Teachers taking out personal loans to cover expenses in the Summer

[LennStar]

I think for all those paycheck-to paycheck teachers it would be a nice lesson (oh... no pun intended lol) to try the plus one method.
Every month (or 2 weeks it is for you), you have the target to survive one day longer on your pay.
So month 1 you try 31 days instead of 30 (for easiness month =30d). second month you go 32 day, third month 33 days... until you reach your goal of saved days. After a year, your paycheck already lasts you 42 days = nearly 30% savings rate! And you are already living only on the october money at christmas ;)

With this you can gradually get used to this and have time to find ways to slash your expenses. And even if you dont reach your goal, you have more money.

[Ohio Teacher]

My district gives us no choice but to pay us over 12 months.  Before I started, the choice was given between 10 or 12 months, but it changed.  I can only imagine it's to save many of us from ourselves.  I can think of at least a few work buddies who would be in the poorhouse if they actually had to budget for two months of no pay, some of whom are math teachers. 

On a related note, our pension recently underwent some changes that now require 35 years AND age 60 to get the full pension.  Many were complaining that it would require them to teach 36 or 37 years in order to get to the age requirement.  I suggested that they take a two year sabbatical, as allowed by my district, and then come back and finish, thus giving them the minimum 35 years when they reach 60 years old.  One of the math teachers gasped and said, "But who could AFFORD to do that.  Do you know how much money you'd have to have saved up????"  I replied, "Yes, two years of expenses."  She said, "No one can do that.  You're young, you'll understand down the road."  Ahh, the woefully ignorant.

[spider1204]

For some more positive examples, I've been road tripping for the summer and have met several teachers along the way.  They seem to be putting their 2 months of furlough to good use by taking a nice long vacation during which they spend their days climbing and their evenings cooking by the campfire.

[Zikoris]

Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service.  Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants.  And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco.  Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid.  Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.

In New York a teacher with a masters and 10 years of experience would make a LOT more than that - they start at $45K for no experience, minimal education, and go up to just over 100K. http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm

San Fran starts at about $45 and goes up to over $82K. http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf

[MrsPete]

Has anyone else noticed that jobs described as "a calling" are jobs that no one would do at that pay rate, in those conditions, if it was just presented as a normal job?

Perhaps it doesn't make sense to people who aren't in these jobs, but I know that I was always a teacher.  Before I started school, I was fascinated by the concept of the classroom.  One of my favorite games in elementary school was "playing school".  It never occurred to me that NONE of my siblings or cousins ever initiated this game -- it was always me.  I remember making worksheets for my siblings.  I remember one summer my aunt was in a serious car wreck and my cousins came to live with us for a while -- I divided the family's closets into "cubbies".  I've been told time and time again that I have a "teacher voice"; that is, I give clear, concise instructions and (when it suits me) I project more loudly than you'd expect for my size.  My daughter was the same way about nursing; from the time she was a toddler, she was already giving her dolls shots and operations.  No one told us that these were "callings" or that we should be these things.  It was in us from the start; it's part of our personalities. 

Perhaps that is one reason we stay, even at these pay rates.  It's just what we are.  My "runner-up job" was librarian, which shares many traits with teaching.

For the record, I used to feel that my salary was fair (because we do have significant perks in terms of work schedule, and that's worth something) and that I was in a partnership with the state to provide a good classroom experience for my students.  I used to feel that I was valued as an employee.  Things have gone downhill significantly in the last years in my state, and those things are no longer true. 

Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service. 

I just checked the salary scale in my state.  A teacher with only a Bachelor's degree will NEVER reach 50K.  A teacher with a Masters AND National Board Certification will top 50K in his or her 20th year. 

Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).

Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.

On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.

Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher.  I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers.  I also get a ton of time off.  I really don't have much to complain about."

That kind of honesty would be refreshing.

Thing about averages is, they're not a real picture of anyone's actual salary.  That's like taking a sampling of all writers and saying, "JK Rowling makes a billion a year, Diana Gabaldon and Steven King each make a million a year, and a buttload of aspiring writers make nothing . . . so the average writer is earning about 100,000K."  It's not representative of anyone's real salary. 

No, unions aren't responsible for putting this idea into people's heads.  Teacher unions have a stranglehold on a small portion of the country, but the vast majority of teachers aren't union members -- in fact, teacher unions are illegal in my state.  The fact is that teacher salaries are near the bottom of the scale for college-educated professionals and always have been. 

[beltim]

Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).

Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.

On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.

Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher.  I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers.  I also get a ton of time off.  I really don't have much to complain about."

That kind of honesty would be refreshing.

And the median pay (usually about 1/3 less than mean (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html)) of all people with a bachelor's degree or more is $61,700:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm

For their education, there's no arguing that teachers are dramatically underpaid.

[nirvines88]

Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service.  Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants.  And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco.  Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid.  Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.

In New York a teacher with a masters and 10 years of experience would make a LOT more than that - they start at $45K for no experience, minimal education, and go up to just over 100K. http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm

San Fran starts at about $45 and goes up to over $82K. http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf

That must be nice.  Here in North Carolina you can have your master's degree AND 10 years experience and still not crack 40k.  See pages 2 and 3 of the link below for the complete salary schedule.

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2013-14schedules.pdf   

On the bright side, if I can stick it out for 35 (!) years I'll make 57k (luckily I won't have to do that since I'm somewhat Mustachian).  Oh wait, that assumes the legislature actually honors the experience pay increase ladder, which they haven't for the last 6 years...despite it supposedly being a part of the contract we signed.

Maybe there is something to be said for unionization after all? (I can't believe I just said that)  NC is a right to work state unlike the states listed above.

BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless?  I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).

[Ohio Teacher]

That must be nice.  Here in North Carolina you can have your master's degree AND 10 years experience and still not crack 40k.  See pages 2 and 3 of the link below for the complete salary schedule.

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2013-14schedules.pdf   

On the bright side, if I can stick it out for 35 (!) years I'll make 57k (luckily I won't have to do that since I'm somewhat Mustachian).  Oh wait, that assumes the legislature actually honors the experience pay increase ladder, which they haven't for the last 6 years...despite it supposedly being a part of the contract we signed.

Maybe there is something to be said for unionization after all? (I can't believe I just said that)  NC is a right to work state unlike the states listed above.

BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless?  I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).

I am sorry to hear that you are a teacher in North Carolina.  When I was fresh out of college, I went to an Education Job Fair at my school.  There were representatives there from public schools throughout Ohio, mostly within 100 miles or so.  And.... there were two schools there from North Carolina.  When you have to recruit teachers from three states away, you know there's something wrong. 

[MoneyCat]

BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless?  I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).

You'll never be able to convince people who just instinctively hate teachers.  They all remember "Mean Mrs. Crabtree" in 5th grade and decide to take their revenge on teachers now that they are adults.  Well, they got us.  We can't really do anything about them destroying our lives by cutting our pay and benefits, so the only solution is to go Mustachian and look for more selfish employment.

I hope everyone enjoys the current and future generations of children who are completely incapable of critical reasoning.  But don't worry.  As long as their jobs involve filling in Scantron sheets or parroting back memorized facts, they will be just fine.

[Self-employed-swami]

BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless?  I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).

Interesting, I didn't know that he was a geologist!

My husband is a teacher.  He has 6+ years of university, and is at year 2 on the salary grid.  If he were actually working more than temp gigs right now, he would be making $68,372.  They haven't had a contract since August 2012 here though, so it's starting to get contentious with the division.   We are in Canada.  I'm a geologist, and I grossed somewhere between 2 and 2.5 times that last year (still haven't met with the accountant yet, year end was June)

[Goldielocks]

+1 for all that MoneyCat says.  Over and over again - what MoneyCat says.  If you think we are overpaid and under worked come do our job.  Follow me around for a day. Come to professional development meetings. Watch our morale tank as students run the school and parents make demands. And kids out there - find something else to do. Anything else.  At least you can go to the bathroom when you need to in some other field.

i think most here agree with you,  but we also know that there is a lot of crap in many many workplaces.  Think about it, most here are planning to FIRE.  There must be a reason why if we are not all teachers.... could it be that teachers do not have an extra crappy job, just  different type of problems?

[Brad_H]

Some of you seem to be operating under the Labor = Price assumption; that the Labor being the time, effort and expenses of advanced degrees should reflect in the Price, or salary, but economists haven't believed this since the late 1700s. Since then it has been shown that Price only equals what people are willing to pay for a given service, or product, regardless of what went into producing it.

Please Read: Basic Economics: A Common Sense Guide to the Economy

Your selling yourselves at a loss.

[viper155]

Has anyone else noticed that jobs described as "a calling" are jobs that no one would do at that pay rate, in those conditions, if it was just presented as a normal job?

Except for being a fireman. In some big cities 100k is quite attainable with a great benefits package. Then you have guys that do it for free all over the country. Go figure

[Brad_H]

Has anyone else noticed that jobs described as "a calling" are jobs that no one would do at that pay rate, in those conditions, if it was just presented as a normal job?

Except for being a fireman. In some big cities 100k is quite attainable with a great benefits package. Then you have guys that do it for free all over the country. Go figure

I don't know the salary distribution of Firefighters myself but if what you say is true; doesn't it make sense that the owners of multimillion dollar skyscrapers all tightly packed together (and the community that works in them) would value (price) firefighters more than a rural community with a few $100 thousand dollar buildings together?

[libertarian4321]

Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).

Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.

On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.

Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher.  I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers.  I also get a ton of time off.  I really don't have much to complain about."

That kind of honesty would be refreshing.

And the median pay (usually about 1/3 less than mean (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html)) of all people with a bachelor's degree or more is $61,700:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm

For their education, there's no arguing that teachers are dramatically underpaid.

Dramatically underpaid?

They make about $58,000.  The average person with similar education level makes about $61k.  That means teachers make slightly below average for their level of education.

They also work far less hours than most people with similar educations.  The get long summers off (which gives them plenty of opportunity to make up that $3k difference by working a summer job).  They get  every holiday in the world, and then some (spring break, long Christmas break, etc).

On a per hour basis, they are probably paid significantly above average.

But anyway you look at it, they are hardly "dramatically underpaid."

[beltim]

Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).

Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.

On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.

Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher.  I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers.  I also get a ton of time off.  I really don't have much to complain about."

That kind of honesty would be refreshing.

And the median pay (usually about 1/3 less than mean (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html)) of all people with a bachelor's degree or more is $61,700:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm

For their education, there's no arguing that teachers are dramatically underpaid.

Dramatically underpaid?

They make about $58,000.  The average person with similar education level makes about $61k.  That means teachers make slightly below average for their level of education.

They also work far less hours than most people with similar educations.  The get long summers off (which gives them plenty of opportunity to make up that $3k difference by working a summer job).  They get  every holiday in the world, and then some (spring break, long Christmas break, etc).

On a per hour basis, they are probably paid significantly above average.

But anyway you look at it, they are hardly "dramatically underpaid."

You're comparing a median to a mean.  Can you find me a median teacher salary?  I suggested a rough conversion based on all people pay Social Security taxes, which would mean the median teacher salary is about $39k, compared to the median of people with bachelor's degrees of $61,700.

And most teachers have a master's degree or higher, for which the median salary is $71,600.

[libertarian4321]

Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service.  Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants.  And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco.  Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid.  Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.

In New York a teacher with a masters and 10 years of experience would make a LOT more than that - they start at $45K for no experience, minimal education, and go up to just over 100K. http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm

San Fran starts at about $45 and goes up to over $82K. http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf

That must be nice.  Here in North Carolina you can have your master's degree AND 10 years experience and still not crack 40k.  See pages 2 and 3 of the link below for the complete salary schedule.

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2013-14schedules.pdf   

On the bright side, if I can stick it out for 35 (!) years I'll make 57k (luckily I won't have to do that since I'm somewhat Mustachian).  Oh wait, that assumes the legislature actually honors the experience pay increase ladder, which they haven't for the last 6 years...despite it supposedly being a part of the contract we signed.

Maybe there is something to be said for unionization after all? (I can't believe I just said that)  NC is a right to work state unlike the states listed above.

BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless?  I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).

I was shocked to read that  Michael Jordan has a degree in Geology (a science).

I was also a bit skeptical.

So I looked it up.

He doesn't have a BS degree in Geology (a science) , he has a BA degree in "cultural geography" (not a science). 

Well, technically, he does have a BS degree, but it's not a Baccalaureate of Science, it's the bovine scatology kind of BS degree.

His diploma was up for sale early this year.

http://voices.suntimes.com/sports/michael-jordans-college-diploma-up-for-auction/

[libertarian4321]

Average teacher pay in the USA is now up near $58,000 per year (though it varies widely by locality).

Not "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" money, but a HELL of a lot more than most people make.

On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.

Someday, I hope I meet someone who says, "I'm a teacher.  I get paid a pretty damned good salary, far more than most workers.  I also get a ton of time off.  I really don't have much to complain about."

That kind of honesty would be refreshing.

And the median pay (usually about 1/3 less than mean (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html)) of all people with a bachelor's degree or more is $61,700:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t05.htm

For their education, there's no arguing that teachers are dramatically underpaid.

Dramatically underpaid?

They make about $58,000.  The average person with similar education level makes about $61k.  That means teachers make slightly below average for their level of education.

They also work far less hours than most people with similar educations.  The get long summers off (which gives them plenty of opportunity to make up that $3k difference by working a summer job).  They get  every holiday in the world, and then some (spring break, long Christmas break, etc).

On a per hour basis, they are probably paid significantly above average.

But anyway you look at it, they are hardly "dramatically underpaid."

You're comparing a median to a mean.  Can you find me a median teacher salary?  I suggested a rough conversion based on all people pay Social Security taxes, which would mean the median teacher salary is about $39k, compared to the median of people with bachelor's degrees of $61,700.

And most teachers have a master's degree or higher, for which the median salary is $71,600.

That was an estimated mean for 2014.

The BLS says the median was over $55k in early 2012.  So that 58k for 2014 looks about right.

And yes, "most" teachers do have a master's degree.  Technically.  Because the actual number is about 52%, which is, just barely, "most." 

I'm still having a hard time translating "slightly below average pay for their level of education, with far more time off than most" with being "dramatically underpaid."

Perhaps you could make an argument for slightly underpaid.  But "dramatically?"  I don't think so.  Social workers, maybe, are dramatically underpaid.  Teachers are not.

[libertarian4321]

BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless?  I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).

You'll never be able to convince people who just instinctively hate teachers.  They all remember "Mean Mrs. Crabtree" in 5th grade and decide to take their revenge on teachers now that they are adults.  Well, they got us.  We can't really do anything about them destroying our lives by cutting our pay and benefits, so the only solution is to go Mustachian and look for more selfish employment.

I hope everyone enjoys the current and future generations of children who are completely incapable of critical reasoning.  But don't worry.  As long as their jobs involve filling in Scantron sheets or parroting back memorized facts, they will be just fine.

If you are referring to me because I dared question the "teachers are underpaid" routine, I don't "hate teachers."  I just get a little tired of the "we are woefully underpaid, it's so unfair" mantra.

Neither "Mrs. Crabtree" nor any other teacher ever bothered me.  I got straight A's through my entire school career.

Far from "hating" teachers, I almost married one, but didn't because she couldn't get her financial house in order.  Not because she was underpaid, but just because she spent too much.  Getting out of that relationship, in retrospect, was one of the best decisions I ever made.

[beltim]

Interesting that there's so small a difference between median and mean. I guess it makes sense, though -if everyone's on a set scale there's little to no opportunity for significant skew. Thanks for finding that.

I'd still argue that teachers are underpaid, but that data doesn't give obvious support for significantly underpaid.

[MrsPete]

+1 for all that MoneyCat says.  Over and over again - what MoneyCat says.  If you think we are overpaid and under worked come do our job.  Follow me around for a day. Come to professional development meetings. Watch our morale tank as students run the school and parents make demands. And kids out there - find something else to do. Anything else.  At least you can go to the bathroom when you need to in some other field.

i think most here agree with you,  but we also know that there is a lot of crap in many many workplaces.  Think about it, most here are planning to FIRE.  There must be a reason why if we are not all teachers.... could it be that teachers do not have an extra crappy job, just  different type of problems?

I agree that teaching is a unique job that requires a specific personality type and, yes, the problems teachers face are different from those faced in other jobs.  What drives teachers absolutely nuts is that because we all went to school, "everyone" feels sure that he knows all about teachers jobs -- and feels qualified to criticize. 

I don't hate teaching -- not at all.  But I do hate the politics that come with it, including high-stakes testing; and I do hate the changes that the legislature has made in the last decade.  Changes that have hamstrung our administration, removed discipline from the schools, and held us accountable for things beyond our control.  The reality in NC is that our legislature wants to disband public school as it currently exists, and they want to replace it with charter schools and online learning (options which are less expensive than traditional public school, but also choices not suited to all students, especially low-ability students).  And I hate that any criticism towards their plan seems to be twisted into "Oh, the lazy teachers, they don't want to be held accountable for anything and can't face change." 

Perhaps you could make an argument for slightly underpaid.  But "dramatically?"  I don't think so.  Social workers, maybe, are dramatically underpaid.  Teachers are not.

I don't disagree about Social Workers, but let's see what the last Census has to say, and let's look at just my state so that we're not muddying the waters by talking about a wide range of salaries across the country:

The average North Carolinian earns 53,046
The average North Carolinian household brings home 73,034
The figures do not distinguish between college graduates and other workers, but I see that 26.8% of all North Carolinians have a Bachelor's degree (or higher). 
With more than two decades of teaching experience and two college degrees, I earn roughly 43K a year as a teacher.  Yes, it's unfair to use one person's salary as a measure, but I don't know how many years experience the average NC teacher has; however, since I'm near retirement, I should be nearer the top than the bottom.  A brand-new teacher earns around 30K.

Check the Census if you don't believe me.  Check the NC teacher salary scale.  The fact is that when compared to ALL workers -- college educated and not -- NC teachers are earning fairly significantly less than the average worker. 

As for work time, I work 200 days a year from late August - mid June.  That's 180 days with students and 20 work days and other required days (admittedly, the work days are more lax).  Officially I am in the building 7.5 hours a day, and I bring work home.

Compare that to my engineer husband:  He's been with the company for a long time, and he has 5 weeks of vacation plus 10 holidays each year (7 weeks off each year).  That means he's putting in 225 days of work each year.  He is officially in the office 8 hours a day, and he brings home work less often than I do; however, when he travels to a plant, he puts in Herculean hours and isn't rewarded for that extra effort. 

Do I work fewer hours?  Yes!  Is it a significant amount?  Not so significant as some might assume.  What IS significant is that ALL teachers -- first years and experienced teachers -- all work the same number of days, whereas my husband had to "work up to" the company maximum of 5 weeks vacation.  So a teacher is being rewarded with time off EARLIER than other workers.  And what appears to be significant is that my work day is officially over at 2:30 each day; however, people tend to overlook that I must clock in before 7:00, and I don't get a lunch break, so my day is more compact than a typical worker's.  What doesn't show is that I'm required to put in time after school for meetings, clubs, and sports events -- for me, that accounts for 3-6 hours per week beyond my work day (it varies widely from week to week). 

[nirvines88]

Find me another profession where if you have a Master's Degree, you earn $50,000 after ten years of service.  Go ahead, Mr. Smartypants.  And then try to live on that $50,000 in New York City or San Francisco.  Then tell me again how teachers are so overpaid.  Sometimes I want to walk into an engineer's or doctor's office and just start screaming at them about how they are overpaid losers and how they should all be fired just so I can show them how it feels to be a teacher every single day.

In New York a teacher with a masters and 10 years of experience would make a LOT more than that - they start at $45K for no experience, minimal education, and go up to just over 100K. http://schools.nyc.gov/TeachNYC/salary/default.htm

San Fran starts at about $45 and goes up to over $82K. http://www.sfusd.edu/en/assets/sfusd-staff/contract%20and%20salary%20schedules/Teachers%202012-2014%20salary%20schedule.pdf

That must be nice.  Here in North Carolina you can have your master's degree AND 10 years experience and still not crack 40k.  See pages 2 and 3 of the link below for the complete salary schedule.

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2013-14schedules.pdf   

On the bright side, if I can stick it out for 35 (!) years I'll make 57k (luckily I won't have to do that since I'm somewhat Mustachian).  Oh wait, that assumes the legislature actually honors the experience pay increase ladder, which they haven't for the last 6 years...despite it supposedly being a part of the contract we signed.

Maybe there is something to be said for unionization after all? (I can't believe I just said that)  NC is a right to work state unlike the states listed above.

BTW can we all agree salary averages are relatively useless?  I always think of the story of Michael Jordan being a geology major and skewing the average salary of geology majors (not that you can't make a good living a geology major!).

I was shocked to read that  Michael Jordan has a degree in Geology (a science).

I was also a bit skeptical.

So I looked it up.

He doesn't have a BS degree in Geology (a science) , he has a BA degree in "cultural geography" (not a science). 

Well, technically, he does have a BS degree, but it's not a Baccalaureate of Science, it's the bovine scatology kind of BS degree.

His diploma was up for sale early this year.

http://voices.suntimes.com/sports/michael-jordans-college-diploma-up-for-auction/

Knew it was geo-something; whoever told me that story said it was geology.  I don't think he graduated before going pro, I was just commenting on how his salary had a relatively big effect on skewing the "average" earnings of people that happened to be in same field.   Regardless of his major, my point remains the same.

[libertarian4321]

+1 for all that MoneyCat says.  Over and over again - what MoneyCat says.  If you think we are overpaid and under worked come do our job.  Follow me around for a day. Come to professional development meetings. Watch our morale tank as students run the school and parents make demands. And kids out there - find something else to do. Anything else.  At least you can go to the bathroom when you need to in some other field.

i think most here agree with you,  but we also know that there is a lot of crap in many many workplaces.  Think about it, most here are planning to FIRE.  There must be a reason why if we are not all teachers.... could it be that teachers do not have an extra crappy job, just  different type of problems?

I agree that teaching is a unique job that requires a specific personality type and, yes, the problems teachers face are different from those faced in other jobs.  What drives teachers absolutely nuts is that because we all went to school, "everyone" feels sure that he knows all about teachers jobs -- and feels qualified to criticize. 

I don't hate teaching -- not at all.  But I do hate the politics that come with it, including high-stakes testing; and I do hate the changes that the legislature has made in the last decade.  Changes that have hamstrung our administration, removed discipline from the schools, and held us accountable for things beyond our control.  The reality in NC is that our legislature wants to disband public school as it currently exists, and they want to replace it with charter schools and online learning (options which are less expensive than traditional public school, but also choices not suited to all students, especially low-ability students).  And I hate that any criticism towards their plan seems to be twisted into "Oh, the lazy teachers, they don't want to be held accountable for anything and can't face change." 

Perhaps you could make an argument for slightly underpaid.  But "dramatically?"  I don't think so.  Social workers, maybe, are dramatically underpaid.  Teachers are not.

I don't disagree about Social Workers, but let's see what the last Census has to say, and let's look at just my state so that we're not muddying the waters by talking about a wide range of salaries across the country:

The average North Carolinian earns 53,046
The average North Carolinian household brings home 73,034
The figures do not distinguish between college graduates and other workers, but I see that 26.8% of all North Carolinians have a Bachelor's degree (or higher). 
With more than two decades of teaching experience and two college degrees, I earn roughly 43K a year as a teacher.  Yes, it's unfair to use one person's salary as a measure, but I don't know how many years experience the average NC teacher has; however, since I'm near retirement, I should be nearer the top than the bottom.  A brand-new teacher earns around 30K.

Check the Census if you don't believe me.  Check the NC teacher salary scale.  The fact is that when compared to ALL workers -- college educated and not -- NC teachers are earning fairly significantly less than the average worker. 

As for work time, I work 200 days a year from late August - mid June.  That's 180 days with students and 20 work days and other required days (admittedly, the work days are more lax).  Officially I am in the building 7.5 hours a day, and I bring work home.

Compare that to my engineer husband:  He's been with the company for a long time, and he has 5 weeks of vacation plus 10 holidays each year (7 weeks off each year).  That means he's putting in 225 days of work each year.  He is officially in the office 8 hours a day, and he brings home work less often than I do; however, when he travels to a plant, he puts in Herculean hours and isn't rewarded for that extra effort. 

Do I work fewer hours?  Yes!  Is it a significant amount?  Not so significant as some might assume.  What IS significant is that ALL teachers -- first years and experienced teachers -- all work the same number of days, whereas my husband had to "work up to" the company maximum of 5 weeks vacation.  So a teacher is being rewarded with time off EARLIER than other workers.  And what appears to be significant is that my work day is officially over at 2:30 each day; however, people tend to overlook that I must clock in before 7:00, and I don't get a lunch break, so my day is more compact than a typical worker's.  What doesn't show is that I'm required to put in time after school for meetings, clubs, and sports events -- for me, that accounts for 3-6 hours per week beyond my work day (it varies widely from week to week).

Your husband is an engineer who works only 40 hours a week, gets 5 weeks of vacation?

He must either be a government employee or HOLY CRAP BATMAN! that is incredible, can you tell me where to send my resume?

I'm an engineer.  I refuse to work more than 40-hours per week.  But I'm surely not average (and I get paid far less than most because of it).  Most engineers I know, outside the government (who sit at their desks for a maximum of 40-hours, but work far less) work far more than 40-hours per week if they expect to progress in their career.

[snellbert]

It amazes me how low teaching salaries are in other places of the US...I live in Pittsburgh, PA, where the LOWEST starting fresh-out-of-school teacher makes at least 40-45k a year. It's not unusual for life-long teachers to make 80-90k a year coming up on retirement.

Then I hear about 10+ year teachers making 25k a year...boggles the mind.

[iris lily]

...On their first day of work, I suspect the teacher's union implants a chip in their brain that recite the "teachers are underpaid!" mantra at least once a day.

I work in a related field with related perceptions of "significant underpay." It make me crazy when someone mentions that "fact."

[vivophoenix]

you need to look at what the market will bear.
 I could say all day every day i think im underpaid, that doesnt make it true.

 you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one  say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?

how many jobs even offer pensions any more?

or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary?

i dont even think its fair to assume because you have a masters that you are obligated to be paid more.

I hate when people try to use education to justify deserving more money.

  thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.

yes I have a masters, but a masters in chemistry in Nashville, tn wasn't exactly rolling in the money.

[MoneyCat]

you need to look at what the market will bear.
 I could say all day every day i think im underpaid, that doesnt make it true.

 you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one  say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?

how many jobs even offer pensions any more?

or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary?

i dont even think its fair to assume because you have a masters that you are obligated to be paid more.

I hate when people try to use education to justify deserving more money.

  thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.

yes I have a masters, but a masters in chemistry in Nashville, tn wasn't exactly rolling in the money.

As I said before, teaching is a terrible job in terms of pay compared to workload.  I highly recommend everyone out there choose a different occupation if you live in the USA.  Public school teaching will not even exist anymore within the next decade or so with the way things are going.  Walmart and Bill Gates (among other "philanthropists") are converting public schools into low-wage charter schools or distance education, which will wipe out an entire segment of middle-class America and highly degrade the quality of education that children in the United States receive.  Americans do not value education.  Period.  I have a Master's Degree in Education, but my opinion means absolutely nothing to anybody who has any power.  So forget it.  If you want to help people, get a high-paying job in a more lucrative field and then meddle in education like all those businessmen out there.

Unfortunately, I chose education as a field when I was a young person without enough information on it.  I grew up without any role models and I have lived completely independently since I was 17 years old.  I cannot go back and change my entire field of study decades later (at least not in a cost prohibitive sense), so I am stuck with this job until I can find an escape.  A lot of teachers are in this position right now.

Everything I've said does not apply to the more civilized nations of the world, such as Canada and Western Europe, of course.

[libertarian4321]

you need to look at what the market will bear.
 I could say all day every day i think im underpaid, that doesnt make it true.

 you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one  say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?

how many jobs even offer pensions any more?

or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary?

i dont even think its fair to assume because you have a masters that you are obligated to be paid more.

I hate when people try to use education to justify deserving more money.

  thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.

yes I have a masters, but a masters in chemistry in Nashville, tn wasn't exactly rolling in the money.

As I said before, teaching is a terrible job in terms of pay compared to workload.  I highly recommend everyone out there choose a different occupation if you live in the USA.  Public school teaching will not even exist anymore within the next decade or so with the way things are going.  Walmart and Bill Gates (among other "philanthropists") are converting public schools into low-wage charter schools or distance education, which will wipe out an entire segment of middle-class America and highly degrade the quality of education that children in the United States receive.  Americans do not value education.  Period.  I have a Master's Degree in Education, but my opinion means absolutely nothing to anybody who has any power.  So forget it.  If you want to help people, get a high-paying job in a more lucrative field and then meddle in education like all those businessmen out there.

Unfortunately, I chose education as a field when I was a young person without enough information on it.  I grew up without any role models and I have lived completely independently since I was 17 years old.  I cannot go back and change my entire field of study decades later (at least not in a cost prohibitive sense), so I am stuck with this job until I can find an escape.  A lot of teachers are in this position right now.

Everything I've said does not apply to the more civilized nations of the world, such as Canada and Western Europe, of course.

Actually, US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe.  Far more than most.  The only European nations with higher average teacher salaries than the US are Luxembourg (which is a country in name only- it's the size of a medium sized US city) and Norway (which is floating in oil money).  Teachers in most of Europe make vastly less than their American counterparts.

http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf

And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.

[MoneyCat]

Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.

[Mod Edit: This is a ridiculous comment, adding nothing.  Leaving it, rather than censoring it, but take what you will of the speaker from it, and note that this sort of behavior is not something tolerated.  Rule number 1: don't be a jerk.  Thanks.

[solon]

Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.

You need to point out where the errors are. Otherwise you just look like a _______.

[MrsPete]

you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one  say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?

how many jobs even offer pensions any more?

or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary  . . .

  thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.

A comparison between college educated professionals in jobs similar to teaching is a fair comparison.  No other job is identical, of course. 

True, not many jobs offer pensions, but keep in mind that they're a double-edged sword:  They only make sense if you stay with the same employer for a lengthy time period, which means you're tied to a geographical area.  Also, our pensions aren't gifts on top of salary -- money is deducted every month, and it's invested on our behalf.  It's an investment, not a gift from the taxpayers.  Some pensioners will die young and will lose on the investment, while others will outlive their own contributions and will collect more than they paid in -- but most will pretty much break even. 

You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right?  And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays.  Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days. 

You say that teachers should've done more research before embarking in this career.  Thing is, the job has changed significantly in the last years.  When I started, it was a secure job with a low paycheck . . . but moderately good benefits, and the promise of a decent pension if you put in the years.  Now our current legislature has removed those positives, but they still want to keep the low paycheck.  We signed on for one deal, and it's changing fast.  This is not particularly unique -- technology and other faucets of society have changed other jobs too.

As I said before, teaching is a terrible job in terms of pay compared to workload.  I highly recommend everyone out there choose a different occupation if you live in the USA.  Public school teaching will not even exist anymore within the next decade or so with the way things are going.  Walmart and Bill Gates (among other "philanthropists") are converting public schools into low-wage charter schools or distance education, which will wipe out an entire segment of middle-class America and highly degrade the quality of education that children in the United States receive.

This is true.  In another generation, public school as we know it now is going to be all but gone, and the things that are pushing their way into society are going to be good for a few students . . . but very bad for the majority.  The writing is on the wall.   

[Zikoris]

You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right?  And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays.  Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days. 

You're a salaried employee, and get two months off in the summer as part of your contract. Yeah, that's paid vacation, regardless of how  your pay periods are structured (and many school districts have the option of 12 month pay).

[Polaria]

And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.

In Belgium, teachers are working about 180 days a year. Summer vacation is two-month long (July and August).

[nirvines88]

You do realize that summer vacation isn't a paid vacation, right?  And if you count the number of actual holidays during the school year, it's pretty close to other professional's holidays.  Many of the days kids are out of school are actually teacher work days. 

You're a salaried employee, and get two months off in the summer as part of your contract. Yeah, that's paid vacation, regardless of how  your pay periods are structured (and many school districts have the option of 12 month pay).

Actually, my contract runs for 10 months (mid-August to mid-June).  So yes, I do get 2 months of UNpaid vacation (which I am very grateful for).  During this time, as a young teacher, I get the benefit of doing UNpaid mandatory school trainings.  I also can and do work other jobs (tutoring, coaching, babysitting) during the summer, as I do during the school year.

BTW, for non-public employees, there are ~260 weekdays in a year.  Most private sector workers get the 10 legal bank holidays off, which leaves 250 days.  Starting private sector employees typically get a minimum of 2 weeks vacation, so that leaves 240 days of work over a 12 month work year, for an average of 20 days of work per month. 

For teachers here in NC there are 180 school days.  14 workdays.  10 days of professional development (although it is sometimes more, depending on where you stand in your licensure).  New teachers get 5 vacation days off (I've never used these since using a sub is often a nightmare!).   So that leaves 199 days of work over a 10 month contract, for an average of 19.9 days of work per month. 

"But teachers work get to go home early!"  While it's true some teachers hightail it out of school 15 minutes after the bell rings, most do not.  I can't speak for the experiences for all teachers, but most nights I spend 1-2 hours lesson planning or grading (and this is just to maintain - not to get ahead).  This is after I coach for 2 hours, year around (Yes, this is a CHOICE - I guess I'm a glutton for punishment).  I also coach the majority of Saturdays during the school year since we have meets.  This lucrative coaching gig nets me $500-$1000 a year, depending on the state budget.  During the school year this is my typical week: 11-12 hour workdays, coaching Saturdays, play catch up on Sundays.  I work anywhere between 55 and 70 hours a week.  The good teachers I associate with that are not coaches work 50+ hours a week.

I didn't get into teaching and coaching for the money, and you'll rarely hear me complain about it.  I love what I do.  As a Mustachian, even at my salary level, I'm thriving.  What truly irks me is the shit I hear from people who lack basic understanding of the facts.  I get so tired of hearing that most teachers are overpaid for shitty results.  Yes, there are shitty teachers out there, as there is in any profession.  However, there are a lot of good ones too, and these people are making a difference.  I get paid 38k a year and 93% of my senior students passed the advanced placement exam in my class.  I think that's a god damn bargain - I helped my students save more in college tuition than my total salary. 

[nirvines88]

To get back on topic:

A lot of teachers suck at money management as do people in other professions.  I am abhorred by the lack of financial literacy by my fellow teachers, just as I am in my peers of different professions.

Despite teaching history, I'm doing what I can to improve financial literacy for my students.  I have a short Powerpoint that I show my students covering all basic topics of money management that hopefully gets a few going in the right direction.  While a few students appear to be bored, some become quite interested when I tell them I'm going to teach them one way to become a millionaire (wow after just reading that last line I must sound like a sleazy late night TV ad).  Even if one person gets the message, it could wind up being a million dollar lecture*!

*Depending what the market returns in the future, of course 

[Zikoris]

Let me rephrase. Let's say you're a salaried employee, work year round, but for some reason you get paid your entire salary in January of every year in one lump sum. Would it be accurate to say that 11 months of the year are unpaid in this scenario? Most people would agree that that would be nonsense - for salaried employees, it's irrelevant what sort of structure you have as far as pay dates.

[Rezdent]

To get back on topic:

A lot of teachers suck at money management as do people in other professions.  I am abhorred by the lack of financial literacy by my fellow teachers, just as I am in my peers of different professions.

Despite teeaching history, I'm doing what I can to improve financial literacy for my students.  I have a short Powerpoint that I show my students covering all basic topics of money management that hopefully gets a few going in the right direction.  While a few students appear to be bored, some become quite interested when I tell them I'm going to teach them one way to become a millionaire (wow after just reading that last line I must sound like a sleazy late night TV ad).  Even if one person gets the message, it could wind up being a million dollar lecture*!

*Depending what the market returns in the future, of course

Thank you for this!
A substitute teacher had left over time at the end of an economics class last spring.
He took the opportunity to show the class that every teenager in the room had the ability to become a millionaire by putting $1000 in an IRA and allowing compound interest to work.
He also pointed out that each of them would have that much money but that only 1 or 2 of them would do it - the rest would spend it on cars and clothes and going out.

I have been teaching my DD this her whole life...but the light switched on for her with this lesson.
Imagine my happiness when she bounced into the house asking for help in choosing a Vanguard account.
Teachers are people - and not all of them got training in personal finance.
Props to you for spreading the word - you might not have been the sub in that class - but who knows?   You might have been the inspiration for them!

[beltim]

Let me rephrase. Let's say you're a salaried employee, work year round, but for some reason you get paid your entire salary in January of every year in one lump sum. Would it be accurate to say that 11 months of the year are unpaid in this scenario? Most people would agree that that would be nonsense - for salaried employees, it's irrelevant what sort of structure you have as far as pay dates.

Of course not, because in that case you're getting paid for 12 months of work.  To use an equally ridiculous example, say you work 1 month in a year and get paid for 1 months work.  Would it be accurate to say that you get paid for a year of work?  Of course not.

Teachers get paid for the number of days they work.  Many districts show equivalent hourly rates for annual salaries that you can examine (keep in mind that those hourly rates don't include any time spent working after school, at home, or for professional development – just like hourly rates for most non-teachers).

[vivophoenix]

so we can look at it as paid vacation or not. but that doesnt change the fact that there are 2 months you can increase your income. and for those who say but there are mandatory unpaid work shops in the summer. this wasnt a surprise.

[libertarian4321]

Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.

Well, I'm no teacher, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the process of obtaining 3 college degrees, I learned that an ad hominem attack is NOT a sufficient rebuttal to an argument.

God help the kids you teach if you can't come up with a better argument to support your position than "I don't like what you said, so you suck, nanny nanny boo boo!"

On second thought, forget the college degrees, I'm pretty sure my HS teachers taught me that.

Clearly, some teachers are more qualified than others...

[libertarian4321]

Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.

You need to point out where the errors are. Otherwise you just look like a _______.

Oops, I guess I should have read your response before posting.  You got it right.

I don't mind debating the "we are underpaid, we are underpaid" teacher.  But it has to be an intellectual debate that rises above what you'd expect from 8-year old children on a school playground.

Teacher said, in effect, "US teachers make less than European teachers."  I posted a rebuttal from a European teaching organization showing that, with rare exception, American teachers make not only more, but significantly more than European teachers (and, for the most part, work far less days).

So if Teacher wants to impress us, she should REBUT my evidence with something more than "You disagree with me.  I hate you.  You suck!"

I am an engineer.  I'm not an expert on teaching.  So it should be easy for someone "in the profession" to refute my "erroneous" statements if they are, in fact, erroneous.

So have at it, teach.  Show me where I'm wrong.

[nirvines88]

you need to look at what the market will bear.
 I could say all day every day i think im underpaid, that doesnt make it true.

 you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one  say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?

how many jobs even offer pensions any more?

or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary?

i dont even think its fair to assume because you have a masters that you are obligated to be paid more.

I hate when people try to use education to justify deserving more money.

  thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.

yes I have a masters, but a masters in chemistry in Nashville, tn wasn't exactly rolling in the money.

As I said before, teaching is a terrible job in terms of pay compared to workload.  I highly recommend everyone out there choose a different occupation if you live in the USA.  Public school teaching will not even exist anymore within the next decade or so with the way things are going.  Walmart and Bill Gates (among other "philanthropists") are converting public schools into low-wage charter schools or distance education, which will wipe out an entire segment of middle-class America and highly degrade the quality of education that children in the United States receive.  Americans do not value education.  Period.  I have a Master's Degree in Education, but my opinion means absolutely nothing to anybody who has any power.  So forget it.  If you want to help people, get a high-paying job in a more lucrative field and then meddle in education like all those businessmen out there.

Unfortunately, I chose education as a field when I was a young person without enough information on it.  I grew up without any role models and I have lived completely independently since I was 17 years old.  I cannot go back and change my entire field of study decades later (at least not in a cost prohibitive sense), so I am stuck with this job until I can find an escape.  A lot of teachers are in this position right now.

Everything I've said does not apply to the more civilized nations of the world, such as Canada and Western Europe, of course.

Actually, US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe.  Far more than most.  The only European nations with higher average teacher salaries than the US are Luxembourg (which is a country in name only- it's the size of a medium sized US city) and Norway (which is floating in oil money).  Teachers in most of Europe make vastly less than their American counterparts.

http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf

And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.

Practically any professional job makes more in the U.S. than in Europe.  On average, engineers make way more in the U.S than in European countries.  Same story with doctors.  I didn't think anyone would be surprised U.S. teachers, engineers, doctors, and most other professions make more than those in the same position in other countries...we happen to be the country with the largest economy in the world, after all.  The fact that we have such huge tax revenues and our leaders can't manage it properly is pathetic.   

I was a bit skeptical of your claim about European teachers not having a summer break and working more in the classroom.  So I googled it and found this interesting link below.  It shows that the majority of European countries have 2 months or more off for summer, and some have even more time off (e.g. "Autumn break") during the school year. Most countries have approximately 180 days, the same as in the U.S. although some have a few more days and some have quite a few less (time to move to Lithuania?!).  http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/school_calendar_EN.pdf

[beltim]

Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.

You need to point out where the errors are. Otherwise you just look like a _______.

Oops, I guess I should have read your response before posting.  You got it right.

I don't mind debating the "we are underpaid, we are underpaid" teacher.  But it has to be an intellectual debate that rises above what you'd expect from 8-year old children on a school playground.

Teacher said, in effect, "US teachers make less than European teachers."  I posted a rebuttal from a European teaching organization showing that, with rare exception, American teachers make not only more, but significantly more than European teachers (and, for the most part, work far less days).

So if Teacher wants to impress us, she should REBUT my evidence with something more than "You disagree with me.  I hate you.  You suck!"

I am an engineer.  I'm not an expert on teaching.  So it should be easy for someone "in the profession" to refute my "erroneous" statements if they are, in fact, erroneous.

So have at it, teach.  Show me where I'm wrong.

Did you read your link?  From earlier in the thread, the average teacher makes $55k.  Here are some countries in Europe with higher average teacher salaries, according to your own link: Belgium (where upper secondary teachers average $72k), Denmark ($85k), Germany (no average, but the minimum is higher than the US average), Luxembourg, Austria, Finland, Norway.  The reason is looks like you don't know what you're talking about is that the data you used to support that "US teachers make more than almost all teachers in Europe " in fact shows noting of the sort! You missed at least 5 countries with higher average teacher salaries than the US, including the most populous one!

[Paul der Krake]

The average North Carolinian earns 53,046
The average North Carolinian household brings home 73,034

Which source did you use for these numbers? I am seeing less than 50k for the median NC household income from a few websites.

http://www.usa.com/north-carolina-state-income-and-careers.htm

Your husband is an engineer who works only 40 hours a week, gets 5 weeks of vacation?

He must either be a government employee or HOLY CRAP BATMAN! that is incredible, can you tell me where to send my resume?

I just started a new software job in the Triangle, I get 20 days with just two years of real work experience, plus every Federal Reserve holiday. Every guy in the rank above gets 25 days.

[Mr Mark]

Well, come on now.  I'm a teacher, so I know the pay isn't great, but it isn't hard to save up money to cover expenses for the Summer if you brown bag your lunch everyday, ride your bicycle to work, shop at wholesale clubs and thrift shops instead of retail shopping, etc.

not exactly the average american tho'!

And they would laugh at your idea it's either easy or even desirable. But let's go to Starbucks! ;-)

[libertarian4321]

Like all libertarians, you don't know what you are talking about.

You need to point out where the errors are. Otherwise you just look like a _______.

Oops, I guess I should have read your response before posting.  You got it right.

I don't mind debating the "we are underpaid, we are underpaid" teacher.  But it has to be an intellectual debate that rises above what you'd expect from 8-year old children on a school playground.

Teacher said, in effect, "US teachers make less than European teachers."  I posted a rebuttal from a European teaching organization showing that, with rare exception, American teachers make not only more, but significantly more than European teachers (and, for the most part, work far less days).

So if Teacher wants to impress us, she should REBUT my evidence with something more than "You disagree with me.  I hate you.  You suck!"

I am an engineer.  I'm not an expert on teaching.  So it should be easy for someone "in the profession" to refute my "erroneous" statements if they are, in fact, erroneous.

So have at it, teach.  Show me where I'm wrong.

Did you read your link?  From earlier in the thread, the average teacher makes $55k.  Here are some countries in Europe with higher average teacher salaries, according to your own link: Belgium (where upper secondary teachers average $72k), Denmark ($85k), Germany (no average, but the minimum is higher than the US average), Luxembourg, Austria, Finland, Norway.  The reason is looks like you don't know what you're talking about is that the data you used to support that "US teachers make more than almost all teachers in Europe " in fact shows noting of the sort! You missed at least 5 countries with higher average teacher salaries than the US, including the most populous one!

Belgium only posted averages for certain positions in certain parts of the country, so it's impossible to tell what the average for all teachers in all parts of the country is.  If you CHERRY PICK only the salaries in the Flemish region (generally, the wealthiest, most urban, and highest paid) of upper secondary teachers ONLY (those below secondary make less, on average than US teachers), those Upper secondary teachers in the Flemish region ONLY make more on average than the average US teacher.  That does NOT, however, mean that the average Belgian teacher makes more than the average US teacher.

Austria also included very incomplete data, so I could not make a determination (nor can you).

For Finland, the numbers varied widely.  Secondary teachers made FAR more than primary teachers.  However, it is logical to assume that there will be at least as many teachers, and students, in primary school as secondary (probably more).  Hence, I did an average.  Using an average, the Finish teachers made slightly less than American teachers.  I don't know how anyone could take those numbers and project that Finnish teachers are far better paid than American teachers (as the OP implied).

You got me on Denmark.  I missed that one.

Okay, so in Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway, teachers make more than in the USA.  Hell, I'll even stipulate that they make more in Austria, Belgium, and Finland (though there is not enough evidence to really show that.

Those 5 SMALL countries have a combined population of about 36 million.  A bit more than half of the population of Italy alone (where teachers make FAR less than in the USA).  The data are incomplete on a number of European nations, including a couple of large ones.  But the data that is available clearly suggests that teachers in MOST European nations make LESS than in the USA (and many make far less), and even if the few where they make more, it's just a tiny bit more (with the exception of tiny nations like Luxembourg, Norway, and Denmark).

That is NOT convincing evidence that Europeans "value teachers" and pay significantly more to their teachers, as the OP haughtily implied.

[libertarian4321]

To get back on topic:

A lot of teachers suck at money management as do people in other professions.  I am abhorred by the lack of financial literacy by my fellow teachers, just as I am in my peers of different professions.

Despite teaching history, I'm doing what I can to improve financial literacy for my students.  I have a short Powerpoint that I show my students covering all basic topics of money management that hopefully gets a few going in the right direction.  While a few students appear to be bored, some become quite interested when I tell them I'm going to teach them one way to become a millionaire (wow after just reading that last line I must sound like a sleazy late night TV ad).  Even if one person gets the message, it could wind up being a million dollar lecture*!

Sounds great.  If schools won't make basic financial literacy a required class, then you are doing your students a great service in slipping a little financial sense into your history classes.

[libertarian4321]

you need to look at what the market will bear.
 I could say all day every day i think im underpaid, that doesnt make it true.

 you are only grossly underpaid if you can statistically point out that you peers are making more money. how can one  say that an entire filed is underpaid, based off of what?

how many jobs even offer pensions any more?

or paid vacations and sick days? when tallying those summer vacations and spring breaks, should we be adding the cost of those to salary?

i dont even think its fair to assume because you have a masters that you are obligated to be paid more.

I hate when people try to use education to justify deserving more money.

  thats why you should do a little research before choosing a career, and maybe even move to a new city to maximize your income. I moved from nashville, to boston. and almost tripled my income.

yes I have a masters, but a masters in chemistry in Nashville, tn wasn't exactly rolling in the money.

As I said before, teaching is a terrible job in terms of pay compared to workload.  I highly recommend everyone out there choose a different occupation if you live in the USA.  Public school teaching will not even exist anymore within the next decade or so with the way things are going.  Walmart and Bill Gates (among other "philanthropists") are converting public schools into low-wage charter schools or distance education, which will wipe out an entire segment of middle-class America and highly degrade the quality of education that children in the United States receive.  Americans do not value education.  Period.  I have a Master's Degree in Education, but my opinion means absolutely nothing to anybody who has any power.  So forget it.  If you want to help people, get a high-paying job in a more lucrative field and then meddle in education like all those businessmen out there.

Unfortunately, I chose education as a field when I was a young person without enough information on it.  I grew up without any role models and I have lived completely independently since I was 17 years old.  I cannot go back and change my entire field of study decades later (at least not in a cost prohibitive sense), so I am stuck with this job until I can find an escape.  A lot of teachers are in this position right now.

Everything I've said does not apply to the more civilized nations of the world, such as Canada and Western Europe, of course.

Actually, US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe.  Far more than most.  The only European nations with higher average teacher salaries than the US are Luxembourg (which is a country in name only- it's the size of a medium sized US city) and Norway (which is floating in oil money).  Teachers in most of Europe make vastly less than their American counterparts.

http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf

And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.

Practically any professional job makes more in the U.S. than in Europe.  On average, engineers make way more in the U.S than in European countries.  Same story with doctors.  I didn't think anyone would be surprised U.S. teachers, engineers, doctors, and most other professions make more than those in the same position in other countries...we happen to be the country with the largest economy in the world, after all.  The fact that we have such huge tax revenues and our leaders can't manage it properly is pathetic.   

Yes, most jobs in the US pay more than in most European countries (though there are exceptions in tiny, very wealthy countries like Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway). 

What got me going was the comment by the "underpaid" US teacher that somehow Europeans were heaping riches upon their teachers because they value education more than the US, and that just is not true.   On average, teachers in Europe, even in the wealthier nations, make similar, or slightly lower, wages than what their counterparts make in the USA.  It's not like teachers in Italy, France, Spain, the UK, or Germany are raking in big bucks while their poor, underpaid American counterparts are living hand to mouth on their "underpaid" 56-58k per year average salary.

I'll go back to my original point.  I never claimed American teachers were getting rich.  But their incessant claims of being woefully underpaid compared to similarly educated professionals in other fields just aren't true.  They make slightly less than average similarly educated professionals in the USA (slightly less, not A LOT less).  They make at least comparable wages to what they'd make in most other nations.

I think teachers look at doctors, lawyers, scientists, MBAs, and engineers, see that they are paid less, then go into the "we are woefully underpaid" mantra.  They don't consider at the fact that those folks are, on average, better educated (and took far more rigorous curricula), and work more days and longer hours.  They just see that SOME professionals make more than they do, then start screaming "underpaid! underpaid!"  They don't even consider social workers, musicians, and many other degreed professionals that make far less on average than they do.  You'll never see a teacher look at a bunch of social workers or musicians in the symphony (who typically have similar education levels, but far lower salaries) and claim "we are overpaid!" :)

Teacher's ain't getting rich, but they for damned sure aren't starving.  Just tone down the "woe is me, we are soooooo underpaid" rhetoric once in a while.

[beltim]

Did you read your link?  From earlier in the thread, the average teacher makes $55k.  Here are some countries in Europe with higher average teacher salaries, according to your own link: Belgium (where upper secondary teachers average $72k), Denmark ($85k), Germany (no average, but the minimum is higher than the US average), Luxembourg, Austria, Finland, Norway.  The reason is looks like you don't know what you're talking about is that the data you used to support that "US teachers make more than almost all teachers in Europe " in fact shows noting of the sort! You missed at least 5 countries with higher average teacher salaries than the US, including the most populous one!

Belgium only posted averages for certain positions in certain parts of the country, so it's impossible to tell what the average for all teachers in all parts of the country is.  If you CHERRY PICK only the salaries in the Flemish region (generally, the wealthiest, most urban, and highest paid) of upper secondary teachers ONLY (those below secondary make less, on average than US teachers), those Upper secondary teachers in the Flemish region ONLY make more on average than the average US teacher.  That does NOT, however, mean that the average Belgian teacher makes more than the average US teacher.

Austria also included very incomplete data, so I could not make a determination (nor can you).

For Finland, the numbers varied widely.  Secondary teachers made FAR more than primary teachers.  However, it is logical to assume that there will be at least as many teachers, and students, in primary school as secondary (probably more).  Hence, I did an average.  Using an average, the Finish teachers made slightly less than American teachers.  I don't know how anyone could take those numbers and project that Finnish teachers are far better paid than American teachers (as the OP implied).

You got me on Denmark.  I missed that one.

Okay, so in Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway, teachers make more than in the USA.  Hell, I'll even stipulate that they make more in Austria, Belgium, and Finland (though there is not enough evidence to really show that.

Those 5 SMALL countries have a combined population of about 36 million.  A bit more than half of the population of Italy alone (where teachers make FAR less than in the USA).  The data are incomplete on a number of European nations, including a couple of large ones.  But the data that is available clearly suggests that teachers in MOST European nations make LESS than in the USA (and many make far less), and even if the few where they make more, it's just a tiny bit more (with the exception of tiny nations like Luxembourg, Norway, and Denmark).

That is NOT convincing evidence that Europeans "value teachers" and pay significantly more to their teachers, as the OP haughtily implied.

What you said:

Actually, US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe.  Far more than most.  The only European nations with higher average teacher salaries than the US are Luxembourg (which is a country in name only- it's the size of a medium sized US city) and Norway (which is floating in oil money).  Teachers in most of Europe make vastly less than their American counterparts.

http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf

And, of course, those European teachers spend far more days in the classroom than US teachers, as the US "summer vacation" doesn't exist in most (all?) European nations.

I'm not responsible for you providing evidence that is insufficient to justify your conclusion.  You're making statements without sufficient evidence.  If the data isn't of sufficient quality, then you shouldn't have tried to use it to prove your point – which, again, was that:
 

US teachers make more, on average, than almost all teachers in Europe.  Far more than most.

[vivophoenix]

this whole argument went straw man many posts ago.

 you cant go overseas and say look they make soooo much more money than we do, so we should make sooo much more as well.
 do they also pay more for groceries? are taxes higher? are there fewer teachers? more students? what does inflation look like? is there a pension plans?

the fact that one field pays more or less than another field is called capitalism. if you dont like it, dont show up for work.

this original post about teachers having to take out loans is very unfortunate. however there are are other far more marginalized groups of people who make much less who handle their money much better.  so its very difficult to pity teachers and much easier to wonder why they insist on living from pay check to paycheck, regardless of how 'little' they make.