The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: Torran on May 16, 2017, 03:03:17 AM
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Weddings right. WEDDINGS. -_-
I'm 31, so my facebook feed is now choc full of other people's weddings. Everyone *miraculously* met The One as soon as they hit 30 and are now maxing out credit cards on One Perfect Day to Prove It.
Sorry, I'm a little bitter. I've attended 4 weddings in the past 2 years, and I'm bridesmaid for one coming up in August. Right now I feel like I'm the sane one in a room full of crazy people.
The last wedding I went to cost £36,000.
Please, tell me I'm not the only one. Share your stories. What was the most ridiculous wedding you went to? What part of a wedding do you consider utter nonsense? Guest-books? Favours? Polaroid cameras? Photo booths? Cakes that cost far more than a cake POSSIBLE COULD? Or, my favourite, people inexplicably pretending to be millionaires?
Please, let us bitch about it anonymously on the internet. I need to hear sane views.
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I used to film weddings as a side hustle. From my experience the lower cost ones tended to be the most fun.
Most rediculous thing I experienced was frozen butterflies in cardboard boxes, each guest got to open a box, and if you were lucky it wasn't dead and flew away.
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Most rediculous thing I experienced was frozen butterflies in cardboard boxes, each guest got to open a box, and if you were lucky it wasn't dead and flew away.
I'm both disgusted and amused by this....
Several weddings stand out to me as being particularly insane - one was a destination wedding in Hawai'i where the bride had gotten in her head that she wanted "wedding magazine quality" photos (a phrase she used often). She had her four closest friends *rehearsing* an entrance/dance number the weeks leading up to the actual ceremony. She had them sending in photos of their shoes and nail polish for approval and wanted them all to have their hair done at a fancy salon just as a practice run (they then had to go back a second time for the actual wedding). At various times at least three of them were brought to tears by her insane demands.
... at least the pictures were good.
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Most rediculous thing I experienced was frozen butterflies in cardboard boxes, each guest got to open a box, and if you were lucky it wasn't dead and flew away.
I'm both disgusted and amused by this....
Several weddings stand out to me as being particularly insane - one was a destination wedding in Hawai'i where the bride had gotten in her head that she wanted "wedding magazine quality" photos (a phrase she used often). She had her four closest friends *rehearsing* an entrance/dance number the weeks leading up to the actual ceremony. She had them sending in photos of their shoes and nail polish for approval and wanted them all to have their hair done at a fancy salon just as a practice run (they then had to go back a second time for the actual wedding). At various times at least three of them were brought to tears by her insane demands.
... at least the pictures were good.
Bahaha! The pictures are what matters, right? :/
My favourite mad moment form recent wedding I attended:
The bridesmaids were given a polaroid camera and a spreadsheet of guest combinations (yes, this happened) so they would take pictures of specific combinations of guests as dictated by the bride. The photos were then inserted into the guestbook and everyone from that 'combo' had to write a happy wish for the bride and groom under the photo.
I got in trouble for taking a picture with someone who was NOT in my allocated combo. One of the poor bridesmaids was in charge of this absolute fiasco. The bride had delegated all kinds of monstrous tasks like this to the rest of the wedding party. Honestly I hope someone just wrote 'fuck you' across two whole pages of that guest book, to ruin it.
Ooft that felt good. I'm not this horrible in real life, honestly.
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I have little tolerance or sympathy for brides who treat their closest friends like unpaid labor for their wedding
day weekend. Apparently that's become kosher recently.
In the aforementioned wedding, my wife (then fiancée) was one of the bridesmaids. She had to pay for her own flight, lodging, dress and outfit, yet she was given no say or choice in any of those (except declining to go entirely). SHe had to go 5 days in advance of the wedding, and every friggen day was filled with 'activities' that were basically errands. One day she was sent to the florist to pick up a sample bouquet for the bride to approve of. She then had to drive back (across town in a city she didn't know in her rental car) to express to the florist how exactly the flowers should be different (using vague terms like 'more open and fluid').
Another wedding my parents went to was for the daughter of a two polish immigrants. It was a very large (~200 person) sit-down fancy reception, but the ceremony was a closed-to-family affair in a Orthodox church (no objections there either). What made it memorable though was that all the guests were at the reception awaiting the newly married couple and their families. And they waited. And they waited (all the while drinking lots of really good booze). About an hour after the starting time the bride's family walked in and you could see something was horribly amiss. The took the microphone and gave a very nice speech thanking all of her friends for coming and supporting her, and welcomed everyone to stay as long as they wanted because the food was already paid for but she didn't get married because her (now) ex cheated on her with the stripped at his bachelor party the night before. awkward!
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I have little tolerance or sympathy for brides who treat their closest friends like unpaid labor for their wedding day weekend. Apparently that's become kosher recently.
In the aforementioned wedding, my wife (then fiancée) was one of the bridesmaids. She had to pay for her own flight, lodging, dress and outfit, yet she was given no say or choice in any of those (except declining to go entirely). SHe had to go 5 days in advance of the wedding, and every friggen day was filled with 'activities' that were basically errands. One day she was sent to the florist to pick up a sample bouquet for the bride to approve of. She then had to drive back (across town in a city she didn't know in her rental car) to express to the florist how exactly the flowers should be different (using vague terms like 'more open and fluid').
Another wedding my parents went to was for the daughter of a two polish immigrants. It was a very large (~200 person) sit-down fancy reception, but the ceremony was a closed-to-family affair in a Orthodox church (no objections there either). What made it memorable though was that all the guests were at the reception awaiting the newly married couple and their families. And they waited. And they waited (all the while drinking lots of really good booze). About an hour after the starting time the bride's family walked in and you could see something was horribly amiss. The took the microphone and gave a very nice speech thanking all of her friends for coming and supporting her, and welcomed everyone to stay as long as they wanted because the food was already paid for but she didn't get married because her (now) ex cheated on her with the stripped at his bachelor party the night before. awkward!
Ha! Wow! Ok that last story, I actually have huge respect for that family for handling that so gracefully. But wow. That's a story I bet none of the guests ever stopped telling.
Your wife's bridesmaid duties made me angry on her behalf. I don't understand how so many brides Lose Their Minds about their wedding and start to get some kind of Mariah Carey complex.
As part of my bridesmaid duties I was asked to write a wedding reading for the ceremony. How lovely, I thought. The bride confirmed she was happy for the reading to be a 'surprise on the day'. Now, 3 months before the wedding, she wants to see the first draft so she can edit it.
FFS. I'm now going to have to write this reading, by committee, and all the fun and magic and love will be completely drained out of it. Just so the bride can ensure it EXACTLY meets her specifications on the day. Weddings!
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I used to film weddings as a side hustle. From my experience the lower cost ones tended to be the most fun.
I have noticed that. And people seem to be more genuinely happy!
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I used to film weddings as a side hustle. From my experience the lower cost ones tended to be the most fun.
I have noticed that. And people seem to be more genuinely happy!
Yup. Probably because they aren't worried about getting their money's (monies?) worth out of they $30K spent.
I think I've had it pretty lucky. All the weddings I've been to have been pretty low key (but over the years I've culled a lot of ugly people out of my life, that might be why). My older sisters wedding was at the Moose Lodge her husband's parents belong to and it was pot-luck style. I was the only bridesmaid/maid of honor. One of my best photos was me in my SO's fedora..dancing under the giant moose head. It is not something I'll ever forget. We all had a blast.
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Yup. Probably because they aren't worried about getting their money's (monies?) worth out of they $30K spent.
I think I've had it pretty lucky. All the weddings I've been to have been pretty low key (but over the years I've culled a lot of ugly people out of my life, that might be why). My older sisters wedding was at the Moose Lodge her husband's parents belong to and it was pot-luck style. I was the only bridesmaid/maid of honor. One of my best photos was me in my SO's fedora..dancing under the giant moose head. It is not something I'll ever forget. We all had a blast.
That sounds magical!! financially sane! The problem is that I came from a culture where our weddings are anywhere from 3 days(that being the condensed version) to 2 weeks. But I personally still plan on a wedding no more than $5000.
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Yup. Probably because they aren't worried about getting their money's (monies?) worth out of they $30K spent.
I think I've had it pretty lucky. All the weddings I've been to have been pretty low key (but over the years I've culled a lot of ugly people out of my life, that might be why). My older sisters wedding was at the Moose Lodge her husband's parents belong to and it was pot-luck style. I was the only bridesmaid/maid of honor. One of my best photos was me in my SO's fedora..dancing under the giant moose head. It is not something I'll ever forget. We all had a blast.
That sounds magical!! financially sane! The problem is that I came from a culture where our weddings are anywhere from 3 days(that being the condensed version) to 2 weeks. But I personally still plan on a wedding no more than $5000.
Abooki, do you mind if I ask which culture? I'd like to learn more! And I hope I didn't come off calling you or your culture ugly with my comment (now that I re-read it, it could be misconstrued). I understand that there are cultural differences in this regard, and I totally accept it, and one day would love to share in these longer-wedding/celebratory experiences (I believe Indian weddings can be quite the huge affair, and look so lovely to me). I only meant it in the way that I have culled out those who might have turned in to bridezillas, and such, so I've not had to experience that aspect. :)
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I used to film weddings as a side hustle. From my experience the lower cost ones tended to be the most fun.
I have noticed that. And people seem to be more genuinely happy!
To blunt my ranting about ridiculous weddings, here are the two weddings I have been to which were the most fun for everyone involved:
Wedding A:Two close friends rented two beach houses in Maine for Columbus day weekend. Normally the end of the season is the previous weekend, so they were able to convince the owners (who were aquaintances) to rent them for the cost of the cleaning service + security deposit. I think it was like $500. The ceremony itself was private with just 5 people, but the celebration was a cookout and bonfire on the beach, followed by breakfast the following morning and a hike. They hired a friend-chef to cater the cookout and bought pastries and bagels for breakfast from an awesome bakery nearby. It helps that the weather was phenomenal. Maybe 50 guests.
Wedding B: Former roommate married the girl of his dreams in September. They rented a lakefront house (again off-season) and the ceremony was them being married by a close friend standing on the dock. There were stand-up paddle boarders not far away. Wildfires nearby threatened for a bit but in the end the wind shifted and it made for the most spectacular sunset and photos. Food was handled by a half-dozen mothers and uncles and aunts, but was served family style without much fuss. Before/after the ceremony people were free to swim, kayak, hike or just sit by the lake and drink some beers. There were two 'signiature cocktails (named for the bride and the groom) and a self-help bar with just the ingredients need to make them (plus soda and beer and juice). I think people relished the opportunity to play bartender for a round. AS a side-gig I sometimes shoot weddings and those were my best wedding photos ever.
maybe there's a pattern here? Both of these weddings were drama free and total costs were a couple $k max.
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Yup. Probably because they aren't worried about getting their money's (monies?) worth out of they $30K spent.
I think I've had it pretty lucky. All the weddings I've been to have been pretty low key (but over the years I've culled a lot of ugly people out of my life, that might be why). My older sisters wedding was at the Moose Lodge her husband's parents belong to and it was pot-luck style. I was the only bridesmaid/maid of honor. One of my best photos was me in my SO's fedora..dancing under the giant moose head. It is not something I'll ever forget. We all had a blast.
That sounds magical!! financially sane! The problem is that I came from a culture where our weddings are anywhere from 3 days(that being the condensed version) to 2 weeks. But I personally still plan on a wedding no more than $5000.
Abooki, do you mind if I ask which culture? I'd like to learn more! And I hope I didn't come off calling you or your culture ugly with my comment (now that I re-read it, it could be misconstrued). I understand that there are cultural differences in this regard, and I totally accept it, and one day would love to share in these longer-wedding/celebratory experiences (I believe Indian weddings can be quite the huge affair, and look so lovely to me). I only meant it in the way that I have culled out those who might have turned in to bridezillas, and such, so I've not had to experience that aspect. :)
Cezilous- NO NO not in the slightest offended- you didn't call my culture ugly with your comment at all- I totally agreed with what you said. My culture- I am East African(Ugandan). And I am on the same page and I have no patience for spendy selfish bridezillas culture or not lol.
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I have a nephew who married a woman from a wealthy family. The wedding venue was a very upscale farm-to-table restaurant on the top of a mountain in a very expensive area. They hired buses to run all day long from the hotel to the restaurant because there was very limited parking on the mountain. There was an extended cocktail hour (more like 3 hours) with endless passed hors d'oeuvres, dinner was rack of lamb or lobster tail, fine wines, open bar throughout the night, top shelf brands, live band, etc. The event ran from about 2pm till midnight and there were about 150 guests. Then, back at the hotel there was an after party just in case anyone was still vaguely sober.
I can't imagine how much that wedding cost.
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I have a nephew who married a woman from a wealthy family. The wedding venue was a very upscale farm-to-table restaurant on the top of a mountain in a very expensive area. They hired buses to run all day long from the hotel to the restaurant because there was very limited parking on the mountain. There was an extended cocktail hour (more like 3 hours) with endless passed hors d'oeuvres, dinner was rack of lamb or lobster tail, fine wines, open bar throughout the night, top shelf brands, live band, etc. The event ran from about 2pm till midnight and there were about 150 guests. Then, back at the hotel there was an after party just in case anyone was still vaguely sober.
I can't imagine how much that wedding cost.
Just an educated guess, but I"m going with ~$30,000 ($200/head) for that kind of reception, but depends a lot on the venue.
Might be just me, but I have a hard time faulting people who have the means for throwing such a shin-dig. I mean, if that's what they value and they have th means to pay for it, who am I to judge?
What bothers me more is people who clearly cannot afford their fairy-tale wedding.
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Wedding story #3. I was a grad student living with a law student when she got engaged. Her student loans exceeded $180k yet she wanted this elaborate wedding with ~150 people. She took out an extra loan to pay for it and her single mother remortgaged her house to assist. It was a lovely evening but final costs were close to $40k.
We've drifted apart and she now works for a law firm but recently she joked that even with her extended repayment plan her 'brain' costs more each month than the mortgage on their (not cheap) home. I don't think she's had a vacation since her honeymoon.
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As an Indian, I find it somewhat amusing that $30k is considered a lot of money for a wedding. Indians tend to spend considerably more, this article says $250k, but I think that is an insane exaggeration.
http://www.startribune.com/hotels-pursue-traditional-indian-weddings/381182541/
Also, I find it amusing to the lady that was quoted extensively in the article.
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I will probably be attending a very restrained wedding later this month. My immigrant godfather was certainly a mustachian before it was cool. Paid off his first house in about six years, converted it to a rental for the last 20. Fixes his cars himself, a lot like the "drive your cars for free" guy.
This will be his younger daughter. Older daughter had a ceremony in a free pavillon, restaurant reception for 24 people. Whole thing could have been under $1,000 (it helped that she made her own jewelry). Younger daughter's ceremony will be in the same site.
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My daughter was a wedding planner in a "money area" of Michigan. They put the whole things together for the families; invitations, photography, the wedding, the reception, rehearsal dinner, facilities, tents, bands, flowers, limos, dining,etc .... you name it, they were pretty first class events. She said the average wedding they did was $150K, and they did one over $600K.
Seems insane, but they had plenty of steady business.
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I am so glad I had my wedding at my families campground(where there have been quite a few other people married there). We provided campers for all of our family to stay in and had an epic party and European honeymoon for about $6000. It was a ton of work for us though! We could have easily spent a ton more by having catered food or a bartender or things like that.
On the other hand I went to a wedding of a college friend a couple months ago and it was a huge thing. With the reception at a hotel downtown overlooking the whole town. The whole wedding was very nice but it had to have been crazy expensive and the party was definitely not as fun. Everyone was worried about looking nice!
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I met a wedding planner on a plane once. She averaged 6 wedding a years. Was paid 10% of the cost of the entire wedding. Her average wedding was no less than $100k. She averaged $75k/year in earnings for 6 or so weddings.
In college, I went to my friend Pat's wedding. He married the only daughter of a family of 6. She had 3 brothers. The wedding was at a country club, with a live band, and very good food. I estimate that it was a $35k USD wedding.
Just last year I attended my friends wedding. The grooms father has a high income. The venue overlooked a river. There were about 200 guest. Top shelf liquor and wines available all night. Appetizers and hors d'oeuvre were being served prior to the meal, by catered waiters/waitresses everywhere you looked. Salmon and lamb was served as the main entree with vegetarian options available of course. A live band that cost $4,500 that played for 2 or 3 hours. The bride and groom are both musicians, and the groom popped in for a song and completely shredded the guitar solo. It was awesome.
There was a candy table, replete with everyone's favorite candies.
There was a photographer taking polaroid snapshots of all the couples and groups of friends that later ended up in photo book for the bride and groom to peruse later.
Their was a cheese/desert table for after dinner that was so overstocked, it was outrageous, but inline with the rest of the evening.
The couple are very frugal. Their wedding bands came from second hand stores, and someone made her dress. However, her dad and even more so his parents are NOT frugal, and they paid for the wedding. There were some guests invited that the bride and groom didn't even know (his dads friends). They didn't mind, it was a roaring party!
They told me the wedding cost about $45k Canadian.
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My own wedding was about $10k. We rented a venue in Seattle, that overlooked some water. Parking was provided as part of the venue. Their was a grand piano on site. We paid a college buddy of my to play it for a couple hours. We paid my wife's aunt to cater the wedding (her previous career). My sister made the cake for us and cupcakes for all the guests. I invited a friend I met in Australia, that lives in Edmonton, Alberta Canada to bartend my wedding. He came, and the tip jar paid his way. I paid a friend to DJ the event. My best friend performed the ceremony. My groomsmen spent $60 on their outfits. Her bridesmaids voluntarily spent a bit more, against my wifes wishes!
We had a damn good time at the wedding. My mom told me "I've never had so much fun in my entire life". That one comment means more than anything!
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I have a nephew who married a woman from a wealthy family. The wedding venue was a very upscale farm-to-table restaurant on the top of a mountain in a very expensive area. They hired buses to run all day long from the hotel to the restaurant because there was very limited parking on the mountain. There was an extended cocktail hour (more like 3 hours) with endless passed hors d'oeuvres, dinner was rack of lamb or lobster tail, fine wines, open bar throughout the night, top shelf brands, live band, etc. The event ran from about 2pm till midnight and there were about 150 guests. Then, back at the hotel there was an after party just in case anyone was still vaguely sober.
I can't imagine how much that wedding cost.
Just an educated guess, but I"m going with ~$30,000 ($200/head) for that kind of reception, but depends a lot on the venue.
I would bet that started at more like the $150k price Fishindude mentions for his daughter's "money area" events, $200/head is more like the starting price for a wedding in an ordinary mid-scale hotel with catering and open bar for an hour with a DJ.
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There is definitely a link between spending on a wedding and success of the marriage. The two largest weddings I've attended (both 150+ people) ended in divorce. People that are more materialistic, shallow and harder to please tend to want/need a big, expensive, unique wedding.
Here's some data I googled on wedding spending vs divorce likelihood.
(https://20somethingfinance.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/how-much-should-you-spend-on-wedding-e1413662572885.png)
Source: https://20somethingfinance.com/wedding-expenses-and-marriage-success/ (https://20somethingfinance.com/wedding-expenses-and-marriage-success/)
That's one possibility, my other guess is that people who in their hearts know they don't really love the other person are more likely to overcompensate with massive spending to "prove" how happy they are.
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Well, if this is a bitchy forum about weddings...
The worst wedding was the one I was never invited to. My husband's cousin (we don't have a large family, so first cousins are pretty close and grew up together).
They had a small-ish ceremony with 40 guests in a park, elegant theme, but with picnic blankets, cupcakes, wine and cheese after.
The bitchy part is that they were so cheap, they did not rent/bring chairs for the elderly grandparents (oversight or cheap?). AND..
Would it have been too much to invite 20 more people to stand around, witness their vows, and congratulate them?! hmfph. For the record, this cousin was invited to my smallish wedding years before.
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UGH I HATE WEDDINGS!!
Mostly I stopped going to as many as I could- if they weren't family, I said no.
My brother intended to have his wedding reception at his house to "save money", but for some reason they thought they could cram 150 people into his small backyard. I think they were also going to have a 12-piece band and full catering. I'm so thankful that this engagement was called off because this wedding would have been a logistical disaster.
My mom got remarried at 49 and I disagreed with a lot of the choices she made, but I was in my senior year at college and wasn't involved.
My favorite weddings are when I'm at the beach. During the summer I take a beach yoga class on weekend mornings. One Saturday there was a wedding right next to us. The yoga teacher stopped and had us face the procession when the bride and groom were leaving. That was definitely my favorite wedding.
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I have little tolerance or sympathy for brides who treat their closest friends like unpaid labor for their wedding day weekend. Apparently that's become kosher recently.
In the aforementioned wedding, my wife (then fiancée) was one of the bridesmaids. She had to pay for her own flight, lodging, dress and outfit, yet she was given no say or choice in any of those (except declining to go entirely). SHe had to go 5 days in advance of the wedding, and every friggen day was filled with 'activities' that were basically errands. One day she was sent to the florist to pick up a sample bouquet for the bride to approve of. She then had to drive back (across town in a city she didn't know in her rental car) to express to the florist how exactly the flowers should be different (using vague terms like 'more open and fluid').
Another wedding my parents went to was for the daughter of a two polish immigrants. It was a very large (~200 person) sit-down fancy reception, but the ceremony was a closed-to-family affair in a Orthodox church (no objections there either). What made it memorable though was that all the guests were at the reception awaiting the newly married couple and their families. And they waited. And they waited (all the while drinking lots of really good booze). About an hour after the starting time the bride's family walked in and you could see something was horribly amiss. The took the microphone and gave a very nice speech thanking all of her friends for coming and supporting her, and welcomed everyone to stay as long as they wanted because the food was already paid for but she didn't get married because her (now) ex cheated on her with the stripped at his bachelor party the night before. awkward!
I had friends who had a wedding scheduled. The guy went away on his guys camping trip prior to the wedding (a month or so). Except he was "camping" with a girl he met on the internet.
So...they postponed the wedding till the following year. Okay. They still went on the honeymoon!
(They are still married 25 years later, so there is that.)
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I have a nephew who married a woman from a wealthy family. The wedding venue was a very upscale farm-to-table restaurant on the top of a mountain in a very expensive area. They hired buses to run all day long from the hotel to the restaurant because there was very limited parking on the mountain. There was an extended cocktail hour (more like 3 hours) with endless passed hors d'oeuvres, dinner was rack of lamb or lobster tail, fine wines, open bar throughout the night, top shelf brands, live band, etc. The event ran from about 2pm till midnight and there were about 150 guests. Then, back at the hotel there was an after party just in case anyone was still vaguely sober.
I can't imagine how much that wedding cost.
Just an educated guess, but I"m going with ~$30,000 ($200/head) for that kind of reception, but depends a lot on the venue.
I would bet that started at more like the $150k price Fishindude mentions for his daughter's "money area" events, $200/head is more like the starting price for a wedding in an ordinary mid-scale hotel with catering and open bar for an hour with a DJ.
Yup.
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The couple are very frugal. Their wedding bands came from second hand stores, and someone made her dress. However, her dad and even more so his parents are NOT frugal, and they paid for the wedding. There were some guests invited that the bride and groom didn't even know (his dads friends). They didn't mind, it was a roaring party!
This was the case with my cousin. Neither he nor his fiancee wanted a huge fancy wedding, but she was the first of three daughters to get married, and her parents had a huge amount of money earmarked for her wedding. So they went along with it. 200+ people at the Milwaukee Art Museum. Open bar, hors d'oeuvres, 4 course dinner, dancing after, huge cake. But when the parents are paying, you can't really say no. That said, it was a gorgeous venue and a beautiful ceremony, and they were both deliriously happy. They still are, as far as I know. Oh, and it was featured in a bridal magazine, so yeah, fancy shmancy.
I think our wedding was ~$6000 (not counting the dinner cruise which was supposed to be just a few people and fairly inexpensive--but then my dad invited everyone and offered to pay). $1500 for clothes (mine and his)/accessories/hair, $2000 for rings, $1000 for photography, and the rest for marriage license, park permit, insurance, rentals (including bouncy castle in the shape of a church, because we're classy like that), cake, decorations, etc. Fun note, my photographer was up-and-coming. I could never afford her now. She does celebrity destination weddings these days.
We never had a honeymoon though. Maybe for our 5th anniversary in 2019 we'll get around to it.
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I feel ya. Once my friends and cousisns hit their 30s, the wedding invites started rolling in. Soooo maaaany weddings. Sheesh.
My mom's family is full of parting people, so most of the weddings from that side of the family have been great fun, regardless of size or expense. One of my favorites was BYOB and used a neighbor's barn for the reception. It was probably the most frugal, and the most fun, reception I've been to. On the other hand, I half think one set of siblings had a competition on who could throw the spendiest/flashiest partytime reception. *rollls eyes* They were fun, though. LOTS of wine was provided and consumed, which was fine with me.
The wedding I've been the most annoyed by was fairly recent. The couple in question are lower income and spendypants folks. They can barely make their mortgage payment. Yet, thanks to an inheritance and hugely generous gifts from family and friends, they had a wedding + reception that probably cost us all a total of $15K, with bride and groom on the hook for $7K of that. I was, and still am, amazed at how their community of people came together to pull it off. That part is heart warming. Not heartwarming is having listened to this couple moan about how broke they are for years, both before and after this ridiculously elaborate party. Y'all. If you're stretching to make your mortgage payment, have an effing cake and punch reception, not a full damn dinner + open bar + all the space for drunk party guests to pass out.
Bah, humbug.
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On this topic, I haven't been to a wedding in a few years but I have one coming up. What is the standard amount that mustachians are giving as a wedding gift these days? It seems like a check or cash is pretty common around here. In my poorer past, I've never given more than $100 (for two), but the interweb indicates that this may have been offensively low. We live in a medium COL city, if that makes a difference.
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That is a good question. I don't know because I don't compare notes, but we usually give around $100 for gifts like weddings and graduations. We are in a HCOL area and we are both professionals, so we could be more generous if we felt it was appropriate. I'm interested in what others say.
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On this topic, I haven't been to a wedding in a few years but I have one coming up. What is the standard amount that mustachians are giving as a wedding gift these days? It seems like a check or cash is pretty common around here. In my poorer past, I've never given more than $100 (for two), but the interweb indicates that this may have been offensively low. We live in a medium COL city, if that makes a difference.
$100-200 seems pretty normal. That's what we got after our wedding (we even asked for no gifts, but social mores are stronger I guess). You can probably get away with no gift if you have a skill to donate to the wedding (photography, cake,DJ, etc.).
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Spend what you think is appropriate based on the couple, not the area or cost of living or your individual income. For many couples there's no gift requirement or expectation at all - while others might find it rude. The 'rule of thumb' about it being > the cost of your dinner is a myth. According to Emily Post its one gift per nuclear family, sent preferably on or before the day of the wedding.
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I have a nephew who married a woman from a wealthy family. The wedding venue was a very upscale farm-to-table restaurant on the top of a mountain in a very expensive area. They hired buses to run all day long from the hotel to the restaurant because there was very limited parking on the mountain. There was an extended cocktail hour (more like 3 hours) with endless passed hors d'oeuvres, dinner was rack of lamb or lobster tail, fine wines, open bar throughout the night, top shelf brands, live band, etc. The event ran from about 2pm till midnight and there were about 150 guests. Then, back at the hotel there was an after party just in case anyone was still vaguely sober.
I can't imagine how much that wedding cost.
Just an educated guess, but I"m going with ~$30,000 ($200/head) for that kind of reception, but depends a lot on the venue.
I would bet that started at more like the $150k price Fishindude mentions for his daughter's "money area" events, $200/head is more like the starting price for a wedding in an ordinary mid-scale hotel with catering and open bar for an hour with a DJ.
Yup.
Yes, it was one hell of a lot more than $30K. I've been to plenty of $30K weddings and they aren't even all that memorable.
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Ours was $14k ten years ago. It was more than I wanted to spend, but given that we were in the bay area it could have been much worse. A good friend gave us a half price deal on his photography services, but used them to bring in a second photographer (i.e. we got 2x for 1/2). One of our guests was also a photographer who worked occasionally with him, so rather than sit around feeling useless he joined in. So we have three good photographers who we got along with great, and just got a DVD full of the pictures at the end (none of those per print charges).
A few months later the brother in-law got married. Their whole fraternity/sorority seemed to have been recruited as groomsmen/bridesmaids. It was open bar, at a country club, with 3 bar-tenders hoofing it the whole time. There was a signature drink from the ice sculpture shot luge. An antique Rolls Royce was rented just to drive the bride 300' from the building to the aisle. We figure their bar tab was more than our entire wedding. They divorced after 2 years.
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Awesome stories! I am loving the anonymous internet bitching.
Reading these makes me realize - I think what really depresses me is the weddings that cost a bomb but are just one big instagram opportunity.
I've been to 2 weddings that I really hated, and they were so boring, full of 'rules', micro-managed by the bride, everything staged to look good on facebook (one of these weddings, there was a rule that we weren't allowed to post any photos on facebook on the day. Fair enough I thought. Until the bride posted the first professional snaps on facebook. On the day. I guess she just had to make sure it was PERFECT).
I've been to a few weddings that I absolutely loved, because they were actually fun, and full of people having a genuinely brilliant time, with a bride and groom who looked absolutely thrilled with the entire day. Some of these were probably quite spendy. But they seemed like, y'know, real events, based on real feelings. So fair play to them.
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Spend what you think is appropriate based on the couple, not the area or cost of living or your individual income. For many couples there's no gift requirement or expectation at all - while others might find it rude. The 'rule of thumb' about it being > the cost of your dinner is a myth. According to Emily Post its one gift per nuclear family, sent preferably on or before the day of the wedding.
I have no idea what they expect. They are fairly well off but a gracious couple who wouldn't hold gift giving against anyone (though probably somewhat surprised not to get anything, as most people would).
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My biggest loser moment ever was because of a wedding, and it wasn't even mine. I've told so many snarky stories about other people, it's high time I tell one on myself. I can't remember if I've mentioned it on this forum or not.
My circle of friends included a young couple I'll call Bride and Groom. We'd cross paths from time to time since we had some hobbies and interests in common, and I suppose I was closer with Bride, although since I'd been spending a lot of time at work and pursuing various hobbies our interaction had been mostly online. They got engaged, and by an odd coincidence our paths crossed again immediately after their engagement. I was one of the first people they told. The wedding was going to be one of those small, family-only things in the groom's city, but afterwards they planned a modest reception in town. They hadn't yet set a precise date but had a date range in mind within the month of July.
It's my custom, when friends of mine get married, to offer something from my kitchen or my workroom. Most of my friends prefer to receive a gift of wine. I've supplied the wine for a good number of wedding receptions, if it's something the happy couple wants. It's a great deal for me: with a kit that generally costs less than $75, I can make two and a half cases of something fairly tasty complete with custom labels. If they ordered something similar online, the going rate would be easily $450. It's the kind of gift that doesn't cost me a lot but that can help a frugal couple really keep their wedding expenses low while providing something very nice for their guests. Making wine is not an overnight process. Throughout the process, which takes several months, I have to check in with the happy couple a few times to make sure the variety is what they're expecting and to let them taste some of what I'm making from a previous batch. I even check to make sure the custom labels I print up harmonize with the decorations and colors the bride has in mind. There's a lot of communication involved and the gift is not a surprise. For non-drinking friends or people who would rather receive something besides wine, I give a different gift.
Anyway, I made the wine up, labels and all, and delivered it to the bride's home a little more than a month before the wedding, with instructions to let it finish aging at least a month. There was enough wine to cover the estimated head count, but the invitations had not yet been sent out for the reception. This didn't strike me as odd since it was too soon to send out the official invitations. So I waited and got busy with other things. But then something weird happened... I saw reception photos on social media including a shout-out to me thanking me for the wine. I was never invited to the reception, but those fuckers used the wine.
It turns out that I was excluded due to the actions of two people I hadn't seen in person for years. A couple years before getting married, Bride was in a relationship that ended very, very badly and there was an ongoing legal drama in which her ex kind of subpoenaed me. I thought the entire bad scene was well in the past, but a few months before the wedding, well before I delivered the wine, Bride's ex started going out with an ex-girlfriend of mine... someone I'd dated for a few months several years previously but crossed paths with two or three times a year. Anyway, since Bride's ex was dating my ex-girlfriend, apparently I was somehow spying on the bride or some happy horseshit, so I got crossed off the invitation list. I'd have appreciated knowing about that before delivering the wine.
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If a bride-to-be said the day she got engaged, "Okay. The No.1 rule of my wedding and related events - of which there will be none beyond a small rehearsal dinner - is that nothing will be posted on social media by anyone, including me," that would solve most wedding drama and mercifully kill the wedding industry arms race.
And if either of my sons (now 14 and 11) comes across such a young lady 15-25 years from now, they will be extremely lucky.
Come to think of it, banning social media would solve a lot of things.
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My biggest loser moment ever was because of a wedding, and it wasn't even mine. I've told so many snarky stories about other people, it's high time I tell one on myself. I can't remember if I've mentioned it on this forum or not.
My circle of friends included a young couple I'll call Bride and Groom. We'd cross paths from time to time since we had some hobbies and interests in common, and I suppose I was closer with Bride, although since I'd been spending a lot of time at work and pursuing various hobbies our interaction had been mostly online. They got engaged, and by an odd coincidence our paths crossed again immediately after their engagement. I was one of the first people they told. The wedding was going to be one of those small, family-only things in the groom's city, but afterwards they planned a modest reception in town. They hadn't yet set a precise date but had a date range in mind within the month of July.
It's my custom, when friends of mine get married, to offer something from my kitchen or my workroom. Most of my friends prefer to receive a gift of wine. I've supplied the wine for a good number of wedding receptions, if it's something the happy couple wants. It's a great deal for me: with a kit that generally costs less than $75, I can make two and a half cases of something fairly tasty complete with custom labels. If they ordered something similar online, the going rate would be easily $450. It's the kind of gift that doesn't cost me a lot but that can help a frugal couple really keep their wedding expenses low while providing something very nice for their guests. Making wine is not an overnight process. Throughout the process, which takes several months, I have to check in with the happy couple a few times to make sure the variety is what they're expecting and to let them taste some of what I'm making from a previous batch. I even check to make sure the custom labels I print up harmonize with the decorations and colors the bride has in mind. There's a lot of communication involved and the gift is not a surprise. For non-drinking friends or people who would rather receive something besides wine, I give a different gift.
Anyway, I made the wine up, labels and all, and delivered it to the bride's home a little more than a month before the wedding, with instructions to let it finish aging at least a month. There was enough wine to cover the estimated head count, but the invitations had not yet been sent out for the reception. This didn't strike me as odd since it was too soon to send out the official invitations. So I waited and got busy with other things. But then something weird happened... I saw reception photos on social media including a shout-out to me thanking me for the wine. I was never invited to the reception, but those fuckers used the wine.
It turns out that I was excluded due to the actions of two people I hadn't seen in person for years. A couple years before getting married, Bride was in a relationship that ended very, very badly and there was an ongoing legal drama in which her ex kind of subpoenaed me. I thought the entire bad scene was well in the past, but a few months before the wedding, well before I delivered the wine, Bride's ex started going out with an ex-girlfriend of mine... someone I'd dated for a few months several years previously but crossed paths with two or three times a year. Anyway, since Bride's ex was dating my ex-girlfriend, apparently I was somehow spying on the bride or some happy horseshit, so I got crossed off the invitation list. I'd have appreciated knowing about that before delivering the wine.
Woah. That is AWFUL behaviour from the bride and the groom. So they're upset enough to cross you off their invitation list .. but they're happy to take wine from the person they somehow believe is 'spying' on them. Hope they enjoy their life of made-up drama together.
'Happy horseshit' though is a great phrase which I now intend to use today and work somehow.
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My biggest loser moment ever was because of a wedding, and it wasn't even mine. I've told so many snarky stories about other people, it's high time I tell one on myself. I can't remember if I've mentioned it on this forum or not.
My circle of friends included a young couple I'll call Bride and Groom. We'd cross paths from time to time since we had some hobbies and interests in common, and I suppose I was closer with Bride, although since I'd been spending a lot of time at work and pursuing various hobbies our interaction had been mostly online. They got engaged, and by an odd coincidence our paths crossed again immediately after their engagement. I was one of the first people they told. The wedding was going to be one of those small, family-only things in the groom's city, but afterwards they planned a modest reception in town. They hadn't yet set a precise date but had a date range in mind within the month of July.
It's my custom, when friends of mine get married, to offer something from my kitchen or my workroom. Most of my friends prefer to receive a gift of wine. I've supplied the wine for a good number of wedding receptions, if it's something the happy couple wants. It's a great deal for me: with a kit that generally costs less than $75, I can make two and a half cases of something fairly tasty complete with custom labels. If they ordered something similar online, the going rate would be easily $450. It's the kind of gift that doesn't cost me a lot but that can help a frugal couple really keep their wedding expenses low while providing something very nice for their guests. Making wine is not an overnight process. Throughout the process, which takes several months, I have to check in with the happy couple a few times to make sure the variety is what they're expecting and to let them taste some of what I'm making from a previous batch. I even check to make sure the custom labels I print up harmonize with the decorations and colors the bride has in mind. There's a lot of communication involved and the gift is not a surprise. For non-drinking friends or people who would rather receive something besides wine, I give a different gift.
Anyway, I made the wine up, labels and all, and delivered it to the bride's home a little more than a month before the wedding, with instructions to let it finish aging at least a month. There was enough wine to cover the estimated head count, but the invitations had not yet been sent out for the reception. This didn't strike me as odd since it was too soon to send out the official invitations. So I waited and got busy with other things. But then something weird happened... I saw reception photos on social media including a shout-out to me thanking me for the wine. I was never invited to the reception, but those fuckers used the wine.
It turns out that I was excluded due to the actions of two people I hadn't seen in person for years. A couple years before getting married, Bride was in a relationship that ended very, very badly and there was an ongoing legal drama in which her ex kind of subpoenaed me. I thought the entire bad scene was well in the past, but a few months before the wedding, well before I delivered the wine, Bride's ex started going out with an ex-girlfriend of mine... someone I'd dated for a few months several years previously but crossed paths with two or three times a year. Anyway, since Bride's ex was dating my ex-girlfriend, apparently I was somehow spying on the bride or some happy horseshit, so I got crossed off the invitation list. I'd have appreciated knowing about that before delivering the wine.
Woah. That is AWFUL behaviour from the bride and the groom. So they're upset enough to cross you off their invitation list .. but they're happy to take wine from the person they somehow believe is 'spying' on them. Hope they enjoy their life of made-up drama together.
'Happy horseshit' though is a great phrase which I now intend to use today and work somehow.
*use at work.
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I used to film weddings as a side hustle. From my experience the lower cost ones tended to be the most fun.
I have noticed that. And people seem to be more genuinely happy!
Yup. Probably because they aren't worried about getting their money's (monies?) worth out of they $30K spent.
I think I've had it pretty lucky. All the weddings I've been to have been pretty low key (but over the years I've culled a lot of ugly people out of my life, that might be why). My older sisters wedding was at the Moose Lodge her husband's parents belong to and it was pot-luck style. I was the only bridesmaid/maid of honor. One of my best photos was me in my SO's fedora..dancing under the giant moose head. It is not something I'll ever forget. We all had a blast.
All the weddings save maybe one were reasonable cost events and alot of fun. One or two had the reception at the church so there was definitely no booze. Fun in its own way. The standout was expensive and wild and promising to get even more so. We congratulated the bride and groom after the meal and went back to hotel b/c we had two small kids and it wasn't the place for us (them). ;)
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I had friends who had a wedding scheduled. The guy went away on his guys camping trip prior to the wedding (a month or so). Except he was "camping" with a girl he met on the internet.
So...they postponed the wedding till the following year. Okay. They still went on the honeymoon!
(They are still married 25 years later, so there is that.)
So the guy met some girl on the internet in 1991? Impressive. Was she some kind of computer nerd?
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My biggest loser moment ever was because of a wedding, and it wasn't even mine. I've told so many snarky stories about other people, it's high time I tell one on myself. I can't remember if I've mentioned it on this forum or not.
My circle of friends included a young couple I'll call Bride and Groom. We'd cross paths from time to time since we had some hobbies and interests in common, and I suppose I was closer with Bride, although since I'd been spending a lot of time at work and pursuing various hobbies our interaction had been mostly online. They got engaged, and by an odd coincidence our paths crossed again immediately after their engagement. I was one of the first people they told. The wedding was going to be one of those small, family-only things in the groom's city, but afterwards they planned a modest reception in town. They hadn't yet set a precise date but had a date range in mind within the month of July.
It's my custom, when friends of mine get married, to offer something from my kitchen or my workroom. Most of my friends prefer to receive a gift of wine. I've supplied the wine for a good number of wedding receptions, if it's something the happy couple wants. It's a great deal for me: with a kit that generally costs less than $75, I can make two and a half cases of something fairly tasty complete with custom labels. If they ordered something similar online, the going rate would be easily $450. It's the kind of gift that doesn't cost me a lot but that can help a frugal couple really keep their wedding expenses low while providing something very nice for their guests. Making wine is not an overnight process. Throughout the process, which takes several months, I have to check in with the happy couple a few times to make sure the variety is what they're expecting and to let them taste some of what I'm making from a previous batch. I even check to make sure the custom labels I print up harmonize with the decorations and colors the bride has in mind. There's a lot of communication involved and the gift is not a surprise. For non-drinking friends or people who would rather receive something besides wine, I give a different gift.
Anyway, I made the wine up, labels and all, and delivered it to the bride's home a little more than a month before the wedding, with instructions to let it finish aging at least a month. There was enough wine to cover the estimated head count, but the invitations had not yet been sent out for the reception. This didn't strike me as odd since it was too soon to send out the official invitations. So I waited and got busy with other things. But then something weird happened... I saw reception photos on social media including a shout-out to me thanking me for the wine. I was never invited to the reception, but those fuckers used the wine.
It turns out that I was excluded due to the actions of two people I hadn't seen in person for years. A couple years before getting married, Bride was in a relationship that ended very, very badly and there was an ongoing legal drama in which her ex kind of subpoenaed me. I thought the entire bad scene was well in the past, but a few months before the wedding, well before I delivered the wine, Bride's ex started going out with an ex-girlfriend of mine... someone I'd dated for a few months several years previously but crossed paths with two or three times a year. Anyway, since Bride's ex was dating my ex-girlfriend, apparently I was somehow spying on the bride or some happy horseshit, so I got crossed off the invitation list. I'd have appreciated knowing about that before delivering the wine.
How rude and disrespectful behaviour! I am appalled that "friends" can act like that.
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Looks like weddings are quite cheap in the US. In India as previously said these are a big fancy affair and is mostly run by the parents if like us the bride and groom don't want to throw a big bash of 1000 people.
All I had wanted was no more than 200 people (that is rare in our family and culture in general) which thankfully got entertained. Thee wedding meant more to our families than it did to us. We would have been happy just signing papers.
However we ended up married with over 20K spent on our parent's part and almost everybody unhappy with the other person.
We then proceeded to take a honeymoon for under 1000$ of our own money. I still have bags full of clothes I'll never wear (but I should have). Atleast Mr. S got some shirts that he did use and which eventually saved us quite a bit of money.
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The costs of a wedding go far beyond what the venue costs. I had a fancy pants wedding. Wife's parents paid for the venue and the dress, we picked up the rest.
Wedding alone:
Venue: circa $30,000 - 150 people - $175/head, plus tax, plus tip
Band: $8,000
Flowers: $3,000
Photographer: $4500
Invitations: $800
Save the dates: $200
Dress: $1500
Fancy bride shoes you wear once: $300
Bride's hair and makeup: $300
Tux rental: $200
Wedding Favors: $750
Dance lessons: $300 (four 1 hour sessions)
Thank you cards: $200
Stamps: $300
Printed menus: $150
Programs: $150
Minister: $400 donation
Groomsmen gifts: $350
Bridesmaids gifts: $350
Rings: $1100
This doesn't include the engagement party and rehearsal dinner my parents had for us. I'm sure that was several $1000 on top.
BTW we had a blast and it was worth every penny.
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I had friends who had a wedding scheduled. The guy went away on his guys camping trip prior to the wedding (a month or so). Except he was "camping" with a girl he met on the internet.
So...they postponed the wedding till the following year. Okay. They still went on the honeymoon!
(They are still married 25 years later, so there is that.)
So the guy met some girl on the internet in 1991? Impressive. Was she some kind of computer nerd?
Imagine the ASCII pictures they exchanged... ;)
Edit: missed an "I" on ascii
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Went to a wedding at The Plaza in New York City. Not sure how much the wedding itself cost, but definitely above $250k. The venue of course is crazy expensive, there was a live band (not a DJ...an actual band), multiple days of open bar events, pro photographer for multiple days, etc. Ugh.
I honestly just want to go to the court house one day but the future in-laws would NOT approve.
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How rude and disrespectful behaviour! I am appalled that "friends" can act like that.
It's probably because enemies don't get the opportunity.
I've avoided crossing paths with both Bride and Groom since then although they show up in my social media news feeds and we've exchanged comments on current events.
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I had friends who had a wedding scheduled. The guy went away on his guys camping trip prior to the wedding (a month or so). Except he was "camping" with a girl he met on the internet.
So...they postponed the wedding till the following year. Okay. They still went on the honeymoon!
(They are still married 25 years later, so there is that.)
So the guy met some girl on the internet in 1991? Impressive. Was she some kind of computer nerd?
She must have been. He was for sure (we are engineers). The (future) wife didn't exactly offer up any details on her personality. I mean, he drove from VA to FL to meet her.
Does anyone here besides me remember "the internet" from back then? Mostly just email? I still remember my first email address.
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@TheGrimSqueaker
That is horrible. Those people should have at least had the courtesy to have a conversation with you.
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I had the cheapest wedding out of anyone I've ever met. Got married at the courthouse. Invited only close friends and told them to just wear business casual clothes (wife and I did the same) and keep the gifts under $20 (side benefit is that none of my friends expect a fancy present from me either at their weddings!). College professor who was very close to me paid for the reception at a local restaurant (OK, this part is sorta cheating) and friends mom baked us the wedding cake for free. Bought two simple gold bands at pawn shop for gold spot price. Had parents / friends send me their photos from the wedding taken via cell phones.
Total out of pocket wedding costs:
$10 wedding certificate from court
~$200 for two gold wedding rings
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I've gone to a bunch of weddings where the cost is reasonable (15k-20k) but most of them were paid by the parents and the bride and groom were pretty decent and didn't have any weird rules. That said, there was one wedding I attended that had a Bridezilla and it left such a bad taste that I've started declining invites if I even suspected the bride would be a Bridezilla. Too much drama for a day and too many people hurt!
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I had friends who had a wedding scheduled. The guy went away on his guys camping trip prior to the wedding (a month or so). Except he was "camping" with a girl he met on the internet.
So...they postponed the wedding till the following year. Okay. They still went on the honeymoon!
(They are still married 25 years later, so there is that.)
So the guy met some girl on the internet in 1991? Impressive. Was she some kind of computer nerd?
She must have been. He was for sure (we are engineers). The (future) wife didn't exactly offer up any details on her personality. I mean, he drove from VA to FL to meet her.
Does anyone here besides me remember "the internet" from back then? Mostly just email? I still remember my first email address.
Okay, folks, my sister had her first on-line date (meet up) in 1985. She is definitely NOT a nerd or techno-phile. However, if you had access to a computer and/ or BBS / Modem, chatting with people online was not that much different from texting today -- everyone does it because it is accessible. In fact, I bet that she is the typical "iphone only" type gadget girl now, that rarely uses a PC, went into nursing, etc.
We had access to the computer because my dad loves tech, and he used it to do his management costing reports from home to spend more time with us after hours. For the record, it was an Apple IIe.
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Two more stories (I can't help myself) but this time about cheap weddings:
My favorite:
When my brother got married it cost the bride and groom, I think, about £300. His wife had a lot of family and friends-of-family and they had this place on a beach where they stored props for a theatre company (no really). Their wedding present to the couple was to decorate this place and provide a buffet. There seemed to be loads of people involved, so they pulled off a fantastic night. The place was decorated with dark fabric covered in silver stars, candles everywhere, fairy lights, and later on there was another nearbye building with lots of sofas and wood-burning stoves where we all stayed up chatting and eventually fell asleep. My parents paid for a pub meal after the ceremony and before the party. It was BRILLIANT. Their wedding rings cost £7. My sister-in-law made her own dress.
The worst:
For a start, the couple bitched about how expensive weddings are for years beforehand, so I assumed they were going to 1. have a tiny wedding, or 2.not have one at all. But no, they decided to have a big white wedding with all the trimmings, but just made is painfully obvious that they resented how much it was costing them. It was on a farm but there was no heating in the venue, so it was flippin freezing. There was a cold buffet but not enough food for everyone. The alcohol ran out pretty quickly (a mortal sin at a Scottish wedding). But the bride had the usual big white meringue dress which I assume cost quite a lot. Flowers, photographer, all the shit that really costs money.
It was kind of miserable to attend as a guest, and I really wished they'd stopped moaning about the expense and just had a smaller wedding, maybe with heating, and enough food, or, maybe the same amount of food but less guests. I really wouldn't have minded if my invitation got lost in the post.
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@TheGrimSqueaker
That is horrible. Those people should have at least had the courtesy to have a conversation with you.
It would have taken more than courtesy. It would have required a willingness to own their behavior and decision-making, to address the reasons for the exclusion, and to accept the fallout from the decision (no wine, or possibly having to pay for the cost of materials) in a mature way.
I'm trying to imagine how the conversation would go.
"Hey, Grim, your ex is dating my ex. Are you part of a large-scale conspiracy to undermine my happiness?"
"Yo, Squeak. Because we heard a rumor about a two people you haven't seen in ages, we don't want you to come to the reception."
"Hail, O Exalted Royal Rubber-Duck. Some stuff is going on, my bride-to-be is upset because of it, and the upshot is that we have to entertain you separately instead of at the reception."
"Heads up, GrimSqueaker: your booze is welcome here but you're not."
I suppose any of these non-passive-aggressive approaches would have led to a discussion and maybe a solution, possibly even with no hard feelings. Instead, they chose to pee on my leg and tell me it was raining. That's not a way to preserve the relationship, but to them a couple cases of wine was more important.
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Hey Squeak,
This is an off-topic question, but what's your policy on cutting people off? I've got a few friend-type relationships in my life that are probably going to terminate fairly shortly, and I think it's probably for the best, but it's making me think about what circumstances are appropriate for letting a relationship go versus trying to confront & clear the air. What do you think?
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@TheGrimSqueaker
That is horrible. Those people should have at least had the courtesy to have a conversation with you.
It would have taken more than courtesy. It would have required a willingness to own their behavior and decision-making, to address the reasons for the exclusion, and to accept the fallout from the decision (no wine, or possibly having to pay for the cost of materials) in a mature way.
I'm trying to imagine how the conversation would go.
"Hey, Grim, your ex is dating my ex. Are you part of a large-scale conspiracy to undermine my happiness?"
"Yo, Squeak. Because we heard a rumor about a two people you haven't seen in ages, we don't want you to come to the reception."
"Hail, O Exalted Royal Rubber-Duck. Some stuff is going on, my bride-to-be is upset because of it, and the upshot is that we have to entertain you separately instead of at the reception."
"Heads up, GrimSqueaker: your booze is welcome here but you're not."
I suppose any of these non-passive-aggressive approaches would have led to a discussion and maybe a solution, possibly even with no hard feelings. Instead, they chose to pee on my leg and tell me it was raining. That's not a way to preserve the relationship, but to them a couple cases of wine was more important.
Maybe, just for fun, you can tap them for something that you need that's in their wheelhouse / line of work, for a real or made-up special occasion of yours, to which they may or may not be invited? Just to see their reaction.
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This was 30+ years ago. We did a "formal elopement." Got married in a church, 4 people and the pastor, no one else invited. Reception thrown by our roommates, we lived in a group house, 5 working adults, anyone who wanted could come. Took all the money we saved and spent it on the honeymoon, 2 days in New York, 3 days in Athens, Greece, then a week long cruise around the Greek Isles and parts of Turkey. Santorini, Rhodes, Ephesus, Istanbul, etc. I am not into ceremony, wife doesn't like drama. We spent the money on what we thought would bring the most happiness.
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My favorite modern day wedding antics are the people who have a big fancy expensive wedding but then expect everyone to pay for their honeymoon via honeyfund because they need to go on a honeymoon but can't possibly pay for one after spending so much on the wedding!!!
My BIL doesn't even have a wedding date yet, but will constantly remind everyone about how we need to chip into their international honeymoon fund because they plan on spending so much on the wedding. I told him you don't need to have a honeymoon, you could do a staycation for a honeymoon, or just do a cheaper/smaller wedding. He became very upset at all of these ideas. I also reminded him he gave me nothing, literally nothing, when I got married...he claims not to remember that....
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I'm pretty sure the graph for debt-to-marital stress is a 45 degree angle.
I don't tend to get angry about who spent something on a crazy party, but I sympathize with people hit by surprize with how ruthless a business a wedding is. Keeping Up with the Joneses might as well be the wedding planner's trade name. Where I am, once someone says "venue," your minimum is already 25k.
A girl I know is getting married, and actually managed to use caterers for an entirely different lavish party to save a tremendous amount of money. She bought her dress from a Quinceañera shop. The dress was all elaborate and frilly and dramatic, but cost under $200.
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The wedding I always laugh about is one I went to on Long Island that ran into the six figures. It was at a popular wedding spot with three function halls, setting up the option for three simultaneous weddings. The bride didn't want to share her day, so they rented all 3. Room 1 was an "around theme" where chefs were preparing dishes from random countries. The chefs surrounded a gigantic swan ice sculpture fountain....of grey goose. Yes they continuously pimped vodka through the fountain...
Room 2 was then the main meal, which was pretty standard fare, though undoubtedly expensive
As we're we're all comatose, room 3 was unveiled to be a giant dessert room. As the walls retracted, we were treated to an 8 foot diameter creme brûlée, that was lit on fire and surrounded by shirtless men waving torches. Behind was a 2 foot diameter cannoli filled with little offspring cannolis and tables of assorted pastries.
It was an equal part hilarious but disgustingly wasteful experience.
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Hey Squeak,
This is an off-topic question, but what's your policy on cutting people off? I've got a few friend-type relationships in my life that are probably going to terminate fairly shortly, and I think it's probably for the best, but it's making me think about what circumstances are appropriate for letting a relationship go versus trying to confront & clear the air. What do you think?
What you propose could be a pretty high risk behavior. I'm glad you're thinking things through carefully.
To actually cut people off is to decide that there's no such thing as a safe and enjoyable distance: that person is a predator, you're a target of choice, and the predator has a history of using even the smallest social contact to not only engage in predatory behavior toward you but to manipulate others into setting you up for further abuse. I've done this myself only once in my life but it was a family member. On the whole I'm not a fan of the technique. It's very extreme and there are side effects in your community that cause people to line up in support of the predator while actively attacking you. I've got an e-book out on Smashwords and Amazon called "7 Servants of the Toxic Emperor" that explains why toxic communities behave the way they do. In a nutshell, the people around you won't necessarily see what provoked your reaction, but they will see your reaction. Cutting a person off completely is a very extreme behavior, so if they don't see any provocation they recognize as equally extreme or inappropriate for that person, there's a good chance you'll be the one tagged and punished as the aggressor.
My preferred technique, which I'm going to discuss in my next book on social warfare, is to find and maintain a mutually safe and enjoyable distance. Sometimes-- as in the case of the vinophile couple-- it involves occasional contact or conversation on social media, but no in-person meetings unless it's by accident. What they did was asshole-ish, but not actively predatory.
I'm more of a fan of letting relationships either die a natural death or gravitate toward the level of contact we both find mutually safe and satisfying. I increase the distance until I hit a point where the other person's actions no longer affect me one way or another. For an incurable gossip-- to use an example-- I dial the contact back to holiday cards, social media (where I never publish anything I wouldn't want to appear on the front page of the newspaper), and occasional public contact where we make small talk. This means that I can't use that person as a sounding board for ideas, I can't "vent" to them to release tension, and I can't interact with them in any situation where I might slip up and tell them what's really on my mind. Martini evenings, for example, are right out. But that doesn't mean I won't exchange hospitality with them or even give them a wedding gift if they commit matrimony.
This process involves some experimentation. Can we exchange hospitality, for example? Can we share transportation? Can we share a meal? Can I treat the person to coffee? Can we meet in passing at someone else's big social event? Some of the answers will be "yes" and others will be "no". Cherry-pick the kinds of interaction that leave you both feeling happy, and stick with that. If you find yourself feeling used or frustrated, it's a sign the interaction isn't working for you.
Generally I let friendships that aren't working die a natural death by turning my attention toward other people. I try forms of interaction that stand a chance of working, and back off until further notice if it doesn't work.
The only time "clearing the air" works is if there's an actual misunderstanding or a situation where an unintentional boundary violation has occurred due to lack of communication, but both people want to keep the relationship structure they've got (such as a marriage). In most cases there's a serious misalignment of interests or at least one person' needs have changed to the point where restructuring the relationship makes sense.
Did that make sense to you?
I don't go for a binary either/or solution to a relationship. Generally I consider the source of the problem, and whether it's an actual misunderstanding or isolated incident versus a larger pattern. If I see a larger pattern at work, I look for whether there's a salvageable relationship where the up-side for both of us more than compensates for any down-side.
I'm not a fan of cutting people off unless it's absolutely necessary. As to whether to confront and clear the air, you have to consider a few things.
1. Will the result of the conflict create the kind of improved closeness and understanding I want, or is it just something I want to do to s
and they've demonstrated that even with minimal contact or an honest good faith attempt to
they're still assholes. My philosophy is that unless you're dealing with an absolute sociopath, there's almost always a mutually safe and enjoyable distance. Your job is to find and maintain the safe and enjoyable distance with each individual in your life. They will be doing the same with you.
The person who makes a horrible roommate may be a good tenant or a great social media friend. The cousin who always hits you up for money in private might be perfectly worth socializing with at a family gathering.
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Hey Squeak,
This is an off-topic question, but what's your policy on cutting people off? I've got a few friend-type relationships in my life that are probably going to terminate fairly shortly, and I think it's probably for the best, but it's making me think about what circumstances are appropriate for letting a relationship go versus trying to confront & clear the air. What do you think?
What you propose could be a pretty high risk behavior. I'm glad you're thinking things through carefully.
To actually cut people off is to decide that there's no such thing as a safe and enjoyable distance: that person is a predator, you're a target of choice, and the predator has a history of using even the smallest social contact to not only engage in predatory behavior toward you but to manipulate others into setting you up for further abuse. I've done this myself only once in my life but it was a family member. On the whole I'm not a fan of the technique. It's very extreme and there are side effects in your community that cause people to line up in support of the predator while actively attacking you. I've got an e-book out on Smashwords and Amazon called "7 Servants of the Toxic Emperor" that explains why toxic communities behave the way they do. In a nutshell, the people around you won't necessarily see what provoked your reaction, but they will see your reaction. Cutting a person off completely is a very extreme behavior, so if they don't see any provocation they recognize as equally extreme or inappropriate for that person, there's a good chance you'll be the one tagged and punished as the aggressor.
My preferred technique, which I'm going to discuss in my next book on social warfare, is to find and maintain a mutually safe and enjoyable distance. Sometimes-- as in the case of the vinophile couple-- it involves occasional contact or conversation on social media, but no in-person meetings unless it's by accident. What they did was asshole-ish, but not actively predatory.
I'm more of a fan of letting relationships either die a natural death or gravitate toward the level of contact we both find mutually safe and satisfying. I increase the distance until I hit a point where the other person's actions no longer affect me one way or another. For an incurable gossip-- to use an example-- I dial the contact back to holiday cards, social media (where I never publish anything I wouldn't want to appear on the front page of the newspaper), and occasional public contact where we make small talk. This means that I can't use that person as a sounding board for ideas, I can't "vent" to them to release tension, and I can't interact with them in any situation where I might slip up and tell them what's really on my mind. Martini evenings, for example, are right out. But that doesn't mean I won't exchange hospitality with them or even give them a wedding gift if they commit matrimony.
This process involves some experimentation. Can we exchange hospitality, for example? Can we share transportation? Can we share a meal? Can I treat the person to coffee? Can we meet in passing at someone else's big social event? Some of the answers will be "yes" and others will be "no". Cherry-pick the kinds of interaction that leave you both feeling happy, and stick with that. If you find yourself feeling used or frustrated, it's a sign the interaction isn't working for you.
Generally I let friendships that aren't working die a natural death by turning my attention toward other people. I try forms of interaction that stand a chance of working, and back off until further notice if it doesn't work.
The only time "clearing the air" works is if there's an actual misunderstanding or a situation where an unintentional boundary violation has occurred due to lack of communication, but both people want to keep the relationship structure they've got (such as a marriage). In most cases there's a serious misalignment of interests or at least one person' needs have changed to the point where restructuring the relationship makes sense.
Did that make sense to you?
I don't go for a binary either/or solution to a relationship. Generally I consider the source of the problem, and whether it's an actual misunderstanding or isolated incident versus a larger pattern. If I see a larger pattern at work, I look for whether there's a salvageable relationship where the up-side for both of us more than compensates for any down-side.
I'm not a fan of cutting people off unless it's absolutely necessary. As to whether to confront and clear the air, you have to consider a few things.
1. Will the result of the conflict create the kind of improved closeness and understanding I want, or is it just something I want to do to s
and they've demonstrated that even with minimal contact or an honest good faith attempt to
they're still assholes. My philosophy is that unless you're dealing with an absolute sociopath, there's almost always a mutually safe and enjoyable distance. Your job is to find and maintain the safe and enjoyable distance with each individual in your life. They will be doing the same with you.
The person who makes a horrible roommate may be a good tenant or a great social media friend. The cousin who always hits you up for money in private might be perfectly worth socializing with at a family gathering.
This is awesome. Thanks for the insights. To derail it further, what if the predator is a sibling who you want nothing to do with and parents and family insists you be close/really friendly to the sibling because they are family and it is the noble thing to do? I have such a situation brewing and I'm not sure how to handle it without hurting my parents (who are otherwise wonderful people but have a misplaced idea of what is noble).
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This is awesome. Thanks for the insights. To derail it further, what if the predator is a sibling who you want nothing to do with and parents and family insists you be close/really friendly to the sibling because they are family and it is the noble thing to do? I have such a situation brewing and I'm not sure how to handle it without hurting my parents (who are otherwise wonderful people but have a misplaced idea of what is noble).
You're describing a situation in which your family is acting like a bunch of flying monkeys out of "The Wizard of Oz", putting their agenda of family unity (and your sibling's desire to do the sort of things that make you want nothing to do with her/him) ahead of your well-being.
The only way out is to sit down privately with each family member and explain why you're not willing to be close and friendly. Explain that it's not negotiable, but that you're tired of being a punching bag for Sibling. Their opinion of Sibling might be different (because they aren't the targets of choice), but since you've been on the end of some pretty egregious behavior you're going to do the minimum necessary to ensure it doesn't happen again. In other words, in order to keep yourself safe you've got to maintain a reasonable distance and respond to inappropriate behavior and boundary violations with the minimum effective force. But that's where it stops.
You don't try to control who your family members spend time with when you're not around. You don't try to dictate their guest lists, and you don't pitch the "either them or me" fit when it comes to large gatherings like weddings where you and your sibling can avoid one another. This means you will attend large gatherings (think 20+ people) but not intimate gatherings where you have to share a table or vehicle, spend time alone together, or fake any kind of friendly activity. You will include the sibling in all general family entertainments such as your own wedding. But you do not spend time alone with this person, you do not reveal sensitive information to that person, and you do not share information with anyone who's close to that person. Lending money, for example, is out of the question.
When you explain the new world order according to Spiffsome, make sure to explain that you fully expect to be depicted as the "bad" or "evil" person because of your "unforgiving" and "immature" nature, and you fully expect to not be believed or to be told that your concerns aren't important, because other family members have covered up for Sibling in the past. But you're also not willing to set yourself up for more abuse.
You'll have to do your part by not asking after the sibling or requesting information about Sibling.
If the entire family thinks that Sibling hung the moon, or has adopted the notion that Sibling is somehow entitled to be a jerk at other people's expense, you may have to resort to a "cherry picking" strategy in which you spend time with individual family members one-on-one but don't engage in public or large group activities with them anymore. People fleeing addictive families often need to do that.
Before drawing the line in the sand (which may temporarily cost you family support) it helps to build up a social and financial power base outside the family.
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Thank You Squeaker! I am going to keep this one for fu tire refrence, as there have been many folks who have asked me such questions and I'm always at a loss.
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The wedding I always laugh about is one I went to on Long Island that ran into the six figures. It was at a popular wedding spot with three function halls, setting up the option for three simultaneous weddings. The bride didn't want to share her day, so they rented all 3. Room 1 was an "around theme" where chefs were preparing dishes from random countries. The chefs surrounded a gigantic swan ice sculpture fountain....of grey goose. Yes they continuously pimped vodka through the fountain...
Room 2 was then the main meal, which was pretty standard fare, though undoubtedly expensive
As we're we're all comatose, room 3 was unveiled to be a giant dessert room. As the walls retracted, we were treated to an 8 foot diameter creme brûlée, that was lit on fire and surrounded by shirtless men waving torches. Behind was a 2 foot diameter cannoli filled with little offspring cannolis and tables of assorted pastries.
It was an equal part hilarious but disgustingly wasteful experience.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
THIS WINS! Hahahahaha. The shirtless men waving torches and the 'offspring cannolis' was the absolute best bit.
I wish to include shirtless men waving torches in all/any future celebrations that occur in my life.
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My favorite modern day wedding antics are the people who have a big fancy expensive wedding but then expect everyone to pay for their honeymoon via honeyfund because they need to go on a honeymoon but can't possibly pay for one after spending so much on the wedding!!!
My BIL doesn't even have a wedding date yet, but will constantly remind everyone about how we need to chip into their international honeymoon fund because they plan on spending so much on the wedding. I told him you don't need to have a honeymoon, you could do a staycation for a honeymoon, or just do a cheaper/smaller wedding. He became very upset at all of these ideas. I also reminded him he gave me nothing, literally nothing, when I got married...he claims not to remember that....
I'm old enough to remember when most honeymoons were fairly short, maybe a week and not to far from home.
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My favorite modern day wedding antics are the people who have a big fancy expensive wedding but then expect everyone to pay for their honeymoon via honeyfund because they need to go on a honeymoon but can't possibly pay for one after spending so much on the wedding!!!
My BIL doesn't even have a wedding date yet, but will constantly remind everyone about how we need to chip into their international honeymoon fund because they plan on spending so much on the wedding. I told him you don't need to have a honeymoon, you could do a staycation for a honeymoon, or just do a cheaper/smaller wedding. He became very upset at all of these ideas. I also reminded him he gave me nothing, literally nothing, when I got married...he claims not to remember that....
I'm old enough to remember when most honeymoons were fairly short, maybe a week and not to far from home.
There used to be a joke to that effect:
"Mom, where did you and Dad go on your honeymoon?"
"Upstairs."
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I saw reception photos on social media including a shout-out to me thanking me for the wine. I was never invited to the reception, but those fuckers used the wine.
I probably would not have been able to keep myself from making a snarky comment. "Wow, my invitation must have gotten lost in the mail? Or are you just assholes?"
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I wish to include shirtless men waving torches in all/any future celebrations that occur in my life.
Be careful what you wish for. In my social circle, this would result in all of my male friends stripping half-naked at every party. Not sure if that would be more hilarious, or horrifying.
I'm going with hilarious.
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Thanks Grim, last week I cut off a friend after finally being unable to handle dealing with her. I don't know that she is necessarily a toxic person, but in her eyes everyone she knows is a jerk to her and I finally wised up to the fact that she likely thinks of me as a jerk when she's talking to other friends. The only person I can think of that she hasn't badmouthed to me is one of my best friends, and that likely is why she hasn't said anything about her.
The only thing I feel bad about is how great this feels (it shouldn't feel this good to no longer be friends with someone that you used to be good friends with).
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I've gone to a bunch of weddings where the cost is reasonable (15k-20k) but most of them were paid by the parents and the bride and groom were pretty decent and didn't have any weird rules.
This was our wedding more or less. The biggest cost was the reception per food and headcount... if I had to do it again (after discovering MMM), we probably would have just done catering trays and definitely not have invited the number of people we did (most were either relatives or from our church, but we've changed churches since then and don't keep in touch with *most* of the people that were at our wedding). Otherwise, it was a pretty 'normal' wedding without strange rules. The craziest part was the Chinese banquet we had to go to for my in-laws later that same night. We were exhausted already and had to drive about an hour to go to this banquet, which consisted of *all* the members of the Chinese-Korean association my father-in-law was president of at the time. They mostly made us do ridiculous things but it wasn't fun because we were both super tired. Definitely not a good idea to opt for doing that all in a day but we just wanted to get it all over with. As far as who paid for what, I think my parents and my in-laws covered *alot* of the reception... at least those who *they* wanted to invite.
As far as ridiculous over-the-top weddings or wedding events, the most recent one was my cousin's in Hawaii - it was super-exquisite with multiple pre-wedding events (luau @ Turtle Bay and rehearsal dinner at Waimea Valley), local singers/instrumentalists (including Jake Shimabukuro at the reception dinner) and all sorts of really good food. My cousin's father-in-law is a SUPER wealthy investor/partner at an investment management company and my cousin is an anesthesiologist, so they could definitely afford to put it on. The father-in-law also happens to be invested in Turtle Bay, so they subsequently held the wedding there (I'm sure he got a "deal" on that). It was really nice and very memorable, but I'm scared to know how much they spent for all of it. My cousin married the eldest daughter so it was a complete blow-out event. Because not all their hundreds of friends could make it back in TX though, they ended up holding a second post-reception in Dallas at the Perot Museum. My parents and other brother went to that and said it was another blow-out event. I guess when you're in that income bracket you can do whatever you want
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My guy and I finally got hitched after being together for 21 years. He retired, so we did it to get him on my health insurance. We just did a quick ceremony in our living room. Our neighbor, an ordained (via the internet) minister presided, and his wife and my mom were our witnesses. Paid our neighbor with a half-rack of beer, they brought a bottle of wine to share, bing-bang-boom, done.
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Thanks Grim, last week I cut off a friend after finally being unable to handle dealing with her. I don't know that she is necessarily a toxic person, but in her eyes everyone she knows is a jerk to her and I finally wised up to the fact that she likely thinks of me as a jerk when she's talking to other friends. The only person I can think of that she hasn't badmouthed to me is one of my best friends, and that likely is why she hasn't said anything about her.
The only thing I feel bad about is how great this feels (it shouldn't feel this good to no longer be friends with someone that you used to be good friends with).
That's a sign that the person you were dealing with is toxic. It's not normal to feel relief when a close friend is no longer part of your life.
If "everyone" is a jerk to this woman, she's the common denominator. Also, it's very wise of you to notice that people eventually treat you the same way you see them treat other people, as soon as they give themselves permission.
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Thanks Grim, last week I cut off a friend after finally being unable to handle dealing with her. I don't know that she is necessarily a toxic person, but in her eyes everyone she knows is a jerk to her and I finally wised up to the fact that she likely thinks of me as a jerk when she's talking to other friends. The only person I can think of that she hasn't badmouthed to me is one of my best friends, and that likely is why she hasn't said anything about her.
The only thing I feel bad about is how great this feels (it shouldn't feel this good to no longer be friends with someone that you used to be good friends with).
That's a sign that the person you were dealing with is toxic. It's not normal to feel relief when a close friend is no longer part of your life.
If "everyone" is a jerk to this woman, she's the common denominator. Also, it's very wise of you to notice that people eventually treat you the same way you see them treat other people, as soon as they give themselves permission.
Thanks, I agree. It's been about 10 days since we last spoke and I still feel more relieved than anything and I'm someone that normally goes over past conversations in my head endlessly trying to find ways I messed up or could have handled things differently. I haven't heard from her other than a manipulative email from her the next day and when I was hanging out with our mutual friend that weekend she mentioned hearing that "we had a falling out," and made it clear that she would be staying firmly out of it as she's friends with both of us (which I agree with).
My biggest concern is if she starts bad-mouthing me to her other friends, but I'll cross that bridge when I reach it.
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I had a small wedding. But I feel what others choose to spend on their big day, is their own personal business. If they go into debt for it, it's their problem, sure.
I didn't marry until my late 30s and most of my friends got married at age 22-24. They had kids in middle school while I was still out dating. So naturally, we drifted apart over the years. I got new friends and so did they.