Post by: Radagast on December 15, 2021, 08:39:03 PM
I've played the three D's of defense: Delay, distract, deflect.
I've gone through the 7 stages of grief: denial, anger, pleading, acceptance, bargaining, wait what are the 7 stages of grief?
Spouse is still dead set on it. And I have already delayed 6 years and I can't hold out much longer. Technically "we can afford it." It will only result in a net worth reduction of around $200,000 10 years from now (/s). I promised spouse would get it after we had $1M (which seemed so far away), and when we needed a new vehicle. We are nearly to $1M depending how you count, and our Honda Civic, which has half as many doors and paint as a typical Civic would have, is not especially suitable to transporting larger children in child seats (we also have a Subaru Forester). The obvious solution is a luxury SUV!
Naturally spouse went straight for the most expensive one on the list: Mercedes GLE 350 4Matic, new, the one without tax credits for PHEV or the resulting lower fuel demand. There still might be a little negotiation. I've been saying at least get a CR-V, or a minivan, or an electric vehicle, or even a Volvo XC90 which is just as nice, offers better value, and comes in a PHEV. Spouse's wealthiest friend, whose cheapest house is 13,000 square feet on a lake, strongly recommended a Toyota Sienna minivan as the best possible vehicle which could be bought for any amount of money, and the friend drives this vehicle daily in real life. Yay wealthiest friend! We will see.
Cars I have seen which I found disappointing during our search:
BMW X5: looks like ass, handles like minivan, ages poorly. A high-end Honda CR-V would be better in almost every respect.
Toyota Highlander: wouldn't you think a very fuel efficient 3-row SUV would be just the thing? No, the Highlander tries to be both the RAV4 and the Sienna, and ends up failing at life. Seriously people, if a RAV4 hybrid doesn't work for you, just get a Sienna hybrid.
Cars which exceed expectations (don't get me wrong these also handle like minivan):
Chrysler Pacifica: I heard about it on MMM, so probably not a surprise, but Stow n Go seating is no joke. This feature is now my all time most lusted after automotive feature. You could camp in it! Stack plywood! Make it a limo! Seat 8 people! Road trip!
Volvo XC90: wow, this is one classy car. Not as practical as a minivan, but it is elegant and well made inside and out. It would be right at home pulling into the gated drive of a stone mansion, and yet is not as expensive as the X5 and GLE. It also may be the actual safest vehicle on the road.
Silver linings:
Spouse doesn't like any paint colors except black and white, which are always no cost.
Spouse has no use for any but the smallest engine.
Luxury vehicles usually have the dumb moon roof as an option on all trims.
Well that's it from me, not sure what else I can say about it. Will keep you posted on the outcome.
Post by: AccidentialMustache on December 15, 2021, 09:24:27 PM
Side-side benefit -- sure you're spending that much on a car, but the Y at least is delivering almost a year out, so more delay? And then something better comes out and you can go for that instead for yet more delay?
Post by: Radagast on December 15, 2021, 09:36:47 PM
Most vehicles seem 3-4 months out, another silver lining.
Post by: six-car-habit on December 16, 2021, 02:01:57 AM
Mercedes has been making the GL-350 for several years now i think. Why not buy a low mile 2017-2020 model at a substantial savings to buying new?
It sounds like the Civic is not going to be a factor for trade-in value [?] - at least not to the point of massively offsetting the cost of a new car / sales taxes on new car.
Who will be driving this aspirational car mostly ? Is the spouse contributing to the future payment, or using their cash ? If it is not you as the primary driver, and they contribute $$, maybe you should ease up, and let them make the choice. You've already held them back for the last 6 years, is that not a big enough win ?
What is holding you back from trading your Forrester for a sweet Sienna for yourself to drive ?
Post by: former player on December 16, 2021, 03:42:40 AM
You are contending with two separate issues, the first being "SUV" and the second being "luxury". Any new or newish car these days seems to me to meet the definition of "luxury" (air con, entertainment system, comfortable ride, safety features, etc.) so I suspect that this element is mostly about perception and status and the badge on the vehicle. But given how long you've been following mustachian values if this hasn't sunk in with your spouse yet it probably never will, and also probably isn't worth wrecking a marriage over.
The SUV thing also seems to be something of a lost cause in the USA. A stupid sort of vehicle which is basically a camel designed by a committee to get round a provision in the tax code, yes? But again, seems to have some sort of status which is nothing to do with what it actually is. Yay for wealthy friend in the minivan.
If I were you I would probably be giving up on the luxury and the SUV and trying to go down the hybrid/electric route on the grounds that 1) it is an investment in your kids' future not to add to climate change and air pollution any more than you have to and 2) you are future-proofing yourselves against the phase-out of fossil fuel cars which will certainly start during the lifetime of this vehicle, even in the USA. You do not want to find yourselves effectively locked out of city centres by emissions limits and charges, for instance. And benchmark any contenders against that Toyota minivan.
Post by: Paper Chaser on December 16, 2021, 05:02:16 AM
Post by: boarder42 on December 16, 2021, 05:07:29 AM
Post by: uniwelder on December 16, 2021, 05:55:21 AM
...Any new or newish car these days seems to me to meet the definition of "luxury" (air con, entertainment system, comfortable ride, safety features, etc.) so I suspect that this element is mostly about perception and status and the badge on the vehicle. But given how long you've been following mustachian values if this hasn't sunk in with your spouse yet it probably never will, and also probably isn't worth wrecking a marriage over...
I suppose these issues spill over into more areas than just this vehicle purchase. I've seen some of your other posts, Radagast, but not much discussion of how your wife plays into mustachian lifestyle FIRE plans or her thoughts on it.
Post by: Askel on December 16, 2021, 06:04:22 AM
Besides, it sounds like you had a deal- reneging now would be very unfair.
Buy it, enjoy it, hope that they learn that Mercedes luxury isn't all it's cracked up to be and maybe buy something more practical next time.
Post by: chemistk on December 16, 2021, 06:27:21 AM
Many in our family call our 2014 Odyssey a "living room on wheels" and I agree. I love it, and if it weren't for the abysmal fuel economy (and the fact that my car is still doing fine), I'd get one for myself.
If a new, fancy, expensive car is in your future and your relationship revolves around it (and if it actually does, maybe some professional assistance is in order) I'd put all your eggs in the minivan basket. At least you'll have something fancy AND practical.
Post by: Metalcat on December 16, 2021, 07:22:52 AM
I'm not sure there's much more to discuss here. Don't make promises you don't intend to keep. That's shady as fuck.
Post by: thesis on December 16, 2021, 08:31:24 AM
Post by: roomtempmayo on December 16, 2021, 09:12:40 AM
If somebody is dead set on a Mercedes SUV (horrible quality, horrible resale value, pretty much horrible everything), there's no amount of mustachian logic that can be used to fight it.
Yup.
@Radagast This seems like a great time to lease a vehicle. 36 months from now, it'll probably be out of your wife's system, and you won't be stuck with the albatross of an aging luxury suv. If she turns out to really, really love it, you can always buy the lease out.
Post by: jinga nation on December 16, 2021, 09:40:11 AM
Naturally spouse went straight for the most expensive one on the list: Mercedes GLE 350 4Matic, new, the one without tax credits for PHEV or the resulting lower fuel demand.
Nah, you're lucky she picked a lower end model. Does the she want the AMG packages?
The top of the line GLE is the AMG GLE 53 4MATIC+ SUV, starts at $73,550.
@caleb is right, you're better off leasing (at ~$750/mo for 36 months).
With friends/acquaintances who've bought MB SUVs new and via CPO, I can tell you there will be some issue annually. When there is an issue, make your wife sort it out as it is her car, she wanted it.
For the price of the model your wife wants, I'd prefer to go with the Lexus GX. Still a gas guzzler, but with the legendary Toyota reliability.
Post by: Paper Chaser on December 16, 2021, 09:55:27 AM
Post by: chemistk on December 16, 2021, 10:34:25 AM
An option from Genesis might be worth considering as well. They tend to offer a lot more for your $, and they've got a far superior warranty so you can avoid paying high prices for service for a longer period of time.
I do not say this in jest - nobody who hangs around old money (or even new money for that matter) would ever be caught dead in a Genesis. It's only in recent years that Lexus is considered an 'acceptable' luxury brand.
Post by: Metalcat on December 16, 2021, 10:38:26 AM
An option from Genesis might be worth considering as well. They tend to offer a lot more for your $, and they've got a far superior warranty so you can avoid paying high prices for service for a longer period of time.
I do not say this in jest - nobody who hangs around old money (or even new money for that matter) would ever be caught dead in a Genesis. It's only in recent years that Lexus is considered an 'acceptable' luxury brand.
This is the most anti-mustachian statement I have EVER seen here.
Why the fuck should anyone decide what to drive based on what someone on the internet thinks is acceptable according to people with "old money"???
I hang out with a lot of wealthy people, unless it's a very expensive car, no one gives a fuck what you drive.
There is NO universal, monolithic culture among "the wealthy". Different social groups have different social values. And at the end of the day, NONE OF THEM matter in the least for any given individual, which is the whole point of MMM.
Post by: Paper Chaser on December 16, 2021, 11:13:30 AM
An option from Genesis might be worth considering as well. They tend to offer a lot more for your $, and they've got a far superior warranty so you can avoid paying high prices for service for a longer period of time.
I do not say this in jest - nobody who hangs around old money (or even new money for that matter) would ever be caught dead in a Genesis. It's only in recent years that Lexus is considered an 'acceptable' luxury brand.
Old money probably isn't buying flashy luxury SUVs in the first place. They'll scoff at the person in their new 6 figure, leased Benz just the same. I'd even argue that a truly luxurious purchase that isn't immediately recognized as a flashy, luxury brand might go over better (if we're worried about what others think).
Post by: gooki on December 16, 2021, 11:14:00 AM
Does the Hyundai Ioniq 5 have the right SUV shape?
Post by: Just Joe on December 16, 2021, 11:28:33 AM
Buy a used one at least. We went this route several years back and bought a nice 40K mile Acura MDX like new that has been trouble free for 70K miles now. Cheaper than a new Honda CRV or Pilot. 28-30 MPG on the highway last weekend, not a hybrid. Same as a Honda Odyssey/Pilot/Ridgeline underneath.
It required a timing belt at 105K. The parts are affordable but the shop visit would be quite expensive. Nearly $2K at the dealer. I DIY'd it for ~$250 with quality parts. We use it mostly for out of town trips and weekends.
By the way we're still running our 22 year old CRV daily with north of 300K miles now. Very reliable. I have done any and all repairs but still very cheap to run. Since it is old, parts are dirt cheap when it needs something.
Consider that all cars and SUVs are selling at a premium right now b/c of COVID supply chain problems. This might be the worst time in 30 years to buy a vehicle. When I visited the Acura dealer a month or so ago for a taillight gasket recall - they had TWO new vehicles available and a dozen used vehicles from a variety of brands.
I agree with everyone else. Go for the Mercedes if you like. Maintenance and repairs will be expensive - and it will need repairs. A friend had one for a couple of years. Really nice but they replaced it with something else mainstream b/c it was so expensive to keep running. Friends are not DIY mechanics. Also, I know a couple of BMW owners that have needed whole engines. My friend with the used Lexus has had a similar experience as we have - trouble free.
Post by: Fishindude on December 16, 2021, 11:30:36 AM
Post by: Sibley on December 16, 2021, 11:31:39 AM
You made a promise to your wife.
I'm not sure there's much more to discuss here. Don't make promises you don't intend to keep. That's shady as fuck.
This. Doesn't matter what OP thinks about it, they made an agreement. Breaking that agreement now, when the conditions have been met, is going to damage the relationship.
Post by: parkerk on December 16, 2021, 11:33:42 AM
I'd suggest focusing instead on how you want this to be a lesson for yourself in future negotiations and goal-setting as a couple. If you "promise" something hoping that you won't actually have to deliver on it either you or your wife is going to be disappointed in the outcome. Instead, think about either building in room to discuss and negotiate further when the milestone is reached, or you need to come to an agreement that you can be reasonably sure you'll still be happy with in the future.
I say this because it's not always easy to predict what your feelings on a matter will be two, or five, or ten years from now. I've learned the hard way not to say "I will definitely do X when Y happens" if I can help it because multiple times I've gotten to Y only to realize I don't want X anymore. If it's just me that's affected that's fine, but if someone else was counting on me doing X it's been a problem. Don't be like me!
Post by: Metalcat on December 16, 2021, 11:42:20 AM
An option from Genesis might be worth considering as well. They tend to offer a lot more for your $, and they've got a far superior warranty so you can avoid paying high prices for service for a longer period of time.
I do not say this in jest - nobody who hangs around old money (or even new money for that matter) would ever be caught dead in a Genesis. It's only in recent years that Lexus is considered an 'acceptable' luxury brand.
Old money probably isn't buying flashy luxury SUVs in the first place. They'll scoff at the person in their new 6 figure, leased Benz just the same. I'd even argue that a truly luxurious purchase that isn't immediately recognized as a flashy, luxury brand might go over better (if we're worried about what others think).
Also a huge generalization.
Plenty of "old money" wealthy folks drive luxury SUVs, very expensive vintage Land Rovers are all the rage among certain segments of "old wealth" folks.
Again, it depends on the group and the social history of the region.
But your assumption that the signals of wealth aren't noticeable is a common mistake. They may not be noticable to the middle class, but they're glaringly obvious to those who trade in those symbols of wealth.
I found the books in the same series as "Crazy Rich Asians" so perfectly captured my personal experience with the world of intense wealth. What's status to one group is tacky to another. How in one context, the people "in the know" knew that the ultimate symbol of status at a certain club was to show up in a dirty SUV wearing a really worn sports sweater of a particular vintage. To them, the status is obvious. It's not subtle, it just seems that way from the outside.
It's the same way that in my circles, I demonstrate status by carrying a beat up backpack instead of a Louis Vuitton bag like everyone else. It's a power play.
I laughed A LOT reading those books, the nonsense of it all was so PERFECTLY captured.
Suffice to say, NO ONE should base their decisions on the mercurial preferences of the ultra wealthy. That's just silly.
Post by: Chris22 on December 16, 2021, 11:46:06 AM
I wouldn’t do anything based on that information but the trope “old money buys cheap cars” isn’t true in my experience.
Post by: Paper Chaser on December 16, 2021, 11:50:27 AM
An option from Genesis might be worth considering as well. They tend to offer a lot more for your $, and they've got a far superior warranty so you can avoid paying high prices for service for a longer period of time.
I do not say this in jest - nobody who hangs around old money (or even new money for that matter) would ever be caught dead in a Genesis. It's only in recent years that Lexus is considered an 'acceptable' luxury brand.
Old money probably isn't buying flashy luxury SUVs in the first place. They'll scoff at the person in their new 6 figure, leased Benz just the same. I'd even argue that a truly luxurious purchase that isn't immediately recognized as a flashy, luxury brand might go over better (if we're worried about what others think).
Also a huge generalization.
Plenty of "old money" wealthy folks drive luxury SUVs, very expensive vintage Land Rovers are all the rage among certain segments of "old wealth" folks.
I admit that it was a generalization. However, in my defense, I said "flashy luxury SUVs" and "New 6 figure Benz". A vintage Land Rover is not flashy, luxurious, or new even if they can be expensive.
I agree with you that "old money" absolutely flaunts wealth, they simply do it in different ways. And not necessarily in the ways that most people of lesser means might think. 6 figure vintage Land Rover or Bronco vs 6 figure new Benz is a great example. They're both expensive status symbols, but they appeal to different types of people for different reasons.
Post by: chemistk on December 16, 2021, 11:58:58 AM
An option from Genesis might be worth considering as well. They tend to offer a lot more for your $, and they've got a far superior warranty so you can avoid paying high prices for service for a longer period of time.
I do not say this in jest - nobody who hangs around old money (or even new money for that matter) would ever be caught dead in a Genesis. It's only in recent years that Lexus is considered an 'acceptable' luxury brand.
This is the most anti-mustachian statement I have EVER seen here.
Why the fuck should anyone decide what to drive based on what someone on the internet thinks is acceptable according to people with "old money"???
I hang out with a lot of wealthy people, unless it's a very expensive car, no one gives a fuck what you drive.
There is NO universal, monolithic culture among "the wealthy". Different social groups have different social values. And at the end of the day, NONE OF THEM matter in the least for any given individual, which is the whole point of MMM.
I agree that it's supremely anti-mustachian.
I did not word it well. It's not meant to be taken as an imperative to the OP that he should avoid something that's a better value. This whole topic is weird, but within that context my own personal experience with people who come from means and those that surround them is that choosing a luxury vehicle, or anything for that matter, because it's a 'value' is social suicide.
My wife has extended family on both sides who are very wealthy, and those clusters have a wider circle (family and non family) of brownnosers who try to appear wealthy. My GIL has driven a Lexus his whole life and his first Lexus purchase did not garner any approval.
The whole thing is stupid and antithetical to the ethos of this community, or frankly to common sense.
I guess I meant to convey it more as a warning of sorts - that if perception is desired, an 'off brand' may not win one any favors. And a huge YMMV is necessary here.
ETA, I missed this one - very much words to live by.
Suffice to say, NO ONE should base their decisions on the mercurial preferences of the ultra wealthy. That's just silly.
Post by: Chris22 on December 16, 2021, 12:01:36 PM
An option from Genesis might be worth considering as well. They tend to offer a lot more for your $, and they've got a far superior warranty so you can avoid paying high prices for service for a longer period of time.
I do not say this in jest - nobody who hangs around old money (or even new money for that matter) would ever be caught dead in a Genesis. It's only in recent years that Lexus is considered an 'acceptable' luxury brand.
Old money probably isn't buying flashy luxury SUVs in the first place. They'll scoff at the person in their new 6 figure, leased Benz just the same. I'd even argue that a truly luxurious purchase that isn't immediately recognized as a flashy, luxury brand might go over better (if we're worried about what others think).
Also a huge generalization.
Plenty of "old money" wealthy folks drive luxury SUVs, very expensive vintage Land Rovers are all the rage among certain segments of "old wealth" folks.
I admit that it was a generalization. However, in my defense, I said "flashy luxury SUVs" and "New 6 figure Benz". A vintage Land Rover is not flashy, luxurious, or new even if they can be expensive.
I agree with you that "old money" absolutely flaunts wealth, they simply do it in different ways. And not necessarily in the ways that most people of lesser means might think. 6 figure vintage Land Rover or Bronco vs 6 figure new Benz is a great example. They're both expensive status symbols, but they appeal to different types of people for different reasons.
Most rich people who drive old SUVs I know have old SUVs because they bought them new a long time ago and hung onto them.
The recent trend of people buying old Defenders, Grand Wagoneers, etc, is to mimic the old money that bought those cars new and drove them for a long time; it’s new money trying to look old.
Post by: Metalcat on December 16, 2021, 12:08:05 PM
An option from Genesis might be worth considering as well. They tend to offer a lot more for your $, and they've got a far superior warranty so you can avoid paying high prices for service for a longer period of time.
I do not say this in jest - nobody who hangs around old money (or even new money for that matter) would ever be caught dead in a Genesis. It's only in recent years that Lexus is considered an 'acceptable' luxury brand.
Old money probably isn't buying flashy luxury SUVs in the first place. They'll scoff at the person in their new 6 figure, leased Benz just the same. I'd even argue that a truly luxurious purchase that isn't immediately recognized as a flashy, luxury brand might go over better (if we're worried about what others think).
Also a huge generalization.
Plenty of "old money" wealthy folks drive luxury SUVs, very expensive vintage Land Rovers are all the rage among certain segments of "old wealth" folks.
I admit that it was a generalization. However, in my defense, I said "flashy luxury SUVs" and "New 6 figure Benz". A vintage Land Rover is not flashy, luxurious, or new even if they can be expensive.
I agree with you that "old money" absolutely flaunts wealth, they simply do it in different ways. And not necessarily in the ways that most people of lesser means might think. 6 figure vintage Land Rover or Bronco vs 6 figure new Benz is a great example. They're both expensive status symbols, but they appeal to different types of people for different reasons.
You said "flashy luxury SUVs". To someone who knows how much a customized vintage Land Rover is, that *is* a flashy, luxury SUV.
Just because a lot of people don't know the item is a blatant status symbol doesn't mean it isn't a blatant status symbol.
No one except jewelers or people who have very expensive taste in jewelry ever clock my antique ruby ring as anything special, but that doesn't make it subtle. If you have any clue about jewelry, you will stop in your tracks and say "look at that ring!" when you see it.
I can't walk into a jewelry store without all of the staff wanting to take a look at it, but your average person just thinks it's a cute red ring.
There's a huge difference between being subtle and being obscure in your references.
Post by: Metalcat on December 16, 2021, 12:11:26 PM
An option from Genesis might be worth considering as well. They tend to offer a lot more for your $, and they've got a far superior warranty so you can avoid paying high prices for service for a longer period of time.
I do not say this in jest - nobody who hangs around old money (or even new money for that matter) would ever be caught dead in a Genesis. It's only in recent years that Lexus is considered an 'acceptable' luxury brand.
Old money probably isn't buying flashy luxury SUVs in the first place. They'll scoff at the person in their new 6 figure, leased Benz just the same. I'd even argue that a truly luxurious purchase that isn't immediately recognized as a flashy, luxury brand might go over better (if we're worried about what others think).
Also a huge generalization.
Plenty of "old money" wealthy folks drive luxury SUVs, very expensive vintage Land Rovers are all the rage among certain segments of "old wealth" folks.
I admit that it was a generalization. However, in my defense, I said "flashy luxury SUVs" and "New 6 figure Benz". A vintage Land Rover is not flashy, luxurious, or new even if they can be expensive.
I agree with you that "old money" absolutely flaunts wealth, they simply do it in different ways. And not necessarily in the ways that most people of lesser means might think. 6 figure vintage Land Rover or Bronco vs 6 figure new Benz is a great example. They're both expensive status symbols, but they appeal to different types of people for different reasons.
Most rich people who drive old SUVs I know have old SUVs because they bought them new a long time ago and hung onto them.
The recent trend of people buying old Defenders, Grand Wagoneers, etc, is to mimic the old money that bought those cars new and drove them for a long time; it’s new money trying to look old.
Again, this depends on the social circle.
"Old money" folks are people who grew up among wealth, so their own behaviours tend to consist of imitating people with wealth.
So for every older wealthy person who might still own their original Land Rover, there might be a neighbour's kid who sources a vintage one and has it customized to imitate their older wealthy neighbour because that's what's cool.
These are just people who are as susceptible to social pressures as everyone else. Nothing special.
Post by: daverobev on December 16, 2021, 12:34:43 PM
I would try and pick the best of a bad bunch/come to a compromise - but show the reliability rankings.
AFAIK yeah a Toyota Sienna is just the most solid thing you can get.
Post by: JAYSLOL on December 16, 2021, 09:29:48 PM
Post by: joe189man on December 16, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
the practicality of a minivan is unmatched and if bigger kids is really the goal no SUV provides the level of convivence a minivan provides. I'm the one in our family lusting after the big shiny new EV truck and I cannot come to terms with the amount of function we lose if we sell our honda odyssey and keep our ford escape. So IF we get an EV truck then the Ford escape goes and now I have 2 cars that do similar things. Where is the All EV minivan at that can tow 5k lbs for 250 miles is this too much to ask?
We have a honda odyessy which is a fantastic vehicle and i lust after the new hybrid toyota sienna as it gets ~35 mpg vs ~19 for the odyessy in town and ~26 mpg highway. I feel you on an electric truck, i want one, but check out the towing videos on youtube most electric cars/trucks can go ~100 miles then need to charge while towing.
OP - Maybe try for the hybrid Toyota Sienna?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on December 17, 2021, 07:37:25 AM
Post by: gooki on December 17, 2021, 12:18:24 PM
Post by: JoePublic3.14 on December 17, 2021, 02:54:18 PM
the practicality of a minivan is unmatched and if bigger kids is really the goal no SUV provides the level of convivence a minivan provides.
Yeah, this. Every time I see someone in a minivan I am jealous. They ride better than most vehicles, handle better than most vehicles, haul more than any vehicle, and so on.
Good luck OP.
Post by: HPstache on December 17, 2021, 03:01:16 PM
I would definitely try to split the difference between a Mercedes SUV and a CRV and go with a Lexus SUV or Acura SUV. Both are equally luxurious feeling as a Mercedes, but have Honda/Toyota quality and resale value
This is what I would attempt do as well as long as I wasn't breaking any promises.
Post by: JLee on December 17, 2021, 03:08:42 PM
Otherwise, used Lexus GX460 for ~$22k?
Post by: Chris22 on December 17, 2021, 03:28:14 PM
If you're set on spending that kind of money do consider the Rivian RS1. At least that way it'll have some resale value in 5-10 years, and your wife can lord her eco creed over her polluting millionaire associates.
It will be interesting to see if that bears true.
There’s one school of thought that says when (if?) you can no longer buy new gas cars, well kept used gas cars will be in high demand.
Another says that once EVs are a little more advanced no one will want gas cars. However, that would likely obsolete all of the current EVs as well; a current EV might be as popular as a 3rd Gen iPhone is today, I.e. worthless.
So it may bear out that a Rivian will command a premium in 5-10 years, or the tech may move so fast making it worthless. Or Rivian as a company could fail, orphaning the Rivian and also making it near worthless.
A lot of possibilities. Myself, I hedged my bets against obsolescence by leasing my PHEV, I think the tech is moving too fast to invest too heavily into it yet, unless someone wants a Tesla, those tend to hold their value far more than any other EV.
Post by: nedwin on December 17, 2021, 03:43:05 PM
Post by: Radagast on December 18, 2021, 09:27:22 AM
Delay seems like an unfair tactic at this point- as you've said you met the savings goal, and your spouse is at the point , 6 years later, where they feel they need a new vehicle - due to family size.Strictly we have not met the savings goal, as our NW has never had two commas by any measure for any length of time, and definitely not after adjusting to generic or vehicle inflation. But, close enough I guess.
Mercedes has been making the GL-350 for several years now i think. Why not buy a low mile 2017-2020 model at a substantial savings to buying new?
It sounds like the Civic is not going to be a factor for trade-in value [?] - at least not to the point of massively offsetting the cost of a new car / sales taxes on new car.
Who will be driving this aspirational car mostly ? Is the spouse contributing to the future payment, or using their cash ? If it is not you as the primary driver, and they contribute $$, maybe you should ease up, and let them make the choice. You've already held them back for the last 6 years, is that not a big enough win ?
What is holding you back from trading your Forrester for a sweet Sienna for yourself to drive ?
The GLE and X5 made major improvements in 2020, which made newer vehicles much nicer, especially on the inside. It is hard to get 2020+ used, and the price difference from new in current market is not large. Older ones are available, but not as nice, and also inflated compared to years past.
Spouse makes enough money to pay, but expects the vehicle to be associated with baby rather than spouse, which is what I object to, because I drop baby at day care 3 days a week, making me the primary driver :-|.
Last thing we need is to spend money on two vehicles!
Post by: Radagast on December 18, 2021, 09:37:09 AM
My understanding is that children getting bigger is a frequent excuse for a new car, although not necessarily a good one. But I'm British so a Honda Civic seems pretty big to me as cars go, and unless your kids are especially giant sized or spending many hours in the car every day perfectly adequate in size.The Honda civic is actually large enough for sure. The two doors are an advantage for a baby in a car seat, because I can put baby in the back, put the seat back in place, and get in without even moving my feet. I am the envy of every Range Rover driving mom. But soon baby and car seat will need to be removed separately, and four doors will then be very advantageous.
The SUV thing also seems to be something of a lost cause in the USA. A stupid sort of vehicle which is basically a camel designed by a committee to get round a provision in the tax code, yes? But again, seems to have some sort of status which is nothing to do with what it actually is. Yay for wealthy friend in the minivan.
SUV's aren't entirely bad. As they become more mainstream and are pressured for better efficiency, there has been a strong trend towards lower roofs, rounded corners, and lower grills. They are not all the way to wagons yet though. They are more spacious per unit of length, and except for the absurd ones are generally at a better height for human interaction.
Post by: Radagast on December 18, 2021, 09:41:00 AM
There's a Lincoln Aviator PHEV too. It's got more hp, more torque, and more electric range than the Volvo PHEVs, and doesn't require expensive premium fuel.Considered it. Options made it expensive fast, more expensive in fact. Spouse desires certain brands (specifically German), and I am not inclined to push for a more expensive vehicle which is not one of those brands.
Post by: Radagast on December 18, 2021, 09:42:25 AM
If somebody is dead set on a Mercedes SUV (horrible quality, horrible resale value, pretty much horrible everything), there's no amount of mustachian logic that can be used to fight it.Yup, that's basically the situation.
Besides, it sounds like you had a deal- reneging now would be very unfair.
Buy it, enjoy it, hope that they learn that Mercedes luxury isn't all it's cracked up to be and maybe buy something more practical next time.
Post by: Radagast on December 18, 2021, 09:52:19 AM
If somebody is dead set on a Mercedes SUV (horrible quality, horrible resale value, pretty much horrible everything), there's no amount of mustachian logic that can be used to fight it.
Yup.
@Radagast This seems like a great time to lease a vehicle. 36 months from now, it'll probably be out of your wife's system, and you won't be stuck with the albatross of an aging luxury suv. If she turns out to really, really love it, you can always buy the lease out.
Spouse grew up in deep poverty, both in an absolute sense, and relative to peers. Upon coming of age spouse was then suddenly thrust into an age of rampant consumerism. Spouse is in no way against having $1M, is well aware of the power of saving and the benefit of financial security, and is capable of as much frugality as anyone, but also has a mental urge to demonstrate wealth and success to self and others on occasion. Not with little things, and really just with the vehicle and a nice house. So leasing is out: spouse desires to own the vehicle, and not even so much to drive it, as I am under pressure to be the primary driver....Any new or newish car these days seems to me to meet the definition of "luxury" (air con, entertainment system, comfortable ride, safety features, etc.) so I suspect that this element is mostly about perception and status and the badge on the vehicle. But given how long you've been following mustachian values if this hasn't sunk in with your spouse yet it probably never will, and also probably isn't worth wrecking a marriage over...
I suppose these issues spill over into more areas than just this vehicle purchase. I've seen some of your other posts, Radagast, but not much discussion of how your wife plays into mustachian lifestyle FIRE plans or her thoughts on it.
Post by: Radagast on December 18, 2021, 10:03:17 AM
Spouse has no use for big engines, and thinks exterior trim packages almost always make things look worse and too aggressive. So no need for AMG, thankfully.Naturally spouse went straight for the most expensive one on the list: Mercedes GLE 350 4Matic, new, the one without tax credits for PHEV or the resulting lower fuel demand.
Nah, you're lucky she picked a lower end model. Does the she want the AMG packages?
The top of the line GLE is the AMG GLE 53 4MATIC+ SUV, starts at $73,550.
@caleb is right, you're better off leasing (at ~$750/mo for 36 months).
With friends/acquaintances who've bought MB SUVs new and via CPO, I can tell you there will be some issue annually. When there is an issue, make your wife sort it out as it is her car, she wanted it.
For the price of the model your wife wants, I'd prefer to go with the Lexus GX. Still a gas guzzler, but with the legendary Toyota reliability.
Another silver lining is that though spouse dislikes round Teslas, but also dislikes boxy GXs, Navigators, GLSs, and such.
Post by: former player on December 18, 2021, 10:46:47 AM
This sounds quite hopeful to me, on the basis that a single purchase of a new Merc might well be enough to satisfy the mental urge - particularly if the experience of owning the dratted thing over a period of time proves to be less satisfactory than imagined. I would suggest that you give in with good grace, pay for the fuel and repairs with good grace, and gently revisit the notion of owning a premium German brand truck when it becomes irrevocably unrepairable.If somebody is dead set on a Mercedes SUV (horrible quality, horrible resale value, pretty much horrible everything), there's no amount of mustachian logic that can be used to fight it.
Yup.
@Radagast This seems like a great time to lease a vehicle. 36 months from now, it'll probably be out of your wife's system, and you won't be stuck with the albatross of an aging luxury suv. If she turns out to really, really love it, you can always buy the lease out.Spouse grew up in deep poverty, both in an absolute sense, and relative to peers. Upon coming of age spouse was then suddenly thrust into an age of rampant consumerism. Spouse is in no way against having $1M, is well aware of the power of saving and the benefit of financial security, and is capable of as much frugality as anyone, but also has a mental urge to demonstrate wealth and success to self and others on occasion. Not with little things, and really just with the vehicle and a nice house. So leasing is out: spouse desires to own the vehicle, and not even so much to drive it, as I am under pressure to be the primary driver....Any new or newish car these days seems to me to meet the definition of "luxury" (air con, entertainment system, comfortable ride, safety features, etc.) so I suspect that this element is mostly about perception and status and the badge on the vehicle. But given how long you've been following mustachian values if this hasn't sunk in with your spouse yet it probably never will, and also probably isn't worth wrecking a marriage over...
I suppose these issues spill over into more areas than just this vehicle purchase. I've seen some of your other posts, Radagast, but not much discussion of how your wife plays into mustachian lifestyle FIRE plans or her thoughts on it.
Post by: Dave1442397 on December 18, 2021, 12:36:12 PM
This is the latest US review that I've seen (this morning) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYXo4HAwb_M
Post by: Radagast on December 18, 2021, 04:57:51 PM
Is the RAV4 Prime too small?/Not luxurious enough?Correct on all counts! Well technically a RAV4 is large enough, but it would really need to check all the other boxes.
Does the Hyundai Ioniq 5 have the right SUV shape?
Look at the Hyundai Ioniq 5, which seems to be coming out in the US at last.Classic example. People who hang out on MMM definitely fail to comprehend buyers of luxury name brand vehicles. If an Ioniq would suffice I won't have posted in Anti-Mustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy now would I? ;-)
This is the latest US review that I've seen (this morning) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYXo4HAwb_M
Post by: Radagast on December 18, 2021, 05:00:46 PM
Consider that all cars and SUVs are selling at a premium right now b/c of COVID supply chain problems. This might be the worst time in 30 years to buy a vehicle. When I visited the Acura dealer a month or so ago for a taillight gasket recall - they had TWO new vehicles available and a dozen used vehicles from a variety of brands.Totally. I'd say it is the worst time since assembly lines were converted to tanks in WWII. They are all like that. We haven't even been able to see half the models we have looked for, if anything is available it's usually a 3-year old CPO, or some totally different brand.
Post by: Chris Pascale on December 18, 2021, 06:07:13 PM
I promised spouse would get it after we had $1M.................We are nearly to $1M
Cars are just garbage cans you can drive around.
Having said that, if my wife and I had any deal, and she reneged on it after I delayed gratification to the level she agreed upon, she might have to consider if she ever wants to get laid again. Obviously, she would, because I'm not the scoundrel who withholds on promises.
Now, I really respect the delaying tactic. I did this with pets. When we were first married - when we qualified for welfare but were too dumb to take it - she wanted a dog.....or a ferret.....or some kind of pet. Between the 2 of us we had an average education of 11th grade (I had some college credits and she had a year of formal high school before getting a GED), but as parents we were determined that we'd become educated and give our kids a better life. AND THAT WAS THE DELAY.
2006: We agreed she could get the pet of her choice after she got a bachelor's degree.
2012: We were in our final undergrad semesters when a farmer with a litter of kittens needed to get rid of them.
Was I thrilled to have a cat? Am I happy she peed on a towel last night because I probably angered her in some way? Has being a cat owner been the silver lining in this wretched cloud called life?
No.
But I gave my word, and my word is my motherfucking bond.
Please consider what your word is worth, and proceed as you must.
Post by: scottish on December 18, 2021, 08:04:33 PM
I mean, you did give your word, right?
Post by: uniwelder on December 18, 2021, 08:32:06 PM
Spouse makes enough money to pay, but expects the vehicle to be associated with baby rather than spouse, which is what I object to, because I drop baby at day care 3 days a week, making me the primary driver :-|.
Last thing we need is to spend money on two vehicles!
Radagast-- Tell me if this is all correct. You also have a Subaru Forester (that you're keeping) and Honda Civic (to be replaced with new car). Your wife wants to buy and show off the Mercedes, but expects you to drive it primarily, which you object to. Is there a reason the Subaru can't be driven by you to bring the baby to day care? I feel like I'm missing something. If the promise was that the new car would be bought when you hit the 1M milestone, how does it fit in that you have to drive it? Seems like your wife is crossing a line there imposing herself on you. With the ridiculous amount of money being spent here, just get two carseats so swapping them out isn't even an issue.
Post by: gooki on December 18, 2021, 11:46:31 PM
Post by: six-car-habit on December 19, 2021, 02:54:14 AM
Cars are just garbage cans you can drive around.
This quote has me wondering ? Is it meant as an anti-car statement ?
Are trains, planes, and busses just extra-large garbage cans for people to be transported from place to place...
A fair amount of people keep the inside of their cars clean. If you had a car would you fill the inside with trash, old food, etc ?
anyhow -
" Spouse makes enough money to pay, but expects the vehicle to be associated with baby rather than spouse, which is what I object to, because I drop baby at day care 3 days a week, making me the primary driver :-|."
Well since it's meant to be the baby's primary ride, maybe you'll be driving the GL-350 on days you bring the child to day-care ?
Post by: Chris Pascale on December 19, 2021, 07:32:16 AM
Cars are just garbage cans you can drive around.
This quote has me wondering ? Is it meant as an anti-car statement ?
Are trains, planes, and busses just extra-large garbage cans for people to be transported from place to place...
A fair amount of people keep the inside of their cars clean. If you had a car would you fill the inside with trash, old food, etc ?
anyhow -
" Spouse makes enough money to pay, but expects the vehicle to be associated with baby rather than spouse, which is what I object to, because I drop baby at day care 3 days a week, making me the primary driver :-|."
Well since it's meant to be the baby's primary ride, maybe you'll be driving the GL-350 on days you bring the child to day-care ?
Cars are necessary, but dumb, so I keep mine as long as possible. Had a 1990 Plymouth Acclaim from 2004-2010, a 1997 Ford Explorer from 2010-2019, and am currently keeping my 2010 Honda Odyssey (a very nice vehicle we got in 2012) as long as I can.
Post by: NaN on December 19, 2021, 07:48:00 AM
At least you can take comfort in all the other Mustachian things you are doing. Hopefully this can be a good laugh for your wife and you in the future and a lesson you can share to your kids about keeping promises, being honest up front.
Post by: PhilB on December 19, 2021, 08:13:51 AM
Post by: Chris Pascale on December 19, 2021, 10:30:40 AM
You promised you'd get it, but you didn't promise you'd drive it. I would just make it clear in advance that a promise is a promise so if she still wants it she can have it, but that driving it doesn't fit with your values and would make you feel uncomfortable so you'll be taking the kids in the old car. At least that way it'll have lower mileage when you come to sell it!
Unless details are missing, I 100% agree.
Maintain your word, but feel free not to drive it. But if you do drive it, it's okay.
Post by: former player on December 19, 2021, 11:57:19 AM
You promised you'd get it, but you didn't promise you'd drive it. I would just make it clear in advance that a promise is a promise so if she still wants it she can have it, but that driving it doesn't fit with your values and would make you feel uncomfortable so you'll be taking the kids in the old car. At least that way it'll have lower mileage when you come to sell it!But if he doesn't drive it, his wife won't get the benefit of having her friends seeing her baby being delivered to daycare by her husband in a Merc every day. /s
Post by: RWD on December 19, 2021, 12:01:06 PM
Classic example. People who hang out on MMM definitely fail to comprehend buyers of luxury name brand vehicles. If an Ioniq would suffice I won't have posted in Anti-Mustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy now would I? ;-)But does the Mercedes have power sliding rear seats with memory settings? ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToR5RPt-t3E
Post by: Just Joe on December 19, 2021, 02:03:06 PM
Also - you could look at one of the smaller upscale SUVs. The Acura RDX for example is a CRV in a party dress. Its a really nice two row SUV.
All the other luxury brands have something similar.
Post by: ilsy on December 19, 2021, 02:19:06 PM
I prefer to think where would I invest my money next year, now that I'm FI and paid off my primary residence (my investment properties had never had a mortgage) while driving my Subaru Impreza 2013 bought brand new with cash till my daughter gets it (possibly next year). Then, I would probably buy another brand new Subaru for myself and pay with cash, unless there is a 0% financing.
I work (just because with the current job market there are no people who can replace me) with wealthy ocular surgeons, sometimes their filled tax forms get printed on my printer accidentally (not sure why would someone who makes $700k- $1mln a year and files taxes with a private company, still needs to print the return at work?). Anyways, being able to say, "well guys, its been a privilege but I am leaving now and won't be coming to work tomorrow and I couldn't care less about your two weeks notice and no amount of money will make me stay because I don't need to work for a living" is pretty empowering and I don't feel the need to drive anything luxurious like their wives do, to make me feel like I've made it. In fact, once I shared that with some docs, the power table had turned (it could be that the real reason I work now is the power trip I get every day), one actually apologized (a doc apologized !!!) for being a jerk.
Post by: Metalcat on December 19, 2021, 02:22:58 PM
That's why I don't want to get married.
I prefer to think where would I invest my money next year, now that I'm FI and paid off my primary residence (my investment properties had never had a mortgage) while driving my Subaru Impreza 2013 bought brand new with cash till my daughter gets it (possibly next year). Then, I would probably buy another brand new Subaru for myself and pay with cash, unless there is a 0% financing.
I work (just because with the current job market there are no people who can replace me) with wealthy ocular surgeons, sometimes their filled tax forms get printed on my printer accidentally (not sure why would someone who makes $700k- $1mln a year and files taxes with a private company, still needs to print the return at work?). Anyways, being able to say, "well guys, its been a privilege but I am leaving now and won't be coming to work tomorrow and I couldn't care less about your two weeks notice and no amount of money will make me stay because I don't need to work for a living" is pretty empowering and I don't feel the need to drive anything luxurious like their wives do, to make me feel like I've made it. In fact, once I shared that with some docs, the power table had turned (it could be that the real reason I work now is the power trip I get every day), one actually apologized (a doc apologized !!!) for being a jerk.
Or...don't marry someone who likes luxury cars if that matters to you in a partner???
Post by: ilsy on December 19, 2021, 02:42:59 PM
That's why I don't want to get married.
I prefer to think where would I invest my money next year, now that I'm FI and paid off my primary residence (my investment properties had never had a mortgage) while driving my Subaru Impreza 2013 bought brand new with cash till my daughter gets it (possibly next year). Then, I would probably buy another brand new Subaru for myself and pay with cash, unless there is a 0% financing.
I work (just because with the current job market there are no people who can replace me) with wealthy ocular surgeons, sometimes their filled tax forms get printed on my printer accidentally (not sure why would someone who makes $700k- $1mln a year and files taxes with a private company, still needs to print the return at work?). Anyways, being able to say, "well guys, its been a privilege but I am leaving now and won't be coming to work tomorrow and I couldn't care less about your two weeks notice and no amount of money will make me stay because I don't need to work for a living" is pretty empowering and I don't feel the need to drive anything luxurious like their wives do, to make me feel like I've made it. In fact, once I shared that with some docs, the power table had turned (it could be that the real reason I work now is the power trip I get every day), one actually apologized (a doc apologized !!!) for being a jerk.
Or...don't marry someone who likes luxury cars if that matters to you in a partner???
True, I personally connect that to a low self esteem, so it would be don't marry someone with a low self esteem. Usually people don't introduce themselves, "hey, I'm Jim, I have a low self esteem."
Post by: Metalcat on December 19, 2021, 03:43:54 PM
That's why I don't want to get married.
I prefer to think where would I invest my money next year, now that I'm FI and paid off my primary residence (my investment properties had never had a mortgage) while driving my Subaru Impreza 2013 bought brand new with cash till my daughter gets it (possibly next year). Then, I would probably buy another brand new Subaru for myself and pay with cash, unless there is a 0% financing.
I work (just because with the current job market there are no people who can replace me) with wealthy ocular surgeons, sometimes their filled tax forms get printed on my printer accidentally (not sure why would someone who makes $700k- $1mln a year and files taxes with a private company, still needs to print the return at work?). Anyways, being able to say, "well guys, its been a privilege but I am leaving now and won't be coming to work tomorrow and I couldn't care less about your two weeks notice and no amount of money will make me stay because I don't need to work for a living" is pretty empowering and I don't feel the need to drive anything luxurious like their wives do, to make me feel like I've made it. In fact, once I shared that with some docs, the power table had turned (it could be that the real reason I work now is the power trip I get every day), one actually apologized (a doc apologized !!!) for being a jerk.
Or...don't marry someone who likes luxury cars if that matters to you in a partner???
True, I personally connect that to a low self esteem, so it would be don't marry someone with a low self esteem. Usually people don't introduce themselves, "hey, I'm Jim, I have a low self esteem."
I think that's an unfair judgement. We have members here who are brilliant, confident people who like expensive cars.
However, if you want to find out what someone thinks about expensive cars, you can just ask them. Most people LOVE to talk about their car preferences.
Post by: Loren Ver on December 19, 2021, 05:17:03 PM
That's why I don't want to get married.
I prefer to think where would I invest my money next year, now that I'm FI and paid off my primary residence (my investment properties had never had a mortgage) while driving my Subaru Impreza 2013 bought brand new with cash till my daughter gets it (possibly next year). Then, I would probably buy another brand new Subaru for myself and pay with cash, unless there is a 0% financing.
I work (just because with the current job market there are no people who can replace me) with wealthy ocular surgeons, sometimes their filled tax forms get printed on my printer accidentally (not sure why would someone who makes $700k- $1mln a year and files taxes with a private company, still needs to print the return at work?). Anyways, being able to say, "well guys, its been a privilege but I am leaving now and won't be coming to work tomorrow and I couldn't care less about your two weeks notice and no amount of money will make me stay because I don't need to work for a living" is pretty empowering and I don't feel the need to drive anything luxurious like their wives do, to make me feel like I've made it. In fact, once I shared that with some docs, the power table had turned (it could be that the real reason I work now is the power trip I get every day), one actually apologized (a doc apologized !!!) for being a jerk.
That's oddly specific, considering most people in the driving parts of the world don't seem to care much about the specific vehicles. Or is it less specific and you just don't want someone else's idiosyncrasies bumping up against your idiosyncrasies? That would make more sense, since marriage is a lot of accommodating two very individual people.
Loren
Post by: Radagast on December 19, 2021, 05:37:15 PM
OP, what 'it' did you promise? A Mercedes? An SUV? A new car?"Promise" is really to strong a word, and not what I actually used. It was more like, in 2016 spouse suggested wanting an X5, and I said something like "those are really expensive to maintain, and a used one is about as much as our Subie. The Subie is only a couple years old, and is an all around amazing vehicle at everything. Besides, I walk to work, so we don't even need another car. Buying an X5 will make it much harder to become millionaires, which my spreadsheet predicts will happen in about 8 years. Let's just wait until we are millionaires."
I would try and pick the best of a bad bunch/come to a compromise - but show the reliability rankings.
AFAIK yeah a Toyota Sienna is just the most solid thing you can get.
Ultimately spouse gets to choose, I don't feel like there was an particular promise. The X5 isn't looking as good now that we have looked around though.
As of this weekend minivans are out. We don't need 7 spacious seats at this time, so may as well get an SUV.
Post by: Radagast on December 19, 2021, 05:41:58 PM
I would definitely try to split the difference between a Mercedes SUV and a CRV and go with a Lexus SUV or Acura SUV. Both are equally luxurious feeling as a Mercedes, but have Honda/Toyota quality and resale valueYeah, that would be a good compromise. Acura was recently eliminated, the RDX apparently wasn't as nice to drive as a Forester, let alone a real luxury vehicle. Plus the dealership experience was disappointing because it was very cold when we went there, and upon getting in the car to test it the salesperson didn't think to turn on the heated seats or even heater for several minutes.
Lexus is still in the books, but I expect it will not stay there.
Post by: Radagast on December 19, 2021, 05:48:26 PM
Where are people getting the idea that promises are being broken? If I had changed my spouse's mind I wouldn't be posting here would I?You made a promise to your wife.
I'm not sure there's much more to discuss here. Don't make promises you don't intend to keep. That's shady as fuck.
This. Doesn't matter what OP thinks about it, they made an agreement. Breaking that agreement now, when the conditions have been met, is going to damage the relationship.
Besides, this is not even really something which can be avoided. Spouse is a fully grown adult, earning half the household income, with plenty of money and great credit. There is close to a 100% chance that I will find a mercedes in the driveway within the next year regardless. At least two of spouses friends have done so recently (one who waits tables and probably should not have, one a much older high-earning nurse who likely had no problems). I am just trying to turn it into the least worst financial choice I can ;).
Post by: Radagast on December 19, 2021, 05:52:29 PM
Yeah basically. A Subaru Forester, though not as safe as a new Merc or Volvo (less weight, less technology), is still a very safe vehicle, the safest of its class in that model year. We are still working this out. I would not feel comfortable driving something fancier than a Volvo.Spouse makes enough money to pay, but expects the vehicle to be associated with baby rather than spouse, which is what I object to, because I drop baby at day care 3 days a week, making me the primary driver :-|.
Last thing we need is to spend money on two vehicles!
Radagast-- Tell me if this is all correct. You also have a Subaru Forester (that you're keeping) and Honda Civic (to be replaced with new car). Your wife wants to buy and show off the Mercedes, but expects you to drive it primarily, which you object to. Is there a reason the Subaru can't be driven by you to bring the baby to day care? I feel like I'm missing something. If the promise was that the new car would be bought when you hit the 1M milestone, how does it fit in that you have to drive it? Seems like your wife is crossing a line there imposing herself on you. With the ridiculous amount of money being spent here, just get two carseats so swapping them out isn't even an issue.
Post by: RWD on December 19, 2021, 05:55:45 PM
Post by: Metalcat on December 19, 2021, 05:57:58 PM
Where are people getting the idea that promises are being broken? If I had changed my spouse's mind I wouldn't be posting here would I?You made a promise to your wife.
I'm not sure there's much more to discuss here. Don't make promises you don't intend to keep. That's shady as fuck.
This. Doesn't matter what OP thinks about it, they made an agreement. Breaking that agreement now, when the conditions have been met, is going to damage the relationship.
Besides, this is not even really something which can be avoided. Spouse is a fully grown adult, earning half the household income, with plenty of money and great credit. There is close to a 100% chance that I will find a mercedes in the driveway within the next year regardless. At least two of spouses friends have done so recently (one who waits tables and probably should not have, one a much older high-earning nurse who likely had no problems). I am just trying to turn it into the least worst financial choice I can ;).
You used the word "promise" and perhaps I'm wrong, but your post seemed to be asking for strategies to get out of that promise.
My apologies if I got the wrong impression, but that's how it seemed to me when I replied.
Post by: Villanelle on December 19, 2021, 06:51:44 PM
But I would draw the line at my spouse dictating what car I drive. If she wants to be able to choose the car she wants despite your feelings about it, then you should get the same respect.
I'd make that clear. And maybe that will even change her mind, but if not, she can drive her fancy car 2x/week to day care drop off and you can drive your Subaru.
Post by: Chris Pascale on December 19, 2021, 08:02:55 PM
Now that we've raked you over the coals about not being a promise-breaking-maniac, and you've very patiently been like, 'dudes, what the fuck are you talking about?' what vehicle do you think it will be?
Also, while it makes sense you might be the one driving it sometimes, is your wife receptive to the fact that there are times when Junior may not feel the seamless connection of luxury-wheel-to-road, but, instead, suffer the Subie?
Post by: JAYSLOL on December 19, 2021, 08:44:47 PM
I would definitely try to split the difference between a Mercedes SUV and a CRV and go with a Lexus SUV or Acura SUV. Both are equally luxurious feeling as a Mercedes, but have Honda/Toyota quality and resale valueYeah, that would be a good compromise. Acura was recently eliminated, the RDX apparently wasn't as nice to drive as a Forester, let alone a real luxury vehicle. Plus the dealership experience was disappointing because it was very cold when we went there, and upon getting in the car to test it the salesperson didn't think to turn on the heated seats or even heater for several minutes.
Lexus is still in the books, but I expect it will not stay there.
Well, good luck, if you can swing her to a Lexus that would be awesome, but happy wife is happy life, so if she’s set on the Mercedes go for it, even including the higher expect maintenance and bigger drop in resale value, it’s not exactly a big dent in your net worth. I’d kill to be nearing a mil lol.
Post by: Radagast on December 19, 2021, 10:07:47 PM
I basically see two alternatives:Where are people getting the idea that promises are being broken? If I had changed my spouse's mind I wouldn't be posting here would I?You made a promise to your wife.
I'm not sure there's much more to discuss here. Don't make promises you don't intend to keep. That's shady as fuck.
This. Doesn't matter what OP thinks about it, they made an agreement. Breaking that agreement now, when the conditions have been met, is going to damage the relationship.
Besides, this is not even really something which can be avoided. Spouse is a fully grown adult, earning half the household income, with plenty of money and great credit. There is close to a 100% chance that I will find a mercedes in the driveway within the next year regardless. At least two of spouses friends have done so recently (one who waits tables and probably should not have, one a much older high-earning nurse who likely had no problems). I am just trying to turn it into the least worst financial choice I can ;).
You used the word "promise" and perhaps I'm wrong, but your post seemed to be asking for strategies to get out of that promise.
My apologies if I got the wrong impression, but that's how it seemed to me when I replied.
1) I change spouse's mind into happily accepting something else. If both spouses agree enthusiastically that this is how agreement is settled, then no broken promises.
2) I do not change spouse's mind, and we end up with the titular vehicle. No broken promises then either.
Realistically I don't see any solution in which a promise could be broken.
Actually I think the worst case outcome is if I persuade spouse to get a vehicle which is new and expensive but yet not quite acceptable, and three years later we end up with both that AND a lux SUV.
Post by: Radagast on December 19, 2021, 10:11:00 PM
I am not entirely sure, but I think an overly stiff suspension may have been the big problem with the Acura. A Lexus is supposed to be floatier, so it may still have a chance.I would definitely try to split the difference between a Mercedes SUV and a CRV and go with a Lexus SUV or Acura SUV. Both are equally luxurious feeling as a Mercedes, but have Honda/Toyota quality and resale valueYeah, that would be a good compromise. Acura was recently eliminated, the RDX apparently wasn't as nice to drive as a Forester, let alone a real luxury vehicle. Plus the dealership experience was disappointing because it was very cold when we went there, and upon getting in the car to test it the salesperson didn't think to turn on the heated seats or even heater for several minutes.
Lexus is still in the books, but I expect it will not stay there.
Well, good luck, if you can swing her to a Lexus that would be awesome, but happy wife is happy life, so if she’s set on the Mercedes go for it, even including the higher expect maintenance and bigger drop in resale value, it’s not exactly a big dent in your net worth. I’d kill to be nearing a mil lol.
Post by: Radagast on December 19, 2021, 10:14:27 PM
That does look super nice! Actually that size styling would be acceptable if it got everything else right. There are two basic problems with it though:Classic example. People who hang out on MMM definitely fail to comprehend buyers of luxury name brand vehicles. If an Ioniq would suffice I won't have posted in Anti-Mustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy now would I? ;-)But does the Mercedes have power sliding rear seats with memory settings? ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToR5RPt-t3E
1. wrong brand!
2. not available for like another year
Maybe as the next vehicle :`D
Post by: Radagast on December 19, 2021, 10:25:24 PM
@RadagastIt is really hard to say. Spouse was brought up to be frugal, and has been getting cold feet with that amount of money. I think it will come down to a Mercedes E350/450, Volvo XC90, or something much less expensive like Honda CRV or another Subie. A part of this is that I am making it clear this is not my decision. The conversation goes like: me: "A Volvo XC90 will cost about $30,000 less than Mercedes after 10 years, including lost investments. Plus it has three fully useable rows, and is a plug-in hybrid, so it's better than the E350. Heck, it's even faster." Spouse: "So you are getting the Volvo?". Me: "No! You are getting the Volvo. Unless you don't want it." And then spouse feels uncomfortable being the one to make a decision to buy a $70,000 car. But I am definitely not making that decision.
Now that we've raked you over the coals about not being a promise-breaking-maniac, and you've very patiently been like, 'dudes, what the fuck are you talking about?' what vehicle do you think it will be?
Also, while it makes sense you might be the one driving it sometimes, is your wife receptive to the fact that there are times when Junior may not feel the seamless connection of luxury-wheel-to-road, but, instead, suffer the Subie?
I think it is inevitable that baby will ride in the Forester at times.
Post by: ilsy on December 19, 2021, 11:17:22 PM
That's why I don't want to get married.
I prefer to think where would I invest my money next year, now that I'm FI and paid off my primary residence (my investment properties had never had a mortgage) while driving my Subaru Impreza 2013 bought brand new with cash till my daughter gets it (possibly next year). Then, I would probably buy another brand new Subaru for myself and pay with cash, unless there is a 0% financing.
I work (just because with the current job market there are no people who can replace me) with wealthy ocular surgeons, sometimes their filled tax forms get printed on my printer accidentally (not sure why would someone who makes $700k- $1mln a year and files taxes with a private company, still needs to print the return at work?). Anyways, being able to say, "well guys, its been a privilege but I am leaving now and won't be coming to work tomorrow and I couldn't care less about your two weeks notice and no amount of money will make me stay because I don't need to work for a living" is pretty empowering and I don't feel the need to drive anything luxurious like their wives do, to make me feel like I've made it. In fact, once I shared that with some docs, the power table had turned (it could be that the real reason I work now is the power trip I get every day), one actually apologized (a doc apologized !!!) for being a jerk.
Or...don't marry someone who likes luxury cars if that matters to you in a partner???
True, I personally connect that to a low self esteem, so it would be don't marry someone with a low self esteem. Usually people don't introduce themselves, "hey, I'm Jim, I have a low self esteem."
I think that's an unfair judgement. We have members here who are brilliant, confident people who like expensive cars.
However, if you want to find out what someone thinks about expensive cars, you can just ask them. Most people LOVE to talk about their car preferences.
Well, I'll stick to my guns, since it's my personal opinion based, of course, on an anecdotal personal experience (not the online one), but proven to be always true so far. Usually, with the "brilliant" ones it is very very hard to figure out their insecurities because they are covered by layers and layers of defense mechanisms to hide exactly that - the low self esteem.
That's why I don't want to get married.
I prefer to think where would I invest my money next year, now that I'm FI and paid off my primary residence (my investment properties had never had a mortgage) while driving my Subaru Impreza 2013 bought brand new with cash till my daughter gets it (possibly next year). Then, I would probably buy another brand new Subaru for myself and pay with cash, unless there is a 0% financing.
I work (just because with the current job market there are no people who can replace me) with wealthy ocular surgeons, sometimes their filled tax forms get printed on my printer accidentally (not sure why would someone who makes $700k- $1mln a year and files taxes with a private company, still needs to print the return at work?). Anyways, being able to say, "well guys, its been a privilege but I am leaving now and won't be coming to work tomorrow and I couldn't care less about your two weeks notice and no amount of money will make me stay because I don't need to work for a living" is pretty empowering and I don't feel the need to drive anything luxurious like their wives do, to make me feel like I've made it. In fact, once I shared that with some docs, the power table had turned (it could be that the real reason I work now is the power trip I get every day), one actually apologized (a doc apologized !!!) for being a jerk.
That's oddly specific, considering most people in the driving parts of the world don't seem to care much about the specific vehicles. Or is it less specific and you just don't want someone else's idiosyncrasies bumping up against your idiosyncrasies? That would make more sense, since marriage is a lot of accommodating two very individual people.
Loren
Could be, it's just very hard for me to imagine my single life being preoccupied with the issue of "Spouse wants luxury SUV" for 6 years !!! I can't even remember what I was preoccupied with 6 years ago, well, probably with "should I invest in this property or not?" And my preoccupation had lasted for several hours only!!! And I would rather be preoccupied with that... and on my own (just an FYI, a very big reason for my divorce was my ex being absolutely against me investing in RE). If I was into luxury vehicles as much as I'm into RE, I would have divorced the guy and bought the car I wanted instead of waiting for 6 years!!! But I happen to think that liking a luxury car is a sign of a low self esteem.
Post by: moof on December 20, 2021, 12:01:35 AM
You made a promise to your wife.This. Smile and be supportive. It will still be cheaper than divorce. By a lot.
I'm not sure there's much more to discuss here. Don't make promises you don't intend to keep. That's shady as fuck.
Post by: former player on December 20, 2021, 01:58:59 AM
$70k for a car????? Holy. Fuck.@RadagastIt is really hard to say. Spouse was brought up to be frugal, and has been getting cold feet with that amount of money. I think it will come down to a Mercedes E350/450, Volvo XC90, or something much less expensive like Honda CRV or another Subie. A part of this is that I am making it clear this is not my decision. The conversation goes like: me: "A Volvo XC90 will cost about $30,000 less than Mercedes after 10 years, including lost investments. Plus it has three fully useable rows, and is a plug-in hybrid, so it's better than the E350. Heck, it's even faster." Spouse: "So you are getting the Volvo?". Me: "No! You are getting the Volvo. Unless you don't want it." And then spouse feels uncomfortable being the one to make a decision to buy a $70,000 car. But I am definitely not making that decision.
Now that we've raked you over the coals about not being a promise-breaking-maniac, and you've very patiently been like, 'dudes, what the fuck are you talking about?' what vehicle do you think it will be?
Also, while it makes sense you might be the one driving it sometimes, is your wife receptive to the fact that there are times when Junior may not feel the seamless connection of luxury-wheel-to-road, but, instead, suffer the Subie?
I think it is inevitable that baby will ride in the Forester at times.
Post by: PhilB on December 20, 2021, 03:05:48 AM
$70k for a car????? Holy. Fuck.@RadagastIt is really hard to say. Spouse was brought up to be frugal, and has been getting cold feet with that amount of money. I think it will come down to a Mercedes E350/450, Volvo XC90, or something much less expensive like Honda CRV or another Subie. A part of this is that I am making it clear this is not my decision. The conversation goes like: me: "A Volvo XC90 will cost about $30,000 less than Mercedes after 10 years, including lost investments. Plus it has three fully useable rows, and is a plug-in hybrid, so it's better than the E350. Heck, it's even faster." Spouse: "So you are getting the Volvo?". Me: "No! You are getting the Volvo. Unless you don't want it." And then spouse feels uncomfortable being the one to make a decision to buy a $70,000 car. But I am definitely not making that decision.
Now that we've raked you over the coals about not being a promise-breaking-maniac, and you've very patiently been like, 'dudes, what the fuck are you talking about?' what vehicle do you think it will be?
Also, while it makes sense you might be the one driving it sometimes, is your wife receptive to the fact that there are times when Junior may not feel the seamless connection of luxury-wheel-to-road, but, instead, suffer the Subie?
I think it is inevitable that baby will ride in the Forester at times.
Yep. Our net worth is probably double Radagast's and we spent £4,000 on our car - a second hand Volvo estate / station wagon.
Post by: Metalcat on December 20, 2021, 06:09:23 AM
That's oddly specific, considering most people in the driving parts of the world don't seem to care much about the specific vehicles. Or is it less specific and you just don't want someone else's idiosyncrasies bumping up against your idiosyncrasies? That would make more sense, since marriage is a lot of accommodating two very individual people.
Loren
By brilliant, I actually meant both intelligence and emotional intelligence, since we're talking about self esteem, and I used the example of people here, because that's people we're both exposed to.
You're entitled to be as judgemental as you want though.
Post by: AccidentialMustache on December 20, 2021, 07:44:48 AM
Not having that big gas motor up front means your crumple zone is larger. Having the battery as the floor means that you're more stable (vs rollover) than a similar gas SUV. Weighing more means you generally "win" in more vehicle-vehicle collisions. All of the luxury CUV/SUV EVs are generally loaded with safety tech.
You're also cutting the nasty pollution a gas car dumps out of the tail pipe right around your home (/in your garage) and the stats on fossil fuel pollution as a silent killer are bad. Sure, the exposure is "minimal" compared to living near a dirty power plant, refinery, etc.
Post by: Paper Chaser on December 20, 2021, 08:10:24 AM
There's other options -- the Lucid Air/Cadillac Lyric/Ford Mustang Mach E/VW ID.4/Hyundai Ioniq 5 and probably others I'm missing in the same segment ("luxury C/SUV").
While your list has some fine vehicles, I'm not sure any of them are a good fit for OP.
The Lucid Air is a sedan, not a CUV
The Cadillac Lyric is not yet in production
The Ford, VW, and Hyundai aren't luxurious enough (brand prestige is important to OP's spouse)
In the US, the Audi E Tron and maybe the Jaguar I Pace are currently the only EV options in the luxury CUV segment from non-Tesla companies.
Post by: RWD on December 20, 2021, 09:36:01 AM
There's other options -- the Lucid Air/Cadillac Lyric/Ford Mustang Mach E/VW ID.4/Hyundai Ioniq 5 and probably others I'm missing in the same segment ("luxury C/SUV").
While your list has some fine vehicles, I'm not sure any of them are a good fit for OP.
The Lucid Air is a sedan, not a CUV
The Cadillac Lyric is not yet in production
The Ford, VW, and Hyundai aren't luxurious enough (brand prestige is important to OP's spouse)
In the US, the Audi E Tron and maybe the Jaguar I Pace are currently the only EV options in the luxury CUV segment from non-Tesla companies.
There is also the Volvo XC40 Recharge. 400 hp and same MSRP as the GLE (which only has 255 hp). It is quite a bit smaller though, which probably makes it a no-go (20 inches shorter than the GLE).
Post by: Loren Ver on December 20, 2021, 02:48:10 PM
That's oddly specific, considering most people in the driving parts of the world don't seem to care much about the specific vehicles. Or is it less specific and you just don't want someone else's idiosyncrasies bumping up against your idiosyncrasies? That would make more sense, since marriage is a lot of accommodating two very individual people.
Loren
By brilliant, I actually meant both intelligence and emotional intelligence, since we're talking about self esteem, and I used the example of people here, because that's people we're both exposed to.
You're entitled to be as judgemental as you want though.
Malcat, not sure how this relates to my quote above, did I miss something? My quote is in relation to ilsy specifically not wanting to marry a car person (which I though was oddly specific, and therefore quoted directly off of). I didn't comment on any of your posts as I happen to agree with you :).
I actually find it funny since I drove a lower end luxury car for a while (2001 Saab 93 Viggen Convertible) and I don't consider my self esteem to be low. And the car was at the end of it's lifespan so at the bottom of the depreciation curve so it was CHEAP. It also looked like it was twenty years old but meh. Still the most comfy car I'd ever owned and I learned to drive a stick in it. And the top went up and down. Good times.
Loren
Post by: RetiredAt63 on December 20, 2021, 02:56:20 PM
That's oddly specific, considering most people in the driving parts of the world don't seem to care much about the specific vehicles. Or is it less specific and you just don't want someone else's idiosyncrasies bumping up against your idiosyncrasies? That would make more sense, since marriage is a lot of accommodating two very individual people.
Loren
By brilliant, I actually meant both intelligence and emotional intelligence, since we're talking about self esteem, and I used the example of people here, because that's people we're both exposed to.
You're entitled to be as judgemental as you want though.
Malcat, not sure how this relates to my quote above, did I miss something? My quote is in relation to ilsy specifically not wanting to marry a car person (which I though was oddly specific, and therefore quoted directly off of). I didn't comment on any of your posts as I happen to agree with you :).
I actually find it funny since I drove a lower end luxury car for a while (2001 Saab 93 Viggen Convertible) and I don't consider my self esteem to be low. And the car was at the end of it's lifespan so at the bottom of the depreciation curve so it was CHEAP. It also looked like it was twenty years old but meh. Still the most comfy car I'd ever owned and I learned to drive a stick in it. And the top went up and down. Good times.
Loren
Memories . . . . I am definitely not a car person, but I once had a 9000 Turbo Saab hatchback and I loved that car. The back seats folded perfectly flat and the whole back was only an inch below the lip so it was easy to get things in and out. Most practical car I've probably ever owned. It was old, of course.
Post by: Metalcat on December 20, 2021, 03:19:42 PM
That's oddly specific, considering most people in the driving parts of the world don't seem to care much about the specific vehicles. Or is it less specific and you just don't want someone else's idiosyncrasies bumping up against your idiosyncrasies? That would make more sense, since marriage is a lot of accommodating two very individual people.
Loren
By brilliant, I actually meant both intelligence and emotional intelligence, since we're talking about self esteem, and I used the example of people here, because that's people we're both exposed to.
You're entitled to be as judgemental as you want though.
Malcat, not sure how this relates to my quote above, did I miss something? My quote is in relation to ilsy specifically not wanting to marry a car person (which I though was oddly specific, and therefore quoted directly off of). I didn't comment on any of your posts as I happen to agree with you :).
I actually find it funny since I drove a lower end luxury car for a while (2001 Saab 93 Viggen Convertible) and I don't consider my self esteem to be low. And the car was at the end of it's lifespan so at the bottom of the depreciation curve so it was CHEAP. It also looked like it was twenty years old but meh. Still the most comfy car I'd ever owned and I learned to drive a stick in it. And the top went up and down. Good times.
Loren
Quoting mistake. Didn't mean to quote you at all, oops.
Post by: Chris Pascale on December 20, 2021, 03:40:34 PM
@Radagast
Now that we've raked you over the coals about not being a promise-breaking-maniac, and you've very patiently been like, 'dudes, what the fuck are you talking about?' what vehicle do you think it will be?
Also, while it makes sense you might be the one driving it sometimes, is your wife receptive to the fact that there are times when Junior may not feel the seamless connection of luxury-wheel-to-road, but, instead, suffer the Subie?
me: "A Volvo XC90 will cost about $30,000 less than Mercedes after 10 years, including lost investments. Plus it has three fully useable rows, and is a plug-in hybrid, so it's better than the E350. Heck, it's even faster."
Spouse: "So you are getting the Volvo?".
Me: "No! You are getting the Volvo. Unless you don't want it."
And then spouse feels uncomfortable being the one to make a decision.
Maybe some free test drives are in your future, or a couple weekend-long rentals.
Post by: Radagast on December 20, 2021, 08:08:32 PM
You only say that because you haven't had a head-up display before.$70k for a car????? Holy. Fuck.@RadagastIt is really hard to say. Spouse was brought up to be frugal, and has been getting cold feet with that amount of money. I think it will come down to a Mercedes E350/450, Volvo XC90, or something much less expensive like Honda CRV or another Subie. A part of this is that I am making it clear this is not my decision. The conversation goes like: me: "A Volvo XC90 will cost about $30,000 less than Mercedes after 10 years, including lost investments. Plus it has three fully useable rows, and is a plug-in hybrid, so it's better than the E350. Heck, it's even faster." Spouse: "So you are getting the Volvo?". Me: "No! You are getting the Volvo. Unless you don't want it." And then spouse feels uncomfortable being the one to make a decision to buy a $70,000 car. But I am definitely not making that decision.
Now that we've raked you over the coals about not being a promise-breaking-maniac, and you've very patiently been like, 'dudes, what the fuck are you talking about?' what vehicle do you think it will be?
Also, while it makes sense you might be the one driving it sometimes, is your wife receptive to the fact that there are times when Junior may not feel the seamless connection of luxury-wheel-to-road, but, instead, suffer the Subie?
I think it is inevitable that baby will ride in the Forester at times.
Post by: Radagast on December 20, 2021, 08:14:24 PM
The E-Tron and XC40 technically have not been eliminated, though they are not at the top of the list. To me, the XC40 makes a lot more sense than the GLE. It seems like the GLE designers couldn't figure out what to do with their last 12 inches. A common problem with this size SUV: another 9" and it may as well be a minivan or full size SUV. 9" less, and it will be a lower class of vehicle. So instead they all have super awkward designs which by necessity have too much space or too little.There's other options -- the Lucid Air/Cadillac Lyric/Ford Mustang Mach E/VW ID.4/Hyundai Ioniq 5 and probably others I'm missing in the same segment ("luxury C/SUV").
While your list has some fine vehicles, I'm not sure any of them are a good fit for OP.
The Lucid Air is a sedan, not a CUV
The Cadillac Lyric is not yet in production
The Ford, VW, and Hyundai aren't luxurious enough (brand prestige is important to OP's spouse)
In the US, the Audi E Tron and maybe the Jaguar I Pace are currently the only EV options in the luxury CUV segment from non-Tesla companies.
There is also the Volvo XC40 Recharge. 400 hp and same MSRP as the GLE (which only has 255 hp). It is quite a bit smaller though, which probably makes it a no-go (20 inches shorter than the GLE).
Post by: Radagast on December 20, 2021, 08:15:07 PM
The rental is a good suggestion, I'll bring that up. It has been hard to find testers at dealerships.@Radagast
Now that we've raked you over the coals about not being a promise-breaking-maniac, and you've very patiently been like, 'dudes, what the fuck are you talking about?' what vehicle do you think it will be?
Also, while it makes sense you might be the one driving it sometimes, is your wife receptive to the fact that there are times when Junior may not feel the seamless connection of luxury-wheel-to-road, but, instead, suffer the Subie?
me: "A Volvo XC90 will cost about $30,000 less than Mercedes after 10 years, including lost investments. Plus it has three fully useable rows, and is a plug-in hybrid, so it's better than the E350. Heck, it's even faster."
Spouse: "So you are getting the Volvo?".
Me: "No! You are getting the Volvo. Unless you don't want it."
And then spouse feels uncomfortable being the one to make a decision.
Maybe some free test drives are in your future, or a couple weekend-long rentals.
Post by: Paper Chaser on December 21, 2021, 04:04:44 AM
Maybe some free test drives are in your future, or a couple weekend-long rentals.The rental is a good suggestion, I'll bring that up. It has been hard to find testers at dealerships.
It might be worth checking turo as well. It won't be free like a test drive, but you'd be able to have the vehicle for more than an hour or two, and you could speak with an unbiased owner rather than a salesperson with skin in the game. I'd consider it an investment in research before you spend $40-70k.
Post by: former player on December 21, 2021, 04:27:34 AM
I didn't even know what one was until I looked it up. For $57k (the approximate difference between my year old but second hand Mini Cooper and your new Merc) I can live without one.You only say that because you haven't had a head-up display before.$70k for a car????? Holy. Fuck.@RadagastIt is really hard to say. Spouse was brought up to be frugal, and has been getting cold feet with that amount of money. I think it will come down to a Mercedes E350/450, Volvo XC90, or something much less expensive like Honda CRV or another Subie. A part of this is that I am making it clear this is not my decision. The conversation goes like: me: "A Volvo XC90 will cost about $30,000 less than Mercedes after 10 years, including lost investments. Plus it has three fully useable rows, and is a plug-in hybrid, so it's better than the E350. Heck, it's even faster." Spouse: "So you are getting the Volvo?". Me: "No! You are getting the Volvo. Unless you don't want it." And then spouse feels uncomfortable being the one to make a decision to buy a $70,000 car. But I am definitely not making that decision.
Now that we've raked you over the coals about not being a promise-breaking-maniac, and you've very patiently been like, 'dudes, what the fuck are you talking about?' what vehicle do you think it will be?
Also, while it makes sense you might be the one driving it sometimes, is your wife receptive to the fact that there are times when Junior may not feel the seamless connection of luxury-wheel-to-road, but, instead, suffer the Subie?
I think it is inevitable that baby will ride in the Forester at times.
Post by: JLee on December 21, 2021, 06:56:40 AM
I didn't even know what one was until I looked it up. For $57k (the approximate difference between my year old but second hand Mini Cooper and your new Merc) I can live without one.You only say that because you haven't had a head-up display before.$70k for a car????? Holy. Fuck.@RadagastIt is really hard to say. Spouse was brought up to be frugal, and has been getting cold feet with that amount of money. I think it will come down to a Mercedes E350/450, Volvo XC90, or something much less expensive like Honda CRV or another Subie. A part of this is that I am making it clear this is not my decision. The conversation goes like: me: "A Volvo XC90 will cost about $30,000 less than Mercedes after 10 years, including lost investments. Plus it has three fully useable rows, and is a plug-in hybrid, so it's better than the E350. Heck, it's even faster." Spouse: "So you are getting the Volvo?". Me: "No! You are getting the Volvo. Unless you don't want it." And then spouse feels uncomfortable being the one to make a decision to buy a $70,000 car. But I am definitely not making that decision.
Now that we've raked you over the coals about not being a promise-breaking-maniac, and you've very patiently been like, 'dudes, what the fuck are you talking about?' what vehicle do you think it will be?
Also, while it makes sense you might be the one driving it sometimes, is your wife receptive to the fact that there are times when Junior may not feel the seamless connection of luxury-wheel-to-road, but, instead, suffer the Subie?
I think it is inevitable that baby will ride in the Forester at times.
My ‘04 Z06 had one. It was neat but isn’t worth a huge price premium IMO.
Post by: Askel on December 21, 2021, 07:58:12 AM
You only say that because you haven't had a head-up display before.
If that's the deciding factor, have I got a deal for you.
https://www.amazon.com/Arestech-Windshield-Speeding-Consumption-Temperature/dp/B00VHSFG1M
Post by: Chris Pascale on December 21, 2021, 04:10:55 PM
Maybe some free test drives are in your future, or a couple weekend-long rentals.The rental is a good suggestion, I'll bring that up. It has been hard to find testers at dealerships.
It might be worth checking turo as well. It won't be free like a test drive, but you'd be able to have the vehicle for more than an hour or two, and you could speak with an unbiased owner rather than a salesperson with skin in the game. I'd consider it an investment in research before you spend $40-70k.
Now that our van is close to 200k miles and I don't want to replace it, family trips are in rental SUVs. So far, driving them gives us some insight into how much nicer the a van is.
Post by: Radagast on December 21, 2021, 09:53:06 PM
This hasn't worked out well, I have not seen even one of the considered models available on two rental sites or Turo.Maybe some free test drives are in your future, or a couple weekend-long rentals.The rental is a good suggestion, I'll bring that up. It has been hard to find testers at dealerships.
It might be worth checking turo as well. It won't be free like a test drive, but you'd be able to have the vehicle for more than an hour or two, and you could speak with an unbiased owner rather than a salesperson with skin in the game. I'd consider it an investment in research before you spend $40-70k.
Post by: Radagast on December 21, 2021, 09:54:45 PM
Post by: Radagast on December 21, 2021, 10:05:54 PM
$118,803 Subaru Forester
$115,917 Honda CRV Hybrid
$143,619 Toyota Sienna Hybrid
$154,478 Volvo XC40 Electric
$164,107 Chrysler Pacfica
$170,031 Audi E-Tron Electric
$180,840 Volvo XC90 Hybrid
$194,326 BMW X5 Hybrid
$212,549 Mercedes GLE
If you were wondering about the list, it is the intersection of all vehicles with actual or plausible IIHS top safety picks, and vehicles which get better fuel economy than a 2014 Subaru Forester. Plus a Mercedes GLE, because. And then vehicles unsuitable to spouse were removed.
Post by: JLee on December 21, 2021, 10:47:14 PM
Here is the current list, with my estimated 10-year opportunity cost. Forester is just a benchmark. A Pacifica is probably just wishful thinking. And the Volvo XC40 for that matter. And, well, really all but the bottom 4 might be wishful thinking.
$118,803 Subaru Forester
$115,917 Honda CRV Hybrid
$143,619 Toyota Sienna Hybrid
$154,478 Volvo XC40 Electric
$164,107 Chrysler Pacfica
$170,031 Audi E-Tron Electric
$180,840 Volvo XC90 Hybrid
$194,326 BMW X5 Hybrid
$212,549 Mercedes GLE
If you were wondering about the list, it is the intersection of all vehicles with actual or plausible IIHS top safety picks, and vehicles which get better fuel economy than a 2014 Subaru Forester. Plus a Mercedes GLE, because. And then vehicles unsuitable to spouse were removed.
Is that opportunity cost factoring in a cash purchase or financing? DCU.org has 1.49% for 65mo (1.24% for EVs or high efficiency).
Post by: dignam on December 22, 2021, 06:50:30 AM
With your opportunity cost values, are those assuming new car prices?
I know you were joking about the HUD, but my GF's 4 year old Mazda CX-3 has one ;)
Post by: Just Joe on December 23, 2021, 05:35:33 PM
I would definitely try to split the difference between a Mercedes SUV and a CRV and go with a Lexus SUV or Acura SUV. Both are equally luxurious feeling as a Mercedes, but have Honda/Toyota quality and resale valueYeah, that would be a good compromise. Acura was recently eliminated, the RDX apparently wasn't as nice to drive as a Forester, let alone a real luxury vehicle. Plus the dealership experience was disappointing because it was very cold when we went there, and upon getting in the car to test it the salesperson didn't think to turn on the heated seats or even heater for several minutes.
Lexus is still in the books, but I expect it will not stay there.
Don't rely on your experience with a salesperson shape your choices. They represent a tiny part of the ownership experience. If Acura doesn't work for you, then cool. Our Honda shopping experience was terrible ~21 years ago when we purchased our CRV. I was confident in the brand - and it has paid off - but the salesperson experience was awful at multiple dealerships. Of course I DIY everything so I very seldom step foot in a dealership. Even when I purchase OEM parts I do that online b/c the local dealership marks their parts up to ridiculous levels.
Post by: ToTheMoon on December 23, 2021, 05:44:32 PM
I know you were joking about the HUD, but my GF's 4 year old Mazda CX-3 has one ;)
Lol, my new-to-me 2014 Mazda 3 also has it.
Best of luck OP, you seem to find yourself in a bit of an impossible predicament at the moment!
Post by: Kris on December 23, 2021, 05:50:54 PM
Here is the current list, with my estimated 10-year opportunity cost. Forester is just a benchmark. A Pacifica is probably just wishful thinking. And the Volvo XC40 for that matter. And, well, really all but the bottom 4 might be wishful thinking.
$118,803 Subaru Forester
$115,917 Honda CRV Hybrid
$143,619 Toyota Sienna Hybrid
$154,478 Volvo XC40 Electric
$164,107 Chrysler Pacfica
$170,031 Audi E-Tron Electric
$180,840 Volvo XC90 Hybrid
$194,326 BMW X5 Hybrid
$212,549 Mercedes GLE
If you were wondering about the list, it is the intersection of all vehicles with actual or plausible IIHS top safety picks, and vehicles which get better fuel economy than a 2014 Subaru Forester. Plus a Mercedes GLE, because. And then vehicles unsuitable to spouse were removed.
This is blowing my mind. I cannot imagine justifying any of these!
Post by: zolotiyeruki on December 23, 2021, 09:41:49 PM
1) The new, hybrid-only Siennas are sure to last basically forever. They're also, IMO, terrible. DW and I took one for a test drive a few months back. I really, really wanted it to be amazing, with Toyota's hybrid tech and reliability. Unfortunately, from what we saw, it's a massive step backwards in practicality, compared to previous generations. The second row seats are not removable for hauling 4x8 goods. Well, they *can* be removed, but that requires a socket set and will leave you with an airbag warning light. The 8th seat (2nd row, center seat) has a cushion so thin and soft that you can feel the seat frame through it. The rear bench seat is awful--the front corners of the bench are cut off in order to allow the seat to fold into the rear cargo floor, and the head rests are supremely uncomfortable. The ma-HOO-sive center console eliminates nearly all the utility of that precious space between the front seats, the arm rests on the front seats can't be flipped up, and the dash looks like they let the art students design it instead of soccer moms and engineers. Basically, it's a minivan that tries its best to act like a 4-seat SUV. Or maybe it's the other way around?
2) Now is a terrible time to car shop. We're in the market for a new-to-us minivan, and have been, for the last year. The global chip shortage looks to be loosening its grip over the next 6 months, so that may help your wife delay her gratification just a bit longer.
3) If it's to be brand new, can you rent one of each model you're considering, for a week at a time, to make sure DW gets what she wants?
4) If it has to be a luxury SUV, get a Lexus.
Post by: AccidentialMustache on December 24, 2021, 06:58:13 AM
Having lived with an EV for 5 months now, they're just that much better at being a car than an ICE is. The *only* complaint to have is range/charging access/charging time. I smile every time I cruise past a gas station and don't have to waste 5 minutes dealing with stinky fuel and stinkier pump-screen advertising.
Well that and they are only selling boats (or compliance cars, which are pretty bad) for EVs in the US. I guess technically there's the Kona, but I've never seen one in person, nor found it within 200 miles when we were looking. Even the recent leafs (where they quit being a compliance car) are not small.
Post by: Chris22 on December 24, 2021, 09:03:40 AM
Post by: Radagast on December 24, 2021, 12:26:33 PM
This is blowing my mind. I cannot imagine justifying any of these!Allow me to update the list with the lowest-cost vehicle meeting my criteria (I think, didn't check them all), a base model Honda Insight. Basically a hybrid Civic. See? Many of the rest aren't that bad in comparison. I don't think things get really unreasonable until you get past the Pacifica. Considering how crazy the used market is at the moment, there aren't many budget-friendly vehicles out there unless they are garbage. It is the same as local houses right now: all the price pressure is at the bottom of the market. Although I based my prices on the more expensive trims so realistically they should be a little less (that is the most expensive Honda CRV and Toyota Sienna you can configure, except a few lings like mud flaps).
~10 Year Future Cost
$118,803 Subaru Forester
$97,031 Honda Insight
$115,917 Honda CRV Hybrid
$143,619 Toyota Sienna Hybrid
$154,478 Volvo XC40 Electric
$164,107 Chrysler Pacifica
$170,031 Audi E-Tron Electric
$180,840 Volvo XC90 Hybrid
$194,326 BMW X5 Hybrid
$212,549 Mercedes GLE
Post by: Radagast on December 24, 2021, 12:28:28 PM
Thanks, great tip! That assumes cash. Naturally I would get a low interest loan and put the money in savings bonds though.Here is the current list, with my estimated 10-year opportunity cost. Forester is just a benchmark. A Pacifica is probably just wishful thinking. And the Volvo XC40 for that matter. And, well, really all but the bottom 4 might be wishful thinking.
$118,803 Subaru Forester
$115,917 Honda CRV Hybrid
$143,619 Toyota Sienna Hybrid
$154,478 Volvo XC40 Electric
$164,107 Chrysler Pacfica
$170,031 Audi E-Tron Electric
$180,840 Volvo XC90 Hybrid
$194,326 BMW X5 Hybrid
$212,549 Mercedes GLE
If you were wondering about the list, it is the intersection of all vehicles with actual or plausible IIHS top safety picks, and vehicles which get better fuel economy than a 2014 Subaru Forester. Plus a Mercedes GLE, because. And then vehicles unsuitable to spouse were removed.
Is that opportunity cost factoring in a cash purchase or financing? DCU.org has 1.49% for 65mo (1.24% for EVs or high efficiency).
Post by: Radagast on December 24, 2021, 12:30:51 PM
OP, have you used the "it's a terrible market to buy a car" excuse with your spouse yet? At least wait until it cools off (maybe it never will, but the empty car lots around me are starting to fill up again).I definitely tried that one. Spouse suggested, and I can't disagree, that it might take two years or more to get back to normal. Around here it seems like inventory is not going up at all.
Post by: Radagast on December 24, 2021, 12:46:44 PM
Hey, Radagast, here are a few thoughts, for the two cents they're worth:1. So it's not just me? It is the same with the Highlander, which seems to be trying to mimic the Sienna and vice versa. I have never seen the inside of a Sienna though, they are all sold out.
1) The new, hybrid-only Siennas are sure to last basically forever. They're also, IMO, terrible. DW and I took one for a test drive a few months back. I really, really wanted it to be amazing, with Toyota's hybrid tech and reliability. Unfortunately, from what we saw, it's a massive step backwards in practicality, compared to previous generations. The second row seats are not removable for hauling 4x8 goods. Well, they *can* be removed, but that requires a socket set and will leave you with an airbag warning light. The 8th seat (2nd row, center seat) has a cushion so thin and soft that you can feel the seat frame through it. The rear bench seat is awful--the front corners of the bench are cut off in order to allow the seat to fold into the rear cargo floor, and the head rests are supremely uncomfortable. The ma-HOO-sive center console eliminates nearly all the utility of that precious space between the front seats, the arm rests on the front seats can't be flipped up, and the dash looks like they let the art students design it instead of soccer moms and engineers. Basically, it's a minivan that tries its best to act like a 4-seat SUV. Or maybe it's the other way around?
2) Now is a terrible time to car shop. We're in the market for a new-to-us minivan, and have been, for the last year. The global chip shortage looks to be loosening its grip over the next 6 months, so that may help your wife delay her gratification just a bit longer.
3) If it's to be brand new, can you rent one of each model you're considering, for a week at a time, to make sure DW gets what she wants?
4) If it has to be a luxury SUV, get a Lexus.
2. Tell me about it!
3. I have not been able to find any of the models we are looking at on any local rental or short term loan site. I haven't put much effort into it, maybe there's something I'm missing.
4. Lexus seems to be having a similar issue to Toyota though. For example, the RX has a turning diameter of 45 feet, 5 longer than a minivan and 10 longer than a Forester. Both vehicles make terrible use or their size translating to interior space. I, and maybe both of us, would prefer a CRV, or the XC40 which should have similar cost after 10 years.
Post by: Radagast on December 24, 2021, 12:48:12 PM
Saw an article saying Mercedes is bringing two new EVs this coming year. Clearly she needs to wait to see them. Since it sounds like you keep your cars a good long while, I'd bet a gas Mercedes is going to take a huge hit to prestige (and depreciation) in 10 years compared to an EV.A Mercedes EQB, to my ignorant mind, should be exactly what we are looking for.
Having lived with an EV for 5 months now, they're just that much better at being a car than an ICE is. The *only* complaint to have is range/charging access/charging time. I smile every time I cruise past a gas station and don't have to waste 5 minutes dealing with stinky fuel and stinkier pump-screen advertising.
Well that and they are only selling boats (or compliance cars, which are pretty bad) for EVs in the US. I guess technically there's the Kona, but I've never seen one in person, nor found it within 200 miles when we were looking. Even the recent leafs (where they quit being a compliance car) are not small.
Post by: Radagast on December 24, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
Post by: Paper Chaser on December 24, 2021, 04:32:21 PM
This is blowing my mind. I cannot imagine justifying any of these!Allow me to update the list with the lowest-cost vehicle meeting my criteria (I think, didn't check them all), a base model Honda Insight. Basically a hybrid Civic. See? Many of the rest aren't that bad in comparison. I don't think things get really unreasonable until you get past the Pacifica. Considering how crazy the used market is at the moment, there aren't many budget-friendly vehicles out there unless they are garbage. It is the same as local houses right now: all the price pressure is at the bottom of the market. Although I based my prices on the more expensive trims so realistically they should be a little less (that is the most expensive Honda CRV and Toyota Sienna you can configure, except a few lings like mud flaps).
~10 Year Future Cost
$118,803 Subaru Forester
$97,031 Honda Insight
$115,917 Honda CRV Hybrid
$143,619 Toyota Sienna Hybrid
$154,478 Volvo XC40 Electric
$164,107 Chrysler Pacifica
$170,031 Audi E-Tron Electric
$180,840 Volvo XC90 Hybrid
$194,326 BMW X5 Hybrid
$212,549 Mercedes GLE
This list is based only on purchase price? Some of the hybrids and EVs will qualify for tax credits which might close the gap with cheaper ICEs. Less maintenance than an ICE and cheap charging can close the gap even more over the life of the vehicle. Depreciation is probably the biggest X factor in EV TCO calculations. It's possible that ICEs will depreciate faster in the future if customers prefer EVs. But it's also possible that EV tech moves fast, and early EVs will depreciate quickly as they become outdated and outclassed by newer tech. 5 or 10 year old cell phones don't have much value once newer models are released, and non-Tesla EVs have suffered from pretty brutal depreciation so far.
Post by: Just Joe on December 25, 2021, 06:38:59 AM
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a38595024/used-car-market-will-crash/
I liked their strategy - by the cheapest thing you need to get past these high prices IF you need a vehicle. Otherwise, hold on to what you have. Sell any spare vehicles.
Post by: Askel on December 25, 2021, 07:44:09 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcEylCwkSxE
Post by: MayDay on December 25, 2021, 09:58:19 AM
This is blowing my mind. I cannot imagine justifying any of these!Allow me to update the list with the lowest-cost vehicle meeting my criteria (I think, didn't check them all), a base model Honda Insight. Basically a hybrid Civic. See? Many of the rest aren't that bad in comparison. I don't think things get really unreasonable until you get past the Pacifica. Considering how crazy the used market is at the moment, there aren't many budget-friendly vehicles out there unless they are garbage. It is the same as local houses right now: all the price pressure is at the bottom of the market. Although I based my prices on the more expensive trims so realistically they should be a little less (that is the most expensive Honda CRV and Toyota Sienna you can configure, except a few lings like mud flaps).
~10 Year Future Cost
$118,803 Subaru Forester
$97,031 Honda Insight
$115,917 Honda CRV Hybrid
$143,619 Toyota Sienna Hybrid
$154,478 Volvo XC40 Electric
$164,107 Chrysler Pacifica
$170,031 Audi E-Tron Electric
$180,840 Volvo XC90 Hybrid
$194,326 BMW X5 Hybrid
$212,549 Mercedes GLE
Well I feel MMM proud of the new Insight I bought for 19k right before the chip shortage started (deep discount on a 2019 model in 2020).
But OMG it is the most boring car ever and I am not a car person. My last car was a 20 year old civic and even I kind of want to ditch the Insight and at least get a manual civic again lol.
Post by: kms on December 27, 2021, 03:05:44 PM
At least two of spouses friends have done so recently (one who waits tables and probably should not have, one a much older high-earning nurse who likely had no problems). I am just trying to turn it into the least worst financial choice I can ;).
Spouse REALLY wants a Mercedes GLE, and loves it for all the reasons I hate it. Kelly Blue Book calls it "a sumptuous den of luxury" and that is much of an understatement as the GLE is not understated.
Maybe it's just me but this sounds like a typical case of "keeping up with the Joneses". Maybe the reason your wife is so dead set on a Mercedes GLE because she does not want to lose face? Not saying this will change anything but it might help you understand her thought process a bit better. If you ask me I don't think there's much wiggle room left, and you might as well save yourself a lot of time, arguments, and ultimately tears by accepting that this may not be about the Mercedes per se but about what owning one and showing it off represents to her.
Post by: chesebert on December 29, 2021, 08:45:33 AM
Some discussion to consider:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a38595024/used-car-market-will-crash/
I liked their strategy - by the cheapest thing you need to get past these high prices IF you need a vehicle. Otherwise, hold on to what you have. Sell any spare vehicles.
This is the way. You are looking at a potential 50-60%+ depreciation in 3 years if the market corrects. I would buy CPO and ride out the shortage. .
Post by: SailingOnASmallSailboat on December 29, 2021, 08:58:55 AM
At least two of spouses friends have done so recently (one who waits tables and probably should not have, one a much older high-earning nurse who likely had no problems). I am just trying to turn it into the least worst financial choice I can ;).Spouse REALLY wants a Mercedes GLE, and loves it for all the reasons I hate it. Kelly Blue Book calls it "a sumptuous den of luxury" and that is much of an understatement as the GLE is not understated.
Maybe it's just me but this sounds like a typical case of "keeping up with the Joneses". Maybe the reason your wife is so dead set on a Mercedes GLE because she does not want to lose face? Not saying this will change anything but it might help you understand her thought process a bit better. If you ask me I don't think there's much wiggle room left, and you might as well save yourself a lot of time, arguments, and ultimately tears by accepting that this may not be about the Mercedes per se but about what owning one and showing it off represents to her.
This. My brother and SIL sold their minivan because SIL wanted an SUV, pretty much solely because minivans in their area are looked down upon. Less practical in almost every way, the SUV is just what she wanted and it fits in better. The Mercedes has nothing to do with what will work and everything to do with what looks right.
Post by: chesebert on December 29, 2021, 09:00:14 AM
Post by: sonofsven on December 29, 2021, 09:05:02 AM
How 'bout a late 90's ML? Extremely capable and extremely cheap.
Post by: chesebert on December 29, 2021, 09:11:21 AM
Yeah, I really can't identify with this luxury suv idea. The only Mercedes I would possibly spend decent money on would be a Sprinter- cuz I could live in it.Try an AMG wagon (or even the regular E class wagon) and report back.
How 'bout a late 90's ML? Extremely capable and extremely cheap.
Post by: RWD on December 29, 2021, 09:13:15 AM
One more thing to consider when buying German right now is that if any part needs replacement - this can happen to both new and used cars, you will be waiting weeks for the part. I have a BMW and waited over a month for some suspension parts, 3 weeks for a hose and been waiting for almost 2 months for a stupid trim part. If you need to drive everyday and do not have a flexible driving schedule you should look at non-German. Admittedly I don’t know if similar shortages also plague brands other than BMW.Might depend on the specific model too. The GLE is built in Alabama so perhaps it would have better parts availability. A lot of BMWs and Mercedes are being built in the US now.
Post by: RWD on December 29, 2021, 09:14:27 AM
The new EQS is really appealing. Too bad it's $100k+. Maybe some day when they've depreciated a bunch...Yeah, I really can't identify with this luxury suv idea. The only Mercedes I would possibly spend decent money on would be a Sprinter- cuz I could live in it.Try an AMG wagon (or even the regular E class wagon) and report back.
How 'bout a late 90's ML? Extremely capable and extremely cheap.
Post by: sonofsven on December 29, 2021, 09:27:44 AM
I think it would be too cramped ;-) I like to stretch out.Yeah, I really can't identify with this luxury suv idea. The only Mercedes I would possibly spend decent money on would be a Sprinter- cuz I could live in it.Try an AMG wagon (or even the regular E class wagon) and report back.
How 'bout a late 90's ML? Extremely capable and extremely cheap.
Post by: SunnyDays on December 29, 2021, 12:31:54 PM
Post by: chesebert on December 29, 2021, 02:13:23 PM
Here is the current list, with my estimated 10-year opportunity cost. Forester is just a benchmark. A Pacifica is probably just wishful thinking. And the Volvo XC40 for that matter. And, well, really all but the bottom 4 might be wishful thinking.Not sure if these numbers are all that helpful in decision making - 212k and 141k look equally scary. Just stick to 2-3% networth number and you should be fine.
$118,803 Subaru Forester
$115,917 Honda CRV Hybrid
$143,619 Toyota Sienna Hybrid
$154,478 Volvo XC40 Electric
$164,107 Chrysler Pacfica
$170,031 Audi E-Tron Electric
$180,840 Volvo XC90 Hybrid
$194,326 BMW X5 Hybrid
$212,549 Mercedes GLE
If you were wondering about the list, it is the intersection of all vehicles with actual or plausible IIHS top safety picks, and vehicles which get better fuel economy than a 2014 Subaru Forester. Plus a Mercedes GLE, because. And then vehicles unsuitable to spouse were removed.
Post by: Radagast on December 29, 2021, 03:36:09 PM
It is purchase price based on my estimation of what trims/options we would get, local taxes, federal incentives, fuel costs based on my own numbers and 7500 miles/year, and all other information from https://caredge.com/. I can't predict future maintenance cost, residual value, and opportunity cost though, so it is very crude. I made a crude attempt to apply a 7% discount rate by multiplying upfront costs by 2, and summed ten year ongoing costs by 1.5.This is blowing my mind. I cannot imagine justifying any of these!Allow me to update the list with the lowest-cost vehicle meeting my criteria (I think, didn't check them all), a base model Honda Insight. Basically a hybrid Civic. See? Many of the rest aren't that bad in comparison. I don't think things get really unreasonable until you get past the Pacifica. Considering how crazy the used market is at the moment, there aren't many budget-friendly vehicles out there unless they are garbage. It is the same as local houses right now: all the price pressure is at the bottom of the market. Although I based my prices on the more expensive trims so realistically they should be a little less (that is the most expensive Honda CRV and Toyota Sienna you can configure, except a few lings like mud flaps).
~10 Year Future Cost
$118,803 Subaru Forester
$97,031 Honda Insight
$115,917 Honda CRV Hybrid
$143,619 Toyota Sienna Hybrid
$154,478 Volvo XC40 Electric
$164,107 Chrysler Pacifica
$170,031 Audi E-Tron Electric
$180,840 Volvo XC90 Hybrid
$194,326 BMW X5 Hybrid
$212,549 Mercedes GLE
This list is based only on purchase price? Some of the hybrids and EVs will qualify for tax credits which might close the gap with cheaper ICEs. Less maintenance than an ICE and cheap charging can close the gap even more over the life of the vehicle. Depreciation is probably the biggest X factor in EV TCO calculations. It's possible that ICEs will depreciate faster in the future if customers prefer EVs. But it's also possible that EV tech moves fast, and early EVs will depreciate quickly as they become outdated and outclassed by newer tech. 5 or 10 year old cell phones don't have much value once newer models are released, and non-Tesla EVs have suffered from pretty brutal depreciation so far.
Post by: Radagast on December 29, 2021, 03:43:00 PM
Some discussion to consider:You are speaking like an irrational person. If you were rational, you would rush right out and buy a luxury SUV!
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a38595024/used-car-market-will-crash/
I liked their strategy - by the cheapest thing you need to get past these high prices IF you need a vehicle. Otherwise, hold on to what you have. Sell any spare vehicles.
Sarcasm aside, buying the cheapest vehicle is what everyone is doing, so there is a lot lot lot of price pressure on cheaper vehicles, to the point that used vehicles may not represent better value. If you got in a wreck and need a car now, your choice is to wait 3-6 months for something to show up, or buy a used vehicle at whatever price you can get. Which has made cheap cars of all types the least attractive they have ever been relative to expensive cars. Based on my observations. Of course, we can afford to wait 3-6 months for a cheap new car, we are just choosing to wait 3-6 months for an expensive new car instead.
Post by: Radagast on December 29, 2021, 03:43:59 PM
That is basically what it's down to.At least two of spouses friends have done so recently (one who waits tables and probably should not have, one a much older high-earning nurse who likely had no problems). I am just trying to turn it into the least worst financial choice I can ;).Spouse REALLY wants a Mercedes GLE, and loves it for all the reasons I hate it. Kelly Blue Book calls it "a sumptuous den of luxury" and that is much of an understatement as the GLE is not understated.
Maybe it's just me but this sounds like a typical case of "keeping up with the Joneses". Maybe the reason your wife is so dead set on a Mercedes GLE because she does not want to lose face? Not saying this will change anything but it might help you understand her thought process a bit better. If you ask me I don't think there's much wiggle room left, and you might as well save yourself a lot of time, arguments, and ultimately tears by accepting that this may not be about the Mercedes per se but about what owning one and showing it off represents to her.
Post by: Radagast on December 29, 2021, 03:52:21 PM
I like to try and work ongoing expenses into it too. By projecting everything out after 10 years I am getting the best idea of what we are up against. I have a couple ways of looking at it, including just upfront cost, NPV, and FV. If $70,000 less after ten years isn't more scary, then it just isn't more scary. I can also say that if we intend to average this level of expenditure every ten years, we need about an extra $125,000 to reach financial independence, comparing a GLE to CRV. Perhaps an extra $175,000 comparing to an outright used econobox.Here is the current list, with my estimated 10-year opportunity cost. Forester is just a benchmark. A Pacifica is probably just wishful thinking. And the Volvo XC40 for that matter. And, well, really all but the bottom 4 might be wishful thinking.Not sure if these numbers are all that helpful in decision making - 212k and 141k look equally scary. Just stick to 2-3% networth number and you should be fine.
$118,803 Subaru Forester
$115,917 Honda CRV Hybrid
$143,619 Toyota Sienna Hybrid
$154,478 Volvo XC40 Electric
$164,107 Chrysler Pacfica
$170,031 Audi E-Tron Electric
$180,840 Volvo XC90 Hybrid
$194,326 BMW X5 Hybrid
$212,549 Mercedes GLE
If you were wondering about the list, it is the intersection of all vehicles with actual or plausible IIHS top safety picks, and vehicles which get better fuel economy than a 2014 Subaru Forester. Plus a Mercedes GLE, because. And then vehicles unsuitable to spouse were removed.
Post by: Radagast on December 29, 2021, 05:04:19 PM
We are actually getting a "2022 BMW X5 xDrive45e" PHEV. The 2022 BMW does not look as bad as the 2018 we drove earlier. An X5 was actually the vehicle spouse originally wanted, because apparently BMW is the most prestigious brand of all. Spouse eventually agreed to go back to the X5 over my intense opposition to the GLE. I consider this a small victory. The BMW will be just a little cheaper. With a $7500 tax credit and 31-mile electric driving range (which covers 90% of our driving at less than half the efficiency of a Tesla) it will certainly be cheaper. Side benefit: it has an adjustable height air suspension, which along with being a serious maintenance item, can be lowered 1.5 inches to give better efficiency and stability. Yesterday I saw one lowered as far as possible, and along with the clamshell trunk to keep apples from rolling out it looks just like the failed minivan it is.
Also the HUD is kick ass. It shows speed, speed limit, a map of the road ahead, and apparently quite a few other things projected on the windshield (never saw one in real life). This will probably be my favorite part.
Post by: chesebert on December 29, 2021, 05:53:01 PM
Just to be clear you would be lucky to get on the road for less than $80k.
Post by: MayDay on December 30, 2021, 08:12:09 AM
What a waste of everyone’s time. Enjoy your car - HUD with navigation is great. Just make sure you continue the subscription after initial ownership. On the other hand PHEV is the worst of all worlds, but you do you.
Just to be clear you would be lucky to get on the road for less than $80k.
Why is PHEV the worst of both worlds?
And what is a waste of everyone's time?
Post by: chesebert on December 30, 2021, 08:59:27 AM
What a waste of everyone’s time. Enjoy your car - HUD with navigation is great. Just make sure you continue the subscription after initial ownership. On the other hand PHEV is the worst of all worlds, but you do you.
Just to be clear you would be lucky to get on the road for less than $80k.
Why is PHEV the worst of both worlds?
Extremely complex to maintain and prone to failure. Small battery also degrades faster. EV range will be significantly affected during the winter months making the suv an essentially 6 cylinder turbo ICE gas guzzler.
And what is a waste of everyone's time?
People tried to help him save money and he ends up spending even more than where he started at. I did get a chuckle out of seeing him go back to X5 after trashing it in op. I suppose seeing middle class people spend shit ton of money on a fast depreciating asset is comedy in this forum.
Post by: uniwelder on December 30, 2021, 09:22:14 AM
What a waste of everyone’s time. Enjoy your car - HUD with navigation is great. Just make sure you continue the subscription after initial ownership. On the other hand PHEV is the worst of all worlds, but you do you.
Just to be clear you would be lucky to get on the road for less than $80k.
Why is PHEV the worst of both worlds?
Extremely complex to maintain and prone to failure. Small battery also degrades faster. EV range will be significantly affected during the winter months making the suv an essentially 6 cylinder turbo ICE gas guzzler.
And what is a waste of everyone's time?
People tried to help him save money and he ends up spending even more than where he started at. I did get a chuckle out of seeing him go back to X5 after trashing it in op. I suppose seeing middle class people spend shit ton of money on a fast depreciating asset is comedy in this forum.
Did you not read the original posting? This was his wife’s decision to make that he opposes. How can you be so dense not to understand?
Post by: MayDay on December 30, 2021, 10:26:32 AM
What a waste of everyone’s time. Enjoy your car - HUD with navigation is great. Just make sure you continue the subscription after initial ownership. On the other hand PHEV is the worst of all worlds, but you do you.
Just to be clear you would be lucky to get on the road for less than $80k.
Why is PHEV the worst of both worlds?
Extremely complex to maintain and prone to failure. Small battery also degrades faster. EV range will be significantly affected during the winter months making the suv an essentially 6 cylinder turbo ICE gas guzzler.
And what is a waste of everyone's time?
People tried to help him save money and he ends up spending even more than where he started at. I did get a chuckle out of seeing him go back to X5 after trashing it in op. I suppose seeing middle class people spend shit ton of money on a fast depreciating asset is comedy in this forum.
Did you not read the original posting? This was his wife’s decision to make that he opposes. How can you be so dense not to understand?
No kidding, and look at the forum...
Post by: Radagast on December 30, 2021, 11:07:47 AM
I'm sorry you feel that way. I posted in Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy, so hopefully most people came expecting their time to be wasted.What a waste of everyone’s time. Enjoy your car - HUD with navigation is great. Just make sure you continue the subscription after initial ownership. On the other hand PHEV is the worst of all worlds, but you do you.
Just to be clear you would be lucky to get on the road for less than $80k.
Why is PHEV the worst of both worlds?
Extremely complex to maintain and prone to failure. Small battery also degrades faster. EV range will be significantly affected during the winter months making the suv an essentially 6 cylinder turbo ICE gas guzzler.
And what is a waste of everyone's time?
People tried to help him save money and he ends up spending even more than where he started at. I did get a chuckle out of seeing him go back to X5 after trashing it in op. I suppose seeing middle class people spend shit ton of money on a fast depreciating asset is comedy in this forum.
Is a PHEV worse than a regular hybrid? I have been contemplating it. On the one hand it will require typical annual ICE maintenance, and gas station stops, and nightly recharging. On the other hand the nightly recharging will cause a proportionate drop in gas station time. So probably time is a wash, and it will be less expensive to operate. Certainly a PHEV X5 would be less expensive than non-PHEV version as a result of the $7500 tax credit, even if never charged. Even on the coldest day, if the range was cut in half, we would still barely burn gas. I like that I wouldn't half to worry about the battery simply dying in the winter too.
Besides, the X5 isn't that bad. Motortrend rates it the 5th-best midsize luxury SUV excluding those with three rows. It is also the best BMW model available per Road and Track, who says says "It's Pretty Sad That the X5 Hybrid Is the Best Thing BMW Makes."
Post by: GreenToTheCore on December 30, 2021, 11:20:20 AM
I posted in Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy, so hopefully most people came expecting their time to be wasted.
Agreed. Thanks for the conversation and I'm glad you found a solution that works for you guys.
Yesterday I saw one lowered as far as possible, and along with the clamshell trunk to keep apples from rolling out it looks just like the failed minivan it is.
This made me giggle.
Happy New Year *cheers*
Post by: zolotiyeruki on December 30, 2021, 12:36:08 PM
Besides, the X5 isn't that bad. Motortrend rates it the 5th-best midsize luxury SUV excluding those with three rows. It is also the best BMW model available per Road and Track, who says says "It's Pretty Sad That the X5 Hybrid Is the Best Thing BMW Makes."How many competitors are there in the "midsized, two-row SUV" category? That categorization winnows the field quite a bit, and to come in fifth place in that category doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence...
Post by: Radagast on December 30, 2021, 01:22:46 PM
:DBesides, the X5 isn't that bad. Motortrend rates it the 5th-best midsize luxury SUV excluding those with three rows. It is also the best BMW model available per Road and Track, who says says "It's Pretty Sad That the X5 Hybrid Is the Best Thing BMW Makes."How many competitors are there in the "midsized, two-row SUV" category? That categorization winnows the field quite a bit, and to come in fifth place in that category doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence...
Post by: Paper Chaser on December 30, 2021, 02:16:44 PM
What a waste of everyone’s time. Enjoy your car - HUD with navigation is great. Just make sure you continue the subscription after initial ownership. On the other hand PHEV is the worst of all worlds, but you do you.
Just to be clear you would be lucky to get on the road for less than $80k.
Why is PHEV the worst of both worlds?
Extremely complex to maintain and prone to failure. Small battery also degrades faster. EV range will be significantly affected during the winter months making the suv an essentially 6 cylinder turbo ICE gas guzzler.
My PHEV with 20 mile EV range has required 1 oil change every 15k miles or so, and 1 tank of fuel every ~1k miles, and.....that's it. In 60k miles. It's hardly difficult to maintain, as it operates as an EV for more than half the miles that I drive. Modern ICEs last a very long time, and PHEVs use the ICE stuff much less than a regular ICE.
Post by: RWD on December 30, 2021, 03:09:40 PM
Looks like Motor Trend lists 9 vehicles in that category. So #5 is exactly the median. At least it beats the GLE (#7).:DBesides, the X5 isn't that bad. Motortrend rates it the 5th-best midsize luxury SUV excluding those with three rows. It is also the best BMW model available per Road and Track, who says says "It's Pretty Sad That the X5 Hybrid Is the Best Thing BMW Makes."How many competitors are there in the "midsized, two-row SUV" category? That categorization winnows the field quite a bit, and to come in fifth place in that category doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence...
https://www.motortrend.com/style/luxury-suv/
Post by: chesebert on December 30, 2021, 06:26:13 PM
Post by: Radagast on December 30, 2021, 07:33:31 PM
Post by: Radagast on December 30, 2021, 07:44:16 PM
On Monday we test drove 5 vehicles, and on Tuesday decided X5 was the one. On Monday the dealer said we could expect delivery in 3 months. On Wednesday we filled in paperwork to deposit $2,500 for the vehicle. Then the dealer said on Wednesday that on Tuesday the price had gone up $1,200 and it had not been reflected on the website yet, nor had he let us know it would or had happened, and no discount was possible, and by the way it would take at least 6 months for the vehicle to arrive. The apparent bait and switch cause the bursting of the emotional purchase bubble, so all bets are now off again. That sort of thing might be ok for someone buying 10,000 feet of pipe, but not a wise sales move for a purely emotional and frivolous consumer purchase with hundreds of alternatives, most of them better.
Post by: chesebert on December 30, 2021, 09:06:41 PM
UPDATE:What was the on the road price? 6 months wait is normal right now for high tech trims (high number of chips).
On Monday we test drove 5 vehicles, and on Tuesday decided X5 was the one. On Monday the dealer said we could expect delivery in 3 months. On Wednesday we filled in paperwork to deposit $2,500 for the vehicle. Then the dealer said on Wednesday that on Tuesday the price had gone up $1,200 and it had not been reflected on the website yet, nor had he let us know it would or had happened, and no discount was possible, and by the way it would take at least 6 months for the vehicle to arrive. The apparent bait and switch cause the bursting of the emotional purchase bubble, so all bets are now off again. That sort of thing might be ok for someone buying 10,000 feet of pipe, but not a wise sales move for a purely emotional and frivolous consumer purchase with hundreds of alternatives, most of them better.
Post by: Radagast on December 30, 2021, 09:15:45 PM
Post by: Sibley on December 30, 2021, 09:58:52 PM
Post by: Radagast on December 30, 2021, 10:06:58 PM
Post by: Chris Pascale on December 30, 2021, 10:47:47 PM
Post by: Radagast on December 30, 2021, 11:30:57 PM
To get half price we'd need to go back to 2014, which at $32,000 is about the same price as it would have been when we first looked at these in 2016. (Actually I recall a 2014 with like 80,000 miles was worth about $30,000 back in 2016, and in 2022 a 2014 with 57,000 miles goes for $32,000.)
And for that reason I think that used vehicles don't seem like a great deal right now.
Post by: Exflyboy on January 03, 2022, 02:40:20 PM
Goes like stink and handles well too.
Post by: Just Joe on January 04, 2022, 12:44:52 PM
My brother and SIL sold their minivan because SIL wanted an SUV, pretty much solely because minivans in their area are looked down upon. Less practical in almost every way, the SUV is just what she wanted and it fits in better. The Mercedes has nothing to do with what will work and everything to do with what looks right.
Aren't minivans pretty much universally looked down upon in the USA? Same with the station wagon before that.
Its funny to me b/c the minivan is probably the best kind of people and stuff mover on the market but I guess it isn't cool to use logic and make solid long term choices. Must chase coolness... ;)
Post by: jinga nation on January 04, 2022, 01:01:36 PM
My brother and SIL sold their minivan because SIL wanted an SUV, pretty much solely because minivans in their area are looked down upon. Less practical in almost every way, the SUV is just what she wanted and it fits in better. The Mercedes has nothing to do with what will work and everything to do with what looks right.
Aren't minivans pretty much universally looked down upon in the USA? Same with the station wagon before that.
Its funny to me b/c the minivan is probably the best kind of people and stuff mover on the market but I guess it isn't cool to use logic and make solid long term choices. Must chase coolness... ;)
Not in my metro. Toyota's Sienna Hybrids and Honda Odyssey's are barely on the lot, with an order backlog at my nearest Toyota dealer. (Co-worker has been trying buy a new one of either model, but he refuses to pay over MSRP. Meanwhile dealers are tacking on a couple of grand and still selling.)
Used minivan prices are up too. Check out the price trends: https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/price-trends/
Post by: zolotiyeruki on January 04, 2022, 01:37:11 PM
Aren't minivans pretty much universally looked down upon in the USA? Same with the station wagon before that.It's purely a marketing schtick. SUVs are portrayed rugged vehicles that can tackle tough terrain, despite the fact that few SUVs are actually capable of anything worse than a speed bump, and even fewer see anything other than pavement. At the same time, minivans are portrayed as the vehicle for those who have given up on their dreams of personal fulfillment in favor of raising children, as if raising children is nothing more than obligatory drudgery.
Its funny to me b/c the minivan is probably the best kind of people and stuff mover on the market but I guess it isn't cool to use logic and make solid long term choices. Must chase coolness... ;)
You're right that the minivan is absolutely the most practical vehicle on the market--comfortable* seating for eight, massive cargo capacity, and reasonable gas mileage.
* - depending on the model and which seat you're in. I think Honda's the only one left with comfortable seats for all 8 passengers, given Toyota's latest generation of Sienna.
Not in my metro. Toyota's Sienna Hybrids and Honda Odyssey's are barely on the lot, with an order backlog at my nearest Toyota dealer. (Co-worker has been trying buy a new one of either model, but he refuses to pay over MSRP. Meanwhile dealers are tacking on a couple of grand and still selling.)I wonder if the global chip shortage has force manufacturers to prioritize, and they prioritized SUVs over minivans? You're right that minivan prices are crazy, though--we've been in the market for a long time, and we've seen depreciation due to age drop to near zero.
Used minivan prices are up too. Check out the price trends: https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/price-trends/
Post by: Exflyboy on January 04, 2022, 05:33:27 PM
Recently we were driving down this waterlogged gravel road in the Passport SUV. Came across a guy who had driven into a ditch and was almost laying on its side.
DW was "ohh we can help pull him out".. Like our SUV was built like our beater F250 truck... Nope! This is a car and not built anything like the F250.. Not only that chances are he would have needed 2 F250's to have any chance of getting him out.
Like you say, SUV's really are cars with more ground clearance.. Fun for what they are but easily destroyed off pavement.
Post by: Just Joe on January 05, 2022, 02:17:32 PM
Our unibody SUV has a suspension tuned for on-pavement handling. On rough roads it would shake itself to pieces unless driven moderately.
That said - I have done some towing with it. Rough gravel roads and 1500 lb camper. Towed a vintage tractor around with a chain when it couldn't start. Long distances and loaded utility trailer. Snow, mud, grassy fields, etc. Just go slow. ;)
Post by: JLee on January 06, 2022, 07:06:25 AM
Your'e right @zolotiyerukiThere are a few body on frame SUVs left (Toyota 4Runner/Landcruiser, Lexus GX/LX come to mind) but they're absolutely a dying breed.
Recently we were driving down this waterlogged gravel road in the Passport SUV. Came across a guy who had driven into a ditch and was almost laying on its side.
DW was "ohh we can help pull him out".. Like our SUV was built like our beater F250 truck... Nope! This is a car and not built anything like the F250.. Not only that chances are he would have needed 2 F250's to have any chance of getting him out.
Like you say, SUV's really are cars with more ground clearance.. Fun for what they are but easily destroyed off pavement.
Post by: Just Joe on January 06, 2022, 08:57:39 AM
Post by: mm1970 on January 06, 2022, 01:44:55 PM
And, depending on how old the Civic is...I can say that all new cars seem luxurious. We just rented a car for 2 weeks at Christmas while traveling. It was a small SUV, Nissan. So fancy compared to our 2006 Matrix and 2009 Civic.
Post by: joe189man on January 06, 2022, 03:15:12 PM
Post by: JAYSLOL on January 07, 2022, 01:32:13 AM
UPDATE:
On Monday we test drove 5 vehicles, and on Tuesday decided X5 was the one. On Monday the dealer said we could expect delivery in 3 months. On Wednesday we filled in paperwork to deposit $2,500 for the vehicle. Then the dealer said on Wednesday that on Tuesday the price had gone up $1,200 and it had not been reflected on the website yet, nor had he let us know it would or had happened, and no discount was possible, and by the way it would take at least 6 months for the vehicle to arrive. The apparent bait and switch cause the bursting of the emotional purchase bubble, so all bets are now off again. That sort of thing might be ok for someone buying 10,000 feet of pipe, but not a wise sales move for a purely emotional and frivolous consumer purchase with hundreds of alternatives, most of them better.
As someone who buys irrigation pipe all the time, I can tell you I wouldn’t be at all pleased. If I called in an order on Monday and went in on Wednesday to pick it up and the price had gone up I’d be looking for a new supplier. I can understand supply chain timeline uncertainty, but the price on the website better be the price at the till or they no longer have my business
Post by: Exflyboy on January 07, 2022, 01:46:55 PM
Goodbye!
Needless to say the guy kept calling me.. Nope sorry you lost it now F off!
Post by: RWD on January 07, 2022, 10:58:05 PM
https://www.motor1.com/news/556352/mercedes-eqe-suv-spy-shots/
Post by: Radagast on January 08, 2022, 12:59:20 PM
Like you say, SUV's really are cars with more ground clearance.. Fun for what they are but easily destroyed off pavement.My Subaru Forester is exactly like an Impreza with vertical dimensions multiplied by 1.3. But I have taken it down roads 90% of forester owners, or 90% of Jeep owners for that matter, would not venture on. "Down" being an important part of the sentence.
Unobody vs body-on-frame. There is a difference.Curious again. I lived on gravel roads until I went to college, and have spent quite a bit of time around them otherwise. Tons of people drive unibody vehicles on gravel roads regularly. I haven't noticed a disadvantage compared to a truck or old school SUV. I prefer smaller vehicles on these roads (like all roads) because of their better handling.
Our unibody SUV has a suspension tuned for on-pavement handling. On rough roads it would shake itself to pieces unless driven moderately.
That said - I have done some towing with it. Rough gravel roads and 1500 lb camper. Towed a vintage tractor around with a chain when it couldn't start. Long distances and loaded utility trailer. Snow, mud, grassy fields, etc. Just go slow. ;)
Post by: Radagast on January 08, 2022, 01:03:57 PM
True, especially if you had been talking to that same supplier for over a month while figuring out what diameter and material, and you didn't get a heads up by phone about the looming increase either.UPDATE:
On Monday we test drove 5 vehicles, and on Tuesday decided X5 was the one. On Monday the dealer said we could expect delivery in 3 months. On Wednesday we filled in paperwork to deposit $2,500 for the vehicle. Then the dealer said on Wednesday that on Tuesday the price had gone up $1,200 and it had not been reflected on the website yet, nor had he let us know it would or had happened, and no discount was possible, and by the way it would take at least 6 months for the vehicle to arrive. The apparent bait and switch cause the bursting of the emotional purchase bubble, so all bets are now off again. That sort of thing might be ok for someone buying 10,000 feet of pipe, but not a wise sales move for a purely emotional and frivolous consumer purchase with hundreds of alternatives, most of them better.
As someone who buys irrigation pipe all the time, I can tell you I wouldn’t be at all pleased. If I called in an order on Monday and went in on Wednesday to pick it up and the price had gone up I’d be looking for a new supplier. I can understand supply chain timeline uncertainty, but the price on the website better be the price at the till or they no longer have my business
Post by: Radagast on January 08, 2022, 01:09:41 PM
Mercedes GLE is going to be obsoleted by the EV version soon:I think that's true of many vehicles. I read it about the Volvos too, and others I forgot.
https://www.motor1.com/news/556352/mercedes-eqe-suv-spy-shots/
Post by: Radagast on January 08, 2022, 01:35:51 PM
The current list is:
~10 Year Future Cost Model
$112,747 Honda CRV Hybrid
$114,566 Toyota RAV4 Prime PHEV
$117,201 VW ID.4 Electric
$128,213 Toyota Venza Hybrid
$132,613 Chrysler Pacifica PHEV
$144,476 Volvo XC40 Electric
We have been using the Costco auto program with the hope of getting below MSRP, but the Volvo and VW dealers withdrew from it, and the others are saying the vehicles are unavailable or are order only. We also have not even seen three of the vehicles on the list. I wouldn't expect to see an ID.4, and we are out of time to go look at the Venza and RAV4. We only sat in a 2020 CRV, no real drive.
Post by: RWD on January 08, 2022, 02:52:48 PM
I wouldn't expect to see an ID.4 [...]There should be ID.4s available for test drives. There are 444 listings for brand new ID.4s on cars.com across the country. Definitely one of the best values in EVs right now.
Post by: RWD on January 08, 2022, 02:55:09 PM
Ah, I should also note that the Audi Q4 e-tron is basically the same vehicle, but supposedly a little more luxurious, for $4k more. I would guess the ID.4 would be easier to buy right now, but it could be considered as an alternative with more brand prestige.I wouldn't expect to see an ID.4 [...]There should be ID.4s available for test drives. There are 444 listings for brand new ID.4s on cars.com across the country. Definitely one of the best values in EVs right now.
Post by: Just Joe on January 08, 2022, 09:24:15 PM
Curious again. I lived on gravel roads until I went to college, and have spent quite a bit of time around them otherwise. Tons of people drive unibody vehicles on gravel roads regularly. I haven't noticed a disadvantage compared to a truck or old school SUV. I prefer smaller vehicles on these roads (like all roads) because of their better handling.
I have no problems with unibodies. Our SUV (Acura) is just setup with a sporty suspension. It just doesn't do rough gravel roads well unless it is driven slowly. Suspension is just too tight. All most all of the vehicle's I've owned were unibodies. I've owned about 3 dozen vehicles over the years b/c I used to buy/repair/sell them for spending money.
Post by: uniwelder on January 09, 2022, 02:52:02 AM
…and we are out of time to go look at the Venza and RAV4…
What’s going on? I thought the vehicle decision was no rush.
Post by: Radagast on January 09, 2022, 01:42:17 PM
The Q4 would make sense, fully loaded it is the same price as a base XC40. And the brand is worth spending money on that alone :D :`( It just doesn't have enough availability, doubtful we could get one until around the end of the year without ever seeing it first (based on a conversation with a dealer in November, we just haven't pursued it farther).Ah, I should also note that the Audi Q4 e-tron is basically the same vehicle, but supposedly a little more luxurious, for $4k more. I would guess the ID.4 would be easier to buy right now, but it could be considered as an alternative with more brand prestige.I wouldn't expect to see an ID.4 [...]There should be ID.4s available for test drives. There are 444 listings for brand new ID.4s on cars.com across the country. Definitely one of the best values in EVs right now.
Post by: Radagast on January 09, 2022, 01:44:49 PM
According to me there is no rush. But our work schedules 80% of the time have only one overlapping day off per week, and packing baby to go drive cars is not necessarily the best use of that day.…and we are out of time to go look at the Venza and RAV4…
What’s going on? I thought the vehicle decision was no rush.
Post by: Just Joe on January 10, 2022, 10:14:09 AM
Post by: mm1970 on January 10, 2022, 01:35:55 PM
Get a baby sitter. Dealers will take advantage of rushed parents of cranky babies come negotiating time...
Or don't...
Long ago and far away (2006), my old Saturn sorta bit the dust. The battery would drain when it rained. Annoying. One Saturday morning we made an appt "down south" (30-40 miles) to drop it off at the dealer to see if they could fix it. It was over a decade old at that point, and not worth much. We decided the night before to look at new cars while we were there. Started off across the street at the Toyota dealer (yeah, we'd done some research before going). Found the Matrix. Test drove it. Thought about buying it.
We were there shopping with our 4 month old baby. We were hungry for lunch. The dealer said "if you come back, and bring us your receipt, we'll buy your lunch."
Well, we didn't only just eat lunch, we also found a Best Buy with a computer model hooked up to the internet, and did some more research on the car, by looking up the dealer price from Consumer reports.
So, we went back and made them a final offer. They dicked around, of course, for about 2 hours
Them: "how about this much?"
Us: "No."
Them: "I think we can go lower, let me ask my boss...how about this much?"
Us: "Um, that's HIGHER than the last number?"
Then, at around 3:30 or 4 pm (we'd been in the area for hours by then, and I'd already nursed the baby at least 4 times), I stood up and said "look, we aren't getting anywhere. I'm tired, the baby's tired, we are done here."
And, we got the price. When they started the financing talk, we wrote a check.
Unlike everyone else having their picture taken with their keys, they literally threw the keys at us and said "bye".
Sure, good deals may be hard to find these days, but don't underestimate the ability of using the baby to walk away, if you think both of you can do that.
Post by: Radagast on January 10, 2022, 09:41:59 PM
Post by: Askel on January 11, 2022, 06:43:00 AM
Then, at around 3:30 or 4 pm (we'd been in the area for hours by then, and I'd already nursed the baby at least 4 times), I stood up and said "look, we aren't getting anywhere. I'm tired, the baby's tired, we are done here."
Haha, this reminds me of the time I went with my dad to buy a car (a zero option geo metro, it's no wonder I ended up on this web site :D ). He also had my younger sister for the day, so brought her along as well.
My little sister found the kid's activities over in the service department while my dad and I got down to business. My dad is clearly a fan of the "walk away" tactic and after several attempts by the dealer to come up with something and my dad threatening to head home and think about it, it looked like we weren't going to get anywhere. So after one last offer unsatisfactory offer was presented, my dad and I get up to leave and start walking out the door to our car when it hits him.
"WAIT. SHIT. YOUR SISTER!"
Yep, still happily playing in the service department. Upon returning inside, the dealer was able to make to make one final offer that made something stick. I think it was a sticker package. So instead of a plain white zero option 1990s geo metro, we had one that looked like a fast food cup.
Post by: Just Joe on January 16, 2022, 02:37:52 PM
So instead of a plain white zero option 1990s geo metro, we had one that looked like a fast food cup.
And all the RVs for the past 30 years.... ;)
I'm a fan of walking out. Told the one and only new car dealer we bought a car with that they had ~30 minutes to get their numbers right b/c I had other things to do that day. He did and we bought the car. That was 22 years ago. Still driving that car today. He had the best price of several dealers we visited over the course of a month or so.
Just give me the price already - the final price. Haggling is such a time waster. One of the benefits of having money is not having to haggle. I witnessed car deals as a kid fail over a $50 difference after a couple of hours worth of pacing and chin scratching.
I know folks complain about CarMax but in our area, their price was very good for what we bought in 2017.
Post by: Radagast on January 31, 2022, 10:01:30 PM
Crazy time to be buying cars. Across the board, loads of options from the 2021 models are standard or unavailable. The Volvo XC40 is actually the cheapest electric SUV, since all others tack a $10,000 "market adjustment" onto MSRP. The 2022 Volvo XC40 ceased production permanently by the middle of January, now you need to wait until the 2023 model. The 2022 Pacifica Hybrid has not even started production yet, the dealer said you cannot even order one, but stay in touch and maybe you can eventually order one. The Pacifica interior now comes in any color as long as it's black (or caramel if you buy the top end). The Toyota dealer said to buy a Sienna we would be 84th on the list, which would mean 8-12 month lead time. The Sienna apparently lost the heads up display this year, why even buy a Sienna then?!?!?
Here is the new list. If some numbers are different, its because I have been changing my trims and methodology. We will probably be going for a Pacifica Hybrid Limited!
10-Year Opportunity Cost
$122,115 VWID.4 Electric
$128,670 Chrysler Pacifica LTD PHEV
$136,048 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle PHEV
$136,292 Volvo XC40 Electric
$149,965 Chrysler Pacifica TouringL FWD
$150,767 Toyota Sienna Hybrid
$155,248 Honda Odyssey Elite
$156,188 Audi E-Tron Electric
$164,246 Chrysler Pacifica LTD AWD
$194,326 BMW X5 PHEV
Post by: elaine amj on February 01, 2022, 01:26:39 AM
We have used it sooooooo much in the past 1.5 years. I love being able to flip and flop seats to reconfigure things. It’s pretty astonishing how often I use it.
I could not go hybrid because you loose second row stow n go (to house the battery).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: joe189man on February 01, 2022, 09:25:11 PM
one thing that led us to an odyssey over the pacifica a few years ago was the Pacifica didnt have a spare or a full size spare. we had an issue with a flat on a cross country trip a while back and DW said never again.
Post by: HPstache on February 01, 2022, 10:04:59 PM
Post by: ysette9 on February 01, 2022, 10:37:43 PM
Post by: zolotiyeruki on February 02, 2022, 09:05:44 AM
I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).OP started off with a spouse that wanted a luxury SUV, which, around here, is considered to be a tremendously vulgar waste of money. Getting the spouse to agree to a minivan represents tremendous progress. Sure, their needs could be met with a sedan, but we recognize the progress that has been made :)
Post by: ysette9 on February 02, 2022, 12:42:08 PM
Ok, ok. I just have a visceral dislike of minivans on principle. Personally I’d go back to the luxury SUV before going down minivan territory. Hell, I’d ride a cargo bike with a bike trailer attached to the back before a minivan.I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).OP started off with a spouse that wanted a luxury SUV, which, around here, is considered to be a tremendously vulgar waste of money. Getting the spouse to agree to a minivan represents tremendous progress. Sure, their needs could be met with a sedan, but we recognize the progress that has been made :)
Post by: Chris22 on February 02, 2022, 01:15:36 PM
Ok, ok. I just have a visceral dislike of minivans on principle. Personally I’d go back to the luxury SUV before going down minivan territory. Hell, I’d ride a cargo bike with a bike trailer attached to the back before a minivan.I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).OP started off with a spouse that wanted a luxury SUV, which, around here, is considered to be a tremendously vulgar waste of money. Getting the spouse to agree to a minivan represents tremendous progress. Sure, their needs could be met with a sedan, but we recognize the progress that has been made :)
I don’t like minivans either but I love the Stellantis PHEV platform and it’s the most reasonable way to get it (my way was decidedly unreasonable but I don’t care)
Post by: zolotiyeruki on February 02, 2022, 01:29:56 PM
Out of curiosity, what is the principle driving your visceral dislike for minivans?Ok, ok. I just have a visceral dislike of minivans on principle. Personally I’d go back to the luxury SUV before going down minivan territory. Hell, I’d ride a cargo bike with a bike trailer attached to the back before a minivan.I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).OP started off with a spouse that wanted a luxury SUV, which, around here, is considered to be a tremendously vulgar waste of money. Getting the spouse to agree to a minivan represents tremendous progress. Sure, their needs could be met with a sedan, but we recognize the progress that has been made :)
Post by: boarder42 on February 02, 2022, 01:53:53 PM
Out of curiosity, what is the principle driving your visceral dislike for minivans?Ok, ok. I just have a visceral dislike of minivans on principle. Personally I’d go back to the luxury SUV before going down minivan territory. Hell, I’d ride a cargo bike with a bike trailer attached to the back before a minivan.I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).OP started off with a spouse that wanted a luxury SUV, which, around here, is considered to be a tremendously vulgar waste of money. Getting the spouse to agree to a minivan represents tremendous progress. Sure, their needs could be met with a sedan, but we recognize the progress that has been made :)
Yeah I'm curious as well the second hand market is incredibly affordable. For my giant 6'4 frame it's far easier with child seats. The utility and being able to open and close all doors with a button. As well as the sliding doors when in a parking lot with other cars parked closely to unload and load kids. The ability to empty out the back and fit all sorts of things when I need to haul larger amounts of stuff. The list keeps going.
If you'd just said bike trailer that'd be one thing respected in these parts but you said luxury SUV which means you just have a psychological problem with the idea of the car bc of how it's been branded in society?
Post by: elaine amj on February 02, 2022, 11:56:09 PM
Awww..I’ve had a minivan since my 2nd baby. My kids are adults now and when my old one needed replacing, I bought another one. I don’t know if I could ever handle life without one again lol. I adore all the storage space as we road trip a lot. The cooking supplies alone take up a ton of space (DH is a cancer warrior who eats a certain way so I usually lug along an instant pot for his soups and a large juicer for his daily juice. And of course, a giant cooler because I hate the time and extra expense of grocery shopping at vacation destinations. Many times I wish the vitamix came along too lol!) I also buy most of my stuff secondhand so the minivan comes in super handy.Ok, ok. I just have a visceral dislike of minivans on principle. Personally I’d go back to the luxury SUV before going down minivan territory. Hell, I’d ride a cargo bike with a bike trailer attached to the back before a minivan.I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).OP started off with a spouse that wanted a luxury SUV, which, around here, is considered to be a tremendously vulgar waste of money. Getting the spouse to agree to a minivan represents tremendous progress. Sure, their needs could be met with a sedan, but we recognize the progress that has been made :)
I’ve looked at friends’ vehicles and nothing comes close to the space and flexibility of the minivan.
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Post by: mm1970 on February 03, 2022, 01:46:31 PM
I LOVE minivans. I WANT a minivan.Ok, ok. I just have a visceral dislike of minivans on principle. Personally I’d go back to the luxury SUV before going down minivan territory. Hell, I’d ride a cargo bike with a bike trailer attached to the back before a minivan.I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).OP started off with a spouse that wanted a luxury SUV, which, around here, is considered to be a tremendously vulgar waste of money. Getting the spouse to agree to a minivan represents tremendous progress. Sure, their needs could be met with a sedan, but we recognize the progress that has been made :)
I am seriously considering a small SUV.
But alas, in reality, as crappy as it is, my 2006 Matrix just won't die.
---
Why do I want a minivan? Leg room. Road trip storage. Hauling stuff for home improvement. TOWING a camper/ trailer.
All those things we don't do...but would we? Would we actually like camping more if we didn't have to stuff 4 people + a dog's gear in the back of a Matrix and into a Thule box?
I mean, we could have more room. We could camp in a camper not a tent...
Would we go on longer road trips if either my teenager or I didn't have to sit scrunched in the back seat? Scrunching does not help the 2 of us (him and I) who get carsick.
---
I do like that tight turning radius on the Matrix tho...
Post by: zolotiyeruki on February 03, 2022, 03:00:03 PM
FWIW, I've seen lots of instances where people make purchases (often large ones!), hoping it will help them change. For example, gym memberships and treadmill sales spike in January. From what I've seen, if someone really wants something, they'll find ways of doing it, with or without the extra purchase. Lack of motivation is a much stronger inhibitor than inconvenience. Without that intrinsic motivation, that aspirational treadmill purchase rapidly turns into a very expensive clothing rack.I LOVE minivans. I WANT a minivan.Ok, ok. I just have a visceral dislike of minivans on principle. Personally I’d go back to the luxury SUV before going down minivan territory. Hell, I’d ride a cargo bike with a bike trailer attached to the back before a minivan.I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).OP started off with a spouse that wanted a luxury SUV, which, around here, is considered to be a tremendously vulgar waste of money. Getting the spouse to agree to a minivan represents tremendous progress. Sure, their needs could be met with a sedan, but we recognize the progress that has been made :)
I am seriously considering a small SUV.
But alas, in reality, as crappy as it is, my 2006 Matrix just won't die.
---
Why do I want a minivan? Leg room. Road trip storage. Hauling stuff for home improvement. TOWING a camper/ trailer.
All those things we don't do...but would we? Would we actually like camping more if we didn't have to stuff 4 people + a dog's gear in the back of a Matrix and into a Thule box?
I mean, we could have more room. We could camp in a camper not a tent...
Would we go on longer road trips if either my teenager or I didn't have to sit scrunched in the back seat? Scrunching does not help the 2 of us (him and I) who get carsick.
---
I do like that tight turning radius on the Matrix tho...
If you're already camping regularly, then sure, a camper may increase your enjoyment. If you already take road trips, then a car with more leg room will make a difference.
If you're looking for a more comfortable vehicle for longer trips, you might consider a mid-size or larger sedan. A Camry or Accord will be way more comfortable for a long trip, albeit with less baggage space. Or maybe even go for an Avalon--I've heard they are positively heavenly for longer drives.
Post by: Radagast on February 04, 2022, 09:49:51 AM
I debated between the minivan brands. And ultimately could not see myself without stow n go.I really like the stow and go seats, but the primary use of the van would be trips under 32 miles per day with maybe 50% "city" driving, so the hybrid is ideal. The extra 10-year cost of $30,000 isn't worth it.
We have used it sooooooo much in the past 1.5 years. I love being able to flip and flop seats to reconfigure things. It’s pretty astonishing how often I use it.
I could not go hybrid because you loose second row stow n go (to house the battery).
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Post by: Radagast on February 04, 2022, 10:46:02 AM
@Radagast i am surprised you don't like the sienna, its a hybrid and has AWD, Consumer reports has the carnival and sienna as the top buys.If I ranked by just how good the vehicles are (excluding reliability, fuel economy, and cost) I would rank:
one thing that led us to an odyssey over the pacifica a few years ago was the Pacifica didnt have a spare or a full size spare. we had an issue with a flat on a cross country trip a while back and DW said never again.
1 Regular Pacifica. As good as any of the others, but the stowable seats put it over the top
2 Odyssey, not as many whiz bang features as a Carnival, but better thought out, and best turning radius
3 Carnival, nicer but not as well sorted as the Odyssey, acts like a bigger vehicle than it should
4 Pacifica Hybrid loses a few options, especially configurable seats
5 Sienna Really just doesn't do anything well except AWD, and easily the least pleasant to be in.
Ranking by cost/reliability/resale value:
1. Pacifica Hybrid. The tax credit and electric range easily put it over the top.
2. Sienna head and shoulders above the rest, except it doesn't have the PHEV advantages
3. Carnival, average, low price, great warranty, but bad fuel economy and not even AWD to show for it
4. Odyssey doesn't do anything bad, but nothing great either.
5. Pacifica expensive, poor resale, fuel economy average or worst (AWD), not especially reliable
Basically the lists are just reversed, except the Sienna and Pac Hybrid, which moves those models to the bottom and top of my value rankings, respectively. Whoever designed the Carnival had different priorities than me, so I'd stay away. The Odyssey and standard Pacifica are tied for second.
Lack of spare tire is concerning.
Post by: Radagast on February 04, 2022, 10:49:32 AM
I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).We really don't. An eGolf would be perfect. You are more badass than me though. I would definitely get a minivan for a family of 5!
Post by: elaine amj on February 04, 2022, 09:03:22 PM
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Post by: Radagast on February 04, 2022, 10:19:49 PM
Yeah I'm curious as well the second hand market is incredibly affordable.I hazard a guess that you haven't looked at the second hand minivan market recently, as 2020 Chrysler Pacificas with 12,000 miles are selling for the MSRP of brand new 2022's.
Post by: Radagast on February 04, 2022, 10:28:54 PM
BTW I recently had a ride in a high end Honda Accord, and it was amazing. The inside was as large and well appointed as a Cadillac, and the hybrid version gets 47 miles per gallon. I made a strong argument for one, but spouse doesn't want a car, and lets not kid ourselves that a van is way more practical.FWIW, I've seen lots of instances where people make purchases (often large ones!), hoping it will help them change. For example, gym memberships and treadmill sales spike in January. From what I've seen, if someone really wants something, they'll find ways of doing it, with or without the extra purchase. Lack of motivation is a much stronger inhibitor than inconvenience. Without that intrinsic motivation, that aspirational treadmill purchase rapidly turns into a very expensive clothing rack.I LOVE minivans. I WANT a minivan.Ok, ok. I just have a visceral dislike of minivans on principle. Personally I’d go back to the luxury SUV before going down minivan territory. Hell, I’d ride a cargo bike with a bike trailer attached to the back before a minivan.I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).OP started off with a spouse that wanted a luxury SUV, which, around here, is considered to be a tremendously vulgar waste of money. Getting the spouse to agree to a minivan represents tremendous progress. Sure, their needs could be met with a sedan, but we recognize the progress that has been made :)
I am seriously considering a small SUV.
But alas, in reality, as crappy as it is, my 2006 Matrix just won't die.
---
Why do I want a minivan? Leg room. Road trip storage. Hauling stuff for home improvement. TOWING a camper/ trailer.
All those things we don't do...but would we? Would we actually like camping more if we didn't have to stuff 4 people + a dog's gear in the back of a Matrix and into a Thule box?
I mean, we could have more room. We could camp in a camper not a tent...
Would we go on longer road trips if either my teenager or I didn't have to sit scrunched in the back seat? Scrunching does not help the 2 of us (him and I) who get carsick.
---
I do like that tight turning radius on the Matrix tho...
If you're already camping regularly, then sure, a camper may increase your enjoyment. If you already take road trips, then a car with more leg room will make a difference.
If you're looking for a more comfortable vehicle for longer trips, you might consider a mid-size or larger sedan. A Camry or Accord will be way more comfortable for a long trip, albeit with less baggage space. Or maybe even go for an Avalon--I've heard they are positively heavenly for longer drives.
Post by: Radagast on February 04, 2022, 10:34:07 PM
It really comes down to value. A Fit or Matrix has basically about as much utility as any 5-passenger car or SUV in existence, but is less expensive to buy and operate. Above that, a minivan is much larger and more expensive, but is also the only thing that adds proportional utility to its price compared to a hatchback. Sure a van is an excessive purchase if you don't need it, but you get what you pay for. As an example, a Honda Pilot and Odyssey are basically the same price with front wheel drive, but the minivan offers way more space, the space is much more configurable, and is gets better fuel economy. A hatchback, a wagon, and a minivan are the top of the value curve, while SUVs and sedans are not. Really the whole point of an SUV or sedan is to show you can afford to waste money (but especially the SUV).Ok, ok. I just have a visceral dislike of minivans on principle. Personally I’d go back to the luxury SUV before going down minivan territory. Hell, I’d ride a cargo bike with a bike trailer attached to the back before a minivan.I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).OP started off with a spouse that wanted a luxury SUV, which, around here, is considered to be a tremendously vulgar waste of money. Getting the spouse to agree to a minivan represents tremendous progress. Sure, their needs could be met with a sedan, but we recognize the progress that has been made :)
Post by: boarder42 on February 05, 2022, 03:03:58 AM
Yeah I'm curious as well the second hand market is incredibly affordable.I hazard a guess that you haven't looked at the second hand minivan market recently, as 2020 Chrysler Pacificas with 12,000 miles are selling for the MSRP of brand new 2022's.
You're not looking old enough
Post by: RetiredAt63 on February 05, 2022, 06:25:58 AM
Really the whole point of an SUV or sedan is to show you can afford to waste money (but especially the SUV).
My next vehicle may be a small SUV (crossover?) simply because I will sit higher. So many SUVs and trucks and minivans in my city means I get a lot of headlights straight in my eyes when I drive at night.
Post by: boarder42 on February 05, 2022, 06:41:25 AM
Really the whole point of an SUV or sedan is to show you can afford to waste money (but especially the SUV).
My next vehicle may be a small SUV (crossover?) simply because I will sit higher. So many SUVs and trucks and minivans in my city means I get a lot of headlights straight in my eyes when I drive at night.
I'm 6'4 I don't like getting down into cars.
Post by: ysette9 on February 05, 2022, 08:32:54 AM
I think it comes down to a matter of taste. To me bigger equals worse. Harder to park and maneuver, super unpleasant to drive. A Cadillac is the epitome of everything I dislike in a vehicle with the nausea-inducing boat-on-the-high-seas suspension. I once drove a truck (company vehicle) and it was like steering a Jell-O shot on wheels. Why anyone would choose such disfunction blew my mind. But clearly lots of people like that and choose it willingly so I just chalk it up to different taste.BTW I recently had a ride in a high end Honda Accord, and it was amazing. The inside was as large and well appointed as a Cadillac, and the hybrid version gets 47 miles per gallon. I made a strong argument for one, but spouse doesn't want a car, and lets not kid ourselves that a van is way more practical.FWIW, I've seen lots of instances where people make purchases (often large ones!), hoping it will help them change. For example, gym memberships and treadmill sales spike in January. From what I've seen, if someone really wants something, they'll find ways of doing it, with or without the extra purchase. Lack of motivation is a much stronger inhibitor than inconvenience. Without that intrinsic motivation, that aspirational treadmill purchase rapidly turns into a very expensive clothing rack.I LOVE minivans. I WANT a minivan.Ok, ok. I just have a visceral dislike of minivans on principle. Personally I’d go back to the luxury SUV before going down minivan territory. Hell, I’d ride a cargo bike with a bike trailer attached to the back before a minivan.I’m a slow one here so bear with me. Why does a family of four mean a minivan? We are a family of five in a GTI (Golf).OP started off with a spouse that wanted a luxury SUV, which, around here, is considered to be a tremendously vulgar waste of money. Getting the spouse to agree to a minivan represents tremendous progress. Sure, their needs could be met with a sedan, but we recognize the progress that has been made :)
I am seriously considering a small SUV.
But alas, in reality, as crappy as it is, my 2006 Matrix just won't die.
---
Why do I want a minivan? Leg room. Road trip storage. Hauling stuff for home improvement. TOWING a camper/ trailer.
All those things we don't do...but would we? Would we actually like camping more if we didn't have to stuff 4 people + a dog's gear in the back of a Matrix and into a Thule box?
I mean, we could have more room. We could camp in a camper not a tent...
Would we go on longer road trips if either my teenager or I didn't have to sit scrunched in the back seat? Scrunching does not help the 2 of us (him and I) who get carsick.
---
I do like that tight turning radius on the Matrix tho...
If you're already camping regularly, then sure, a camper may increase your enjoyment. If you already take road trips, then a car with more leg room will make a difference.
If you're looking for a more comfortable vehicle for longer trips, you might consider a mid-size or larger sedan. A Camry or Accord will be way more comfortable for a long trip, albeit with less baggage space. Or maybe even go for an Avalon--I've heard they are positively heavenly for longer drives.
Post by: Radagast on February 05, 2022, 12:47:51 PM
I'm not really seeing anything that looks like a great deal. Some that might be OKish at best. If we assume linear depreciation, for example an Odyssey lasts 200,000 miles, and thus should lose 5% of its value every 10,000 miles, then everything right now is higher priced than that line. Prices are almost mirrored across that line from how it used to be (which seems more logical I admit).Yeah I'm curious as well the second hand market is incredibly affordable.I hazard a guess that you haven't looked at the second hand minivan market recently, as 2020 Chrysler Pacificas with 12,000 miles are selling for the MSRP of brand new 2022's.
You're not looking old enough
On carmax the best thing I casually see is a 2014 Sienna LE with 126,000 miles (half gone) for $19,000. A brand new one is $36,000 and uses 1/3 less fuel per mile. It is still financially better to get the older van considering opportunity cost on a $20,000 vehicle is less than on a $40,000 vehicle, but the used car market did not historically consider opportunity cost.
Post by: Radagast on February 05, 2022, 12:51:56 PM
I admit there is a reasonable case for the 2-row cross over, like a RAV4, CRV, or Forester, which are basically just tall Corollas, Civics, and Imprezas. They are at a better height, but at the cost of higher price and reduced fuel economy. Longer than that though, and a minivan is the better choice.Really the whole point of an SUV or sedan is to show you can afford to waste money (but especially the SUV).
My next vehicle may be a small SUV (crossover?) simply because I will sit higher. So many SUVs and trucks and minivans in my city means I get a lot of headlights straight in my eyes when I drive at night.
I'm 6'4 I don't like getting down into cars.
Post by: LD_TAndK on February 06, 2022, 04:51:08 AM
I admit there is a reasonable case for the 2-row cross over, like a RAV4, CRV, or Forester, which are basically just tall Corollas, Civics, and Imprezas. They are at a better height, but at the cost of higher price and reduced fuel economy. Longer than that though, and a minivan is the better choice.
I find the 2-row crossovers, as compared to my civic, are actually a bit bigger in the interior, more driver and passenger legroom/width, a bit more trunk volume. It's not a huge improvement but it could make the difference to someone 6'4" or who needs just a little more storage, but doesn't want to go all the way to minivan. I feel bad putting adults in the back of my civic, but not so in my relative's forester.
Of course a full size sedan (camry, accord, etc) probably fills those space requirements with better fuel economy at a similar price point.
Post by: economista on February 06, 2022, 06:59:04 AM
Post by: Chris22 on February 06, 2022, 06:23:40 PM
Post by: 20957 on February 06, 2022, 07:04:09 PM
Post by: mm1970 on February 07, 2022, 02:25:30 PM
Quote
FWIW, I've seen lots of instances where people make purchases (often large ones!), hoping it will help them change. For example, gym memberships and treadmill sales spike in January. From what I've seen, if someone really wants something, they'll find ways of doing it, with or without the extra purchase. Lack of motivation is a much stronger inhibitor than inconvenience. Without that intrinsic motivation, that aspirational treadmill purchase rapidly turns into a very expensive clothing rack.Or as I like to put it "inertia is a powerful force".
Or, our most powerful force. Do I want a bigger house? Yes, but too lazy to move. A bigger car? Sure, but this one isn't broken.
I sold car #1 when I moved cross country and we went down to 1 car.
Sold that car (DH's car, car #0) when it got unreliable and replaced with car #2. Still a 1 car family.
Bought a 2nd car (Car #3) when DH graduated from PhD and got a job.
Bought car #4 and got rid of Car #2 when it became unreliable (it was an early 90's Saturn)
Bought car #5 when car #3 was totaled (T-boned).
Likewise with jobs, post college.
Job #1 - I was in the Navy, and I did my 5 years, and they basically kick you out after that (where I was)
Job #2 - company went bankrupt.
Job #3 - company shut down my group and offered to transfer me to a different group. I didn't like those terms.
Job #4 - 13 years and counting...
I like camping but I'm the only one, and so our vacations of late tend to be road trips with mostly hotel/ AirBNB stays, because it makes everyone happy. It doesn't help that California has a LOT of people, and to get a campsite you have to book 6 months in advance. That adds another layer of difficulty. And the dog. Sigh.
Post by: elaine amj on February 09, 2022, 10:39:27 AM
Since this thread has a lot of people who have thought about the SUV vs minivan debate - We recently found out that we are expecting our third child. We are a one-vehicle family (my husband is blind so he can’t drive) and we have a 2019 Mitsubishi Outlander. Current children are 1 and 2, so we will have 3 of them in car seats all at the same time. I would like to just put 3 car seats across in our current car but I think we need to buy new car seats. The ones they currently have will not fit 3 across. We would also have to share anchors, as the middle seat doesn’t have them. It is possible to share anchors and get thinner car seats that will fit 3 across, or do we really need to find a minivan? I’m worried about the low inventory right now for used and new vehicles.No - you cannot share anchors. As far as I remember (my car seat days are long over so I am not up to date anymore), all u should have to do is install 2 seats with anchors and the 3rd in the middle with the seatbelts. Just learn how to install seats with a seatbelt and it should be very secure.
I know there are specific slimmer models of car seats that you can get that will fit 3 across so you don’t have to upsize your car if you don’t want to.
OP - I did the math between used and new too when I bought my minivan. I found used priced pretty high and it was only slightly more to buy new, which then gave me peace of mind with the warranty. Still I found it useful when shopping to consider both used and new and negotiate with each dealer for final prices so I knew where I stood.
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Post by: NorthernIkigai on February 12, 2022, 12:05:32 AM
Since this thread has a lot of people who have thought about the SUV vs minivan debate - We recently found out that we are expecting our third child. We are a one-vehicle family (my husband is blind so he can’t drive) and we have a 2019 Mitsubishi Outlander. Current children are 1 and 2, so we will have 3 of them in car seats all at the same time. I would like to just put 3 car seats across in our current car but I think we need to buy new car seats. The ones they currently have will not fit 3 across. We would also have to share anchors, as the middle seat doesn’t have them. It is possible to share anchors and get thinner car seats that will fit 3 across, or do we really need to find a minivan? I’m worried about the low inventory right now for used and new vehicles.No - you cannot share anchors. As far as I remember (my car seat days are long over so I am not up to date anymore), all u should have to do is install 2 seats with anchors and the 3rd in the middle with the seatbelts. Just learn how to install seats with a seatbelt and it should be very secure.
I know there are specific slimmer models of car seats that you can get that will fit 3 across so you don’t have to upsize your car if you don’t want to.
OP - I did the math between used and new too when I bought my minivan. I found used priced pretty high and it was only slightly more to buy new, which then gave me peace of mind with the warranty. Still I found it useful when shopping to consider both used and new and negotiate with each dealer for final prices so I knew where I stood.
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My car seat days are in the relatively recent past, and there might be geographical differences in car seat styles and laws, but in my experience using the anchors at all makes this puzzle harder, since they are placed where they are and there’s no changing that.
Car seats with anchors tend to get better safety reviews because it’s almost impossible to mess up their placement in the car, but if you know what you’re doing (and there are always YouTube videos for the specific model to guide you), using the seatbelt is just as safe. And if you always travel with the same car and the same children, even better, just leave them in (the seats, not the children…).
So I’d look into using seatbelts for your existing car seats as well, and see how much space that leaves you in the middle and what models are available. And even if you’d have to get 3 new car seats, that’s a lot cheaper and easier than a new car.
Post by: SailingOnASmallSailboat on February 12, 2022, 06:39:26 AM