Author Topic: The answer is jobs!  (Read 13528 times)

Systematic

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The answer is jobs!
« on: October 24, 2013, 12:18:58 AM »
It's election time and a conservative party sign has appeared.

it says

Conservatives believe the answer to welfare is Jobs

A mustachian has posted an A4 sign on it that says therefore the conservative party believes the answer is not retirement or investment income, health or education. really- you getting rid?  When it is removed it will be replaced if anyone has any ideas for a simple comment

The sign offends my mustachian sensibilities

so any suggestions?


Jamesqf

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2013, 12:38:37 PM »
Why does it offend your sensibilities?  Surely in order to accumulate enough of a stash to make retirement (or even financial independence) possible, you need an income?  And unless you inherit or leech off others, you need a job of some sort (even if it isn't the traditional 9-5 sort) to provide that income?

MrsPete

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2013, 02:21:43 PM »
Well, it's not realistic.  Or, perhaps it's better to say that it's overly simplistic. 

Many of the people on welfare aren't qualified to work at anything beyond fast food or unskilled labor.  And for others, work doesn't pay enough to provide child care for their children while they work. 

The real answer is better education so that people will qualify for the jobs that are needed.  No, not more college graduates.  We need more people skilled in trades -- there's a demand for skilled workers.  What we need is better vocational education in high schools, and we need a better attitude towards those classes.  I see lots of students (and worse, their parents) who insist that their kid MUST HAVE a college prep course load in high school . . . even though the kid doesn't like school, doesn't like to read, skips whenever he can, and doesn't earn grades that will get him into college  . . . and he looks down on the kids who take bricklaying, thinking that they're shortchanging themselves by learning a blue-collar trade.  Those kids who take the bricklaying or electronics classes in high school make more money than I do. 


Jamesqf

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2013, 02:42:57 PM »
Well, it's not realistic.  Or, perhaps it's better to say that it's overly simplistic. 

It's a political slogan, so by definition it's overly simplistic :-)

By the same token, increased vocational education is likewise simplistic.  That kid who learns just bricklaying may be out of a job when the construction industry slumps, or when someone invents a bricklaying robot.  Nor are the two mutually exclusive: though these days I work out around the bleeding edge of tech, at one time in my life, I spent several years doing something quite similar to bricklaying.  Would I be where I am now if I'd stuck a mental "bricklayer" label on myself (or kept the one the educational system stuck on me), and refused to think about doing something completely different?

Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2013, 03:37:49 PM »
Several points

1. Job is just doing something for pay.  Some of us mustachians don't need a job for their welfare.  And this message reinforces the concept that the answer for everyone is just having a job in terms of theirr welfare (ie well being) is jobs

2. The funny thing I didn't realise is they put it in an area of desolation. We have plenty of jobs, some have no sewer, stuffed houses, lost schools, abandoned crumbilng houses so I should write

so it's not housing, roads, footpaths sewerage, schools. fixing our neighbourhood then. Thanks

Sometimes discussing something clarifies the issue

Thanks

Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2013, 08:25:03 PM »
have just changed the sign to read

conservatives believe the answer to welfare is "early retirement" 

and theres a sign pointing out what we've spoken about before

as I was doing it someone got their young child to yell out the window "get a job you loser"

a young schoolboy stopped and helped me.  He said he feels really insulted by that sign and was pleased to help. Perhaps his family is on welfare.

Jamesqf

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2013, 10:49:48 PM »
Job is just doing something for pay.  Some of us mustachians don't need a job for their welfare.

But unless you inherited money, at some point you must have had a job which allowed you to accumulate enough money to be financially independent, no?

Quote
And this message reinforces the concept that the answer for everyone is just having a job in terms of theirr welfare (ie well being) is jobs

Sorry, but in this context "welfare" doesn't mean well being, it means you're living off the work of other people, i.e. taxpayers.

Quote
The funny thing I didn't realise is they put it in an area of desolation. We have plenty of jobs, some have no sewer, stuffed houses, lost schools, abandoned crumbilng houses so I should write

And if you get a decent job, you can move away from that place.

ncornilsen

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2013, 09:35:42 AM »
We had an earthquake. I love where i live. Don't assume. You don't just leave. I belong here.This is the sort of assumption the conservatives are making.

Thanks for that. I try not to tell our situation too often because unless you live it it must get tedious. Oh and i care full time for my terminally mother. I could go on but i think just this once im going to say it how dare you assume.

I know what they're implying, but its a way to hit at people and our neighbourhood doesn't need this electioneering.

And i thought mustachians would see how everyones assuming that a job is the answer is so ironic. If we want to get people off welfare we should teach them to save so they can support themselves and you know others rather than go on welfare. But no to keep us off welfare we just need a job because you must be on the dole.

I don't think mr money moustache is on welfare and he hasn't got a job. 

And no i didnt inherit i saved for 20 years living on the equivalent of welfare.

I will say the state pays our groceries. But if I didn't look after mum they would pay 4 times this much for a hospital care rest home.

You're looking for a reason to be offended at a political perspective you don't hold. Same as the people looking to be offended by Obummer's "You didn't build that!" gaffe.  Perhaps that person is saying that the government ought to be providing jobs instead of welfare, see the FDR programs in the depression. That ought to jive with a statist/left wing authoritarian mindset.


Jamesqf

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2013, 12:46:37 PM »
I don't think mr money moustache is on welfare and he hasn't got a job.

But he did have a job for a number of years, during which he saved enough of his income to become financially independent.

I would also (at the risk of being outed as an agent of the Internet Retirement Police) say that he has a couple of fairly lucrative part-time jobs now: his construction work, and this blog.

Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2013, 08:40:54 PM »
In NZ the Conservative Party doesn't have a seat. I first heard of it last year. They have no traction.

They just say silly things in the media to get attention

It's like they're have taken a formula from overseas and plonked it on our door step.

And they plonked it right in the most damaged part.

This clip gives an idea of what the feeling is like and shows what our suburb looks like, after 3 years.

I know its amateur. But the words are true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JZK1GK0FKM

Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2013, 05:54:32 PM »
Just to clarify our unemployment rate is less that the natural rate of unemployment.  We haven't been struck by the recession like many other countries..  About 20 years ago we had some major recessionary impacts when some large firms with dodgey business practices collapsed starting an ongoing recession and many people were unemployed. But that was quite a few years ago now. This would have been a good time in my eyes for the FDR programme which I always thought of as the New Deal.  I assume you're speaking of Franklin D Roosevelt

 I have spent a bit of time looking at the economic impact of the New Deal in the past. From memory this was how fiscal policy really got started. I'm a real supporter of it, but it doesn't really apply here because there's jobs for everyone.  If we were in a recession and they created jobs to build schools etc I'd whole heartedly agree. It saddens me that it's not happening in countries where there is recession at the moment.  My support for such a scheme would depend on the provision of a "decent living" wage.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 06:38:19 PM by Systematic »

Richard3

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2013, 07:55:46 PM »
Ahh the NZ conservative party. I still think they only exist to make ACT look rational.


Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2013, 08:36:56 PM »
You're on to it

I'm suspicious that they're Act in disguise. A lot of money is getting poured into it. Their billboards are bigger and their publicity has clearly been well financed at such an early point in the campaign
Have you seen all their candidates? They've definitely got a large budget I know how much these things cost.

What a chance for act to start anew with a clean reputation, or is Act pulling the strings?. Perhaps they have even done a deal because Act is pretty much finished and National needs a partner.  they could be building the brand and next election, Act and they, merge.

Will never forget when in a radio interview Roger Douglas was asked what he was most proud of. He said before Labour came into office there was at most one car per family now it's at least two.

Roger shows left wing and right wing is often blurred too. I just don't want to see these games in my community, let alone country. 



Richard3

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2013, 01:41:11 AM »
I thought they used to be the "Christian" Conservatives but I haven't been following NZ politics until very recently when I came home so I could be wrong.


Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2013, 02:07:09 AM »
It looks like there was some christian influence in the 1990 s when they wanted to ban the internet because of pornography ross meurant, the red sqaud police officer from the sprinkbok tour was involved then and later christine rankin.

As an aside was just scanning through american radio and listened to Hayley Westenra singing pokarekare ana and other songs in concert in nz. Small world.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 02:23:02 AM by Systematic »

Richard3

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2013, 04:27:55 PM »

Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2013, 07:19:02 PM »
There"s always one, thank goodness. :)

There is now a same size labour sign, saying standing up for Christchurch East

All my contributions are gone, including the bugger the politicians sign

But it was worth it for a few days.

And with the labour sign it evens things up

No national sign, i have a feeling they might think we're a bit upset with them, a wise move.



GuitarStv

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2013, 07:31:15 AM »
Obummer

You seem to have misspelled 'Obama'.

Are you too new to language to know how to correct your spelling, or too incompetent to put together a cohesive argument without name calling?

ncornilsen

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2013, 08:19:42 AM »

You seem to have misspelled 'Obama'.

Are you too new to language to know how to correct your spelling, or too incompetent to put together a cohesive argument without name calling?

Neither.  After the OP defaced that sign, it was clear they are unable to accept a diversity of thought, and is a left-wing authoritarian. I decided spelling it that way would lower the class of my argument to one they could comprehend.  After my post I realized the OP wasn't from America, so perhaps it does not have the same effect, and perhaps the conservatives in that country aren't what I'd call a conservative here... Doesn't matter, I'd rather someone be working than be on Welfare, no matter the nation.

GuitarStv

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2013, 08:35:34 AM »

You seem to have misspelled 'Obama'.

Are you too new to language to know how to correct your spelling, or too incompetent to put together a cohesive argument without name calling?

Neither.  After the OP defaced that sign, it was clear they are unable to accept a diversity of thought, and is a left-wing authoritarian. I decided spelling it that way would lower the class of my argument to one they could comprehend.  After my post I realized the OP wasn't from America, so perhaps it does not have the same effect, and perhaps the conservatives in that country aren't what I'd call a conservative here... Doesn't matter, I'd rather someone be working than be on Welfare, no matter the nation.

I have a question for you . . . do you think that people of means should be allowed to leave their money to their children?

ncornilsen

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2013, 10:50:24 AM »
I have a question for you . . . do you think that people of means should be allowed to leave their money to their children?

Inheritance's aren't the same, in anyway, as welfare, and you are not clever.

But yes, and I am not a supporter of estate taxes.



Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2013, 11:06:42 AM »
I think what people overseas call conservative we call national. Which is centre right. Then far right is ACT. Who are very small and have a few problems. Far far right us the Conservatives.  The concept of banning the internet is representative of its thinking. They have no history in this island. They come from up north. 


Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2013, 11:10:55 AM »
Seeing as Obama was mentioned. New Zealand has cradle to grave government health care. You can get private insurance for some extras.  I guess I am left wing because I wouldn't want to see this go.

GuitarStv

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2013, 11:26:56 AM »
I have a question for you . . . do you think that people of means should be allowed to leave their money to their children?

Inheritance's aren't the same, in anyway, as welfare, and you are not clever.

But yes, and I am not a supporter of estate taxes.

That's cool.  I can totally see how receiving benefits from rich parents without earning them from a job is completely different from receiving benefits from the government without earning them from a job.  I mean c'mon . . . in the first scenario the recipient most likely comes from a well off background and clearly doesn't have the kind of benefits and connections available to a person who grew up in the ghetto.

ncornilsen

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2013, 12:15:07 PM »
I have a question for you . . . do you think that people of means should be allowed to leave their money to their children?

Inheritance's aren't the same, in anyway, as welfare, and you are not clever.

But yes, and I am not a supporter of estate taxes.

That's cool.  I can totally see how receiving benefits from rich parents without earning them from a job is completely different from receiving benefits from the government without earning them from a job.  I mean c'mon . . . in the first scenario the recipient most likely comes from a well off background and clearly doesn't have the kind of benefits and connections available to a person who grew up in the ghetto.

Yes, it is totally different... they don't take money from the middle class at the point of a gun to distribute it to the trust fund D-bags (who're a small minority of the children of rich parents anyway). Besides, I didn't say I am 100% against welfare, but I'd rather those people be working than not. And if they must get welfare, I'm sure there is work they could be doing to 'earn' it.

GuitarStv

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2013, 12:29:00 PM »
Meh . . . I see unearned money as being the same regardless of who gives it to you.  Personally I couldn't support one without the other.

Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2013, 12:35:23 PM »
Here we go. The speculation in national media is whether the conservatives can be a coalition with national. Prime minister says he won"t rule it out, he wants to see how it goes.

So it looks like we are a practice run for the general election, trying to rebrand conservatives.   Nice, lets play this game in the middle of a natural disaster zone, good thinking guys. Thanks for that.

I don't think people understand what it's like here.  A person could have absolutely no education and earn at least 2x the dole holding a road sign.  its financially in everyones best interest to work including myself.  But for some people it's not the morally right thing to do. Putting someone in a government funded rest home hospital who can be looked after at home to me is wrong. This is why some mustachians are mustachians so they can make choices. Our elderly can choose any private rest home and if the elderly person meets the criteria the government will pay.  but life isn't all about money and a "job"

I find the assumptions by mustachians regarding inheritance as being somewhat surprising. I guess we're all different.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 12:55:45 PM by Systematic »

ncornilsen

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2013, 01:43:13 PM »
Meh . . . I see unearned money as being the same regardless of who gives it to you.  Personally I couldn't support one without the other.

Well, that's your personal belief.  My value system doesn't require you to act counter to yours... you have the choice to do with your life's work what you will. Your value system apparently wants to take away my choices (when it comes to inheritance.) which I find unconscionable.

Were I in the position to hand my kids a significant portion of money upon my demise, and they weren't living in a way that I felt entitled them to receive it, some charity might be getting a nice gift. But that money was MY life's work, it was taxed when I earned it, so I already gave back to the infrastructure that allowed me to earn it... I should do able to disposition it as I choose. Welfare, there are no strings. I think there ought to be more.

Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2013, 07:05:53 PM »
The most important thing is not the money I leave for future generations. It's how I live my life. I want future generations to live in a community that cares. If the next generation has someone in it who is born with a mental or physical health issue, or is struggling I want them to be in a community that cares and is supportive rather than knocking them down. 

Its a difficult decision that we all have to make regarding how we leave money for the future, but whatever we do, I don't want my family living in a community that knocks people when they're down, that leads to bad results for everyone.

No doubt I've had different experiences than some,  which has led to a different interpretation of life.


ncornilsen

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2013, 08:44:37 PM »
Um, confiscating the life's work of an individual does not a 'caring' community make. Not to mention presenting the provision of a baseline existence for those who're unable to work due to health issues is not even remotely related to inheritance's, (and inheritances were a bad attempt at presenting a red herring in this discussion anyway.) NOR is it at odds with the sentiment that those who are of able body and mind and on welfare ought to work!

It's also been shown via studies, that in the united states, conservative types are far more generous with their personal fortunes than the supposedly caring leftists. Perhaps you're fighting against a 'caring community' without even realizing it. Of course the money you leave isn't the most important thing, it's your legacy, the values instilled in your children, etc. But that doesn't make confiscatory inheritance taxes the moral high road. Quite the opposite infact.

jamface10

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2013, 08:59:28 PM »
Did you take a photo? I want to see if I can guess where it was :P

Systematic

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2013, 09:12:58 PM »
I don't get this. My lifes work is what i do. how can anyone confiscate that.

 I think you are upset about inheritance taxes.  We used to have gift duty, But it's changed,  It's only an issue here for farmers and they have a way around it.

 As has been said before.  I think what people overseas call conservative and the experience here is completely different  I don't think there are many people overseas who would call themselves conservatives and try and ban the internet or have Christine Rankin in their party.

I don't know about studies re conservative overseas. It's a completely different kettle of fish.

As I say what you have experienced as conservative is completely different than our experiences.

Richard3

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2013, 03:31:32 PM »
It's also been shown via studies, that in the united states, conservative types are far more generous with their personal fortunes than the supposedly caring leftists.

Source please.

I'm going to try to stay out of the inheritance tax debate because I've had it more times than I care to admit, but this sort of claim interests me if it can be proven.


Richard3

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2013, 04:08:25 PM »
I strongly suspect that this study that right wingers are so keen to trumpet counted religious donations as charitable giving.

Quote
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/10/21/study-conservatives-and-liberals-are-equally-charitable-but-they-give-to-different-charities/

Take away churches as charities, however, and red states no longer dominate the world of donations. Instead, New England – a region that leans Democratic, with far fewer religiously affiliated Americans but with more affluent residents – catapults toward the top.

... if churches are excluded, the South’s percentage drops to 0.9% and New England’s only drops to 1.4%"

Yep, what you present as "Republicans give more or at least about the same" is actually "Democrats give more to charity and Republicans give money to religion (most of which is not used for charitable purposes under anything but the legal meaning of the word)". Good try though - it's one of the cleverer pieces of spin I've seen this week.

Churches are not charities. They may undertake some charitable actions (depending on the church - I have been to good churches that do a lot for the world and I have been to bad churches that are full of greedy proud people) but the primary function of a church is not making the world a better place (unless you believe in Jesus and think that converting people to Christianity is a good thing). Atheists would say that church proselyting actually makes the world a worse place but both atheists and Christians would agree that feeding the hungry is a good thing - hardcore libertarians probably don't but let's limit the discussion to non-fringe groups :P


beltim

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2013, 04:25:07 PM »
I strongly suspect that this study that right wingers are so keen to trumpet counted religious donations as charitable giving.

Quote
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/10/21/study-conservatives-and-liberals-are-equally-charitable-but-they-give-to-different-charities/

Take away churches as charities, however, and red states no longer dominate the world of donations. Instead, New England – a region that leans Democratic, with far fewer religiously affiliated Americans but with more affluent residents – catapults toward the top.

... if churches are excluded, the South’s percentage drops to 0.9% and New England’s only drops to 1.4%"

Yep, what you present as "Republicans give more or at least about the same" is actually "Democrats give more to charity and Republicans give money to religion (most of which is not used for charitable purposes under anything but the legal meaning of the word)". Good try though - it's one of the cleverer pieces of spin I've seen this week.

Churches are not charities. They may undertake some charitable actions (depending on the church - I have been to good churches that do a lot for the world and I have been to bad churches that are full of greedy proud people) but the primary function of a church is not making the world a better place (unless you believe in Jesus and think that converting people to Christianity is a good thing). Atheists would say that church proselyting actually makes the world a worse place but both atheists and Christians would agree that feeding the hungry is a good thing - hardcore libertarians probably don't but let's limit the discussion to non-fringe groups :P

Does this take into account religiously affiliated charities?  Catholic Relief Services, for example, would certainly count as a "religious charity" in that survey, but is certainly not a church or religion.

Richard3

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2013, 07:56:41 PM »
Ahh, I pasted the wrong link in there.

I meant to refer to the time article which specifically said churches, not religiously affiliated charities so I have to assume that's what Time at least meant.

The wapo article (now that it loads for me) is more vaguely worded as "religiously affiliated" but I believe accounting for Catholic relief and the like doesn't affect things much. CRS had revenue of $918m in 2010 (wiki). Church giving was almost $29b in 2012 with the Catholics probably accounting for over half of it (based on member numbers) http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2012/march/report-church-giving-dropped-12-billion-in-2010-recession.html. So less than 10% of the money going to religiously affiliated organisations appears to be going to the charitable wings.

My position is that churches are not charities (in the sense of "giving money to charity" being "helping others") and should be removed from any  "charitable giving" discussion . Most of the money spent by a church benefits itself (salaries, power bills, new pews, etc). Therefore I maintain that the claim that "conservatives give more" is at best mistaken and at worst a willful misrepresentation of the facts, more likely by "real clear politics" rather than tserpentstooth - I am not accusing him (or her) of any wrongdoing

beltim

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2013, 08:08:26 PM »
Ahh, I pasted the wrong link in there.

I meant to refer to the time article which specifically said churches, not religiously affiliated charities so I have to assume that's what Time at least meant.

The wapo article (now that it loads for me) is more vaguely worded as "religiously affiliated" but I believe accounting for Catholic relief and the like doesn't affect things much. CRS had revenue of $918m in 2010 (wiki). Church giving was almost $29b in 2012 with the Catholics probably accounting for over half of it (based on member numbers) http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2012/march/report-church-giving-dropped-12-billion-in-2010-recession.html. So less than 10% of the money going to religiously affiliated organisations appears to be going to the charitable wings.

My position is that churches are not charities (in the sense of "giving money to charity" being "helping others") and should be removed from any  "charitable giving" discussion . Most of the money spent by a church benefits itself (salaries, power bills, new pews, etc). Therefore I maintain that the claim that "conservatives give more" is at best mistaken and at worst a willful misrepresentation of the facts, more likely by "real clear politics" rather than tserpentstooth - I am not accusing him (or her) of any wrongdoing

Yeah, I figured out the wrong link.  But the Time article source, the Chronicle of Philanthropy article, uses the "religion" language, not "church": "Donors in Southern states, for instance, give roughly 5.2 percent of their discretionary income to charity—both to religious and to secular groups—compared with donors in the Northeast, who give 4.0 percent.
But the generosity ranking changes when religion is taken out of the picture. People in the Northeast give the most, providing 1.4 percent of their discretionary income to secular charities, compared with those in the South, who give 0.9 percent."

I also disagree with you about churches not helping others, as it's quite clear to see that many, if not the vast majority of churches, do in fact have specific programs to help the less fortunate.  Figuring out the resources that go into that is quite difficult, however. 

beltim

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2013, 08:11:18 PM »
And, of course, I listed only one religiously affiliated charity that is not a church.  There are hundreds, if not thousands of such organizations. 

rosaz

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2013, 08:41:44 PM »
Another point I think mentioning in the conservative vs. liberal generosity debate: liberals tend to vote higher state taxes for themselves, much of which tax money goes towards things like schools, healthcare, and food assistance. You can argue whether charities are more or less effective at providing these services than the government, but from a generosity perspective, if I vote to pay more taxes that go to a state-funded clinic (which I won't myself use), is that somehow less charitable than giving the same amount of money to a private hospital?

beltim

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2013, 08:55:36 PM »
Here's a plot of average tax burden (from http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/total_taxes/) versus charitable giving (from http://philanthropy.com/article/Generosity-in-the-States/133707/)

I think it's interesting that there's practically no relationship. 

Richard3

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Re: The answer is jobs!
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2013, 09:01:24 PM »
There are three sorts of lies in the world - lies damn lies and statistics. :)

On second thoughts, I'm going to delete the paragraphs that were here and give up on this church discussion, it's only going to get messy.


My last comment on this issue is that even if we did have some sort of indisputable rating delivered by an incorruptible and universally respected jackal-headed judge of whether a person is good or bad that has almost no bearing on whether their ideas on a specific issue are right or not. The moral high ground is the last refuge of scoundrels.