Author Topic: Walking home from school and The Role of Language in Sexist Culture and Behavior  (Read 38242 times)

RootofGood

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2014, 02:58:28 PM »
I have let my 3rd grader walk to school by herself once (0.5 miles).  The other kids were sick and I figured it was best in the circumstances to let her go it alone instead of us walking there with her or waking up the kids and bundling them in the car.

Next year when the kids are in 3rd and 4th grade, they might walk by themselves all the time.  Lots of other kids are walking by themselves, and I routinely see at least 10 people that know me and the kids on the way to/from school.  Add to that cop friends that occasionally walk to/from school with their kids and the crossing guard half way to/from school.

My biggest concern is traffic safety, with abduction/molestation a very minor consideration.  The road is busy enough that it would be hard for an abductor to snatch the kids without being seen, which also means they have to navigate traffic (that sometimes speeds above 25 mph speed limit).  The only non-crosswalk crossing is directly in front of our house to get to the other side of the road, and they are comfortable making that crossing on foot or on bike. 

Noodle

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2014, 04:56:24 PM »
The whole "idling in the school pick-up line" thing is a little odd. I went to get my nieces at their elementary school a few months back (too far from their home to walk) and happily parked about half a block away in their pleasant neighborhood, walked over to the "meet-up point" to get them and we were zooming away less than 10 minutes after school let out. Our route took us past the long line of cars waiting to pull up to the door...based on the rate they were moving, lots of folks were going to end up waiting at least a half hour. Aside from parent/caregiver with a physical disability or a younger sibling asleep in the back seat, which I could totally understand, I just wasn't sure what one got out of staying in the car...

MayDay

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2014, 07:01:05 PM »
OK, I won't defend this anymore. If people feel it is offensive, then it is. I don't intend to argue with anyone about their feelings. I explained why I thought it was harmless, but you are telling me it hurts people and I won't argue.

I'm still going to tell my jokes with my friends, but you won't hear or read any of this language from me, and I will try not to express support for language that people find offensive on this forum. Honestly, I did not know.

I have a request. If you want to make people like me aware of this, maybe try an approach more like this article written to Jon Stewart about his same use of the word in question: http://www.chicagonow.com/families-in-the-loop/2012/03/dear-jon-stewart-stop-using-the-word-pussy-thanks/

Telling people they are being misogynistic, demeaning to women, that willingness to use this language implies they have bad morals, or anything like that will probably just make them defensive, because people who have this sense of humor don't see it that way. If you want to do it anyway, go ahead, but they probably won't understand. I recognize not all of you said things like that, but those were the comments that stood out to me.

So, are we cool? If no, let me know what would make you feel better. I like you guys and gals, and I want things to be cool between us. I genuinely believe we are all equals. To those who I have offended: I am sorry :)

If you genuinely weren't sexist, I just don't think you would find it funny to use that word in that way, to anyone.  So no, we are not cool.   And if you are saying something really offensive, I don't think the onus is on me, the one you are demeaning, to account for you only saying it because you have a sense of humor, and be nice when I tell you how offensive you are being. 


jawisco

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2014, 07:21:30 PM »
Interesting topic. 

I guess you need to live in a rural area to see kids walking to school these days in force.  In the morning, certain roads near me are teeming with young children - most younger than 14, barefoot most of the year, and there isn't a sidewalk around. 

They are all Amish children.  Not only are they seemingly unafraid by the danger they are in, they usually all wave to passing cars!

Argyle

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2014, 08:44:59 PM »
The original article doesn't have much detail, but the judge does admonish the man that it's dangerous for a child to be walking alongside the "highway," which makes it sound as if it's a road with cars traveling quite fast, and that it doesn't have a sidewalk. 

Rpesek6904

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2014, 06:09:18 AM »
He needed a better lawyer. I'd never show my face in court again if this happened to one of my clients. That's a little hyperbole. Seriously though, someone could have made the arguments for him. I would appeal just for the sake of it as well.


eil

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2014, 11:36:37 AM »
I like almost every thread on the MMM forums eventually degrades into:

A: Your offhand comment terribly offended me, which makes you a racist/sexist/classist jerk.
B: Am not!
A: Are too!
B: Am not!
A: Are too!
B: Am not!

Russ

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2014, 11:56:49 AM »
you forgot the part where the peanut gallery chimes in with their incredibly insightful posts

FWIW I think these discussions are interesting and productive, and are far more nuanced than the "am not" "are too" you apparently see. In the case that they're distracting to the original thread, they are split to become their own topic. It's the nature of discussions and discussion boards to go off on tangents every once and a while.

kyleaaa

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2014, 01:47:00 PM »
If you don't understand how powerful gender-specific language can be, then there isn't a whole lot the rest of us can do except ask you to be open-minded about challenging those beliefs.

Nonsense. There's a LOT more that can be done about it. I'd like to see more empirical research around the topic. It's not like it's a topic that doesn't lend itself to empirical study but unfortunately, I've searched high and low and have found very little legitimate science being done. It's time we got more rigorous in our dealing with privilege and oppression. "If you don't understand..." language is no longer going to cut it. I'm sick of everybody making the assumption that when somebody doesn't agree with you, it's just because they don't understand what YOU understand. People will understand it when it becomes better-studied. The side benefit is that you won't have to argue your point anymore: you can just give them the meta-analysis and be done with it.

If you genuinely weren't sexist, I just don't think you would find it funny to use that word in that way, to anyone

This statement is at least as offensive as his and reeks of entitlement. Two wrongs don't make a right. Cut it out.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 01:49:56 PM by kyleaaa »

warfreak2

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2014, 02:22:59 PM »
If you genuinely weren't sexist, I just don't think you would find it funny to use that word in that way, to anyone

This statement is at least as offensive as his and reeks of entitlement. Two wrongs don't make a right. Cut it out.
Would you make the same defense of, for example, jokingly using the word "Jew" as a synonym for "cheapskate"? If someone genuinely isn't anti-Semitic, what could they possibly be thinking, to find it funny?

Undecided

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2014, 02:28:03 PM »

The misogynistic comments need to stop NOW.

Why? You can disapprove of them, explain your view and then shame, or disassociate from, those who use them, but if they want to continue regardless of all that, they can.

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2014, 04:54:46 PM »
If you don't understand how powerful gender-specific language can be, then there isn't a whole lot the rest of us can do except ask you to be open-minded about challenging those beliefs.

Nonsense. There's a LOT more that can be done about it. I'd like to see more empirical research around the topic. It's not like it's a topic that doesn't lend itself to empirical study but unfortunately, I've searched high and low and have found very little legitimate science being done. It's time we got more rigorous in our dealing with privilege and oppression. "If you don't understand..." language is no longer going to cut it. I'm sick of everybody making the assumption that when somebody doesn't agree with you, it's just because they don't understand what YOU understand. People will understand it when it becomes better-studied. The side benefit is that you won't have to argue your point anymore: you can just give them the meta-analysis and be done with it.

If you genuinely weren't sexist, I just don't think you would find it funny to use that word in that way, to anyone

This statement is at least as offensive as his and reeks of entitlement. Two wrongs don't make a right. Cut it out.
Why do you think there has not been research on this?  There has been a ton. Google scholar brings up over 32,000 articles in one quick search and that is just one search term, I can think of at least two others I could use to find similar but not the same articles. 

Argyle

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2014, 06:42:57 PM »
I wish those who want to use insults that others find problematic would rethink their stance.  Even if their minds are not changed, it distracts from what this forum does best.  I know they might say, "No, I'm fine!  It's the people who object to my language who are disruptive!"  Well, here's the thing.  Let's be kinder to each other.  Maybe fewer insults altogether might be a way to go, even if they're expressed "correctly."  In general insults, ridicule, and contempt make for a less friendly atmosphere.  Maybe we can agree to try to err on the side of warmth.

bikebum

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2014, 02:54:14 AM »
How can a person find a derogatory joke funny if they don't really believe it? Well, if they were serious, it wouldn't be a joke. If you call someone a name, and you mean it, you don't laugh about it. You might if you are bullying, but that's not what we are talking about. We can't hear each other laughing or see each others' smiling faces over the internet though. Yeah, the jokes hurt sometimes and we should be careful, but why do we want to joke in the first place?

We think it's fun to talk about punching each other in the face. Does that mean we are violent people, deep down? Many people have been hurt very badly, even killed, by a face punch. Maybe someone on this forum has a family member who was killed with a face punch. There's a new fad with some city kids; they try to knockout random people with one punch. Are we encouraging them? Does Dane Cook really want to punch a baby?

Sometimes when a person is annoyed, they make a motion with their hand like they are shooting themselves in the head with a gun. Do they think suicide is funny? I don't think that joke is funny, because someone very close to me committed suicide with a gun, but I don't find it offensive either. It doesn't bother me when people do that. That's the closest I can relate, cuz I'm a white guy.

There are probably a lot more people you know that have a somewhat twisted sense of humor than you think. I bet most of them won't admit it or show it to you unless they are sure you have it too. They don't want you to think they are a bad person. No, it doesn't mean they feel guilty about it. You probably have things you don't want others to know about you too.

So, why do some people think this stuff is funny? Maybe:

-It highlights the absurdities of the human experience.
-They are making fun of the fact that humans invented a word for it, or use the word that way.
-They are making fun of the people who seriously talk like that.
-Shock value.
-Satire.
-They are a creepy douche-nozzle. (That one's OK, right? It was used in a response to me and no one said anything.)

You may not think the examples are parallel (I like that phrase Argyle), but that's not the point. I'm just offering this for general insight. These ideas can be extended to anything people may joke about but not really believe. Hopefully this doesn't back-fire; we need to keep those face punches.

GuitarStv

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2014, 06:39:43 AM »
Is this whole conversation stemming from someone being a dick by calling weak people pussies?  That's retarded.








*sits back to watch the sparks fly*

Emilyngh

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2014, 08:18:37 AM »


My point was I and the people I know, including the women, do not see it as derogatory or sexist, and therefore it is not when we are using it amongst ourselves. Is it harmful when black people say to each other, "What's up, my n-----?" How about when non-religious people jokingly call each other "infidels" or "heathens"?


Unless you are a woman, this argument makes no sense....none at all.

I think at this point in the US we are very close to gender equality, maybe we have even achieved it.

Ah-ha-ha-ha!   Of course you do.   You are wrong.   Just google any stats/studies on the percent of women in powerful/high paying positions, rejection rates of scientific articles submitted with male vs female names (same exact articles), wealth of women vs men, expectations of women who are mothers vs men as fathers, etc.   Or talk to a woman, especially one in a field that is mostly male.

Fred Tracy

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2014, 09:19:56 AM »
My gut reaction with the initial posting is that the judge over-reacted, but I can't make a decision without more details. I do think it's a fitting punishment to make a kid walk a mile home, though. Not such a big thing at all.

Regarding the sexism conversation, I regularly use the word "pussy".. I'll often call my girlfriend one, or she'll call me one sometimes. We both think it's funny. I never thought of it as sexist before, and although I can now see that, I'm still going to use it because I still think it's funny. Perhaps even moreso because it's offensive.

I am pretty low class though, I must admit. Not economically, but behaviorally. It's one of my best traits I think.

NinetyFour

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #67 on: June 04, 2014, 11:05:36 AM »
I think at this point in the US we are very close to gender equality, maybe we have even achieved it.
Ah-ha-ha-ha!   Of course you do.   You are wrong.

+1000

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #68 on: June 04, 2014, 12:59:29 PM »
I think at this point in the US we are very close to gender equality, maybe we have even achieved it.

Ah-ha-ha-ha!   Of course you do.   You are wrong.   Just google any stats/studies on the percent of women in powerful/high paying positions, rejection rates of scientific articles submitted with male vs female names (same exact articles), wealth of women vs men, expectations of women who are mothers vs men as fathers, etc.   Or talk to a woman, especially one in a field that is mostly male.
Depending upon how the parent is defining equality, they aren't exactly wrong either. True gender equality is unlikely to occur for the same reasons that there isn't racial equality, agism is a problem, and even being taller than average can get you more pay.

With regards to the specific points you raise:
  • "Women in powerful/high paying positions" -  Depends upon how narrow of a band you are talking about. At the time of this writing  Angela Merkel is in her third term as the German Chancellor which makes her a very powerful player on the world stage since Germany is part of the G8. While it is true there aren't many women heading Fortune 500 companies, on the same token the average age at appointment is 50, 75% come from internal appointments, and it takes an average of 16 years with the company before the appointment. (Source) Since the average age at appointment is 50 we should be starting to see Generation X have an impact upon CEO selection which will make things interesting since a good argument was made for a glass ceiling being in place due to the Baby Boomers but Generation X was raised with more of a mindset towards equality so that ceiling should go away. Of course, it will still take another 10 to 20 years for all of the CEOs currently in place to retire and be replaced before we can step back and actually evaluate things.
  • "rejection rates of scientific articles submitted with male vs female names" - This is news to me, do you have sources for that? I'm not saying it doesn't exist but in my field  peer reviews are performed "blind' so the reviewers shouldn't know the gender of the person that wrote the article. So, off hand, this would point to an issue with the editors who should be fairly easy to call out and have replaced.
  • "wealth of women vs men" - This can very easily relate back to the pay gap and odds are the same explanations for the pay gap may apply. However, there are a lot of variables involved so you need to narrow things down a bit. All other variables being equal, a single parent household is likely to have a lower net worth than a single person since the single parent household has two people that need to be fed.
  • "expectations of women who are mothers vs men as fathers" - Which is more of a product of culture which is extremely hard to change on any sort of quick basis. Usually it takes generations for cultural norms to change assuming that they are something that aren't ingrained into a given culture.
  • "Or talk to a woman, especially one in a field that is mostly male." - Conversely, talk to a male in a field that is dominated by women. If you think about it, you hear a lot more people questioning why there aren't more women in STEM fields then why aren't more men in a field like nursing where the number of males has tripled since 1970 to 9.6%. Where as the STEM figures for women is highly variable depending upon the field at 45.9% all the way down to 5.5%. Not exactly equal but my point is you hear about the STEM gender gap a lot more than you do the RN gender gap.
If you really want to get into the depths of statistics, there is actually a reverse gender gap starting to appear right now both in terms of pay,

Quote
But now there's evidence that the ship may finally be turning around: according to a new analysis of 2,000 communities by a market research company, in 147 out of 150 of the biggest cities in the U.S., the median full-time salaries of young women are 8% higher than those of the guys in their peer group.

and in terms of education,

Quote
A federal survey of about 9,000 young men and women born during the years 1980 to 1984 shows a big disparity when it comes to higher education, with women a third more likely to have received a bachelor's degree by age 27. While it has long been known that women are outpacing men when it comes to pursuing higher education, the extensive study by the Bureau of Labor Statistics highlighted several numbers that show the trend is accelerating.
You need to consider education and experience with that.  If women are more likely to get high degrees then maybe the 8% is still a wage gap.  A stupid example but you would not compare the wage of a female lawyer to a male restaurant manager and say "well she make 8% more, so the wage gap is gone". 

rocksinmyhead

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #69 on: June 04, 2014, 01:18:24 PM »
I think there is some odd psychology going on when it comes to helicopter parenting.   I used to think it was just about people not understanding risk assessment, but I think it goes deeper than that.  IF, and I know the chance is small, your child gets abducted by a stranger walking home, public opinion would cast almost as much blame on the parent as the perp.  Same with leaving your kids in the car for a minute while grabbing something in the car, or leaving your kids unsupervised outside.  Parental judgement by your peers is a powerful force and can lead people to act in ways that might not be rational otherwise.

An excellent point that's been largely overlooked so far.

agreed! this psychology is actually also one of the main things that influences me to wear a bike helmet. I just KNOW if I get in an accident and die or suffer traumatic brain injury, people will be sad and feel bad for me but at the same time think "why the fuck wasn't she wearing a helmet?!?" at least, I know that's what I would think. :)

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #70 on: June 04, 2014, 01:42:08 PM »
You need to consider education and experience with that.  If women are more likely to get high degrees then maybe the 8% is still a wage gap.  A stupid example but you would not compare the wage of a female lawyer to a male restaurant manager and say "well she make 8% more, so the wage gap is gone".
Which is pretty much exactly how the wage gap is normally presented in the media.

This is a cohort study based upon the age which should control for experience but it doesn't look like career choice is accounted for, but one of the talking points is on the point of education:

Quote
The figures come from James Chung of Reach Advisors, who has spent more than a year analyzing data from the Census Bureau's American Community Survey. He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do. This is almost the exact opposite of the graduation ratio that existed when the baby boomers entered college. Studies have consistently shown that a college degree pays off in much higher wages over a lifetime, and even in many cases for entry-level positions. "These women haven't just caught up with the guys," says Chung. "In many cities, they're clocking them."

This goes back to the education gap that I mentioned in a previous post and is a much more serious problem that most people might realize. If we were heading for truly equal society then we should expect the educational obtainment rate to more or less even out or have some nominal difference that could be explained. However, a 2:3 graduation ratio is fairly significant and should be investigated as to why it is occurring.
I'll give you that, BUT I am a researcher and the research is clear that EVEN account for everything there is a gender gap.  And they know why.  It is call implicit bias.  The same reason that there is a gap in nursing unless you are union or in management that favor women.  We assume certain groups should do certain behaviors.  One reason why a woman may be called a bitch for the same behavior that a man would be called a leader for.  Which is why vocabulary and attitude is so important and WHY I was bothered by the comments here.  I do believe in equality and no ones race, gender, religion, sexual orientation etc should effect their job, only their skills at the job.

Emilyngh

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2014, 02:05:10 PM »
I think at this point in the US we are very close to gender equality, maybe we have even achieved it.

Ah-ha-ha-ha!   Of course you do.   You are wrong.   Just google any stats/studies on the percent of women in powerful/high paying positions, rejection rates of scientific articles submitted with male vs female names (same exact articles), wealth of women vs men, expectations of women who are mothers vs men as fathers, etc.   Or talk to a woman, especially one in a field that is mostly male.
Depending upon how the parent is defining equality, they aren't exactly wrong either. True gender equality is unlikely to occur for the same reasons that there isn't racial equality, agism is a problem, and even being taller than average can get you more pay.

With regards to the specific points you raise:
  • "Women in powerful/high paying positions" -  Depends upon how narrow of a band you are talking about. At the time of this writing  Angela Merkel is in her third term as the German Chancellor which makes her a very powerful player on the world stage since Germany is part of the G8. While it is true there aren't many women heading Fortune 500 companies, on the same token the average age at appointment is 50, 75% come from internal appointments, and it takes an average of 16 years with the company before the appointment. (Source) Since the average age at appointment is 50 we should be starting to see Generation X have an impact upon CEO selection which will make things interesting since a good argument was made for a glass ceiling being in place due to the Baby Boomers but Generation X was raised with more of a mindset towards equality so that ceiling should go away. Of course, it will still take another 10 to 20 years for all of the CEOs currently in place to retire and be replaced before we can step back and actually evaluate things.
  • "rejection rates of scientific articles submitted with male vs female names" - This is news to me, do you have sources for that? I'm not saying it doesn't exist but in my field  peer reviews are performed "blind' so the reviewers shouldn't know the gender of the person that wrote the article. So, off hand, this would point to an issue with the editors who should be fairly easy to call out and have replaced.
  • "wealth of women vs men" - This can very easily relate back to the pay gap and odds are the same explanations for the pay gap may apply. However, there are a lot of variables involved so you need to narrow things down a bit. All other variables being equal, a single parent household is likely to have a lower net worth than a single person since the single parent household has two people that need to be fed.
  • "expectations of women who are mothers vs men as fathers" - Which is more of a product of culture which is extremely hard to change on any sort of quick basis. Usually it takes generations for cultural norms to change assuming that they are something that aren't ingrained into a given culture.
  • "Or talk to a woman, especially one in a field that is mostly male." - Conversely, talk to a male in a field that is dominated by women. If you think about it, you hear a lot more people questioning why there aren't more women in STEM fields then why aren't more men in a field like nursing where the number of males has tripled since 1970 to 9.6%. Where as the STEM figures for women is highly variable depending upon the field at 45.9% all the way down to 5.5%. Not exactly equal but my point is you hear about the STEM gender gap a lot more than you do the RN gender gap.
If you really want to get into the depths of statistics, there is actually a reverse gender gap starting to appear right now both in terms of pay,

Quote
But now there's evidence that the ship may finally be turning around: according to a new analysis of 2,000 communities by a market research company, in 147 out of 150 of the biggest cities in the U.S., the median full-time salaries of young women are 8% higher than those of the guys in their peer group.

and in terms of education,

Quote
A federal survey of about 9,000 young men and women born during the years 1980 to 1984 shows a big disparity when it comes to higher education, with women a third more likely to have received a bachelor's degree by age 27. While it has long been known that women are outpacing men when it comes to pursuing higher education, the extensive study by the Bureau of Labor Statistics highlighted several numbers that show the trend is accelerating.

-"women in powerful positions"-regardless of whether or not this effect is minimized over time (which I'm not sure that it will be), the reality is there is not currently equality regarding the percent of women in powerful positions.   Finding a few examples of women in these positions does not negate this fact.

-"rejection rates of scientific journals"- I can't find the exact article I read before, but here is a similar one I've found: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v387/n6631/abs/387341a0.html .   It shows gender bias in peer review scoring of post doc candidates' applications.   And even if reviews are "blind" (which they aren't in my field, a hard science), these studies point to biases that would arguably extend to affect things in one's career beyond publication.   They point to subconscious opinions formed about women vs men.   These are the types of inequities that slowly chip away at one's career vs bias that is so egregious that a single editor can be singled-out for it and gotten rid of.

-"wealth of women vs men"-again, I made no argument regarding causes, but simply the existence of huge inequities between women and men

-"expectations of women as mothers..."- I did not comment on whether these are cultural inequities that are slow to change.   The fact remains that regardless of cause, this is another example of existing inequities.

-As far as all of your other comments regarding "reverse inequity" situations: in no way do they diminish the *fact* that there is still clearly strong inequality in power, wealth, career bias etc between men and women, so what is your point? That there are fewer male nurses than female?   So this somehow negates the vast differences in pay, power, wealth, etc between men and women that exist?   If not, why the unrelated tangent?   Perhaps you should consider this: http://feministing.com/2014/05/30/an-open-letter-to-privileged-people-who-play-devils-advocate/

« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 02:14:58 PM by Emilyngh »

ace1224

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2014, 02:26:15 PM »
Is this whole conversation stemming from someone being a dick by calling weak people pussies?  That's retarded.








*sits back to watch the sparks fly*

you're my hero lol!  this forum makes me think me and my friends need to be more scholarly.  until today i didn't even really know about half the stuff that offended people

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2014, 05:24:05 PM »
I'll give you that, BUT I am a researcher and the research is clear that EVEN account for everything there is a gender gap.
Ok, great! Feel free to post some articles to defend your position otherwise you are pretty much just making an appeal to authority.

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And they know why.  It is call implicit bias.
Yes, and currently there is a bit to do about hurricane names, but an implicit bias tends to arise from social norms which comes back to culture which in turn means you are unlikely to fix things over night.

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The same reason that there is a gap in nursing unless you are union or in management that favor women.
Except if management is favoring women that implies that there is not equality in the workplace. Of course, measuring equality in the workplace is hard since even if you have two people with the same educational obtainment and experience start at the same pay, their pay may drift over the years if their raises and promotions are affected by their reviews and work ethic.

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We assume certain groups should do certain behaviors. One reason why a woman may be called a bitch for the same behavior that a man would be called a leader for.
True, but then again, it has been scientifically demonstrated that women tend to be better at  emotional interpretation than men which means that so you have to be careful when you say that to control for what can be demonstrated as an intrinsic capability of a given group versus a stereotype of a group. The problem with interpreting the use of language is that someone's choice of words could be influenced by years of interaction with a person or it could be limited to a brief interaction.
No, it is expecting you to do some basic work searching if you decide to have an opinion contrary to what the research has shown.  But just because you asked, here is a within one industry research article, but I can start posting multiple others but I would consider that spamming.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/2/193.short

Anthony Lo Sasso, Michael Richards, Chiu-Fang Chou, and Susan Gerber explore a growing gender gap in physicians’ starting salaries. They find that in New York State, where more residents are trained than in any other state, women leaving residency training programs earn considerably less than their male counterparts—and that the gap isn’t explained by such factors as choice of specialties.

These authors brought different perspectives and expertise to the research, lead author Lo Sasso says. Their collaboration started at the University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC). Lo Sasso, a professor and senior research scientist in the UIC School of Public Health, supervised Chou’s doctoral research at the school, and they soon began to collaborate on other work. Richards, then a medical student at UIC, joined them. Gerber, Lo Sasso’s wife and frequent collaborator, was brought into this project for her expertise and her perspective as a female physician.

The authors were surprised by the striking difference in starting salaries that their research found between male and female physicians. They accounted for every factor that might explain this finding, given previous research that found no difference in salary between sexes, but this made no difference. “We honestly tried everything we could to make it go away, but it wouldn’t,” Lo Sasso says. The authors hope that their research will highlight the uncertainty and unpredictability inherent in dynamic physician labor markets—a factor that will play into health reform, as demand grows for primary care providers and physicians in general.

theglobetrotter

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #74 on: June 04, 2014, 06:49:27 PM »
We live in England and the way things work here, most village have a primary school and kids from year 5 on can walk/bike to school alone. We're going back to the US and I've been looking at areas where there's a school in the community. I used to live in Downtown Boise, the north end, and it was like that there. It's so nice!

I hope to find another place where the kids can walk to and from school!!

ThatBikeGuy

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2014, 10:33:24 AM »
Hello everybody, long-time lurker here! I am surprised that the idea of a huge gender wage gap is so heavily supported in a community where people also believe their portfolio of companies will work ruthlessly and tirelessly to maximize profit for their shareholders. Many of us invest in index funds containing those companies in the hopes of funding our retirement. If the gap was so pervasive in every field regardless of other factors besides gender, companies would be paying 23% more just to employ a man instead of a woman who could do the job just as well. Just one company would see this and they'd hire as many women as it could get away with to crush their competition. Since labor is a large percentage of business costs, companies could add entire percentage points to their profit margins by making that one change. No good company would walk away from that much profit and I would not wish to invest in a company incompetent enough to ignore it.

Contrary to what the BLS says in its own report, you CAN largely dismiss the wage gap by accounting for other factors such as marital status, hours worked, and children by using the data it provided (see link 1). The gap shrinks to 4.2% for women that never married without considering anything else. Just for being under the age of 35, the gap shrinks to 9.8%. Women actually make 5.3% more than men at 1-35 hours worked and 11.3% more than men at 35-39 hours regardless of age, marital status, or children. (see page 41 of BLS report). Men make 14.5% more than women as full time employees but more men choose to work 41+ hours a week. The full time gap could be because women become stay at home moms more frequently and lose years of raises and experience when re-entering the work force or prefer part time employment to watch any children. Since there are no numbers to back that up, take it with a grain of salt. Anywho, check out the first link and compare it with the BLS report if you don't believe the numbers. The thing that surprised me the most was the impact of married vs. unmarried which had gaps of 23.4% and 4.2% respectively. I thought children would have the largest impact but that was not the case.

1.  http://www.aei-ideas.org/2014/04/once-you-impose-the-ceteris-paribus-condition-the-alleged-23-gender-pay-gap-starts-to-evaporate/
2.  http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswom2012.pdf

Back on topic, it largely depends on how old the son was. I could understand giving the fine to the father if the son was around 5-7 because even when I was in school, the safety squad that I took part in as a child would at least walk kindergartners to their home streets and that was only 12 years ago. I think the bigger question we should all be asking is why the father is driving his car a mile to pick up his son when he could be biking in tropical paradise instead? :)

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2014, 10:43:01 AM »
Hello everybody, long-time lurker here! I am surprised that the idea of a huge gender wage gap is so heavily supported in a community where people also believe their portfolio of companies will work ruthlessly and tirelessly to maximize profit for their shareholders. Many of us invest in index funds containing those companies in the hopes of funding our retirement. If the gap was so pervasive in every field regardless of other factors besides gender, companies would be paying 23% more just to employ a man instead of a woman who could do the job just as well. Just one company would see this and they'd hire as many women as it could get away with to crush their competition. Since labor is a large percentage of business costs, companies could add entire percentage points to their profit margins by making that one change. No good company would walk away from that much profit and I would not wish to invest in a company incompetent enough to ignore it.

Contrary to what the BLS says in its own report, you CAN largely dismiss the wage gap by accounting for other factors such as marital status, hours worked, and children by using the data it provided (see link 1). The gap shrinks to 4.2% for women that never married without considering anything else. Just for being under the age of 35, the gap shrinks to 9.8%. Women actually make 5.3% more than men at 1-35 hours worked and 11.3% more than men at 35-39 hours regardless of age, marital status, or children. (see page 41 of BLS report). Men make 14.5% more than women as full time employees but more men choose to work 41+ hours a week. The full time gap could be because women become stay at home moms more frequently and lose years of raises and experience when re-entering the work force or prefer part time employment to watch any children. Since there are no numbers to back that up, take it with a grain of salt. Anywho, check out the first link and compare it with the BLS report if you don't believe the numbers. The thing that surprised me the most was the impact of married vs. unmarried which had gaps of 23.4% and 4.2% respectively. I thought children would have the largest impact but that was not the case.

1.  http://www.aei-ideas.org/2014/04/once-you-impose-the-ceteris-paribus-condition-the-alleged-23-gender-pay-gap-starts-to-evaporate/
2.  http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswom2012.pdf

Back on topic, it largely depends on how old the son was. I could understand giving the fine to the father if the son was around 5-7 because even when I was in school, the safety squad that I took part in as a child would at least walk kindergartners to their home streets and that was only 12 years ago. I think the bigger question we should all be asking is why the father is driving his car a mile to pick up his son when he could be biking in tropical paradise instead? :)
This has been explained, over and over.  Both men and women have implicit bias and they rate the same work as being less when associated with a female name (the reverse being true in nursing, and teaching and I think social work until you get into management which is still seen as a male skill).  Studies done where hours are equivocated show a bias in promotions/raised.  In fact I have posted on here an article about backlash on women when they negotiate.  People can pretend this does not exists all they want, but research for over 30 years has show this to be true.  It is as ridiculous as saying evolution does not exist. 

warfreak2

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2014, 10:50:57 AM »
Hello everybody, long-time lurker here! I am surprised that the idea of a huge gender wage gap is so heavily supported in a community where people also believe their portfolio of companies will work ruthlessly and tirelessly to maximize profit for their shareholders. Many of us invest in index funds containing those companies in the hopes of funding our retirement. If the gap was so pervasive in every field regardless of other factors besides gender, companies would be paying 23% more just to employ a man instead of a woman who could do the job just as well. Just one company would see this and they'd hire as many women as it could get away with to crush their competition. Since labor is a large percentage of business costs, companies could add entire percentage points to their profit margins by making that one change. No good company would walk away from that much profit and I would not wish to invest in a company incompetent enough to ignore it.
So because markets are efficient, sexism (plus all other forms of discrimination) must play no part in employment practices? (By the way, you don't have to believe in efficient markets to think that stock market index funds are a good investment.)

The thing is, we know that a lot of sexism is not conscious or deliberate - it's usually just an unthinking continuation of what everyone is used to. Employers aren't going to say "hey, we can pay women less to do the same work, let's fire all the men!" because they aren't generally even aware of the fact that they pay women less, and would tend to claim that they don't.

Another thing is that part of the gender pay gap is due to pay differences between different jobs which are comparable in terms of skills and qualifications - men and women alike in Job A may be paid less than men and women alike in an equivalent Job B, but social pressures push women towards Job A and men towards Job B. But since each job pays men and women the same, "let's fire all the men" isn't going to work.

Besides, even if "let's employ women because we can get away with paying them less" were an effective way to reduce labour costs in many circumstances, you have to realise that sexism as explicit corporate policy would be phenomenally bad PR, and those companies would not see their profits go up...

I'm sorry, but if the belief in efficient markets leads you to conclude that there is no gender pay gap (it shouldn't, but if it does), really the conclusion should be that markets are not efficient. Also, your last sentence explicitly says you value profit over ethics, which makes you look like kind of a tool.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 11:01:27 AM by warfreak2 »

RootofGood

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2014, 02:27:33 PM »
We live in England and the way things work here, most village have a primary school and kids from year 5 on can walk/bike to school alone. We're going back to the US and I've been looking at areas where there's a school in the community. I used to live in Downtown Boise, the north end, and it was like that there. It's so nice!

I hope to find another place where the kids can walk to and from school!!

A lot of the older schools in Raleigh NC (where we live) are like that - neighborhood schools where you can walk to them without crossing really busy roads.  We happen to have one in our neighborhood and it's definitely nice to be able to walk to/from school.  Outside of saving money, getting exercise and enjoying the outdoors, it also builds community.  You get to know other parents who are out walking their kids to school, and you meet people who don't even have kids.  Now, when I talk to a new neighbor, they say "oh, you're that guy out walking all the time".  It's also a crime deterrent if people are out walking around.  I'd rather hit a quiet cul de sac than the main street I live on that has plenty of vehicular, pedestrian, and bike traffic (particularly when school starts and ends each day).

ThatBikeGuy

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2014, 03:13:14 PM »
I love you too! :) I only made an assertion that companies act to maximize profit, not that it was completely efficient and all-knowing as that hypothesis states. One could argue that the markets can remain irrational for a long time but 30 years would be an absurd amount of time for no company to notice something regularly stated in news headlines and act on it in some way. My initial scenario for why the pay gap did not exist came from a belief that a company would try its hardest to close such a gap in any way possible to squeeze out more profit. I'll admit my scenario was rather poor but I still believe that to be the reason such a huge gap would quickly disappear in today's world. The numbers are unrelated to my scenario though and only support the assertion that the gap is often small or nonexistent when you correct for marriage, children, and hours worked.

I stated that I would choose to avoid a company that didn't preferentially employ women to save 20% on labor costs compared to men since it would make more sense than hiring men for more money to do the same work in that scenario. It would point to a company that is either sexist or highly inefficient which are both things I despise. You're right though that my example was quite unrealistic. I'd have no way of knowing that since salaries are generally hidden first of all. They could get around the PR problem by simply lowering the wages of new male hires over time to bring them in line with what women make because wages are typically not public knowledge.

As you said, it is not that simple and other factors exist to help explain these differences such as the company, educational background, and location. I did not mean to assert that discrimination does not exist in the workforce, only that most companies will not actively discriminate on a level where mass profits are at stake. There may be some differences in pay, even significant ones between the sexes, but it isn't as clear-cut as the 20% nonsense. I'm well aware academia can be sexist, my chemistry profs have told me enough horror stories but that was not what I was addressing. I'm not arguing that sexism in the workplace doesn't exist, only that it doesn't include the huge gulf in pay that most people make it out to have.

I personally believe that many companies don't give two licks about ethics when we have fracking, outsourcing, and our joke of a minimum wage that are all ruining millions of lives and forcing taxpayers to subsidize what they do not pay. I noticed neither of you responded to the next paragraph where the numbers support that such a gap is likely very different than what has been advertised. Say what you will on my stance as to why the gender pay gap is small or non-existent but if you read the data provided by the government study, the gap largely disappears by just making a few simple changes to the sample pool. If anything, there is a gap due to marriage, children, and possibly age and not solely due to gender in many cases.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 03:18:22 PM by ThatBikeGuy »

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2014, 03:32:37 PM »
I love you too! :) I only made an assertion that companies act to maximize profit, not that it was completely efficient and all-knowing as that hypothesis states. One could argue that the markets can remain irrational for a long time but 30 years would be an absurd amount of time for no company to notice something regularly stated in news headlines and act on it in some way. My initial scenario for why the pay gap did not exist came from a belief that a company would try its hardest to close such a gap in any way possible to squeeze out more profit. I'll admit my scenario was rather poor but I still believe that to be the reason such a huge gap would quickly disappear in today's world. The numbers are unrelated to my scenario though and only support the assertion that the gap is often small or nonexistent when you correct for marriage, children, and hours worked.

I stated that I would choose to avoid a company that didn't preferentially employ women to save 20% on labor costs compared to men since it would make more sense than hiring men for more money to do the same work in that scenario. It would point to a company that is either sexist or highly inefficient which are both things I despise. You're right though that my example was quite unrealistic. I'd have no way of knowing that since salaries are generally hidden first of all. They could get around the PR problem by simply lowering the wages of new male hires over time to bring them in line with what women make because wages are typically not public knowledge.

As you said, it is not that simple and other factors exist to help explain these differences such as the company, educational background, and location. I did not mean to assert that discrimination does not exist in the workforce, only that most companies will not actively discriminate on a level where mass profits are at stake. There may be some differences in pay, even significant ones between the sexes, but it isn't as clear-cut as the 20% nonsense. I'm well aware academia can be sexist, my chemistry profs have told me enough horror stories but that was not what I was addressing. I'm not arguing that sexism in the workplace doesn't exist, only that it doesn't include the huge gulf in pay that most people make it out to have.

I personally believe that many companies don't give two licks about ethics when we have fracking, outsourcing, and our joke of a minimum wage that are all ruining millions of lives and forcing taxpayers to subsidize what they do not pay. I noticed neither of you responded to the next paragraph where the numbers support that such a gap is likely very different than what has been advertised. Say what you will on my stance as to why the gender pay gap is small or non-existent but if you read the data provided by the government study, the gap largely disappears by just making a few simple changes to the sample pool. If anything, there is a gap due to marriage, children, and possibly age and not solely due to gender in many cases.
But even when they do that the promotions, even of women without children, and wage gap between the genders exist AND they have tested that reason behind it, has not gone away.  So instead of arguing against every peer reviewed study I can find, how about fix the underlying issue and then no one will argue with you.  And, btw, the first study on this bias that I remember reading was over 30 years ago so, yes the bias can last for that period of time.

ThatBikeGuy

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #81 on: June 06, 2014, 04:34:22 PM »
But even when they do that the promotions, even of women without children, and wage gap between the genders exist AND they have tested that reason behind it, has not gone away.  So instead of arguing against every peer reviewed study I can find, how about fix the underlying issue and then no one will argue with you.  And, btw, the first study on this bias that I remember reading was over 30 years ago so, yes the bias can last for that period of time.
Well, I'm simply using the statistics provided directly from a mass sampling of the population from here: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswom2012.pdf. I was a very strong believer in the 20% pay gap until I found that article and went through all the numbers myself. The sources I found on my own discussed some other form of discrimination instead of the pay gap as a whole so I welcome any sources! I commented on this knowing that it would push some people's buttons so I don't mind any anger at all. :3 The other source I used just picked out choice morsels from that report for ease of viewing. The whole point that I am making is that if gender was the primary factor between such a huge gulf, it'd be highly unlikely to see up to 80% of it being lopped away by accounting for a single variable while holding gender constant in many scenarios. What I was getting at is if changing one or two variables largely bridges the gap, what if we happened to do everything at the same time for a more equal comparison? To me, it seems highly unlikely that the pay gap would persist to a large extent when most individual variables besides marriage/children/low education/old age shrinks it down.

Here, I'll do one in addition to those in the article I linked. Here are numbers drawn from page 56 of the report.
Women’s earnings as percentages of a man’s at age 25+ at certain education levels:
79.9% total
76.0% less than high school
76.3% high school
76.9% some college or associates
73.0% bachelors and above.

Pretty abysmal right? Looking from just those numbers, there is almost certainly a wage gap. Now take a look on page 46.
Women’s earnings as percentages of a man’s hourly wage at age 25+ at certain education levels:
86.8% total
78.7% less than high school
79.3% high school
85.3% some college or associates
91.5% bachelors and above.
Still a wage gap but it looks like some areas tightened up quite a bit.

Let's see how much the gaps closed in each category by accounting for just the hourly wage.
34.3% total
11.3% less than high school
12.7% high school
36.4% some college or associates
68.5% bachelors and above.

Some other important variable(s) are likely affecting the results or the impact simply grows with education level judging by how it trends. One could argue physical jobs that don't require an education pay better than service jobs and more men take those, actual discrimination is taking place more frequently at lower education levels, or something of that sort but since I have no numbers, I'll leave that to your interpretation. But look at what happens for the bottom group. 68.5% of the gap in pay between bachelor's degree men and women is accounted for just by isolating their hourly rates. When unmarried, childless, or young women all only have a 10% gap or less between their counterparts without even accounting for hours worked and that men work more hours than women on average, it indicates that those variables are responsible for the gap and gender is probably not the primary factor.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 04:37:47 PM by ThatBikeGuy »

warfreak2

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #82 on: June 06, 2014, 05:56:50 PM »
Let's see how much the gaps closed in each category by accounting for just the hourly wage.
The thing that seemingly everyone forgets when they 'correct' for this variable is that it's also totally sexist that women are expected to work less than men, and given fewer or less reliable hours. The sexism in employment doesn't go away, it's just pushed under the carpet.

Either way, sexism is emphatically not a thing of the past - a preposterous claim, which the gender wage gap was cited as clear evidence against. Whether it's explained by lower hourly pay or fewer hours, or both, it's clear evidence of sexism.

I think at this point in the US we are very close to gender equality, maybe we have even achieved it.

I mean, really, there's only two ways you can go. Either women earn less than men because they aren't treated fairly, or because it is fair for them to earn less. The first one acknowledges sexism, the second one is sexism.

Argyle

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #83 on: June 06, 2014, 06:34:58 PM »
Thank you, Warfreak2.

randymarsh

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #84 on: June 06, 2014, 09:35:27 PM »
The thing that seemingly everyone forgets when they 'correct' for this variable is that it's also totally sexist that women are expected to work less than men, and given fewer or less reliable hours. The sexism in employment doesn't go away, it's just pushed under the carpet.

Either way, sexism is emphatically not a thing of the past - a preposterous claim, which the gender wage gap was cited as clear evidence against. Whether it's explained by lower hourly pay or fewer hours, or both, it's clear evidence of sexism.

Source that women are given fewer or less reliable hours? It's not sexism if women are choosing to work fewer hours.

bikebum

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #85 on: June 06, 2014, 09:36:05 PM »
I think at this point in the US we are very close to gender equality, maybe we have even achieved it.

I mean, really, there's only two ways you can go. Either women earn less than men because they aren't treated fairly, or because it is fair for them to earn less. The first one acknowledges sexism, the second one is sexism.

Maybe women want to work less. Plenty of women want to be house wives or stay-at-home-moms. You probably think I am wrong, but being wrong is different than being sexist. I haven't seen the data before; I may change my mind if I look more into it. It's pretty complicated though, I think people see what they want to see.

It could be argued that it is sexist that men are looked down upon for being stay-at-home-dads, or that it is embarrassing if a man's wife makes more money than him. I'm not arguing that, because I don't give a shit. It depends on what roles people want to fill, whether anything sexist is going on. I hear enough arguments from both sides that I just say fuck it.

warfreak2

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2014, 04:50:13 AM »
Maybe women want to work less. Plenty of women want to be house wives or stay-at-home-moms. You probably think I am wrong
I don't necessarily think that this isn't partly true...

But supposing it's true, why do women want to work less and earn less? It's not like having woman-parts should cause anyone to eschew lucrative careers... women are human beings, so (like men) they often want what they are told to want. And we collectively keep telling women to want to work less, stay at home, be a housewife and raise children. And we collectively keep telling men to want to earn more and aim for the top. It's still sexist.

Sure, there are lots of reasons for the gender wage gap. (So far we've identified three.) But however it's explained, the explanation is either going to acknowledge sexism, or be an example of it.

Quote
It could be argued that it is sexist that men are looked down upon for being stay-at-home-dads, or that it is embarrassing if a man's wife makes more money than him.
I agree! Those things are totally sexist... against women. These are two examples of men being judged for taking an "inferior" role which "should be" taken by a woman. The sexism is the implication that they ought to take the "superior" role because they are a man.

The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2014, 05:14:37 AM »
Maybe women want to work less. Plenty of women want to be house wives or stay-at-home-moms. You probably think I am wrong
I don't necessarily think that this isn't partly true...

But supposing it's true, why do women want to work less and earn less? It's not like having woman-parts should cause anyone to eschew lucrative careers... women are human beings, so (like men) they often want what they are told to want. And we collectively keep telling women to want to work less, stay at home, be a housewife and raise children. And we collectively keep telling men to want to earn more and aim for the top. It's still sexist.

Sure, there are lots of reasons for the gender wage gap. (So far we've identified three.) But however it's explained, the explanation is either going to acknowledge sexism, or be an example of it.

Quote
It could be argued that it is sexist that men are looked down upon for being stay-at-home-dads, or that it is embarrassing if a man's wife makes more money than him.
I agree! Those things are totally sexist... against women. These are two examples of men being judged for taking an "inferior" role which "should be" taken by a woman. The sexism is the implication that they ought to take the "superior" role because they are a man.

The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.
I would not necessarily agree with that.  All humans are indoctrinated into their culture, women just as much as men.  Given that overall women don't have as much power as men, the sexism may not be as directly harmful but I do think both genders can be and are sexist.  The fact that I am uncomfortable that my female professor has a SAHH and not as much when my male professor has a SAHW does mean that I have some sexism.  I work hard to make sure my uncomfortableness does not affect my actions because I am aware of them, and that works to an extent.  It does not mean I am not sexist.

Emilyngh

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #88 on: June 07, 2014, 05:39:13 AM »
Maybe women want to work less. Plenty of women want to be house wives or stay-at-home-moms. You probably think I am wrong
I don't necessarily think that this isn't partly true...

But supposing it's true, why do women want to work less and earn less? It's not like having woman-parts should cause anyone to eschew lucrative careers... women are human beings, so (like men) they often want what they are told to want. And we collectively keep telling women to want to work less, stay at home, be a housewife and raise children. And we collectively keep telling men to want to earn more and aim for the top. It's still sexist.

Sure, there are lots of reasons for the gender wage gap. (So far we've identified three.) But however it's explained, the explanation is either going to acknowledge sexism, or be an example of it.

Quote
It could be argued that it is sexist that men are looked down upon for being stay-at-home-dads, or that it is embarrassing if a man's wife makes more money than him.
I agree! Those things are totally sexist... against women. These are two examples of men being judged for taking an "inferior" role which "should be" taken by a woman. The sexism is the implication that they ought to take the "superior" role because they are a man.

The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.

Thanks, Warfreak.   You do a great job responding.

warfreak2

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #89 on: June 07, 2014, 05:42:11 AM »
The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.
I would not necessarily agree with that.  All humans are indoctrinated into their culture, women just as much as men.  Given that overall women don't have as much power as men, the sexism may not be as directly harmful but I do think both genders can be and are sexist.  The fact that I am uncomfortable that my female professor has a SAHH and not as much when my male professor has a SAHW does mean that I have some sexism.  I work hard to make sure my uncomfortableness does not affect my actions because I am aware of them, and that works to an extent.  It does not mean I am not sexist.
Oh, agreed for sure. Perhaps "mainly propagated by" isn't exactly the right term. I don't just mean that men tend to spread sexist ideas more effectively, but also that those sexist ideas tend to be originated by men.

Whenever someone comes up with an example of "sexism against men", I just think, look more closely and you'll probably be able to trace that sexism back to men. If you think about a guy getting teased for earning less than his wife, for example, the people teasing him are probably men. If he is looked down on for being a stay-at-home parent, even if by women, it's still rooted in misogyny - the idea that staying at home to raise children is something a woman should do.

Emilyngh

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #90 on: June 07, 2014, 05:43:09 AM »
  The fact that I am uncomfortable that my female professor has a SAHH and not as much when my male professor has a SAHW does mean that I have some sexism. 

Are you my student-lol?   (I'm a prof with a SAHH).   

bikebum

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2014, 08:44:58 AM »
Maybe women want to work less. Plenty of women want to be house wives or stay-at-home-moms. You probably think I am wrong
I don't necessarily think that this isn't partly true...

But supposing it's true, why do women want to work less and earn less? It's not like having woman-parts should cause anyone to eschew lucrative careers... women are human beings, so (like men) they often want what they are told to want. And we collectively keep telling women to want to work less, stay at home, be a housewife and raise children. And we collectively keep telling men to want to earn more and aim for the top. It's still sexist.

Sure, there are lots of reasons for the gender wage gap. (So far we've identified three.) But however it's explained, the explanation is either going to acknowledge sexism, or be an example of it.


If women do want to work less, I don't know why. And if I offer an explanation, you will say I'm being sexist. Accept my religion, or you are going to hell! :P


Quote
It could be argued that it is sexist that men are looked down upon for being stay-at-home-dads, or that it is embarrassing if a man's wife makes more money than him.
I agree! Those things are totally sexist... against women. These are two examples of men being judged for taking an "inferior" role which "should be" taken by a woman. The sexism is the implication that they ought to take the "superior" role because they are a man.

The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.

That's based on the opinion that one role is inferior to the other. If you don't think that, it's pretty symmetric. The sexist part is that men and women are expected to fill different rolls, and they are looked down upon for not doing so. There are other things that men bitch about as being sexist against men, many involve the courts. I'm not going to list them because defending them is not the point. Point is, both genders are whiny bitches. In the spirit of re-appropriation: we need to grow some vagina!

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2014, 09:06:11 AM »
  The fact that I am uncomfortable that my female professor has a SAHH and not as much when my male professor has a SAHW does mean that I have some sexism. 

Are you my student-lol?   (I'm a prof with a SAHH).   
Do you work in a science related field?  Lol

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #93 on: June 07, 2014, 09:08:39 AM »
Maybe women want to work less. Plenty of women want to be house wives or stay-at-home-moms. You probably think I am wrong
I don't necessarily think that this isn't partly true...

But supposing it's true, why do women want to work less and earn less? It's not like having woman-parts should cause anyone to eschew lucrative careers... women are human beings, so (like men) they often want what they are told to want. And we collectively keep telling women to want to work less, stay at home, be a housewife and raise children. And we collectively keep telling men to want to earn more and aim for the top. It's still sexist.

Sure, there are lots of reasons for the gender wage gap. (So far we've identified three.) But however it's explained, the explanation is either going to acknowledge sexism, or be an example of it.


If women do want to work less, I don't know why. And if I offer an explanation, you will say I'm being sexist. Accept my religion, or you are going to hell! :P


Quote
It could be argued that it is sexist that men are looked down upon for being stay-at-home-dads, or that it is embarrassing if a man's wife makes more money than him.
I agree! Those things are totally sexist... against women. These are two examples of men being judged for taking an "inferior" role which "should be" taken by a woman. The sexism is the implication that they ought to take the "superior" role because they are a man.

The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.

That's based on the opinion that one role is inferior to the other. If you don't think that, it's pretty symmetric. The sexist part is that men and women are expected to fill different rolls, and they are looked down upon for not doing so. There are other things that men bitch about as being sexist against men, many involve the courts. I'm not going to list them because defending them is not the point. Point is, both genders are whiny bitches. In the spirit of re-appropriation: we need to grow some vagina!
But you don't have a reason why women "want" to work less nor any evidence that they do, why would you assume the answer is they want ti?  One reason could be gender wage gap.  I took a large time off than my husband because neither of us have parental leave pay and he made more so we had save up less for me to be out then him. 

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2014, 10:31:32 AM »
But you don't have a reason why women "want" to work less nor any evidence that they do, why would you assume the answer is they want ti?  One reason could be gender wage gap.  I took a large time off than my husband because neither of us have parental leave pay and he made more so we had save up less for me to be out then him.
How good and recent is the survey data on that though? I'm curious because given the forum we are on I would say that a lot of people would likely say that they want to work less because they want to have more of their own free time to spend doing things they enjoy and don't see the point in climbing the cooperate ladder. Let's face it, there is a lot of truth in the saying that "You don't lie on your deathbed wishing you spend more time at the office." Anecdotally I've known a couple people over the years of both genders that grew extremely tired of the office and laboratory politics (STEM fields) once their first child was born and actively looked for ways to reduce their workload and pretty much drew back from trying to climb the ladder.
They keep repeating it for the same reason you asked, because we think the behavior will go away.  The latest one I read was published this year which normally means a year to three years behind. 

bikebum

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2014, 11:43:54 AM »
Maybe women want to work less. Plenty of women want to be house wives or stay-at-home-moms. You probably think I am wrong
I don't necessarily think that this isn't partly true...

But supposing it's true, why do women want to work less and earn less? It's not like having woman-parts should cause anyone to eschew lucrative careers... women are human beings, so (like men) they often want what they are told to want. And we collectively keep telling women to want to work less, stay at home, be a housewife and raise children. And we collectively keep telling men to want to earn more and aim for the top. It's still sexist.

Sure, there are lots of reasons for the gender wage gap. (So far we've identified three.) But however it's explained, the explanation is either going to acknowledge sexism, or be an example of it.


If women do want to work less, I don't know why. And if I offer an explanation, you will say I'm being sexist. Accept my religion, or you are going to hell! :P


Quote
It could be argued that it is sexist that men are looked down upon for being stay-at-home-dads, or that it is embarrassing if a man's wife makes more money than him.
I agree! Those things are totally sexist... against women. These are two examples of men being judged for taking an "inferior" role which "should be" taken by a woman. The sexism is the implication that they ought to take the "superior" role because they are a man.

The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.

That's based on the opinion that one role is inferior to the other. If you don't think that, it's pretty symmetric. The sexist part is that men and women are expected to fill different rolls, and they are looked down upon for not doing so. There are other things that men bitch about as being sexist against men, many involve the courts. I'm not going to list them because defending them is not the point. Point is, both genders are whiny bitches. In the spirit of re-appropriation: we need to grow some vagina!
But you don't have a reason why women "want" to work less nor any evidence that they do, why would you assume the answer is they want ti?  One reason could be gender wage gap.  I took a large time off than my husband because neither of us have parental leave pay and he made more so we had save up less for me to be out then him.

I'm not assuming that; I threw it out as a possibility. I think there are too many unknowns to claim sexism. That view is not sexist.

Gin1984

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #96 on: June 07, 2014, 12:37:01 PM »
Maybe women want to work less. Plenty of women want to be house wives or stay-at-home-moms. You probably think I am wrong
I don't necessarily think that this isn't partly true...

But supposing it's true, why do women want to work less and earn less? It's not like having woman-parts should cause anyone to eschew lucrative careers... women are human beings, so (like men) they often want what they are told to want. And we collectively keep telling women to want to work less, stay at home, be a housewife and raise children. And we collectively keep telling men to want to earn more and aim for the top. It's still sexist.

Sure, there are lots of reasons for the gender wage gap. (So far we've identified three.) But however it's explained, the explanation is either going to acknowledge sexism, or be an example of it.


If women do want to work less, I don't know why. And if I offer an explanation, you will say I'm being sexist. Accept my religion, or you are going to hell! :P


Quote
It could be argued that it is sexist that men are looked down upon for being stay-at-home-dads, or that it is embarrassing if a man's wife makes more money than him.
I agree! Those things are totally sexist... against women. These are two examples of men being judged for taking an "inferior" role which "should be" taken by a woman. The sexism is the implication that they ought to take the "superior" role because they are a man.

The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.

That's based on the opinion that one role is inferior to the other. If you don't think that, it's pretty symmetric. The sexist part is that men and women are expected to fill different rolls, and they are looked down upon for not doing so. There are other things that men bitch about as being sexist against men, many involve the courts. I'm not going to list them because defending them is not the point. Point is, both genders are whiny bitches. In the spirit of re-appropriation: we need to grow some vagina!
But you don't have a reason why women "want" to work less nor any evidence that they do, why would you assume the answer is they want ti?  One reason could be gender wage gap.  I took a large time off than my husband because neither of us have parental leave pay and he made more so we had save up less for me to be out then him.

I'm not assuming that; I threw it out as a possibility. I think there are too many unknowns to claim sexism. That view is not sexist.
Except that this is an entire field of research (that has been going for over 30 years, to my knowledge, probably longer but I refuse to go into the stacks without a damn good reason), and they have determined the "reason".  And that reason is a inherent gender bias (psych/soc people don't call it sexism, lol) and the effects of that bias.  For example women who did succeed in the generation prior often worked more hours than the men (so you look at the hours put in by a female dean/chair/higher level tenure (I assume C level as well but not my interest so I don't know for certain) and it is higher than the average male in the same position).  That means that they expect more out of those in the next generation, which means those who want work life balance often go with male investigators if they have choice (because the men expect hour similar to their own, in the same way as the females) And who gets the choice? The top students.  So you have two PIs working the same hours, but the females are working more service hours (required by the chair, and that fact is supported by research which again I can post on Monday) so less research hours, they often get not the pick of grad students or post docs (ones doing most of the research) which means more hand holding which means again less bench work for PI and all of that, combined with inherit bias when picking tenure faculty equal less promotions for females. 
So, do we assume it is just women want this, or do we follow what research shows?  Which is that they are fighting against not only an external bias but an internal one because we have women and men as children that men jobs are one kind and women jobs are another kind and being a stay at home parent or a part time parent is a female possibility not a male. 
Based on my job throwing out ideas that don't come from previous evidence bothers me.  Especially when even the question is phrased in a subtle sexist way.  Now, given the demographics on this board, I assume you are male.  Most males are not THAT subtle so I assume that it was not an international phrasing.  Which just goes to show the biggest issue.  People are not educated about this, we don't want to admit our prejudices and then we do subtle things that still affect our culture in that way.

Argyle

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #97 on: June 07, 2014, 12:51:13 PM »
It happens so often, in fact pervasively: people from a group against whom there is bias argue that there is pervasive bias, and the people in the group that commits the bias argue against it.   White people claim there's very little racism, men claim there's very little sexism, etc. etc.  Numerous, detailed and rigorous studies show that the bias is there, and yet the groups that commit the bias very often keep arguing against it.

Now, I get why.  Nobody wants to be accused of objectionable behavior.  Everyone's offended by the idea that injustice is going on and they're on the wrong side of the divide.  Plus of course the people in the unaffected groups simply don't see a lot of it.  They don't grow up with the experience of bias on so many occasions, and it's just not on their radar generally.  If there's an instance in the news, the affected group picks up on it, unaffected groups probably don't notice it in the big welter of information coming at them.

But here's the thing.  We shouldn't let our defensiveness trump our open-mindedness.  "You say that's an instance of prejudice?  I sure hadn't considered that.  Hmm."  Not "That's not an instance!  All wrong!  Complainers!  Whiners!  You're just not taking responsibility for your own failures!" 

Plus let's be open to the fact that people in the affected categories will have had a much closer-up experience of the thing that unaffected people.  Maybe they know what they're talking about.  Very likely they do.  We don't have to explain their experience to them. 

Because really, the denial of the problem on the part of the unaffected groups is exactly the problem.  "There's no bias.  I don't see it."  "That's my point."

randymarsh

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #98 on: June 07, 2014, 04:07:34 PM »
The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.

lol wut

Got it: everything bad is because of men.

There are plenty of women who hold sexist views, and believe it or not, it's not because of men!

greaper007

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Re: walking home from school no longer accepted by the community
« Reply #99 on: June 07, 2014, 09:40:33 PM »
The difference between sexism against women and "sexism against men" is that sexism against women is mainly propagated by men, and "sexism against men" is mainly propagated by men.

lol wut

Got it: everything bad is because of men.

There are plenty of women who hold sexist views, and believe it or not, it's not because of men!

Groups in power positions can't really claim discrimination, racism, sexism etc.    That's like a CEO whining that her employees are mean to her.    The point of discrimination is that it puts negative views on groups of people that don't hold power positions.   

Some women hold power positions.    My wife has always made more money than me.   Yet, as a woman she's a member of a group that has been both historically oppressed and is currently oppressed.    Choose whatever rational you'd like for that, earnings, domestic violence, rape, educational levels, percentage of a group that holds positions of power etc.    Women are a minority group based on that rational.   

I'm not perfect and I've held racist and misogynistic views in the past, and they still occasionally come crawling up from my subconscious.   Still, I'd like to hope that we're all doing what we can to make the world a more just and equitable place.    Carefully choosing our words is perhaps the easiest way to do that.   

Instead of pussy say coward.   It describes how someone is behaving without putting down a group of people.