Author Topic: Walking home from school and The Role of Language in Sexist Culture and Behavior  (Read 38217 times)

bikebum

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #100 on: June 07, 2014, 10:43:38 PM »
Instead of pussy say coward.   It describes how someone is behaving without putting down a group of people.

But that's not funny. How about candy-ass? Or chicken-shit? Those are bona fide replacements.

GuitarStv

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #101 on: June 08, 2014, 10:43:42 AM »
Instead of pussy say coward.   It describes how someone is behaving without putting down a group of people.

But that's not funny. How about candy-ass? Or chicken-shit? Those are bona fide replacements.

I'm pretty sure that everyone would be fine with wiener.

randymarsh

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #102 on: June 08, 2014, 12:24:56 PM »
The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.

lol wut

Got it: everything bad is because of men.

There are plenty of women who hold sexist views, and believe it or not, it's not because of men!

Groups in power positions can't really claim discrimination, racism, sexism etc.    That's like a CEO whining that her employees are mean to her.    The point of discrimination is that it puts negative views on groups of people that don't hold power positions.   

Huh? Just because someone holds a position of power, that doesn't mean they can't be harmed by discrimination. I'm having trouble following your logic. A CEO shouldn't complain if employees are mean to her because she's a CEO and has power. But because this CEO is a woman and women are always oppressed, she can complain? I'm not really sure what you're saying.

There are plenty of situations where men are discriminated against. They're allowed to complain about it. Or are you saying that men, because they've traditionally had more power and wealth, should just shut up and get over it? Sounds like you're suggesting they should "toughen up". Pretty sexist IMO.

bikebum

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #103 on: June 08, 2014, 03:13:36 PM »
Maybe women want to work less. Plenty of women want to be house wives or stay-at-home-moms. You probably think I am wrong
I don't necessarily think that this isn't partly true...

But supposing it's true, why do women want to work less and earn less? It's not like having woman-parts should cause anyone to eschew lucrative careers... women are human beings, so (like men) they often want what they are told to want. And we collectively keep telling women to want to work less, stay at home, be a housewife and raise children. And we collectively keep telling men to want to earn more and aim for the top. It's still sexist.

Sure, there are lots of reasons for the gender wage gap. (So far we've identified three.) But however it's explained, the explanation is either going to acknowledge sexism, or be an example of it.


If women do want to work less, I don't know why. And if I offer an explanation, you will say I'm being sexist. Accept my religion, or you are going to hell! :P


Quote
It could be argued that it is sexist that men are looked down upon for being stay-at-home-dads, or that it is embarrassing if a man's wife makes more money than him.
I agree! Those things are totally sexist... against women. These are two examples of men being judged for taking an "inferior" role which "should be" taken by a woman. The sexism is the implication that they ought to take the "superior" role because they are a man.

The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.

That's based on the opinion that one role is inferior to the other. If you don't think that, it's pretty symmetric. The sexist part is that men and women are expected to fill different rolls, and they are looked down upon for not doing so. There are other things that men bitch about as being sexist against men, many involve the courts. I'm not going to list them because defending them is not the point. Point is, both genders are whiny bitches. In the spirit of re-appropriation: we need to grow some vagina!
But you don't have a reason why women "want" to work less nor any evidence that they do, why would you assume the answer is they want ti?  One reason could be gender wage gap.  I took a large time off than my husband because neither of us have parental leave pay and he made more so we had save up less for me to be out then him.

I'm not assuming that; I threw it out as a possibility. I think there are too many unknowns to claim sexism. That view is not sexist.
Except that this is an entire field of research (that has been going for over 30 years, to my knowledge, probably longer but I refuse to go into the stacks without a damn good reason), and they have determined the "reason".  And that reason is a inherent gender bias (psych/soc people don't call it sexism, lol) and the effects of that bias.  For example women who did succeed in the generation prior often worked more hours than the men (so you look at the hours put in by a female dean/chair/higher level tenure (I assume C level as well but not my interest so I don't know for certain) and it is higher than the average male in the same position).  That means that they expect more out of those in the next generation, which means those who want work life balance often go with male investigators if they have choice (because the men expect hour similar to their own, in the same way as the females) And who gets the choice? The top students.  So you have two PIs working the same hours, but the females are working more service hours (required by the chair, and that fact is supported by research which again I can post on Monday) so less research hours, they often get not the pick of grad students or post docs (ones doing most of the research) which means more hand holding which means again less bench work for PI and all of that, combined with inherit bias when picking tenure faculty equal less promotions for females. 
So, do we assume it is just women want this, or do we follow what research shows?  Which is that they are fighting against not only an external bias but an internal one because we have women and men as children that men jobs are one kind and women jobs are another kind and being a stay at home parent or a part time parent is a female possibility not a male. 
Based on my job throwing out ideas that don't come from previous evidence bothers me.  Especially when even the question is phrased in a subtle sexist way.  Now, given the demographics on this board, I assume you are male.  Most males are not THAT subtle so I assume that it was not an international phrasing.  Which just goes to show the biggest issue.  People are not educated about this, we don't want to admit our prejudices and then we do subtle things that still affect our culture in that way.

It's OK to throw around possibilities when you are challenging a claim. The burden is on the person making the claim to figure this stuff out. Maybe I should have said "I don't have good reason to believe our society is sexist" instead of "I think we are very close to gender equality." When I said that, it wasn't to make a claim, it was to give a background of my thoughts and why I don't see calling someone a pussy as sexist.

Why would you be upset that I don't acknowledge something I don't see? I don't care that you think our society is sexist, but I object to the idea that I am sexist for not agreeing with you. That's like when a religious person tries to convert somebody, then tells them they are a sinner for not accepting it.

BTW, I browsed the article you posted from Jezebel. That language is disgusting. If I new a person who talked like that, I'd try to get them psychological help. They are serious about what they are saying and are crossing the line. It is specific and violent, totally different category than the jokes I was talking about. Yes, there is a line and it's not hard for people to see it, in my experience. No, I don't think pussy jokes lead to that language or those ideas. Those guys live in their own world.

What is the first part I put in bold referring to?

Is it sexist to say most males are not that subtle? I don't know what is and what is not.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 03:42:35 PM by bikebum »

bikebum

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #104 on: June 08, 2014, 03:15:57 PM »
Instead of pussy say coward.   It describes how someone is behaving without putting down a group of people.

But that's not funny. How about candy-ass? Or chicken-shit? Those are bona fide replacements.

I'm pretty sure that everyone would be fine with wiener.

I'm fine with it, but many guys would probably figure if that is OK, "pussy" is OK too.

mm1970

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2014, 04:07:35 PM »
Hello everybody, long-time lurker here! I am surprised that the idea of a huge gender wage gap is so heavily supported in a community where people also believe their portfolio of companies will work ruthlessly and tirelessly to maximize profit for their shareholders. Many of us invest in index funds containing those companies in the hopes of funding our retirement. If the gap was so pervasive in every field regardless of other factors besides gender, companies would be paying 23% more just to employ a man instead of a woman who could do the job just as well. Just one company would see this and they'd hire as many women as it could get away with to crush their competition. Since labor is a large percentage of business costs, companies could add entire percentage points to their profit margins by making that one change. No good company would walk away from that much profit and I would not wish to invest in a company incompetent enough to ignore it.

Contrary to what the BLS says in its own report, you CAN largely dismiss the wage gap by accounting for other factors such as marital status, hours worked, and children by using the data it provided (see link 1). The gap shrinks to 4.2% for women that never married without considering anything else. Just for being under the age of 35, the gap shrinks to 9.8%. Women actually make 5.3% more than men at 1-35 hours worked and 11.3% more than men at 35-39 hours regardless of age, marital status, or children. (see page 41 of BLS report). Men make 14.5% more than women as full time employees but more men choose to work 41+ hours a week. The full time gap could be because women become stay at home moms more frequently and lose years of raises and experience when re-entering the work force or prefer part time employment to watch any children. Since there are no numbers to back that up, take it with a grain of salt. Anywho, check out the first link and compare it with the BLS report if you don't believe the numbers. The thing that surprised me the most was the impact of married vs. unmarried which had gaps of 23.4% and 4.2% respectively. I thought children would have the largest impact but that was not the case.

1.  http://www.aei-ideas.org/2014/04/once-you-impose-the-ceteris-paribus-condition-the-alleged-23-gender-pay-gap-starts-to-evaporate/
2.  http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswom2012.pdf

Back on topic, it largely depends on how old the son was. I could understand giving the fine to the father if the son was around 5-7 because even when I was in school, the safety squad that I took part in as a child would at least walk kindergartners to their home streets and that was only 12 years ago. I think the bigger question we should all be asking is why the father is driving his car a mile to pick up his son when he could be biking in tropical paradise instead? :)
Two things stand out, in the "can largely be dismissed" comment here:
4.2% unmarried gap
23.4% married gap.

At my level, being married, that's $23,000 a year.
I think that's significant.

mm1970

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #106 on: June 08, 2014, 04:15:57 PM »
Quote
But you don't have a reason why women "want" to work less nor any evidence that they do, why would you assume the answer is they want ti?  One reason could be gender wage gap.  I took a large time off than my husband because neither of us have parental leave pay and he made more so we had save up less for me to be out then him. 
Well, I can tell you.

When I had my first kid, I wanted to work part time because I was exhausted.  Nursing, pumping, working full time, not sleeping, it was awful.
When I had my second kid I did the same for awhile, but went back full time faster.  I was working towards a promotion with my boss, taking on more responsibility, etc. etc.
But upper management nixed it.  They refused my boss's request for my raise. Reorganized me out of my position.  And then...over the space of 6 months I found myself in a spot where I'd been doing all of this extra work, taken on more responsibility, seeing the two newer engineers (male) making 20% more than me.  Because you know, when you hire someone in from outside you have to pay them the  market rate (not just me getting screwed, my male coworkers too).

So imagine that you are burning the candle at both ends and upper management gives you the finger like that.  So yeah, I decided to work less.  It's one thing to be recognized for your effort and accomplishments.  If not recognized?  Well, then I guess I decided if I wasn't going to be paid what the job I was doing is worth, I would turn my job into something that matches the pay.

warfreak2

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #107 on: June 08, 2014, 04:22:46 PM »
Maybe I should have said "I don't have good reason to believe our society is sexist"

[...]

Why would you be upset that I don't acknowledge something I don't see? I don't care that you think our society is sexist, but I object to the idea that I am sexist for not agreeing with you.
The problem is that you are either ignorant or dismissive of the mountainous testimony of women who describe their experiences of sexism. Either you don't listen to women talk about it, or you think they are wrong - otherwise you would have plenty of good reasons to believe that sexism is still widespread.

Like, I've never seen the Taj Mahal, but it would be pretty darn stupid to say I have no good reason to believe it exists. This is like that, except the people whose experiences you're ignoring or dismissing are exclusively women, so hopefully you can see why you might be accused of sexism...

bikebum

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #108 on: June 08, 2014, 04:36:50 PM »
Maybe I should have said "I don't have good reason to believe our society is sexist"

[...]

Why would you be upset that I don't acknowledge something I don't see? I don't care that you think our society is sexist, but I object to the idea that I am sexist for not agreeing with you.
The problem is that you are either ignorant or dismissive of the mountainous testimony of women who describe their experiences of sexism. Either you don't listen to women talk about it, or you think they are wrong - otherwise you would have plenty of good reasons to believe that sexism is still widespread.

Like, I've never seen the Taj Mahal, but it would be pretty darn stupid to say I have no good reason to believe it exists. This is like that, except the people whose experiences you're ignoring or dismissing are exclusively women, so hopefully you can see why you might be accused of sexism...

Nah, I don't buy it when men say it either. And this isn't the Taj Mahal, this is a concept. It's more like saying I don't have a reason to believe that trickle-down economics works. It's complicated; people have different criteria and views of it.

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #109 on: June 08, 2014, 04:41:23 PM »
Maybe women want to work less. Plenty of women want to be house wives or stay-at-home-moms. You probably think I am wrong
I don't necessarily think that this isn't partly true...

But supposing it's true, why do women want to work less and earn less? It's not like having woman-parts should cause anyone to eschew lucrative careers... women are human beings, so (like men) they often want what they are told to want. And we collectively keep telling women to want to work less, stay at home, be a housewife and raise children. And we collectively keep telling men to want to earn more and aim for the top. It's still sexist.

Sure, there are lots of reasons for the gender wage gap. (So far we've identified three.) But however it's explained, the explanation is either going to acknowledge sexism, or be an example of it.


If women do want to work less, I don't know why. And if I offer an explanation, you will say I'm being sexist. Accept my religion, or you are going to hell! :P


Quote
It could be argued that it is sexist that men are looked down upon for being stay-at-home-dads, or that it is embarrassing if a man's wife makes more money than him.
I agree! Those things are totally sexist... against women. These are two examples of men being judged for taking an "inferior" role which "should be" taken by a woman. The sexism is the implication that they ought to take the "superior" role because they are a man.

The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.

That's based on the opinion that one role is inferior to the other. If you don't think that, it's pretty symmetric. The sexist part is that men and women are expected to fill different rolls, and they are looked down upon for not doing so. There are other things that men bitch about as being sexist against men, many involve the courts. I'm not going to list them because defending them is not the point. Point is, both genders are whiny bitches. In the spirit of re-appropriation: we need to grow some vagina!
But you don't have a reason why women "want" to work less nor any evidence that they do, why would you assume the answer is they want ti?  One reason could be gender wage gap.  I took a large time off than my husband because neither of us have parental leave pay and he made more so we had save up less for me to be out then him.

I'm not assuming that; I threw it out as a possibility. I think there are too many unknowns to claim sexism. That view is not sexist.
Except that this is an entire field of research (that has been going for over 30 years, to my knowledge, probably longer but I refuse to go into the stacks without a damn good reason), and they have determined the "reason".  And that reason is a inherent gender bias (psych/soc people don't call it sexism, lol) and the effects of that bias.  For example women who did succeed in the generation prior often worked more hours than the men (so you look at the hours put in by a female dean/chair/higher level tenure (I assume C level as well but not my interest so I don't know for certain) and it is higher than the average male in the same position).  That means that they expect more out of those in the next generation, which means those who want work life balance often go with male investigators if they have choice (because the men expect hour similar to their own, in the same way as the females) And who gets the choice? The top students.  So you have two PIs working the same hours, but the females are working more service hours (required by the chair, and that fact is supported by research which again I can post on Monday) so less research hours, they often get not the pick of grad students or post docs (ones doing most of the research) which means more hand holding which means again less bench work for PI and all of that, combined with inherit bias when picking tenure faculty equal less promotions for females. 
So, do we assume it is just women want this, or do we follow what research shows?  Which is that they are fighting against not only an external bias but an internal one because we have women and men as children that men jobs are one kind and women jobs are another kind and being a stay at home parent or a part time parent is a female possibility not a male. 
Based on my job throwing out ideas that don't come from previous evidence bothers me.  Especially when even the question is phrased in a subtle sexist way.  Now, given the demographics on this board, I assume you are male.  Most males are not THAT subtle so I assume that it was not an international phrasing.  Which just goes to show the biggest issue.  People are not educated about this, we don't want to admit our prejudices and then we do subtle things that still affect our culture in that way.

It's OK to throw around possibilities when you are challenging a claim. The burden is on the person making the claim to figure this stuff out. Maybe I should have said "I don't have good reason to believe our society is sexist" instead of "I think we are very close to gender equality." When I said that, it wasn't to make a claim, it was to give a background of my thoughts and why I don't see calling someone a pussy as sexist.

Why would you be upset that I don't acknowledge something I don't see? I don't care that you think our society is sexist, but I object to the idea that I am sexist for not agreeing with you. That's like when a religious person tries to convert somebody, then tells them they are a sinner for not accepting it.

BTW, I browsed the article you posted from Jezebel. That language is disgusting. If I new a person who talked like that, I'd try to get them psychological help. They are serious about what they are saying and are crossing the line. It is specific and violent, totally different category than the jokes I was talking about. Yes, there is a line and it's not hard for people to see it, in my experience. No, I don't think pussy jokes lead to that language or those ideas. Those guys live in their own world.

What is the first part I put in bold referring to?

Is it sexist to say most males are not that subtle? I don't know what is and what is not.
It is not sexist to understand and comment on differences but it is sexist to assume ALL in that group have those characteristics (and that really is not efficient because it is wrong enough of the times).  A stupid example, most women are shorter than most men and are less strong.  However some women are stronger than some men.  So you would not put an ad for someone who needs to pick up 100lb as a male only job but you would put that the person needs to pick up 100lbs and it would not be unreasonable to assume the majority of the people who apply are male as long that does not stop you from accepting the females who apply.  Does that make sense?
To the rest of your point, it is not in a different category than what you said, it is just more extreme.  Those comment you made, contribute to a culture that allow those men to think their comments are ok.
Actually I classed you as sexist for your original comment and subsequent behavior, not the lack of being able to identify the sexism.  The not being able to identify it, is classed as privilege. 
You did not say, I think there are too many variables to declare this is just sexism (except that if you look up inhert bias and wage/hiring etc, you will see that that bias has been shown to result in both sexist and racist hiring and income gaps, so that tells me you just have not looked anything up), you said "maybe it is just women want to stay home" which predisposes that women want to more then men.  Not most women vs most men (though there has been no research I have seen to even to back that up, please link if you have) but ALL women vs ALL men.  That predisposition is by it's very nature a sexist conclusion.  Does that explain my comments more?
And just a side note, one way I keep myself safe is hearing the "little sexism" and avoiding the men who say them because those state sexist comments are correlated to those who sexually assault because both are correlated to a sexist belief system that makes women's consent not matter as much as a male's wants.  So, yes, your comments and beliefs do affect women around you, it is not harmless like believing a different religion.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 05:57:00 PM by Gin1984 »

bikebum

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #110 on: June 08, 2014, 05:28:18 PM »
Gin1984,

In the context of statistics, a statement like "men do X more than women" means on average. It doesn't mean "all." Isn't the "most" implied, since it is the case almost every time? When would you have a statistic that actually means "all"? Do you really think I meant ALL women want to work less was a possibility?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about jokes leading to harm. I wrote a bunch of stuff about that; you know what I think. Those men have their own fucked-up culture; I don't know where they got it.

My "lack of being able to identify sexism" is the reason for my "sexist" behavior. It is not really sexist, at worst un-informed. How do you know if I am privileged or not? Because I said I'm a white guy? Are ALL white guys privileged?

The religious people who try to convert others don't think it is harmless that they have a different, or no, religion. That is just your opinion, mine too obviously. My example is good.

You are experiencing a confirmation bias by avoiding men who joke a certain way. Any reason to stay away from more men is going to result in lower chances of being a victim. Also: correlation vs. causation.

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #111 on: June 08, 2014, 05:41:51 PM »
Gin1984,

In the context of statistics, a statement like "men do X more than women" means on average. It doesn't mean "all." Isn't the "most" implied, since it is the case almost every time? When would you have a statistic that actually means "all"? Do you really think I meant ALL women want to work less was a possibility?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about jokes leading to harm. I wrote a bunch of stuff about that; you know what I think. Those men have their own fucked-up culture; I don't know where they got it.

My "lack of being able to identify sexism" is the reason for my "sexist" behavior. It is not really sexist, at worst un-informed. How do you know if I am privileged or not? Because I said I'm a white guy? Are ALL white guys privileged?

The religious people who try to convert others don't think it is harmless that they have a different, or no, religion. That is just your opinion, mine too obviously. My example is good.

You are experiencing a confirmation bias by avoiding men who joke a certain way. Any reason to stay away from more men is going to result in lower chances of being a victim. Also: correlation vs. causation.
Actually research does agree with me that men that are sexist are more likely to assault, not all men assault and there are very much characteristics of the men who do.   Try googling on google scholar sexism and sexual assault and you will get thousands of research articles say such.  I am not avoiding men, I'd have to say that I have more male then female friends because of my profession and hobbies.  And, I don't have the belief that all men do such a horrid thing.  And again, you keep thinking this is a difference of opinion when your opinion is based on personal belief and no facts and mine is on over a generation of research.   It is like arguing with someone who is saying creationism is as valid as evolution because they are both "theories".  Honestly, I am not arguing with you, but bringing it out for others reading because I know that you are not going to get it.  You have made it very obvious.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 05:55:25 PM by Gin1984 »

GuitarStv

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #112 on: June 09, 2014, 05:47:16 AM »
I've been unable to find the study proving that occasional use of the word 'pussy' correlates to sexism and therefore sexual assault against women.  Could you provide it?

warfreak2

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #113 on: June 09, 2014, 07:57:06 AM »
Nah, I don't buy it when men say it either. And this isn't the Taj Mahal, this is a concept. It's more like saying I don't have a reason to believe that trickle-down economics works. It's complicated; people have different criteria and views of it.
So, lots of women's everyday experiences of sexism are not "a good reason" to believe in sexism because related experience can't establish the existence of abstract concepts like Winter, mutual funds and Lollapalooza.

But it's definitely not sexist, no Sir, because you don't just dismiss women who relate their experiences of sexism - you dismiss men who relate women's experiences of sexism, too.

Are ALL white guys privileged?
Too easy...

tmac

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The Role of Language in Sexist Culture and Behavior
« Reply #114 on: June 09, 2014, 08:26:44 AM »
Can the title of this thread be changed? My brain is rebelling at having to translate "walking home from school" to "the role of language in sexist culture and behavior" every time it pops up in the list.

warfreak2

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #115 on: June 09, 2014, 08:42:17 AM »
Not really, both of those links only apply to the United States and the second one doesn't bother with any sources so it is unlikely to stand up as a rigorous document. The original posted used the keyword all which means you also need to demonstrate that white males outside of the United States are privileged and that non-cisgendered white males are also privileged. You would also need to define what "white" means as well since it can change depending upon the culture group.
We were talking about the US, seeing as bikebum's claim that we already achieved (or were near to achieving) gender equality was specific to the US. But I literally just gave the first two plausible links I found on Google. If you want to know more about white privilege (which is not the same as male privilege or cis privilege, but the same advice applies) than a couple of basic introductions will tell you, feel free to look it up yourself. Bikebum obviously didn't.

I don't feel like I "need" to do any more than that to persuade anyone that a widely-understood, well-documented phenomenon exists; I certainly don't feel the need to defend claims that I didn't make. If bikebum really wants an answer to his question, rather than just something else to argue about, I will rest knowing that I showed him where the answer can be easily found.

bikebum

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #116 on: June 09, 2014, 08:49:34 AM »
But it's definitely not sexist, no Sir, because you don't just dismiss women who relate their experiences of sexism - you dismiss men who relate women's experiences of sexism, too.

And men's experiences of sexism against men too. That's what I meant.

warfreak2

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #117 on: June 09, 2014, 09:26:12 AM »
If sexism was just a few idiots who think their gender is better, and these idiots were about evenly distributed among men and women, then "society isn't sexist" would probably be a defensible position. But institutional sexism is pretty much exclusively against women, and invisibly benefits men. It's just inherently something that men don't experience - even when they benefit from it. Male privilege, like the other privileges, conveys a set of advantages which don't feel like advantages; they are just things that someone either doesn't notice that they benefit from, or assumes everyone benefits from. In fact, not having to acknowledge privilege is part of the package.

That's the problem. By denying institutional sexism, you're ignoring or dismissing the experiences of, pretty much exclusively, women.

warfreak2

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #118 on: June 09, 2014, 11:42:49 AM »
Are you sure you mean institutional sexism and not inherent bias or cultural sexism? Institutional sexism would mean that there are actual laws and policies that are being made to restrict the rights and privileges of men or women.
I propose a subtle but important change to your wording: "actual laws and policies that are being made to which restrict the rights and privileges". Otherwise we'll get bogged down in the idea that institutional sexism is the hidden intentions of policymakers, rather than results of their policies.

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In the United States most of the institutional sexism tends to benefit women (ex. women owned businesses) or the laws take measures to try and be gender neutral. Now this isn't to say that there aren't organizations that institutional sexism, but in aggregate it is a lot easier to find bias or cultural sexism that actual overt institutional sexism.
There are policies which explicitly benefit women, but these are generally bandaids trying to address much larger effects in the other direction. This isn't sexism - a policy of making sure you don't drive too much further North is not really directionally biased if you are already way North of where you're trying to go.

However, just because a policy doesn't explicitly mention a particular group, doesn't mean it isn't biased against that group.

  • Imagine if the response to the women's suffrage movement, instead of changing the law to "all adults can vote", was to change the law to "all salaried workers can vote". Seems gender-neutral, no? But at the time, the almost all salaried workers were men.
  • Imagine if the requirement for a high position in the government was a minimum of 20 years military service. Seems sexuality-neutral? But 20 years ago, how many military servicemembers were gay?
  • Imagine if, back in 1800, instead of "white people may buy and sell black people", the law were "landowners may buy and sell destitute people"? Sounds race-neutral? But it would have been practically the same policy!

Unfortunately, you can't only look at policies which mention particular groups when you're assessing institutional bias against those groups. It's not even just bigoted policymakers cleverly hiding discrimination with seemingly-neutral language (though it's hard to believe that this doesn't happen). Even if they have good intentions, when a group is disproportionately unrepresented amongst policymakers, policies will tend to discriminate against that group - simply because policymakers are mostly looking out only for the unintended consequences that would harm people like themselves, and they typically aren't very good at spotting unintended consequences that would harm others.

So, even identifying which institutional policies disproportionately harm women is probably an insurmountable task; that makes fixing the problem very difficult. However, observing the problem is very easy, without even looking at the actual policies, it's evident from the results.

bikebum

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #119 on: June 10, 2014, 01:09:01 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/quora/what-are-some-common-form_b_4473062.html

Don't get too caught up in the bullet points. The last part is what I like:

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In all cases of sexism, against males and females alike, both parties are always at fault (to what degree is dependent on the specific issue at hand); as in society at large is to blame most of all for perpetuating things under the guises (or as Michael Kaufman puts it best the collective hallucinations) of 'manhood, womanhood, and roles.'

I'm a feminist who strongly believes that feminism, as an equality movement, should discuss these issues as fervently as it does more female-centered inequalities, however unpopular they are with females. Things are only going to get better when we stop viewing all of these gender issues as 'us vs them' instead of the actual 'we' (this system is flawed, we're all hurting); more people should read the works of people like Kenneth Clatterbaugh). Dialogues trump monologues.

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #120 on: June 10, 2014, 02:32:02 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/quora/what-are-some-common-form_b_4473062.html

Don't get too caught up in the bullet points. The last part is what I like:

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In all cases of sexism, against males and females alike, both parties are always at fault (to what degree is dependent on the specific issue at hand); as in society at large is to blame most of all for perpetuating things under the guises (or as Michael Kaufman puts it best the collective hallucinations) of 'manhood, womanhood, and roles.'

I'm a feminist who strongly believes that feminism, as an equality movement, should discuss these issues as fervently as it does more female-centered inequalities, however unpopular they are with females. Things are only going to get better when we stop viewing all of these gender issues as 'us vs them' instead of the actual 'we' (this system is flawed, we're all hurting); more people should read the works of people like Kenneth Clatterbaugh). Dialogues trump monologues.

You know what, I hear this from feminists and women a lot and it pisses me off.  It's tied to our prejudice that women ought to be caring and nurturing of others.  We perceive something wrong with the idea that a woman might be self-centered enough to be looking out solely for her own self interests.  You know what?  The civil rights movement was sexist.  The suffragist movement was racist.  The LGBT movement doesn't give a fuck about the rights of straight people.  Does anybody care?  No, because they got shit done.

PeteD01

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Re: The Role of Language in Sexist Culture and Behavior
« Reply #121 on: June 15, 2014, 05:28:33 PM »
Can the title of this thread be changed? My brain is rebelling at having to translate "walking home from school" to "the role of language in sexist culture and behavior" every time it pops up in the list.

At your service....

lindsey

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #122 on: June 15, 2014, 06:54:39 PM »
Instead of pussy say coward.   It describes how someone is behaving without putting down a group of people.

But that's not funny. How about candy-ass? Or chicken-shit? Those are bona fide replacements.

I'm pretty sure that everyone would be fine with wiener.

I'm fine with it, but many guys would probably figure if that is OK, "pussy" is OK too.

I always considered "pussy" in the same vein as "scaredy cat" or "kitten". I don't understand why we have to assume everybody who says it means vagina. In my social circle if you mean vagina, you say vagina. Or "pagina", but that might be because I live with a toddler.

Jamesqf

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #123 on: June 15, 2014, 08:43:10 PM »
I always considered "pussy" in the same vein as "scaredy cat" or "kitten". I don't understand why we have to assume everybody who says it means vagina.

Yes, depending on context, of course.  Or 'wussy' is an acceptable alternative, and more commonly used in my circles.

As for the bias arguments, why do those who claim bias only point to the work environment, and never to life outside of work, where from my POV it seems that there is bias in favor of women in many areas, from dating to child custody to arrest & conviction rates.

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Someone who tells a sexist or racist joke has an audience of two types of people: the ones who are assholes, and the ones who think the joke teller is an asshole.

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #125 on: June 16, 2014, 04:37:12 AM »
I always considered "pussy" in the same vein as "scaredy cat" or "kitten". I don't understand why we have to assume everybody who says it means vagina.

Yes, depending on context, of course.  Or 'wussy' is an acceptable alternative, and more commonly used in my circles.

As for the bias arguments, why do those who claim bias only point to the work environment, and never to life outside of work, where from my POV it seems that there is bias in favor of women in many areas, from dating to child custody to arrest & conviction rates.
Actually, in cases where the dad actually fights for custody (and there is no issue with either parent) the dad is more likely to win.  However, because of idea that women are suppose to be the caregivers, many men never try. 

GuitarStv

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #126 on: June 16, 2014, 07:00:49 AM »
I always considered "pussy" in the same vein as "scaredy cat" or "kitten". I don't understand why we have to assume everybody who says it means vagina.

Yes, depending on context, of course.  Or 'wussy' is an acceptable alternative, and more commonly used in my circles.

As for the bias arguments, why do those who claim bias only point to the work environment, and never to life outside of work, where from my POV it seems that there is bias in favor of women in many areas, from dating to child custody to arrest & conviction rates.
Actually, in cases where the dad actually fights for custody (and there is no issue with either parent) the dad is more likely to win.  However, because of idea that women are suppose to be the caregivers, many men never try.

That's not at all what this 2003 report shows:  http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-225.pdf.  It shows that women are awarded custody at six or seven times the rate of fathers.

warfreak2

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #127 on: June 16, 2014, 07:37:05 AM »
As for the bias arguments, why do those who claim bias only point to the work environment, and never to life outside of work, where from my POV it seems that there is bias in favor of women in many areas, from dating to child custody to arrest & conviction rates.
Because there's a lot more data collected about work environments so it's easy to make an empirical case. There are mountains of anecdotal evidence of sexism in many areas of life, but it's far too easy to counter "that's just a million anecdotes, where is the data?"

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #128 on: June 16, 2014, 07:46:41 AM »
I always considered "pussy" in the same vein as "scaredy cat" or "kitten". I don't understand why we have to assume everybody who says it means vagina.

Yes, depending on context, of course.  Or 'wussy' is an acceptable alternative, and more commonly used in my circles.

As for the bias arguments, why do those who claim bias only point to the work environment, and never to life outside of work, where from my POV it seems that there is bias in favor of women in many areas, from dating to child custody to arrest & conviction rates.
Actually, in cases where the dad actually fights for custody (and there is no issue with either parent) the dad is more likely to win.  However, because of idea that women are suppose to be the caregivers, many men never try.

That's not at all what this 2003 report shows:  http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-225.pdf.  It shows that women are awarded custody at six or seven times the rate of fathers.
As I said, many men never try.  But if you look at the cases in which men do, they most often win. 

oldtoyota

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #129 on: June 16, 2014, 08:06:55 AM »
If things were like they were in the good ol' days, I'd tolerate the risk.

What good ol' days? Kids have never been safer: http://www.psmag.com/culture/the-kids-really-are-all-right-58651/

Almost all children are kidnapped by a parent or caregiver. The risk of a random stranger abducting your child is so rare it should barely even be thought about.

Agreed. The numbers do not lie.

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #130 on: June 16, 2014, 08:09:52 AM »
I always considered "pussy" in the same vein as "scaredy cat" or "kitten". I don't understand why we have to assume everybody who says it means vagina.

Yes, depending on context, of course.  Or 'wussy' is an acceptable alternative, and more commonly used in my circles.

As for the bias arguments, why do those who claim bias only point to the work environment, and never to life outside of work, where from my POV it seems that there is bias in favor of women in many areas, from dating to child custody to arrest & conviction rates.
Actually, in cases where the dad actually fights for custody (and there is no issue with either parent) the dad is more likely to win.  However, because of idea that women are suppose to be the caregivers, many men never try.

That's not at all what this 2003 report shows:  http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-225.pdf.  It shows that women are awarded custody at six or seven times the rate of fathers.
As I said, many men never try.  But if you look at the cases in which men do, they most often win.
So in other words, men are expected to retain a lawyer and have a vigorous court case in order to win custody? Doesn't that strike you as the court being biased towards women if the default custody award is to the mother?
When you divorce, most people have a lawyer (as well they should), each side proposes what they want.  Women focus on the children and family home, on average whereas men (again on average) do not.  When men do ask their lawyer to include the child, they win.  Yes, there is sexism in that we don't train BOTH genders to raise their children, but also sexism that if men want the children, they get them (again, on average).  The default is based on what the two members of the couple want.  The default for the court, on the other hand, is joint custody (unless you have a very old judge, lol).

Jamesqf

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #131 on: June 16, 2014, 11:13:14 AM »
As I said, many men never try.  But if you look at the cases in which men do, they most often win.

Perhaps the statistics are biased because many men perceive that it's useless to try unless they have an absolutely ironclad case.

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #132 on: June 16, 2014, 11:14:33 AM »
As I said, many men never try.  But if you look at the cases in which men do, they most often win.

Perhaps the statistics are biased because many men perceive that it's useless to try unless they have an absolutely ironclad case.
That very well may be true, James.  I feel that we really need to push equality in all areas, including this one and education is one way to do so. 

kyleaaa

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #133 on: June 16, 2014, 02:39:28 PM »

Groups in power positions can't really claim discrimination, racism, sexism etc.    That's like a CEO whining that her employees are mean to her.    The point of discrimination is that it puts negative views on groups of people that don't hold power positions.   

The problem with this is that the group in a power position changes depending on the social context. Who The Man(TM) is depends depends entirely on the social context in which an interaction takes place. A white male could very well NOT be in a power position in, say, a community dominated by hispanic females even if the broader US culture is white-male dominated. Obviously that example is a bit extreme, but it DOES happen in the real world. I have SEEN it and I have EXPERIENCED it and the research backs it up. It's not at all uncommon in minority-dominated communities, for example.

You can be both in a privileged position or not at the same time depending on what's going on around you. Power dynamics is a complicated thing and often changes moment-to-moment as you go about your day.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 02:42:06 PM by kyleaaa »

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It seems highly likely to me that this article took a very skewed view on the facts.  When you dig into these cases they usually make a heck of a lot more sense than the media would suggest.

brewer12345

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There some reason this thread ha not been moved to "Off Topic?"

I can see the shame and the comedy, but I don't think this cantankerous 148 post wonder belongs in this subforum.