Author Topic: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car  (Read 32423 times)


sisca

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2014, 03:24:08 PM »
The thing is that they might be cheaper to own. Then avain, they might not. Who knows? Certainly not me, but why people take that kind of gamble with that much money is beyond me.

yahui168

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2014, 04:15:16 PM »
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/180443-tesla-model-s-might-be-cheaper-than-a-honda-odyssey-minivan

Doesn't that just mean you shouldn't buy a Honda Odyssey? And due to an error in his spreadsheet, the Odyssey ends up beating the Tesla. At the end of the day, he's just using mathemagic to justify a $90k purchase. It doesn't look like he factored in insurance costs, and I can't figure out if his spreadsheet accounts for opportunity cost of investing the difference in purchase price (I don't think so).
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 04:49:41 PM by yahui168 »

prodarwin

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2014, 05:40:59 PM »
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/180443-tesla-model-s-might-be-cheaper-than-a-honda-odyssey-minivan

Doesn't that just mean you shouldn't buy a Honda Odyssey?

Absolutely.  But the point is there are just as many cars in plain sight that are as ridiculous, if not more, than a Tesla.


greaper007

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2014, 11:54:18 PM »
He also picked the absolute most expensive, new Odyssey.    Why buy the $42,000 version when there's a low $20s version that does all the same things, just without leather and a navigation system that will be dated in a year?    I'm also trying to figure out his maintenance costs.    I might spend $500 on maintenance on a really bad year where I have to buy all kinds of german parts for my vw.    Say, timing belt, water pump, spark plugs and coils.    Or a year that I have to buy tires.    That only happens about once every 5 years.    Yet he has mx costs at $2500 on a bad year.    What does he anticipate, a total transmission swap after 5 years?

I bought a minivan this year.   A 2000 Toyota Sienna.   At 141,000 miles it runs better than any of my other cars and I'm sure I'll get another 6+ years out of it.    What did I pay?   $3,800.   

This list isn't really about the cost of ownership, it's about justifying something cool and expensive with fuzzy data.

Th

yahui168

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2014, 01:15:49 PM »

This list isn't really about the cost of ownership, it's about justifying something cool and expensive with fuzzy data.


Yeah, I can show that buying a Tesla is cheaper than biking even if I assume the bike is free.

Assuming I have to travel 15k miles a year
each mile requires 50 calories
each calories costs $0.01 (fuel)
medical insurance at $1200 per year (maintenance)
rent at $3600 per year (you can park a car in the street but you have to sleep somewhere)

That's a total cost of $98,4000 for 8 years! I'm going to show this to my wife and see if she lets me buy a Tesla.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 02:01:41 PM by yahui168 »

prodarwin

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2014, 01:53:54 PM »


And most people I know who have minivans have them because they're kid-haulers. I'm not sure where my best friend would fit #4 and #5, plus the groceries from Costco, in a Tesla.

Again, not trying to justify a Tesla in any way, but you do realize it seats 7, right?  http://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/tesla/model-s/2013/lt/2013_tesla_model-s_crg_lt_3172013_600.jpg

Why is he taking his wife and 5 children to Costco anyway?  That trip sounds like my worst nightmare.



Yes, the math is a little ridiculous.  Totally irrelevant for most people here as none of us would consider a $50K minivan (or probably a $25K minivan for that matter), its just an interesting if not funny article.  The Honda is an extreme example, but I bet even with real math there are plenty of cars infinitely more common than Teslas that are just as unaffordable/financially insane for the average family.

Reepekg

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2014, 03:44:37 PM »
Quote
As it turns out, the car was nearly free. Thanks to having the money in TSLA, I was able to pay off the car and we've got the same extra $50k we originally had... If I hadn't heard of Tesla, the money would have gone into some index fund that wouldn't have made much, relatively speaking.

Thanks to getting money in TSLA at $30/share, I was able to not buy a car and have a big stinkin' pile of money instead!

okashira

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2014, 04:37:39 PM »


And most people I know who have minivans have them because they're kid-haulers. I'm not sure where my best friend would fit #4 and #5, plus the groceries from Costco, in a Tesla.

Again, not trying to justify a Tesla in any way, but you do realize it seats 7, right?  http://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/tesla/model-s/2013/lt/2013_tesla_model-s_crg_lt_3172013_600.jpg

Why is he taking his wife and 5 children to Costco anyway?  That trip sounds like my worst nightmare.



Yes, the math is a little ridiculous.  Totally irrelevant for most people here as none of us would consider a $50K minivan (or probably a $25K minivan for that matter), its just an interesting if not funny article.  The Honda is an extreme example, but I bet even with real math there are plenty of cars infinitely more common than Teslas that are just as unaffordable/financially insane for the average family.

No, I didn't realize it had 5 seats! My parents' station wagon had a seat like that, though it leaves precious little space for groceries.

And she takes the 5 kids to Costco because he is busy working to support a family of 7. (He drives some small sedan.) The children don't watch themselves, so they go to Costco. And since the oldest is 8, you can't put her in the front seat.

Actually, the T Models S has insane amount of storage. You could probably have 6 passengers, and still carry a lot of groceries. Some in front of the kids feat in the back, full the front (there is no engine... just another trunk.)

Zamboni

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2014, 06:19:33 PM »
Good grief, after all this talk, I had to google Tesla just to see what these magic money mobiles look like, and imagine my surprise when I realized I SAW ONE OF THESE ON THE ROAD JUST THE OTHER DAY!  And now I know what it was.  That's certainly getting close enough to one for me, for now.  Maybe in a decade they will be on the used market cheap enough for me to considering buying one.

senecando

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2014, 06:22:21 PM »
Good grief, after all this talk, I had to google Tesla just to see what these magic money mobiles look like, and imagine my surprise when I realized I SAW ONE OF THESE ON THE ROAD JUST THE OTHER DAY!  And now I know what it was.  That's certainly getting close enough to one for me, for now.  Maybe in a decade they will be on the used market cheap enough for me to considering buying one.

Did you shout in awe: "THATS A MIDSIZE SEDAN!"

Zamboni

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2014, 06:35:29 PM »
YES!  My son and I were wondering what the little T was for . . . and now we know.  One of the versions looks like an egg, but the other one is nice looking.  $96K for a car that looks like an egg.

greaper007

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2014, 10:29:05 AM »
YES!  My son and I were wondering what the little T was for . . . and now we know.  One of the versions looks like an egg, but the other one is nice looking.  $96K for a car that looks like an egg.

Ha, you could buy a Previa for like $1500 and it would have the same shape.

prodarwin

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2014, 10:54:32 AM »
What Previa and/or Tesla are you guys looking at?




joleran

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2014, 02:34:28 PM »
If you're willing to give up a carbon fiber spoiler and a tiny bit of acceleration, the price drops to $80k.  Willing to also settle for 230mi range instead of 300?  Price drops to $70k.   Live in Colorado? $6k tax rebate on top of $7k federal tax rebate.

So all things considered, you can get a model S for $57,570.

You can also go fully loaded for $128,000.  Pretty incredible price range really.

greaper007

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2014, 09:23:25 AM »
If you're willing to give up a carbon fiber spoiler and a tiny bit of acceleration, the price drops to $80k.  Willing to also settle for 230mi range instead of 300?  Price drops to $70k.   Live in Colorado? $6k tax rebate on top of $7k federal tax rebate.

So all things considered, you can get a model S for $57,570.

You can also go fully loaded for $128,000.  Pretty incredible price range really.


True, though that seems to be a normal range for a lot of cars.   The Sienna lists $26,920 for the L and $40,240 for the limited.    Same engine, both fwd (the AWD goes up to 47,070).    The only difference is leather and gadgets.    Gadgets that will probably cost $300 aftermarket on ebay in a year.

Cars are mostly a big rip off.    The only thing I really care about is safety and efficiency.

Also, if you do buy the Tesla have fun replacing the battery pack when they're out of warranty.    I can't even begin to imagine how much that will cost, $15,000, $25,000?

I was looking at the price for a rebuilt battery pack for our civic hybrid yesterday.   About $2,200 to do a swap myself.    I could maybe, maybe rebuild the cells for $400 or so but I think I would have to buy a $400 charger along with that.    I hope I get the 76,000 miles out of this one that I got out of the first one.

Otsog

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2014, 11:04:14 AM »


Wow. I really don't like the look of mini-vans (or car about car aesthetics in general), but, this one is amazing.

BlueMR2

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2014, 05:50:42 PM »
Wow. I really don't like the look of mini-vans (or car about car aesthetics in general), but, this one is amazing.

Great minivan, but labor costs on them are high.  The engine is mid-mounted, under the floor, and hard to get at.

CarDude

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2014, 08:32:12 PM »
Wow. I really don't like the look of mini-vans (or car about car aesthetics in general), but, this one is amazing.

Great minivan, but labor costs on them are high.  The engine is mid-mounted, under the floor, and hard to get at.

They were also pretty atrocious from a safety perspective. The Sienna that succeeded it was like a night into day transition.

greaper007

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2014, 09:56:52 PM »
Wow. I really don't like the look of mini-vans (or car about car aesthetics in general), but, this one is amazing.

Great minivan, but labor costs on them are high.  The engine is mid-mounted, under the floor, and hard to get at.

They're still driving them in Japan, in fact there's a hybrid version over there.

My dream, a hybrid minivan run by a diesel engine, sort of like a train.

Scandium

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #70 on: May 06, 2014, 08:26:24 AM »
The heck with Tesla and their ridiculously expensive cars.

I'm getting one of these when they come out (low price, look cool, and less than 10% of the cost of a Tesla):

http://www.eliomotors.com/



That things looks pretty awesome! Only $7k and 84 mpg. I'd be a little scared going next to a semi on I-95 with it thought. Maybe if I took the back roads to work instead..

libertarian4321

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2014, 12:39:50 PM »
The heck with Tesla and their ridiculously expensive cars.

I'm getting one of these when they come out (low price, look cool, and less than 10% of the cost of a Tesla):

http://www.eliomotors.com/



That things looks pretty awesome! Only $7k and 84 mpg. I'd be a little scared going next to a semi on I-95 with it thought. Maybe if I took the back roads to work instead..

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd want to take it cross country on busy highways, either.  But the Elio would make a great 2nd commuter car.  With the low cost and great gas mileage, it would be great for that.

Joggernot

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2014, 06:38:46 PM »
My son is on the list for an Elio when it comes out.  It'll be his commuter car, since he has a 40 mile, 1 hour commute each way.

My electric car is a street legal electric golf cart for $2400.  Works just fine for me because I can't walk far or ride a bike, but it can haul lots of things from the store to home in peace and quiet.  Yes, the town has a special law for street legal golf carts.  And yes, the full torque goes from 0 mph, so, from a dead stop, I can beat almost any car for about 2-10 inches...:)

Rezdent

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2014, 12:11:33 PM »
Wow. I really don't like the look of mini-vans (or car about car aesthetics in general), but, this one is amazing.

Great minivan, but labor costs on them are high.  The engine is mid-mounted, under the floor, and hard to get at.


They were also pretty atrocious from a safety perspective. The Sienna that succeeded it was like a night into day transition.
Autos are used to haul people and stuff.  Expense, ease and costs of repairs, safety are all things I would consider in an auto purchase.  Paint might be considered into safety or longevity.  Also what type of auto would best meet needs.
Aesthetics?  I don't care what it looks like as long as it meets my needs.

Albert

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2014, 12:20:22 PM »
What if one of your "needs" is to impress others? :)

Rezdent

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2014, 12:43:25 PM »
What if one of your "needs" is to impress others? :)
Ah.  I do have the need to be accepted by others.  I'm probably overly worried about being polite, kind and helpful.  But it seems to me that a lot of people are using cars as a status symbol to the point where they make $96000 purchases that tank their relationships and their finances.  A car is a tool.  So is a hammer but for some reason I've never seen someone who got their self esteem tangled up in how cool their hammer looked to others.  I see lots of folks who buy cars based on what's cool instead of they need and can afford.

BlueMR2

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2014, 07:20:26 PM »
Autos are used to haul people and stuff.  Expense, ease and costs of repairs, safety are all things I would consider in an auto purchase.  Paint might be considered into safety or longevity.  Also what type of auto would best meet needs.
Aesthetics?  I don't care what it looks like as long as it meets my needs.

I *prefer* my cars don't look like they're going to fall apart while I'm driving down the road, so I get the rust areas patched regularly on my cars.  That of course also helps keep the rust from intruding further into the car and doing actual structural damage.  I don't bother repainting the chips on the plastic pieces though.  :-)

I mostly just look for something that's inexpensive to purchase, inexpensive to maintain, and is fun.  If I'm going to spend time in it, it should be enjoyable.  Hence, why I have small 4 cyl sportscars.  Cheap to buy and operate, not much to go wrong, and plenty of fun!  As a middle-aged guy with no children, safety isn't on my radar, especially since the worst cars today are so much better than even the best cars from back in the day.  Just not a concern for me.

TomTX

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2014, 08:15:47 PM »
Plus they didn't want to drive the Tesla in the winter because they didn't want to get snow or salt on it, so it was sitting in the garage.

Probably wise to not drive the Tesla in the Winter.  With those fires coming from damage to the underbody I would NOT want to drive one in the Winter around here.  It's not uncommon to hit large chunks of ice that will cause underbody damage. 

This is misinformation. Those cars are tanks. Have you seen this?

I'm glad to see they fixed that problem on the new ones.  Have they gone back and retrofitted all of them on the road, or are there still ticking timebombs driving down the highway?

Nobody was even injured in those fires, and they have had fewer fires than gasoline cars by any reasonable metric (per mile, or per vehicle on the road) The car told the driver to pull over, the driver did. From a safety perspective, Tesla is way up at the top of the heap. They broke the testing machine when they tried to crush one vertically.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/08/20/tesla-model-s-crash-test/2678557/

FunkyStickman

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2014, 11:06:11 AM »
Saw this today, had to post it here:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s

dragoncar

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2014, 12:07:34 PM »
Saw this today, had to post it here:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s

"Never mind the fact that Tesla Motors responded by releasing a software update that was wirelessly downloaded to every Model S overnight that adjusted the height of the car and fixed the problem"

Jesus... does anyone else find this way more terrifying than the chance of fire?

seattlecyclone

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2014, 01:26:09 PM »
Saw this today, had to post it here:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s

"Never mind the fact that Tesla Motors responded by releasing a software update that was wirelessly downloaded to every Model S overnight that adjusted the height of the car and fixed the problem"

Jesus... does anyone else find this way more terrifying than the chance of fire?

I work in software. This is a double-edged sword for sure. On the one hand, it's awesome that they have the capability to correct safety-related bugs without forcing everyone to drive their car into the dealer. On the other hand, if someone manages to get a hold of Tesla's private keys there might not be anything stopping them from broadcasting a "software update" to cause all Teslas' brakes to fail the next time they accelerate past 40 MPH.

Plenty of cars are already vulnerable to a wide variety of software security vulnerabilities. The remote software update feature greatly increases the potential attack surface. It should definitely give one pause.

dragoncar

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2014, 02:09:34 PM »
Saw this today, had to post it here:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s

"Never mind the fact that Tesla Motors responded by releasing a software update that was wirelessly downloaded to every Model S overnight that adjusted the height of the car and fixed the problem"

Jesus... does anyone else find this way more terrifying than the chance of fire?

I work in software. This is a double-edged sword for sure. On the one hand, it's awesome that they have the capability to correct safety-related bugs without forcing everyone to drive their car into the dealer. On the other hand, if someone manages to get a hold of Tesla's private keys there might not be anything stopping them from broadcasting a "software update" to cause all Teslas' brakes to fail the next time they accelerate past 40 MPH.

Plenty of cars are already vulnerable to a wide variety of software security vulnerabilities. The remote software update feature greatly increases the potential attack surface. It should definitely give one pause.

It's cool, but it would be really easy to make someone with the key actually confirm they want the update installed (maybe it does?  I am getting my facts from a webcomic). 

CarDude

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2014, 06:27:59 PM »
Saw this today, had to post it here:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s

Nice. However, he shouldn't have used his "5.4/5" claim to bolster his safety speech. The NHTSA specifically denounced Tesla's claim that the S had a 5.4/5 score; what Tesla did was the equivalent of adding up one's points on a pass/fail test and declaring one got a P+10 if one got a 90 and the P threshold was 80.

Jack

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2014, 10:34:04 AM »
Saw this today, had to post it here:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s

"Never mind the fact that Tesla Motors responded by releasing a software update that was wirelessly downloaded to every Model S overnight that adjusted the height of the car and fixed the problem"

Jesus... does anyone else find this way more terrifying than the chance of fire?

I work in software. This is a double-edged sword for sure. On the one hand, it's awesome that they have the capability to correct safety-related bugs without forcing everyone to drive their car into the dealer. On the other hand, if someone manages to get a hold of Tesla's private keys there might not be anything stopping them from broadcasting a "software update" to cause all Teslas' brakes to fail the next time they accelerate past 40 MPH.

Plenty of cars are already vulnerable to a wide variety of software security vulnerabilities. The remote software update feature greatly increases the potential attack surface. It should definitely give one pause.

I also work in software, and therefore own cars built last millennium. (One of them still manages to be drive-by-wire, but at least I know they don't have any modems in them.)

Basenji

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2014, 12:13:35 PM »
Good grief, after all this talk, I had to google Tesla just to see what these magic money mobiles look like, and imagine my surprise when I realized I SAW ONE OF THESE ON THE ROAD JUST THE OTHER DAY!  And now I know what it was.  That's certainly getting close enough to one for me, for now.  Maybe in a decade they will be on the used market cheap enough for me to considering buying one.

Did you shout in awe: "THATS A MIDSIZE SEDAN!"

Splurted my water, thanks.

I want the self-driving electric car. I want to share it with others like zip car, call it to the house, sit down, say, "go to x" read my book and get there. I'll pay for that. Otherwise the Tesla is same-o, same-o car.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 12:36:49 PM by Basenji »

golden1

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #85 on: May 15, 2014, 07:22:13 AM »
Quote
I want the self-driving electric car. I want to share it with others like zip car, call it to the house, sit down, say, "go to x" read my book and get there.

Ditto this - I really hope to see something like this in my lifetime.  Need a car - send a message on your smartphone - it comes to your house in 15 minutes and picks you up.  Also, it solves so many problems - like only getting the vehicle you need for that particular day or trip.  Sadly, it will probably end up sucking (tragedy of the commons) but I am in love with the idea of that.

shotgunwilly

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #86 on: May 15, 2014, 12:34:14 PM »
Saw this today, had to post it here:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s

"Never mind the fact that Tesla Motors responded by releasing a software update that was wirelessly downloaded to every Model S overnight that adjusted the height of the car and fixed the problem"

Jesus... does anyone else find this way more terrifying than the chance of fire?

I work in software. This is a double-edged sword for sure. On the one hand, it's awesome that they have the capability to correct safety-related bugs without forcing everyone to drive their car into the dealer. On the other hand, if someone manages to get a hold of Tesla's private keys there might not be anything stopping them from broadcasting a "software update" to cause all Teslas' brakes to fail the next time they accelerate past 40 MPH.

Plenty of cars are already vulnerable to a wide variety of software security vulnerabilities. The remote software update feature greatly increases the potential attack surface. It should definitely give one pause.

It's cool, but it would be really easy to make someone with the key actually confirm they want the update installed (maybe it does?  I am getting my facts from a webcomic).

How many people check to see whether the new IOS update will make their IPhone explode before they just push "download update"?

dragoncar

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #87 on: May 15, 2014, 12:53:23 PM »
Saw this today, had to post it here:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s

"Never mind the fact that Tesla Motors responded by releasing a software update that was wirelessly downloaded to every Model S overnight that adjusted the height of the car and fixed the problem"

Jesus... does anyone else find this way more terrifying than the chance of fire?

I work in software. This is a double-edged sword for sure. On the one hand, it's awesome that they have the capability to correct safety-related bugs without forcing everyone to drive their car into the dealer. On the other hand, if someone manages to get a hold of Tesla's private keys there might not be anything stopping them from broadcasting a "software update" to cause all Teslas' brakes to fail the next time they accelerate past 40 MPH.

Plenty of cars are already vulnerable to a wide variety of software security vulnerabilities. The remote software update feature greatly increases the potential attack surface. It should definitely give one pause.

It's cool, but it would be really easy to make someone with the key actually confirm they want the update installed (maybe it does?  I am getting my facts from a webcomic).

How many people check to see whether the new IOS update will make their IPhone explode before they just push "download update"?

How many iphones can kill you with a malicious update?  The risk is negligible (it could possibly get very hot or give you directions off a cliff?)

edit: that said, I do tend to wait a long time before updating my phone software -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  This won't prevent sleeper code, but greatly increases the chance Apple detects it and says "woah, someone compromised our servers -- that update is stealing your credit card info!"
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 12:55:02 PM by dragoncar »

warfreak2

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2014, 01:19:08 PM »
edit: that said, I do tend to wait a long time before updating my phone software -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  This won't prevent sleeper code, but greatly increases the chance Apple detects it and says "woah, someone compromised our servers -- that update is stealing your credit card info!"
Primarily, it greatly increases the chance that you will fall victim to a known security flaw. Soon after Apple publishes a security update, if not before, everyone knows what the problem was and how to exploit it in phones which aren't updated yet.

dragoncar

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #89 on: May 15, 2014, 01:34:26 PM »
edit: that said, I do tend to wait a long time before updating my phone software -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  This won't prevent sleeper code, but greatly increases the chance Apple detects it and says "woah, someone compromised our servers -- that update is stealing your credit card info!"
Primarily, it greatly increases the chance that you will fall victim to a known security flaw. Soon after Apple publishes a security update, if not before, everyone knows what the problem was and how to exploit it in phones which aren't updated yet.

Perhaps but you can read the update description to determine your risk and vulnerability.  I want that option.  And of course the tesla has this problem magnified by the potential to kill you

warfreak2

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #90 on: May 15, 2014, 02:55:10 PM »
For sure, automatic updates on a car are not comparable at all to automatic updates on a phone, and for sure, reading the update descriptions and manually approving them is a good idea. (I was only commenting on the practice of delaying updates for a long time. Your phone is broke, a little, so do fix it.) That said, I do doubt that car software updates would have control over critical things like steering, acceleration, or the brakes. I could be wrong.

dragoncar

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #91 on: May 15, 2014, 03:10:14 PM »
For sure, automatic updates on a car are not comparable at all to automatic updates on a phone, and for sure, reading the update descriptions and manually approving them is a good idea. (I was only commenting on the practice of delaying updates for a long time. Your phone is broke, a little, so do fix it.) That said, I do doubt that car software updates would have control over critical things like steering, acceleration, or the brakes. I could be wrong.

OK, I was only going based on the webcomic so I did a little more research to confirm that they increased the ride height by adjusting the suspension via remote update.  Maybe they have separate systems, but I wouldn't be surprised if you can do nasty things.

Ironfist

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #92 on: May 20, 2014, 09:48:12 AM »
For what you'd spend on a Tesla you could buy a brand new Hyundai and save the extra $80k for gas.  Even more if you buy a used car.  The economics simply don't make sense.

Yes, I know Tesla is a luxury car but if you're being frugal who needs that?

FunkyStickman

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #93 on: May 20, 2014, 11:05:26 AM »
For what you'd spend on a Tesla you could buy a brand new Hyundai and save the extra $80k for gas.  Even more if you buy a used car.  The economics simply don't make sense.

Yes, I know Tesla is a luxury car but if you're being frugal who needs that?

By definition, no one needs a luxury vehicle. It's a luxury.

warfreak2

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #94 on: May 20, 2014, 11:56:02 AM »
If you value environmentalism very highly, than that $80k could be money well spent.

Otherwise, do remember that you still get a $96k car out of it - as far as I know, demand for Tesla cars is much higher than their production capacity can satisfy, so there's an active secondary market. I suspect they depreciate in value much slower than other luxury cars do.

golden1

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #95 on: May 20, 2014, 12:50:22 PM »
Quote
If you value environmentalism very highly, than that $80k could be money well spent.

What is the environmental cost associated with the coal used to charge the battery and the rare earths in the battery itself?  Or the environmental cost of all the resources used to make the 4400 lb car itself?

Don't get me wrong, I drool over the engineering in the Tesla, but I an skeptical that it is environmentally better in the long run.  I remember asking a friend of mine who is a clean energy analyst, and he said that the most environmentally friendly car (besides not owning a car at all) for most people  is still a used high MPG vehicle.  He owned a used Corolla.   

Albert

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #96 on: May 20, 2014, 01:04:22 PM »
Perhaps, but imagine how much clean the air in our cities is going to be when all cars are electric (or hydrogen).

warfreak2

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #97 on: May 20, 2014, 02:02:15 PM »
If you value environmentalism to the tune of $80k, you're already getting all of your energy from renewable sources anyway.

clifp

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Re: Middle Class people justifying buying a $96k car
« Reply #98 on: May 20, 2014, 03:32:08 PM »
I dearly love my Tesla, but I am also quite proud that at $56K after tax credit, but including license, registration and delivery charges, I possibly have the cheapest Tesla every delivered.
On Dec 31, 2012 right before the price increase I ordered mine.  I got a 40KWH battery (no longer available) which saved me $10K) the only options I got were leather seats, air suspension and blue paint.  My PV charges the car, and there is no maintenance needed other than buying and rotating tires. So while I can't, with straight face, claim it is Mustachian it isn't as crazy expense as it appears a first.  Now days you get a Tesla for $65-70K after rebate, you just have to skip the expensive options like the tech package, leather trim, moon roof etc.

It is an amazing transportation device (car is just so 20th century).  Literally every person who I have take for a ride has been blown away, mostly the people who aren't "car people".  At least 2 are seriously considering buying one (one who could afford to and one who really shouldn't).

The software upgrade are really one of the coolest things about the car. In the almost year I've owned the car, it is much better product now than when I bought thanks to scores of improvement which get delivered automatically every couple of months.

That said unless you have lots of money and/or really need a big car, I'd wait until 2016/2017 to get the 3rd generation Tesla at <$40K I am sure it will be amazing.