Author Topic: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People  (Read 29520 times)

Aushin

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The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« on: October 30, 2013, 05:20:08 PM »
http://tressiemc.com/2013/10/29/the-logic-of-stupid-poor-people/

The article seems to imply that poor people need to buy expensive things to impress rich people so the rich people will let them into society.

I don't know how I feel about it.  It feels to anecdotal to be anything but an absurd argument.

footenote

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2013, 05:31:34 PM »
"You have no idea what you would do if you were poor until you are poor."

HoneyBadger

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2013, 05:43:05 PM »
It happens.  About a year ago I was fixed up with a guy who was (supposedly) rich, but who in reality was probably high income, low net worth.  He was inordinately interested in the bag I was carrying and the car I drove. My non-logo Coach bag (my only bag, bought for durability) and my Acura RSX (nine years old, bought for reliability) barely passed muster.  He dumped me after he decided I wasn't "rich" for a woman who always wears designer clothes and sports a fresh mani-pedi at all times.  The joke is on him; judging from her profession she probably makes $24,000 a year and most likely has a six-figure credit card debt.  He would have fainted if he had seen the balance of my Vanguard account (Not that I was going to show it to him).

I'd rather be a pariah and be FIRE (I actually have lots of friends and found someone else).

KingCoin

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2013, 06:34:42 PM »
Is there merit to the notion that some groups of people put a value on signifiers of status, as evidenced by fashion and material things? I'm sure. But I think she argues something of a false dichotomy; either BMW's and $2,500 handbags or social and professional rejection. The presumed rejection experienced by the job applicant wearing a tank top rather than a silk shell (the brunt of her evidence) ultimately seems more of a social fuax-pas than a financial one.

While the article is well written and thoughtful, I view it as a somewhat convoluted way to justify status purchases, which, let's be real, are far more often made to impress peers and kindle a sense of self-worth than to move up the corporate ladder. There may be some wisdom in dressing for the job you want, but a $300 pressed suit that fits well will usually more than suffice, and anything beyond will have a rapidly diminishing marginal utility.  This is probably increasingly true in a world where status professionals are as likely to be found in jeans and a t-shirt (tech companies, hedge funds) and where things like flashy cars (or cars at all) are being eschewed by the younger generation.

It's also worth noting that status symbols often have the opposite of their intended effect with true "gatekeepers". Does a car with $30,000 of modifications signal that the driver is a wealthy and educated individual? Much more likely the opposite. Someone that walks into an interview for a secretary role with a Louis Vuitton bag? I'd immediately assume that that person owns a tacky knockoff or makes extremely poor financial decisions.

It's important to be presentable and well put together in many situations, but that doesn't necessarily cost a ton of money, and social grace will carry you a lot further than a pair of Louboutins and a Cartier watch.

Aushin

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2013, 07:00:51 PM »
It happens.  About a year ago I was fixed up with a guy who was (supposedly) rich, but who in reality was probably high income, low net worth.  He was inordinately interested in the bag I was carrying and the car I drove. My non-logo Coach bag (my only bag, bought for durability) and my Acura RSX (nine years old, bought for reliability) barely passed muster.  He dumped me after he decided I wasn't "rich" for a woman who always wears designer clothes and sports a fresh mani-pedi at all times.  The joke is on him; judging from her profession she probably makes $24,000 a year and most likely has a six-figure credit card debt. He would have fainted if he had seen the balance of my Vanguard account (Not that I was going to show it to him).

I'd rather be a pariah and be FIRE (I actually have lots of friends and found someone else).

This part made me laugh really hard lol well done

Aushin

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2013, 07:03:33 PM »
Is there merit to the notion that some groups of people put a value on signifiers of status, as evidenced by fashion and material things? I'm sure. But I think she argues something of a false dichotomy; either BMW's and $2,500 handbags or social and professional rejection. The presumed rejection experienced by the job applicant wearing a tank top rather than a silk shell (the brunt of her evidence) ultimately seems more of a social fuax-pas than a financial one.

While the article is well written and thoughtful, I view it as a somewhat convoluted way to justify status purchases, which, let's be real, are far more often made to impress peers and kindle a sense of self-worth than to move up the corporate ladder. There may be some wisdom in dressing for the job you want, but a $300 pressed suit that fits well will usually more than suffice, and anything beyond will have a rapidly diminishing marginal utility.  This is probably increasingly true in a world where status professionals are as likely to be found in jeans and a t-shirt (tech companies, hedge funds) and where things like flashy cars (or cars at all) are being eschewed by the younger generation.

It's also worth noting that status symbols often have the opposite of their intended effect with true "gatekeepers". Does a car with $30,000 of modifications signal that the driver is a wealthy and educated individual? Much more likely the opposite. Someone that walks into an interview for a secretary role with a Louis Vuitton bag? I'd immediately assume that that person owns a tacky knockoff or makes extremely poor financial decisions.

It's important to be presentable and well put together in many situations, but that doesn't necessarily cost a ton of money, and social grace will carry you a lot further than a pair of Louboutins and a Cartier watch.

I wasn't sure whether or not this was the right board for it.  You can tell there's a formidable brain behind the writing, but the conclusion is just ehhhh...

Peony

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2013, 07:39:54 PM »
Thought-provoking article, though. And some good comments below it.

KingCoin

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2013, 07:48:59 PM »
This is an interesting (rather mustachian) counterpoint:
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2013/10/30/why-i-wear-what-i-do/

I think he's generally sensitive to the fact that being a white, male, knowledge-worker substantially disencumbers him in the fashion department.

Richard3

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2013, 08:27:45 PM »
As long as consumption is a signal of social respectability then there will be some logic to conspicuous consumption by those seeking to improve perceptions of their social respectability (poor black and female are a trifecta here). The luxury of not caring about others impressions is only available to those who are fortunate enough / secure enough not to need others.

Let's move from finance to relationships for a parallel. I am single and of average physical attractiveness. This means that I need others (specifically females of about my age) to have positive perceptions of me. Now, I'm wealthy, and funny, and haven't been convicted of any felonies (let's assume that along with attractiveness, these are the three things that women are looking for - that I think this might explain me being single, but this is a hypothetical situation). These aren't things that are immediately obvious - all that is immediately obvious is that I am not a desirable mate because I am not attractive. So, to get the utcome I want from an interaction, I need to signal my positive attributes and the easiest way of doing this is by clothing and accessories (the $2500 handbag so to speak).

In a nutshell, consider the peacock. The only point of that tail is to show he is awesome enough to be able to have such a ridiculous tail and still survive. He must have awesome genes (which is what the peahen wants).


She might have wanted to pick a better example than a $2500 handbag, but at the same time, it's convenient shorthand.


KingCoin

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2013, 10:06:55 PM »
As long as consumption is a signal of social respectability then there will be some logic to conspicuous consumption by those seeking to improve perceptions of their social respectability (poor black and female are a trifecta here). The luxury of not caring about others impressions is only available to those who are fortunate enough / secure enough not to need others.

Yeah, while I don't dispute the thrust of her argument (that there's a heightened sensitivity to status within disenfranchised groups), I think there are other ways to approach the problem including sending the right signals in a financially responsible way (it's possible to dress well frugally) or pursuing career/social avenues that are less interested in status and more interested in effort and ability. Yeah, it's easier to whip out the credit card, but it's hard to argue that buying social respectability in order to advance yourself financially makes sense when you're, well, bankrupting yourself financially.

Let's move from finance to relationships for a parallel. I am single and of average physical attractiveness. This means that I need others (specifically females of about my age) to have positive perceptions of me. Now, I'm wealthy, and funny, and haven't been convicted of any felonies (let's assume that along with attractiveness, these are the three things that women are looking for - that I think this might explain me being single, but this is a hypothetical situation). These aren't things that are immediately obvious - all that is immediately obvious is that I am not a desirable mate because I am not attractive. So, to get the utcome I want from an interaction, I need to signal my positive attributes and the easiest way of doing this is by clothing and accessories (the $2500 handbag so to speak).

Likewise, while a Rolex and a Ferrari are the easiest solution, that route is not without its problems. Consider the negative selection bias of attracting the kind of woman who's interested in material status symbols and who will no doubt be looking forward to a gift of a matching rose gold Rolex. Probably better to pursue more a more sophisticated dating strategy than the peacock.

expatartist

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2013, 10:34:53 PM »
Thanks for posting. I also thought to post the article here. Not to say, "See it's OK to spend $2500!" but rather to consider the many reasons people spend money on things. Some reasons which I - and probably many of you, unless you come from a similar background to the writer - hadn't considered before.

Those of us who are born with certain skin color, or other features (perceived as attractive, or desirable or whatever), who are also raised with a certain accent considered to be 'educated/well off' will naturally have confidence, and find it much easier to reject the conventional. We know we can maneuver between classes and cliques.

We don't have to do the:
"dance in which I am adept: 6’2″, Black, 198 lbs.
I see the relaxation when I speak as well as I do and smile as brightly as I do.
That 1st boundary had been surmounted, “He’s not the Negro I saw on Fox News last night”.

Jamesqf

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2013, 10:38:07 PM »
Someone that walks into an interview for a secretary role with a Louis Vuitton bag? I'd immediately assume that that person owns a tacky knockoff or makes extremely poor financial decisions.

Except how many people, outside of fashion-related businesses, are even going to recognize the brand of the bag?

FiveSigmas

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2013, 11:36:27 PM »
Except how many people, outside of fashion-related businesses, are even going to recognize the brand of the bag?

Uh... besides the fact that it probably either has a giant "LV" on it or at least is dotted with a zillion "LV" logos? :-)

If someone showed you a Nike shoe or an Apple laptop, or a BMW car, could you identify it as such?

Edit: Missed a word.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 11:40:14 PM by FiveSigmas »

Richard3

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2013, 12:36:07 AM »
Quote
Yeah, while I don't dispute the thrust of her argument (that there's a heightened sensitivity to status within disenfranchised groups), I think there are other ways to approach the problem including sending the right signals in a financially responsible way (it's possible to dress well frugally) or pursuing career/social avenues that are less interested in status and more interested in effort and ability. Yeah, it's easier to whip out the credit card, but it's hard to argue that buying social respectability in order to advance yourself financially makes sense when you're, well, bankrupting yourself financially.

Ah, but now we're discussing an education / financial literacy / social conditioning problem not a signalling problem. Given the system most people believe they have to operate in the decision to buy expensive items for the purpose of respectability makes sense. Yes, if you know that the maze is made of paper, then you can take the direct route, but not everyone has taken the red pill (to mix my metaphors even more).

Quote
If they are worried about the brand of your clothes, they likely aren't someone you would care to date.
Quote
Likewise, while a Rolex and a Ferrari are the easiest solution, that route is not without its problems

But what if they're super hot? :)


For those of you concerned about my example, don't worry, it's not a particularly realistic depiction of either how I think dating works or my current approach to it. I just thought my example was a funny hypothetical model to illustrate how seemingly self-hurting signalling can be rational. That said, peacocking is a very valid strategy when you're most concerned about short term interest not long term compatibility though - although even that doesn't have to be expensive. 




NeverWasACornflakeGirl

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2013, 09:28:55 AM »
I didn't see this and posted it over on "Mustachianism around the web."  I don't think it really belongs on the Wall of Shame and Comedy because it's really thought-provoking.  She made me see this in an entirely different way.  Especially this:

"How do you put a price on the double-take of a clerk at the welfare office who decides you might not be like those other trifling women in the waiting room and provides an extra bit of information about completing a form that you would not have known to ask about? What is the retail value of a school principal who defers a bit more to your child because your mother’s presentation of self signals that she might unleash the bureaucratic savvy of middle class parents to advocate for her child? I don’t know the price of these critical engagements with organizations and gatekeepers relative to our poverty when I was growing up. But, I am living proof of its investment yield."

jfer_rose

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2013, 09:34:48 AM »
The thing I can't quite figure out my feelings about is the fact that the woman didn't get the job because she didn't know enough to wear a silk shell instead of a tank top. I'm a white collar female and I've never once owned a silk shell and will OFTEN wear tank tops as layering pieces with my work apparel.

Basically, I am livid that someone would get passed over for a job because she didn't wear a silk shell. I'm mad that we live in a world where people get judged by material possessions instead of the content of their character or ability to do a job.

DoubleDown

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2013, 11:38:26 AM »

For those of you concerned about my example, don't worry, it's not a particularly realistic depiction of either how I think dating works or my current approach to it. I just thought my example was a funny hypothetical model to illustrate how seemingly self-hurting signalling can be rational. That said, peacocking is a very valid strategy when you're most concerned about short term interest not long term compatibility though - although even that doesn't have to be expensive.

I think everything you've said is right on the money for finding either a short or long term relationship. It's a simple fact that anyone trying to optimize success in this society is going to do better putting their best foot forward, including how they dress and present themselves. We do it all the time (or at least we should) in all kinds of areas: dressing well for a job interview; cleaning, fixing up and staging a house to sell; wearing a suit to court to make a favorable impression. Why would anyone toss that success strategy when it comes to finding a mate? The fact is, everything else being equal, guys who dress well are going to do better with women.

We've already established that doesn't have to equate to buying crazy high end and expensive designer labels. Intentionally writing off a significant segment of society under the "why would I want anyone who cares about that stuff" notion seems short-sighted to me. You COULD show up to court or a professional office interview in shorts and flip flops, but it's not going to reflect well on you (not you, Richard, the general "you"). Again, I don't know why I would do things any differently if I was trying to pick up women.

Jamesqf

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2013, 11:48:19 AM »
Except how many people, outside of fashion-related businesses, are even going to recognize the brand of the bag?

Uh... besides the fact that it probably either has a giant "LV" on it or at least is dotted with a zillion "LV" logos? :-)

No, because - not being in, or being interested in, the fashion industry - I would have no idea what an "LV" logo on a bag meant.

Quote
If someone showed you a Nike shoe or an Apple laptop, or a BMW car, could you identify it as such?

Shoe, probably not.  Laptop, yes (even without seeing the logo) because I work in the computer industry.  (But given my biases, an Apple would signify negative status.)  BMW maybe, but then I have some interest in cars.

oldtoyota

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2013, 11:52:01 AM »
The thing I can't quite figure out my feelings about is the fact that the woman didn't get the job because she didn't know enough to wear a silk shell instead of a tank top. I'm a white collar female and I've never once owned a silk shell and will OFTEN wear tank tops as layering pieces with my work apparel.

Basically, I am livid that someone would get passed over for a job because she didn't wear a silk shell. I'm mad that we live in a world where people get judged by material possessions instead of the content of their character or ability to do a job.

In the article, I though the issue was race more than the kind of clothing. If you are white, maybe you can wear a tank. If you are not white, you can't wear a tank. There's a double standard, often.

boy_bye

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2013, 11:54:14 AM »
The thing I can't quite figure out my feelings about is the fact that the woman didn't get the job because she didn't know enough to wear a silk shell instead of a tank top. I'm a white collar female and I've never once owned a silk shell and will OFTEN wear tank tops as layering pieces with my work apparel.

Basically, I am livid that someone would get passed over for a job because she didn't wear a silk shell. I'm mad that we live in a world where people get judged by material possessions instead of the content of their character or ability to do a job.

In the article, I though the issue was race more than the kind of clothing. If you are white, maybe you can wear a tank. If you are not white, you can't wear a tank. There's a double standard, often.

yes. just like how, if you're a woman and you speak your mind, you're a pushy bitch, whereas if you're a dude, you're assertive and strong.

it's not hard and fast, but the tendency is there ...

Don Voice

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2013, 01:38:18 PM »
I think what the author is getting at is Adam Smith's idea of a linen shirt:

“A linen shirt … is, strictly speaking, not a necessary of life. Adam Smith. The Greeks and Romans lived, I suppose, very comfortably though they had no linen. But in the present times, through the greater part of Europe, a creditable day-labourer would be ashamed to appear in public without a linen shirt, the want of which would be supposed to denote that disgraceful degree of poverty which, it is presumed, nobody can well fall into without extreme bad conduct.”

It's not a new concept, and her example of a $2500 handbag isa bit over the top, but the idea of spending above the minimum on clothing and other cultural requirements just to fit in an progress financially is well established. Similar to IBM's white shirts.

Dezrah

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2013, 01:39:47 PM »
This was one of the best essays I have ever read, both in terms of writing style and subject matter.

This reminds me of a scene from the move The Aviator.  Howard Hughes has long since established his fortune after coming from impoverished beginnings.  He’s now dating a famous actress (I forget which one) and goes to meet her family for the first time.  Turns out they’re from really old money and each family member basically slacks off each day and thinks of themselves as eccentric artists.  When Hughes starts talking about business and finance a little bit at the table, the mother pretentiously interrupts him and says “Oh we don’t like to talk about money.”  “That’s because you’ve always had it,” snaps Hughes.

This scene has stuck with me ever since.  How much do I not understand because I’ve always simply been one way?  And I’m not just talking about money.  “Oh we don’t like to talk about privilege.”  “That’s because you’ve always had it.”

NeverWasACornflakeGirl

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2013, 02:11:36 PM »
This was one of the best essays I have ever read, both in terms of writing style and subject matter.
...
How much do I not understand because I’ve always simply been one way?  And I’m not just talking about money.  “Oh we don’t like to talk about privilege.”  “That’s because you’ve always had it.”

Agreed!!  This is going to stick with me for a long, long time.

SisterX

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2013, 02:26:28 PM »
The thing I can't quite figure out my feelings about is the fact that the woman didn't get the job because she didn't know enough to wear a silk shell instead of a tank top. I'm a white collar female and I've never once owned a silk shell and will OFTEN wear tank tops as layering pieces with my work apparel.

Basically, I am livid that someone would get passed over for a job because she didn't wear a silk shell. I'm mad that we live in a world where people get judged by material possessions instead of the content of their character or ability to do a job.

I agree that it's a downright stupid way to interview someone, but it does happen.  However, I think the big problem the author is making is to assume that just because something is being perceived as expensive, it has to be expensive.  The interview candidate could perhaps have found the necessary (if she'd known it) silk shell at an outlet, thrift shop, or consignment store.  It would have given the necessary appearance without the jaw-dropping, ridiculous cost.
While I loathe the idea that "clothes make the man", it does have some basis in how others perceive you.  My husband's former boss once mentioned to him that the way he'd dressed for the interview was a factor in the decision to hire him.  The clothes weren't, by any means, designer apparel, but it was obvious that they were the nicest clothes my husband owned.  The fact that he was willing to dress up showed that he was eager for the job and the hope was that he would be a solid, hard-working employee because of it.  The fact that other candidates didn't dress up because "it's just a mining job" reflected poorly on them.
In the same vein, I know that my boss's boss doesn't like jeans at work.  There's no policy against them, and that won't change anytime soon, but because she doesn't like them I make a point to wear something other than denim on days when I'll be somewhere we might meet.  She'll never know that those slacks or that skirt were bought at Value Village, but I'll be perceived as taking care of my appearance and as being more professional because of it.  I see it as not much different than having to watch what I say at work.  And really, wearing a skirt once in a while is much easier than not telling that one stupid woman just how horrible she is.  :)

brewer12345

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2013, 03:04:01 PM »
Heh, the clothes may make the man, but I arrived in my new city for the penultimate interview for my current job only to find that I had pulled the wrong suit out of the closet and there was no way to get the waist buttoned/zipped.  So I borrowed a large safety pin from the front desk of the hotel and had the day of interviews with my suit jacket on and firmly buttoned.

projekt

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2013, 03:46:11 PM »
When I was in software, I showed up to an interview with a tie once, and got lots of funny looks. Got the job though.

Gerard

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2013, 04:33:35 PM »
I thought there was some food for thought in the piece. Watching the black members of my family interact with gatekeepers, I completely accept that there's often a need (and even more often a felt need) to be cleaner, smarter, safer, more organized, better dressed, better coiffed, and better spoken, just to get the respect that the white members get by just showing up. I'm not sure I would want to generalize the writer's entire experience to every other industry, though... surely cosmetics is going to be a particularly status-conscious, superficial world?

Also, and I apologize for the cheap shot, but "half a phd " = "no phd". It's like calling yourself a runner because you entered a marathon.

Richard3

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2013, 05:11:13 PM »
You COULD show up to court or a professional office interview in shorts and flip flops, but it's not going to reflect well on you (not you, Richard, the general "you"). Again, I don't know why I would do things any differently if I was trying to pick up women.

I'm a software product manager in a new industry. People are surprised when I show up to interviews (or first day at a job where I was hired over the phone) in a suit. :). I don't like wearing a suit - I'm a very shorts and flipflops guy, but I find having a special costume for serious occasions helps me be formal and serious. I have special costumes (or pre-determined outfits, since there's some overlap) for early round dates, the gym, the office, hiking, soccer, basketball, martial arts, etc, why not have one for interviews?


You are a runner if you enter a marathon, if you didn't finish then you're also a quitter, but you're still a runner. Perhaps that's still a cheap shot but I can't resist them. 

In defence the half-phd (and assuming they aren't actively working towards it now, in which case half phd is accurate ) - Your analogy would only be true if marathons had competitive entry criteria. If I qualified for the New York Marathon, which only took the best 50% of runners (or whatever) even if I didn't finish, that would be an achievement and suggests I am a better runner than someone who didn't qualify.

FiveSigmas

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2013, 09:25:57 PM »
And to the poster above about the Louis Vuitton bag...It could have flat out said Louis Vuitton on the bag and not meant a damn thing to me except maybe the same thing Nike, Apple, and BMW would; that this person spends a lot of money on things that I feel are not remotely worth the cost and very possibly has their priorities mixed from my point of view

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that everyone places (or should place) value judgments based on the brand of products other people use or wear. My point was just that some brands are very recognizable, and you don't have to be in the industry to recognize them. This isn't surprising, since companies spend enormous amounts of money and effort marketing their brand, and many are very good at it.

I idled away half an hour playing a computer game a few months ago that consisted of being shown a logo and then having to identify the brand. I was surprised (and a bit embarrassed) at the number that I could identify.

FiveSigmas

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2013, 09:50:03 PM »
Quote
If someone showed you a Nike shoe or an Apple laptop, or a BMW car, could you identify it as such?

Shoe, probably not.  Laptop, yes (even without seeing the logo) because I work in the computer industry.  (But given my biases, an Apple would signify negative status.)  BMW maybe, but then I have some interest in cars.

This is an honest question: Can you tell which of these is a Nike shoe?


Richard3

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2013, 10:18:57 PM »
But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the obvious branding on the fake shoe or the real shoe? Now, a clever man would put the branding on the real shoe because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I'm not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the obvious branding. But you must have known I was not a great fool; you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

blah blah blah Australians are all criminals. :)

arebelspy

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2013, 10:30:14 PM »
Quote
If someone showed you a Nike shoe or an Apple laptop, or a BMW car, could you identify it as such?

Shoe, probably not.  Laptop, yes (even without seeing the logo) because I work in the computer industry.  (But given my biases, an Apple would signify negative status.)  BMW maybe, but then I have some interest in cars.

This is an honest question: Can you tell which of these is a Nike shoe?



Is this a trick question?  It's the one with the giant swish on the side.  That's why they brand it the way they do, with logos and such, because of the recognized image.

See: shoes with red bottoms, coach purses, Apple products, etc.  They're made to be recognized.
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brewer12345

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2013, 10:33:08 PM »

blah blah blah Australians are all criminals. :)

Its a country that appears to have given the world the profession of the "standover man." What's not to like?

I can tell which one has the Nike logo.  Which one is the Nike shoe?  Ummm...

girly mustache

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2013, 11:33:23 PM »
I live in a very "working class" city. Almost 80% of the kids at my daughters school qualify for free-reduced meals (kids that qualify can get breakfast, lunch and a take home dinner). At the same time, the number of large SUV's, Mercedes and BMW's that drop off kids at school in the morning mind blowing. I completely see where people believe that they need to portray a status to feel accepted. On the other hand, I drive my little 2006 Scion XA, wear my jeans and t-shirt and recognize how lucky i am to have the professional knowledge and experience that allow me to not need the status to remain gainfully employed.. It's something I am very grateful for...

gooki

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2013, 12:52:41 AM »
In an ideal world, people would be judged by their character and personal worthiness but this is not Disney land and the truth is that you will be judged by your appearance and other external factors.  Dressing well, being articulate and having good manners will take you far if you grew up poor.

It will also take you far if you grew up middle class. A poorly dressed, incomprehensible and impolite white male from a middle class background will also find gaining employment challenging.

The key is employers are looking for people who will not only do a good job, but will fit in well with the rest of the team, and meet customer expectations (if it's a customer facing role).

I personally over dress up by one step in an initial interview, and then dress down to meet the dress code of the workplace for the second interview to help portray a message of fitting in.

It's also important not to take the rejections personally, there is always someone else out there that is "better" than you. So rejection doesn't always mean you are incapable of doing the job, or not a good fit.

To wrap up, it takes knowledge and confidence to fit in. Throwing money at a situation to boost your confidence can work, but it's not the only way. And thankfully low cost access to information will continue to lower the barrier to knowledge.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 02:14:34 AM by gooki »

Richard3

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2013, 02:21:48 AM »
But if you don't pick up those three things while growing up middle class, you're probably somewhat defective. To pick them up when you're not in an environment where they are the way of doing things, that is much harder. It's like the difference between learning Spanish because your family speak it and learning it at school.

gooki

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2013, 03:26:00 AM »
Agreed, so what's the solution? Keep the status quo, or educate the masses or something else?

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2013, 06:16:28 AM »
That's a well written and thought provoking article. As for dressing up, the last time I needed a suit and a tie was for the interview in my current place of employment. It's expected for an occasion like that, but otherwise our everyday dress code is a lot more relaxed.

A dress might not make a man or a woman, but I also wouldn't hire a man who came to an interview for a white collar job in jeans and polo shirt, with dirty hair or obviously hangover. The reason is because this shows a certain kind of social cluelessness and disrespect for the company who might be paying you substantial amounts of money.

Rural

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2013, 08:19:41 AM »
I did grow up poor, and female, and with an accent that would have been a real limitation to me had I left my native area of the country. This article definitely strikes a chord. $2500 bags are never a necessity, but some things that we might think of as extravagant really are necessary sometimes.

I do wish the writer had talked a little bit about ways to accomplish the necessary status symbols inexpensively; those ways exist (under a blouse? The polyester shell is as good as the silk one). But that article was not written for the poor who need those tips (and frankly, most of them know the tips already). It was written for those who come from privilege, who see a poor person with a status symbol and pass judgement. For all we know, that status symbol did come from the thrift store. All of mine did, and still do now that I'm not poor. The article was meant to explain to those who have never been poor, not to help out those who would like to become not-poor-anymore.

Here's another example of what the author is talking about courtesy of Reba McEntire, who also knows what it's like: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1AmoTzg_XFY

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2013, 08:36:35 AM »
I do get this article and I don't.  On the one hand, I dress up for certain occasions for respect.  Job interviews and my son's Dr. appointments come to mind.  I have found that when I am dressed more professionally when I go to the doctors, I am treated as person with intelligence.  For me (mostly SAHM), this might be nice jeans, and sweater and boots.  I have no idea if they would treat me otherwise, but I want them to know they can talk to me about my son's medical issues without using small words.  I see parents bringing in their kids to the Dr in sweat pants, tank tops and flip-flops.  Are they treated differently?  No idea, but I know my kid's Dr respects us and our opinion in his care. 

I do understand about language.  That's a signal of education.

I just disagree about the name brands of things.  I couldn't care less about the brand, if someone had a nice well-fitting suit or outfit.  I own one Dooney and Bourke bag that I purchased 20 years ago when I worked in retail and cared about such things.  I prefer my healthy back bag (http://www.ameribag.com) instead.  My car is a paid off 2006 Odyssey and DH drives a 1998 Toyota Sienna.  Our kids go to public school and State University.  And we make a healthy six figure income and save over half of it. 

On the other hand, I work in a medical office in a poorer side of town.  From my work I've seen a few examples:  One man complains that his $13.98 coinsurance will leave him no money for food, but he drives a new VW Jetta.  Most of the women wear fake nails and have expensive purses.  Their sweatsuit (juicy couture) cost more than my professional work outfit.  Some of their kids go to private school and they all have cell phones, and most are smart phones.  If the poor spend money for conspicuous consumption and to get more respect, they are doing it wrong and perpetuating the problem by digging themselves in deeper in debt.

Rural

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2013, 08:55:55 AM »
As with most things, there's a right way and a wrong way (or many wrong ways) to do the status symbol as a path to acceptance thing. Clearly the Juicy sweatsuit is one wrong way, but I'd venture that to do nothing is also a wrong way.

Careful planning followed by spending (even difficult spending) on job interview outfits is a right way. With luck, that will be followed by more of that difficult spending to line up a few days' work attire.

But there's a certain amount that has to be done to land the interview in the first place, whether that's another set of eyes on a resume when no one you know has the education to proofread, the fuel to get to the library to submit applications online (and to go back regularly to check for responses!), or the cost of a phone line or cell that you can guarantee will be answered fairly professionally and have a respectable voicemail greeting. Part of the writer's point is that for those who have never not had those things, it's hard to imagine not having them. They seem easy unless they're not there, and they, too, have a cost.

I've had the privilege of living in both worlds. I know it's made me a better professor, and, I hope, it's given me broader horizons that I'd have had otherwise.

Greenbeard

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2013, 09:32:43 AM »
Like it or not, people buy status symbols to try and increase their perceived status.  The fact that those things represent "wasted" money is important to the entire psychology of the phenomenon.

A great example of this taken to the extreme: rappers eating money sandwiches, recording the event and putting it on Youtube.  If you've never seen this, google it, it happens.

The message here is: "I make money, and I'm young enough and successful enough to continue to make lots of money, so I'm not worried about wasting it."

On the other hand saving money sends the opposite message.  "I make some money now, but I'm concerned that in the future I will not be able to continue, so I'm saving it."

The latter message is not a great message to send to a potential mate (speaking on a strictly primal level).

We see this all over the animal kingdom. 

Birds growing huge, bright feathers.  This seems like a waste of resources.  But the message it sends is: I'm so successful and powerful I can waste dangerous amount of resources, making myself a target for predictors and limiting my movement, and STILL I'm successful enough to survive.

Science has shown that species of animals where the males use showy displays to attract mates have less intelligent females. 
http://www.livescience.com/15484-showy-males-stupid-females.html


 

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2013, 09:34:58 AM »
Here's another example of what the author is talking about courtesy of Reba McEntire, who also knows what it's like: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1AmoTzg_XFY

great post, and, slightly OT, but i love this song -- i used to cover it with my band! the line "i mighta been born just plain white trash but fancy was my name" gives me chills every time.

here's the original version by bobbie gentry -- she wrote it in 1969.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4ZCrMESar8

Rural

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2013, 09:58:47 AM »
Here's another example of what the author is talking about courtesy of Reba McEntire, who also knows what it's like: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1AmoTzg_XFY

great post, and, slightly OT, but i love this song -- i used to cover it with my band! the line "i mighta been born just plain white trash but fancy was my name" gives me chills every time.

here's the original version by bobbie gentry -- she wrote it in 1969.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4ZCrMESar8

Also off topic, but did you notice Reba's staging was inspired by Gentry's?

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2013, 10:37:53 AM »
Quote
there was a price we had to pay to signal to gatekeepers that we were worthy of engaging. It meant dressing well and speaking well. It might not work. It likely wouldn‘t work but on the off chance that it would, you had to try. It was unfair but, as Vivian also always said, “life isn’t fair little girl.”

When I visited the palace of Versailles, I remember a guide said that the only barrier to obtaining admittance to the  royal palace at the time of Marie Antoinette was being "properly" dressed (and I will assume speaking properly and perhaps having a few servants in tow went along with that.)  It seems likely that the first step of being "properly" dressed at the time was to have a complexion white as snow, which implied you did not have to work outside. 

How far have we come from that?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 11:42:11 AM by Zamboni »

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2013, 11:08:19 AM »
1. Great comment on handicap principle, Greenbeard!

2. I think most of us agreed that Chaps suit will get you a job just like Boss suit (unless we're not talking about some Wall Street job, which is anyways quite far from out subject).

3. Trying to be optimistic, when I see some poor kid with a brand new iPhone I think "Not best move kid. Oh well, at least company with the biggest share in VTSAX got another sale. Ka-ching". Don't get me wrong, I really care for this particular kid; however, I tend not to forget that this consumerist society is the reason of my portfolio's performance.

projekt

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2013, 11:22:02 AM »
This ties in with the healthcare thing pretty well. There was a time when I could not work due to illness but could not get disability. I had to continue paying for COBRA insurance. I had savings but eventually, I could no longer afford the insurance, so I went to social services and got Family Health Plus in NY, which is a medicaid-sort of thing. It's free but you pay low co-pays on things instead of everything being free. So an insurance company essentially ate all my savings until the state got to take over. (Actually, my employer self-insured, so does that mean that they kept all the COBRA payments? Huh.) I'm pretty sure that the premiums were substantially more than the insurance ever had to pay out for me.

If I hadn't been thrifty, I could have bought a car, maybe a fancy computer, and all that until I had no more savings. Then I would have been in the same position with no non-essential assets and no money, and the State would have taken over earlier.

Of course, if there were no safety net, then I would have been SOL, probably dead by now. This is why I generally think that NY, in spite of the graft and dirty politics, at least can organize things with some heart. I'd hate to have been in the same situation in other states that have pretty heartless rules. A lot of people who have earned good money and saved it feel an injustice when their tax money is used to help out people who cannot plan. I don't argue much with people like that but I support the safety net. I tell people that there are other ways of funding things so that it seems less unfair, like the NHS in the UK funded by a VAT.

For a lot of people, it seems that having money to spend is rare event and they feel they deserve to do it when they can. I read the original article as a sort of excuse-making, saying that these purchases are actually good things in some twisted way. But they are not really good in any way.

I used to work in a very poor fishing town. When things were good in the industry, people had money and they bought crazy things they couldn't afford. Instead of saving, they would just get what they could when the money was there. Then, when hard times came, they looked for relief, which usually came in some manner. If you were not in the fishing industry, during hard times the fishermen would expect services for free, because they needed it and couldn't pay it. People would tell me that their truck payment was so high that they couldn't possibly be expected to pay their other bills. On a one-to-one level, it does make your blood boil. I would tell my staff that they shouldn't have personal feelings about it and try to treat the clients with respect even when they are disrespectful.

However, the psychology of the thing is not going to change because other people look down on poor people, or by removing the social safety net. They way to change the psychology is to make it OK for people not to want everything on TV. Change hip hop culture so that it glorifies something other than labels. (Yo, that's fifty dollars for a T-shirt). Question people who say things like "I like German Engineering™." (?) Ask people if their car is making them happy, especially their car payment. Tell people you're actually excited about your quality vehicle from 1998 (I'll sell in 2018), your bitchin' 1993 bicycle that you've kept on the road yourself, your toolset that you built your furniture from, your $20/month (or less or no) phone. In my future, I see bragging rights as telling people that they tried to sell you a Maserati, but it just wasn't worth the price. Telling people that you took on a work project because you wanted to raise $50,000 for an important charity. Life being about being a good person, who does good work, not consuming and consuming and consuming.

Jamesqf

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2013, 12:17:43 PM »
This is an honest question: Can you tell which of these is a Nike shoe?



Honest answer: not until I had read the other comments.


Jamesqf

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2013, 12:32:11 PM »
Is this a trick question?  It's the one with the giant swish on the side.  That's why they brand it the way they do, with logos and such, because of the recognized image.

See: shoes with red bottoms, coach purses, Apple products, etc.  They're made to be recognized.

Sure, but recognition of a logo or trademark requires that the viewer 1) has been exposed to an environment, say TV advertising, from which the logo->brand association can be learned; and 2) cares enough to bother learning.  Now in my case, I don't get much of #1 for most products, and fall pretty short on #2.

So I'd recognize Apple computers, but from being in the business (and having acquired strong negative associations to the brand), not from advertising.  Purses and fashionable shoes I don't recognize, as I inhabit a world where those are irrelevant.  But I might recognize Asolo & Merrill hiking boots, Ariat riding boots. Madschus skis, or other things that matter in my world.

So the point here is that if you're thinking about buying expensive "status" product X to e.g. impress a job interviewer, it makes sense to think about whether the interviewer will actually recognize it as a status symbol.  'Cause you know, sometimes a purse is just a purse :-)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 01:06:26 PM by Jamesqf »

C. K.

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Re: The Logic Of Stupid Poor People
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2013, 06:22:45 PM »
But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would ....

blah blah blah Australians are all criminals. :)

Ha! I see what you did there. One of the funniest monologues ever!

Carry on,
CK