busting balls a little bit.  A response of "yeah, I know, but we like to travel so we try to save money in other places to be able to take a lot of trips like that one we took to Fiji last year" probably would have sufficed. 

Whenever someone says we should do or buy something, I usually just say "We're saving for a trip to Europe" or "we're in the middle of renovating our house" (both true) and they usually give "oh, okay, that's cool."

Giro

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2016, 12:20:46 PM »
When reading the OP, I sort of felt that the numerous traveling was no different than the friend's expensive cars.

The point is that everyone spends their money on things they enjoy.  Buying a 60k car is NO DIFFERENT than traveling a lot.  You don't have to justify what you enjoy.


chesebert

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2016, 01:26:12 PM »
When reading the OP, I sort of felt that the numerous traveling was no different than the friend's expensive cars.

The point is that everyone spends their money on things they enjoy.  Buying a 60k car is NO DIFFERENT than traveling a lot.  You don't have to justify what you enjoy.

Agreed. I think OP and other folks here tend to separate spending into "things" vs "experiences" dichotomy when they are at the end of the day one and the same - giving your money to someone else in return for something you want.

Economically speaking and in terms of personal finance, there is really no material difference between spending $60k on a car and spending $6k a year during any 10 year period (let's not get bogged down by detailed calculus on the cost/value of car and vacation).

OP, had you not spent your money traveling and invested those amounts instead, would you have enough to buy that car your friend mentioned?

lifejoy

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2016, 01:58:22 PM »
OP, it is often hard to do different than our peer group. No one said this journey would be easy. We are here to support you in this forum, but sometimes real life can be hard.

Just remind yourself of what you're doing, and why. When I worked in a jewellery store, I was often told that "my husband should buy me bling because he's a doctor". Nothing about me buying it for myself with OUR money. Nothing about me not buying it because, well, saving all the monies. So hang in there. It's hard but keep on truckin' :) Oh - and read The Millionaire Next Door! :D Always comforts me.

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2016, 02:46:49 PM »
I think MMMers in general take a little too much offense to perceived slights.

Indeed we do. A group we've got some unreasonable expectations of others. We should probably reconsider these expectations and also our response when these expectations are not met.

We expect people to figure out that we've got a secret 'stache of money squirreled away, even though we've gone to great lengths to not advertise the fact. Why do we expect other people to be mind readers? We aren't mind readers ourselves; why should we expect so much more out of others?

We exercise independent choice in our financial lives, and come to a very different course of action than most: one that involves skipping or excluding a lot of activities most people consider normal. But when other people respond negatively to our decision to not hang out and partake of social activities with them, why do we get sad about feeling excluded when in reality we exclude ourselves?

We make financial decisions based on our personal values and are vocally happy about it. But when other people do the same, and make financial decisions based on THEIR values, we take it as a personal criticism. What for? It's not as though they're being spendypants at us, just for spite.

We expect people whose priorities, goals, and life choices differ radically from ours to acknowledge and praise our superior decisions. But according to the values and perspective they've got, our life decisions are not superior. In fact, by their standards, we are in fact failing hard. Why would we expect to be praised or acknowledged for things that are the exact opposite of what non-Mustachians value?

None of us will ever be hailed as a profit or visionary by someone who don't already share our perspective and values. It just can't happen.

Finally, when the rest of the non-Mustachian world fails to meet our unrealistic expectations and kiss our collective ass with quite enough tongue, why exactly do we decide our precious little feelings have been hurt and we whine amongst ourselves like a bunch of little bitches? This is not rational. Nor is it stoic, much less badass. It's not even profitable so far as I can see. Maybe we should do it less.

Villanelle

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2016, 10:02:22 PM »
I think MMMers in general take a little too much offense to perceived slights.

Indeed we do. A group we've got some unreasonable expectations of others. We should probably reconsider these expectations and also our response when these expectations are not met.

We expect people to figure out that we've got a secret 'stache of money squirreled away, even though we've gone to great lengths to not advertise the fact. Why do we expect other people to be mind readers? We aren't mind readers ourselves; why should we expect so much more out of others?

We exercise independent choice in our financial lives, and come to a very different course of action than most: one that involves skipping or excluding a lot of activities most people consider normal. But when other people respond negatively to our decision to not hang out and partake of social activities with them, why do we get sad about feeling excluded when in reality we exclude ourselves?

We make financial decisions based on our personal values and are vocally happy about it. But when other people do the same, and make financial decisions based on THEIR values, we take it as a personal criticism. What for? It's not as though they're being spendypants at us, just for spite.

We expect people whose priorities, goals, and life choices differ radically from ours to acknowledge and praise our superior decisions. But according to the values and perspective they've got, our life decisions are not superior. In fact, by their standards, we are in fact failing hard. Why would we expect to be praised or acknowledged for things that are the exact opposite of what non-Mustachians value?

None of us will ever be hailed as a profit or visionary by someone who don't already share our perspective and values. It just can't happen.

Finally, when the rest of the non-Mustachian world fails to meet our unrealistic expectations and kiss our collective ass with quite enough tongue, why exactly do we decide our precious little feelings have been hurt and we whine amongst ourselves like a bunch of little bitches? This is not rational. Nor is it stoic, much less badass. It's not even profitable so far as I can see. Maybe we should do it less.

Mostly I'm just quoting this because it needs to be said twice.

Yes!  So many people here get so wrapped around the axel about what are usually benign, harmless comments from others.  Gasp!  Your friend wants you to he happy??  How DARE he!  His version of happiness just doesn't quite align with yours.  If he's a good friend and you are comfortable, you can sort of explain where you are coming from (though in the specific case of the OP, it seems like friend knew that, or at least knew at one time and had maybe forgotten).  If he's not or you don't think it will do any good or it's just not something you want to share, then address the underlying issue, which is that someone is worried about your happiness.  Sure, maybe it's a passive aggressive swipe, but I think it's best to generally assume good intentions and act accordingly.  So reassure based on that underlying issue--you are doing so many great things that make you happy! and you're super happy and comfortable with your choices. 

It seems like there's a thread almost daily that, at it's heart, is someone bitching because they aren't being lauded by the world at large for their choices.  We do this shit because it's what we think will lead to the best life for us, not for accolades, right?  And at the heart of mustachianism is doing things because we've made examined decisions, rather than because of what others think, and yet there's this desperate need for validation from the world anyway.  How is that really much different than someone buying a $60k car because he thinks it says something positive about him to the world at large?  If we are in it for the admiration of others, buying a fancy car or a McMansion or a $1900 espresso machine isn't really much different than biking to work and packing lunches.  Sure, it makes our bank balances look better, but the motivation is just as unhealthy. 

My life is different from that of my friends in many ways.  Financially, sure.  But also things like not having kids, quitting my job to move overseas (and just the "moving overseas" part, even), and a zillion other things big and small.  I love and respect them as people, and I'm pretty sure they feel the same way.  I don't need them to tell me my choices are better than theirs, or even that my choices are good.  I don't even need them to think my decisions make sense.  It's okay if they think my 2000 Toyota Echo is crazy.  That decision isn't me as a person, so their understanding or agreement doesn't feel personal and more than it is personal when I see their new cars or their expensive handbags and think that's sort of silly.  Do those of you who feel so very judged when someone doesn't understand your mustachianism judge those around you for their non-mustachianism?  Is that why you feel so judged and negative about these things?  Because you do the same thing to others based on their choices?  Maybe that's the heart of this.  If you are a judgmental person who thinks less of those around you when they don't make the same decisions you would, it makes sense that you'd assume they do the same thing to you. 

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2016, 09:01:47 AM »
And at the heart of mustachianism is doing things because we've made examined decisions, rather than because of what others think, and yet there's this desperate need for validation from the world anyway.  How is that really much different than someone buying a $60k car because he thinks it says something positive about him to the world at large?  If we are in it for the admiration of others, buying a fancy car or a McMansion or a $1900 espresso machine isn't really much different than biking to work and packing lunches.  Sure, it makes our bank balances look better, but the motivation is just as unhealthy.

TheGrimSqueaker is in with the following clinical diagnosis. Too many people have developed severe subluxation of the fornication. In layperson's words: our ducks might be in a row but our fucks are seriously out of alignment.

In order to save, you have to be able to prioritize, organize, say no to what's unnecessary, and acquire and maintain skills that other people think are worth paying you for. But there's another entire side to the lifestyle. In order to be happy as a Mustachian, or in life overall, it's vital to have your fucks in a row too. Caring about the right things is important, but it's just as important to avoid caring about the wrong things.

Consider for a moment Maslow's hierarchy of needs. This can serve as a template for where fucks should be directed and allocated. The base of the pyramid is the largest, and it represents where the majority of our fucks need to be directed: toward survival needs. Stuff like food and shelter, and the things you use to provide food and shelter for your family are on this tier. This means your job AND your 'stache belong on this bottom, fundamental tier. The job provides immediate resources for food and shelter, whereas the 'stache provides those resources in the long term. Building your 'stache, therefore, is just as important as putting food on your plate today.

Farther up the pyramid are the non-survival needs related to emotional and social development. These too receive an allocation of fucks. Family, spiritual development (for some), security, and other things that help make us human reside here. The higher up the pyramid you go, the less critical the "need" is. In fact, you pass through the "want" territory and start edging into "nice to have". At the top of the pyramid is an all-seeing eye world domination the sort of nice-to-have that we would like but never expect to completely attain. (Except for the world conquest and domination bit.)

What healthy human beings do is instinctively assign resources and attention (in other words, fucks) to the base of the pyramid first and then work their way up. When more than one option exists for satisfying a need, a frugal person selects the minimum necessary to do so and thereby obtains the biggest bang for the buck (and the best return on his or her fuck-investment). This conserves fucks and makes it possible to direct the swive surplus elsewhere, such as toward the 'stache for long-term payoff.

Another important thing to realize is that life sucks. I don't mean that it's bad. I mean that things in life to which you direct fucks draw them continually like an electrical load connected to a voltage source draws current. Send forth one fuck toward an issue, and you're basically directing not just one fuck but a stream of fucks that can lead to an ongoing commitment. This is a good thing, because whether your family gets to eat NEEDS to be an ongoing commitment. Some things, like the rent or the phone bill, suck only limited resources. Other things, like an active addiction (yours or somebody else's), suck down all available resources and then some. They're like a short circuit in your life.

People whose lives are short circuited due to incorrect fuck alignment eventually develop compassion fatigue. People who are scrambling to meet their basic needs after financially exhausting themselves for nice-to-haves eventually hit a wall and are incapable of giving a fuck. They get to the point where everything is a major nuisance and a major inconvenience. That waiter or desk clerk who acts as though serving you is a major pain in the ass? Overloaded and burned out. That person who's too emotionally out of shape to get a job? Likewise. They're paralyzed. Eventually they snap, and they do what it takes to make the drain on increasingly limited resources go away. They hit their kids. They divorce. They quit their jobs. They do inappropriate things with firearms. They abuse drugs, alcohol, or video games to escape from reality. They blame the unavailability of fucks, resources, and attention (correctly) on everything around them that sucks, without realizing that they're the ones who connected all the power sinks. They also instinctively follow and support people who tell them that more resources will be made available to meet their needs (having been taken from other people who are inappropriately withholding them), or that all the power sinks are the fault of a clearly identifiable enemy that can be made to go away. Result: political polarization.

The higher up the pyramid you go, the more fucks things tend to draw. Non-Mustachians practice a form of priority inversion: spending on nice-to-have items without first establishing financial security. This can lead to bankruptcy, loss of resources for legitimate need, or a cat food diet in one's old age. But there's another mistake that can wreck even a Mustachian, and that's to direct fucks toward anything where the need expands to consume all available resources and attention.

Fucks, like financial resources or electrical potential, are finite. You self-replenish to a point, but your rate of fuck renewal is limited. When you exhaust your supply or let the fucks wander off, you won't be able to summon up the drive or focus to go after anything more including the lower levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You just don't care: the battery is dead. This kind of exhaustion comes on very quickly and it takes a long time and lots of rest before people recover. Some call it burnout. Others call it compassion fatigue. But what it really is, is critical depletion of the fornication reserves. It's impossible to predict exactly when the collapse will occur, although there are entire fields of management devoted to trying. You can actually die from it: it leads to major depression and all the bad health that goes along with it. Fuck exhaustion also leads to extreme behavior wherein a person will do just about anything in order to make the drain go away.

Fuck misalignment, therefore, is a life or death issue. That's one of the reasons we give each other facepunches: it's like going to the chiropractor for a fuck realignment. It's also why it's vital to cut off the fuck supply to things that can and will draw infinite resources. Enabling behavior, like chasing the monkeys in someone else's circus, is one example. So is sticking your nose into other people's business, or caring about whether a person with radically different values from you is keen on how you're running your life. You'll notice that neither of those things appear anywhere in Maslow's pyramid. There's a reason for that.

I'd venture to say, in closing, that correct fuck alignment is the essence of Stoicism. It's also the essence of intelligent life management.

Slee_stack

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2016, 10:55:52 AM »
Mustachians have turned their backs on outright materialism, but they have not lost their status seeking behavior.

That's all this is.

Very few humans can honestly say they don't seek status in one form or another.  The best we can do is work to minimize the amount we do it.

Absolutely, experiences are just as vain as objects when you are seeking the recognition of others.

dougules

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2016, 12:38:24 PM »
I think your friend missed the real point of MMM.  It's not about going without.  The point is mo money mo problems.  Simplification is happiness. 

Mustachians have turned their backs on outright materialism, but they have not lost their status seeking behavior.

That's all this is.

Very few humans can honestly say they don't seek status in one form or another.  The best we can do is work to minimize the amount we do it.

Absolutely, experiences are just as vain as objects when you are seeking the recognition of others.

I don't think having to minimize status seeking is something mustachians need to worry about.  It's just about realizing frugality and freedom are way better status symbols than the fancy car that was the 20th one of the assembly line just that day.  What's OP's status going to be to their friend when they float right out the office door on a cloud of FU money? 

Fancy car - $80k
Big house in the burbs - $800k
Being sound asleep while your friends are stuck in rush hour traffic - priceless

On second though, I own Toyota stock. You would look really great in a nice Lexus. 

scottish

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2016, 11:03:44 AM »
Quote
When reading the OP, I sort of felt that the numerous traveling was no different than the friend's expensive cars.

I disagree with that.   Buying expensive cars is almost always status seeking.   Many of my colleagues drive expensive cars at work ($40-$60K BMWs.).   Only one of them takes his BMW to the track.    Most of these folks are seeking status, not the BMW driving experience.   

Travelling to climb in the alps or training to run a triathlon - nobody knows you're doing that.   This is self-fulfilling behaviour, not status seeking behaviour.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2016, 11:44:14 AM »
Travelling to climb in the alps or training to run a triathlon - nobody knows you're doing that.   This is self-fulfilling behaviour, not status seeking behaviour.

Maybe there are people who are really into travel and I don't know about it, but there are definitely people who like to impress others with how well-traveled or into fitness they are.

nobodyspecial

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2016, 12:42:22 PM »
"I'm looking at Kia's on Craigslist"

I'm guessing a used Kia will get your butt from point A to point B as well as a BMW 7-Series.
The kia has the drawback that it has to stop for red lights and stop signs.

Making Cookies

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2016, 01:28:19 PM »
But at least it doesn't get the occupants soaked when it rains and it comes with back wheels standard. I'd buy a Kia but I have to wear out my Chevy first.

Davids

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2016, 02:01:15 PM »
If someone tells me I should "live it up more" I would come back at them with asking them how I should live it up so I can hear their response. Then depending on my mood I may respond back with the different foreign countries my wife and I have visited or other adventures we have had knowing that most likely their answer of living it up will be buying some expensive car, going out to expensive restaurants or buying some too big expensive home.

FrugalToque

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2016, 02:25:15 PM »
Q.  When will you start living it up?

A.  When I feel unhappy and, against all known logic and experimentation, start thinkging that spending money will somehow improve my happiness.

Toque.

Mr FrugalNL

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2016, 02:33:38 PM »
You ought to live it up - buy a Kia with a heater and FM radio!

It's things like this that caused the Roman empire's fall into decadence and ultimately collapse. Don't do it OP!

ketchup

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2016, 02:55:13 PM »
"I'm looking at Kia's on Craigslist"

I'm guessing a used Kia will get your butt from point A to point B as well as a BMW 7-Series.
The kia has the drawback that it has to stop for red lights and stop signs.
The Kia does come with turn signals standard though.

Hadilly

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2016, 09:57:06 PM »
TGS: Did no one else read your amazing reply? I adore your writing style - elegant, eloquent, and so, so witty.

A good reminder to watch the fuck alignments and maximize the swive surplus!

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2016, 10:36:40 PM »
TGS: Did no one else read your amazing reply? I adore your writing style - elegant, eloquent, and so, so witty.

A good reminder to watch the fuck alignments and maximize the swive surplus!

Meh, I think I overdid it with that one. Too preachy, and too obvious. It's what happens when I write while sober.

I particularly should not have used an entire month's supply of F-bombs just to remind people to keep their genitals away from the vacuum hose. For the rest of the month I'm going to have to either limit myself to cogent, reasoned persuasive arguments or restrict myself to euphemisms.

TheMoneyWizard

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2016, 08:21:29 AM »
It's probably my ego getting involved, but I feel like we should "get credit" for making lots of good choices.
Haha, never going to happen... Our society values the status symbols and one-upsmanship. Living the financially responsible live, you will get no credit for your good choices, that is until you pull the ultimate one-up and retire absurdly early. In which case, most people will assume you've been fired and can't find a job.

It's a bit of a lonely road. Embracing the secret wealth is key for sanity's sake.

vogon poetry

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2016, 08:32:49 AM »
And at the heart of mustachianism is doing things because we've made examined decisions, rather than because of what others think, and yet there's this desperate need for validation from the world anyway.  How is that really much different than someone buying a $60k car because he thinks it says something positive about him to the world at large?  If we are in it for the admiration of others, buying a fancy car or a McMansion or a $1900 espresso machine isn't really much different than biking to work and packing lunches.  Sure, it makes our bank balances look better, but the motivation is just as unhealthy.

TheGrimSqueaker is in with the following clinical diagnosis. Too many people have developed severe subluxation of the fornication. In layperson's words: our ducks might be in a row but our fucks are seriously out of alignment.

In order to save, you have to be able to prioritize, organize, say no to what's unnecessary, and acquire and maintain skills that other people think are worth paying you for. But there's another entire side to the lifestyle. In order to be happy as a Mustachian, or in life overall, it's vital to have your fucks in a row too. Caring about the right things is important, but it's just as important to avoid caring about the wrong things.

Consider for a moment Maslow's hierarchy of needs. This can serve as a template for where fucks should be directed and allocated. The base of the pyramid is the largest, and it represents where the majority of our fucks need to be directed: toward survival needs. Stuff like food and shelter, and the things you use to provide food and shelter for your family are on this tier. This means your job AND your 'stache belong on this bottom, fundamental tier. The job provides immediate resources for food and shelter, whereas the 'stache provides those resources in the long term. Building your 'stache, therefore, is just as important as putting food on your plate today.

Farther up the pyramid are the non-survival needs related to emotional and social development. These too receive an allocation of fucks. Family, spiritual development (for some), security, and other things that help make us human reside here. The higher up the pyramid you go, the less critical the "need" is. In fact, you pass through the "want" territory and start edging into "nice to have". At the top of the pyramid is an all-seeing eye world domination the sort of nice-to-have that we would like but never expect to completely attain. (Except for the world conquest and domination bit.)

What healthy human beings do is instinctively assign resources and attention (in other words, fucks) to the base of the pyramid first and then work their way up. When more than one option exists for satisfying a need, a frugal person selects the minimum necessary to do so and thereby obtains the biggest bang for the buck (and the best return on his or her fuck-investment). This conserves fucks and makes it possible to direct the swive surplus elsewhere, such as toward the 'stache for long-term payoff.

Another important thing to realize is that life sucks. I don't mean that it's bad. I mean that things in life to which you direct fucks draw them continually like an electrical load connected to a voltage source draws current. Send forth one fuck toward an issue, and you're basically directing not just one fuck but a stream of fucks that can lead to an ongoing commitment. This is a good thing, because whether your family gets to eat NEEDS to be an ongoing commitment. Some things, like the rent or the phone bill, suck only limited resources. Other things, like an active addiction (yours or somebody else's), suck down all available resources and then some. They're like a short circuit in your life.

People whose lives are short circuited due to incorrect fuck alignment eventually develop compassion fatigue. People who are scrambling to meet their basic needs after financially exhausting themselves for nice-to-haves eventually hit a wall and are incapable of giving a fuck. They get to the point where everything is a major nuisance and a major inconvenience. That waiter or desk clerk who acts as though serving you is a major pain in the ass? Overloaded and burned out. That person who's too emotionally out of shape to get a job? Likewise. They're paralyzed. Eventually they snap, and they do what it takes to make the drain on increasingly limited resources go away. They hit their kids. They divorce. They quit their jobs. They do inappropriate things with firearms. They abuse drugs, alcohol, or video games to escape from reality. They blame the unavailability of fucks, resources, and attention (correctly) on everything around them that sucks, without realizing that they're the ones who connected all the power sinks. They also instinctively follow and support people who tell them that more resources will be made available to meet their needs (having been taken from other people who are inappropriately withholding them), or that all the power sinks are the fault of a clearly identifiable enemy that can be made to go away. Result: political polarization.

The higher up the pyramid you go, the more fucks things tend to draw. Non-Mustachians practice a form of priority inversion: spending on nice-to-have items without first establishing financial security. This can lead to bankruptcy, loss of resources for legitimate need, or a cat food diet in one's old age. But there's another mistake that can wreck even a Mustachian, and that's to direct fucks toward anything where the need expands to consume all available resources and attention.

Fucks, like financial resources or electrical potential, are finite. You self-replenish to a point, but your rate of fuck renewal is limited. When you exhaust your supply or let the fucks wander off, you won't be able to summon up the drive or focus to go after anything more including the lower levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You just don't care: the battery is dead. This kind of exhaustion comes on very quickly and it takes a long time and lots of rest before people recover. Some call it burnout. Others call it compassion fatigue. But what it really is, is critical depletion of the fornication reserves. It's impossible to predict exactly when the collapse will occur, although there are entire fields of management devoted to trying. You can actually die from it: it leads to major depression and all the bad health that goes along with it. Fuck exhaustion also leads to extreme behavior wherein a person will do just about anything in order to make the drain go away.

Fuck misalignment, therefore, is a life or death issue. That's one of the reasons we give each other facepunches: it's like going to the chiropractor for a fuck realignment. It's also why it's vital to cut off the fuck supply to things that can and will draw infinite resources. Enabling behavior, like chasing the monkeys in someone else's circus, is one example. So is sticking your nose into other people's business, or caring about whether a person with radically different values from you is keen on how you're running your life. You'll notice that neither of those things appear anywhere in Maslow's pyramid. There's a reason for that.

I'd venture to say, in closing, that correct fuck alignment is the essence of Stoicism. It's also the essence of intelligent life management.
<3 this, you're the best!

TravelJunkyQC

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2016, 09:33:10 AM »
And at the heart of mustachianism is doing things because we've made examined decisions, rather than because of what others think, and yet there's this desperate need for validation from the world anyway.  How is that really much different than someone buying a $60k car because he thinks it says something positive about him to the world at large?  If we are in it for the admiration of others, buying a fancy car or a McMansion or a $1900 espresso machine isn't really much different than biking to work and packing lunches.  Sure, it makes our bank balances look better, but the motivation is just as unhealthy.

TheGrimSqueaker is in with the following clinical diagnosis. Too many people have developed severe subluxation of the fornication. In layperson's words: our ducks might be in a row but our fucks are seriously out of alignment.

In order to save, you have to be able to prioritize, organize, say no to what's unnecessary, and acquire and maintain skills that other people think are worth paying you for. But there's another entire side to the lifestyle. In order to be happy as a Mustachian, or in life overall, it's vital to have your fucks in a row too. Caring about the right things is important, but it's just as important to avoid caring about the wrong things.

Consider for a moment Maslow's hierarchy of needs. This can serve as a template for where fucks should be directed and allocated. The base of the pyramid is the largest, and it represents where the majority of our fucks need to be directed: toward survival needs. Stuff like food and shelter, and the things you use to provide food and shelter for your family are on this tier. This means your job AND your 'stache belong on this bottom, fundamental tier. The job provides immediate resources for food and shelter, whereas the 'stache provides those resources in the long term. Building your 'stache, therefore, is just as important as putting food on your plate today.

Farther up the pyramid are the non-survival needs related to emotional and social development. These too receive an allocation of fucks. Family, spiritual development (for some), security, and other things that help make us human reside here. The higher up the pyramid you go, the less critical the "need" is. In fact, you pass through the "want" territory and start edging into "nice to have". At the top of the pyramid is an all-seeing eye world domination the sort of nice-to-have that we would like but never expect to completely attain. (Except for the world conquest and domination bit.)

What healthy human beings do is instinctively assign resources and attention (in other words, fucks) to the base of the pyramid first and then work their way up. When more than one option exists for satisfying a need, a frugal person selects the minimum necessary to do so and thereby obtains the biggest bang for the buck (and the best return on his or her fuck-investment). This conserves fucks and makes it possible to direct the swive surplus elsewhere, such as toward the 'stache for long-term payoff.

Another important thing to realize is that life sucks. I don't mean that it's bad. I mean that things in life to which you direct fucks draw them continually like an electrical load connected to a voltage source draws current. Send forth one fuck toward an issue, and you're basically directing not just one fuck but a stream of fucks that can lead to an ongoing commitment. This is a good thing, because whether your family gets to eat NEEDS to be an ongoing commitment. Some things, like the rent or the phone bill, suck only limited resources. Other things, like an active addiction (yours or somebody else's), suck down all available resources and then some. They're like a short circuit in your life.

People whose lives are short circuited due to incorrect fuck alignment eventually develop compassion fatigue. People who are scrambling to meet their basic needs after financially exhausting themselves for nice-to-haves eventually hit a wall and are incapable of giving a fuck. They get to the point where everything is a major nuisance and a major inconvenience. That waiter or desk clerk who acts as though serving you is a major pain in the ass? Overloaded and burned out. That person who's too emotionally out of shape to get a job? Likewise. They're paralyzed. Eventually they snap, and they do what it takes to make the drain on increasingly limited resources go away. They hit their kids. They divorce. They quit their jobs. They do inappropriate things with firearms. They abuse drugs, alcohol, or video games to escape from reality. They blame the unavailability of fucks, resources, and attention (correctly) on everything around them that sucks, without realizing that they're the ones who connected all the power sinks. They also instinctively follow and support people who tell them that more resources will be made available to meet their needs (having been taken from other people who are inappropriately withholding them), or that all the power sinks are the fault of a clearly identifiable enemy that can be made to go away. Result: political polarization.

The higher up the pyramid you go, the more fucks things tend to draw. Non-Mustachians practice a form of priority inversion: spending on nice-to-have items without first establishing financial security. This can lead to bankruptcy, loss of resources for legitimate need, or a cat food diet in one's old age. But there's another mistake that can wreck even a Mustachian, and that's to direct fucks toward anything where the need expands to consume all available resources and attention.

Fucks, like financial resources or electrical potential, are finite. You self-replenish to a point, but your rate of fuck renewal is limited. When you exhaust your supply or let the fucks wander off, you won't be able to summon up the drive or focus to go after anything more including the lower levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You just don't care: the battery is dead. This kind of exhaustion comes on very quickly and it takes a long time and lots of rest before people recover. Some call it burnout. Others call it compassion fatigue. But what it really is, is critical depletion of the fornication reserves. It's impossible to predict exactly when the collapse will occur, although there are entire fields of management devoted to trying. You can actually die from it: it leads to major depression and all the bad health that goes along with it. Fuck exhaustion also leads to extreme behavior wherein a person will do just about anything in order to make the drain go away.

Fuck misalignment, therefore, is a life or death issue. That's one of the reasons we give each other facepunches: it's like going to the chiropractor for a fuck realignment. It's also why it's vital to cut off the fuck supply to things that can and will draw infinite resources. Enabling behavior, like chasing the monkeys in someone else's circus, is one example. So is sticking your nose into other people's business, or caring about whether a person with radically different values from you is keen on how you're running your life. You'll notice that neither of those things appear anywhere in Maslow's pyramid. There's a reason for that.

I'd venture to say, in closing, that correct fuck alignment is the essence of Stoicism. It's also the essence of intelligent life management.

*Wipes tear from corner of eye*
It's. So. Beautiful.

Slee_stack

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2016, 02:38:15 PM »
Travelling to climb in the alps or training to run a triathlon - nobody knows you're doing that.   This is self-fulfilling behaviour, not status seeking behaviour.

Maybe there are people who are really into travel and I don't know about it, but there are definitely people who like to impress others with how well-traveled or into fitness they are.
The fitness bragging is a particular peeve of mine.

If i judged the local population by the the number of '13.1', '26.2', or 'Tri' stickers on the cars around here, I'd guess that 60% of the folks here are world class athletes...or at least think they are.

Its remarkably bad.  Often times its multiple stickers!  Everyone MUST KNOW that you completed an event!  You can't just do it for the sake of doing it, everyone else must marvel at it!

It kind of reminds me of 'My child is student of the month' bumper stickers....except far worse.

Am I supposed to be impressed?  Or are you just advertising serious insecurity issues?

I'm quite in shape and have plenty of my own physical 'accomplishments'.  You will NEVER see me advertise any.

I actually like the # of 0.0 stickers that have popped up in ridicule.

ketchup

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2016, 03:19:42 PM »
Travelling to climb in the alps or training to run a triathlon - nobody knows you're doing that.   This is self-fulfilling behaviour, not status seeking behaviour.

Maybe there are people who are really into travel and I don't know about it, but there are definitely people who like to impress others with how well-traveled or into fitness they are.
The fitness bragging is a particular peeve of mine.

If i judged the local population by the the number of '13.1', '26.2', or 'Tri' stickers on the cars around here, I'd guess that 60% of the folks here are world class athletes...or at least think they are.

Its remarkably bad.  Often times its multiple stickers!  Everyone MUST KNOW that you completed an event!  You can't just do it for the sake of doing it, everyone else must marvel at it!

It kind of reminds me of 'My child is student of the month' bumper stickers....except far worse.

Am I supposed to be impressed?  Or are you just advertising serious insecurity issues?

I'm quite in shape and have plenty of my own physical 'accomplishments'.  You will NEVER see me advertise any.

I actually like the # of 0.0 stickers that have popped up in ridicule.
I pretty much hate every bumper sticker in existence (especially fitness or "my kid is so great" ones).  But a friend of mine (mildly-overweight bearded male, 28) has an extremely girly fitspo ice-skating decal on the back of his car (from the car's previous owner).  He thinks it's hilarious and refuses to remove it.  I support that.

marty998

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2016, 05:06:53 PM »
Travelling to climb in the alps or training to run a triathlon - nobody knows you're doing that.   This is self-fulfilling behaviour, not status seeking behaviour.

Maybe there are people who are really into travel and I don't know about it, but there are definitely people who like to impress others with how well-traveled or into fitness they are.
The fitness bragging is a particular peeve of mine.

If i judged the local population by the the number of '13.1', '26.2', or 'Tri' stickers on the cars around here, I'd guess that 60% of the folks here are world class athletes...or at least think they are.

Just get a black texta and write 'kms' on the end of the numbers... downplays the achievement somewhat...

(As a metricated munchkin it took me a few moments to work out what 13.1 and 26.2 actually referred to... Haven't seen a 21.1 or 42.2 sticker down here yet.)

StockBeard

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2016, 03:39:33 PM »
It's just the opposite for me. When people helpfully tell me that I should be spending more, I feel warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I am doing it right.
LOL, same here. The tiny devil pops up close to my head and makes me thinkg "see you in 10 years, sucker. I'll be enjoying my free life and you'll still be slaving at your job"

mm1970

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2016, 03:44:44 PM »
Quote
If i judged the local population by the the number of '13.1', '26.2', or 'Tri' stickers on the cars around here, I'd guess that 60% of the folks here are world class athletes...or at least think they are.

I dunno.  I don't have those stickers on my car (I have no stickers on my car) but...I trained and worked really hard for my first half marathon.  And my second.  I was very proud of that achievement.  It's especially something I value because of got injured shortly thereafter and can't really run anymore.

GreenEggs

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2016, 04:18:50 PM »
Tell him that you'd just as soon buy a gold tooth as you would a BMW.  (or compare it to whatever status symbol he'd relate to)

 

Bicycle_B

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2016, 07:42:01 PM »
I'm confused. Did you open your mouth and tell your friend that you ARE "living it up " in every way that is important to you?
Seems to me that should have been your immediate response.

Next thought is that friend knows he has fallen off MMM wagon and wants to make himself feel better by pulling you down too. Be strong. Caring little about what others think of your choices is part of the MMM holy grail.

That was my thought too. 

Also - if he's flip flopped, maybe he needs an example in his head to prove that people can resist being told these things.  He fell but you don't have to.  Anyway, congrats to you.

Gimesalot

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2016, 10:14:44 PM »
How about, "When it's 10:30 AM on a Monday morning and my ass is just getting out of bed while yours has been in a shitty low budget chair in your cubicle for at two hours."?

Too mean?

Kaspian

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2016, 11:34:30 PM »
Well, they sell $4 gourmet toast now in San Fransisco--why aren't you living it up?!  Still using your own machine or something?  Lame.  Get with the times.  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhPrWm-vKSY

ChairmanKaga

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2016, 10:46:28 AM »
People who express their perceived self-worth through ownership (or more likely PERCEIVED ownership) of a mass produced thing that depletes their wealth while providing a service that could be accomplished by their a $3500 2007 Kia Sephia, or their own two feet, is a total idiot. And I mean that in the kindest way possible.

Cars burn me up, these days. Most of us use these tools for less than an hour each day, yet spend on average  almost 1/5 of our net pay. And unless your job is located along the Stelvio Pass, the difference between a $75,000 Mercedes S-Class and a $10,000 used Honda Civic are negligible.

Know how I'd live it up? I'd get a GOOD mattress for my bed. I spend 7-8 hours a day laying on it, it should be nice to my back. No question. I'd also get a GOOD office desk chair for sitting and a GOOD standing desk for the rest of the time. I'd get one GOOD pair of shoes that fit my feet and conform to my abnormally high arches. I'd get a medically therapeutic deep tissue massage each week. Oh, and I'd retire from my job and work from the home that I own, no mortgage, when I needed to. That sounds nice.

And for the record, I'd keep my old Alfa Romeo that I've been fixing up for the past decade. That car is all mine. There's no other like it in the world. It's problems are unique. The ways I've fixed it are unique. That car is alive, as far as I'm concerned.

Seppia

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2016, 04:15:03 AM »
Stelvio, Alfa Romeo... Are you a fellow Italian CharimanKaga?

My close friends don't ever give me these kinds of comments, mostly because they are reasonably frugal.

Other people I know more superficially don't either, but I guess it's because I have a few typical "status symbol items" (iPhone, Audi car) that are provided to me for free as work benefits, so I fly under the radar.

clarkfan1979

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2016, 06:41:29 PM »
I would just say that you prefer to spend your money on travel and not cars. That is what I say and it goes pretty well.

Metric Mouse

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2016, 09:59:57 AM »
Travelling to climb in the alps or training to run a triathlon - nobody knows you're doing that.   This is self-fulfilling behaviour, not status seeking behaviour.

Maybe there are people who are really into travel and I don't know about it, but there are definitely people who like to impress others with how well-traveled or into fitness they are.

Haha. Have you met some of those crossfitters?

scottish

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2016, 09:41:06 AM »
Nnnoooo, I haven't met crossfitters who view their fitness as a status symbol.    I can imagine them though.   And there is a guy at work with a "Tri and keep up" bumper sticker.


MgoSam

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Re: When are you guys going to start living it up?
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2016, 09:24:55 AM »


Know how I'd live it up? I'd get a GOOD mattress for my bed. I spend 7-8 hours a day laying on it, it should be nice to my back. No question. I'd also get a GOOD office desk chair for sitting and a GOOD standing desk for the rest of the time. I'd get one GOOD pair of shoes that fit my feet and conform to my abnormally high arches. I'd get a medically therapeutic deep tissue massage each week. Oh, and I'd retire from my job and work from the home that I own, no mortgage, when I needed to. That sounds nice.


Yup I agree. I have a perfectly good mattress, but once it kicks the bed I'm going to buy a very good mattress.

I have a makeshift standing desk that I love, I would like to someday get a treadmill workstation. I don't think it'll be all that expensive as there are likely countless used treadmills available online, but I haven't fully looked into it.