Author Topic: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality  (Read 17969 times)


GrayGhost

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 12:07:03 AM »
"If you have a seven-figure bank account, you probably shouldn’t be clipping coupons, or stiffing the guy that mows your lawn, or making people chase you down to pay an invoice. Or tipping like an absolute jackass."

I agree with this part, except for clipping coupons (in theory). You shouldn't stiff people or be unkind to them. You don't have to do these things in order to save most of your money.

innerscorecard

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 01:11:08 AM »
"If you have a seven-figure bank account, you probably shouldn’t be clipping coupons, or stiffing the guy that mows your lawn, or making people chase you down to pay an invoice. Or tipping like an absolute jackass."

I agree with this part, except for clipping coupons (in theory). You shouldn't stiff people or be unkind to them. You don't have to do these things in order to save most of your money.

That's the thing that really bugged me about that thread. It's the conflation of spending money and being mean or nice. A lot of people who spend a lot of money otherwise are not pleasant to service workers and are nasty in general. And a lot of frugal people are generous to service workers and are pleasant people to be around.

LalsConstant

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 05:54:27 AM »
That's not lamenting frugality imho rather that is lamenting not diverting financial resources according to one's own values.

TexasStash

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2015, 08:55:18 AM »
That argument is one giant straw man. Impressive.

Also amusing how he makes distinctions between different types of non-frugal people but gives no such distinction for frugal people. They are all apparently CFs in his opinion.

I actually wish I was a bit more like his CF days when I was first starting out. But instead I let the peer pressure and laziness get to me, and I bought my lunch almost every day, often for $10 or more (a lot considering I don't like in a high cost of living area).

Like others have said, I am all in favor of paying bills on time (a ridiculous straw man if i've ever seen one) and tipping people generously.

I suppose that guy would not enjoy MMM's blog post about getting rich $10 at a time? :)

trailrated

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2015, 11:00:14 AM »
Quote
Because we have a family credit card (My parents each have one, and me and my sister have one for emergencies, or to buy myself a birthday present, etc.) whenever we go out to eat I always make sure that I'm the one that gets the bill so that way I know the server is getting a proper tip. If he gets the bill before I can get it, I'll even try to fill it in for him too. I like to say I'll do it because that way he doesn't need to get out his glasses.

One of the comments... HOLY FUCK ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Wearing the righteous cape of being the good person because they are tipping more when they are doing it with daddy's credit card. How about you earn your own money and tip with it instead of rushing to pay with money that is not yours so you can give more away.

thd7t

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2015, 11:09:46 AM »
Quote
Because we have a family credit card (My parents each have one, and me and my sister have one for emergencies, or to buy myself a birthday present, etc.) whenever we go out to eat I always make sure that I'm the one that gets the bill so that way I know the server is getting a proper tip. If he gets the bill before I can get it, I'll even try to fill it in for him too. I like to say I'll do it because that way he doesn't need to get out his glasses.

One of the comments... HOLY FUCK ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Wearing the righteous cape of being the good person because they are tipping more when they are doing it with daddy's credit card. How about you earn your own money and tip with it instead of rushing to pay with money that is not yours so you can give more away.
I'm just latching on to your (just) indignation!  I bolded another part that drove me nuts!  What is with this?!

MgoSam

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2015, 11:42:08 AM »
Yeah I hate the notion that you can either be frugal or you can be nice and actually tip, I disagree. I don't go out very often, but when I do, I am a good tipper. I am also fair to the wait staff and treat them all with respect. This is a measure of how I am raised, and it also is appreciation towards those there, I have never been able to understand anyone that views this differently...you know those types, the ones that feel smug and superior and snap at their waitress and actually take glee in it.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2015, 11:45:24 AM »
"If you have a seven-figure bank account, you probably shouldn’t be clipping coupons, or stiffing the guy that mows your lawn, or making people chase you down to pay an invoice. Or tipping like an absolute jackass."

I agree with this part, except for clipping coupons (in theory). You shouldn't stiff people or be unkind to them. You don't have to do these things in order to save most of your money.

And you don't need seven figures in order to be responsible and pay what you owe.   

That argument is one giant straw man. Impressive.


Yeah. But it's amusing that the guy didn't mind outing himself as an asshole and a jerk.

The comments are beyond belief.

MandyM

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2015, 11:49:16 AM »
Quote
Because we have a family credit card (My parents each have one, and me and my sister have one for emergencies, or to buy myself a birthday present, etc.) whenever we go out to eat I always make sure that I'm the one that gets the bill so that way I know the server is getting a proper tip. If he gets the bill before I can get it, I'll even try to fill it in for him too. I like to say I'll do it because that way he doesn't need to get out his glasses.

One of the comments... HOLY FUCK ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Wearing the righteous cape of being the good person because they are tipping more when they are doing it with daddy's credit card. How about you earn your own money and tip with it instead of rushing to pay with money that is not yours so you can give more away.
I'm just latching on to your (just) indignation!  I bolded another part that drove me nuts!  What is with this?!

That same comment goes on to say, "back in high school..." and "...my fiance...." So, this is a grown ass man that has a credit card from his parents. Now, I had one in college, but it was truly "for emergencies." I didn't pick up dinner or birthday presents with it.

fantabulous

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2015, 12:16:52 PM »
That same comment goes on to say, "back in high school..." and "...my fiance...." So, this is a grown ass man that has a credit card from his parents. Now, I had one in college, but it was truly "for emergencies." I didn't pick up dinner or birthday presents with it.

"You're travelling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind; a journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of birthday presents for oneself being an emergency.  That's the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the Twilight Zone!"

crispy

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2015, 12:20:28 PM »
There is a huge difference between being frugal and being a cheap jerkwad.  I am frugal, but I never treat people badly or refuse to pay what I owe in order to save a dollar.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 12:23:04 PM by crispy »

4alpacas

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2015, 05:55:36 PM »
There is a huge difference between being frugal and being a cheap jerkwad.  I am frugal, but I never treat people badly or refuse to pay what I owe in order to save a dollar.
Very good point!  However, I might be a jerk if I had to eat baked beans from a can for lunch every day.  Ick.  I hate baked beans.  The thought of eating them cold makes me cringe. 

r3dt4rget

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2015, 08:27:55 PM »
To me it sounds like the people he hires are a bunch of entitled brats if they go so far as to demand tips. Our society is so screwed up over the tipping system, that now there is an ever-increasing "minimum tip". Minimum tip, isn't that an oxymoron? I understand trying to rip people off, or doing deals in bad faith, but tipping is not a matter of being a good or bad person.

I'll be glad when more restaurants get rid of tipping, as many have recently. There was an article on MSN the other day (can't find it now) about a restaurant that banned tips, and instead negotiated contracts with their employees. The starting salary for the servers ended up being around $35k, and all employees accepted. Any tips they do receive are donated to charity. This article is also an interesting read http://www.slate.com/articles/life/culturebox/2013/08/tipless_restaurants_the_linkery_s_owner_explains_why_abolishing_tipping.html

It pisses me off when people believe tipping is required or else you are a terrible person. And then this guy goes one step further and demands that people tip a minimum amount, as if tips were not designed to reward based on performance. It's not charity, bud.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 08:30:54 PM by r3dt4rget »

crispy

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2015, 09:25:30 PM »
There is a huge difference between being frugal and being a cheap jerkwad.  I am frugal, but I never treat people badly or refuse to pay what I owe in order to save a dollar.
Very good point!  However, I might be a jerk if I had to eat baked beans from a can for lunch every day.  Ick.  I hate baked beans.  The thought of eating them cold makes me cringe.

Quoted for truth.  That's just nasty.

MakingSenseofCents

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2015, 10:11:30 PM »
Very interesting! As some others have said, I think there is a major difference between being a CF and being frugal. If you are trying to save money by essentially taking money from others (such as not leaving a tip even if there was great service), then you are probably a CF. You should just stay home.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 10:13:04 PM by MakingSenseofCents »

Luck12

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2015, 11:46:57 PM »
To me it sounds like the people he hires are a bunch of entitled brats if they go so far as to demand tips. Our society is so screwed up over the tipping system, that now there is an ever-increasing "minimum tip". Minimum tip, isn't that an oxymoron? I understand trying to rip people off, or doing deals in bad faith, but tipping is not a matter of being a good or bad person.

I'll be glad when more restaurants get rid of tipping, as many have recently. There was an article on MSN the other day (can't find it now) about a restaurant that banned tips, and instead negotiated contracts with their employees. The starting salary for the servers ended up being around $35k, and all employees accepted. Any tips they do receive are donated to charity. This article is also an interesting read http://www.slate.com/articles/life/culturebox/2013/08/tipless_restaurants_the_linkery_s_owner_explains_why_abolishing_tipping.html

It pisses me off when people believe tipping is required or else you are a terrible person. And then this guy goes one step further and demands that people tip a minimum amount, as if tips were not designed to reward based on performance. It's not charity, bud.

Sounds like someone's just trying to justify being a cheap fuck.  I definitely would not want to be friends with someone who didn't leave a tip despite decent service.  Sure, if the servers are making a good salary, there isn't a need to tip, but many servers make below min wage and depend on tips to make it to at or above min wage.  It's unfortunate consumers subsidize the cheapness of employers, but that doesn't justify stiffing the server. 

If you don't want to tip, then don't patronize sit down restaurants!   

kathrynd

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2015, 12:42:59 AM »
Quote
Because we have a family credit card (My parents each have one, and me and my sister have one for emergencies, or to buy myself a birthday present, etc.) whenever we go out to eat I always make sure that I'm the one that gets the bill so that way I know the server is getting a proper tip. If he gets the bill before I can get it, I'll even try to fill it in for him too. I like to say I'll do it because that way he doesn't need to get out his glasses.

One of the comments... HOLY FUCK ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Wearing the righteous cape of being the good person because they are tipping more when they are doing it with daddy's credit card. How about you earn your own money and tip with it instead of rushing to pay with money that is not yours so you can give more away.

I had a similar reaction.
It's always easier to be generous when someone else is paying.


kathrynd

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2015, 12:46:49 AM »
There is a huge difference between being frugal and being a cheap jerkwad.  I am frugal, but I never treat people badly or refuse to pay what I owe in order to save a dollar.
Very good point!  However, I might be a jerk if I had to eat baked beans from a can for lunch every day.  Ick.  I hate baked beans.  The thought of eating them cold makes me cringe.

I love baked beans, and I took them work a lot.
In a container and heated them up in the microwave.

The only way I like them cold, is over a tossed salad, with grated cheddar over top, topped with ranch dressing ....yummm

auntie_betty

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2015, 10:30:12 AM »
Am I the only one who wondered where the grave with all the money in it was?

YoungInvestor

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2015, 07:35:49 PM »
That article is right in every way. I don't think it targets frugal people: it really is about cheap f*cks

If you're someone who passes every opportunity to eat lunch with your colleagues because you can't fork over 20 bucks once in a while instead of eating beans every day, people notice and see you as someone who won't socialize.

If you come out to a restaurant and won't tip, people will also not like you if they notice.

I didn't get the feeling that he was bundling frugal living with being a cheap f*ck at all. The latter is a tiny subsection of the former, and yes, I believe it should be avoided.

MgoSam

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2015, 07:45:40 PM »
That article is right in every way. I don't think it targets frugal people: it really is about cheap f*cks

If you're someone who passes every opportunity to eat lunch with your colleagues because you can't fork over 20 bucks once in a while instead of eating beans every day, people notice and see you as someone who won't socialize.

If you come out to a restaurant and won't tip, people will also not like you if they notice.

I didn't get the feeling that he was bundling frugal living with being a cheap f*ck at all. The latter is a tiny subsection of the former, and yes, I believe it should be avoided.

That's a great point! When reading "The House of Morgan," a biography into the Morgan banking family, and later about JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley, it talks about a British banker that was earning something ridiculous like 100,000 pounds (back in 1810) but living on 10,0000. He had an office boy that he would have buy him an apple for lunch each day and the book mentioned how the boy always wanted a tip but the banker would always demand the change back. This really struck me.

Datastache

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2015, 08:32:33 PM »
If the author weren't conflating sensible frugality with inconsiderate cheapness, the article would be spot-on. The latter is definitely something to avoid. The former is great.

Scandium

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2015, 12:06:04 PM »
Quote
I have heard of a funeral where the children were so sick of their CF father that they threw cash into the grave as the casket was being lowered. “Here’s your f---ing money,” they said.

I don't know, that's sounds pretty awesome to me. I want my funeral to be like that.

mm1970

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2015, 01:53:59 PM »
Quote
My dad is kind of a CF. Whenever we go out to eat, and even when we have a bunch of people with us, he will never tip more than 15%. And then that's also on the pre tax amount, and also discounts drinks still I'm pretty sure.

Because we have a family credit card (My parents each have one, and me and my sister have one for emergencies, or to buy myself a birthday present, etc.) whenever we go out to eat I always make sure that I'm the one that gets the bill so that way I know the server is getting a proper tip. If he gets the bill before I can get it, I'll even try to fill it in for him too. I like to say I'll do it because that way he doesn't need to get out his glasses.

Well, so many things to say here, aside from the "family credit card" - ugh.

First, my parents (mom/stepdad) used to be cheap too.  Meaning, they didn't go out much so the really really didn't realize how much you are supposed to tip at restaurants.  Now this is back in the "dark ages" when 15% was standard and they'd barely leave 10%.  So I would always add more - started off by sneaking it in there, then they asked me about it.  I pointed out that servers don't make minimum wage and you are supposed to tip 15% on decent service.  So, they started tipping correctly.

Second, I understand people who are frustrated with tipping.  However, tipping, for many many decades now, has been standard and expected.  If you are not willing to tip at a sit-down restaurant, then you shouldn't eat out.  Period.

However, I do have some sympathy.  I am still somewhat confused about how now it's "standard" to tip 20-25% instead of 15%, and WTF about the guy above mentioning before taxes.  Standard tip is, in fact, before taxes.  (In fact, in a place with 8.75% tax, it's easy to just double the tax to calculate the tip).

I also get peeved with smoothie places, takeout places, coffee shops. etc, and their tip jars.  Note: I worked in fast food, I did not get tips.  I currently live in CA, and servers and everyone get minimum wage, at least.

Not that we go out that much.  We don't.  Well, turns out we went out way too much last year - lot of fast food - but that was more spouse/kids than me.

MgoSam

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2015, 02:57:12 PM »

Second, I understand people who are frustrated with tipping.  However, tipping, for many many decades now, has been standard and expected.  If you are not willing to tip at a sit-down restaurant, then you shouldn't eat out.  Period.


+1

I used to have a friend that refused to tip because he "didn't believe in it," my friends had a solution, we wouldn't sit with him.

kathrynd

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2015, 09:55:35 PM »
I HATE tipping.
I do it..but I hate it.

Whether I spend $10 or $20 on my meal, it doesn't require the waitress/waiter to do any more work.
I leave the same amount of tip regardless...unless the service is really poor, then they get nothing.

Saying I shouldn't eat at a restaurant unless I am willing to tip is absurd.
Whatever deal the owner and employees make between them, has nothing to do with me.

If they don't like it, they can get a different job.
My children all work in minimum wage jobs, and they don't receive tips...nor complain about it.


YoungInvestor

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2015, 10:38:44 PM »
I HATE tipping.
I do it..but I hate it.

Whether I spend $10 or $20 on my meal, it doesn't require the waitress/waiter to do any more work.
I leave the same amount of tip regardless...unless the service is really poor, then they get nothing.

Saying I shouldn't eat at a restaurant unless I am willing to tip is absurd.
Whatever deal the owner and employees make between them, has nothing to do with me.

If they don't like it, they can get a different job.
My children all work in minimum wage jobs, and they don't receive tips...nor complain about it.

Tipping culture is an understanding that you are responsible for the service part of the cost of the meal. You could get billed 15% more and not have to tip, but this option lets you have a bit more latitude.

Anyway, I'm not expecting you to change that choice
, but thought I'd drop this here. Servers at costly restaurants generally have less tables, and spend more time on each one, which is why tipping a % amount is the usual way to go.

kathrynd

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2015, 10:44:15 PM »
I HATE tipping.
I do it..but I hate it.

Whether I spend $10 or $20 on my meal, it doesn't require the waitress/waiter to do any more work.
I leave the same amount of tip regardless...unless the service is really poor, then they get nothing.

Saying I shouldn't eat at a restaurant unless I am willing to tip is absurd.
Whatever deal the owner and employees make between them, has nothing to do with me.

If they don't like it, they can get a different job.
My children all work in minimum wage jobs, and they don't receive tips...nor complain about it.

Tipping culture is an understanding that you are responsible for the service part of the cost of the meal. You could get billed 15% more and not have to tip, but this option lets you have a bit more latitude.

Anyway, I'm not expecting you to change that choice
, but thought I'd drop this here. Servers at costly restaurants generally have less tables, and spend more time on each one, which is why tipping a % amount is the usual way to go.

I wish all restaurants would increase their prices and abolish tipping.

I live in Canada, and we tip
I also spend a lot of time each year in Australia (7-8 months a year)and you don't tip...like this much better

Scandium

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2015, 12:49:50 PM »
I HATE tipping.
I do it..but I hate it.

Whether I spend $10 or $20 on my meal, it doesn't require the waitress/waiter to do any more work.
I leave the same amount of tip regardless...unless the service is really poor, then they get nothing.

Saying I shouldn't eat at a restaurant unless I am willing to tip is absurd.
Whatever deal the owner and employees make between them, has nothing to do with me.

If they don't like it, they can get a different job.
My children all work in minimum wage jobs, and they don't receive tips...nor complain about it.

Tipping culture is an understanding that you are responsible for the service part of the cost of the meal. You could get billed 15% more and not have to tip, but this option lets you have a bit more latitude.

Anyway, I'm not expecting you to change that choice
, but thought I'd drop this here. Servers at costly restaurants generally have less tables, and spend more time on each one, which is why tipping a % amount is the usual way to go.

I wish all restaurants would increase their prices and abolish tipping.

I live in Canada, and we tip
I also spend a lot of time each year in Australia (7-8 months a year)and you don't tip...like this much better
I thought I felt this way but after a few more encounters with extremely slow and/or rude waiters in northern Europe, where there is little tipping, I've changed my mind. Having to walk up and ask if we could be allowed to order soon and being forgotten about I decided I like a system that encourage the staff to please the customer.

The high minimum wage and laws making it near impossible to fire bad staff probably don't help.

innerscorecard

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2015, 11:16:22 PM »
I HATE tipping.
I do it..but I hate it.

Whether I spend $10 or $20 on my meal, it doesn't require the waitress/waiter to do any more work.
I leave the same amount of tip regardless...unless the service is really poor, then they get nothing.

Saying I shouldn't eat at a restaurant unless I am willing to tip is absurd.
Whatever deal the owner and employees make between them, has nothing to do with me.

If they don't like it, they can get a different job.
My children all work in minimum wage jobs, and they don't receive tips...nor complain about it.

Tipping culture is an understanding that you are responsible for the service part of the cost of the meal. You could get billed 15% more and not have to tip, but this option lets you have a bit more latitude.

Anyway, I'm not expecting you to change that choice
, but thought I'd drop this here. Servers at costly restaurants generally have less tables, and spend more time on each one, which is why tipping a % amount is the usual way to go.

I wish all restaurants would increase their prices and abolish tipping.

I live in Canada, and we tip
I also spend a lot of time each year in Australia (7-8 months a year)and you don't tip...like this much better
I thought I felt this way but after a few more encounters with extremely slow and/or rude waiters in northern Europe, where there is little tipping, I've changed my mind. Having to walk up and ask if we could be allowed to order soon and being forgotten about I decided I like a system that encourage the staff to please the customer.

The high minimum wage and laws making it near impossible to fire bad staff probably don't help.

If you think service in Europe is bad, you should come to China. It really shows how incentives matter.

kathrynd

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2015, 12:00:14 AM »
no...you show with your feet.

Get up and walk out.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 06:40:44 AM by kathrynd »

mwulff

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2015, 12:39:50 AM »
As a northern european that has travelled a lot in the United States I see the situation a little differently.

Service in many US restaurants is fast, and by that I mean insanely fast. From sitting down to being asked what you want takes seconds. When you finish your food the plate disappears instantly. For me this adds up to a very stressfull situation. Everywhere I had the same feeling of a restaurant that operated at the speed of sound, not really a pleasent thing if you are not used to it. After a 4 week trip I had somewhat gotten used to it, but it was never completely comfortable.

In many european places a casual and relaxed pace is considered a better service and experience. But I can understand why it seems like bad service.

For instance in Scandinavia it would be considered rude if the waiter did not allow you 3-5 minutes to get seated and chat with your friends. A little less if you are a couple arriving together.

As for tipping. I despise the tipping, tell me upfront what my meal will cost and show me upfront if there is a service-charge.

Don't leave me with the job of deciding what is appropriate for this particular restaurant, server, foodtype, culture, area and so on.

kathrynd

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2015, 04:13:57 AM »
I agree, allow people time to look over the menu..otherwise I'll say politely..I need a few more minutes.

GuitarStv

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2015, 06:27:58 AM »
Tipping culture is an understanding that you are responsible for the service part of the cost of the meal. You could get billed 15% more and not have to tip, but this option lets you have a bit more latitude.

Except that that's really not true is it?  You don't have any latitude.  Even for terrible service, most people will think of you as a cheapass for leaving less than 15-25%.

kathrynd

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2015, 06:43:35 AM »
Well, that is silly isn't it.

Tipping is supposed to be a gratuity...
and not expected.


Sibley

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2015, 02:36:44 PM »
I believe MMM wrote a post addressing the difference between frugal and cheap.

Frugal = good
Cheap = bad

Alabaster

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2015, 08:22:23 PM »
Did anyone else get hung up on this idea that 15% is a bad tip?

REALLY? 15% is a very nice mark up.  You have some real room there if you're doing good volume.

To those more spending inclined, I have but one defense: I don't really go to full service restaurants. Generally, I avoid any place I think might have an expectation of a tip. I think they are silly because I think that should be factored into the advertised cost. 

If I'm out with family, I accept that I need to tip. But my standard is 15% and I stand by it. 10% is a solid mark up, 15% is a pretty big mark up, 20% starts to get a bit ridiculous. BUT I do know that it is expected (it shouldn't be, but if I'm going to go out...) so I'll even tip 20% if the service is really good.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:24:49 PM by Alabaster »

Alabaster

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2015, 08:36:04 PM »

That article is right in every way. I don't think it targets frugal people: it really is about cheap f*cks

If you're someone who passes every opportunity to eat lunch with your colleagues because you can't fork over 20 bucks once in a while instead of eating beans every day, people notice and see you as someone who won't socialize.

If you come out to a restaurant and won't tip, people will also not like you if they notice.

I didn't get the feeling that he was bundling frugal living with being a cheap f*ck at all. The latter is a tiny subsection of the former, and yes, I believe it should be avoided.

That's a great point! When reading "The House of Morgan," a biography into the Morgan banking family, and later about JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley, it talks about a British banker that was earning something ridiculous like 100,000 pounds (back in 1810) but living on 10,0000. He had an office boy that he would have buy him an apple for lunch each day and the book mentioned how the boy always wanted a tip but the banker would always demand the change back. This really struck me.

You know, I always took away a different message from those biographies... many of those 'captains of industry' or 'robber barrens' started with very little and ended up with way, way more than they needed because they were ambitious, hard working, had incredible attention to detail, and had high expectations.

Quote
John D.'s ledger took on a special role of being a kind of conscience, I would say. He recorded his contributions to various causes -- to church, every penny that he gave to a poor little girl he saw on the street, to abolitionist causes. And he would use this throughout his life as a way of evaluating himself.
Quote
"The poor man's light," as John D. called it, would bring a brilliant glow into American homes. The soaring demand for it, he was convinced, would make him rich. "I shall never forget how hungry I was in those days," he later wrote. "I ran up and down the tops of freight cars ... I hurried up the boys." Obsessed with the business of oil, he mastered every detail, developed new products to sell. By age 25, his refinery was one of the largest in the world. "
source

I never really wanted to be one of them - for many reasons. But that sense of really being on top of your business was something I always thought respectable.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:40:20 PM by Alabaster »

capital

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2015, 09:44:12 PM »
Well, that is silly isn't it.

Tipping is supposed to be a gratuity...
and not expected.
Be that as it may, servers are paid $2.13 an hour and expected to make the rest from tips. So it is, in fact, expected.

mbk

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2015, 12:09:19 AM »

That's the thing that really bugged me about that thread. It's the conflation of spending money and being mean or nice. A lot of people who spend a lot of money otherwise are not pleasant to service workers and are nasty in general. And a lot of frugal people are generous to service workers and are pleasant people to be around.

I concur with that. I have an elderly friend who is very generous to service staff and to friends in need, but on himself, he rarely spends. I first learned the lessons of frugality from him. On the other hand, my rich uncle and his family are a stingy bunch and freeloaders.

kathrynd

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2015, 04:13:11 AM »
Well, that is silly isn't it.

Tipping is supposed to be a gratuity...
and not expected.
Be that as it may, servers are paid $2.13 an hour and expected to make the rest from tips. So it is, in fact, expected.

Not in Canada, they aren't.

greaper007

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2015, 10:06:54 AM »
As someone that's lived on tips during my lifetime, I always tip 20% unless the server is a douche.   I can even accept a bit of incompetence if someone is kind, but if you suck and you're a jerk then I won't tip well.   I don't often tip, because I don't often go out to bars or restaurants.   We all know how little servers make and that not, or under tipping makes you a complete a-hole.

So if you don't want to tip there's a fantastic solution.    Stay away from places where you have to tip.     Eat at home, drink beer on your patio, go to golf courses that let you carry your own bag (former caddy here).    No one is forcing you to go to these places, so just stay away.    I might be in a place that I have to tip once every 2 months or so.    It's not difficult to stay away.

lisahi

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2015, 10:55:17 AM »
The article would make its point a lot better if he didn't include the ideas of bringing your own lunch to work or clipping coupons. Neither means you are a CF. They're both concepts of frugality, not a lack of generosity. Remove both those incorrect examples of cheap f--kery, and his point is better made.

Frankly, his co-workers spending $20 for lunch every day are idiots. There is a huge difference between being a stingy tipper or ensuring that you pay absolutely no more than you have to on a shared meal bill and wasting your money on overpriced restaurant food.

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2015, 11:01:02 AM »
Be that as it may, servers are paid $2.13 an hour and expected to make the rest from tips. So it is, in fact, expected.
In many cases, they are even taxed on an assumed level of gratuities that they may or may not make. Stiffing them entirely is thus literally taking money away from them.

mdc

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2015, 11:14:03 AM »
I HATE tipping.
I do it..but I hate it.

Whether I spend $10 or $20 on my meal, it doesn't require the waitress/waiter to do any more work.
I leave the same amount of tip regardless...unless the service is really poor, then they get nothing.

Saying I shouldn't eat at a restaurant unless I am willing to tip is absurd.
Whatever deal the owner and employees make between them, has nothing to do with me.

If they don't like it, they can get a different job.
My children all work in minimum wage jobs, and they don't receive tips...nor complain about it.

Tipping culture is an understanding that you are responsible for the service part of the cost of the meal. You could get billed 15% more and not have to tip, but this option lets you have a bit more latitude.
I wasn't brought up in/don't live in the US, and I'd probably follow whatever was the norm if I lived there, but I find tips like that baffling precisely because I can't see how the service is possibly worth that much. If I'm with someone and we spend 50 EUR, 15-25% is 7.5-12.5EUR. That's easily an hour's wage on its own, even if the restaurant were paying nothing and the waiter was not serving any other tables!

zephyr911

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2015, 01:45:17 PM »
I wasn't brought up in/don't live in the US, and I'd probably follow whatever was the norm if I lived there, but I find tips like that baffling precisely because I can't see how the service is possibly worth that much. If I'm with someone and we spend 50 EUR, 15-25% is 7.5-12.5EUR. That's easily an hour's wage on its own, even if the restaurant were paying nothing and the waiter was not serving any other tables!
The only difference between the US and Europe is that more of the cost of service is built into the price of the meal where you're from. It really has nothing to do with different costs for service... it's all in how it's categorized and presented. So what you should be saying is, you didn't realize service cost this much until you saw it as a separate charge. Let me explain.
Most servers are responsible for substantial quantities of work besides directly serving you. It's generally referred to as side work, and includes rolling silverware up in napkins, setting up dining areas, staging kitchen supplies, and myriad other tasks, performed during or after their shifts. In addition to that, they're on the clock for a whole shift whether they have one table or 10, or none, and it costs the restaurant money to have them there, even if they're just waiting to do some work. While all these costs are not directly associated with the service provided to you by that waiter, they are still part of the cost of doing business, and without charging you for them, the restaurant would fail.
Because most people don't understand or appreciate these background realities in the US, where servers make about $2/hr and often get negative paychecks after taxes, most servers don't take home great wages, even with a high nominal tipping rate, and research indicates nearly no correlation between quality of service and tip percentage. It's one more reason I would strongly support higher restaurant wages and lower tips - it's a more honest way of doing business, and it ensures servers don't get screwed after doing their best.

caliq

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2015, 02:05:32 PM »
I wasn't brought up in/don't live in the US, and I'd probably follow whatever was the norm if I lived there, but I find tips like that baffling precisely because I can't see how the service is possibly worth that much. If I'm with someone and we spend 50 EUR, 15-25% is 7.5-12.5EUR. That's easily an hour's wage on its own, even if the restaurant were paying nothing and the waiter was not serving any other tables!
The only difference between the US and Europe is that more of the cost of service is built into the price of the meal where you're from. It really has nothing to do with different costs for service... it's all in how it's categorized and presented. So what you should be saying is, you didn't realize service cost this much until you saw it as a separate charge. Let me explain.
Most servers are responsible for substantial quantities of work besides directly serving you. It's generally referred to as side work, and includes rolling silverware up in napkins, setting up dining areas, staging kitchen supplies, and myriad other tasks, performed during or after their shifts. In addition to that, they're on the clock for a whole shift whether they have one table or 10, or none, and it costs the restaurant money to have them there, even if they're just waiting to do some work. While all these costs are not directly associated with the service provided to you by that waiter, they are still part of the cost of doing business, and without charging you for them, the restaurant would fail.
Because most people don't understand or appreciate these background realities in the US, where servers make about $2/hr and often get negative paychecks after taxes, most servers don't take home great wages, even with a high nominal tipping rate, and research indicates nearly no correlation between quality of service and tip percentage. It's one more reason I would strongly support higher restaurant wages and lower tips - it's a more honest way of doing business, and it ensures servers don't get screwed after doing their best.

Servers also have to 'tip out' -- give a certain % of their nightly gross tips to the busboys and bartenders and possibly other positions (I've never worked in a restaurant so I'm not sure of the exact details).  So you're basically tipping the entire restaurant staff, not just your specific server.

kathrynd

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2015, 02:30:05 AM »
Tip if you want to.

Don't tip, if you don't want to.

The restaurant employees work are not my concern.
They took that job voluntarily.
If they don't like it leave.

How about the furniture (and other) sales people, who rely on commission sales....do you tip them?
Of course you don't.
Then again...maybe the Americans here do.


zephyr911

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Re: Wall Street Oasis poster renounces former frugality
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2015, 07:05:30 AM »
Tip if you want to.

Don't tip, if you don't want to.

The restaurant employees work are not my concern.
They took that job voluntarily.
If they don't like it leave.
Thank you for your insights, Ms. Rand. As long as we're all clear that the system would fail to operate if everyone took that approach, you're more than welcome to practice it. Please inspect your food closely for stray hairs and saliva once the word gets out. ;)
Quote
How about the furniture (and other) sales people, who rely on commission sales....do you tip them?
Of course you don't.
That's quite disingenuous. The salesperson's commission is guaranteed, while the server will make nothing, or even less than nothing, if tipped 0% and taxed on an assumed higher value.
I don't like the system we have, but as long as it is in place, it is downright inhuman to pretend it's not in place.