Author Topic: What happens to these people?  (Read 32730 times)

PDXTabs

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2020, 10:42:34 PM »
How to they compare to benefits in the US?

US benefits are all over the place. At your full retirement age social security benefits vary from $41.90 USD/mo to $3,113/mo depending on how many years you worked and how much you made. More or less if you take the benefits before or after your "full" retirement age.

On top of that there are low income housing and food assistance programs if you are on the low end of that spectrum.

By the River

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2020, 07:06:30 AM »
How to they compare to benefits in the US?

US benefits are all over the place. At your full retirement age social security benefits vary from $41.90 USD/mo to $3,113/mo depending on how many years you worked and how much you made. More or less if you take the benefits before or after your "full" retirement age.

On top of that there are low income housing and food assistance programs if you are on the low end of that spectrum.

The $41.90 is for someone who worked ten years at minimum wage jobs so the actual minimum is $0 for someone who didn't work ten years (I assume this is mostly people who worked cash jobs and never reported income.)  If someone worked 30 years of minimum wage jobs, their minimum payment would be $870/month. 

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2020, 07:15:35 AM »
The poverty level for a person over 65 is less than $1000 per month. For two seniors it is less than $1300 per month. Here in Florida there are many many trailer parks 55+.
Others live in subsidized housing, rely on food stamps and so on. They rely on food banks or family help. I cannot imagine you are at the top of the life expectancy charts in this situation.

I agree the future is bleak for these individuals. Especially since the politicians are talking about fiddling with social security.  But we also know many people who continue to spend spend spend and have no retirement plans until they drop or get disability. They just can't see it like most people here can. And some people are just going to be victims of their own poor habits.

My grandparents retired to a Florida trailer park. It was a pretty sad situation. But then again, a lot of people in my life have ended up that way. I'm one of the fortunate ones who found another way to live. We need to remember that information like this was hard to come by until about 10-15 years ago.

RetiredAt63

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2020, 08:41:08 AM »
In Canada you can get up to $2700/month  in government benefits when you hit 70.   You get a bit less if you start younger.    (I think I have the right details below)

There's the Canada pension plan with mandatory contributions by employees and employers.   That maxes out at $1175/month if you work to 70 and make the max contributions (contributions are set by your employment income every year, the max is capped at a bit under 60K per year in income).
There's old age security.   As long as you're making less than about $80K, you can get up to $613/month.
Then there's the "guaranteed income supplement".   If you're really low income, a you can receive up to $913/month.

This is in CAD which are worth about 75% of USD.    How do they compare to benefits in the US?

And of course if someone is actually planning ahead they can contribute to an RRSP and a TFSA.

PDXTabs

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2020, 03:20:38 PM »
How to they compare to benefits in the US?

US benefits are all over the place. At your full retirement age social security benefits vary from $41.90 USD/mo to $3,113/mo depending on how many years you worked and how much you made. More or less if you take the benefits before or after your "full" retirement age.

On top of that there are low income housing and food assistance programs if you are on the low end of that spectrum.

The $41.90 is for someone who worked ten years at minimum wage jobs so the actual minimum is $0 for someone who didn't work ten years (I assume this is mostly people who worked cash jobs and never reported income.)

Yes, by contrast in Canada you could get an Old Age Security pension and the Guaranteed Income Supplement without working a day in your life.

EDITed to add - but in the USA you might be able to get some SSI.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 03:27:03 PM by PDXTabs »

Michael in ABQ

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2020, 04:10:11 PM »
Reading this thread makes me glad my parents were reasonably good with their money. They just paid off their house (purchased in 1976 for $32k but with some refinancing and HELOCs over the years) so they're sitting on $300-350k of equity. When my mom retired about a decade ago they had about $200k saved up plus SS for both of them and medical coverage as part of my mom's retirement on top of Medicare. It was invested with Edward Jones but I think they still have a fair amount of it left. They're still able to travel and my dad still has a couple of his "toys" aka a couple of old cars he spent years restoring. Unfortunately his health has started to deteriorate recently and he can't drive them anymore. One of them is probably worth at least $60k so regardless of what happens in the next decade or two they should be ok money-wise. However I live 1,000 miles away and my brother and sister are less than a mile away so ultimately I will probably not be the one intimately involved in helping them out as they age.

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2020, 06:21:12 PM »
The poverty level for a person over 65 is less than $1000 per month. For two seniors it is less than $1300 per month. Here in Florida there are many many trailer parks 55+.
Others live in subsidized housing, rely on food stamps and so on. They rely on food banks or family help. I cannot imagine you are at the top of the life expectancy charts in this situation.

I agree the future is bleak for these individuals. Especially since the politicians are talking about fiddling with social security.  But we also know many people who continue to spend spend spend and have no retirement plans until they drop or get disability. They just can't see it like most people here can. And some people are just going to be victims of their own poor habits.

My grandparents retired to a Florida trailer park. It was a pretty sad situation. But then again, a lot of people in my life have ended up that way. I'm one of the fortunate ones who found another way to live. We need to remember that information like this was hard to come by until about 10-15 years ago.

My aunt and uncle just had their trailer condemned because it was in such sad shape. That's pretty hard to do in a southern state.

sherr

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2020, 08:33:24 AM »
so the actual minimum is $0 for someone who didn't work ten years (I assume this is mostly people who worked cash jobs and never reported income.)

Or people who work SS-tax-exempt jobs their whole lives, like pastors/religious organization affiliates.

PDXTabs

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2020, 09:27:22 AM »
so the actual minimum is $0 for someone who didn't work ten years (I assume this is mostly people who worked cash jobs and never reported income.)

Or people who work SS-tax-exempt jobs their whole lives, like pastors/religious organization affiliates.

And some teachers! It's actually possible to work for 35 years and get $0 in pension as a teacher. You accomplish this by changing districts before your pension vests.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 09:44:46 AM by PDXTabs »

Just Joe

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2020, 09:29:24 AM »
The poverty level for a person over 65 is less than $1000 per month. For two seniors it is less than $1300 per month. Here in Florida there are many many trailer parks 55+.
Others live in subsidized housing, rely on food stamps and so on. They rely on food banks or family help. I cannot imagine you are at the top of the life expectancy charts in this situation.

I agree the future is bleak for these individuals. Especially since the politicians are talking about fiddling with social security.  But we also know many people who continue to spend spend spend and have no retirement plans until they drop or get disability. They just can't see it like most people here can. And some people are just going to be victims of their own poor habits.

My grandparents retired to a Florida trailer park. It was a pretty sad situation. But then again, a lot of people in my life have ended up that way. I'm one of the fortunate ones who found another way to live. We need to remember that information like this was hard to come by until about 10-15 years ago.

My aunt and uncle just had their trailer condemned because it was in such sad shape. That's pretty hard to do in a southern state.

Did the roof collapse or something? Yeah, trailers can get pretty bad before a southern gov't gets involved.

Cassie

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2020, 10:47:11 AM »
Spartana, yes there are people who did things right and still end up in dire straits through no fault of their own.  It’s sad to be both old and poor.

Catbert

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2020, 11:43:45 AM »
Some of these posts are very sad. It is too bad that your FIL did not know how to put her in a nursing home & have Medicaid pay for most of it. There is a way in every state & not impoverish the other spouse but often people don't know where to find the answer. The center for aging (either a state or county agency depending on your state) can tell you how to do this.

Back in the day, my mom (who worked in a nursing home) made me promise that if/when she ended up in a nursing home that I'd bring her a carton of cigarettes every week.  Sadly, she died younger and quicker than that.

Yeah I don't know all the details, most of what I know about the health situation was heard third or fourth hand. There was a lot of back and forth about what they could get Medicare to cover.

I do know that there was a lot of self-inflicted guilt involved. Both of my in-laws mothers had cared for their husbands in their final years. My FIL's father had been placed in a nursing home after a stroke, and according to the stories his mother would go to the home EVERY SINGLE DAY, and spend the entire day there "caring" for him (not sure exactly what that means, but it sounds like it involved bossing the staff around a lot). Everyone in the family celebrates the level of love and dedication it showed. I mean, its one of the things regularly discussed and relived at EVERY family gathering. So even for the 2 months my MIL was in the home, FIL was over there all the time with her, that just seems like what they all think you're supposed to do.

I've told my hubby if I ever end up in a nursing home, he better keep living his damn life.

I have told DH the same thing, he needs to visit me occasionally in the nursing home. But he may not make that a fetish.

 Back decades ago I knew someone who spent every. Single. Day. All the day. With his Alzheimer's impaired wife in the nursing home. Insanity. But it provided me a worthwhile life lesson.

ChpBstrd

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2020, 01:43:51 PM »
It may depend on the generation.

My baby boomer parents got married with high school educations. Dad got a job as a union apprentice working construction in the early 70's (Back then one was paid to get career training instead of paying to get career training). He worked the rest of his career as a journeyman in his field, bought a middle-class house, paid it off, etc. Mom was a SAHM.

This was enough to live a working-class life (e.g. for a long time his multi-color pickup truck had no hood) but they did not save much. Restaurant meals were/are at least 2x per week. The daily driver car always had a V8 engine. They sent us kids to private school until we begged to get out. They went on unnecessary shopping trips, hit yard sales and auctions, put enormous miles on their cars as entertainment, and developed a mild case of junk hoarding. For them, money was for spending, mostly on instant gratification.

They retired several years ago in their mid-60s with about $100k in savings, social security, a paid-off house, and - most importantly - a $50,000/year pension from the union that he had been forced to pay into all his career. The pension is no longer available to young people of course, and I'm not sure if there are any good union apprenticeship opportunities any more.

So even though they saved very little over the course of 35 years, and blew through paychecks as if money was radioactive, they still retired prosperous as millionaires because they lived in times when unions and pensions and social security were a thing. The external world took care of them in a way they could never have done for themselves.

Had things been a little different (e.g. there were no union jobs, or the pension closed a couple decades earlier) I'm sure my childhood would have been spent in poverty and my parents would now be living in the woods in a dilapidated trailer, as this is the norm for broke old people and jobless spendthrifts in my area.

The point of all this is that if a young person learned from my parents how to live, spend, and plan for retirement, they would definitely fail because the combination of factors that led to my parents' success, despite themselves, are no longer in place. The union jobs that pay enough to support a whole family on one salary, AND buy a house, are a thing of the past. Pensions are a thing of the past. Some would like Social Security to be a thing of the past. If you spend like my parents AND lack these features of financial antiquity, you're broke. It depends on the timeframe when you lived.

And yes, my parents are among those in their generation who voted for the people who passed anti-union legislation, destroyed pensions, tried to repeal the ACA which is where they get their health insurance, and are trying to cut social security. Guess they shut the door behind them.

PDXTabs

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2020, 01:59:26 PM »
Yup, my grandfather with an eight grade education had a similar story, except that he was good at saving.

There are still some union apprenticeships floating around, but not for steel mill workers with defined benefit pension plans.

RetiredAt63

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2020, 03:01:24 PM »
It may depend on the generation.

My baby boomer parents got married with high school educations. Dad got a job as a union apprentice working construction in the early 70's (Back then one was paid to get career training instead of paying to get career training). He worked the rest of his career as a journeyman in his field, bought a middle-class house, paid it off, etc. Mom was a SAHM.

This was enough to live a working-class life (e.g. for a long time his multi-color pickup truck had no hood) but they did not save much. Restaurant meals were/are at least 2x per week. The daily driver car always had a V8 engine. They sent us kids to private school until we begged to get out. They went on unnecessary shopping trips, hit yard sales and auctions, put enormous miles on their cars as entertainment, and developed a mild case of junk hoarding. For them, money was for spending, mostly on instant gratification.

They retired several years ago in their mid-60s with about $100k in savings, social security, a paid-off house, and - most importantly - a $50,000/year pension from the union that he had been forced to pay into all his career. The pension is no longer available to young people of course, and I'm not sure if there are any good union apprenticeship opportunities any more.

So even though they saved very little over the course of 35 years, and blew through paychecks as if money was radioactive, they still retired prosperous as millionaires because they lived in times when unions and pensions and social security were a thing. The external world took care of them in a way they could never have done for themselves.

Had things been a little different (e.g. there were no union jobs, or the pension closed a couple decades earlier) I'm sure my childhood would have been spent in poverty and my parents would now be living in the woods in a dilapidated trailer, as this is the norm for broke old people and jobless spendthrifts in my area.

The point of all this is that if a young person learned from my parents how to live, spend, and plan for retirement, they would definitely fail because the combination of factors that led to my parents' success, despite themselves, are no longer in place. The union jobs that pay enough to support a whole family on one salary, AND buy a house, are a thing of the past. Pensions are a thing of the past. Some would like Social Security to be a thing of the past. If you spend like my parents AND lack these features of financial antiquity, you're broke. It depends on the timeframe when you lived.

And yes, my parents are among those in their generation who voted for the people who passed anti-union legislation, destroyed pensions, tried to repeal the ACA which is where they get their health insurance, and are trying to cut social security. Guess they shut the door behind them.

I'm a baby boomer and never lived that extravagant lifestyle.  I thought buying a pre-cooked chicken at the grocery store was spendy.  Maybe years of being a poor broke university/grad school student prepared me for mustachianism.  Not to mention parents who were teens in the depression, they didn't live like that either. 

Just Joe

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2020, 03:06:55 PM »
And yes, my parents are among those in their generation who voted for the people who passed anti-union legislation, destroyed pensions, tried to repeal the ACA which is where they get their health insurance, and are trying to cut social security. Guess they shut the door behind them.

And where would our country be without any social programs at all? I guess a generation would be in for a major surprise as they retired to abject poverty. The following generations might be smarter. There might be a desperate demographic willing to do anything to feed themselves. Prob would become employees who didn't need safety equipment or reasonable work conditions.

sherr

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2020, 03:27:37 PM »
And yes, my parents are among those in their generation who voted for the people who passed anti-union legislation, destroyed pensions, tried to repeal the ACA which is where they get their health insurance, and are trying to cut social security. Guess they shut the door behind them.

And where would our country be without any social programs at all? I guess a generation would be in for a major surprise as they retired to abject poverty. The following generations might be smarter. There might be a desperate demographic willing to do anything to feed themselves. Prob would become employees who didn't need safety equipment or reasonable work conditions.

Note that the safety-net programs were instituted in response to how horrible things were before. Give The Grapes of Wrath a read sometime. People think of "abject poverty" today in terms of "not being able to afford very much", not in terms of "literally watching your children starve to death in front of you and being powerless to do anything about it".

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2020, 04:38:44 PM »
And yes, my parents are among those in their generation who voted for the people who passed anti-union legislation, destroyed pensions, tried to repeal the ACA which is where they get their health insurance, and are trying to cut social security. Guess they shut the door behind them.

The "I got mine, so fuck you" phenomenon is not really limited to any given generation. It's been occurring throughout history.

People never seem to want their children or grandchildren to benefit from the opportunities or resources that were made available to them. They create elaborate fantasies about how they did everything themselves or pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, and they try to destroy the means by which they themselves were able to rise, so that nobody else can benefit. It's like climbing the ladder that someone else left against the wall, and then kicking the ladder away for fear that somebody else might rise to the same level.

The behavior begins when people start to cut *other people's* benefits and opportunities, things they do not need themselves. A shining example is the way the author of "Lean In", a book that urged female people to give more, more, more to their employers in a quest for advancement, got rid of day care support at the company she managed. She herself had risen to a rank where she could afford to hire out her own child care, therefore she found it right and appropriate to get rid of a resource that empowered other people to take her advice and to lean in.

Once people have the thrill of getting rid of a benefit they themselves don't need or want, they notice it has no impact on their own lives and in fact it makes their position more secure because it creates a bigger barrier to entry. Then they start closing the doors that were open to them. They require higher levels of education and credentials (all pre-purchased at great personal cost to the student) for entry-level jobs that were available to them with only a high school diploma (or even without one). They cut education and employee development programs, and they require the people who work for them to have much higher grade point averages than they do. It's an instinctive behavior whereby the people who have privilege keep it and do their best to make sure large numbers of others don't. They don't really understand how destructive the trend is until it's directed against them. Then they whine about how they're victims.

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2020, 07:20:53 PM »
And yes, my parents are among those in their generation who voted for the people who passed anti-union legislation, destroyed pensions, tried to repeal the ACA which is where they get their health insurance, and are trying to cut social security. Guess they shut the door behind them.

And where would our country be without any social programs at all? I guess a generation would be in for a major surprise as they retired to abject poverty. The following generations might be smarter. There might be a desperate demographic willing to do anything to feed themselves. Prob would become employees who didn't need safety equipment or reasonable work conditions.

Note that the safety-net programs were instituted in response to how horrible things were before. Give The Grapes of Wrath a read sometime. People think of "abject poverty" today in terms of "not being able to afford very much", not in terms of "literally watching your children starve to death in front of you and being powerless to do anything about it".

An excellent book that explains about the America that really existed instead of the rosy view taught in K-12 history classes.  An excellent read and eye-opening about why things are the way they are.

https://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-United-States/dp/0062397346/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=peoples+history+of+america&qid=1605752352&s=books&sr=1-2

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2020, 12:29:18 AM »
... blew through paychecks as if money was radioactive...

This is a wonderful phrase.

habanero

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2020, 05:12:15 AM »
Once people have the thrill of getting rid of a benefit they themselves don't need or want, they notice it has no impact on their own lives and in fact it makes their position more secure because it creates a bigger barrier to entry. Then they start closing the doors that were open to them. They require higher levels of education and credentials (all pre-purchased at great personal cost to the student) for entry-level jobs that were available to them with only a high school diploma (or even without one). They cut education and employee development programs, and they require the people who work for them to have much higher grade point averages than they do. It's an instinctive behavior whereby the people who have privilege keep it and do their best to make sure large numbers of others don't. They don't really understand how destructive the trend is until it's directed against them. Then they whine about how they're victims.

Many years ago an economist here wrote an op-ed on direct child support wich has been somewhat controversial. Ever parent get a sum per month pr kid regardless of how much they make, and obviously a lot of parents have zero need for it, while it makes a huge difference for some on a tight budget on the low end of the income scale.

On the surface, you could spend the same amount of money more targeted, and reach a higher utility given the diminishing marginal value of money. His point was, however that over time, public support for something that doesn't benefit everyone, regardless of need, is likely to slowly erode away and and then the benefits will be cut and then they disappear. According to the dude this phenomenon is well known and was, in his opinion the strongest argument for why you should keep such benefits universal. Free education is the most obvious example, subsidized day care another.

On a side note, US is apparently the only place in the western world where kids have to expect a lower standard of living than those born two generations earlier.

ChpBstrd

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2020, 07:54:05 AM »
People never seem to want their children or grandchildren to benefit from the opportunities or resources that were made available to them. They create elaborate fantasies about how they did everything themselves or pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, and they try to destroy the means by which they themselves were able to rise, so that nobody else can benefit. It's like climbing the ladder that someone else left against the wall, and then kicking the ladder away for fear that somebody else might rise to the same level.

Great post @TheGrimSqueaker. This behavior is certainly widespread, and resembles dictatorial politics. Who knows how much wealth and GDP growth has been squandered by this dynamic in tens of thousands of corporations?

What fascinates me though, is that people aren't coldly calculating about how they will oppress the next generation to hold onto power longer. Instead, they come to truly and sincerely believe that they deserve and are entitled to what they "earned" in the distant past, and they suppress the memories of all the programs, social infrastructure, and luck that got them where they are today. A heroic autobiography is crafted to erase the influence of things like the GI bill, unions, pensions, public education, family sacrifices, scholarships, state support for higher ed, ethnic privilege, gender privilege, progressive taxation, and even the ability to draft dodge as contributors to one's success.

It is the perfect parallel to the stories told by unsuccessful people who have an external explanation for everything that happened.

How many of us investors will one day talk about how we earned our whole portfolio through hard work, our success was inevitable, and how things like a strong dollar or market regulations to protect retail investors are unnecessary? Such mental gymnastics to avoid feelings of gratitude and generosity.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2020, 01:15:14 PM »
How many of us investors will one day talk about how we earned our whole portfolio through hard work, our success was inevitable, and how things like a strong dollar or market regulations to protect retail investors are unnecessary? Such mental gymnastics to avoid feelings of gratitude and generosity.

If any of us ever gets paid to talk about frugality, strategic investment, and early retirement, we had *better* emphasize the bootstraps myth because otherwise our audience won't pay to hear it.

Humility is not marketable.

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2020, 02:29:54 PM »
And yes, my parents are among those in their generation who voted for the people who passed anti-union legislation, destroyed pensions, tried to repeal the ACA which is where they get their health insurance, and are trying to cut social security. Guess they shut the door behind them.

The "I got mine, so fuck you" phenomenon is not really limited to any given generation. It's been occurring throughout history.

People never seem to want their children or grandchildren to benefit from the opportunities or resources that were made available to them. They create elaborate fantasies about how they did everything themselves or pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, and they try to destroy the means by which they themselves were able to rise, so that nobody else can benefit. It's like climbing the ladder that someone else left against the wall, and then kicking the ladder away for fear that somebody else might rise to the same level.

The behavior begins when people start to cut *other people's* benefits and opportunities, things they do not need themselves. A shining example is the way the author of "Lean In", a book that urged female people to give more, more, more to their employers in a quest for advancement, got rid of day care support at the company she managed. She herself had risen to a rank where she could afford to hire out her own child care, therefore she found it right and appropriate to get rid of a resource that empowered other people to take her advice and to lean in.

Once people have the thrill of getting rid of a benefit they themselves don't need or want, they notice it has no impact on their own lives and in fact it makes their position more secure because it creates a bigger barrier to entry. Then they start closing the doors that were open to them. They require higher levels of education and credentials (all pre-purchased at great personal cost to the student) for entry-level jobs that were available to them with only a high school diploma (or even without one). They cut education and employee development programs, and they require the people who work for them to have much higher grade point averages than they do. It's an instinctive behavior whereby the people who have privilege keep it and do their best to make sure large numbers of others don't. They don't really understand how destructive the trend is until it's directed against them. Then they whine about how they're victims.
This is very well written.

DaMa

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2020, 04:13:03 PM »
And yes, my parents are among those in their generation who voted for the people who passed anti-union legislation, destroyed pensions, tried to repeal the ACA which is where they get their health insurance, and are trying to cut social security. Guess they shut the door behind them.

The "I got mine, so fuck you" phenomenon is not really limited to any given generation. It's been occurring throughout history.

People never seem to want their children or grandchildren to benefit from the opportunities or resources that were made available to them. They create elaborate fantasies about how they did everything themselves or pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, and they try to destroy the means by which they themselves were able to rise, so that nobody else can benefit. It's like climbing the ladder that someone else left against the wall, and then kicking the ladder away for fear that somebody else might rise to the same level.

The behavior begins when people start to cut *other people's* benefits and opportunities, things they do not need themselves. A shining example is the way the author of "Lean In", a book that urged female people to give more, more, more to their employers in a quest for advancement, got rid of day care support at the company she managed. She herself had risen to a rank where she could afford to hire out her own child care, therefore she found it right and appropriate to get rid of a resource that empowered other people to take her advice and to lean in.

Once people have the thrill of getting rid of a benefit they themselves don't need or want, they notice it has no impact on their own lives and in fact it makes their position more secure because it creates a bigger barrier to entry. Then they start closing the doors that were open to them. They require higher levels of education and credentials (all pre-purchased at great personal cost to the student) for entry-level jobs that were available to them with only a high school diploma (or even without one). They cut education and employee development programs, and they require the people who work for them to have much higher grade point averages than they do. It's an instinctive behavior whereby the people who have privilege keep it and do their best to make sure large numbers of others don't. They don't really understand how destructive the trend is until it's directed against them. Then they whine about how they're victims.

This is exactly what I think about my outspoken uncle and cannot articulate.  Thank you!

alienbogey

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #75 on: December 25, 2020, 06:15:29 PM »

People never seem to want their children or grandchildren to benefit from the opportunities or resources that were made available to them. They create elaborate fantasies about how they did everything themselves or pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, and they try to destroy the means by which they themselves were able to rise, so that nobody else can benefit. It's like climbing the ladder that someone else left against the wall, and then kicking the ladder away for fear that somebody else might rise to the same level.


I don't have the time to give reasons, much less have a back and forth discussion, but I do wish to register the fact that I disagree with every sentence of the quoted paragraph.

Sibley

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #76 on: December 25, 2020, 07:58:46 PM »

People never seem to want their children or grandchildren to benefit from the opportunities or resources that were made available to them. They create elaborate fantasies about how they did everything themselves or pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, and they try to destroy the means by which they themselves were able to rise, so that nobody else can benefit. It's like climbing the ladder that someone else left against the wall, and then kicking the ladder away for fear that somebody else might rise to the same level.


I don't have the time to give reasons, much less have a back and forth discussion, but I do wish to register the fact that I disagree with every sentence of the quoted paragraph.

Well, now that you've posted that, you need to come back and more fully explain why you disagree, as well as put forth an alternative explanation. Otherwise, I assume you're just posting so you can get to the 100 posts required to post in off topic.

marty998

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #77 on: December 26, 2020, 12:02:10 AM »
People never seem to want their children or grandchildren to benefit from the opportunities or resources that were made available to them. They create elaborate fantasies about how they did everything themselves or pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, and they try to destroy the means by which they themselves were able to rise, so that nobody else can benefit. It's like climbing the ladder that someone else left against the wall, and then kicking the ladder away for fear that somebody else might rise to the same level.


I don't have the time to give reasons, much less have a back and forth discussion, but I do wish to register the fact that I disagree with every sentence of the quoted paragraph.

Well, now that you've posted that, you need to come back and more fully explain why you disagree, as well as put forth an alternative explanation. Otherwise, I assume you're just posting so you can get to the 100 posts required to post in off topic.

Just attributing the quotes to the right people... (@Sibley I'm def not trying to get to 100 :) )

But I too would like to know the reason for disagreement. Perhaps people just want the benefits for their own children and not the rest of the next generation cohort?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 12:04:20 AM by marty998 »

bill1827

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #78 on: December 27, 2020, 02:03:28 AM »
Maybe because it's a sweeping generalisation that doesn't actually apply to many people.

I know that the right wing press love to generate antipathy to anyone who receives state benefits but people don't generally wish others to be deprived, nor do they create elaborate fantasies about their past. A few do, maybe, but most people don't.

SwordGuy

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #79 on: December 27, 2020, 07:28:30 AM »
Maybe because it's a sweeping generalisation that doesn't actually apply to many people.

I know that the right wing press love to generate antipathy to anyone who receives state benefits but people don't generally wish others to be deprived, .... A few do, maybe, but most people don't.

Start a thread that expresses the idea that all people who work for a living people should actually be paid wages that are high enough that they won't be living in poverty -- and see how many people on this site come out of the woodwork to fight against it.   

Then decide whether you've changed your mind on your statement.

Sibley

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #80 on: December 27, 2020, 08:37:08 AM »
Maybe because it's a sweeping generalisation that doesn't actually apply to many people.

I know that the right wing press love to generate antipathy to anyone who receives state benefits but people don't generally wish others to be deprived, .... A few do, maybe, but most people don't.

Start a thread that expresses the idea that all people who work for a living people should actually be paid wages that are high enough that they won't be living in poverty -- and see how many people on this site come out of the woodwork to fight against it.   

Then decide whether you've changed your mind on your statement.

Yep. In general, I've found those who post on this site to be educated and intelligent, and yet there are still many who seem to sincerely believe that some people don't deserve to be paid fairly, to have adequate shelter, clothing, food, and medical care. It's an empathy issue.

SpinWave0704

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #81 on: December 27, 2020, 11:32:09 AM »
Maybe because it's a sweeping generalisation that doesn't actually apply to many people.

I know that the right wing press love to generate antipathy to anyone who receives state benefits but people don't generally wish others to be deprived, .... A few do, maybe, but most people don't.

Start a thread that expresses the idea that all people who work for a living people should actually be paid wages that are high enough that they won't be living in poverty -- and see how many people on this site come out of the woodwork to fight against it.   

Then decide whether you've changed your mind on your statement.

Yep. In general, I've found those who post on this site to be educated and intelligent, and yet there are still many who seem to sincerely believe that some people don't deserve to be paid fairly, to have adequate shelter, clothing, food, and medical care. It's an empathy issue.


I've been thinking about similar topics recently (with no real conclusions yet). To me, the underlying question: How much do we control our destiny? What part of our lives, including our financial lives, are in our control, especially for low-income household?

Some recurring themes that I'm trying to understand better:

1. How do we define poverty? By assets, income, or spending?
people should actually be paid wages that are high enough that they won't be living in poverty
The Wages/Income vs. Spending debate typical devolves into the media tropes, including poor people smoking and eating fast food instead of PB&Js, or millennials with student debt eating avocado toast.
Instead, imo, a better metric is: Is it possible for people live a frugal yet decent life with a low income in a given city, after accounting for Housing, Food, Transportation, Healthcare, Childcare?
  • Housing that is safe: including heating/cooling/insulated, no pests/mold, etc. Size is not a disqualifying factor, including trailers, room shares, etc.
  • Food costs that are healthy-ish: rice and beans, PB&Js, fruits and vegetables, access to a stove.
  • Transportation: Can you get to schools without a car? What is the distance between low-cost housing and job centres, including low-wage jobs such as retail, food industry, etc? Is walking, bicycling, or public transportation an option?
  • Healthcare:<I'm not well-informed enough speak to healthcare costs, so I'm leaving this as a placeholder.>
    Suffice to say, healthcare costs in the US vary a LOT:
    • from very low costs (due to government assistance, healthy habits, good genes, etc),
    • up to staggering costs for unlucky folks.
  • Childcare: <I'm not well-informed enough speak to childcare costs.>
    There's a whole 'nother debate about having kids in the first place. Imo, people categorize other people's kids in two ways:
    • Category 1: Kids are optional (and very expensive) life choices: i.e; if you can't afford a kid (or multiple kids), then don't have kids. Furthermore, kid-related expenses are the responsibility of the parents. OR,
    • Category 2: Kids are mini people and are citizens deserving of our society's care and attention: i.e; they deserve housing, food, schools, etc. that are better than they are currently receiving; regardless of their parents' ability to provide for these basics.
    How you view kids (Category 1 vs. Category 2) probably determines how you view child care expenses.
  • Items not included: video games, brand name clothes, cigarettes, beer, fast food. Amongst people with low incomes, what percentage of their income is spent on items that we (the collective readers in this MMM forum) would consider as wasteful?

2. The mental and physical stress of being poor
  • How stress impacts people's lives, especially for kids. Literally, it's labeled as "toxic" stress in this article: https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2018/07/411161/disrupting-toxic-stress-children-prevent-long-term-health-impacts
  • How insecurity (job insecurity, housing insecurity, food insecurity) plays a huge role in the ability to get a new job, to change a person's circumstances, to move to a LCOL area, etc.
  • How stress impacts rational decisioning. After the constant burden of long hours at a physically taxing job, people struggle to make better choices than they would have made, if they were at a lower stress level.

If this sounds like I'm judging or looking down on people who are struggling financially, I am not. I'm trying to understand what would it take for people to raise their quality of life: higher wages (or raising the minimum wage), education, better money management, a stronger safety net, etc.

I understand that these are not either-or questions; but rather, how much do these societal environments vs. personal choices play a role in our lives.
It's an empathy issue.
I definitely agree that there's an empathy issue as well.

Related reading: Evicted, Nickel and Dimed, Scratch Beginnings (a rebuttal to Nickel and Dimed), Glass Castle, Hillbilly Elegy.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 08:39:58 PM by SpinWave0704 »

Abe

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #82 on: December 27, 2020, 12:03:12 PM »
Based on where I grow up and experience in medicine - they live in dilapidated houses, occasionally get some food from their church, Meals on Wheels, or neighbors (or sometimes the children, if they are employed and have food to spare after feeding the grand-kids). They take the bare minimum medications to treat their chronic medical conditions. Ultimately the car breaks down, the roof leaks, they water gets shut off, or some other issue arises and they stop taking the medications to have enough money to resolve said issue. Eventually they end up in the hospital with heart failure, stroke or some other medical crisis. That gets temporized, then they either 1) go back home and repeat the cycle until they die or 2) are too infirm to go home, so get sent to a Medicaid-funded nursing home until they die. Option 2 delays death by a few years on average, but if they have dementia it probably hastens it. If no one claims them, their remains are cremated and placed in the county burial plot.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 12:05:18 PM by Abe »

marty998

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #83 on: December 27, 2020, 12:48:52 PM »
Snip

Oooh good post. And yes wholeheartedly agree on the lack of empathy anytime the minimum wage is brought up. I hear a lot of economic arguments about why the minimum wage (especially in the US).

But I do suggest that it’s a lack of assets and savings that keep people poor, and income is a secondary factor. Feeds into the notion of toxic stress you mentioned. If you have savings, you’re not one pay check away from ruin. If you have a house sans mortgage, you can generally be confident you’ll forever have a roof over your head if you lose your job.

That counts for a lot, and yes does allow for some better quality decision making and better quality purchases, purely because of the extra opportunities afforded. We all know that, because all of us on this board are living it.

SwordGuy

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #84 on: December 27, 2020, 01:41:45 PM »
Snip

Oooh good post. And yes wholeheartedly agree on the lack of empathy anytime the minimum wage is brought up. I hear a lot of economic arguments about why the minimum wage (especially in the US).

But I do suggest that it’s a lack of assets and savings that keep people poor, and income is a secondary factor. Feeds into the notion of toxic stress you mentioned. If you have savings, you’re not one pay check away from ruin. If you have a house sans mortgage, you can generally be confident you’ll forever have a roof over your head if you lose your job.

That counts for a lot, and yes does allow for some better quality decision making and better quality purchases, purely because of the extra opportunities afforded. We all know that, because all of us on this board are living it.

Savings don't happen if there is no surplus income to divert to savings.   Surplus as in more income than you have to spend to get by. 

So, the first barrier to having adequate savings is to have adequate income.

The second barrier to having adequate savings is being lucky enough that you don't have a catastrophic illness or injury outside of your control.

The third barrier to having adequate savings is actually saving the income surplus.


And, as someone who has looked at hundreds of homes in my county as potential investments, owning a home is no guarantee the roof won't fall in because the money to maintain the house isn't there.


SpinWave0704

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #85 on: December 27, 2020, 07:40:04 PM »
Snip

Oooh good post. And yes wholeheartedly agree on the lack of empathy anytime the minimum wage is brought up. I hear a lot of economic arguments about why the minimum wage (especially in the US).

But I do suggest that it’s a lack of assets and savings that keep people poor, and income is a secondary factor. Feeds into the notion of toxic stress you mentioned. If you have savings, you’re not one pay check away from ruin. If you have a house sans mortgage, you can generally be confident you’ll forever have a roof over your head if you lose your job.

That counts for a lot, and yes does allow for some better quality decision making and better quality purchases, purely because of the extra opportunities afforded. We all know that, because all of us on this board are living it.

Savings don't happen if there is no surplus income to divert to savings.   Surplus as in more income than you have to spend to get by. 

So, the first barrier to having adequate savings is to have adequate income.

The second barrier to having adequate savings is being lucky enough that you don't have a catastrophic illness or injury outside of your control.

The third barrier to having adequate savings is actually saving the income surplus.


And, as someone who has looked at hundreds of homes in my county as potential investments, owning a home is no guarantee the roof won't fall in because the money to maintain the house isn't there.

Oooh good post.
Thank you, you're very kind! Long-time reader (mostly lurking), new-time poster

it’s a lack of assets and savings that keep people poor, and income is a secondary factor. 
Agreed. It's a myth that 40% of Americans households can't cover a $400 emergency expense, but it's a non-zero number, for sure. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-400-emergency-expense-story-is-wrong
I've read that 14% may be a more accurate number? Although even 14% is quite high.
The question that remains is: why don't people have assets (savings) that can tide you through the next (minor) emergency? I recall reading a post here, and the author succinctly commented that most minor emergencies are actually predictable: You don't know what or when, but some routine bad luck happens predictably: a roof leak, a blown tire, a root canal, etc.

(adding bold to enumerate SwordGuy's post)
So, the first barrier to having adequate savings is to have adequate income.
Agreed! What is the cause of inadequate income?
  • Is this because even in the best case scenario of full-time employment at the minimum wage, the income isn't sufficient to cover the basic expenses? (Basic expenses as described above.)
  • Or it because of other factors, such as reduction of hours (covid-related, etc.), only part-time employment is available, seasonal layoffs, not all adults in the household are employed, etc?
  • Or is it a combination of both?

The second barrier to having adequate savings is being lucky enough that you don't have a catastrophic illness or injury outside of your control.
Agreed here too. 3 people in my immediate family have had extensive hospital stays (congenital disorder, car accident, and a very serious infection). I'm hoping that my family's bad luck with health issues is... not the norm. (We were lucky with good health insurance, though.)
How common are catastrophic illness or injuries, and how many households are impacted by them? What percentage of people are living at poverty-levels, without the basics, because of family medical bills?  Many articles that I've read on poverty and financial insecurity talk about catastrophic illnesses as a driver. I'd like to learn more, including how much rising medical costs impacts an average low-income household.

The third barrier to having adequate savings is actually saving the income surplus.
Yep. And "saving the income surplus" requires:
  • financial education,
  • access to non-predatory banking services,
  • a "savings" mindset, which is may have an inverse relationship with poverty-related stress,
  • and probably has other reqs that I've haven't considered yet
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 09:08:29 PM by SpinWave0704 »

SwordGuy

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #86 on: December 27, 2020, 09:15:25 PM »
Snip

Oooh good post. And yes wholeheartedly agree on the lack of empathy anytime the minimum wage is brought up. I hear a lot of economic arguments about why the minimum wage (especially in the US).

But I do suggest that it’s a lack of assets and savings that keep people poor, and income is a secondary factor. Feeds into the notion of toxic stress you mentioned. If you have savings, you’re not one pay check away from ruin. If you have a house sans mortgage, you can generally be confident you’ll forever have a roof over your head if you lose your job.

That counts for a lot, and yes does allow for some better quality decision making and better quality purchases, purely because of the extra opportunities afforded. We all know that, because all of us on this board are living it.

Savings don't happen if there is no surplus income to divert to savings.   Surplus as in more income than you have to spend to get by. 

So, the first barrier to having adequate savings is to have adequate income.

The second barrier to having adequate savings is being lucky enough that you don't have a catastrophic illness or injury outside of your control.

The third barrier to having adequate savings is actually saving the income surplus.


And, as someone who has looked at hundreds of homes in my county as potential investments, owning a home is no guarantee the roof won't fall in because the money to maintain the house isn't there.

Oooh good post.
Thank you, you're very kind! Long-time reader (mostly lurking), new-time poster

it’s a lack of assets and savings that keep people poor, and income is a secondary factor. 
Agreed. It's a myth that 40% of Americans households can't cover a $400 emergency expense, but it's a non-zero number, for sure. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/the-400-emergency-expense-story-is-wrong
I've read that 14% may be a more accurate number? Although even 14% is quite high. The question that remains is: why don't people have assets (cash, savings, etc) that can tide you through the next minor emergency?


(adding bold to enumerate SwordGuy's post)

So, the first barrier to having adequate savings is to have adequate income.
Agreed! What is the cause of inadequate income?
  • Is this because even in the best case scenario of full-time employment at the minimum wage, the income isn't sufficient to cover the basic expenses? (Basic expenses as described above.)
  • Or it because of other factors, such as reduction of hours (covid-related, etc.), only part-time employment is available, seasonal layoffs, not all adults in the household are employed, etc?
  • Or is it a combination of both?
Depends on the person.  What's beyond dispute is that a large swath of people who work full time (or try to) only earn poverty wages instead of a decent living.    The biggest single condemnation of capitalism in this country is the large number of people who maintain it simply MUST BE SO, that the system cannot survive if the people at the bottom are paid a decent living.   Very few have the courage to come out and say so in such plain language -- they prefer to believe the fable that EVERYONE at the bottom can get a better paying job via up-skilling.   There aren't enough of those jobs for everyone.


The second barrier to having adequate savings is being lucky enough that you don't have a catastrophic illness or injury outside of your control.
Agreed here too. 3 people in my immediate family have had extensive hospital stays (congenital disorder, car accident, and a very serious infection). I'm hoping that my family's bad luck with health issues is... not the norm. (We were lucky with good health insurance, though.)
How common are catastrophic illness or injuries, and how many households are impacted by them? What percentage of people are living at poverty-levels, without the basics, because of family medical bills?  Many articles that I've read on poverty and financial insecurity talk about catastrophic illnesses as a driver. I'd like to learn more, including how much rising medical costs impacts an average low-income household.

I can't tell you how many.  Too many.

I can tell you from our personal experience of being poor that if my wife had gotten ill a couple  years earlier than she did I would be a widower.   We didn't have medical insurance when we were poor.   There was simply no money available for it.   We wanted it.  We knew it was prudent to have it.   It just wasn't possible.   I don't have all my teeth because it was cheaper to have a tooth pulled than it was to treat it properly. 

And we were the lucky ones.   God help the ones who aren't, because half our nation won't if they have their way.


The third barrier to having adequate savings is actually saving the income surplus.
Yep. And "saving the income surplus" requires:
  • financial education,
  • access to non-predatory banking services,
  • a "savings" mindset, which is may have an inverse relationship with poverty-related stress,
  • and probably has other reqs that I've haven't considered yet
Agreed.    We can help with financial literacy but if the first two barriers aren't overcome it won't help them near as much, if at all.

ctuser1

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #87 on: December 27, 2020, 09:50:14 PM »
I think some people has the mindset that most very poor people can't be helped, because:
1. It is too expensive.
2. The reason they are poor is non-financial.

When you dig into it, the numbers seem to tell a different story.

The "welfare states" of Europe seem to be able to make sure that the number of people in extreme poverty is much lower.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty#Population_living_below_national_poverty_line
US population living on PPP $1.90 is 1.2% in the US, while it is 0.2% in UK, and even Greece beat us on that metric.

It is also a myth to think US actually spends any less money on welfare than the European "welfare states". France is often touted as the country with one of the highest (if not the highest) welfare spending. Well, let's look at some numbers:
1. US GDP per capita=$62.8k (2018).
2. France GDP per capita=$41.5k (2018).
3. US spends 18.7% of it's GDP on social welfare (=$11.74k per capita), while France spends 31% (=$12.87k per capita).

It might appear that France is spending more ($12.87k vs $11.74k), but that masks the fact that the US "social welfare" spending does not cover a large section of the medical spending. US only includes the medicare and medicaid in that figure, while France includes almost all healthcare. Include that, and US spends far more than France on what France considers to be "social welfare"!

This matches my anecdotal experience. The blue state I live in has very generous welfare. It's not easy to get that welfare, however. Multiple agencies, complicated paperwork etc means not everyone who *could* qualify actually manage to get them.

So, if the US is spending just as much as France on welfare, why do we not get the benefits of welfare and still have 1.2% people on extreme poverty (as compared to 0.0% in France and 0.2% in UK)? I can't claim to have spent enough time to *know* the answer, but strongly suspect that the conservative attempt to sabotage welfare causes poverty, which of course is very expensive and causes higher welfare spending. The inefficiency of the US healthcare system (double the cost, for worse outcome) is possibly another driver.



« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 09:55:23 PM by ctuser1 »

marty998

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2020, 03:11:36 AM »
Ugh. There’s too lengthy responses here already to respond to everything (imagine if I hadn’t snipped the original post!)

@SwordGuy yes alright shit can still hit the fan if you own a house but I did say “GENERALLY” and not “specifically in each and every one of all the hundreds of millions of cases out there” if you own a house you don’t have to worry about not being able to pay rent next week if you lose your job. At least a roof replacement may be able to be covered by insurance etc etc, and because you have no mortgage you might have a better shot of being able to save just a little bit to pay for a little more quality that lasts that little bit better/longer etc.

That purchase of quality is, IMO, an important step in getting off the treadmill of purchases that contribute to keeping people poor. Things like leasing appliances, taking pay day loans, shit that costs much more in the long run.

I appreciate this is a bit of a chicken and egg scenario (what came first, the savings or the asset?) and you can’t mandate optimal decisions. But you can choose a government/society and choose to do business with companies that don’t actively try and stop “the great unwashed” from trying to break into that circle.

You can’t save everyone, but that’s not the point of the exercise.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 03:13:43 AM by marty998 »

ChpBstrd

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #89 on: December 28, 2020, 07:41:04 AM »
Imagine a society where consumerism is the national religion, and everyone truly, deeply in their hearts believes the aggregate messages of advertising:  contentment is a purchase away, bigger is better, and that wealth, beauty, and family functionality are based on buying all the right things. Imagine a national holiday, supported by the government, based on going into credit card debt each year. Imagine if people who tried not to participate were ostracized, fined by their HOA, called names like “Scrooge” and “grinch”, and made to feel badly for not reciprocating the norms of gifting manufactured items that will be trash within months.

Imagine being a low wage earner in such a world, trying to save some money or escape poverty. How do you find enough reliable roommates who are also militantly opposed to the national culture to offset the high cost of housing (if having that many roommates is even legal in your “zone”)? How do you get to work and to the grocery store in a car-centric city or town? How do you get a date when everyone around you thinks you look “trashy” and the norms of dating in your culture involve spending over $100 at restaurants and bars? What do you do when medical / dental insurance is only allowed for higher wage professions, and the education required to reach that level of earnings costs a six figure sum you don’t have, plus time away from work you can’t afford? Just imagine the pressure to have your own bedroom, a car, some “going out” clothes and budget, and that’s about enough to send the savings rate to zero or below. Throw in a significant other or kids just for added difficulty, and let them believe the national religion. And all this time the TV, your phone, the billboards, and even the car radio are reminding you that your discontentment is probably due to not spending enough.

The culture itself is an evil genius product to keep people working as much as possible for the benefit of others. It’s like all the “low fat” (high carb) or sugar-free (synthetic sweetener) products targeted at dieters. The more such products they consume, the more fat they get, thus causing them to buy more such products and crave more carbs.

It would take a radical extremist’s mindset to escape the inevitable outcomes of a consumerist culture on low wage earners, and instead save half of one’s income. You’d have to be willing to alienate a lot of people, play along with the system in some ways but not others, and indoctrinate your family and friends in an oppositional value set that from their perspective only leads to deprivation. Then you’d have to rely on each other to do chores in a communal living arrangement that could keep everyone’s costs low, and somehow navigate all the conflict that comes with that.

All this for what? If a low wage earner can save half their income they might end up with a whopping ten grand in a year. Far better than nothing, but it’s still gone when the furnace goes out and a kid needs braces.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #90 on: December 28, 2020, 09:40:24 AM »
I think some people has the mindset that most very poor people can't be helped, because:
1. It is too expensive.
2. The reason they are poor is non-financial.

When you dig into it, the numbers seem to tell a different story.

The "welfare states" of Europe seem to be able to make sure that the number of people in extreme poverty is much lower.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty#Population_living_below_national_poverty_line
US population living on PPP $1.90 is 1.2% in the US, while it is 0.2% in UK, and even Greece beat us on that metric.

It is also a myth to think US actually spends any less money on welfare than the European "welfare states". France is often touted as the country with one of the highest (if not the highest) welfare spending. Well, let's look at some numbers:
1. US GDP per capita=$62.8k (2018).
2. France GDP per capita=$41.5k (2018).
3. US spends 18.7% of it's GDP on social welfare (=$11.74k per capita), while France spends 31% (=$12.87k per capita).

It might appear that France is spending more ($12.87k vs $11.74k), but that masks the fact that the US "social welfare" spending does not cover a large section of the medical spending. US only includes the medicare and medicaid in that figure, while France includes almost all healthcare. Include that, and US spends far more than France on what France considers to be "social welfare"!

This matches my anecdotal experience. The blue state I live in has very generous welfare. It's not easy to get that welfare, however. Multiple agencies, complicated paperwork etc means not everyone who *could* qualify actually manage to get them.

So, if the US is spending just as much as France on welfare, why do we not get the benefits of welfare and still have 1.2% people on extreme poverty (as compared to 0.0% in France and 0.2% in UK)? I can't claim to have spent enough time to *know* the answer, but strongly suspect that the conservative attempt to sabotage welfare causes poverty, which of course is very expensive and causes higher welfare spending. The inefficiency of the US healthcare system (double the cost, for worse outcome) is possibly another driver.

1.2% of the US population of ~330 million is 4 million people. $1.90 a day is $700/year.

I find it hard to believe there are 4 million people in the US living on less than $700/year. That data table you linked to uses data compiled by the World Bank that appears to use inference from various national surveys of poverty levels. So it sounds like they're estimating that 1.2% of the US would be under that level based on how many people might fall at the far lower end of a bell curve of income distribution. I'm not sure if that takes into account non-cash government or private assistance, i.e. food banks, free clothing, shelters, etc. 

I look at some of the truly poor countries in Africa I just visited where people are literally living off nothing but maybe a portion of rice provided by an NGO and living in a tent or shelter made from rocks, sticks, and garbage. Even a homeless person in the US is far better off than that and can receive more than $700/year in goods and services from various public and private sources.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #91 on: December 28, 2020, 09:52:21 AM »
I don't really understand how people can live long-term without union protections. Working a job where you can be fired at a moment's notice because your boss doesn't like the shirt you wore to work isn't my idea of a good time. Of course, a lot of states in the USA have effectively outlawed unions, so your options are limited in this country if you want job protections.

ctuser1

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #92 on: December 28, 2020, 10:10:29 AM »
1.2% of the US population of ~330 million is 4 million people. $1.90 a day is $700/year.

I find it hard to believe there are 4 million people in the US living on less than $700/year. That data table you linked to uses data compiled by the World Bank that appears to use inference from various national surveys of poverty levels. So it sounds like they're estimating that 1.2% of the US would be under that level based on how many people might fall at the far lower end of a bell curve of income distribution. I'm not sure if that takes into account non-cash government or private assistance, i.e. food banks, free clothing, shelters, etc. 

I look at some of the truly poor countries in Africa I just visited where people are literally living off nothing but maybe a portion of rice provided by an NGO and living in a tent or shelter made from rocks, sticks, and garbage. Even a homeless person in the US is far better off than that and can receive more than $700/year in goods and services from various public and private sources.

1. The $700 is a PPP number. Long time ago, in a totally different context, I had dealt with some PPP data comparing emerging markets with OECD. In that specific context, US $ would have adjusted 6X upwards on a PPP basis (i.e. to buy the same stuff that a guy in Africa purchases for $700, you would need to spend $700 X 6 = $4200 in the US proper). I don't *know* exactly how the PPP was indexed in the data - but if we assume, say, a 6X adjustment like I remember seeing many years ago, then PPP $700 = Nominal US $4200. Multiply that by 3 for a single mom with two kids - and the number isn't all that surprising any more!

2. Whatever the actual $$ figures may be, shouldn't that affect all OECD (e.g. UK/France) similarly? For pure "comparison" across similar countries, don't you think it is still valid to say "US has higher incidence of extreme poverty than other welfare states"?

 

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #93 on: December 28, 2020, 10:33:40 AM »
Maybe because it's a sweeping generalisation that doesn't actually apply to many people.

I know that the right wing press love to generate antipathy to anyone who receives state benefits but people don't generally wish others to be deprived, nor do they create elaborate fantasies about their past. A few do, maybe, but most people don't.

It's how people actually vote and lobby. It goes far beyond state benefits. I call it the "I got mine, so forget you" mentality, and it is common to both the left and the right. No gender, generation, ethnicity, creed, or political perspective is exempt.

I'll illustrate, using examples that don't involve money.

Millions of people spent the 1960s and 1970s getting drunk or high and having fun. Some of them were in college. Others just saw a need to behave as though the word "party" was a verb. They had the benefit of whatever alcohol and drug experimentation was necessary to their personal development, and the vast majority eventually outgrew the "party" mentality and got on with their lives *without* any lifelong legal consequences. Once they reached that stage, they used their demographic majority to elect and support legislators who cracked down on the same behaviors they themselves had engaged in: underage alcohol experimentation, recreational drug use, and such. This did not really affect the next generation's experimentation, except that now that those activities were criminalized a college-aged young adult who did exactly what his parents and grandparents did would be hit with a felony conviction and possible prison time. The children of wealthy families mostly avoided that penalty, so it fell disproportionately on young people from poorer families, and families of color in particular: a felony conviction makes a person ineligible for all kinds of jobs and other opportunities. Meanwhile, having large numbers of potential competitors locked up or legally ineligible for certain kinds of work makes the job applicant pool smaller. This creates far more plentiful opportunities for the people who do *not* have convictions (either because they were raised in a way that allowed them to avoid exposure to the illegal thing, or because they were able to avoid getting caught, or because they were able to avoid punishment after being caught). But you will almost never see a person who gets a job that requires a clean criminal record, a clean drug test, or any kind of background check acknowledge that their opportunity came as a result of any factors other than their own hard work, sacrifice, and moral rectitude. Once they are in an environment where their hard work *can* produce rewards, and once their hard work starts to pay off, people get used to it. In fact, they assume that the reward-for-work relationship is universal (even though it isn't). The notion that there are destructive behaviors that ought to be punished starts to seem reasonable, and the fact that they, individually, have Straightened Up and Flown Right makes it easy to justify withholding opportunity from people who, by virtue of their felony convictions and lifestyle choices, have failed to do so.

Today's biggest young liberals, the modern equivalents of the hippies from the 1960's and 1970's, seem to believe that they will not succumb to the exact same change of perspective. Maybe it's because they have not yet gotten theirs that they regard the "forget you" part as bad or inappropriate. Or perhaps it's because they haven't been seriously tested yet. I think that, in time, large numbers of them will succumb in turn to human nature. There will be outliers who don't, of course, however recent history suggests that most of them will kick the ladder away sooner or later.

Many people benefit from safe and legal abortion, and it goes far beyond the very extreme cases of a baby with medical problems who is doomed anyway or a pregnant woman in medical distress whose life cannot otherwise be saved. We all know examples of female people who benefit from avoiding the pain and responsibility of a pregnancy at a critical time of her life, and from avoiding the medical expenses and debt that go along with pregnancy and delivery. I won't repeat these cases here because we've all heard it. But there are male people who benefit too. Consider the college student or trades apprentice who is allowed to complete his education without having to drop out and work to pay child support. Consider one of the recent candidates for a major party's 2016 Presidential nomination: a medical doctor whose educational credentials were based in part on research using fetal cell tissue, who made the *banning* of such research a part of his platform. Consider the people whose lives have been saved and improved by fetal cell tissue research, some of whom are male. Consider the hardworking father who is already working as hard as he can to provide for his wife and children, some of whom may have special needs, who simply cannot afford to feed even one more mouth. Consider also the children from such a family who continue to receive a share of their parents' time and resources. Some of those indirect beneficiaries are male too. Yet doesn't seem to stop them (or female people who have benefited from an abortion either directly or indirectly) from aggressively voting and lobbying to prevent other people from benefiting in a similar way. They've already got theirs, so forget everyone else... and pretend that their own hands are somehow clean when they aren't.

People who vote in favor of laws that criminalize behaviors they themselves have engaged in or benefited from, and who do not immediately turn themselves in for the appropriate punishment, are pretending that their own behavior or shortcomings didn't exist  (false personal narrative) or that it was somehow more justified or less serious than someone else's similar behavior (rationalization). That's hypocrisy no matter how we slice it. But the urge to throw that first stone is part of human nature. So is the urge to rewrite history a bit so that the person who wants to crack down on others while simultaneously avoiding punishment. The proof? Witness the absence of an avalanche of Baby Boomers thundering into the local police station to turn themselves in or even pay the fines related to their own drunk driving or drug experimentation back in the day. They didn't do it in the "Just Say No" era, and they aren't doing it now even when the punishments for drug possession and use are much lighter.

Now let's consider civil rights. Anti-discrimination, which includes the anti-segregation initiative, enjoyed broad support from people from every ethnicity and sexual orientation. People of all sorts gathered under Reverend King's banner, and his message-- religious though it was-- was so full of common sense and objectivity that it eventually prevailed... partially. The right to non-discrimination based on race made it into the Constitution, but not non-discrimination based on sexual orientation. Why? Well... after Reverend King's death, it turned out to be a case of "support me getting my rights, because Religion" turning into "Thanks for the help getting me my rights, but I can't support you getting yours, because Religion." In other words, "I got mine, so forget you." The struggle for LGBTQ equality has been mostly without support from churches of any sort, and coincidentally without much support from most mainstream Black communities. This has made life even more difficult for LGBTQ people *from* religious and/or mainstream Black communities, because they get "forget you" from even more angles, including their own parents and family who can and do wish for them to be deprived of the benefits of things like legal marriage. In fact, in some circles it's still fashionable to expel a gay son or daughter from the family or at least make sure that they never get to bring somebody special to Christmas dinner.

It might have seemed intuitively obvious that non-straight people, having so recently been on the receiving end of I-got-mine-so-forget-you, might be more sensitive to it. But they're not. First, gay men and women immediately turned against bisexual people and made them into second-class citizens within the gay community. It's because people who experience attraction to individuals of more than one gender are a threat. If equality is being fought for, and won, based on the argument that sexual orientation is innate and not a choice (which is true for many people), then the presence of even one person who even *appears* to have the option of a choice is dangerous. For this reason, bisexual and pansexual people are relegated to second-class citizenship within most gay communities. They not welcome in most gay clubs or social circles, although straight people are. Most gay people, and most straight people, refuse to date or marry a bisexual person because there's an unfounded stereotype about bi people being incapable of emotional attachment or commitment. It's still OK to stigmatize bisexuality as being synonymous with immaturity, disloyalty, adulterousness, promiscuity, and psychopathy. For details, see every Hollywood movie featuring a bisexual person, ever. Furthermore, there are gay people who, after benefiting financially from the last four years or economic boom in the stock market, voted in favor of their pockets even though the administration that helped create and perpetuate that boom was aggressively targeting people of the same sexual orientation as themselves. They were well enough educated, wealthy enough (balance sheet AND income), and well enough connected to not be in danger of significant personal harm even if all the non-discrimination law was magically erased. In short, they got theirs, so forget you.

If you add up all the people who seek to criminalize what they themselves have directly or indirectly benefited from, or who have benefited from a lift up the corporate or social ladder only to intentionally exclude some of the people who helped to boost them, unfortunately what you have is the majority of human adults. That's how it's been in the past, including the recent past: "I've got mine, so forget you" is an immutable part of human nature. For that reason, I believe that the future will continue to be *exactly* like the past.

Unless. (I can do this because the Lorax is manifest in my living room.)

Every individual person who rejects the "I got mine, so forget you" mentality has the power to turn around and empower others. If every one of these raises up two (or preferably three) more people who would otherwise not get an opportunity-- and understand that our own kids don't count because they already *will* get that opportunity-- it's a start. If everyone who is so lifted and raised turns around understands that they have the duty to do the same for two to three others, and passes along both the opportunity and the obligation in three ways, what we will have is an exponential chain reaction that could, if left unchecked, encompass the entire globe.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #94 on: December 28, 2020, 10:48:53 AM »
1.2% of the US population of ~330 million is 4 million people. $1.90 a day is $700/year.

I find it hard to believe there are 4 million people in the US living on less than $700/year. That data table you linked to uses data compiled by the World Bank that appears to use inference from various national surveys of poverty levels. So it sounds like they're estimating that 1.2% of the US would be under that level based on how many people might fall at the far lower end of a bell curve of income distribution. I'm not sure if that takes into account non-cash government or private assistance, i.e. food banks, free clothing, shelters, etc. 

I look at some of the truly poor countries in Africa I just visited where people are literally living off nothing but maybe a portion of rice provided by an NGO and living in a tent or shelter made from rocks, sticks, and garbage. Even a homeless person in the US is far better off than that and can receive more than $700/year in goods and services from various public and private sources.

1. The $700 is a PPP number. Long time ago, in a totally different context, I had dealt with some PPP data comparing emerging markets with OECD. In that specific context, US $ would have adjusted 6X upwards on a PPP basis (i.e. to buy the same stuff that a guy in Africa purchases for $700, you would need to spend $700 X 6 = $4200 in the US proper). I don't *know* exactly how the PPP was indexed in the data - but if we assume, say, a 6X adjustment like I remember seeing many years ago, then PPP $700 = Nominal US $4200. Multiply that by 3 for a single mom with two kids - and the number isn't all that surprising any more!

2. Whatever the actual $$ figures may be, shouldn't that affect all OECD (e.g. UK/France) similarly? For pure "comparison" across similar countries, don't you think it is still valid to say "US has higher incidence of extreme poverty than other welfare states"?

That makes a lot more sense if the nominal number in the US is several times higher.

I'm always skeptical when I see statistics like this compiled from multiple different sources. It's difficult to know all the nuances of how each country collects and reports data. For instance, some countries will report a baby dying 15 minutes after birth as stillborn and thus their statistics will show lower infant mortality rates than another country which would consider that a live birth. In the case of these figures, are countries counting non-governmental assistance in that dollar amount which is going to be much higher in the US than many countries?

Regardless of the data collection methodology though, it's still a problem that people are in extreme poverty in a country as wealthy as the US.

SwordGuy

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #95 on: December 28, 2020, 11:05:47 AM »
@TheGrimSqueaker , you left out of your excellent points the plain fact that different drugs were differently criminalized based on which socio-economic/racial groups used them more, by the Nixon administration, for the explicit purpose of locking up more blacks.

ctuser1

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #96 on: December 28, 2020, 11:29:23 AM »
In the case of these figures, are countries counting non-governmental assistance in that dollar amount which is going to be much higher in the US than many countries?

Just wanted to point out this is a significant part of the problem in the US.

Private charity is much less efficient than government welfare. SNAP spends 93.2% of it's funds on food proper. Private non-religious NGO's can't come close to this figure due to lack of scale, and for religious charities the theological concerns often eat up the resources that could go towards actual charity. Look across any variety of figures, and you will find that a reasonably "badly run" government welfare blows private charity out of the water in terms of efficiency.

Private charity has a big role to fill in niche areas that fall through the cracks of the slow-moving government behemoth. But the libertarian/conservative fetish of replacing government run welfare runs up against actual reality and causes a lot of actual harm.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #97 on: December 28, 2020, 11:38:48 AM »
1.2% of the US population of ~330 million is 4 million people. $1.90 a day is $700/year.

I find it hard to believe there are 4 million people in the US living on less than $700/year. That data table you linked to uses data compiled by the World Bank that appears to use inference from various national surveys of poverty levels. So it sounds like they're estimating that 1.2% of the US would be under that level based on how many people might fall at the far lower end of a bell curve of income distribution. I'm not sure if that takes into account non-cash government or private assistance, i.e. food banks, free clothing, shelters, etc. 

I look at some of the truly poor countries in Africa I just visited where people are literally living off nothing but maybe a portion of rice provided by an NGO and living in a tent or shelter made from rocks, sticks, and garbage. Even a homeless person in the US is far better off than that and can receive more than $700/year in goods and services from various public and private sources.

1. The $700 is a PPP number. Long time ago, in a totally different context, I had dealt with some PPP data comparing emerging markets with OECD. In that specific context, US $ would have adjusted 6X upwards on a PPP basis (i.e. to buy the same stuff that a guy in Africa purchases for $700, you would need to spend $700 X 6 = $4200 in the US proper). I don't *know* exactly how the PPP was indexed in the data - but if we assume, say, a 6X adjustment like I remember seeing many years ago, then PPP $700 = Nominal US $4200. Multiply that by 3 for a single mom with two kids - and the number isn't all that surprising any more!

2. Whatever the actual $$ figures may be, shouldn't that affect all OECD (e.g. UK/France) similarly? For pure "comparison" across similar countries, don't you think it is still valid to say "US has higher incidence of extreme poverty than other welfare states"?

That makes a lot more sense if the nominal number in the US is several times higher.

I'm always skeptical when I see statistics like this compiled from multiple different sources. It's difficult to know all the nuances of how each country collects and reports data. For instance, some countries will report a baby dying 15 minutes after birth as stillborn and thus their statistics will show lower infant mortality rates than another country which would consider that a live birth. In the case of these figures, are countries counting non-governmental assistance in that dollar amount which is going to be much higher in the US than many countries?

Regardless of the data collection methodology though, it's still a problem that people are in extreme poverty in a country as wealthy as the US.

I'm also interested in how, or if, those statistics and studies account for effects related to the currency exchange rate.

There's a bang-for-the-buck effect associated with the exchange rate between many local currencies and the US dollar. Specifically, there are nations in which USD$1 goes much farther due to the exchange rate of the national currencies, which is a very arbitrary and somewhat artificial thing.

Using some publicly available information off the Net, I found that a semester's worth of tuition at Makerere University for a computer science degree is a little more than 1.9 million Ugandan shillings with fees for freshmen at over 800,000 UGS but greatly reduced after the first term. Using today's exchange rates, roughly 3,649 UGS:1 USD, that works out to about USD$521 for tuition for an entire semester of education at the 5th-highest-ranked university on the continent, plus USD$236 in fees for the first term (but far less after that). This would be a total, out of pocket, of $757 for room for the first semester for an applicant from anywhere on the African continent. This is aside from any scholarships, sponsorships, bursaries, student loans, or NGO aid. A person who wanted to create, say, a computer science graduate... could easily do so for an average of USD$1,500 per year.

I checked UNM for what a local student would pay, again without regard to scholarships, grants, or other kinds of aid. This would be a nontraditional student who perhaps did a GED instead of a normal graduation, or who is an adult and not a recent graduate, or who is trying to scramble up from a chaotic early environment. A single year at UNM costs about $11k per year for just tuition, room, and board (excluding books and miscellaneous other expenses).

The figure of $700 a year would cover an entire semester's expenses for a university student at Makerere for the second term or later. At UNM, the same level of support for half a year's expenses would be USD$9,563. That's more than thirteen times more expensive. Is the quality at UNM thirteen times higher than it is at Mak? Well... there may be a few advantages but a 13x multiplier seems excessive to me, particularly since the Expatistan Web site calculated cost of living in Kampala as only 37% cheaper than in Albuquerque.

Suppose we were to use a bang-for-the-buck calculation and deliberately factor out exchange rate, using a semester's worth of university education as a kind of universal currency. We could tell a different story using the same numbers.

While there aren't many American adults subsisting on less than $700 per year I am personally acquainted with several who subsist on less than USD$9,563 apiece. Many of them are not eligible for welfare style benefits, or are simply unable to stay stable enough for long enough to access them. With something like 300 million individuals in the nation, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine 4 million other people who are disabled but not hooked up with welfare income, or addicted, or mentally ill, or down and out. Some of them are couch surfing (not officially homeless). Others may be living on a poor rez, or undocumented, or otherwise struggling to make it. That, I think, is what poverty analysts are talking about. People aren't really living in tents (except for tent cities such as the big one in Los Angeles near LAX), but lots of them are couch surfing, living under overpasses or in abandoned buildings, going from shelter to shelter, and sharing accommodations with, say, nine people to a three-bedroom house or apartment.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #98 on: December 28, 2020, 11:42:50 AM »
@TheGrimSqueaker , you left out of your excellent points the plain fact that different drugs were differently criminalized based on which socio-economic/racial groups used them more, by the Nixon administration, for the explicit purpose of locking up more blacks.

Indeed I did, along with the enlisted versus officer tracks in the US military and the behavior of the entire insurance industry. There wasn't as much "I've got mine" in those angles.

Just Joe

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Re: What happens to these people?
« Reply #99 on: December 28, 2020, 04:15:51 PM »
Can you elaborate on the officer vs enlisted tracks in the military? I'd like to know more.