Author Topic: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase  (Read 40025 times)

frugalecon

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2014, 02:41:39 PM »
Visiting sister again...new drama is that she  needs $1200 to cover a legal bill that resulted from failing to file a legal document for her business, creating difficulty getting reimbursement. But those car payments don't leave much cash for keeping the business going.

Erica/NWEdible

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2014, 04:18:59 PM »
Also there is a fine art to acknowledging new stupid purchases without congratulating someone, try to make it a game.  "Wow that is a really great looking new car, must be fun to drive.  Gee I could never buy one myself I'm just to addicted to not having a car payment."

Yes! Remember the truth of Oscar Wilde: "A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally."

Joggernot

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2014, 05:18:25 PM »
As far as my sister is concerned, it is odd to me that someone expects congratulations over buying a car. As a public transit rider and pedestrian, cars just don't loom very large in my life.
Next time you get new shoes or get on a new bus/train, text her of your new "purchase" and expect to get a response of utter glee...:)

frugalecon

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2014, 09:35:00 AM »
Last night at a family dinner the conversation turned to rewards card churning, and I admitted to getting cards for the rewards and then canceling them before the annual fee hit. Someone said she heard that hurt your credit score, and I said I didn't care too much since I didn't anticipate needing credit. My sister said "Well, you will surely need a car loan sometime!" I just kept my mouth shut, though I was tempted to say I could just pay cash.

AlanStache

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2014, 10:20:09 AM »
Quote
My sister said "Well, you will surely need a car loan sometime!" I just kept my mouth shut, though I was tempted to say I could just pay cash.

Small lie could be saying that you intend to buy something on the cheap side with a good down payment so 4% vs 5% does not make much difference.  Sort of true sort of not, sort of understandable to non-mmm folk.  Not that you need to say anything I guess.

deborah

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2014, 03:09:26 PM »
They know because the purpose of my visit is to do my parents' taxes and take care of periodic financial stuff. (I have a financial POA for my parents.) My parents know my views. I think since my sister just bought a new BMW (financed, naturally), my parents will not be that sympathetic. Well, Mom anyway. Dad has dementia and is confused a lot.
In some ways I have a similar situation - a brother who has nothing because he has spent rather than saved, who still gets subsidised by my elderly parents despite having a reasonable job and life (and he is not young). I don't know how he is going to cope when they die and he needs to retire. I don't want any of my parents' money, so it doesn't matter to me what they give him. However, they are always worried that they can afford things, so this constant drain on them is making them more worried. I don't like that.

Christof

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2014, 03:34:33 PM »
Someone said she heard that hurt your credit score

So many rumours about credit scores, yet most peple don't even bother to check theirs. I wouldn't be surprised if your score is actually a lot higher than hers.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 03:36:30 PM by Christof »

Ashyukun

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2014, 02:48:05 PM »
They know because the purpose of my visit is to do my parents' taxes and take care of periodic financial stuff. (I have a financial POA for my parents.) My parents know my views. I think since my sister just bought a new BMW (financed, naturally), my parents will not be that sympathetic. Well, Mom anyway. Dad has dementia and is confused a lot.
In some ways I have a similar situation - a brother who has nothing because he has spent rather than saved, who still gets subsidised by my elderly parents despite having a reasonable job and life (and he is not young). I don't know how he is going to cope when they die and he needs to retire. I don't want any of my parents' money, so it doesn't matter to me what they give him. However, they are always worried that they can afford things, so this constant drain on them is making them more worried. I don't like that.

I have an uncle like that... made a number of bad & stupid choices and was generally lazy and found ways to avoid working much. He was largely dependant on my grandparents for most of his life until recently when he got put on full disability by the VA and has been turning his life around (at past retirement age, but oh well..). The amusing part of it to me though is how my grandparents- especially my late grandfather who was very good with money- handled it. My grandfather kept track of EVERYTHING that they gave to my uncle outside of normal gifts and their will is written such that it biases the inheritance between he and my mother (their only children) based on this amount- which means that when my grandmother passes away that my uncle will get little to nothing because he has essentially already been given his inheritance.

Now, my OWN brother... that's a different story. Has been 'in' college now for almost 6 years without a real end in sight; all but flunked out of the college he was attending in person, and has been taking like one or two classes online per semester for the few years since, occasoinally essentially bombing THOSE classes (and I'm not talking engineering or the likes- I'm talking lit/creative writing...). Parents still almost completely support him, though at least since last summer he has not been living with them but working as a winter caretaker at the summer camp he has worked at for a while. Seriously doubt he's saved anything from what he should be making over room and board. Parents had let him use one of their cars for a while (I'd fixed up my grandparents' old Toyota for him to drive but he didn't want to learn stick so my Dad ended up with it) and when that crapped out they bought a new Chevy Cruze for him- which in theory he's supposed to be making the payments on but hasn't done so since it was bought a few years ago. While I am somewhat proud of it, it's also somewhat scary to think that of the 5 kids in my immediate family in my generation (brother and I and 3 cousins) I'm the only one who hasn't had to move back home and live with his parents for an extended period of time- and I believe the only one to have gone through college without any interruptions.

frugalecon

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2014, 11:04:56 AM »
Visiting sister again. Now hubby has ditched his BMW wagon for a BMW M3, the car of his dreams. But in a sign of progress, he asked me how my sister could start saving for retirement as a self-employed person. Now that she is almost 45, I guess it is time. He's doing his share, since he is saving $1600/month of his quarter million dollar annual salary. But he is worried that his wife needs to get started...

brizna

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2014, 10:16:14 PM »
This thread has been super entertaining.

Visiting sister again. Now hubby has ditched his BMW wagon for a BMW M3, the car of his dreams. But in a sign of progress, he asked me how my sister could start saving for retirement as a self-employed person. Now that she is almost 45, I guess it is time. He's doing his share, since he is saving $1600/month of his quarter million dollar annual salary. But he is worried that his wife needs to get started...

250K and just starting to save? Man.

Respond with: https://screen.yahoo.com/dont-buy-stuff-000000884.html

fartface

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2014, 03:28:33 PM »
Visiting sister again. Now hubby has ditched his BMW wagon for a BMW M3, the car of his dreams. But in a sign of progress, he asked me how my sister could start saving for retirement as a self-employed person. Now that she is almost 45, I guess it is time. He's doing his share, since he is saving $1600/month of his quarter million dollar annual salary. But he is worried that his wife needs to get started...

$250K annual salary and he can't pay your parents on fixed income back for the $10,000 audit? The nuts on that guy...even $1000/month 'til it's paid back would be some kind of gesture. What a pathetic douche.

Reading Sh!t like this reaffirms what I will and won't do for my kids. Today we talked about "co-signing" and I explained how it worked. Then I asked my children, "How many times do you guys think I asked MY parents to co-sign a loan for me?" My youngest daughter immediately chirped, "None."

What can I say? My kids know me well.

sobezen

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2014, 03:32:32 PM »
Also there is a fine art to acknowledging new stupid purchases without congratulating someone, try to make it a game.  "Wow that is a really great looking new car, must be fun to drive.  Gee I could never buy one myself I'm just to addicted to not having a car payment."

I love this response!

Very classy response indeed!  I would've asked when exactly does she plan on paying our parents back.  She does realize that they are on a fixed income, right?  I feel being tactful with self-absorbed people does not work.


I have to admit that I am the kind of person who would say that I find it hard to celebrate her new car when she didn't have the money for her audit...but only because she initiated the discussion, otherwise I would have ignored.

I would have raised the loan there's no way taking advantage of our aging parents is cool. Which brings me to CommonCents clever response:

"Congratulations, that's awesome you're doing better financially to be able to buy a really nice car like a BMW.  I bet it's a super comfy ride.  I know mom & dad will also be excited by this news that you're doing so much better and they'll soon get the money they loaned you back, since dad isn't doing so well health-wise these days."

Yes this is perfect!  And then moment of silence, waiting for your sister to gasp like a fish out of water in shock that you'd have the audacity to call her out.  Priceless.

Perfect response to sister would be:  "Wow.  I didn't realize you had already paid mom and dad back!"

Since the opportunity has already passed, I would encourage you to practice a certain amount of authenticity in what you say in the future.  So, while you *could* hold your tongue and not reveal any hint of your true feelings, I think it's preferable to give them the truthful but toned-down version -- something like, "You know, I'm honestly a bit disappointed that you upgraded your cars before paying mom and dad back.  I think they've been really good to us both and I'd love to see you take that obligation off the back burner so that they know you appreciate them." 

And this to me is the nicest blend of honesty and tongue lashing.  I salute each of these highly creative responses since I find more often than not, my Mustachian side would be to just call a spade a spade.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 03:45:19 PM by sobezen »

MrsPotts

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2014, 07:37:00 PM »
"Other family members" think I'm an asshole, maybe I am. But enough is enough.

You are not an asshole.  You are refusing to subsidize your MIL's mental illness, which is appropriate.  I think encouraging her to seek help, plus the occasional bag of groceries for times when she has nothing to freaking eat, are all that is required here.

Yep, that's called enabling. This person is an addict. Different substance, but same addiction as alcohol or crack. Don't enable, fix. You are not an asshole sir.

Actually, hoarding is a mental illness. While I don't think you are an asshole, the kind thing to do would be to offer to help her get mental health services.  Depression is easily treatable with medication and evidence based cognitive behavioral therapy.

Lis

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2014, 02:42:04 PM »
To be honest, I'm a little taken aback by the sarcasm and passive aggressiveness here, maybe because it hits a bit close to home. It's one thing to giggle over the stupid things you might hear at work or read online, but this is something that's causing strain on family. It's not just between you and your sister, but your parents too. And with one parent starting to suffer from dementia, that makes it 100x more difficult.

My grandmother suffers from dementia, and when it got to the point that it was unsafe for her to live on her own, my mom moved her to an assisted living place. Out of no where, cousins (mom's siblings' kids) came out of no where and like vultures tried to pick apart the house. My mom, who is extremely empathetic, tried to be nice and give things away that might be of sentimental value. But the more she gave the more the cousins demanded. My mom is trying to clean out the house and sell it to help fund my grandmother's stay in the assisted living home, and the cousins were really hindering the effort. Finally, my mom put her foot down and told them that she needs to do what's best for her mother, and they can have whatever the will states they can have when she passes. Until then, they need to stop considering my grandmother to be an ATM.

Honestly, the best bet is to be direct and honest (but not overly callous) with your sister. Something along the lines of "You know I can't congratulate you on your new car when you owe mom and dad so much money." Tell her you could afford that BMW in cash, but the reason you can is because you don't make purchases like that. Ask her why she loves expensive cars - is it because they look cool? Is it because of a status symbol? The most difficult question to ask is what happens when your parents do pass, and they're not around to bail her out anymore? She'll get pissed at you. She'll be angry that you're butting into her life. There's very little chance she'll make a complete 180 and dive head first into mustachianism. But if you don't act like you're judging her, there's a good chance she'll reach out for help. Real help, like starting a budget, or investing questions.

As far as your parents are concerned, make sure your mom knows your views, but as long as your sister isn't hurting your parents (shiestiness aside), there's nothing you can really do about her giving your sister money. She's her mom, and it sounds like she's tried to give your sister everything she could all her life. It's probably not worth the fight to try to change her mind.

I'm sorry about your dad. Dementia is terrible and is tough on all family members involved.

okashira

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2014, 06:26:15 PM »
Visiting sister again. Now hubby has ditched his BMW wagon for a BMW M3, the car of his dreams. But in a sign of progress, he asked me how my sister could start saving for retirement as a self-employed person. Now that she is almost 45, I guess it is time. He's doing his share, since he is saving $1600/month of his quarter million dollar annual salary. But he is worried that his wife needs to get started...

$250K annual salary and he can't pay your parents on fixed income back for the $10,000 audit? The nuts on that guy...even $1000/month 'til it's paid back would be some kind of gesture. What a pathetic douche.

Reading Sh!t like this reaffirms what I will and won't do for my kids. Today we talked about "co-signing" and I explained how it worked. Then I asked my children, "How many times do you guys think I asked MY parents to co-sign a loan for me?" My youngest daughter immediately chirped, "None."

What can I say? My kids know me well.

Wow, they really are bad with money. 250,000/yr, wife also works, and can only afford an M3? Ha!

Primm

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2014, 06:32:18 PM »
She'll get pissed at you. She'll be angry that you're butting into her life. There's very little chance she'll make a complete 180 and dive head first into mustachianism. But if you don't act like you're judging her, there's a good chance she'll reach out for help. Real help, like starting a budget, or investing questions.

Either that or she'll never talk to you again, because no matter how non-judgemental your tone, that's how she'll perceive it. "I could afford that car in cash but that's because I don't buy stupid shit" = "your life sucks" = "I'm better than you".

I've been there, done that. Didn't work for me. At 45 I'd rather have that relationship back, but she won't have it. I try to think of it as her loss, and now that my nieces are grown I'm back in contact with them, but there were a lot of missing years.

thurston howell iv

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2014, 10:35:12 AM »
Wow. This thread hits home with me as well.

My little sister who is nearing her late 30's is a similar type of person. She gets lots of "loans" that my parents and I joke about as "mandy loans" - (ie: ones that will never be paid back)... Sadly, she has managed to turn this into a habit. (Parents have given her 2 cars and several thousand dollars)

It irks me to no end when she has "no money" for bills or even groceries but she has money to go to an amusement park.

My parents, who have no savings and are scraping by will go and put food in her fridge (for the grandchildren) and she will spend every last dime she has on stupid crap... She was pleased to show me her new ipad, the 3-4 new iphones when they came out (had to have them for the kids too)... Recently she "upgraded" to the Galaxy 5 or whatever the newest one is. Loaded with the bells and whistles and a 2 year contract.  I told her about mmm's $10 airvoice phone plan and how my bill is essentially $20 a month these days while hers is over $200. She wasn't interested in the least. 

I asked her what she needs all these gadgets for. It's not like she's a Fortune 500 CEO or someone who needs to be "on" all the time... She earns $13 an hour working for some no-name company...   

I try to talk to her in a non-preachy way and even try to talk to the kids but it's no use. I fear that they're all hopeless idiots.

The problem stems back to dear old mom who is concerned with other people's opinions. She had a Caddy but wanted a BMW or Mercedes. Mind you, she's never been in one but wanted one so that she could say she had one...Then I pointed out the Rolls Royce... Then, she wanted one of those... LOL

I've told her a hundred times that she sets the tone, the example for my sister and the kids... They see that she has nice stuff and they want it too so that they will look rich.   I've tried to explain 100 times that "stuff" doesn't make you rich but there is a real disconnect with teenagers and their perceptions of reality and illusion.

To combat what I see as disaster when my parents finally pass, I've had them set up a trust (guess who's the trustee?) along with a spendthrift provision so that my sister won't be homeless within a year...

Now, I'm nowhere near FI... Just found MMM a while ago and have been paying down tons of student loan debt so I am no authority but, I really am trying...

How is it that the responsible ones get stuck with all the headaches?

Jack

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2014, 11:18:37 AM »
If some spendthrift wanted me to respond to their new car purchase, I would simply offer my condolences.

PloddingInsight

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2014, 12:39:20 PM »
Visiting sister again. Now hubby has ditched his BMW wagon for a BMW M3, the car of his dreams. But in a sign of progress, he asked me how my sister could start saving for retirement as a self-employed person. Now that she is almost 45, I guess it is time. He's doing his share, since he is saving $1600/month of his quarter million dollar annual salary. But he is worried that his wife needs to get started...

Wait, your sister's husband brings home $250,000 a year, and she's getting periodically bailed out by your parents?  WOT

solon

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2014, 01:49:03 PM »
If some spendthrift wanted me to respond to their new car purchase, I would simply offer my condolences.

I did this.

My cousin posted a picture of an iPad box, and said, "Look what arrived today!"
I responded: "Oh, I'm sorry. If you don't open it, they might let you return it. If that doesn't work, you might be able to donate it to some charity downtown."

I don't think he got my humor :(

Goldielocks

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2014, 05:14:40 PM »
You can add me to the list of understanding.   My SIL and family are / were constantly bailed out by MIL.   

Housing:   MIL provided 30% of the money for their home, and will receive 30% of the price when it sells, except they keep rolling it over into the new home for them.   I would like $200k interest free too.   It doesn't stop there, of course, in return for having the basement bedroom their own for use when in town, they pay half the property taxes, half the utilities, etc...  Do all the home upgrades, a lot of cleaning, and lawn care.

They were paying all the car insurance and gas on the car, because they borrow it when in town.


MIL provided free child care for 7 years for SIL, because SIL could not afford it.  So that MIL and FIL can eat what they like to eat, when there, (and they make meals for all 2x per week), they were buying all the "nice" groceries.   MIL mentioned that when she arrived on Monday mornings for child care duty, there was nearly no food in the house to feed the girls and she had to buy all the kids food during the week too.

I realized something was up, when years ago , in a massive attempt to fix my spendy ways, I was trying to reduce my Grocery bill from $900+ per month.  I asked everyone for advice / tips, and my SIL mentioned that their family of four only spent $150/month on food and soap / paper towels.   I was blown over (this is Canada pricing), and I know they had a lot of name brand boxes in the cupboards, yogurt, sweets, crackers, etc. I wanted to know how they did it, so I could too.  After puzzling over it, I gradually clued into what was happening with MIL / FIL filling the pantry, and my brother in law making vegetable stir fry for dinner nearly all the other meals eaten at home.   (He is quite good at this! yay for BIL)

Here is the kicker,

MIL finally became burnt out over the expectation of full time "on duty" childcare, with not even an outside relief planned, so she started to put her foot down about 2 years ago, and this year was off the hook for all but the occasional request.  Hooray!  Good for her!

But in the process, she started being fairly abrasive to her son, my husband, too. 
Hey mom, let's all go for a walk down by the pier and get ice cream after.   "Okay - but I'm not paying for everyone."
I'm thinking of buying a used car, what is your opinion of xxx (a car she used to drive)..  "I won't be helping you out with buying it"..  (well, of course not, why would you?)

Here's to hoping that she will "right side" back into a normal perspective, or keep her cutting comments limited to SIL!

CommonCents

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2014, 07:56:41 AM »
But in the process, she started being fairly abrasive to her son, my husband, too. 
Hey mom, let's all go for a walk down by the pier and get ice cream after.   "Okay - but I'm not paying for everyone."
I'm thinking of buying a used car, what is your opinion of xxx (a car she used to drive)..  "I won't be helping you out with buying it"..  (well, of course not, why would you?)

Here's to hoping that she will "right side" back into a normal perspective, or keep her cutting comments limited to SIL!

Next time she makes a comment, just be direct back.  "Perhaps you're referring to my sister?  I've never asked you to pay for things for myself, and I'm hurt that you think or imply that I would." 

Goldielocks

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2014, 05:16:20 PM »
But in the process, she started being fairly abrasive to her son, my husband, too. 
Hey mom, let's all go for a walk down by the pier and get ice cream after.   "Okay - but I'm not paying for everyone."
I'm thinking of buying a used car, what is your opinion of xxx (a car she used to drive)..  "I won't be helping you out with buying it"..  (well, of course not, why would you?)

Here's to hoping that she will "right side" back into a normal perspective, or keep her cutting comments limited to SIL!

Next time she makes a comment, just be direct back.  "Perhaps you're referring to my sister?  I've never asked you to pay for things for myself, and I'm hurt that you think or imply that I would."
Tempting, but likely overkill response to her overkill reply. 

Much better to let my DH talk to her for day to day stuff.

Elderwood17

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #73 on: August 27, 2014, 08:47:19 PM »
I am sure this thread hits home for a lot of us.  My parents have five kids.....four are responsible and they help out the fifth, who has gotten money from them repeatedly.  His wife got a nice inheritance from her parents, but did they pay my struggling parents back?  No.

I wonder why so many parents help the one(s) who have means but just aren't responsible?

MsRichLife

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2014, 08:53:01 PM »
As far as my sister is concerned, it is odd to me that someone expects congratulations over buying a car.

My sister goes out of her way not to mention the spendypant car/boat/motorbike/home improvement purchases because she knows exactly what I think of it. When I go to visit I see the new items and ask when she bought X and why didn't she mention it? She usually looks sheepish. :)

CommonCents

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2014, 01:13:46 PM »
But in the process, she started being fairly abrasive to her son, my husband, too. 
Hey mom, let's all go for a walk down by the pier and get ice cream after.   "Okay - but I'm not paying for everyone."
I'm thinking of buying a used car, what is your opinion of xxx (a car she used to drive)..  "I won't be helping you out with buying it"..  (well, of course not, why would you?)

Here's to hoping that she will "right side" back into a normal perspective, or keep her cutting comments limited to SIL!

Next time she makes a comment, just be direct back.  "Perhaps you're referring to my sister?  I've never asked you to pay for things for myself, and I'm hurt that you think or imply that I would."
Tempting, but likely overkill response to her overkill reply. 

Much better to let my DH talk to her for day to day stuff.

Sure it's overkill, but I was under the impression this type of response was happening multiple times not just a one off instance, and I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that you had already tried a lower key response of "Of course not, why would you?"  At some point, when you've tried increasing levels of: ignoring them, low key responses, DH responding more directly, then you need to either get more direct or just suck it up.  I don't suck things up so well myself and at some point, the dam will burst.  Based on you posting here, I figured you too might be looking for something to stop her comments rather than suck it up (but again, I could be wrong in that assumption, in which case, carry on with silent seething!).

MandalayVA

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2014, 02:45:22 PM »
This thread could be about my in-laws.  My husband is the oldest of five and the only son.  Back in the day my father-in-law and his father ran a North American Van franchise.  A moving company in a military town = making big bucks.  However, my husband and SIL 1 committed a grievous sin in my FIL's eyes ... they had the audacity to leave Virginia Beach.  Sure, he's tossed checks their way, but compared to what he's done for the SILs who stayed it's a drop in the bucket.  Right now he's supporting ALL of them--literally.  One SIL is blind, another is incredibly lazy and nasty to boot (which is why she can't get/keep jobs), and the youngest, who's my age, only recently got her VERY first job because her husband just got fired from his job.  FIL, who's 82 and not in great health, is currently paying TWO mortgages, both $2000+ and pricey apartment rent for Blind SIL.  None of them cook, so they eat out all the time.  He pays for that too.  Car lease payments?  Yep, two of them (Toyota Highlander and a Lexus SUV).  When he dies, what any of them are going to do financially is going to be a shitstorm of the highest order.

Hunny156

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #77 on: September 18, 2014, 09:41:21 AM »
Yup, I can relate here too.  It's my older (former) sister, who began working at a young age, got her employer to pay for her education even if it did take her a decade to graduate, and generally made a very decent salary up until the economy fizzled a few years ago.  It was like pulling teeth to get her to contribute even 6% to her 401K, b/c she felt she was too young to worry about retirement.  Not that it matters now, she's liquidated the account in recent years.

She's never lived out on her own, never has had to pay rent or a mortgage, got her first two cars as freebies from my parents, and spent every last cent on clothes, designer purses, manicures, etc.  My parents both tried to make her more responsible, but it all fell on deaf ears, and they refused to push her out on her own so she could learn responsibility in the real world.  Dad passed, and Mom got dementia.  Long story short,  Mom lives close to us now, in assisted living.  After a year, I got my sister to move downstairs into the smaller apartment, and my Mom's main floor unit was rented out, roughly covering the cost of her care here.

My sister still couldn't hack it, so she "borrowed" $$ from my Mom's accounts every time taxes needed to get paid, repairs, you name it.  Never paid a dime of rent for her apartment either, and never adjusted her lifestyle when she lost her financial services job and started collecting unemployment.  When unemployment ran out, she presented paperwork of a revokable trust she got my Mom to sign, even using a chunk of my Mom's $$ to pay the unscrupulous lawyer!  So, she revoked the trust, cashed it all out, and shut down all my mom's accounts so I no longer had access to funds to cover my Mom's care.  We have joint power of attorney, which is utterly useless.

Luckily, I started to see heavy activity on my Mom's accounts, so I acted quickly and pre-paid her final expenses and dumped a few months of assisted living payments into her account at the facility.  When she found out, she attempted to get a refund from the funeral home and the assisted living director!  I was done at that point, so my lawyer sent her a notice reminding her that my mother has survivorship rights on the house, so if she stopped paying for my Mom's care, we were prepared to return my mother back home, and she could deal with it.  This was a threat, we would never put my mom in that situation again, but we knew it was the only card we had left to play.

It did the trick, and she has been using the rent money to cover my mom's care, and traveling with friends quite a bit, so I'm sure she's running through my mom's savings at a very fast clip.  A recent image from Google earth shows that the fence that was blown away by Superstorm Sandy has still not been repaired.  This is an affluent neighborhood, I'm shocked that the neighbors have let that slide for so many years, but it seems like everyone is willing to cut a break to those who deserve it the least.  :(

frugalecon

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2014, 04:09:18 AM »
Yup, I can relate here too.  It's my older (former) sister, who began working at a young age, got her employer to pay for her education even if it did take her a decade to graduate, and generally made a very decent salary up until the economy fizzled a few years ago.  It was like pulling teeth to get her to contribute even 6% to her 401K, b/c she felt she was too young to worry about retirement.  Not that it matters now, she's liquidated the account in recent years.

She's never lived out on her own...

 :(

Wow, this is really a heartbreaking story. Your mother is fortunate to have you as a caretaker who puts your mother's interests first. I wonder what ultimately happens in cases like these. When all of the parent's money is gone, how does the child end up supporting him or herself? Is this how people become homeless?

Hunny156

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2014, 11:22:08 AM »
Yup, I can relate here too.  It's my older (former) sister, who began working at a young age, got her employer to pay for her education even if it did take her a decade to graduate, and generally made a very decent salary up until the economy fizzled a few years ago.  It was like pulling teeth to get her to contribute even 6% to her 401K, b/c she felt she was too young to worry about retirement.  Not that it matters now, she's liquidated the account in recent years.

She's never lived out on her own...

 :(

Wow, this is really a heartbreaking story. Your mother is fortunate to have you as a caretaker who puts your mother's interests first. I wonder what ultimately happens in cases like these. When all of the parent's money is gone, how does the child end up supporting him or herself? Is this how people become homeless?

After this experience, I'm convinced that people like this will always find a way to get a free ride in life.  Prior to stealing my mom's money, she did go on a rare vacation with friends, but the story sounded really shady.  Best I could tell, she had a male admirer who paid her way, and I know her, she acted all innocent and didn't "repay" the favor.  She's an excellent manipulator - when all this mess happened, she refused to talk to me about it, so she had a lawyer contact me.  The whole thing sounded absurd - what lawyer calls feuding sisters and demands that the phone calls stop?  I pretty much laughed him off, checked him out online, and sure enough, he's another one of her admirer's.  I guess once he figured out that she had no intention of paying him for his services, he was smart enough to walk away.  But there will be more suckers, of that I'm sure.  She plays the role well. 

Once my Mom passes away and we sell the house, she'll blow through that wad too, and I'll bet that's when she finds a sugar daddy to marry.  I've since moved, changed all my numbers, and removed her completely from my life.  The wake & funeral will be awkward, but I'm going to do my best to keep it about my Mom, and not about stupid family drama.  After that, the lawyers can handle the sale of the house, and she better not ever darken my doorway again.  She didn't burn the bridge, she bombed it.  Life is too short to keep negative people like that in your life.  I've made my peace with it and am moving on.

Gockie

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #80 on: September 20, 2014, 02:16:37 AM »
Hate to say this but from reading this thread, I'm seeing whinypants and "I'm superior to so and so because I save money". And, poor me because the oldies forget the financially responsible. Would love to see more solutions and some positive outcome! OP, your parents need your help, and your sister needs some help. Just remind her that your parents aren't going to be around forever and she won't be able to rely on them forever, and that it's good to have savings set aside for when those unexpected expenses crop up.... Would she like to see her home or car repossessed for non payment?
Cheers.

Father Dougal

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #81 on: September 22, 2014, 06:50:44 AM »
Wait just a minute, my Mustachian friends!

The comments here are very well-intentioned.  But the advice to frugalecon about what to say to her sister is mostly terrible.  As Mustachians, we are a practical bunch.  We are logical, analytical and perhaps tend to make decisions with our heads, after carefully considering the evidence, rather than with our hearts and gut feel.

Frugalecon’s sister does not fall into this category.  She is making decisions based on her feelings and her values are Antimustachian.  If frugalecon deals with her as if she is a Mustachian, it will be a disaster.  The comments recommended so far (like “Wow. I didn't realize you had already paid mom and dad back!") might work on a fellow Mustachian.  They won’t work on the sister.  What are we expecting her to say? “Well, thanks for reminding me! I guess I should pay my parents back before buying myself a pointless, expensive car.”  It ain’t gonna happen.  She is going to hear something totally different to what you are actually saying, frugalecon.  Perhaps: “I disapprove that you haven’t paid mom and dad back” (funnily enough, that is what you are actually saying).  She is likely to react emotionally, thinking “Mom said it was fine not to pay her back immediately, so why is she hassling me?”

Before engaging with your sister, perhaps talking to your mom first would be wise (eg “I feel angry that she hasn’t paid back the loan.  I am worried that my sister is going to continue to take advantage of you and dad and I want to protect you.”).  Getting her response might be useful in deciding what to do next.

If you decide to broach the subject with your sister (although I think it’s unlikely her behaviour will change) I believe the best bet is to find a way to talk to her in her own language.  It might be that using feelings (“I feel angry/upset …”) could provide a way in.  After all, she can’t deny what you feel and her response might give you some clues about her opinion.  But it would be helpful to think about what you are hoping to achieve from the discussion.

This is a very difficult situation, and it seems to me that you are stressed and angry about it and really want to do something.  These sideways (and, dare I say, slightly passive/aggressive) comments being recommended in the hope that she will take the hint are not the answer. 

I feel so much better to have got that off my chest.  Good luck, all.  Especially you, frugalecon!  It sounds like you are a good person in a bad situation.

FD

sobezen

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #82 on: September 26, 2014, 06:15:11 PM »
Yup, I can relate here too.  It's my older (former) sister, who began working at a young age, got her employer to pay for her education even if it did take her a decade to graduate, and generally made a very decent salary up until the economy fizzled a few years ago.  It was like pulling teeth to get her to contribute even 6% to her 401K, b/c she felt she was too young to worry about retirement.  Not that it matters now, she's liquidated the account in recent years.

She's never lived out on her own...

 :(

Wow, this is really a heartbreaking story. Your mother is fortunate to have you as a caretaker who puts your mother's interests first. I wonder what ultimately happens in cases like these. When all of the parent's money is gone, how does the child end up supporting him or herself? Is this how people become homeless?

After this experience, I'm convinced that people like this will always find a way to get a free ride in life.  Prior to stealing my mom's money, she did go on a rare vacation with friends, but the story sounded really shady.  Best I could tell, she had a male admirer who paid her way, and I know her, she acted all innocent and didn't "repay" the favor.  She's an excellent manipulator - when all this mess happened, she refused to talk to me about it, so she had a lawyer contact me.  The whole thing sounded absurd - what lawyer calls feuding sisters and demands that the phone calls stop?  I pretty much laughed him off, checked him out online, and sure enough, he's another one of her admirer's.  I guess once he figured out that she had no intention of paying him for his services, he was smart enough to walk away.  But there will be more suckers, of that I'm sure.  She plays the role well. 

Once my Mom passes away and we sell the house, she'll blow through that wad too, and I'll bet that's when she finds a sugar daddy to marry.  I've since moved, changed all my numbers, and removed her completely from my life.  The wake & funeral will be awkward, but I'm going to do my best to keep it about my Mom, and not about stupid family drama.  After that, the lawyers can handle the sale of the house, and she better not ever darken my doorway again.  She didn't burn the bridge, she bombed it.  Life is too short to keep negative people like that in your life.  I've made my peace with it and am moving on.
@ Hunny156: Wow! I agree with you that "[some] people [who are financially irresponsible] will always find a way to get a free ride in life." It is saddening to hear that your sister cares more about fulfilling her hedonist desires and appears to demonstrate little concern or remorse for her actions towards her mother. I wholeheartedly agree that one day when your mom passes, it is best to distance yourself completely from your 'entitled' sister. I really applaud your efforts to be a good daughter, it is not easy.

frugalecon

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #83 on: August 11, 2015, 07:18:44 PM »
And now, for a surreal epilogue, I learn that my sister has had plastic surgery to enlarge certain (nonfinancial) assets, still without paying my parents back for their loan. Oh well. I guess one has to prioritize. But at least she and hubby got the money from a sensible source: hitting it moderately big on a scratcher lottery ticket. I swear I'm not making this up.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 01:18:06 PM by frugalecon »

Sofa King

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2015, 09:31:20 AM »


[/quote]


  I've since moved, changed all my numbers, and removed her completely from my life.  The wake & funeral will be awkward, but I'm going to do my best to keep it about my Mom, and not about stupid family drama.  After that, the lawyers can handle the sale of the house, and she better not ever darken my doorway again.  She didn't burn the bridge, she bombed it.  Life is too short to keep negative people like that in your life.  I've made my peace with it and am moving on.
[/quote]

Have a similar thing going on in my wife's side of the family. As hard as it is I feel you are making the best choices you can under these  circumstances.

Avidconsumer

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2015, 10:34:44 AM »
When I was a kid, the only reason why I showed my friends and family my stuff was to show off and make them feel jealous or that I'm somehow successful or better off than them.

This has not changed in some adults. These are the exact reasons why people post their fancy crap on Facebook. What I've also found out, is that 99% of the population couldn't care less how expensive your wedding is or what you drive or any of that fancy crap.

Let's not be confused here, we are all competitive. The added bonus of FIRE is that you're able to show your family/friends how successful you are. To show off in a way. We all feed off being better off than our siblings. Some do it falsely by buying pricey items that they cant really afford. Some get out of the game early.

It's the way of the world. If I was you, I would probably just congratulate your sister, but it would be a sinister plan, as she feeds off it and makes her more inclined to do it again in the future. Then once you're retired at 40. You send her all those lovely pictures you'll have when you're travelling 6 months a year.

Guses

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2015, 10:41:46 AM »
And now, for a surreal epilogue, I learn that my sister has had plastic surgery to enlarge certain (nonfinancial) assets, still without paying my parents back for their loan. I swear I'm not making this up.

Pictures or it didn't happen!

Faraday

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2015, 11:07:19 AM »
Visiting sister again. Now hubby has ditched his BMW wagon for a BMW M3, the car of his dreams. But in a sign of progress, he asked me how my sister could start saving for retirement as a self-employed person. Now that she is almost 45, I guess it is time. He's doing his share, since he is saving $1600/month of his quarter million dollar annual salary. But he is worried that his wife needs to get started...

I got two comments the nature of which I've not yet seen in this thread:

1) Stop comparing yourself to your siblings and Thank <Diety> they don't really know, or care, that you are mustachian. You really don't want people like that finding out you even have a dollar to your name, or they will start trying to suck every dollar out of you that they can. Seriously, you really need to hunker down and make sure you keep your self and finances out of sight, out of mind.

2) Why not compliment them on their purchases, then get them to let you ENJOY THE PURCHASE TOO. I mean, I've not seen you write in this thread that you've even gotten a "fun ride" in the car, much less getting them to take you to the store or on a trip or something.

In other words, why are you not trying to enjoy their toys as well? That's what we do with family members who buy stuff we would never in a milliion years buy - I "ooo" and "ahhh" over it like crazy, get a "test ride", then any chance I can, I get them to ferry me around in their new car....

In fact, convince them to buy a bicycle carrier for the BMW and see if you can get them to come pick you up sometime when it's pouring rain!

I'm a red panda

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2015, 11:08:51 AM »
Somehow this today is the first time I've seen this thread pop up.
I really thought it would be about the OP changing their mind and not buying a car from his/her sister like s/he promised.

It was remarkably different from that.

MgoSam

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2015, 11:14:35 AM »
I will say that I feel a little bummed out that my brother didn't call me to congratulate my on buying a home. I don't really care for congratulations, and don't even want to have a house warming party or anything like that, but I feel like it would be somewhat nice of him to have done so. Then I realize he probably doesn't have any clue, and so cut him some slack.

Avidconsumer

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #90 on: August 21, 2015, 11:26:40 AM »
I personally don't make a big deal out of stepping stones like paying off my house or purchasing a nice car. My family doesn't know what goals I have accomplished, as I don't feel these stepping stones are that amazing. Plus I don't think they will feel too great knowing that, just because of their personalities.

I think Mustashianism is difficult to preach and in most cases will just result in jealous and resentment. Telling someone your goals maybe one thing, but breaking it down into networth will just cause jealousy. I've tried to convince family members to save a bit more, but that doesn't necessary make them happy. Buying crap and showing off does, so whatever really just embrace it. I still want them to feel awesome about themselves, so compliment them about new stuff. There's no real right or wrong answer when it comes to spending/saving.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #91 on: August 21, 2015, 05:18:50 PM »
I'm the youngest of 4 children and 9 cousins. My siblings have never congratulated me for any life event that I can remember. It was no longer interesting when it happened for the 4th time, and they had all moved on to the next thing anyway. When I graduated from high school, they were all in college or grad school. When I started college, they were all talking about jobs. When I got a job, they were all talking about buying houses. I suppose when I've outlived them all I can congratulate myself.

Drew664

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #92 on: August 23, 2015, 08:54:09 PM »
I'm the youngest of 4 children and 9 cousins. My siblings have never congratulated me for any life event that I can remember. It was no longer interesting when it happened for the 4th time, and they had all moved on to the next thing anyway. When I graduated from high school, they were all in college or grad school. When I started college, they were all talking about jobs. When I got a job, they were all talking about buying houses. I suppose when I've outlived them all I can congratulate myself.

lol, reminds me of my little brother. I always congratulate him on life events though.

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2015, 09:10:10 AM »
I'm the youngest of 4 children and 9 cousins. My siblings have never congratulated me for any life event that I can remember. It was no longer interesting when it happened for the 4th time, and they had all moved on to the next thing anyway. When I graduated from high school, they were all in college or grad school. When I started college, they were all talking about jobs. When I got a job, they were all talking about buying houses. I suppose when I've outlived them all I can congratulate myself.

lolol @ the last line.

Making Cookies

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #94 on: August 25, 2015, 02:07:04 PM »
I'd probably text her a Saturday morning picture of my freshly cleaned 17 year old paid off CHEVY sedan.

I adore easy little chores like washing the car or mowing the grass. Its a different kind of meditation. Also very, very fond of being car payment free.

Rosy

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #95 on: August 25, 2015, 02:29:53 PM »
I would have said, "Oh congrats sis - I didn't know you'd already paid Dad back for the IRS loan. Sweet, I know Mom will be happy about that".

On the congrats issue - I guess I'm the only deviant:) here, I always congratulate everyone, because I'm happy for them. It is not for me to judge them, although I admit to the occasional snarky thought when I know they shouldn't have.
Yeah, and I love seeing someone get a shiny new car and I'll definitely say congrats on FB.

Family is always harder, but I have finally found the courage to say what I want to say - I no longer bite my tongue and it feels good. Family drama is not my thing, but hey, I simply no longer care if they are outraged at my critiscm. Seems they never have any trouble saying what they want to to me:) I'm just over it, that's all.

What occurred to me OP, is that perhaps your Mom would appreciate you backing her up in saying NO to any future bail outs. Saying NO is not easy when it comes to your children, wayward and money foolish they may be, but you love them and want to help. However, as people get older and they recognize that they are being financially abused, they want to hold on to their funds, because they know they can never again replace them and their kids will not help them out - no matter how often they themselves bailed out the kids in the past. She may need your full support to learn to say NO in the future.

Your parents trust you to help them with their finances and they will trust you to protect their assets - so perhaps a gentle talk with your mom is in order, before she is in serious financial trouble herself.   

Just giving you another perspective from my life experience, good luck.

...and yes, let your Mustachianism hang out and send her a pic of your freshly washed shiny car:) She'll get the message.

KittyCat

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #96 on: August 25, 2015, 02:56:19 PM »
I'm the youngest of 4 children and 9 cousins. My siblings have never congratulated me for any life event that I can remember. It was no longer interesting when it happened for the 4th time, and they had all moved on to the next thing anyway. When I graduated from high school, they were all in college or grad school. When I started college, they were all talking about jobs. When I got a job, they were all talking about buying houses. I suppose when I've outlived them all I can congratulate myself.
My brother and I never congratulate each other on anything. We respond to good each other's news/accomplishments with "koo" or "so/and?". We are a loving pair of siblings.

Making Cookies

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #97 on: August 25, 2015, 03:32:29 PM »
Why can't life be more like Mayberry RFD? ;)

NoraLenderBee - a belated congratulations on everything...

I'm the youngest of 4 children and 9 cousins. My siblings have never congratulated me for any life event that I can remember.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 08:03:07 AM by Joe Average »

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Sister upset I didn't honor car purchase
« Reply #98 on: August 26, 2015, 09:55:24 PM »
Why can't life be more like Mayberry RFD? ;)

NoraLenderBee - a belated congratulations on everything...

I'm the youngest of 4 children and 9 cousins. My siblings have never congratulated me for any life event that I can remember.

Joe Average, thank you for recognizing my accomplishments, like learning to read and to ride a bicycle. :)