Author Topic: Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Money Guru Dave Ramsey’s Social Media Witch Hunt  (Read 23430 times)

austin

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From The Daily Beast by Matther Paul Turner

I've been skeptical of this guy since I first listened to his radio broadcast. I understand his program is 101 stuff, but I once explained what an IRA, mutual funds, and index funds are to a former coworker who had spent money on his Financial Peace University - that doesn't seem right.

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When critics appeared online, employees say the evangelical financial whiz went ballistic, allegedly firing innocent employees and offering bounties for information.

Dave Ramsey makes millions telling you how to keep your financial house in order, but lately his employees claim he’s been having a bit of trouble with his own.
 
According to interviews with nearly two dozen current and former employees of his Nashville-based Lampo Group, Ramsey has engaged in what they describe as an increasingly paranoid campaign to identify and silence several critics—mostly former employees—who have appeared on Facebook and Twitter. Bizarre episodes allegedly involving online spying, gag orders, random firings, and offers of large cash bounties for information have created a climate of fear inside the Lampo headquarters, intensifying a discomfort many employees have felt the past several years with Ramsey’s management.

Ramsey is one of America’s best-known financial advice gurus, famous for his gospel of “financial peace,” “Biblically based, common sense” wisdom on debt, investing, and retirement. Exploding out of the evangelical Christian world and onto the national stage, he has sold millions of books, hosts a popular radio show, and runs an organization that boasts more than 400 employees. Eight million people listen to The Dave Ramsey Show, 400 publications run his “Dave Says” column, and more than 2 million families have participated in Ramsey’s Financial Peace University. According to Ramsey, his Lampo Group sells “hope,” and that business has given him an estimated net worth of $55 million.
 

Fans seem to love Ramsey’s good-ol’-boy charm, a no-nonsense approach to finances, family, and life. On the radio, his matter-of-fact answers to callers’ questions and his frankness about the economy, politics, Obamacare, and faith make him a favorite among conservatives. Perhaps his No. 1 leadership mantra is that every business should implement a “no-gossip policy.” While nobody likes gossip, Dave Ramsey hates it with biblical passion. (Gossip is strongly condemned in both the Old and New Testaments.) Ramsey says there’s only one way to share information: “Positives can go up anywhere, negatives go up.” On his EntreLeadership podcast, after calling gossip “one of the most evil spirits that Satan ever let loose on this planet,” Ramsey said, “once I will warn you and then I will fire you! I have a zero-tolerance-plus-one policy for gossip. I will teach you once and then I will fire your butt.”
 
But perhaps most telling is the kind of gossip that Ramsey says is the worst. “The gossip about the person who’s freakin’ paying you!” As the president of The Lampo Group, the only thing Dave Ramsey hates more than gossip is seemingly when the gossip is about Dave Ramsey.

“As a boss, Dave Ramsey was a bully,” said one former employee, who was a member of a secret Facebook group of about 100 former Lampo employees that Ramsey managed to infiltrate without their knowledge last year. “Most of us left Lampo years ago and yet he still haunts us, lurking over our shoulders like he’s the damn Godfather. And many of us are scared of him, unsure of how far he’d go to silence us.”

The secret group, Former Lampo Folks, was started in 2012 by K.C. Jones as a way to reconnect with former coworkers, but had grown into a forum for airing complaints about the work environment at Lampo. From basic managerial processes to the “no-gossip policy” to how they were treated upon leaving, Jones, who left Lampo after four years in 2011, said that “the group became a safe place for people to express themselves freely, which is something we didn’t get to do very often while working at Lampo.” 
 
Members of the Facebook group had no idea Ramsey knew what was being said until early spring, when a current Lampo employee informed them that one of their private conversations was the topic of discussion during a meeting at Lampo. Members of the group still don’t know how Ramsey got access, but concluded that one member must have given him their Facebook login information or made copies of discussions taking place in the group. In an email exchange with one of the group’s administrators, Robert Faulkner, Ramsey claimed that he had accessed the supposedly-closed circle.
 
Angry that Ramsey and his team had gained entry to the private group, several of the group’s members took to anonymous Twitter handles like @FormerCultist, @DaveRamses, and @DaveRamsesII to protest.

Late last year, @DaveRamses tweeted: “Wow. I literally have no idea why all his former employees think he’s the devil incarnate.” In March, @FormerCultist tweeted: “Dave claims to be a Christian, and an ethical leader. And teaches others to do so. His actions are neither Biblical or Ethical.”

The public criticism enraged Ramsey, who, according to one current employee, went on a “warpath” to expose the Twitter critics. During an all-staff meeting on May 7 that was described by several current employees, Ramsey offered thousands of dollars in bounties in exchange for the identities of the tweeters. (Employees’ accounts differed on the dollar figure, but ranged from $5,000 to $20,000). Ramsey was especially intent on identifying the tweeter behind @LampoLeadership, a parody account that had begun tweeting about the inner workings of Lampo, suggesting it was run by someone inside the company. (In an interview with The Daily Beast, the person who operates @LampoLeadership said they had no connection to the other parody tweeters who were members of the Facebook group.)
 
On May 8, Ramsey fired two Lampo employees, Chris Blaylock and Josh Harman, on the mistaken suspicion that they were operating @LampoLeadership or leaking inside information to the person behind it. Though Blaylock declined a request for an interview and Harman did not respond to emails, a Lampo employee confirmed that despite management eventually learning that Blaylock and Harman had no connections to the Twitter account, they were still fired based on “negative chatter” being discovered in the distant history of their office instant messaging. Another Lampo employee said, “You’ll never talk to them about this. Ramsey will make them sign non-disclosure agreements, the kind without expiration dates.”

On May 11, seemingly certain he knew who was running the Twitter accounts, Ramsey again lashed out at his critics on Twitter, naming K.C. Jones, Dino Evangelista, and Robert Faulkner as active members of the Facebook group.

The battle between Ramsey and the former Lamponians came to a head on May 12, during another staff meeting. According to three current employees, Ramsey chose a handful of the Facebook group’s members, former employees and plastered their pictures, their family members’ pictures, and screenshots of their private conversations on a large screen for all of his 400-plus employees to see. Amid his rant, Ramsey even mentioned that he had contacted the local police department and the FBI.
 
Later that day, Ramsey organized a meeting with the operators of several of the parody Twitter accounts, the same people he’d just shamed in front of his staff. Without asking if they wanted to meet, he called a couple of their pastors, reserved a private room at the restaurant Boscos in Franklin, Tennessee, and scheduled a meeting time. Then, Ramsey sent the group an email, later provided to The Daily Beast. “The Bible clearly says that when we have a problem with our brother we are to go to them and try to resolve the situation,” he wrote, “I have the courage and I will take the time to sit with you in person and try to find resolution. My hope is you have the courage as well.”

Treating the confrontation with his critics as an attempt at spiritual reconciliation was consistent with what numerous employees described as the typical Ramsey approach, one familiar among evangelical institutions who blur the boundaries between church and business. Leaders like Ramsey often refuse to see disagreement as anything but spiritual rebellion. When Ramsey learned I was reporting this story, he invited me to meet him and a pastor at Lampo. “I hope you have the courage to sit with me as a man,” he wrote in an email. Later, Ramsey and his spokesperson did not respond to a request for comment on specific allegations made by current and former employees.

Robert Faulkner, who worked at Lampo for three years before becoming a member of the Facebook group and the tweeter behind @FormerCultist, met with Ramsey over the phone. During their hour-long conversation, the two came to a mutual understanding. As he wrote in a follow-up email exchange with Faulkner, Ramsey agreed “to leave the Facebook group alone if the members will leave Lampo and me alone. …We are happy to go on our way and not bother the Facebook group at all… we have no desire to interact with people who hate us, so don’t come to Lampo properties or Lampo events.”

“We had left you alone until the hate boiled over onto Twitter, LinkedIn, and threats of bringing Lampo and Dave down arose,” Ramsey wrote to Faulkner. “That hate also included some of our own current team trying to bring harm from the inside. At that point we were required to react.”

In exchange for agreeing with Faulkner to stop personally accessing the group, Ramsey got almost everything he wanted: Most of the public Twitter accounts were deleted or their content erased, and all of the negative chatter about how he runs things at Lampo has stopped. Craig Daliessio, a non-employee who attended a meeting with Ramsey and his wife, Sharon, wrote a follow-up blog post in which he described starting the @DaveRamses account because he was annoyed at evangelical friends spouting Ramsey-isms about his difficult employment situation, and blamed himself for taking it out on Ramsey.
 
Of the crop of parody Twitter accounts, only @LampoLeadership survived the truce between Ramsey and the Facebook group, and it continued taunting Ramsey with inside knowledge of his organization. “My #1 leadership technique is zero tolerance policy for criticism,” it tweeted in the voice of Ramsey. “Which is one thing I hate about America (besides Obama and income tax).”
 
But Faulkner soon came to believe that Ramsey was still interested in indirectly keeping tabs on the Facebook group, and confronted Ramsey by email over reports from inside Lampo that discussions from the Facebook group were still being reported and discussed in meetings. “There are a LOT of people who do still like me and Lampo and will likely continue to tell me what is said in the group,” Ramsey responded.


The seeming paranoia of Ramsey’s outburst in the May 12 staff meeting startled some Lampo employees, but many said they had come to expect explosive behavior from the boss. “This is the guy who once pulled a loaded pistol out of a gift bag to teach us a lesson about gossip,” said one former employee. “It was bizarre, even for Ramsey.” (Ramsey has tweeted photos of his gun collection, which includes semi-automatic rifles.)
 
That event, which allegedly occurred in 2011, is one of Lampo’s worst-kept secrets, a moment that was a turning point for many. “That was the day I began planning my exit,” one said. For another, Ramsey’s gun illustration served as a reminder that the man she worked for “instills fear and dominance and control over every aspect of life.”

The portrait of the climate inside Lampo contrasts sharply with Ramsey’s reputation in the evangelical Christian world, where he has been praised for “practicing what he preaches,” and even beyond, where the Nashville Business Journal lauded Lampo as one of the city’s best places to work. Current and former employees say that, though they believe in the Lampo mission and felt like Ramsey’s team was a “family,” their daily experience of working for him and his leadership staff was dominated by fear.
 
“There are plenty of former employees recovering from the abuse there,” said one ex-employee, “similar to my fundamentalist upbringing.” A current Lampo employee who hopes to leave soon, added, “This place is awesome as long as you never complain and never tell anybody you’re thinking about leaving.”

“When you leave Lampo, you become an ‘outcast’ regardless of the reasons,” another former employee said. She left because she was moving away from Nashville. Two days after giving her 30 days notice, she says she was called into her boss’s office and told that the following day would be her last at Lampo. Even though she believed she was departing on good terms, she said, “I was treated as if I had done something terrible.” Nobody on the leadership team acknowledged her on her last day, she claims, not even her direct superiors. And despite a handful of coworkers offering cards and hugs, “only a few of the people I was friends with [at Lampo] still speak to me.”
 
The total erasure of former employees is so familiar it even has a nickname. “It’s called the Lampo Rapture—[because] no one knows what happened to you and it is forbidden to talk about it,” said the former employee who left because she was moving. Another former Lampo employee who got “raptured” last year said, “It happened all the time. You’d suddenly think, ‘Wait! Where’s so-and-so?’ And you’d find out that he or she left two months before. And nobody knew why. And even if they did know, they would never tell anybody else.”

By all accounts, Ramsey is still on a mission to find out who the “hater” is running the @LampoLeadership feed is. He is so convinced that @LampoLeadership is a mole from within his own company, Robert Faulkner claims that Ramsey somehow talked him into giving the tweeter a message on his behalf: “[Dave]’s panties are in a wad because [he] thinks you’re an employee [at Lampo],” Faulkner wrote in a private Twitter message on May 22. “He said if you come forward. And quit. There will be no charges filed…[Dave] might be crazy…. but he’s got connections… And lots of money… [because] paranoia seems to come with cash… Anywho… message delivered.”

“The next time you see Dave,” @LampoLeadership wrote back, “explain parody to him.”

CU Tiger

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Well, that is some awesome crazy pants behavior. Sounds like a scary place to work...like having Big Brother watching over you.

Nords

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It's always nice to see karma catching up with those who so richly deserve earned it...

... and of course it's not paranoia when everyone is actually making fun of you and seeking vengeance.

Here's an article from nearly two years ago-- "The Dave Ramsey Endorsed Local Provider (ELP) Shaft Detector":
http://retireearlyhomepage.com/daveramsey.html

Elyse

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My two bits on DR...

His show is great to get personal finance in front of people's faces.  It is great that a talk show about money calls people out on bullshit purchases and it is still popular.  If you are calling about debt, he will get you going on the right road.  He might take some weird detours getting there, but he gets you there.

Other than that... his investments are well known to be shitty.  The important thing to note about his classes is that FPU is not about investing.  It is about getting out of debt.  He has a different class about growing wealth, which I've heard is not very good.  Keep a good filing system and you can get the same thing for $5 between Goodwill and the library.   

Should people pay for his classes?  No, practically all the material is in his show or found at the library.  What does the class provide?  A support group.  Which you can find on your own.  A lot of times, churches or businesses will sponsor people to take the classes.  I'm not saying it is right.  I'm just saying it happens.

I think his charisma and energy is something people need to hear on the radio.  I think his show does a lot of people a lot of good.  If he was just selling books and offered the class for free, I would feel really good about it.  But he doesn't.  So I've got mixed feelings on the guy. 

If nothing else, his show was the first thing that got me to pay attention to a budget.  That budget eventually led me here.  So he's got that going for him in my book.

Edit:

If this is true, though, he is insane.  He does seem like a control freak kind of guy.
How does it get #1 best place to work if this is true?  They can't read your responses to the survey.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 02:44:14 PM by Elyse »

trailrated

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It's always nice to see karma catching up with those who so richly deserve earned it...

... and of course it's not paranoia when everyone is actually making fun of you and seeking vengeance.

Here's an article from nearly two years ago-- "The Dave Ramsey Endorsed Local Provider (ELP) Shaft Detector":
http://retireearlyhomepage.com/daveramsey.html

Thanks for the link, that is CRAZZZZZY to see how much of a difference that makes.

greenmimama

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I have followed him for many years, folioing his stay out of debt principles have really helped us out. I have recently been focusing on more saving and retiring early, so not much DR involved in that, I would still recommend his books to pretty much everyone, because it is really sad how little most people know.

But this article is scary, I hate to see that about him, I am not really doubting it's true, although I have to doubt everything I read. I hope he pulls it together and doesn't go down in flames, he has helped a LOT of people out.

The thing I love about his radio show is, he is very compassionate and loves to help people, and like a PP said, very willing to also call bullshit.

Disturbing news for sure.

Fishingmn

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Somehow it feels like this thread is just an effort to badmouth DR rather than to discuss antimustachian matters.

Totally disagree.

DR is someone who has been talked about in a positive light on many MMM forum threads. Posting this article was news to me and would give me pause to do anything that would promote him in the future. I applaud the OP for posting this and opening my eyes to DR's true nature.

Erica/NWEdible

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Fascinating stuff. I like my financial advice with a lot of f-bombs and facepunches, and have been allergic to debt for a long time, so I've never been the target audience for the DR empire. This strikes me as The Streisand Effect at work: the more DR tries to censor public criticism, the bigger deal it will become. If he had left the private FB group well enough alone, we wouldn't be talking about this TDB article now, eh?

OP Austin, would you mind truncating the full-repost of The Daily Beast article down to a few "teaser" paragraphs so as to not step on copyright infringement toes? TDB has to eat, too.

Nords

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Somehow it feels like this thread is just an effort to badmouth DR rather than to discuss antimustachian matters.
I don't think it takes much effort-- he's worked hard to become a target.

He's done so much good work for so many people on getting out of debt.  It's frustrating to see him turn into a coercive and vindictive "leader" who seems intent on ignoring his math mistakes on investment returns and the conflicts of interest with his "endorsed providers".  He's practically begging his employees to turn into whistleblowers and SEC informers.  I sure hope he's squeaky-clean on his tax returns, too.

Maybe he thinks that his situation will turn out differently from other celebrity meltdowns...

Mutton Chop

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DR strikes me as the guy who doesn't mind a good fight, and sometimes even if you win a fight, you still lose.

Don't roll with the pigs if you don't want to get dirty :)

destron

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Somehow it feels like this thread is just an effort to badmouth DR rather than to discuss antimustachian matters.

This is the "Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy" forum, after all.

brewer12345

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Re: Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Money Guru Witch Hunt
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2014, 01:35:57 PM »
Somehow it feels like this thread is just an effort to badmouth DR rather than to discuss antimustachian matters.

Nothing wrong with calling out a supposed paragon of virtue who is actually batshit crazy.

Jags4186

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My big problem with Dave Ramsey is that his investing advice is such BS that I don't trust anything he says.  That plus not contributing to get your 401k match while paying down debt screams stupid to me.  Advocating not having a credit score so you can only go and get insurance/mortgages from companies he endorses also screams foul to me (Zander Insurance!! Churchill Mortgage!!)

And for someone who preaches beans and rice, rice and beans he really wants you to go get yourself some discount blinds for your windows.

Milspecstache

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I did a book of his with my fiance prior to getting married several years ago.  Was pretty helpful as it talked about budgets and minimizing debt.

trailrated

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I did a book of his with my fiance prior to getting married several years ago.  Was pretty helpful as it talked about budgets and minimizing debt.

I think it is important to note that every person is not inherently altruistic or "batshit crazy" DR gives some very good advice and does good things for many people. One could argue he is giving abysmal investing advice but at the same time anyone following his advice and coming out of crazy debt is in a better place than they were when they started.

I can say without a doubt after reading that article there is no way I would want to work there. But I will not bash him to someone that is using his services as a positive influence to get out of debt and become a better person themselves.

MgoSam

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I did a book of his with my fiance prior to getting married several years ago.  Was pretty helpful as it talked about budgets and minimizing debt.

I think it is important to note that every person is not inherently altruistic or "batshit crazy" DR gives some very good advice and does good things for many people. One could argue he is giving abysmal investing advice but at the same time anyone following his advice and coming out of crazy debt is in a better place than they were when they started.

I can say without a doubt after reading that article there is no way I would want to work there. But I will not bash him to someone that is using his services as a positive influence to get out of debt and become a better person themselves.

I haven't used DR but from friends that have listened to his advice he has been very helpful in reducing their debt. I don't know how much of it is his unique advice or the fact that it was a framework to acknowledge all debt and come up with a strategy, but either way I am all for people reducing their debt. I don't know if his advice has been useful for reducing expenses but I"ll talk to them about that.

Milspecstache

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For me and my wife the book was a great discussion point that we needed to have before marriage.  I think we really covered the financial area well before marriage (a lot of it was initiated by reading the book together).  It helped reveal many of our pre-conceived ideas about finances, debt, budget, etc.

If anything I think we may have needed to read some add'l books together to cover other areas as well...  like in-laws, retirement, how to argue...

viper155

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Did anyone here look at the source of this article? The Daily Beast is an ultra liberal, anti religion rag run by Tina Brown. This is nothing more than a hit piece on a conservative Christian. DR is on the air for 3 hours a day, 5 days a week. Of course he is going to say some "off" things! I'd put the integrity of DR up against that of Tina Brown any day of the week. The 1st Amendment was put in place for the press to be a watchdog over our intrusive gov't. The liberal trash media is so in bed with the liberal politicians they will go to any length to destroy their enemies...in this case, as in most, conservatives and especially religious ones.
   The author, Matthew Paul Turner, is an over zealous, left wing nut who hides under the guise of religion. I think he is jealous of DR.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 09:28:30 PM by viper155 »

MooseOutFront

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Sure it was a hit piece, but Dave's inability to handle criticism and social media in general is obvious to anyone that listens to his show. He really needs less internet in his life.

Winston

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The Daily Beast is an ultra liberal, anti religion rag run by Tina Brown.

Yes, and? :)

"ultra liberal" = freed from the dogma of mainstream thought

"anti-religion" = immediately more trustworthy since it doesn't operate under a mythological pretext
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 07:42:59 AM by Winston »

Luck12

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Did anyone here look at the source of this article? The Daily Beast is an ultra liberal, anti religion rag run by Tina Brown. This is nothing more than a hit piece on a conservative Christian. DR is on the air for 3 hours a day, 5 days a week. Of course he is going to say some "off" things! I'd put the integrity of DR up against that of Tina Brown any day of the week. The 1st Amendment was put in place for the press to be a watchdog over our intrusive gov't. The liberal trash media is so in bed with the liberal politicians they will go to any length to destroy their enemies...in this case, as in most, conservatives and especially religious ones.
   The author, Matthew Paul Turner, is an over zealous, left wing nut who hides under the guise of religion. I think he is jealous of DR.

I don't know anything about this Tina Brown, but does she pretend to be all virtuous, all knowing like DR does?  DR's an asshole and wrong on so many things.  Frankly, we need more journalism of this sort to expose hypocrisy/bad behavior of people like DR who have the masses fooled.    You call it liberal trash media, I call it truth telling. 

trailrated

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Sure it was a hit piece, but Dave's inability to handle criticism and social media in general is obvious to anyone that listens to his show. He really needs less internet in his life.

+1 perfectly said

viper155

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DR is no choir boy..thats for sure but he has helped many more people than Tina Brown. This reminds me of when Al Sharpton called George Steinbrenner a racist when Steinbrenner has helped elevate hundreds and hundreds of black men into millionaire status and Al Sharpton has purposely held back black people for decades. And for his own gain! You guys act as if DR has no right to run his company as he sees fit. Well, guess what, he does. don't like it? Change the channel. Simple
DR is more, a lot more, good than bad.

brewer12345

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Re: Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Money Guru Dave RamseWitch Hunt
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2014, 04:28:28 PM »
DR is no choir boy..thats for sure but he has helped many more people than Tina Brown. This reminds me of when Al Sharpton called George Steinbrenner a racist when Steinbrenner has helped elevate hundreds and hundreds of black men into millionaire status and Al Sharpton has purposely held back black people for decades. And for his own gain! You guys act as if DR has no right to run his company as he sees fit. Well, guess what, he does. don't like it? Change the channel. Simple
DR is more, a lot more, good than bad.

That tinfoil hat really suits you.

paddedhat

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Re: Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Money Guru Dave RamseWitch Hunt
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2014, 07:16:54 PM »

That tinfoil hat really suits you.

Seriously,  An article awash in reports of employees who have been harassed, abused, threatened, and fired to satisfy the monsterous ego of an out of control control freak.  However it's all a wash since DR is on the "right side of Jesus" and the author is a liberal.   

Sorry there viper, but once you start babbling about the liberal media and conspiracies, you are just wasting bandwidth here. You might of been better served to spend a bit more time lurking, and less time babbling. In doing so, it would of been pretty obvious that the majority of the folks here are intelligent, articulate, and have a lot more going for themselves than most of those that spew your brand of venom. I can't speak for anyone else here, but please feel free to show yourself the door. Jesus, and Bill O'Reilly need you somewhere else.  Bless your little heart.

diesel15

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Re: Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Money Guru Dave RamseWitch Hunt
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2014, 08:06:40 PM »

That tinfoil hat really suits you.

Seriously,  An article awash in reports of employees who have been harassed, abused, threatened, and fired to satisfy the monsterous ego of an out of control control freak.  However it's all a wash since DR is on the "right side of Jesus" and the author is a liberal.   

Sorry there viper, but once you start babbling about the liberal media and conspiracies, you are just wasting bandwidth here. You might of been better served to spend a bit more time lurking, and less time babbling. In doing so, it would of been pretty obvious that the majority of the folks here are intelligent, articulate, and have a lot more going for themselves than most of those that spew your brand of venom. I can't speak for anyone else here, but please feel free to show yourself the door. Jesus, and Bill O'Reilly need you somewhere else.  Bless your little heart.

At least this comment is not awash in sarcasm and condescension....in other news, this is speculative information at best.  Whether you believe these reports or not is pretty much irrelevant unless your are one of said disgruntled ex-employees.  As far as Dave Ramsey is concerned, his advice on debt avoidance is solid for most people.  His investment advice is much more questionable.  Enough said.  His religious views, though I don't share them, really don't come into play as far as I'm concerned.  If you worked for me and I found out that you were talking shit about me I would fire your ass too.  Pretty simple.  If you're so sloppy in cheating on your spouse that your fucking boss finds out I would also say you deserve whatever you get.

Daley

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Did anyone here look at the source of this article? The Daily Beast is an ultra liberal, anti religion rag run by Tina Brown. This is nothing more than a hit piece on a conservative Christian. DR is on the air for 3 hours a day, 5 days a week. Of course he is going to say some "off" things! I'd put the integrity of DR up against that of Tina Brown any day of the week. The 1st Amendment was put in place for the press to be a watchdog over our intrusive gov't. The liberal trash media is so in bed with the liberal politicians they will go to any length to destroy their enemies...in this case, as in most, conservatives and especially religious ones.
   The author, Matthew Paul Turner, is an over zealous, left wing nut who hides under the guise of religion. I think he is jealous of DR.

Truly written like someone who's not actually familiar with MPT's work or his professed faith. As always, it's encouraging to see a Christian leading with anger, venom, and blind judgment. Your statement has very little to do with our common faith and everything to do with diversionary political vitriol and tribalism.

Frequently, most Christians who get their noses bent out of shape by Mr. Turner are the very sorts of people who pledge an allegiance and subscribe to the philosophies of the unapologetic hypocrites within the faith he draws critical attention to. If you genuinely believe that any sort of man-made political ideology can accurately represent and defend the values that Yeshua taught, let alone think that the Bible-thumping, 700 Club-watching, Republican-voting, Evangelical Conservative Christian Coalition types truly embodies and defends those values (or even has an exclusive lock on them), you may be in for a surprise.

The issue being brought up with Ramsey and his public actions is that he is not embodying and taking to heart the greater message of the very faith he professes within his own organization. HaShem is not some angry and unforgiving tyrant, nor is Yeshua, and as such neither should we act as such or even appear to for the benefit of outsiders. Where is there room for these actions within the embodiment and understanding of, "'Love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Here's the thing with non-believers, they can smell hypocrisy from a mile away, and it does no good to defend it. Ramsey's actions have spoken louder than his words, and they don't quite tally. There might be a valuable object lesson in this mess for all of us in the faith to take to heart.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 12:28:05 AM by I.P. Daley »

Dr.Vibrissae

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I.P Daley, you made me smile today.  Thank you.

T-Rex

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This is pretty funny. I am always shocked at the way leaders try to remedy low morale in ways that would never occur to me. Ramsey's political or religious views have nothing to do with his toxic leadership and misguided efforts at resolving issues at his company.


ace1224

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DR's debt snowball literally changed my life, but i've always thought he was a total control freakazoid.  pretty good deal he has going though, pay me 100 bucks and i'll tell you something you pretty much already know.
worked for me though, so what can i say....lol

Cheddar Stacker

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Re: Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Money Guru Dave RamseWitch Hunt
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2014, 08:35:58 AM »

At least this comment is not awash in sarcasm and condescension....in other news, this is speculative information at best.  Whether you believe these reports or not is pretty much irrelevant unless your are one of said disgruntled ex-employees.  As far as Dave Ramsey is concerned, his advice on debt avoidance is solid for most people.  His investment advice is much more questionable.  Enough said.  His religious views, though I don't share them, really don't come into play as far as I'm concerned.  If you worked for me and I found out that you were talking shit about me I would fire your ass too.  Pretty simple.  If you're so sloppy in cheating on your spouse that your fucking boss finds out I would also say you deserve whatever you get.

Emphasis mine.

IF all these stories are true (I'm not surprised hearing any of this and I think they are true) I agree with the bolded sentiment above, but that's not what I have a problem with.

When you threaten your employees you are a bully. When you threaten them while holding a pistol you are a borderline criminal.

If this part of the article is true, I've lost the last bit of respect I had for DR and feel sorry for everyone involved in this situation, mostly DR. He needs some therapy.

DeepEllumStache

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Being fantastic at what you do does automatically make you a good boss.  Every company has the people who are fantastic at producing results but also fantastic at burning out employees.  Considering all the success stories, DR is extremely good at motivating and showing people how to get out of debt.  He is welcome to run his company anyway he chooses but that also means that no everyone would enjoy that type of work environment.

Mississippi Mudstache

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I.P Daley, you made me smile today.  Thank you.

Me too. I tend not to respond to comments like viper's, because I am generally not as eloquent in these situations. I'm glad I.P. was was here to say what needed to be said.

libertarian4321

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So Dave Ramsey gets pissed off when employees and former employees bad mouth him?

SHOCKING!  Who woulda thunk it?

I'm sure that all of the employers we work for just LOVE IT when we trash them in public, right? 

Think about it, folks.  If you went out and publicly trashed the company you worked for, do you really think the company would not retaliate?

Why would Dave Ramsey be any different?

Look, I have issues with some of Ramsey's advice.  His jihad against any credit card usage is just ridiculous.  His investment advice is not great.  As an libertarian and an atheist, I can really do without the social conservatism the sprinkling of Jesus references throughout the show (though, to be fair, he's relatively judicious with the Jesus references, doesn't continuously pound you over the head with it, like some do).

However, as a whole, his advice can be very helpful to those who are drowning in debt, and he is successful in moving people along the right path where others have failed.  I personally know of 3 couples who were drowning financially, that I preached at for YEARS, and they never listened to my advice, but when they went to a "Financial Peace" session (arranged by their church, of course), they suddenly saw the light. 

Years of cold, hard logic (my usual way of working) did not phase them.  An hour with Ramsey, and they were talking about stopping frivolous purchases and "living on rice and beans."  All three couples got their stuff together- they ain't millionaires, but at least they have their heads above water.  His methods work, folks, even if they are far from the ideal ideal.

My guess is that the liberal "Daily Beast" people are upset about the fact that he has a huge audience, and  is socially and fiscally conservative, so they decided to do a "hit piece" to try and trash him.


Big Guy Money

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I always thought he was a little fishy.  Charging well over $100 from people that obviously can't afford it to take a class full of extremely basic concepts?  Constantly pushing his ELPs?  Advertising a 12% return and questionable retirement withdrawal rates?

That being said, I continually listened to him until the interview below.  This is ridiculous behavior by Ramsey, and reminds me of the article posted above.

http://www.daveramsey.com/blog/dave-debates-the-motley-fool?

lazysundays

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Wow that DR interview with mf was harse. I'm sure DR is proud of the piece, but it makes him sound like an ass. I listen to DR and this one is definitely in dick mode.  He actually sounds like a financial advisor that is unwilling to show the customer the various calculations to see that the infest meant can actually be lower based on different equations, the advisor fees, etc.  Fire him ASAP.

iris lily

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Re: Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Money Guru Dave RamseWitch Hunt
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2014, 09:10:53 PM »
...  His religious views, though I don't share them, really don't come into play as far as I'm concerned.  If you worked for me and I found out that you were talking shit about me I would fire your ass too.  Pretty simple.  If you're so sloppy in cheating on your spouse that your fucking boss finds out I would also say you deserve whatever you get.

This made me laugh, and I agree. I don't need Dave Ramsey, never have. But a lot of people DO seem to need him.

iris lily

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Also, the bit about Ramsey charging $100--anyone savvy about human nature knows that when they pay something, when they've got skin in the game, you've got them hooked and they are more invested in the program.

lazysundays

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Also, I went looking at his article under investing. In "the 12% reality," dr does address the well read investor and tells them they can assume their return is 8% or 10% if that makes you more comfortable.  But he also goes one sided and says that 10 year dips (doesn't say how badly it can dip) can be followed by peaks of up to 18%. He's oversimplifying to sell.

Pss sometimes I find myself yelling atthe podcast to recommend ynab or tell the caller to read a random walk!  But he would lose $ that way.  As a businessman promoting his stuff, he can't recommend the competition.

Westoftown

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I listen occasionally.  If you are a totally clueless with money I guess its a good place to start.  He has a good business model with selling most of his classes working through Church groups and getting their support.  If you have some self control, many of his teachings are backwards.  For example, why pay cash when you can get all kinds of rewards points on a credit card - paying in full each month? 

Suze Orman is more interesting, but she'll have you working until 70 and convinced you need 3 or 4 million dollars in order to retire.

Big Guy Money

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2 things:

1) The difference between 8-12% is only 2-4% (his pitch), but anybody who is educated on money and has played around with compound interest realizes what a huge difference it makes.  I run everything using 7%.

2) You're right about having skin in the game.  My problem is he does everything under the "I'm just trying to help" schtick under the 'trust' of church and religion.  If he's just trying to help, why not direct people to free resources or use his name to set up a blog and make money off AdSense?

(I know I'm preaching to the choir here, no church pun intended)

Gerard

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I'm not sure how much I buy the "skin in the game" argument. It seems to be the justification you always hear from scammers. "Gee, I'd like to give you this life-changing and easily-available information for free, but you just wouldn't appreciate it!"

MMM hasn't charged me anything yet, and he seems to have about half a million people onside...

MicroRN

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I'm not a huge fan of Ramsey, but I've never been the heavily-in-debt type, and as an atheist I get pretty eye-rolly over his religious statements.  I know more than one couple that Ramsey has turned around though, so I wouldn't write him off completely.  Some people just need the basics, and need the nice little set of baby steps and the debt snowball.  Several couples I know took the program when it was free for military members. 

1967mama

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I enjoy listening to his show on my computer when I'm puttering away in the kitchen. I find the "We're Debt Free!!!" screams particularly motivating, and like hearing how ordinary people went from spenders to savers. 

Middlesbrough

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My sister and brother-in-law listen to his podcast in the car. We carpooled back to the parents together one weekend. He was talking about debt and paying off the smallest about first no matter the interest rate. I couldn't believe it! It mathematically makes no sense to me. I dont care what kind of emotional support you need.

sol

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"anti-religion" = immediately more trustworthy since it doesn't operate under a mythological pretext

Winston is my favorite poster of the day, because I had this exact same thought. 

I respect your right to purse spiritual enlightenment in whatever way you find fitting.  With that said, I'm not about to take financial advice from someone who literally believes in magic. 

Think of the semi-naked guy with dreadlocks and the sandwich board sign that says "The End Is Near" on it.  Maybe he has a really solid message that I totally need to hear, but since he's clearly a crazy person he's probably not getting through to me.

Emilyngh

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"anti-religion" = immediately more trustworthy since it doesn't operate under a mythological pretext

Winston is my favorite poster of the day, because I had this exact same thought. 

I respect your right to purse spiritual enlightenment in whatever way you find fitting.  With that said, I'm not about to take financial advice from someone who literally believes in magic. 

Think of the semi-naked guy with dreadlocks and the sandwich board sign that says "The End Is Near" on it.  Maybe he has a really solid message that I totally need to hear, but since he's clearly a crazy person he's probably not getting through to me.

And *this* type of openness/mindset is why this forum has sucked me in.   

sol

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And *this* type of openness/mindset is why this forum has sucked me in.   

And I was sucked in by the sarcasm.

There are lots of helpful and intelligent people here who genuinely believe in mysticism, and I try not to begrudge them their choices because for the most part, I like everyone.  The sarcastic maybe notwithstanding.

We generally avoid religion on this forum because it seems nobody is capable of having a rational discussion about it.  That's fine.  But when someone else pipes up with my exact thoughts on a topic, I like to give them a little encouragement.  To you, Winston, I applaud your contribution.  You are not alone.

I don't know jack about Dave Ramsey, but he sounds like kind of a dick.  Being a dick isn't against the law.  He also sounds like a crazy person who believes in Santa, also not against the law.  But thousands of US corporations are owned or run by crazy dickheads, sometimes quite profitably.  If you don't like it, don't patronize his business and for god's sake, don't work there.

George_PA

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Interesting article, it may or may not be true, hard to say just on this article alone, and the only real source of information is former, mostly fired employees. 

But honestly how is this any different than many workplaces?  Pretty much at most places you work if you bad mouth the boss behind their back and get caught, you are gonna get canned, it is that simple. 

They are probably going after the former employees who had that facebook page and the twitter messages more for business reasons.  For example, they don't want potential new customers typing dave ramsey into google and having that bad stuff come up on the 1st page of search results.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 10:25:56 PM by George_PA »

Cheddar Stacker

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George_PA, Did you miss the part where he whipped out a pistol during a staff meeting? That doesn't happen at my work. You?

"anti-religion" = immediately more trustworthy since it doesn't operate under a mythological pretext

Winston is my favorite poster of the day, because I had this exact same thought. 

I respect your right to purse spiritual enlightenment in whatever way you find fitting.  With that said, I'm not about to take financial advice from someone who literally believes in magic.

+1. I grew up catholic with very faithful parents. Their gem financial advice was "the lord will provide". Solid.

I'm pretty sure eventually cheddar will provide since the lord didn't really come through in the clutch.