Author Topic: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)  (Read 8087 times)

LonerMatt

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #100 on: August 29, 2019, 11:02:11 PM »
I'm satisfied with my current level of strength. I'm sure if there's an apocalypse I'll be one of the first to go, but it's just not a priority of mine. I'd prefer to try and build a gentler world.

BTDretire

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #101 on: August 30, 2019, 12:23:49 PM »
This conversation is getting off-track. Let me help get it back where it needs to be:

1.) Yes, you can pay your student loans.
2.) No, I won't pay your student loans for you.
3.) Yes, you pay your student loans by not buying Starbucks (or takeout or beers at the bar or books at B&N, etc.)
4.) No, the government is not going to change laws to force other people to pay your student loans for you.
5.) Yes, you are going to need to suck it up, buttercup.
I quoted you on the Remy:All My Love video, hope you don't mind.

Boofinator

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #102 on: August 30, 2019, 03:18:46 PM »
KIDS ARE WEAK, YOU GOTTA MAKE THEM TOUGH. IT'S WHAT BEING A MAN IS ABOUT. LET THEM FREEZE. LET THEM FEEL PAIN. LET THEM LEARN TO RESPECT MONEY BY GOING IN DEBT. LET THEM FEEL LIKE SHITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

THAT'S HOW A MAN TEACHES A LESSON!

Do you really want to play the hyperbole game?

kids have it so tough these days. we should make college education free so they don't have to be under any debt. we should also give them $12,000 a year so they won't have to be under any living pressure. oh wait, some people need $20,000 a year? well maybe we should make it fair and give everyone $20,000 per year, we don't want to see any suffering or unfairness in the world. let's make electricity free, since people function best at 72f and we don't want them to pay huge electric bills. let's issue everyone a bedpan and catheter, sure don't want to make them suffer the long walk to the bathroom.

that's how society shows compassion.

Challenge doesn't equal suffering.

I'm all for challenge.

I am not in any way for suffering.

I agree. I feel paying off student loans is essentially on the challenge side of the spectrum rather than the suffering side.

Additionally, paying off one's debts (to the extent possible) is essential for a healthy society. The opposite of this sentiment is a form of theft, in that people will believe they can borrow money and not have to give it back.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #103 on: August 30, 2019, 03:21:22 PM »
KIDS ARE WEAK, YOU GOTTA MAKE THEM TOUGH. IT'S WHAT BEING A MAN IS ABOUT. LET THEM FREEZE. LET THEM FEEL PAIN. LET THEM LEARN TO RESPECT MONEY BY GOING IN DEBT. LET THEM FEEL LIKE SHITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

THAT'S HOW A MAN TEACHES A LESSON!

Do you really want to play the hyperbole game?

kids have it so tough these days. we should make college education free so they don't have to be under any debt. we should also give them $12,000 a year so they won't have to be under any living pressure. oh wait, some people need $20,000 a year? well maybe we should make it fair and give everyone $20,000 per year, we don't want to see any suffering or unfairness in the world. let's make electricity free, since people function best at 72f and we don't want them to pay huge electric bills. let's issue everyone a bedpan and catheter, sure don't want to make them suffer the long walk to the bathroom.

that's how society shows compassion.

Challenge doesn't equal suffering.

I'm all for challenge.

I am not in any way for suffering.

I agree. I feel paying off student loans is essentially on the challenge side of the spectrum rather than the suffering side.

Additionally, paying off one's debts (to the extent possible) is essential for a healthy society. The opposite of this sentiment is a form of theft, in that people will believe they can borrow money and not have to give it back.

The more a destructive behavior is normalized, the more people will do it.

LonerMatt

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #104 on: August 30, 2019, 05:12:19 PM »

I agree. I feel paying off student loans is essentially on the challenge side of the spectrum rather than the suffering side.

Additionally, paying off one's debts (to the extent possible) is essential for a healthy society. The opposite of this sentiment is a form of theft, in that people will believe they can borrow money and not have to give it back.

Obviously it depends on the size of the loan and the conditions with which is was organised. Some loans are definitely fine, some are usurious. I'm trying to get contrarians to look at the situation as a whole (in the context of wage stagnation, casualisation of the work force and increasing costs (tuition, text books, rent, etc) and potentially see that there are recipes for long term problems.

I'm not actually arguing for no debt or for people not having to pay for anything - I haven't made that point, nor will I be.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #105 on: August 31, 2019, 08:38:54 AM »
I think I agree with you more than it might seem.  Most of the problem of what is being sold to older kids lies at the feet of their educators; their parents not instilling the subtleties of the situation, extraordinary bloat in admin departments, lack of recursion in post sec(do these kids actually get jobs paying in their educated field?  Do colleges even care?)

I think partly it's the blind spot of career educators who also see their path as the recommended one--people that haven't worked in the competitive private sector and seen the ruthlessness of it.

Maybe that's my myopia showing. 

I think more education in high school should be built on an apprenticeship model--do you see the value and challenges of this field?  Does the work feel right for you?

We dispense all this info in a second order attempt to build expertise, and assume the groundwork will build itself.  It's backwards.

Further to this, the universities are ripe for restructuring.  The information is widely available and could be easily distributed at low cost, It's the accreditation end that's still complicated.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #106 on: August 31, 2019, 08:56:20 AM »
For what it's worth, I had a friend who was struggling up on Hillbilly Mountain as a very poorly paid high school social studies teacher. He was treated very disrespectfully by people who felt that social studies had no practical value and eventually fired because he didn't want to change athletes' grades for eligibility reasons. During all these troubles, he used the library and websites to learn to build computers and manage software and earned multiple certifications online in various types of systems. After he was fired by the high school, he packed up everything he owned and moved to the West Coast where he easily found work with just the certifications he earned online.

Recently, he sold his West Coast home for a massive profit and he's taking two years off from work to spend time with his kids after moving to his dream home in the country.

So... there is some merit to those who talk about learning a trade. People just need to focus on 21st century trades.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #107 on: August 31, 2019, 11:22:07 AM »
Most trades haven't changed that much since the 20th century.

SwordGuy

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #108 on: August 31, 2019, 03:13:00 PM »

If the child in question is raised in a foam-padded world where they don't get street crossing practice, it's reasonable to expect them to fail at this up to age 10. If the kid is raised on a farm and is used to handling livestock and driving tractors at age 10, or if the kid is encouraged to walk to school or to the bus stop, they are fully capable of crossing a street safely by age 5 or 6.

It's becoming increasingly acceptable to excuse stupid, short-sighted behavior because a person's "brain isn't fully developed", and to use that as a justification to deprive people of brain-development exercise (that is to say, decision making) opportunities. To my way of thinking-- and I may be the only human on the planet or at least in the United States who has this opinion-- the solution is to let kids have some low-stakes learning experiences so that their brains develop, instead of trying to communicate everything in a classroom. Let them have the experience of finding out what happens when they borrow a dollar from a friend or sibling and don't repay it. Let them have the experience of finding out what happens when they don't do their homework, or when they miss the bus and have to walk three miles to school. This involves allowing the child to become uncomfortable, while ideally stopping short of any serious physical danger.

You are not alone @TheGrimSqueaker !

Not only that, but if they learn how to deal with disappointment when it's just small stuff, they're less likely to off themselves when The Real World (TM) kicks their ass for a bit.    Resiliency can be taught and it can be learned, but not in a classroom.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #109 on: August 31, 2019, 06:46:11 PM »
Resilience can be taught and learned in a classroom, but the trend towards not focussing on winning/losing and not providing criticism or constructive feedback at a young age (so as to nurture "esteem") means that resilience is not being as taught as effectively. Ideally you want children "losing" (i.e. not getting what they want, immediately when they want it) as much as they are winning - whether it's in academics, sports, toys or debating - so that they don't get complacent or distorted view of how the world works.

LonerMatt

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #110 on: August 31, 2019, 08:27:51 PM »
All of which is challenge and none of which is suffering.

I worked in classrooms for 10 years, none of the things you're mentioning are as present as the internet makes them seem.

Just Joe

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Re: Waah! It's impossible to ever pay off student loan debt! (Article)
« Reply #111 on: September 02, 2019, 01:48:46 PM »

I think more education in high school should be built on an apprenticeship model--do you see the value and challenges of this field?  Does the work feel right for you?

....

Further to this, the universities are ripe for restructuring.  The information is widely available and could be easily distributed at low cost, It's the accreditation end that's still complicated.

I agree. Vocational classes at our local HS were often throw away students who didn't aspire to accomplish anything but waste time. The quality of instructor varied a great deal too. If only they put as much energy and quality into that program as they did college prep.