Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Money Guru Dave Ramsey’s Social Media Witch Hunt

[Jags4186]

2 things:

1) The difference between 8-12% is only 2-4% (his pitch), but anybody who is educated on money and has played around with compound interest realizes what a huge difference it makes.  I run everything using 7%.

(I know I'm preaching to the choir here, no church pun intended)

I do like to listen to DR if for no other reason to feel better about myself.  What I can't stand though is exactly what Big Money Guy said.  8% vs 12% is huge.

DR usually says "well if I'm HALF wrong you'll still be okay".

Well lets look at the "half wrong" argument.

If you make $70k/yr and you invest 15% like DR suggests towards retirement for 30 years at 12% (like DR would have you believe) you would end up with $2.5 million.  Great news!!

If you make $70k/yr and you invest 15% like DR suggests towards retirement for 30 years at 8% you would end up with $1.19 million...or 47.6%.

If you make $70k/yr and you invest 15% like DR suggests towards retirement for 30 years in VFINX and get the 10 year return of 7.65% you'd end up with $1.12 million...or 44.8% of what DRs projections.

So DR is not half wrong, he's more than half wrong.  And this all assumes that you have 30 years to invest!  Lots of people calling in are in their 30s and 40s with debt and won't have 30 years to invest.  They need to invest way more than 15% if they are looking to replace a significant portion of their income.

[warfreak2]

The people who need his advice don't need the most rational, mathematically best answer, they need one that works for them.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the "mathematically optimal" solution of paying the highest interest rate first assumes you have a reliable enough income to continue paying the minimums on all of your loans until they are all gone. If you have an unreliable income, it may be optimal to kill off a smaller loan that has a lower interest rate but a high minimum payment, to increase your discretionary cashflow and reduce the risk of having to miss a payment.

Not that DR appears to make any mention of doing this sort of analysis, but y'know.

[George_PA]

It seems like this thread started talking about dave ramsey but also turned to religion bashing in general, does being mustachian mean you cannot believe in god? is this stated somewhere in the blog just to make the record clear?

[sol]

does being mustachian mean you cannot believe in god? is this stated somewhere in the blog just to make the record clear?

No, of course not.  Some of us just have a hard time not evangelizing.

[HoneyBadger]

does being mustachian mean you cannot believe in god? is this stated somewhere in the blog just to make the record clear?

No, of course not.  Some of us just have a hard time not evangelizing.

The problem I have with Dave Ramsey and other "prophets for profit" is the insinuation that if you disagree with them you are not a "Good Christian."  I may burn in Hell, but I'm sticking with Vanguard and taking a pass on Ramsey's ELPs.

[oldtoyota]

Hm. I don't know much about him. What little I have seen--his photos, etc--seem cheesy to me, but I guess it appeals to a lot of people. I avoid motivational Christian evangelical speakers/coaches like The Plague.

What I have noticed about him is that he has $55MM and supposedly helps people in debt. It sounds to me like he profits from people in debt. Something about that doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

[oldtoyota]

Interesting article, it may or may not be true, hard to say just on this article alone, and the only real source of information is former, mostly fired employees. 

Are you an apologist?

Yeah. The people who still work there sound too scared to say anything. If you have a LOT of former employees all saying the same thing…well, one has to wonder. People can be fired with or without cause, and being fired doesn't mean they lie. In one case, two people who were not even guilty were fired. What kind of employer is that?

[oldtoyota]

The liberal trash media is so in bed with the liberal politicians they will go to any length to destroy their enemies...in this case, as in most, conservatives and especially religious ones.
   The author, Matthew Paul Turner, is an over zealous, left wing nut who hides under the guise of religion. I think he is jealous of DR.

This is the second time this week I've seen a reference to the "liberal media." What is the liberal media of which you speak? Please name the names of the websites and newspapers to which you refer.

Doesn't Rupert Murdoch own just about everything? If so, that takes a whack at your "liberal media" proclamation.

The "liberal media" label is a brilliant (probably Fox News induced) idea that was promulgated by the right to put the left on the defensive. And it works. Whoever thought that up is smart because people have eaten it up like pretty little chocolate chip cookies.

[oldtoyota]

I read his book Entreleadership and you can tell from there that he's a bit like this. He admits he fires people who have affairs even when they don't affect their professional life at all. He admits to firing gossipers.

He's a sinner then, I guess. Doesn't the Bible preach forgiveness?

Mark 11:25, baby.

[Jennifer in Ottawa]

It seems like this thread started talking about dave ramsey but also turned to religion bashing in general, does being mustachian mean you cannot believe in god? is this stated somewhere in the blog just to make the record clear?

Is there any particular reason that religion should not be held up to criticism?

[Cheddar Stacker]

It seems like this thread started talking about dave ramsey but also turned to religion bashing in general, does being mustachian mean you cannot believe in god? is this stated somewhere in the blog just to make the record clear?

Is there any particular reason that religion should not be held up to criticism?

Jennifer in Ottawa - No. Just like anything else, question everything. I'm reminded of the website www.waitbutwhy.com

George_PA - No. However, being mustachian means you should evaluate each transaction in your life to determine the intrinsic value to determine the benefit you receive vs. the price you pay. This constant questioning leaks into other areas, so even non-financial "transactions" often come into question.

There are many religious people here. Just read a few posts on tithing. But, be prepared for a lot more criticism of religion.

[LatteLaura]

I've listened to Dave Ramsey for years and it did help play a part in motivating us to get out of debt.

It seems that lately his show is one big mean-spirited rant against those who disagree with him.   That is a big red-flag, especially when you combine it with someone holding a fundamentalist mindset.

Another red flag is that everything is his way or the highway.  Life isn't always so black and white.

[George_PA]

being mustachian means you should evaluate each transaction in your life to determine the intrinsic value to determine the benefit you receive vs. the price you pay. This constant questioning leaks into other areas, so even non-financial "transactions" often come into question.
There are many religious people here. Just read a few posts on tithing. But, be prepared for a lot more criticism of religion.

Ok thanks I will keep that in mind.

[Nords]

It seems that lately his show is one big mean-spirited rant against those who disagree with him.   That is a big red-flag, especially when you combine it with someone holding a fundamentalist mindset.

I'd love to see him and Suze Orman co-host a show.

Although they might need Dr. Phil, Iyanla Vanzant, a UN peacekeeping platoon, and even Oprah to mediate...

[iris lily]

This is the second time this week I've seen a reference to the "liberal media." What is the liberal media of which you speak? Please name the names of the websites and newspapers to which you refer.

To start, The St. Louis Post Dispatch. That editorial board has never seen a "progressive" idea they didn't like.

[EricL]

I don't know much about Dave Ramsey.  From what I'm reading here he sounds like a jerk.  But generally speaking every person has their bad side.  If you're a public figure it's going to be brought into high relief.  Also, if you're not pissing SOMEBODY off in the course of this life you're probably doing something wrong.

One thing I do like is the MMM forums.  They're a uniter, not a divider.  Whatever ideological, political, philosophical, and religious baggage people have they are linked through the common cause of frugality, freedom from debt, mindful consumption, and a desire for financial prosperity. 

[HoneyBadger]

It seems that lately his show is one big mean-spirited rant against those who disagree with him.   That is a big red-flag, especially when you combine it with someone holding a fundamentalist mindset.

I'd love to see him and Suze Orman co-host a show.

Although they might need Dr. Phil, Iyanla Vanzant, a UN peacekeeping platoon, and even Oprah to mediate...

Would they be in a cage? ;-)

[LatteLaura]

Would they be in a cage? ;-)

Yikes!  :)

[Jennifer in Ottawa]

I'd pay money to watch that.

[Nords]

It seems that lately his show is one big mean-spirited rant against those who disagree with him.   That is a big red-flag, especially when you combine it with someone holding a fundamentalist mindset.

I'd love to see him and Suze Orman co-host a show.

Although they might need Dr. Phil, Iyanla Vanzant, a UN peacekeeping platoon, and even Oprah to mediate...

Would they be in a cage? ;-)

Well, at least in protective headgear with mouthguards.

They should probably have their immunizations up to date.  And frankly, from what I've seen of Suze's smile, perhaps rabies vaccines would be a good idea too...

I'd not only pay for a ticket, but I'd cover the point spread on Iyanla.

[MichaelR]

Wow that DR interview with mf was harse. I'm sure DR is proud of the piece, but it makes him sound like an ass. I listen to DR and this one is definitely in dick mode.  He actually sounds like a financial advisor that is unwilling to show the customer the various calculations to see that the infest meant can actually be lower based on different equations, the advisor fees, etc.  Fire him ASAP.

+1
Sounds a complete tool who is all about being angry at criticism and nothing about addressing the issue.