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Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: dude on March 31, 2015, 06:38:55 AM

Title: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: dude on March 31, 2015, 06:38:55 AM
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/student-loan-recipients-repayment-strike-face-default-040203777--finance.html

Egads.  I mean, hell, I get that a lot about our for-profit education system is f'ed up, but where's the personal responsibility?  Such an entitlement mentality at work here.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: CaveDweller on March 31, 2015, 07:31:45 AM
Yeah, I hear you about personal responsibility. But realistically a lot of 18-year olds aren't going to be able to tell the difference between the glossy brochure of a decent college and the equally glossy one for a totally bullshit worthless one. Sucks to only find out your education is worthless after you're $80K in debt and can't find a job. I'd be pissed too.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: vivophoenix on March 31, 2015, 07:39:52 AM
i think there was a thread for this already.

but i think also one of the provisions is that this money can not be used for fraud.

personal responsibility is part of the argument, but what about the responsibility a society has to make sure that while providing an opportunity for higher education, it also make certain that people aren't taken advantage of.

people are quick to say "hey you said you would pay this money back". but these schools offered people a dream and, for many, what they thought was an avenue out of their current circumstances.

so what about the personal responsibility of the school? we give businesses the advantages of people-hood, why not the moral responsibility?
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: taekvideo on April 01, 2015, 09:50:06 PM
i think there was a thread for this already.

but i think also one of the provisions is that this money can not be used for fraud.

personal responsibility is part of the argument, but what about the responsibility a society has to make sure that while providing an opportunity for higher education, it also make certain that people aren't taken advantage of.

people are quick to say "hey you said you would pay this money back". but these schools offered people a dream and, for many, what they thought was an avenue out of their current circumstances.

so what about the personal responsibility of the school? we give businesses the advantages of people-hood, why not the moral responsibility?

Yeah they apparently used false advertising / fabricated data / altered records in order to recruit people to their worthless overpriced colleges.
So those students were scammed out of ~$100k... it's no surprise they're pissed and don't want to pay.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: EricL on April 02, 2015, 09:06:20 AM
If you get into a good college and get a crap degree, the onus is on you and you should pay.   But if you go to a fraudulent college for a crap degree, it may be your personal responsibility NOT to pay.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: jmusic on April 02, 2015, 12:29:56 PM
If you get into a good college and get a crap degree, the onus is on you and you should pay.   But if you go to a fraudulent college for a crap degree, it may be your personal responsibility NOT to pay.

Ah, but once you reach this point (getting the crap degree) you've ALREADY paid the college, and are now having to repay the BANK. 
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: GetItRight on April 02, 2015, 12:38:00 PM
If you get into a good college and get a crap degree, the onus is on you and you should pay.   But if you go to a fraudulent college for a crap degree, it may be your personal responsibility NOT to pay.

Ah, but once you reach this point (getting the crap degree) you've ALREADY paid the college, and are now having to repay the BANK.

Thanks for pointing this out. The bank is an innocent party in this. The only reason they make those huge loans is the absurd special rules of the game the government sets up. It it wasn't for government policy regarding college and student loans the schools wouldn't charge nearly as much and the banks wouldn't lend nearly as much so there would never be massive mortgage sized debt backed by nothing and handed out like candy.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: RFAAOATB on April 02, 2015, 12:43:27 PM
Thanks for pointing this out. The bank is an innocent party in this. The only reason they make those huge loans is the absurd special rules of the game the government sets up. It it wasn't for government policy regarding college and student loans the schools wouldn't charge nearly as much and the banks wouldn't lend nearly as much so there would never be massive mortgage sized debt backed by nothing and handed out like candy.

The only way the banks would be innocent is if they were legally required to accept the loan terms.  If they had the ability to refuse the loan then they took on as much risk as the students seeking the loans.  While people should not take out loans to go to scam schools, banks should have enough foresight to not give out loans to scam schools without accepting a higher risk of nonpayment.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: MayDay on April 02, 2015, 12:47:20 PM
Thanks for pointing this out. The bank is an innocent party in this. The only reason they make those huge loans is the absurd special rules of the game the government sets up. It it wasn't for government policy regarding college and student loans the schools wouldn't charge nearly as much and the banks wouldn't lend nearly as much so there would never be massive mortgage sized debt backed by nothing and handed out like candy.

The only way the banks would be innocent is if they were legally required to accept the loan terms.  If they had the ability to refuse the loan then they took on as much risk as the students seeking the loans.  While people should not take out loans to go to scam schools, banks should have enough foresight to not give out loans to scam schools without accepting a higher risk of nonpayment.

Like times a million! 

Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: GetItRight on April 02, 2015, 01:03:27 PM
The only way the banks would be innocent is if they were legally required to accept the loan terms.  If they had the ability to refuse the loan then they took on as much risk as the students seeking the loans.  While people should not take out loans to go to scam schools, banks should have enough foresight to not give out loans to scam schools without accepting a higher risk of nonpayment.

I think you missed the point. The whole system is perverted by government policy. The banks are playing by the perverse rules of the system government has set up. They either go along as make the loans or get left behind and maybe go out of business or at the least lose out of a tremendous amount of money, two crappy choices. The banks making these loans and the schools charging exorbitant prices is a result of government guaranteeing the debt and ensuring it will never be discharged in bankruptcy. The government created this problem, schools and banks just did what they have always done, maximize compensation to their higher level employees and maximize profits. Can't fault them too much for that, they don't make the rules.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: dude on April 03, 2015, 07:00:34 AM
The only way the banks would be innocent is if they were legally required to accept the loan terms.  If they had the ability to refuse the loan then they took on as much risk as the students seeking the loans.  While people should not take out loans to go to scam schools, banks should have enough foresight to not give out loans to scam schools without accepting a higher risk of nonpayment.

I think you missed the point. The whole system is perverted by government policy. The banks are playing by the perverse rules of the system government has set up. They either go along as make the loans or get left behind and maybe go out of business or at the least lose out of a tremendous amount of money, two crappy choices. The banks making these loans and the schools charging exorbitant prices is a result of government guaranteeing the debt and ensuring it will never be discharged in bankruptcy. The government created this problem, schools and banks just did what they have always done, maximize compensation to their higher level employees and maximize profits. Can't fault them too much for that, they don't make the rules.

Well, that's sorta true -- but those laws are in place because their lobbyists push hard for them.  Whenever anyone suggests making student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy, the Big Banks roll out the Lobbying Machine big-time.

But I still put the onus on the borrower.  If you can't figure out that the fly-by-night college you're paying Ivy League tuition to attend isn't worth the money, then you probably shouldn't be in college.  But your stupidity should not be my (the taxpayer's) liability.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: MandalayVA on April 03, 2015, 07:21:05 AM
But I still put the onus on the borrower.  If you can't figure out that the fly-by-night college you're paying Ivy League tuition to attend isn't worth the money, then you probably shouldn't be in college.  But your stupidity should not be my (the taxpayer's) liability.

Particularly since the article focused on a woman in her thirties who should have known better.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: EricL on April 03, 2015, 08:39:21 AM
"Innocent banks"?  I'm not sure I've ever seen one in my lifetime.  Okay, so the woman is an idiot.  But she fell for society's current lie a college education automatically equals a higher income and bought the shiny brochure promise this particular college offered. Caveat emptor, life isn't fair, and all that.  But that highway goes both ways.  If she really wants to put on her badass pants she'll sell or give away everything she owns, live on the streets and declare bankruptcy.  Caveat emptor (in the case of a bank selecting loan applicants), life isn't fair, too bad/so sad. 
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Sofa King on April 03, 2015, 09:04:36 AM
Zero sympathy for these crybabies.  Ignorance is no excuse.  These idiots agreed to the terms and signed on the dotted line. Pay up or they will eventually be taking it out of your Social Security and any tax refunds you may have gotten. Go to a college you can afford. They get what they have coming 100% each and every one of them.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Kaspian on April 03, 2015, 10:24:42 AM
Zero sympathy for these crybabies.  Ignorance is no excuse.  These idiots agreed to the terms and signed on the dotted line. Pay up or they will eventually be taking it out of your Social Security and any tax refunds you may have gotten. Go to a college you can afford. They get what they have coming 100% each and every one of them.

Harshly put, but I agree 100%.  For a bunch of educated people how hard is the concept of an agreement?  Borrowing is easy.  Paying it back?  Nobody "likes" to pay back a loan.  That's the hard suckass part.  Not majoring in math is no excuse.  Borrowing and then not wanting to pay back (or finding valid-in-one's-own-mind reasons not to) has been happening since humans could talk to each other.  Probably even earlier--back when caveman Grog "borrowed" caveman Tull's flint to make a fire.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: RFAAOATB on April 03, 2015, 10:27:14 AM
Zero sympathy for these crybabies.  Ignorance is no excuse.  These idiots agreed to the terms and signed on the dotted line. Pay up or they will eventually be taking it out of your Social Security and any tax refunds you may have gotten. Go to a college you can afford. They get what they have coming 100% each and every one of them.

The fact that they are idiots is why they should have sympathy.  I would have higher expectations on the collaborative intelligence of banks and businesses then the collective intelligence of those who are led to believe for profit colleges are a good idea.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: handsnhearts on April 03, 2015, 10:45:20 AM
"Innocent banks"?  I'm not sure I've ever seen one in my lifetime.  Okay, so the woman is an idiot.  But she fell for society's current lie a college education automatically equals a higher income and bought the shiny brochure promise this particular college offered. Caveat emptor, life isn't fair, and all that.  But that highway goes both ways.  If she really wants to put on her badass pants she'll sell or give away everything she owns, live on the streets and declare bankruptcy.  Caveat emptor (in the case of a bank selecting loan applicants), life isn't fair, too bad/so sad.

student loans don't go away in bankruptcy...
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Jack on April 03, 2015, 11:29:41 AM
If you can't figure out that the fly-by-night college you're paying Ivy League tuition to attend isn't worth the money, then you probably shouldn't be in college.

If you've grown up in the US within the last generation or so, you've almost certainly been indoctrinated from birth to believe "YOU MUST GO TO COLLEGE OR YOU WILL FAIL AT LIFE." Your parents tell you that (even if they themselves aren't college-educated). Your teachers tell you that. Your high-school guidance counselor tells you that. The government tells you that. Banks tell you that. Slick ads for bullshit scam schools tell you that. And nobody's telling you otherwise (because even companies looking for non-college-educated skilled workers still probably want you to go to trade school, at least).

We've already established these people to be idiots (since they can't tell a shitty school from a good one). How the fuck can you expect an idiot to be smart enough to realize that every authority figure in his entire live has been lying to him?! You're damn right that idiots shouldn't go to college, but they're being actively prevented from knowing that.

student loans don't go away in bankruptcy...

This is the crux of the issue, and it has several effects:
We also have to consider the macroeconomic effects of the situation. The fact is, Americans are now expected to compete globally. Just about everywhere else in the world college is either drastically cheaper or completely free for the student, which means that once they graduate their earnings can buy real goods rather than lining the pockets of middlemen. (And if you think paying middlemen for unnecessary BS is somehow a good thing, go read up on the "broken window fallacy.") Also, just about everywhere else in the world doesn't make college available to idiots, which means they don't waste their time and money on it. (Yes: at this point, making college less available is also an advantage.)

US government policy to encourage and back all these student loans is having the direct effect of sabotaging America's economic competitiveness, and all we're getting out of the deal is the unjust enrichment of fraudsters and middlemen (bankers, college administrators, and lobbyists).
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Kaspian on April 03, 2015, 11:43:11 AM
So WTF is the solution?  As we speak, as we write this, as articles such as the above are printed, at this exact second some numbnuts is excitedly signing up for a massive student loan for a degree in liberal arts.  They may even be socially aware of the problems people with student loans are currently facing but is that going to stand in the way of him/her and an instant $50K?  Hell, no!  We need a Mustachian to stand right in front of the line for loan applications saying, "Hey waitaminute, dumbass--come here a sec..."   Even then they'd probably submit it anyway.  I'm not saying it's a lost cause, but have you ever seen a student about to get their loan?!  They look like a 5-year old at Christmas.  :(
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Sofa King on April 03, 2015, 11:55:16 AM
So WTF is the solution? 

Go to a college you can afford and get a marketable degree. Not something in Political Science or 18th Century French Literature.  My niece graduates in 2 months at a college that costs $57,000 per year and her major is Political Science. Her mother said she wants her daughter to get the "college experience" well now she will also be getting the "being broke forever" experience.   LOL!!!!  It will be interesting to watch from the sidelines as she tries to pay this loan back FOREVER.  At Thanksgiving each year I will enjoy asking "innocently" how's the job hunt and paying back your school loan going?  I don't know if my sister co-signed any of the school loans but if she did that will make things even more interesting for Thanksgiving dinners each year!! Her loan payment will be about $2GRAND a month!!!   
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: RexualChocolate on April 03, 2015, 11:56:20 AM

Well, that's sorta true -- but those laws are in place because their lobbyists push hard for them.  Whenever anyone suggests making student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy, the Big Banks roll out the Lobbying Machine big-time.

But I still put the onus on the borrower.  If you can't figure out that the fly-by-night college you're paying Ivy League tuition to attend isn't worth the money, then you probably shouldn't be in college.  But your stupidity should not be my (the taxpayer's) liability.

Who do you think owns almost every single student loan now?

Hint: Its not big banks. Its not any company.

Lot of misinformation here. Corporations are like water, they just follow the path of least resistance to profit. Its the governments job to align incentives correctly.

If you want to talk about equitability, the loans are not priced fairly. They should be 15+% interest. The default rate is in the double digits. Anyone with a student loan is already getting subsidized.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Blonde Lawyer on April 03, 2015, 12:11:37 PM
Have they tried suing the school for fraud/misrepresentation and demanding refunds? That seems to make a lot more sense than refusing to pay back your loans.  However, once we start talking consumer fraud, the AG usually gets involved.  Maybe to get his/her attention they had to hurt the gov't loan holder first.  I don't think it's a smart path but if gets the attention of people that can make a difference than maybe it wasn't the dumbest idea.

Also, student loans can be discharged in bankruptcy in some very rare circumstances that show extreme hardship beyond just what every student faces.  You need more than insolvency.  Their stories could rise to that level.  Here is an article on it.  http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/student-loan-ranger/2014/08/13/debunking-the-student-loan-bankruptcy-myth
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Jack on April 03, 2015, 12:31:11 PM
So WTF is the solution?

At the very least, the government should stop guaranteeing loans for colleges that lack regional accreditation.

A better plan would be for the government to stop guaranteeing loans at all and allow them to be discharged through bankruptcy. This will very quickly destroy the entire student loan industry, which would force colleges to price themselves reasonably and force states to restore funding to their public university system.

The macroeconomically-optimal plan would be for the government to do the things in the previous paragraph and offer free [i.e., taxpayer-paid] tuition to anyone who is competent, attends a regionally-accredited school, and majors in something useful.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Sofa King on April 03, 2015, 12:49:36 PM
So WTF is the solution?


A better plan would be for the government to stop guaranteeing loans at all and allow them to be discharged through bankruptcy.



Then many would go to the best school they can get into with the intention of just filing for bankruptcy when they get out. There is nothing to repossess with a college degree like there would be with a house or car loan. 
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Jack on April 03, 2015, 12:56:35 PM
So WTF is the solution?


A better plan would be for the government to stop guaranteeing loans at all and allow them to be discharged through bankruptcy.



Then many would go to the best school they can get into with the intention of just filing for bankruptcy when they get out. There is nothing to repossess with a college degree like there would be with a house or car loan.

Exactly, and lenders will realize that and either quit lending or go bankrupt (a win-win either way).
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: CheapskateWife on April 03, 2015, 01:26:28 PM
I have empathy for their plight, and understand that it must be difficult to deal with their situation, but sometimes we have to just deal with our "lemons". 

These are two separate contracts:

a)  Student pays College for education - this contract was violated by the College

b) Student borrows money from Bank for promise of greater returns - the student refuses to pay and violates contract b) because contract a) was violated by 3rd party

They are really unrelated contracts, and the banks should legally have a field day enforcing payment. 
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Sofa King on April 03, 2015, 01:33:10 PM
So WTF is the solution?


A better plan would be for the government to stop guaranteeing loans at all and allow them to be discharged through bankruptcy.



Then many would go to the best school they can get into with the intention of just filing for bankruptcy when they get out. There is nothing to repossess with a college degree like there would be with a house or car loan.

Exactly, and lenders will realize that and either quit lending or go bankrupt (a win-win either way).
  Because they realize it this is why it would never happen.   If all of the sudden now college loans can be forgiven in bankruptcy what about all the people who worked 3 jobs for years and payed their loans back? "oh well sorry fella you were a sucker and actually were responsible" yea that would be fair!!!  How about people start learning personal accountability and be aware of the loan terms  they are agreeing to?   
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: RFAAOATB on April 03, 2015, 01:42:41 PM
Because they realize it this is why it would never happen.   If all of the sudden now college loans can be forgiven in bankruptcy what about all the people who worked 3 jobs for years and payed their loans back? "oh well sorry fella you were a sucker and actually were responsible" yea that would be fair!!!  How about people start learning personal accountability and be aware of the loan terms  they are agreeing to?   

Isn't the seven years of bad credit sufficient punishment for bankruptcy as well as a warning to other creditors not to do business with them?  Seven years before you can get a decent rate on a car loan or a mortgage is an acceptable risk outcome.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Sofa King on April 03, 2015, 01:47:15 PM

Because they realize it this is why it would never happen.   If all of the sudden now college loans can be forgiven in bankruptcy what about all the people who worked 3 jobs for years and payed their loans back? "oh well sorry fella you were a sucker and actually were responsible" yea that would be fair!!!  How about people start learning personal accountability and be aware of the loan terms  they are agreeing to?   

Isn't the seven years of bad credit sufficient punishment for bankruptcy as well as a warning to other creditors not to do business with them?  Seven years before you can get a decent rate on a car loan or a mortgage is an acceptable risk outcome.
[/quote]

What about the guy who honored the terms he agreed to and just finished  paying off $100,000 of college debt by working 3 jobs for 10 years. Would that be fair to him?
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: RFAAOATB on April 03, 2015, 02:09:29 PM
What about the guy who honored the terms he agreed to and just finished  paying off $100,000 of college debt by working 3 jobs for 10 years. Would that be fair to him?

He has proved his trustworthiness and shall have no problem obtaining the near historic low interest rate for mortgages and vehicles.  Meanwhile the guy who lost a bet on college loans and declared bankruptcy will spend the better part of a decade in ghetto apartments and high interest rust-buckets for his transgression.  Virtue will be rewarded with a clearer path to home ownership.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Sofa King on April 03, 2015, 02:32:39 PM
What about the guy who honored the terms he agreed to and just finished  paying off $100,000 of college debt by working 3 jobs for 10 years. Would that be fair to him?

He has proved his trustworthiness and shall have no problem obtaining the near historic low interest rate for mortgages and vehicles.  Meanwhile the guy who lost a bet on college loans and declared bankruptcy will spend the better part of a decade in ghetto apartments and high interest rust-buckets for his transgression.  Virtue will be rewarded with a clearer path to home ownership.

Why can't these losers do what the guy who worked 3 jobs did to pay his college loan back?  Why would they get special treatment while other choose to work hard to honor their loan agreement?   
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: RFAAOATB on April 03, 2015, 03:19:20 PM
Why can't these losers do what the guy who worked 3 jobs did to pay his college loan back?  Why would they get special treatment while other choose to work hard to honor their loan agreement?

Working 3 jobs is an unreasonable and unhealthy expectation to put on a population at large.  Bankruptcy isn't free.  The credit hit imposes barriers to get ahead.  This isn't special treatment, it is a choice to take the credit hit to get away from the loan or to pay off the loan through extraordinary effort and keep the credit clean.  Allowing student loans to be discharged via bankruptcy would be a net good for society.  It puts the risk evaluation on the lenders, who should be better at risk analysis than the borrowers.  It could pop the education bubble and dash the college dreams of disadvantaged groups, which is a reason beyond the loans which is why it wont be popular.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Sofa King on April 03, 2015, 03:50:05 PM
FUCK THEM. They agreed to the terms so now time to pay up.  The personal accountability they will have to have will be a good life lesson for them and then just maybe they will tell their kids (that they can't afford to have but will) not to do what they did.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: netskyblue on April 03, 2015, 04:58:20 PM
Have they tried suing the school for fraud/misrepresentation and demanding refunds? That seems to make a lot more sense than refusing to pay back your loans.

This exactly.  You borrowed the money and made a promise to pay it back - you pay it back.  I mean, if I took out a loan to go buy a boat (ha ha) and after I got it, found out it was riddled with dry rot & falling apart, it's not like I could just refuse to pay the bank back.  Go after the lousy school that sold them the lemon education.  It's already been paid, so refusing to pay the loans isn't going to do anything to harm the school.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: nazar on April 03, 2015, 06:11:26 PM
This really needs to be addressed in high schools.  Guidance counselors should be explaining different educational opportunities and the general costs and benefits of these options, as well as other opportunities.  If the can cite job placement rates of ivy leagues, research universities and community colleges why aren't they doing the same with the for profit schools?
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: bludreamin on April 03, 2015, 06:49:57 PM
First thought - Holy Shit!!! $100K plus in loans with a monthly payment of $1500 a month - how is that possible? I don't remember how much I took out in loans but I know that my payments were much less than that - I was paying about half that a month but only because I wanted to pay off the BS/MS loans within 5 years of getting my first "real" job.

Second - I agree with some of the sentiment here in that I have next to no sympathy for people that refuse to honor their obligations. You signed for the loan - you pay for the loan.  think you got a bad deal? Well, sucks to be you. Put on your big boy/girl pants and figure a way to work it out (and by that I mean honoring your obligations and paying back your loan).   The amount of money that these people seemed to have taken out is idiotic and should be considered shame-worthy consumer debt. Note that I mention their debt is idiotic, not the people themselves. I think these people are pitiable because their parents, society, and (HS) educational system has failed to educate them on what should be basic personal finance and  responsible consumer knowledge (e.g., managing inflow/outflow, cost of debt, researching purchases, managing/avoiding liabilities, gaining/improving assets).

Since loans were the only reason I was able to pay for my post-secondary schooling, I see the benefit to student loans. If I had a magic wand to wave, my solution to the cluster that is the current student loan system would be to have student loans that:

If a student needs more than $X/year or more than (Y+1) years to afford/complete their post-secondary education/training, they either need to (1) find/earn scholarships, (2) get a job(s)/save for it, and/or (3) get a PUNCH IN THE FACE (and maybe a personal loan if they can provide a reasonable justification).   Obviously, my considerations for student loans above wouldn't cover post-graduate study so those would have to be funded through scholarships, TA/RA positions, etc to avoid face punches. 
 


If you've grown up in the US within the last generation or so, you've almost certainly been indoctrinated from birth to believe "YOU MUST GO TO COLLEGE OR YOU WILL FAIL AT LIFE." Your parents tell you that (even if they themselves aren't college-educated). Your teachers tell you that. Your high-school guidance counselor tells you that. The government tells you that. Banks tell you that. Slick ads for bullshit scam schools tell you that. And nobody's telling you otherwise (because even companies looking for non-college-educated skilled workers still probably want you to go to trade school, at least).



RE: the bold statement (emphasis mine) in the quote above - My HS guidance counselor actually recommended I take a teen parenting class when I was a freshman in HS(when planning for sophomore year classes) since "it would help prepare me to find a job after HS". I still remember the look he gave me when I told him I was going to college, it's the same look I got junior year when I told him the only university I was applying for was a well-respected engineering school in the region and no I didn't have a back up school. At least I got the last laugh - because, in spite of his negativity, I graduated with high honors from said engineering school (in 3.5 years no less) and went on to get my masters, which and my father was against that one because I needed to "find a husband and start a family" *sigh*. I thank the stars for my mother - she always supports me (with a dose of reality when needed) and encouraged me to work hard for what I want.

And while the (standard) university (plus) path worked for me, I think there definitely needs to be more education in HS about post-secondary options.  I firmly believe that everyone should undertake some form of post-secondary education/training but  4+ year in college/university is not the only option.  Community college, apprenticeship/trade school, military, etc. are just as valid and worthwhile for a "successful" life.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Wings5 on April 03, 2015, 09:00:06 PM
And while the (standard) university (plus) path worked for me, I think there definitely needs to be more education in HS about post-secondary options.  I firmly believe that everyone should undertake some form of post-secondary education/training but  4+ year in college/university is not the only option.  Community college, apprenticeship/trade school, military, etc. are just as valid and worthwhile for a "successful" life.

I agree wholeheartedly that there are plenty of other succesful paths in life that do not inckude college. But consider for a minute how unproductive an average day spent at Anytown High can be. I get text messages from relatives in high school all day, as if they aren't even in school, and I don't think I am alone. If school is just some big hangout that's funded by, well, who cares, with no real point, it will be hard to grab kids' attention about the seriousness of transitioning to adulthood and some type of productive life. 
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: shedinator on April 03, 2015, 09:26:56 PM
Student Loans were once a touchy subject for me, because I was one of the people who got suckered on the whole promise of a college education. I, along with just about every other high school student graduating in the early and mid-2000s, was told "get a degree - ANY degree - and you'll make $1,000,000 more in your life time." We had people come and talk to us who went to school and majored in early Renaissance trombone and graduated to get 6 figure office jobs with full benefits. We were further told that going to a private school instead of a public one would boost our earnings even further. So a bunch of us ran off and applied to expensive schools, "knowing" we would graduate and pay off our loans years ahead of schedule.

Then we graduated either just before or during the financial collapse, and that pool of six figure jobs we were all set to dive into turned out to be empty. The dominant cultural narrative could not have changed any faster. The very same people who insisted that student loans were "good debt," right up there with mortgages, were suddenly asking why we all went and got student loans and acting as though that wasn't something absolutely everybody told us we MUST do. It was, and is, a very frustrating time to be a recent college graduate. And as I see other people being put through the same bait and switch, I still get angry, because these are teenage children who not only have not been taught any better, but who have been actively indoctrinated into believing a false narrative. The "personal accountability" argument has some bearing, but in this case, I would contend ignorance absolutely is an excuse - not an excuse not to pay, but certainly a valid basis for anger and frustration.

That said, my outlook on this system is twofold.
First, I think the entire college industrial complex needs to be dismantled. College costs are a bubble that needs to burst. We need to stop handing out these ridiculous student loans which go to fund administrative salaries, extracurricular activities, and a bunch of other things which are in no way related to improved education. If schools cannot remain solvent without regular cash infusions from the government via new crops of fiscally naive freshpersons, they should restructure, be allowed to go under, or surrender themselves to be run entirely by the government. Plenty of other countries have no difficulty providing a free public university education to their populations at a lower cost than student loans are running these days. Take a lesson from them and stop subsidizing useless frills with risky loans. Further, private education loans simply shouldn't be allowed. If the gov't wants students to have subsidized education, they should do it themselves, not push banks to do it by proxy.

Second, and perhaps more importantly for this particular article, people need to be aware of the relief programs in place for folks who can't pay their loans. They did indeed agree to the terms, as did the lender, and those terms allow for a whole host of alternative payment structures, including income based repayment for federal loans. Depending on income and family size, your SL payment can be as low as $0/month (mine would be $55 if I went that route), and any remaining balance after 25 years of repayment is forgiven. The terms of IBR are incredibly generous - most folks here would have no difficulty coming up with the room in their budgets to make the corresponding payment. If you could find a job at a qualifying nonprofit or gov't agency, you could even combine it with the Public Service forgiveness program and have your full balance discharged after just 10 years. Only drawback here is that it doesn't apply to private loans, which... see above.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Sofa King on April 04, 2015, 05:04:24 PM
This is an interesting page with many loan horror stories  http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/


It is common knowledge now(and has been for last 5+ years) that many (most) colleges are just a flat out rip off yet High School students are still taking on these crazy loans in 2015 like they don't know any better.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: shedinator on April 04, 2015, 05:47:33 PM
This is an interesting page with many loan horror stories  http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/


It is common knowledge now(and has been for last 5+ years) that many (most) colleges are just a flat out rip off yet High School students are still taking on these crazy loans in 2015 like they don't know any better.

I'm not sure it's all that common of knowledge, quite frankly. I've got a bunch of kids in my youth group whose parents all intend for them to go to "the best college" (read: most expensive) they can get into. Only one of those parents has indicated any intention to pay for said schooling. The rest are being encouraged to pay for their educations with scholarships, and make up any remaining difference in loans. I know this is a bad idea for the majority of the kids who are looking at low ROI degrees, but I am one voice saying so, and their parents, guidance counselors, and the other adults in their lives are a loud chorus mostly saying the opposite. They're all vaguely aware that the "degree = lucrative job" axiom ceased to be true, but the narrative is so ingrained that they continue to perpetuate it.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Sofa King on April 04, 2015, 06:31:45 PM

I'm not sure it's all that common of knowledge, quite frankly.

http://www.columbiachronicle.com/campus/article_273cf286-45f7-11e4-86fa-0017a43b2370.html
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: shedinator on April 04, 2015, 10:54:24 PM

I'm not sure it's all that common of knowledge, quite frankly.

http://www.columbiachronicle.com/campus/article_273cf286-45f7-11e4-86fa-0017a43b2370.html

Not sure how that relates to what I said. I know most colleges are a ripoff, and student debt is reaching national crisis levels - we have no disagreement there. But my experience with teenagers and their parents suggests to me that either a) that knowledge is not yet "common knowledge," or b) this generation of teenagers and their parents are employing some heavy duty collective cognitive dissonance. When the mentality of the population is still predisposed to believing college attendance is inherently superior to all other paths, it's hard to conclude that it's common knowledge that most colleges are a ripoff.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Jack on April 06, 2015, 07:54:58 AM
This exactly.  You borrowed the money and made a promise to pay it back - you pay it back.  I mean, if I took out a loan to go buy a boat (ha ha) and after I got it, found out it was riddled with dry rot & falling apart, it's not like I could just refuse to pay the bank back. 

Except with a boat, you can do that! Then the bank repossesses the leaky boat and it has to deal with trying to make its money back. For this reason, banks charge higher interest rates on older boats in order to compensate for that risk (and for really old boats, they refuse to lend). When the person trying to buy the boat can only find a 30% interest rate (or is unable to obtain financing at all), that provides a pretty big clue that somebody thinks buying the boat isn't a good idea in the first place.

With student loans, banks have been actively prevented (by the government) from charging higher interest rates for leaky, dry-rotted educations at shitty schools. The student (whom we've already agreed is naive and idiotic to begin with, remember) loses that important market signal.

Since loans were the only reason I was able to pay for my post-secondary schooling, I see the benefit to student loans.

Loans were the only reason you were able to pay for your schooling precisely because the availability of loans CAUSED your schooling to become too expensive to pay for by any other means!

Student Loans were once a touchy subject for me, because I was one of the people who got suckered on the whole promise of a college education. I, along with just about every other high school student graduating in the early and mid-2000s, was told "get a degree - ANY degree - and you'll make $1,000,000 more in your life time." We had people come and talk to us who went to school and majored in early Renaissance trombone and graduated to get 6 figure office jobs with full benefits. We were further told that going to a private school instead of a public one would boost our earnings even further. So a bunch of us ran off and applied to expensive schools, "knowing" we would graduate and pay off our loans years ahead of schedule.

Then we graduated either just before or during the financial collapse, and that pool of six figure jobs we were all set to dive into turned out to be empty. The dominant cultural narrative could not have changed any faster. The very same people who insisted that student loans were "good debt," right up there with mortgages, were suddenly asking why we all went and got student loans and acting as though that wasn't something absolutely everybody told us we MUST do. It was, and is, a very frustrating time to be a recent college graduate. And as I see other people being put through the same bait and switch, I still get angry, because these are teenage children who not only have not been taught any better, but who have been actively indoctrinated into believing a false narrative. The "personal accountability" argument has some bearing, but in this case, I would contend ignorance absolutely is an excuse - not an excuse not to pay, but certainly a valid basis for anger and frustration.

This x1000!

These two charts say it all:

(http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Education/education_sm.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/US_GDP_per_capita_vs_median_household_income.png)

I started college right about when the slope of that College Education Inflation Rate curve increased, and graduated right when that Real Median Household Income curve took a nose-dive. Despite having two good (i.e., engineering) degrees, I've managed to end up spending years unemployed. My wife, with a less-good (i.e., art) degree, has now resorted to a seasonal job working as a retail cashier. And we're the lucky ones! Most of the people refusing to pay their loans back and whatnot are much, much worse off than we are.

And then, to add insult to injury, we get a bunch of Gen-Xers (who not only went to college back when it was easily affordable on the proceeds from their summer McJob, but who also benefited from the rise in salaries in the '90s) telling us that we fucked up by actually listening to the shitty advice that they themselves gave us in the first place!
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: beltim on April 06, 2015, 08:05:15 AM
These two charts say it all:

I think these are two more important charts:

(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/CPBB_Per_Student_Spending_Cuts.jpg)
State funding of education has decreased significantly and rapidly in almost every state – and that's only over a 5 year period!

(http://justpublics365.commons.gc.cuny.edu/files/2013/06/CPBB_Higher_Ed_Cuts_Tuition_Relationship.jpg)
And, shockingly, that leads to higher tuition increases in states where higher education funding has been cut.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: beltim on April 06, 2015, 08:11:14 AM
Or, for a longer-term view:

(http://image.slidesharecdn.com/ztcdegreeproblemoverview-150211090059-conversion-gate02/95/the-textbook-cost-crisis-ztcdegree-6-638.jpg?cb=1423666936)
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: shedinator on April 06, 2015, 08:30:49 AM

Student Loans were once a touchy subject for me, because I was one of the people who got suckered on the whole promise of a college education. I, along with just about every other high school student graduating in the early and mid-2000s, was told "get a degree - ANY degree - and you'll make $1,000,000 more in your life time." We had people come and talk to us who went to school and majored in early Renaissance trombone and graduated to get 6 figure office jobs with full benefits. We were further told that going to a private school instead of a public one would boost our earnings even further. So a bunch of us ran off and applied to expensive schools, "knowing" we would graduate and pay off our loans years ahead of schedule.

Then we graduated either just before or during the financial collapse, and that pool of six figure jobs we were all set to dive into turned out to be empty. The dominant cultural narrative could not have changed any faster. The very same people who insisted that student loans were "good debt," right up there with mortgages, were suddenly asking why we all went and got student loans and acting as though that wasn't something absolutely everybody told us we MUST do. It was, and is, a very frustrating time to be a recent college graduate. And as I see other people being put through the same bait and switch, I still get angry, because these are teenage children who not only have not been taught any better, but who have been actively indoctrinated into believing a false narrative. The "personal accountability" argument has some bearing, but in this case, I would contend ignorance absolutely is an excuse - not an excuse not to pay, but certainly a valid basis for anger and frustration.

This x1000!

These two charts say it all:

(http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Education/education_sm.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/US_GDP_per_capita_vs_median_household_income.png)

I started college right about when the slope of that College Education Inflation Rate curve increased, and graduated right when that Real Median Household Income curve took a nose-dive. Despite having two good (i.e., engineering) degrees, I've managed to end up spending years unemployed. My wife, with a less-good (i.e., art) degree, has now resorted to a seasonal job working as a retail cashier. And we're the lucky ones! Most of the people refusing to pay their loans back and whatnot are much, much worse off than we are.

And then, to add insult to injury, we get a bunch of Gen-Xers (who not only went to college back when it was easily affordable on the proceeds from their summer McJob, but who also benefited from the rise in salaries in the '90s) telling us that we fucked up by actually listening to the shitty advice that they themselves gave us in the first place!

Yes. These things right here.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: dude on April 06, 2015, 01:12:49 PM
Saw the documentary "Ivory Tower" on a recent plane ride home from Japan.  Very interesting -- explains the factors behind the exploding cost of college education (not the least of which is the competition to provide luxury dorms, gigantic recreation centers with rock walls, outdoor pools, and more). It's pretty insane.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/ivory-tower-explores-american-higher-education-pricey/
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Elderwood17 on April 06, 2015, 02:09:23 PM
Had dinner recently with friends who do financial counseling at our church.  They have had several young couples recently who didn't understand they HAD TO PAY STUDENT LOANS BACK!!   They honestly thought student loans were grants.  They said it is common that they meet with folks who have no idea how much they had taken out in loans, and it is not unusual for their "guess" to be off by a factor of 50%.  These are college graduates.
Title: Re: Student Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Capsu78 on April 06, 2015, 05:26:50 PM
Some counter points to several of the charts posted above:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-reason-college-tuition-costs-so-much.html?smid=fb-share&_r=1

This one I strongly agree with-
"Even more strikingly, an analysis by a professor at California Polytechnic University, Pomona, found that, while the total number of full-time faculty members in the C.S.U. system grew from 11,614 to 12,019 between 1975 and 2008, the total number of administrators grew from 3,800 to 12,183 — a 221 percent increase."
Title: Re: Student Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: shedinator on April 06, 2015, 07:45:19 PM
Some counter points to several of the charts posted above:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-reason-college-tuition-costs-so-much.html?smid=fb-share&_r=1

This one I strongly agree with-
"Even more strikingly, an analysis by a professor at California Polytechnic University, Pomona, found that, while the total number of full-time faculty members in the C.S.U. system grew from 11,614 to 12,019 between 1975 and 2008, the total number of administrators grew from 3,800 to 12,183 — a 221 percent increase."

The over-administration of college is ridiculous, and IMO actually decreases the quality of academics as professors are subjected to greater and greater amounts of scrutiny and restriction, which runs contrary to the very spirit of liberal arts education. I don't think that's necessarily a counter point to the charts above, though, so much as it's yet further evidence that the rising costs of college do not reflect rising values of college. Whether the ultimate culprit is fancier dorms, more student activities, more administration, or all of these things and more, all of the information indicates that prices are being driven up while product quality is more suspect than it's ever been.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: sheepstache on April 06, 2015, 09:41:13 PM
Something has been driving me nuts and I'm glad there's a crowd here I can share it with. A friend posted this on her facebook wall (she's smart and often posts a lot of cool stuff):

http://smartpenny.club/922/sallie-mae-forced-to-pay-back-nearly-200-million-to-student-borrowers-2/

I pointed out that this is not an article, it's just an advertisement for student debt consolidation. The first 2 paragraphs touch on the topic but don't have any info, the rest of it is just an ad about how much people are suffering from high student debt and how you should call "the number below", making it sound like it has something to do with the SallieMae payback deal.

If you click up at the top on the website name ("Smart Penny Club, Expert Independent Reports"), it just redirects to StudentDefender.org which has the same phone number. They appear to advise people on loan consolidation as well as income-based repayment plans.

At the time I pointed out it was a bullshit article, one person had shared it. Friends, I just checked, and it has now been shared 14 times. Despite the fact that the article has no information about the supposed payback and there is no useful information for anybody in it--despite, in fact, that there are lots of legitimate articles about the government probes into Sallie Mae--rage against the company compels people to disseminate this.

Ha, now that I think about it in the context of this thread, it's funny. People are outraged at the "special treatment" people would get if loans were forgiven even though it doesn't affect them directly. On the flip side, people with loans are so angry at SallieMae that they're delighted to see them being punished even though the investigation may never lead to any pay out and they may never directly be affected by it if there is.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: dividendman on April 06, 2015, 10:03:26 PM
A strike is you losing money by not working to gain future concessions from an employer in the hopes that they are losing more and realize your value.

What the fuck is a repayment "strike"? I hate then people make up terms to make shit sound righteous.

Yeah, I'm going on a "Paying Retailers for Things Strike" by going into stores and taking their shit... now it's somehow OK since it's a strike.

Stop being so Orwellian with your shit news media/people.
Title: Re: Student Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Jack on April 07, 2015, 09:19:46 AM
Some counter points to several of the charts posted above:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/the-real-reason-college-tuition-costs-so-much.html?smid=fb-share&_r=1

This one I strongly agree with-
"Even more strikingly, an analysis by a professor at California Polytechnic University, Pomona, found that, while the total number of full-time faculty members in the C.S.U. system grew from 11,614 to 12,019 between 1975 and 2008, the total number of administrators grew from 3,800 to 12,183 — a 221 percent increase."

The over-administration of college is ridiculous, and IMO actually decreases the quality of academics as professors are subjected to greater and greater amounts of scrutiny and restriction, which runs contrary to the very spirit of liberal arts education. I don't think that's necessarily a counter point to the charts above, though, so much as it's yet further evidence that the rising costs of college do not reflect rising values of college. Whether the ultimate culprit is fancier dorms, more student activities, more administration, or all of these things and more, all of the information indicates that prices are being driven up while product quality is more suspect than it's ever been.

Indeed. From my perspective as someone who experienced it, I don't necessarily care why costs skyrocketed without a commensurate increase in quality; I only care that the ROI fell off a cliff in such a way that you couldn't tell you were fucked until after the fact.

That said, I still stand by my assertion that costs skyrocketed at least in part because of student loans. All that money to inflate the salaries of administrators (or however it was spent) had to come from somewhere, and if people had not had the ability to take on debt like that then the universities wouldn't have been able to charge so much regardless of how much they wanted to.
Title: Re: Student Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: shedinator on April 07, 2015, 10:24:04 AM
Indeed. From my perspective as someone who experienced it, I don't necessarily care why costs skyrocketed without a commensurate increase in quality; I only care that the ROI fell off a cliff in such a way that you couldn't tell you were fucked until after the fact.

That said, I still stand by my assertion that costs skyrocketed at least in part because of student loans. All that money to inflate the salaries of administrators (or however it was spent) had to come from somewhere, and if people had not had the ability to take on debt like that then the universities wouldn't have been able to charge so much regardless of how much they wanted to.

You're right, and the data bear out that fact: the rate of tuition increase is commensurate with the rate of borrowing limit hikes. I wonder, though, how this can be avoided while still making funds available to students. My guess is by the time some legislative group got together and crafted the intricate regulations necessary to make student loans available to those who need them most while at the same time preventing schools from jacking up their prices accordingly, we'd all reach the conclusion that publicly administrated, no-frills education is the real solution. Hell, that's precisely why school voucher programs don't catch on: study after study shows that when vouchers are made available, the private schools boost tuition and low income students are stuck attending underfunded public schools. Maybe we just need to recognize that economic reality doesn't undergo a magic shift between 12th grade and freshman year.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: slugline on April 07, 2015, 10:41:56 AM
What the fuck is a repayment "strike"? I hate then people make up terms to make shit sound righteous.

They're probably borrowing (heh!) the same general concept of a rent strike (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent_strike). Of course, they're going to need a lot more than the "Corinthian 100" to withhold payment before it has any kind of meaningful economic impact on anyone other than themselves. . . .
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Mr Dorothy Dollar on April 07, 2015, 09:17:18 PM
So WTF is the solution? 

Default on the loans and move to another country. Leave the crappy debt here and start over in another country. Canada is rather nice.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: zolotiyeruki on April 08, 2015, 09:01:38 AM
I agree that student loans shouldn't be dischargeable in bankruptcy except under extreme conditions--after all, there's nothing to repossess. But the well of taxpayer-subsidized loans needs to dry up.

We've seen an incredible increase in administrative costs in higher education.  The same is true in our public schools--I seem to remember reading that in the 70's, there was a 30-to-1 ratio of classroom teachers to other staff.  And now it's 1-to-1.  Seriously, when I was in high school (1100 students or so), we had one principal and one assistant principal.  Our local high schools now have something like *six* assistant principals.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: jackiechiles2 on April 08, 2015, 12:31:53 PM
Have they tried suing the school for fraud/misrepresentation and demanding refunds? That seems to make a lot more sense than refusing to pay back your loans.  However, once we start talking consumer fraud, the AG usually gets involved.  Maybe to get his/her attention they had to hurt the gov't loan holder first.  I don't think it's a smart path but if gets the attention of people that can make a difference than maybe it wasn't the dumbest idea.

Also, student loans can be discharged in bankruptcy in some very rare circumstances that show extreme hardship beyond just what every student faces.  You need more than insolvency.  Their stories could rise to that level.  Here is an article on it.  http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/student-loan-ranger/2014/08/13/debunking-the-student-loan-bankruptcy-myth

Someone tries to sue some law schools a while back on similar theories.  Thomas Cooley was one of the defendants. I believe it got dismissed because the judge basically said nobody would be dumb enough to believe the bs the law schools were spewing.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike -UPDATE
Post by: dude on April 10, 2015, 05:42:24 AM
Well, it looks like these "striking students'" cause is gaining traction.  They've got states' officials' attention:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/9-states-want-corinthian-colleges-student-debt-wiped-away-2015-04-09
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike -UPDATE
Post by: Jack on April 10, 2015, 07:32:59 AM
Well, it looks like these "striking students'" cause is gaining traction.  They've got states' officials' attention:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/9-states-want-corinthian-colleges-student-debt-wiped-away-2015-04-09

Quote
The top law enforcement officials of Massachusetts, California, Connecticut, Illinois, Kentucky, New Mexico, New York, Oregon and Washington...

♫ One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song? ♫
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: eyePod on April 10, 2015, 08:27:13 AM
If you get into a good college and get a crap degree, the onus is on you and you should pay.   But if you go to a fraudulent college for a crap degree, it may be your personal responsibility NOT to pay.

Ah, but once you reach this point (getting the crap degree) you've ALREADY paid the college, and are now having to repay the BANK.

Thanks for pointing this out. The bank is an innocent party in this. The only reason they make those huge loans is the absurd special rules of the game the government sets up. It it wasn't for government policy regarding college and student loans the schools wouldn't charge nearly as much and the banks wouldn't lend nearly as much so there would never be massive mortgage sized debt backed by nothing and handed out like candy.

Getting ready for the bubble to burst. it's gonna be a hell of a ride. Wish there was some way to short student loan debt like you can stocks!
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: JustPlainBill on April 10, 2015, 11:31:58 AM
Sorry, kiddos.  A loan is a contract and needs to be honored.  Made a bad decision?  Didn't do enough research?  Picked one of those advertise-on-cable colleges?  I sympathize, but too damn bad, pay up.

Of course the politicians are going to open their yaps, express outrage, and demand forgiveness.  Good for getting the votes of the ignorant youths, and after all, it's just the taxpayer's money we're talking about.

"Life is hard.  Life is harder if you're stupid".  Various sources.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: shedinator on April 10, 2015, 09:53:26 PM
Sorry, kiddos.  A loan is a contract and needs to be honored.  Made a bad decision?  Didn't do enough research?  Picked one of those advertise-on-cable colleges?  I sympathize, but too damn bad, pay up.

Of course the politicians are going to open their yaps, express outrage, and demand forgiveness.  Good for getting the votes of the ignorant youths, and after all, it's just the taxpayer's money we're talking about.

"Life is hard.  Life is harder if you're stupid".  Various sources.

This keeps being said, but it's said in such a way that I get the sense the posters don't mean it. "A loan is a contract and needs to be honored." Sure. Absolutely it needs to be honored. It just so happens that part of the contract says if the loans were issued fraudulently, they are eligible for cancellation, and one such form of fraud is the institution falsely certifying you as qualified/eligible to work in the field of your choice. That needs to be honored. It also happens that another part of the contract says if you don't earn above a certain amount post-graduation, you are eligible to make less-than-full payments and have the remaining balance forgiven after 25 years. That, also, needs to be honored.

Are these ridiculous contract terms for a loan? Yes, they are, but they are the terms of the contract. If people feel that they are within the parameters of their student loan contract to not pay, and that the bank in question is attempting to collect payments in violation of that contract, then they should not pay. Given recent rulings concerning the validity (or lack thereof) of certain schools' certification claims, they may even be right and the terms of the contract will be enforced in their favor. Or they may be wrong, in which case the terms of the contract will be be enforced against them by means of garnished wages, damaged credit, and potential loss of license. Either way, this is a disagreement over who is currently in violation of the contract terms, and it will eventually be resolved one way or another.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Sofa King on April 11, 2015, 05:15:10 PM
Sorry, kiddos.  A loan is a contract and needs to be honored.  Made a bad decision?  Didn't do enough research?  Picked one of those advertise-on-cable colleges?  I sympathize, but too damn bad, pay up.



"Life is hard.  Life is harder if you're stupid".  Various sources.

I concur.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: MrsPete on April 15, 2015, 05:41:09 PM
We've seen an incredible increase in administrative costs in higher education.  The same is true in our public schools--I seem to remember reading that in the 70's, there was a 30-to-1 ratio of classroom teachers to other staff.  And now it's 1-to-1.  Seriously, when I was in high school (1100 students or so), we had one principal and one assistant principal.  Our local high schools now have something like *six* assistant principals.
No, lots of wrong info:

- When I was a student in the 70s and 80s, my classes were roughly 20 students-1 teacher.  Today my own classroom tends towards 28-32 students-1 teacher.  This is an average for my county.  In the big-city county next to us, it's more like 35-38 students-1 teacher.  The average student is receiving less "teacher time" than in the past.

- We do have more assistant principals; however, high schools have increased in size -- this is something people want; that is, "we" want larger schools that can offer a wider range of AP classes, multiple musical classes and advanced PE classes, JROTC, international travel options, loads of clubs, etc.  To offer these things, high schools must increase in number.  I was one of 130 seniors, and we had a principal and an assistant.  The high school where I teach will graduate 350 seniors this year, and we have a principal and three assistants.  So, 130-2 vs. 350-4.  I would never want an admin job; all they do is deal with the bad kids and attend sports and other evening events -- at least one of them must be present for EVERY school event, even something small like a tennis match. 

- We are now "keeping" many special ed students who in the past essentially never came to school.  My school is one of a few in our area that houses the "severe and profound classes".  These 5-6 students do have a teacher plus two assistants, but it's their legal right to attend school.  Similarly, we house two "life skills" classes that educate kids who can't be placed in the mainstream classes; those classes have 12-15 students-1 teacher plus 2 assistants.  Our special ed department is 3Xs the size of any other academic department, though our school does have more of these classes than the neighboring high schools. 

- We are now "keeping" students with behavior problems who in the past would've been expelled and forgotten.  We have a class for students with severe behavior problems.  Early in the year it contains about ten kids, a teacher and an assistant.  With 5-6 weeks of school left, this class has now dwindled to two students.  So, yes, that's a 1-1 ratio, but it's ONE CLASS, not the whole school. 

Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: beltim on April 15, 2015, 05:46:06 PM
We've seen an incredible increase in administrative costs in higher education.  The same is true in our public schools--I seem to remember reading that in the 70's, there was a 30-to-1 ratio of classroom teachers to other staff.  And now it's 1-to-1.  Seriously, when I was in high school (1100 students or so), we had one principal and one assistant principal.  Our local high schools now have something like *six* assistant principals.
No, lots of wrong info:

- When I was a student in the 70s and 80s, my classes were roughly 20 students-1 teacher.  Today my own classroom tends towards 28-32 students-1 teacher.  This is an average for my county.  In the big-city county next to us, it's more like 35-38 students-1 teacher.  The average student is receiving less "teacher time" than in the past.

The rest of your post is interesting, but you misread on this point.  Zolotiyeruki was talking about the ratio of teachers to other staff, not about the ratio of students to teachers.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: gimp on April 15, 2015, 07:48:50 PM
Sorry, kiddos.  A loan is a contract and needs to be honored.  Made a bad decision?  Didn't do enough research?  Picked one of those advertise-on-cable colleges?  I sympathize, but too damn bad, pay up.

Of course the politicians are going to open their yaps, express outrage, and demand forgiveness.  Good for getting the votes of the ignorant youths, and after all, it's just the taxpayer's money we're talking about.

"Life is hard.  Life is harder if you're stupid".  Various sources.

A loan is a contract that, if not honored, has penalties. If you do the math and decide the penalties cost less than honoring it, that's your business decision to make. Morality aside, it's a business decision. Your argument may be that it is your moral obligation to honor the contract, but that's an entirely different argument.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: zolotiyeruki on April 16, 2015, 10:51:02 AM
No, lots of wrong info:

- When I was a student in the 70s and 80s, my classes were roughly 20 students-1 teacher.  Today my own classroom tends towards 28-32 students-1 teacher.  This is an average for my county.  In the big-city county next to us, it's more like 35-38 students-1 teacher.  The average student is receiving less "teacher time" than in the past.

- We do have more assistant principals; however, high schools have increased in size -- this is something people want; that is, "we" want larger schools that can offer a wider range of AP classes, multiple musical classes and advanced PE classes, JROTC, international travel options, loads of clubs, etc.  To offer these things, high schools must increase in number.  I was one of 130 seniors, and we had a principal and an assistant.  The high school where I teach will graduate 350 seniors this year, and we have a principal and three assistants.  So, 130-2 vs. 350-4.  I would never want an admin job; all they do is deal with the bad kids and attend sports and other evening events -- at least one of them must be present for EVERY school event, even something small like a tennis match. 

- We are now "keeping" many special ed students who in the past essentially never came to school.  My school is one of a few in our area that houses the "severe and profound classes".  These 5-6 students do have a teacher plus two assistants, but it's their legal right to attend school.  Similarly, we house two "life skills" classes that educate kids who can't be placed in the mainstream classes; those classes have 12-15 students-1 teacher plus 2 assistants.  Our special ed department is 3Xs the size of any other academic department, though our school does have more of these classes than the neighboring high schools. 

- We are now "keeping" students with behavior problems who in the past would've been expelled and forgotten.  We have a class for students with severe behavior problems.  Early in the year it contains about ten kids, a teacher and an assistant.  With 5-6 weeks of school left, this class has now dwindled to two students.  So, yes, that's a 1-1 ratio, but it's ONE CLASS, not the whole school.
I can't argue against the last two points--certainly we devote a lot more resources to special ed and at-risk students than we used to.  However, my experience differs with yours on the first two points.  I attended a high school of 1100 students, with 1 assistant principal.  Our local high schools, with about 2500 students each, each have 6 assistant principals. So the difference is a factor of 2.5-3 (on an assistant-principal-per-student basis).  Granted, it's just one datapoint, but still.  As for administration being required to attend every event, sheesh, that's insane.

As for class size, perhaps you're in an outlier--this survey (https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass1112_2013314_t1s_007.asp) seems to show that average class sizes vary from place to place, but not consistently near/above 30.

One other thing I *have* noticed is the incredible amount of money paid for facilities.  The all-the-bells-and-whistles theater, the cafeteria with 35-foot ceilings, the ridiculously inefficient architecture, etc. Not only are they expensive to build (a recent proposal was something like $100 million to expand the high school to accommodate another 500 students), but it also costs a lot to clean, maintain, and pay the interest on the debt.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: MrsPete on April 18, 2015, 05:56:05 PM
No, lots of wrong info:

- When I was a student in the 70s and 80s, my classes were roughly 20 students-1 teacher.  Today my own classroom tends towards 28-32 students-1 teacher.  This is an average for my county.  In the big-city county next to us, it's more like 35-38 students-1 teacher.  The average student is receiving less "teacher time" than in the past.

- We do have more assistant principals; however, high schools have increased in size -- this is something people want; that is, "we" want larger schools that can offer a wider range of AP classes, multiple musical classes and advanced PE classes, JROTC, international travel options, loads of clubs, etc.  To offer these things, high schools must increase in number.  I was one of 130 seniors, and we had a principal and an assistant.  The high school where I teach will graduate 350 seniors this year, and we have a principal and three assistants.  So, 130-2 vs. 350-4.  I would never want an admin job; all they do is deal with the bad kids and attend sports and other evening events -- at least one of them must be present for EVERY school event, even something small like a tennis match. 

- We are now "keeping" many special ed students who in the past essentially never came to school.  My school is one of a few in our area that houses the "severe and profound classes".  These 5-6 students do have a teacher plus two assistants, but it's their legal right to attend school.  Similarly, we house two "life skills" classes that educate kids who can't be placed in the mainstream classes; those classes have 12-15 students-1 teacher plus 2 assistants.  Our special ed department is 3Xs the size of any other academic department, though our school does have more of these classes than the neighboring high schools. 

- We are now "keeping" students with behavior problems who in the past would've been expelled and forgotten.  We have a class for students with severe behavior problems.  Early in the year it contains about ten kids, a teacher and an assistant.  With 5-6 weeks of school left, this class has now dwindled to two students.  So, yes, that's a 1-1 ratio, but it's ONE CLASS, not the whole school.
I can't argue against the last two points--certainly we devote a lot more resources to special ed and at-risk students than we used to.  However, my experience differs with yours on the first two points.  I attended a high school of 1100 students, with 1 assistant principal.  Our local high schools, with about 2500 students each, each have 6 assistant principals. So the difference is a factor of 2.5-3 (on an assistant-principal-per-student basis).  Granted, it's just one datapoint, but still.  As for administration being required to attend every event, sheesh, that's insane.

As for class size, perhaps you're in an outlier--this survey (https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass1112_2013314_t1s_007.asp) seems to show that average class sizes vary from place to place, but not consistently near/above 30.

One other thing I *have* noticed is the incredible amount of money paid for facilities.  The all-the-bells-and-whistles theater, the cafeteria with 35-foot ceilings, the ridiculously inefficient architecture, etc. Not only are they expensive to build (a recent proposal was something like $100 million to expand the high school to accommodate another 500 students), but it also costs a lot to clean, maintain, and pay the interest on the debt.
Numbers of administrators is going to vary from place to place, and it may well be that their duties vary from place to place ... but the big point is that high schools have INCREASED in size, mainly so that they can offer a wider variety of options to students, so more APs really are necessary.  Another thing I didn't mention is that our state is WASTING our APs time in having them observe X number of hours in every teachers' classroom /keep lengthy notes on what we're doing constantly. 

And, yes, someone from administration must attend every event.  Big events -- like football games and basketball games -- require multiple administrators.  No, they aren't working hard at these events; they're just watching the game, or whatever, but they essentially LIVE at the school.  When I started teaching, I used to think I wanted to move up to that job.  Nope, not any more. 

As for classes "averaging" less than 30, I'm going to call that one a lie.  That is, a lie with numbers.  As I said, my high school is one of the few who houses the severe and profound special ed classes.  They never have more than 5 students.  Likewise, our English-as-a-second-language classes run 5-10.  Don't forget Spanish-for-native-speakers, which has about 10 kids.  And classes like "library assistant" that technically count as classes (the students are assigned to the librarian, who is responsible for taking attendance every day), but are made up of 2 students at the most.  All these things bring our numbers down significantly, but the truth is that the average, mainstream class averages about 30. 

I can't relate to the over-the-top building.  Our "bells and whistles" auditorium is full of broken seats, and our cafeteria is nothing fancy.  Like most schools, we do have an aux. gym, but that's a matter of being a 1600+ student school.  Perhaps fancy schools are "a thing" in other parts of the country.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: zolotiyeruki on April 18, 2015, 07:19:04 PM
Numbers of administrators is going to vary from place to place, and it may well be that their duties vary from place to place ... but the big point is that high schools have INCREASED in size, mainly so that they can offer a wider variety of options to students, so more APs really are necessary.  Another thing I didn't mention is that our state is WASTING our APs time in having them observe X number of hours in every teachers' classroom /keep lengthy notes on what we're doing constantly. 

And, yes, someone from administration must attend every event.  Big events -- like football games and basketball games -- require multiple administrators.  No, they aren't working hard at these events; they're just watching the game, or whatever, but they essentially LIVE at the school.  When I started teaching, I used to think I wanted to move up to that job.  Nope, not any more. 

As for classes "averaging" less than 30, I'm going to call that one a lie.  That is, a lie with numbers.  As I said, my high school is one of the few who houses the severe and profound special ed classes.  They never have more than 5 students.  Likewise, our English-as-a-second-language classes run 5-10.  Don't forget Spanish-for-native-speakers, which has about 10 kids.  And classes like "library assistant" that technically count as classes (the students are assigned to the librarian, who is responsible for taking attendance every day), but are made up of 2 students at the most.  All these things bring our numbers down significantly, but the truth is that the average, mainstream class averages about 30. 

I can't relate to the over-the-top building.  Our "bells and whistles" auditorium is full of broken seats, and our cafeteria is nothing fancy.  Like most schools, we do have an aux. gym, but that's a matter of being a 1600+ student school.  Perhaps fancy schools are "a thing" in other parts of the country.
I wonder if the "adminstrator at every event" thing is common, or unique to your district.  That would certainly increase the workload.  Do you have any insight as to why such a policy is in place?
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: wileyish on April 19, 2015, 12:18:30 AM
And then, to add insult to injury, we get a bunch of Gen-Xers (who not only went to college back when it was easily affordable on the proceeds from their summer McJob, but who also benefited from the rise in salaries in the '90s) telling us that we fucked up by actually listening to the shitty advice that they themselves gave us in the first place!

Gen-Xer here. Thank you for posting this. I’ve been following this story with an equal amount of disbelief and smugness. $100,000+ in SL debt!?! Did all these people go to Harvard and they still can’t find jobs?? What the eff, I worked to pay for a B.A. and came out on the other side with a tiny amount of SLs and one of my college jobs parlayed into a lucrative/interesting career. Your post helped me reframe my opinions and do a little research on the current cost of higher education. Holy Mother, college HAS gotten a lot more expensive in just over 15 years or so. I wouldn’t have been able to swing a degree at current costs (accounting for inflation) without accruing substantial debt, so I’m more sympathetic towards the kids who graduated from college a few years ago. And I also see a lot of baby boomers clinging on to jobs from which they should have long since retired. But they need to fund their spools…who doesn’t need a Spa+Pool combo?…life wouldn’t be worth living without this contraption...

On the flip side, in the U.S. we are well into a boom cycle and opportunities abound. Remember, the generations before you, including early Gen-Xers, didn’t have the benefit of instant information with a few clicks of the keyboard. When evaluating investments, we had to mail in requests for a prospectus, try to digest the information in a shiny pamphlet with a vocabulary that was very foreign, mail in our sign-up forms (with postage stamps!), etc. It was all very convoluted and confusing. We did not have Google, Reddit, or MMM. So in a lot of ways your cohort has many advantages. It’s up to you to make the most of the resources now available. Despite the rough start, I expect the millennials will far surpass prior generations in creating lives that successfully leverage expenses and lifestyle. The journals section on this forum has several 20-somethings just crushing obstacles that take most people 30 or 40 years to navigate.
Title: Re: Studen Loan Recipients Go On Repayment Strike
Post by: Psychstache on April 21, 2015, 08:47:30 AM
Numbers of administrators is going to vary from place to place, and it may well be that their duties vary from place to place ... but the big point is that high schools have INCREASED in size, mainly so that they can offer a wider variety of options to students, so more APs really are necessary.  Another thing I didn't mention is that our state is WASTING our APs time in having them observe X number of hours in every teachers' classroom /keep lengthy notes on what we're doing constantly. 

And, yes, someone from administration must attend every event.  Big events -- like football games and basketball games -- require multiple administrators.  No, they aren't working hard at these events; they're just watching the game, or whatever, but they essentially LIVE at the school.  When I started teaching, I used to think I wanted to move up to that job.  Nope, not any more. 

As for classes "averaging" less than 30, I'm going to call that one a lie.  That is, a lie with numbers.  As I said, my high school is one of the few who houses the severe and profound special ed classes.  They never have more than 5 students.  Likewise, our English-as-a-second-language classes run 5-10.  Don't forget Spanish-for-native-speakers, which has about 10 kids.  And classes like "library assistant" that technically count as classes (the students are assigned to the librarian, who is responsible for taking attendance every day), but are made up of 2 students at the most.  All these things bring our numbers down significantly, but the truth is that the average, mainstream class averages about 30. 

I can't relate to the over-the-top building.  Our "bells and whistles" auditorium is full of broken seats, and our cafeteria is nothing fancy.  Like most schools, we do have an aux. gym, but that's a matter of being a 1600+ student school.  Perhaps fancy schools are "a thing" in other parts of the country.
I wonder if the "adminstrator at every event" thing is common, or unique to your district.  That would certainly increase the workload.  Do you have any insight as to why such a policy is in place?

Every district I or my friends has worked at requires some number of high school admins to appear at all after school events. It is a pretty standard practice.