Author Topic: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"  (Read 36403 times)

neo von retorch

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The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« on: February 02, 2024, 01:56:22 PM »
Why you should never retire (see also: archive.today copy)
Pleasure cruises, golf and tracing the family tree are not that fulfilling

There's almost a nugget of goodness...

Quote
Self-worth and personal growth can derive from many places, including non-profit work or mentoring others on how to set up a business.

But they immediately destroy it with...

Quote
But can anything truly replace the framework and buzz of being part of the action? You can have a packed diary devoid of deadlines, meetings and spreadsheets and flourish as a consumer of theatre matinees, art exhibitions and badminton lessons. Hobbies are all well and good for many. But for the extremely driven, they can feel pointless and even slightly embarrassing.

aloevera1

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2024, 01:58:49 PM »
I feel so intrigued what kind of hobbies make the author feel embarrassed?

So, so curious.

GuitarStv

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2024, 02:01:26 PM »
How do you define "extremely driven".

Does forcing myself to get up at dawn, cram down some food and cycle 100 miles on a regular basis count?  Does staying up 36 hrs straight to finish tweaking and perfecting the recording of a new song idea count?  These are my hobbies, but I feel much more driven when working on them than most of the time I'm doing the work I get paid for.  That stuff often feels pointless and like a slightly embarrassing waste of my time.  But each to his own.  :P

Chris Pascale

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2024, 03:47:43 PM »
Gotta be in on the action! And if anyone knows this best, it's a weekly periodical.

I can certainly agree that what they see as their readers' interests (golf, cruises and personal genealogy) are not what I would find fun, but some people have productive interests, and, frankly, one person's retirement is another's gain. I was stuck in a pretty big rut, it seemed, until the glut of more experienced workers started hitting the links while booking Carnival cruises. Therefore, God bless those beautiful endeavors!

ETA: I like that the article opens with a scene from the Sopranos, and explains what the Sopranos is. For one thing, it's being mentioned because of its resurgence, hence the writer having the handy reference. Secondly, Tony Soprano was an obese murderer who cheated on his wife all the time. I'd like another source on this.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2024, 04:01:24 PM by Chris Pascale »

Chris Pascale

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2024, 03:57:04 PM »
Does forcing myself to get up at dawn, cram down some food and cycle 100 miles on a regular basis count?  Does staying up 36 hrs straight to finish tweaking and perfecting the recording of a new song idea count?

Nope, you gotta go in and do weekly and monthly reports. If you're REALLY in on the action, you'll be part of an admin audit or office inspection.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2024, 04:15:21 PM »
Does forcing myself to get up at dawn, cram down some food and cycle 100 miles on a regular basis count?  Does staying up 36 hrs straight to finish tweaking and perfecting the recording of a new song idea count?

Nope, you gotta go in and do weekly and monthly reports. If you're REALLY in on the action, you'll be part of an admin audit or office inspection.

And don't forget the new cover pages on the TPS reports. And if you could come in on Saturday, that would be great.

AMandM

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2024, 06:59:12 PM »
Gotta love the irony of the columnist's pen name being Bartleby.

GilesMM

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2024, 08:00:18 PM »
I think if you follow your passion and do something you really truly love, it makes no sense to retire from it.  If you are stuck in a dead-end job as a wage slave, on the other hand, bail out as soon as you are able.

ScreamingHeadGuy

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2024, 10:33:19 PM »
If the article stuck with a “do what you love, even if it pays you” message I’d have been okay.  But to declare that “being in the action (of a corporate setting)” is what gives life meaning?  I just have to say “nuts” to that lady.

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2024, 04:39:43 AM »
If the article stuck with a “do what you love, even if it pays you” message I’d have been okay.  But to declare that “being in the action (of a corporate setting)” is what gives life meaning?  I just have to say “nuts” to that lady.

Yeah...how brutally sad is it that this person doesn't understand how to feel engaged outside of an office job??

Their version of retirement is so limited and tragic too.

It's depressing that people are being conditioned to think that this is the binary of their lives "work for megacorp" vs "do nothing of any degree of meaning."

It just shows how profoundly impoverished this person's life has been in terms of experiences that actually matter.

GilesMM

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2024, 05:33:32 AM »
If the article stuck with a “do what you love, even if it pays you” message I’d have been okay.  But to declare that “being in the action (of a corporate setting)” is what gives life meaning?  I just have to say “nuts” to that lady.


The article didn't exactly say that. It said that hobbies may not replace the sense of satisfaction and usefulness from a great job.  They touch on it, but for those driven types a new type of non-profit job usually does the trick.  If you need to make yourself useful, find a volunteer role that suits you.  Serve on a board.  Be church congregation or HOA president.  There are plenty of options.


I don't have issues feeling useful in retirement, I feel fully engaged and busy all the time. I turned down an offer to sit on a local science board.  However, I returned to work as a consultant a few months ago out of interest in a particular project and for the great travel opportunities.  It is fun, I never have to suffer any nonsense like I did in a corporate job, and the team on the ground just loves my advice which fully leverages my 25 years of experience.  I just show up and sit in meetings and explain how things work and people love it.  I can't believe they were unable to find anyone with the same expertise closer than 11 time zones away.  I travel and work as much as I like. They would take me full time but I go 2-3 weeks at a time, then home.  For some reason, my spouse is particularly happy that all the dumb stuff in my head is being put to productive use.  And the fees I'm paid can be spent like absolute mad money if desired, which goes against our frugal nature but somehow seems ok.

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2024, 06:00:26 AM »
If the article stuck with a “do what you love, even if it pays you” message I’d have been okay.  But to declare that “being in the action (of a corporate setting)” is what gives life meaning?  I just have to say “nuts” to that lady.


The article didn't exactly say that. It said that hobbies may not replace the sense of satisfaction and usefulness from a great job.  They touch on it, but for those driven types a new type of non-profit job usually does the trick.  If you need to make yourself useful, find a volunteer role that suits you.  Serve on a board.  Be church congregation or HOA president.  There are plenty of options.

This is exactly it. There is just SO MUCH to do out there, I can't imagine feeling like retirement is limited to just leisure activities.

I've also gone back to work, but not because I was bored. I've picked up meaningful, extremely satisfying, and very lucrative, very part time work as part of my collection of cool shit to do.

I'm doing a paid version of cool shit because the cool shit I like to do is highly valuable and I might as well get paid for some of it. It's more like "hey, why not make some money?" rather than "I need to do paid work to have meaning."

I chose to train to be able to do the work I'm doing specifically because it's work I would happily do paid or unpaid depending on the circumstances. Right now, I'm actually doing it unpaid as an internship, but people are being charged for my services. Because I'm not providing the service *for free* it doesn't feel any different for me than paid work because someone is still paying for the service.

In a few months money will come into my account, which is cool, but doesn't change the nature of the work at all. But I see the money part as a switch that can be toggled on or off, it doesn't at all define the meaning of the work for me.

But there's TONS of unpaid cool shit that people can do that provides plenty of meaning. Once someone can afford to retire, it's truly deranged to tie meaning to whether a task is monetized or not, beyond what the money itself means for the person's financial security.

That's just dumb.


Sandi_k

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2024, 11:02:44 AM »
I feel sorry for the author. If she actually believes it, that's terrible. If she was paid to write it for that particular slant - that's even worse.

Burnout is real; thinking that your only value is in a paid or corporate worklife is insane.

Sanitary Stache

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2024, 12:36:39 PM »
I just picked up “The Good-Enough Life”. And this article seems like a desperate attempt to prop up the idea that striving for greatness is the only path to fulfillment.

Exceptional people never stop working, don’t you, reader,  strive to be exceptional? Isn’t that why you read my high brow London rag?

ETA: I do enjoy reading The Economist.

MrGreen

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2024, 02:21:33 PM »
Quote
Hobbies are all well and good for many. But for the extremely driven, they can feel pointless and even slightly embarrassing.
I guess it depends on your perspective. The opportunity cost of being the most successful or having the most money or things "feels pointless and even slightly embarrassing" to me.

"Sorry we couldn't hang out, Son, but God DAMN did Daddy own them in the Board Room today!"

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2024, 02:33:01 PM »
I just picked up “The Good-Enough Life”. And this article seems like a desperate attempt to prop up the idea that striving for greatness is the only path to fulfillment.

Exceptional people never stop working, don’t you, reader,  strive to be exceptional? Isn’t that why you read my high brow London rag?

ETA: I do enjoy reading The Economist.

Same, I have a copy beside me at this moment, which is why this hot trash take is so disappointing

BlueHouse

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2024, 05:34:33 PM »
I've never enjoyed the Bartleby column because I always thought it was parody and I just never thought it was funny.  But I'm starting to think maybe it is pretty funny and the wit just escaped me.  Because Bartleby is the perfect character to never want to retire.   He slept, ate, and worked in the same spot in the name of efficiency. 

I'm pretty sure the column is parody. 

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2024, 06:50:07 PM »
I've never enjoyed the Bartleby column because I always thought it was parody and I just never thought it was funny.  But I'm starting to think maybe it is pretty funny and the wit just escaped me.  Because Bartleby is the perfect character to never want to retire.   He slept, ate, and worked in the same spot in the name of efficiency. 

I'm pretty sure the column is parody.

That would be much smarter and more entertaining. I only skimmed it quickly, so totally missed that.

Cellista

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2024, 07:15:06 PM »
"Hobbies are all well and good for many. But for the extremely driven, they can feel pointless and even slightly embarrassing."

My hobby, music, is not embarrassing at all! Playing and performing great music is the most joyous and yes, meaningful part of my life.

Work is what embarrasses me. Commuting an hour each way to do tedious tasks better meant for an intern is not good for my self-esteem.  Fortunately retirement is in sight.

YYK

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2024, 12:41:49 PM »
It's satire, folks.


Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2024, 06:48:49 PM »
It's satire, folks.

How fucking sad is it that it's actually hard to tell??

With the absolute garbage that's written about the FIRE movement, we can't even tell when someone is making a joke.

I mean, this article was much less brutal than some of the shit that Financial Samurai writes these days.


neo von retorch

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2024, 06:49:54 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

Quote
Poe's law is an adage of Internet culture which says that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, any parodic or sarcastic expression of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of those views.

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2024, 06:52:03 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

Quote
Poe's law is an adage of Internet culture which says that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, any parodic or sarcastic expression of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of those views.

The worst part is that this satire is actually less awful than a lot of what's written in earnest criticizing the values of most people here.

LennStar

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2024, 07:28:41 AM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

Quote
Poe's law is an adage of Internet culture which says that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, any parodic or sarcastic expression of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of those views.

The worst part is that this satire is actually less awful than a lot of what's written in earnest criticizing the values of most people here.
Not to mention the shit that neolib politicians say when it comes to social security, exports and similar things.
Just today a barrage of stupid things from our (Germans) finance minister, probably his twitter guy is back from Easter holidays.

My todays favorite:
Quote
We need an open dialog between business and politics on how we can improve the framework conditions in our country.
I am all for it! Because normally it's a closed dialog where "the economy" (= big companies) tell politicians what they want for Christmas.

----

But from the disgression, there is really way too much that is said about personal finance where you would think it's satire, but it is not. Like that it is impossible to survive in New York on just half a million per year. (I think that was back after the 2008 bank crisis where the bankers lamented that people wanted them to not get any bonuses just because the banks were saved by tax payers.)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 07:33:34 AM by LennStar »

joer1212

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2024, 10:32:18 AM »
Sometimes I wonder who pays these people to say these things.

joer1212

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2024, 10:49:57 AM »
I think if you follow your passion and do something you really truly love, it makes no sense to retire from it. If you are stuck in a dead-end job as a wage slave, on the other hand, bail out as soon as you are able.
I never understood this notion of a "dead-end" job being the reason why I would want to retire. The fact is, I don't enjoy having a job at all, regardless of whether it's "dead-end" or not. I would much prefer to be retired, and have a hobby that I'm passionate about, which I can do whenever I feel like it, instead of being forced to work on a regular schedule.

nereo

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2024, 11:53:46 AM »
I think if you follow your passion and do something you really truly love, it makes no sense to retire from it. If you are stuck in a dead-end job as a wage slave, on the other hand, bail out as soon as you are able.
I never understood this notion of a "dead-end" job being the reason why I would want to retire. The fact is, I don't enjoy having a job at all, regardless of whether it's "dead-end" or not. I would much prefer to be retired, and have a hobby that I'm passionate about, which I can do whenever I feel like it, instead of being forced to work on a regular schedule.

Perhaps what you’re missing is that not all jobs have a rigorous (“forced”) schedule, nor does it mean you cannot be passionate about what you do. For example, independent contractors work when they want and get paid only when they want. There’s also a great number of mission-driven jobs (both non-profit as well
As some for-profit) which are more impactful than most hobbies, particularly when you can get the collective forces of revenue and labor together.

OTOH, “dead-end” jobs are frequently those with fixed hours, not mission driven, little chance of meaningful advancement and poor work/life balance.

In other words, it’s a false dichotomy to suggest it’s either “work on a forced schedule” or “be retired”. It’s a very broad spectrum, with those pints falling somewhere along the line (and not even at the polar ends).

joer1212

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2024, 06:14:14 PM »
I think if you follow your passion and do something you really truly love, it makes no sense to retire from it. If you are stuck in a dead-end job as a wage slave, on the other hand, bail out as soon as you are able.
I never understood this notion of a "dead-end" job being the reason why I would want to retire. The fact is, I don't enjoy having a job at all, regardless of whether it's "dead-end" or not. I would much prefer to be retired, and have a hobby that I'm passionate about, which I can do whenever I feel like it, instead of being forced to work on a regular schedule.

Perhaps what you’re missing is that not all jobs have a rigorous (“forced”) schedule, nor does it mean you cannot be passionate about what you do. For example, independent contractors work when they want and get paid only when they want. There’s also a great number of mission-driven jobs (both non-profit as well
As some for-profit) which are more impactful than most hobbies, particularly when you can get the collective forces of revenue and labor together.

OTOH, “dead-end” jobs are frequently those with fixed hours, not mission driven, little chance of meaningful advancement and poor work/life balance.

In other words, it’s a false dichotomy to suggest it’s either “work on a forced schedule” or “be retired”. It’s a very broad spectrum, with those pints falling somewhere along the line (and not even at the polar ends).
The vast majority of jobs don't fit that description. Even then, I don't care for any 'job' at all, mission-driven or otherwise. Maybe I'm the exception.

Ladychips

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2024, 10:02:14 PM »
I think if you follow your passion and do something you really truly love, it makes no sense to retire from it. If you are stuck in a dead-end job as a wage slave, on the other hand, bail out as soon as you are able.
I never understood this notion of a "dead-end" job being the reason why I would want to retire. The fact is, I don't enjoy having a job at all, regardless of whether it's "dead-end" or not. I would much prefer to be retired, and have a hobby that I'm passionate about, which I can do whenever I feel like it, instead of being forced to work on a regular schedule.

Perhaps what you’re missing is that not all jobs have a rigorous (“forced”) schedule, nor does it mean you cannot be passionate about what you do. For example, independent contractors work when they want and get paid only when they want. There’s also a great number of mission-driven jobs (both non-profit as well
As some for-profit) which are more impactful than most hobbies, particularly when you can get the collective forces of revenue and labor together.

OTOH, “dead-end” jobs are frequently those with fixed hours, not mission driven, little chance of meaningful advancement and poor work/life balance.

In other words, it’s a false dichotomy to suggest it’s either “work on a forced schedule” or “be retired”. It’s a very broad spectrum, with those pints falling somewhere along the line (and not even at the polar ends).
The vast majority of jobs don't fit that description. Even then, I don't care for any 'job' at all, misson-driven or otherwise. Maybe I'm the exception.

Not just you @joer1212. I don't want anyone but me dictating how I spend any of my time.

spartana

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2024, 12:31:11 AM »
I think if you follow your passion and do something you really truly love, it makes no sense to retire from it. If you are stuck in a dead-end job as a wage slave, on the other hand, bail out as soon as you are able.
I never understood this notion of a "dead-end" job being the reason why I would want to retire. The fact is, I don't enjoy having a job at all, regardless of whether it's "dead-end" or not. I would much prefer to be retired, and have a hobby that I'm passionate about, which I can do whenever I feel like it, instead of being forced to work on a regular schedule.

Perhaps what you’re missing is that not all jobs have a rigorous (“forced”) schedule, nor does it mean you cannot be passionate about what you do. For example, independent contractors work when they want and get paid only when they want. There’s also a great number of mission-driven jobs (both non-profit as well
As some for-profit) which are more impactful than most hobbies, particularly when you can get the collective forces of revenue and labor together.

OTOH, “dead-end” jobs are frequently those with fixed hours, not mission driven, little chance of meaningful advancement and poor work/life balance.

In other words, it’s a false dichotomy to suggest it’s either “work on a forced schedule” or “be retired”. It’s a very broad spectrum, with those pints falling somewhere along the line (and not even at the polar ends).
The vast majority of jobs don't fit that description. Even then, I don't care for any 'job' at all, misson-driven or otherwise. Maybe I'm the exception.

Not just you @joer1212. I don't want anyone but me dictating how I spend any of my time.
Count me in too! I liked my job but the time constraints and set schedule made other aspects of my life that I like hard to do. You know, like the sleeping in and napping and...um...sleeping in... Seriously though even the greatest most loved job, even done part time,  can often mean you are giving up on other things in life that are important simply due to limited time.

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2024, 07:37:28 AM »
I just started working again, but I chose to do so because I was gravitating towards a lot of activities that I could be compensated well for.

With my current job, I have near-total autonomy over my schedule, and will have moreso moving forward.

There is a trade off committing to a schedule, but it's no different than committing to yoga class or a regular get together with friends. Also, not all compensated activities are scheduled, and not all scheduled work is inflexible.

All of our lives are made up of a complex combination of scheduled and unscheduled activities. What makes up the best combination of those activities is just not as simple as "well the unpaid ones are better." At least, not for everyone.


joer1212

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2024, 07:46:30 AM »
Not just you @joer1212. I don't want anyone but me dictating how I spend any of my time.

Count me in too! I liked my job but the time constraints and set schedule made other aspects of my life that I like hard to do. You know, like the sleeping in and napping and...um...sleeping in... Seriously though even the greatest most loved job, even done part time,  can often mean you are giving up on other things in life that are important simply due to limited time.

I just started working again, but I chose to do so because I was gravitating towards a lot of activities that I could be compensated well for.

With my current job, I have near-total autonomy over my schedule, and will have moreso moving forward.

There is a trade off committing to a schedule, but it's no different than committing to yoga class or a regular get together with friends. Also, not all compensated activities are scheduled, and not all scheduled work is inflexible.

All of our lives are made up of a complex combination of scheduled and unscheduled activities. What makes up the best combination of those activities is just not as simple as "well the unpaid ones are better." At least, not for everyone.
To be as honest with myself as possible, I always ask one question: if I was worth 100 million USD, would I still keep this job? The answer is invariably a resounding "no".
« Last Edit: June 24, 2024, 07:50:12 AM by joer1212 »

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2024, 07:56:12 AM »
Not just you @joer1212. I don't want anyone but me dictating how I spend any of my time.

Count me in too! I liked my job but the time constraints and set schedule made other aspects of my life that I like hard to do. You know, like the sleeping in and napping and...um...sleeping in... Seriously though even the greatest most loved job, even done part time,  can often mean you are giving up on other things in life that are important simply due to limited time.

I just started working again, but I chose to do so because I was gravitating towards a lot of activities that I could be compensated well for.

With my current job, I have near-total autonomy over my schedule, and will have moreso moving forward.

There is a trade off committing to a schedule, but it's no different than committing to yoga class or a regular get together with friends. Also, not all compensated activities are scheduled, and not all scheduled work is inflexible.

All of our lives are made up of a complex combination of scheduled and unscheduled activities. What makes up the best combination of those activities is just not as simple as "well the unpaid ones are better." At least, not for everyone.
To be as honest with myself as possible, I always ask one question: if I was worth 100 million USD, would I still keep this job? The answer is invariably a resounding "no".

Which means that for you, specifically, there are no compensated activities that contribute to your optimal life.

But I've found that folks who come to the conclusion that there is no trade off for compensated activities that's worth it for them often have a hard time imagining it being optimal for others.

I've been criticized multiple times on this forum by former members who insisted that I couldn't possibly benefit more from working than not working, and that if I only experienced the real freedom of retirement, I would know better.

Then I spent a few years retired and gravitated back to work. And I LOVED being retired. I wasn't one of those folks who struggled because I didn't retire "to" something. I had an awesome few years evolving and embracing being retired. It was great.

I just enjoy being back at work more.

But that's me. Just my specific, personal optimal balance of scheduled and unscheduled, paid and unpaid activities. And that could and will probably change over time.

spartana

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2024, 09:03:39 AM »
^^^ I think it's all very specific to the individual. The things I personally enjoy doing for "work" (paid employment) and would do in retirement aren't things I could do in a way that I could structure the other non-paid things in my life around. It's a trade off as you said and, for me, it's less about disliking paid employment and more about time-flexibility. Even occasional contracting jobs or WFH have time commitments.

frugalecon

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2024, 09:42:08 AM »
Comparing ones work situation to that enjoyed by Giorgio Armani seems ridiculous. I have no doubt that Giorgio Armani has been able to distill what he does during the day down to all of the parts that he likes best. Very few (and certainly not I) are able to accomplish that.

I look forward to the opportunity to see if retirement (redirection?) makes me miserable. In 36 weeks.

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2024, 10:03:16 AM »
^^^ I think it's all very specific to the individual. The things I personally enjoy doing for "work" (paid employment) and would do in retirement aren't things I could do in a way that I could structure the other non-paid things in my life around. It's a trade off as you said and, for me, it's less about disliking paid employment and more about time-flexibility. Even occasional contracting jobs or WFH have time commitments.

That's my entire point though.

Each person has an individual balance of activities that make up their optimal lifestyle.

But preferring unstructured time has zero relevance to whether or not getting paid to do things is optimal. There are PLENTY of paid activities that are entirely unscheduled. My neighbour is a woodworker who builds artisanal crafts for fun and his buddy who has a stall at the farmer's market sells them and takes a cut.

He makes money filling his day with an activity he loves.

You may not have any unscheduled activities that generate profit, and that makes sense, a lot of people don't. But what I'm pushing back on is the statement that no matter how much someone loves an activity, that the fact that they can make money off of it somehow makes it worse than an activity that makes no money.

That just doesn't gel with what I understand about living ones best life.

Just because a lot of avenues for making money require a schedule doesn't mean they all do. And there's nothing inherently bad with an activity requiring time either. We ALL fill our days with activities, everything we do requires time. Some folks prefer more structure to their activities, some prefer less structure.

I personally prefer less structure than most. But some activities with schedules are so worthwhile that I'll roll with a small amount of time structure. I go see my musician friend perform every single Friday of the summer. Is it always my preferred time to do so? No. But I always go because all of my friends go and a lot of community members turn out. The community connection is worth the scheduling.

That's no different than the scheduling for my job to be worth it.

At a certain point though, if I work too much, it detracts from my flexible time to do other things and my threshold for work going from being net beneficial to net detrimental is *extremely* delicate, hence why I need near total autonomy over how and when I work.

But the job being paid and the music show being unpaid is irrelevant. These are both things I want to do, both things that make my overall life better.

If you had something you loved to do and it made you money, you wouldn't refuse to do it just because it was profitable, that would be insane. If you don't have something like that, then yeah, it makes sense that you don't choose any profitable activities. But that's not a product of you preferring a flexible schedule, that's a product of you not having a flexible activity that makes money in your particular repertoire of activities that you fill your time with.

joer1212

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2024, 12:40:47 PM »
Which means that for you, specifically, there are no compensated activities that contribute to your optimal life.
I don't have a problem with "compensated activities"; I just don't want those activities to be on a schedule.

I'm a professional artist (realist oil painter). I sometimes sell my work. This qualifies as a "compensated activity". Except that I don't sell paintings on a regular basis-- I don't want the pressure of having to produce pieces for a commercial art gallery in order to constantly satisfy client demands. I sell whenever I feel like selling (or not at all). Once I'm tethered to a schedule, painting ceases to be enjoyable and becomes a job. No, thanks.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2024, 12:42:52 PM by joer1212 »

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2024, 01:01:35 PM »
Which means that for you, specifically, there are no compensated activities that contribute to your optimal life.
I don't have a problem with "compensated activities"; I just don't want those activities to be on a schedule.

I'm a professional artist (realist oil painter). I sometimes sell my work. This qualifies as a "compensated activity". Except that I don't sell paintings on a regular basis-- I don't want the pressure of having to produce pieces for a commercial art gallery in order to constantly satisfy client demands. I sell whenever I feel like selling (or not at all). Once I'm tethered to a schedule, painting ceases to be enjoyable and becomes a job. No, thanks.

I get that and I think I've made it clear that obviously some folks thrive more with unstructured activities.

The *only* thing I'm arguing against is the implication above that paid work= sacrifice of time.

I'm specifically pushing back against this concept: "Seriously though even the greatest most loved job, even done part time,  can often mean you are giving up on other things in life that are important simply due to limited time"

This makes zero sense to me because doing ANY activity too much will come at the expense of others, that's not a property of working, that's a property of working too much to maintain an optimal life balance.

Not all paid work is scheduled, so the fact that you don't like schedules says very little about your lack of interest in working for money. Let's look at it this way, say you REALLY loved painting and never ever picked up a brush unless you truly wanted to, but you painted a lot and your paintings were constantly selling out.

You would be considered a professional artist who is "working" as a painter. Whether you needed the money or not, this is a reasonable interpretation of the paid activity as a "job."

The line between a "job" and a "paid hobby" is extremely unclear, and frankly, I find that most people arbitrarily categorize activities as "work" primarily when it's crap they don't want to do.

Which is...interesting.

GuitarStv

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2024, 01:27:06 PM »
The line between a "job" and a "paid hobby" is extremely unclear, and frankly, I find that most people arbitrarily categorize activities as "work" primarily when it's crap they don't want to do.

Which is...interesting.

It's work when they have to pay you to do it.  :P

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2024, 06:00:51 PM »
I retired 12 or so years ago and have loved it immensely. The comment about "being part of the action" is funny. So a couple of days after I retired I took a bicycle ride down to the beach, as I wanted to watch the sunrise over a bay where I knew there were manatees. I made some coffee to bring with me. When I was done and heading home mid-morning I rode past my office (actually under the parking garage attached to the office - I mean close!) and realized that on the way out to the beach it never dawned on me that was my office. I was so "off work" and fully retired I never wondered how my former coworkers were, etc. Didn't even notice the building!

I can't imagine going back in there day after day and year after year - and that was a high paying job, corner office overlooking the water, and I was well respected. On occasion I ride underneath/past on the bicycle, scooter, or motorcycle and a few minutes later get a text from a buddy stilled held inside (he has a stand up setup looking out the window).

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2024, 06:48:26 PM »
The line between a "job" and a "paid hobby" is extremely unclear, and frankly, I find that most people arbitrarily categorize activities as "work" primarily when it's crap they don't want to do.

Which is...interesting.

It's work when they have to pay you to do it.  :P

But what if you would be willing to do it for free? What about someone who sells an occasional painting.

Again, there's this bias that "work" is only activities that people would rather not be doing. That may be common, but it's not accurate.

GuitarStv

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2024, 08:14:38 PM »
The line between a "job" and a "paid hobby" is extremely unclear, and frankly, I find that most people arbitrarily categorize activities as "work" primarily when it's crap they don't want to do.

Which is...interesting.

It's work when they have to pay you to do it.  :P

But what if you would be willing to do it for free? What about someone who sells an occasional painting.

Again, there's this bias that "work" is only activities that people would rather not be doing. That may be common, but it's not accurate.

If you would do it for free, then it's not work.  Doesn't mean that it's not something that takes up a lot of your time and care, or that you don't get a great product at the end.

Work is entirely dependent upon outlook.  If you wouldn't do something if someone isn't going to pay you for it, then it's not something you like.  So work.  And it's even dependent upon conditions of the work.  You might like painting on your own time (hobby) but hate painting on a corporate schedule with boardroom meetings that decide your topics and colours (work).

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2024, 11:30:49 PM »
Maybe it's supposed to be satire, but if it is, it's a little too subtle for me. If it's serious, it's missing the point.

I think this piece makes the mistake of conflating retirement with irrelevance. I've always felt much more relevant and motivated about doing unpaid activities of all sorts than what I get paid to do. I've never been paid to teach, to write, to play music, or many other things, but I keep returning to those activities as hobbies and leisure activities. One early retiree I know has a sideline and even gets paid a little teaching people to ride bikes but has scaled back a whole litany of related volunteer activities.

Also, if not being part of the action in a workplace is irrelevance, where does that leave the many parents that have paused or been denied a traditional workplace career in favor of more direct involvement in their children's upbringing?

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2024, 05:58:40 AM »
The line between a "job" and a "paid hobby" is extremely unclear, and frankly, I find that most people arbitrarily categorize activities as "work" primarily when it's crap they don't want to do.

Which is...interesting.

It's work when they have to pay you to do it.  :P

But what if you would be willing to do it for free? What about someone who sells an occasional painting.

Again, there's this bias that "work" is only activities that people would rather not be doing. That may be common, but it's not accurate.

If you would do it for free, then it's not work.  Doesn't mean that it's not something that takes up a lot of your time and care, or that you don't get a great product at the end.

Work is entirely dependent upon outlook.  If you wouldn't do something if someone isn't going to pay you for it, then it's not something you like.  So work.  And it's even dependent upon conditions of the work.  You might like painting on your own time (hobby) but hate painting on a corporate schedule with boardroom meetings that decide your topics and colours (work).

See, this is the attitude that I don't get, probably because I've always been self employed and had enormous autonomy.

Just because a lot of jobs are traditional, corporate employment doesn't mean you folks have a monopoly on defining what "work" is.

There's a giant world of folks out there who work who don't have structured corporate jobs. I come from a whole family of entrepreneurs, so my conceptualization of work isn't defined by large corporate governance structures.

nereo

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2024, 06:24:13 AM »
This whole thing seems like the "Internet Retirement Police" all over again.  People so self-assured that they have the one true definition of what constitutes 'work' and when it can be applied during retirement (if ever). 

Just for fun I'll throw in another:  both my parents are "traditionally retired" after working traditional jobs for the traditional amount of years.  Both started volunteering for organizations they were tangentially involved with on a very limited basis (4-12 hours/week).   Work/not-work?  Then, after volunteering each was told they had to be put onto payroll because of ::reasons:: - and so now they are getting a token amount of money every two weeks doing the thing they were doing anyway in retirement.  Work/not-work?  Does it matter that they so badly overshot their retirement and these now-paid positions offer so little in compensation that they barely make a dent in their quarterly tax bills and do not alter their retirement safety net one iota?

I'm partly responsible for bringing this up a few dozen posts ago because I bristle at the suggestion that "work" is [almost] always an inflexible 9-5 job of reporting to someone else to do something you otherwise wouldn't want to do if you weren't paid to do it.  That describes many jobs but certainly not all.  Maybe not even "most" depending on how we classify things. Then there's the additional "I don't want to have to keep to a fixed schedule or trade my unscripted free time for work".  ok... but work scheduling again is on a spectrum, from jobs where you are on a fixed, inflexible schedule (or even "on call" 24/7) to ones where you make your own schedule. Plenty of "jobs" out there where a person can decide a week before, the day before, or even an hour before whether they want to be working or not.  What you get out is largely what you put in, both in terms of compensation and self-gratification.  FWIW most of my working career has been closer to the latter.  IME more of our workforce has transitioned to this model as contract employment, self-employed and the so-called "gig economy" have become bigger fractions of "work".

tl-dr;
  • work is not binary; it's a broad spectrum with a very fuzzy definition
  • everything one choses to do involves a time commitment of some sort, which can be very rigid (e.g. attending someone else's performance) or incredibly flexible. Likewise some "work" schedules are very rigid while others are quite fluid.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2024, 07:08:03 AM by nereo »

Metalcat

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2024, 06:50:45 AM »
This whole thing seems like the "Internet Retirement Police" all over again.  People so self-assured that they have the one true definition of what constitutes 'work' and when it can be applied during retirement (if ever). 

Just for fun I'll throw in another:  both my parents are "traditionally retired" after working traditional jobs for the traditional amount of years.  Both started volunteering for organizations they were tangentially involved with on a very limited basis (4-12 hours/week).   Work/not-work?  Then, after volunteering each was told they had to be put onto payroll because of ::reasons:: - and so now they are getting a token amount of money every two weeks doing the thing they were doing anyway in retirement.  Work/not-work?  Does it matter that they so badly overshot their retirement and these now-paid positions offer so little in compensation that they barely make a dent in their quarterly tax bills and do not alter their retirement safety net one iota?

I'm partly responsible for bringing this up a few dozen posts ago because I bristle at the suggestion that "work" is [almost] always an inflexible 9-5 job of reporting to someone else to do something you otherwise wouldn't want to do if you weren't paid to do it.  That describes many jobs but certainly not all.  Maybe not even "most" depending on how we classify things. Then there's the additional "I don't want to have to keep to a fixed schedule or trade my unscripted free time for work".  ok... but work scheduling again is on a spectrum, from jobs where you are on a fixed, inflexible schedule (or even "on call" 24/7) to ones where you make your own schedule. Plenty of "jobs" out there were a person can decide a week before, the day before, or even an hour before whether they want to be working or not.  What you get out is largely what you put in, both in terms of compensation and self-gratification.  FWIW most of my working career has been closer to the latter.  IME more of our workforce has transitioned to this model as contract employment, self-employed and the so-called "gig economy" have become bigger fractions of "work".

tl-dr;
  • work is not binary; it's a broad spectrum with a very fuzzy definition
  • everything one choses to do involves a time commitment of some sort, which can be very rigid (e.g. attending someone else's performance) or incredibly flexible. Likewise some "work" schedules are very rigid while others are quite fluid.

Exactly this. DH used to work for employment services Canada and worked on multiple reports about the changing nature of work.

A lot of people don't have much exposure to the more unstructured world of work if they've only done megacorp their entire lives, but that ecosystem is a much smaller slice of the overall work pie than a lot of folks imagine.

The world of work is remarkably diverse and I find I run up against this resistance to that fact a disturbing number of times around here.

GuitarStv

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2024, 07:16:28 AM »
The line between a "job" and a "paid hobby" is extremely unclear, and frankly, I find that most people arbitrarily categorize activities as "work" primarily when it's crap they don't want to do.

Which is...interesting.

It's work when they have to pay you to do it.  :P

But what if you would be willing to do it for free? What about someone who sells an occasional painting.

Again, there's this bias that "work" is only activities that people would rather not be doing. That may be common, but it's not accurate.

If you would do it for free, then it's not work.  Doesn't mean that it's not something that takes up a lot of your time and care, or that you don't get a great product at the end.

Work is entirely dependent upon outlook.  If you wouldn't do something if someone isn't going to pay you for it, then it's not something you like.  So work.  And it's even dependent upon conditions of the work.  You might like painting on your own time (hobby) but hate painting on a corporate schedule with boardroom meetings that decide your topics and colours (work).

See, this is the attitude that I don't get, probably because I've always been self employed and had enormous autonomy.

Just because a lot of jobs are traditional, corporate employment doesn't mean you folks have a monopoly on defining what "work" is.

There's a giant world of folks out there who work who don't have structured corporate jobs. I come from a whole family of entrepreneurs, so my conceptualization of work isn't defined by large corporate governance structures.

It's not corporate really.  It's whether or not you really want to be doing the thing, or are doing the thing because you feel compelled to by an external force.  Someone is paying you to do was just the easiest way I could conceptualize it - but there are of course many unpaid types of work.  If you're doing housework because you feel like you'll be judged for not having it done - that's still work.  If you're making food because your toddler will be hungry otherwise - still work.  If you're doing any of the myriad tasks that an entrepreneur does because a client demands it - still work.

If you would do the thing for fun without someone else demanding that you do it, then not work.  In some ways, work is an outlook on things.  That's why it makes sense to me that some people would never want to retire - they would probably want to keep doing what they're doing even if nobody was asking them to do it.

nereo

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2024, 07:24:43 AM »
It's not corporate really.  It's whether or not you really want to be doing the thing, or are doing the thing because you feel compelled to by an external force.  Someone is paying you to do was just the easiest way I could conceptualize it - but there are of course many unpaid types of work.  If you're doing housework because you feel like you'll be judged for not having it done - that's still work.  If you're making food because your toddler will be hungry otherwise - still work.  If you're doing any of the myriad tasks that an entrepreneur does because a client demands it - still work.

If you would do the thing for fun without someone else demanding that you do it, then not work.  In some ways, work is an outlook on things.  That's why it makes sense to me that some people would never want to retire - they would probably want to keep doing what they're doing even if nobody was asking them to do it.

The above also highlights to me why defining "work" in the context of "retirement" is a losing battle.  In your examples you may still have "work" to do that may even be unpaid while fully retired ("housework", feeding family, etc). At the same time anything you do not demanded by an external force is not work, even if you get paid (i guess....?)  That describes a good number of things I do every month which are vaguely tied to my "job" (and get paid for) but not required or even expected of me.

joer1212

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2024, 07:33:54 AM »
If you would do it for free, then it's not work.
This, right here, sums it up, and bypasses all the needless intellectualizing.

I would, however, add one caveat: "If you would do it for free, exactly as you're doing it now (same schedule, same conditions), then it's not work"
« Last Edit: June 25, 2024, 07:37:34 AM by joer1212 »

nereo

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Re: The Economist: "Why you should never retire"
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2024, 07:48:31 AM »
If you would do it for free, then it's not work.
This, right here, sums it up, and bypasses all the needless intellectualizing.

I would, however, add one caveat: "If you would do it for free, exactly as you're doing it now (same schedule, same conditions), then it's not work"

..except it doesn't for many of us, and leaves the whole conversation going around in circles.