Author Topic: The GMC hummer is coming back.  (Read 6273 times)

Just Joe

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2020, 10:06:53 AM »
Always, always use the right tool for the job at hand. That means don't use an f-150 to commute to your office job, but it also means don't try to haul or tow big loads with your honda fit.

It's just a weird blind spot this forum has about trucks, that there's no reason to own one, ever, you can do everything with a car, etc.

Part of the reason we're able to have the car we have (2012 Chevy Volt) is that anything it can't do, we can do with the truck.  So things like ground clearance, cargo space, etc... just don't matter much.  If the car can't do it, the truck can.  So the car is optimized for the common case - round trips into town, with two kids, and a moderate amount of stuff (grocery run, small Costco run, small Home Depot run, etc).  Anything it won't do, the truck will.

Dragging this back on topic, somewhat, I expect GMC will ensure the electric Hummer is a quite competent tow vehicle, in real world conditions.

Don't we all live in cities with buses and streetcars? Don't we all live where everything can be delivered like pizza? ;)

Yes, life can be very different depending on where a Moustachian lives.

I've towed some big, stupid loads with a smallish vehicle. Also towed cross-continent with a quality rig.

Its one thing to make something move, its another to make it stop in a controlled manner.

I've towed 4500 pounds with a 3300 lb tow vehicle. Speeds were in the 25 mph range on flat ground in very light traffic, small town. Worked perfectly.

I prefer the math to be the opposite - heavy tow vehicle, light load, big brakes...

Plenty of You Tube compilation videos of tow jobs going wrong.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f80/can-a-blazer-tow-a-5th-wheel-9357.html

ixtap

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2020, 10:14:00 AM »
This seems kinda goofy and ridiculously overkill.

My understanding is that it's safe for five large men to drive in a small car, right?  Five guys can easily weigh more than a thousand lbs . . . probably at least 200 lbs more if they're carrying luggage in the trunk . . . and I don't think many would have problems taking a car with five people in it on the interstate.

Your understanding is wrong.  "If it fits, it flies!" is not a valid way to reason about vehicle payload capacity.

The GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) for small cars can be hard to find online, but typically, you've got around 800 lbs of useful payload capacity on small cars, sometimes a bit less if the car has a bunch of options like air conditioning.  So your "five guys and luggage" is 50% over the rated payload capacity.

Huh.  I'd have never thought that putting five large guys in a small car violates safety rules.

I have overloaded a small vehicle with groceries for a day care center. It definitely drives differently!

FINate

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2020, 10:22:22 AM »
TIL apparently I need to buy a truck.  I have been known to occasionally load our Corolla up with five large adults and some stuff in the trunk to drive around . . . which turns out to be unsafe and insane behavior.  You mustachians think an F350 would be able to handle this abuse, or do I need to go bigger?

I have a hard time believing in a country filled with lawyers that a car specifically designed to hold five adults it is actually unsafe to do so. Heck we have quite a few plus sized Americans that would technically overload* that corolla with just 2 people.....This is also in a country where Toyota settled for a billion dollars with old people despite doing nothing wrong.

*1000#'s of concrete bags in the trunk is probably a bad idea.

Back to the Hummer, why not? Anyway we can move away from the brodozer culture is a good way!

The specs of every car are well published and are in the owner's manual and even placed on the vehicle. If someone tried to sue because they overloaded their vehicle they'd be laughed out of court.

You can't misuse a product and then blame the manufacturer.

About 25 years ago I was driving to school and hit a pedestrian. I was not at fault, wasn't speeding and she  was jaywalking in very dangerous location/situation. But even so, it was a 2-3 year legal ordeal involving multiple depositions and hearings. They probed every angle, down to details such as what I ate the day before, how much sleep I got, and so on. [Best advice I got from my attorney was to write down my recollection of all the event details ASAP and stick to these details...everything else is simply "I don't recall."] This experience gave me a profound respect for the legal process, what it's like to be on the record, and how anything that may have even remotely contributed to a crash is certain to come to light.

If you exceed the operating specs of a vehicle and this results in a crash not only will you not have a case against the manufacturer, I can almost guarantee that you the driver/owner will be liable and they will come after you. How would you feel looking loved ones of the deceased/injured in the eyes in a court of law while claiming that you didn't think GVWRs mattered, or a theory that tow ratings are a conspiracy to sell pickups/SUVs? It's not worth it.

Syonyk

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2020, 10:40:11 AM »
I have a hard time believing in a country filled with lawyers that a car specifically designed to hold five adults it is actually unsafe to do so.

Prove to me that a small car is "specifically designed to hold five adults."  You can use whatever manufacturer-provided information you wish, but engineering data matters, marketing data doesn't.  And I seriously doubt you'll find marketing materials showing a car overweight.  They're not dumb.

"It has 5 seats, so it should hold 5 adults!" is not proof it's designed to hold 5 adults.  It may very well be able to hold 5 small adults, but you can't just ignore the engineering data because you want to.

In small aircraft, there are planes with 4 seats that simply won't carry 4 adults.  A Cessna 172 is mostly a "2+2" airplane - two adults up front, two kids in the back.  You can sometimes fit four adults depending on size/weight/fuel, but if the question is "four adults in a 172," you'd better have your weight and balance sheets out, because you're probably going to be over gross, and you stand a good chance of having CG issues.  Four adults and baggage?  Just not something a 172 will do.

A 182 is a four adult airplane, but, again, check the W&B, because you're not going to take four adults, baggage, and full long range tanks without being badly overweight (unless they're particularly skinny adults).

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Heck we have quite a few plus sized Americans that would technically overload* that corolla with just 2 people.....This is also in a country where Toyota settled for a billion dollars with old people despite doing nothing wrong.


I don't think you're fitting 400+ lb people in a small car.

And I'm going to assume you didn't read the reports on Toyota's accelerator system/firmware/etc, because that was a steaming pile of crap that shouldn't have been in a roadworthy vehicle in the first place.  It was vulnerable to a wide variety of failure modes that would lead to unintended acceleration.  Did any of those trip?  No idea.  But the design of that particular module was so awful that it could easily have been responsible for it.

I've towed 4500 pounds with a 3300 lb tow vehicle. Speeds were in the 25 mph range on flat ground in very light traffic, small town. Worked perfectly.

Yeah, but you understood the limitations and conditions, so were able to reason about it.  I've flat towed a pickup with an old Subaru before - thing probably outweighed me by a factor of two, but it needed moving, I was around, and there was someone in it to run the brakes.

Also, that 5th wheel abomination you linked is one of the scariest things I've seen - and I've seen some pretty beat up cars in my day.  Driven most of 'em.

Jon Bon

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2020, 10:58:21 AM »
Planes ≠ Cars

Lets leave that one alone. I fully believe you are right about a 2+2 Cessna or whatever. I know nothing about planes. I obviously am not going to prove to you anything about load/weight in a car. But its clear that the intent is that cars are designed to hold 5 adults. Why you ask?

*Rant alert*

GD CAR SEATS! Cars are in fact built to hold ONLY full sized humans Likely between 75-250 pounds. I think I own maybe a dozen car seats? So I am a freakin expert in how stupid car seats are!

*Rant over*

I don't think either of us are going convince the other, and that is fine. IMO Cars are designed to hold 5 people they have 5 seats and 5 belts. If they could not do this there would be an epidemic of car crashes due to people simply filling the seats that they bought the car with.

BACK TO THE HUMMER!

I am at least very interested in how it turns out. I think EVs are pretty sweet and they do have a appealing value proposition, as well as evoking emotion and a cool factor.

However if i see one more guy post: "Well I pull a 50k# 5th wheel over the Rockies in winter for 900 miles with out ever stopping to pee, so this will never work"

I am going to internet face punch that guy. This EV is not for you, but it can be for lots of other people.






MilesTeg

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2020, 11:09:58 AM »
TIL apparently I need to buy a truck.  I have been known to occasionally load our Corolla up with five large adults and some stuff in the trunk to drive around . . . which turns out to be unsafe and insane behavior.  You mustachians think an F350 would be able to handle this abuse, or do I need to go bigger?

This is a needlessly petulant reply. No on here is arguing that you need an F-350 to perform daily driving tasks. The only argument being made is to use the right tool for the job at hand. Overloading a corolla by 50-100% is the exact opposite of that just like using an F-350 to commute to a desk job is the exact opposite of that.

MilesTeg

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2020, 11:21:27 AM »
I don't think either of us are going convince the other, and that is fine. IMO Cars are designed to hold 5 people they have 5 seats and 5 belts. If they could not do this there would be an epidemic of car crashes due to people simply filling the seats that they bought the car with.

Cars with 5 seating positions are indeed designed to carry 5 people, as long as those 5 people and all other cargo don't exceed the weight capacity of the vehicle. This is simple, undeniable fact not opinion.

And, unless you are talking about people who are more than a couple standard deviations from the norm, it works out pretty well. 5 people at an average of 150lbs + a couple hundred pounds of cargo is something that is within most car's capacity. A more typical 2 adults (130 + 170lbs) plus 2 kids (75 lbs each) is well within their capacity.

I mean, the notion you are going to fit 5 obese and/or extremely tall people in a small car is a joke to begin with.

Syonyk

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2020, 11:29:17 AM »
IMO Cars are designed to hold 5 people they have 5 seats and 5 belts.

"In your opinion."  Cute.  And your qualifications to decide that the people who designed and built the car don't know what they're talking about... are... an ability to count seats?  Well, no point in automotive engineers, then!

In the (rather well informed) "opinion" of those who built your car, the designed gross vehicle weight is available on the door pillar, probably in your manual, etc, and it's your responsibility to load your vehicle within the bounds of that.

There are plenty of ways to load a car within the bounds provided, including with full sized people (I'll point to quite a few teenage boys I know as "adult sized" and "under 150 lbs").

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However if i see one more guy post: "Well I pull a 50k# 5th wheel over the Rockies in winter for 900 miles with out ever stopping to pee, so this will never work"

You'll need an awful lot more than a pickup to tow a 50k lb trailer.  That's up near what a fully loaded semi trailer runs.  I'm not aware of any consumer pickup rated past about 30k, and even then you're into commercial requirements in a lot of states.

Syonyk

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2020, 11:32:43 AM »
And I'd just like to point out that if any of the "Who cares what the manufacturer's numbers say, I should be able to do what I want!" lean left, and are known to grumble about how conservatives "refuse to look at the data" on some topic or another, you're doing exactly the same thing in this thread.  Refusing to look at hard data about your vehicle's load limits, and asserting that you know better.

I'm out.  This thread has gotten stupid.  Read your door pillar.  It's literally there in black and white, from the people who built the vehicle.

scottish

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2020, 03:47:07 PM »
Huh, I thought everyone would be mocking the notion of a 1000 hp electric SUV.    The original hummer was pretty ridiculous and this one sounds even more so.    Can you even get a mount for a fifth wheel for a hummer?


FINate

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2020, 04:38:17 PM »
Huh, I thought everyone would be mocking the notion of a 1000 hp electric SUV.    The original hummer was pretty ridiculous and this one sounds even more so.    Can you even get a mount for a fifth wheel for a hummer?

No dumber than the Cybertruck, which a lot of people around here are excited about. Doesn't look like the Cybertruck can accommodate a 5th-wheel/goose-neck due to the body design, though still waiting to hear official word on this. If the Hummer pickup is anywhere near a normal shape (e.g. not a pyramid) then it should be compatible with a 5th-wheel. We can only wait until GM releases more specs.

It's a  bit ridiculous that many people proclaimed Elon the savior of the planet when Cybertruck was announced, but now that GM has entered the market with the EV Hummer electric trucks/SUVs are now deemed selfish.

But all these EV trucks are stupidly expensive, and they will all share the same issues with range while towing and recharge times.

alienbogey

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2020, 09:32:46 PM »
If anyone wants to know the actual weight of their vehicle rather than guessing or even reading the data sticker, then take it to a local scale with a full tank of gas and the stuff you normally carry in the vehicle.  Subtract that from the gross vehicle weight rating and there's your payload.

Differences between factory empty weight and what it actually weighs due to stuff always carried, mods, etc can range from negligible to significant.  My F-350 weighs about 340 pounds more than the factory "empty" weight due to upgrades for towing, camper tie downs, tools, etc.

In my experience pulling into a local business that has a scale and asking politely tobriefly use it will be answered with a yes and no charge.  Takes 3-4 minutes.  Write it down in your owner's manual.

It's a very good idea to do the same for trailers and what they'll be carrying.  I've weighed horse trailers, horses, boat trailers, boats, utility trailers, tractors, etc, in order to keep the load under control for the trailer rating, the tow vehicle rating, and the combined vehicle rating.

Yes, people actually do this in order to operate safely.  Others just count the number of seats and seatbelts and figure they're good to go regardless (if they even think about it at all).

Which type would you rather be in front of on a long 8 degree downslope curving road on a 90 degree windy day at 75mph? Or, better yet, going uphill and seeing them coming the other way on a two lane road?

I'm guessing the e-Hummer and the Cybertruck will have pretty good tow ratings, but the size of the battery pack may hurt the carrying payload.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 09:36:33 PM by alienbogey »

Lucky13

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2020, 09:40:03 PM »

My Jeep (new 4dr Wrangler) is awesome. Great in the winter with 4WD, high ground clearance and rugged tires (stock not modified). Great in the summer with top and doors off. Can fit my whole family unlike the sports car. Great as a utility vehicle for hauling whatever I need.  Plenty of suspension travel for our terrible roads. And yeah, great for off-road which I do on occasion though not as much as I’d like. Only thing it doesn’t do well is highway driving and gas mileage, but I don’t drive that much so I don’t care. Oh and the resale is stellar.
Please stop you are making me want to buy one.

Actually I also want to buy this (Hyundai Kona Iron Man Edition)
https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/2019-hyundai-kona-iron-man-edition-ar184319.html

Luckily my frugality cancels out my desire for more vehicles (so far)

RWD

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2020, 07:05:08 AM »
If I use a 2010 Corolla, the curb weight is 2767lb, the gross weight is 3836lb, for a total payload of around 1070 lbs.  Subtract a tank of gas, you're in the 950-1000lb payload range, which is actually on the high end for cars.  I don't know what year and trim you've got, but you can do the math yourself.

I think curb weight includes at least some gas in the tank? Whatever "nominal tank capacity" means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight

I looked up the numbers for our 2016 Golf R (small hatchback) and calculated a similar payload. It's enough to transport 5 average American men (a little uncomfortably) with no additional cargo. Or two men and two women plus 200-250 pounds of cargo. Or a couple with three kids and 300-400 pounds of cargo. That seems very reasonable for a small car to me. Looking at a few numbers it appears you need something like a Toyota Highlander to be within the payload capacity for 5 guys and ~300 pounds of cargo.

I agree @alienbogey that weighing your own car is the best way to be sure if you think you'll be close to the limits.

MilesTeg

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2020, 12:56:23 PM »
Huh, I thought everyone would be mocking the notion of a 1000 hp electric SUV.    The original hummer was pretty ridiculous and this one sounds even more so.    Can you even get a mount for a fifth wheel for a hummer?

I would never own one, but I think it's a great thing. Maybe GM can produce an EV truck that won't be intentionally made far less useful because of dumb styling choices, unlike Tesla. My understanding is this thing will be offered in pretty much a standard short bed truck design - probably with silly styling but unless GM deviates far from the gas hummer it won't have functionality cripplingly stupid styling.

Which is better:

* A weekend warrior driving a 16-19mpg F-150 to work all week because he takes his camper/boat/etc. out a few weeks a year.
* A weekend warrior driving a far more efficient EV for the same usage pattern?

In any case, what GM is doing here is following Tesla's lead: building a high margin vehicle to absorb some of the R&D costs for drive train development. The more car makers out there pushing EV R&D the better off everyone will be, regardless of your vehicle needs or desires.

scottish

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2020, 03:43:27 PM »

My Jeep (new 4dr Wrangler) is awesome. Great in the winter with 4WD, high ground clearance and rugged tires (stock not modified). Great in the summer with top and doors off. Can fit my whole family unlike the sports car. Great as a utility vehicle for hauling whatever I need.  Plenty of suspension travel for our terrible roads. And yeah, great for off-road which I do on occasion though not as much as I’d like. Only thing it doesn’t do well is highway driving and gas mileage, but I don’t drive that much so I don’t care. Oh and the resale is stellar.
Please stop you are making me want to buy one.

Actually I also want to buy this (Hyundai Kona Iron Man Edition)
https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/2019-hyundai-kona-iron-man-edition-ar184319.html

Luckily my frugality cancels out my desire for more vehicles (so far)

Lol, I expected to find a triathlon oriented car, not a Stark Industries branded Hyundai!

dogboyslim

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2020, 04:00:48 PM »
RE Jeeps.
1.  You actually drive it offroad
...
10. You want a convertible that can carry 5.

My Jeep (new 4dr Wrangler) is awesome. Great in the winter with 4WD, high ground clearance and rugged tires (stock not modified). Great in the summer with top and doors off. Can fit my whole family unlike the sports car. Great as a utility vehicle for hauling whatever I need.  Plenty of suspension travel for our terrible roads. And yeah, great for off-road which I do on occasion though not as much as I’d like. Only thing it doesn’t do well is highway driving and gas mileage, but I don’t drive that much so I don’t care. Oh and the resale is stellar.

Emphasis mine.  So you like that its a convertible that fits your family and you drive it off road.  Highway driving is what most people do most of the time, hence my statements.  I also love my wrangler 4 door, but I go off-road with it often with my son, and we have the top/doors off most of the summer.  I had to take it on a 1600 mile road trip once though...that wasn't fun.

ChpBstrd

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2020, 12:13:53 PM »
Just for comparison, a Kenworth tractor (i.e. the front part of a tractor trailer) makes about 500 Hp.   (I know, that's a big diesel with lots of torque.   Electric engines have lots of torque too.)

The 1,000 hp number is a big waving flag with “vaporware” written on it. The point of this outrageous soon-to-be-forgotten claim is not to sell trucks, but to sell bonds. Similarly, Tesla’s weird design is not meant to be an optimal product (aerodynamics much?), it’s meant to justify their latest $2B share offering.

I recall a Doonsbury comic from circa 1999 where an internet company’s only product was its own stock. We’re back to that point.

ChpBstrd

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Re: The GMC hummer is coming back.
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2020, 01:01:47 PM »
If I use a 2010 Corolla, the curb weight is 2767lb, the gross weight is 3836lb, for a total payload of around 1070 lbs.  Subtract a tank of gas, you're in the 950-1000lb payload range, which is actually on the high end for cars.  I don't know what year and trim you've got, but you can do the math yourself.

I think curb weight includes at least some gas in the tank? Whatever "nominal tank capacity" means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight

I looked up the numbers for our 2016 Golf R (small hatchback) and calculated a similar payload. It's enough to transport 5 average American men (a little uncomfortably) with no additional cargo. Or two men and two women plus 200-250 pounds of cargo. Or a couple with three kids and 300-400 pounds of cargo. That seems very reasonable for a small car to me. Looking at a few numbers it appears you need something like a Toyota Highlander to be within the payload capacity for 5 guys and ~300 pounds of cargo.

I agree @alienbogey that weighing your own car is the best way to be sure if you think you'll be close to the limits.

I’m not understanding this flame war. As noted above, a 2010 Corolla has 5 adult sized seats and about 1,000lbs capacity. If the average weight of your 5 people is <200lbs, you’re within specs. Or if you have 2 x 200lb adults, you can carry about 600 additional pounds of beer kegs, stolen uranium, pigs, or groceries. Just about any material one could reasonably fit into the car other than metal, concrete, or rocks will not exceed the rating.

I get the sense the towing arguments that erupt here are something like “No you can’t pull a horse trailer through the Rocky Mountains with a Toyota Yaris!” versus “Yes I can use my Civic to pull a 200lb 4x8 trailer with 100lbs of plywood or a mower when me + trailer + load is maybe 500lbs total and the car is rated for 1000lbs and therefore a truck is never necessary [for me]!”

Both are reasonable, narrow, and completely different points.