Author Topic: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition  (Read 34672 times)

Jamesqf

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2014, 11:07:33 PM »
The studies done by Dr. Lisak and his colleagues were done on the rapists themselves.  They were asked such things "have you ever held someone down so you could have sex with them, when he or she did not want to", "have you ever given someone alcoholic drinks, so he or she could not say no"? 

Studying actual rapists seems like a very strange way to determine the prevalence of rape. 

As for the alcoholic drink question, where do you draw the line between "would not" and "could not"? 

Gin1984

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #101 on: March 11, 2014, 07:31:54 AM »
The studies done by Dr. Lisak and his colleagues were done on the rapists themselves.  They were asked such things "have you ever held someone down so you could have sex with them, when he or she did not want to", "have you ever given someone alcoholic drinks, so he or she could not say no"? 

Studying actual rapists seems like a very strange way to determine the prevalence of rape. 

As for the alcoholic drink question, where do you draw the line between "would not" and "could not"?
It actually was very smart.  He was able to show that the majority of men were not rapists because the prevalent hypothesis had assumed that it was 1:1.  He also was able to disprove the "accidental" rape idea, that two people just got drunk together and then one woke up regretting it.  When the average college rapist rapes about 6 times, that is not an accident. 
There has been much research on the victims, but to truly understand the act, you have to look at the attacker.  Just as we look at the attacker in any other crime to understand the crime. 

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #102 on: March 11, 2014, 01:20:46 PM »
The studies done by Dr. Lisak and his colleagues were done on the rapists themselves.  They were asked such things "have you ever held someone down so you could have sex with them, when he or she did not want to", "have you ever given someone alcoholic drinks, so he or she could not say no"? 

Studying actual rapists seems like a very strange way to determine the prevalence of rape. 

As for the alcoholic drink question, where do you draw the line between "would not" and "could not"?
It actually was very smart.  He was able to show that the majority of men were not rapists because the prevalent hypothesis had assumed that it was 1:1.  He also was able to disprove the "accidental" rape idea, that two people just got drunk together and then one woke up regretting it.  When the average college rapist rapes about 6 times, that is not an accident. 
There has been much research on the victims, but to truly understand the act, you have to look at the attacker.  Just as we look at the attacker in any other crime to understand the crime.

If you only look at the victim, that's a perpetuation of rape culture because it puts the onus on the victim.  "What did he/she do that brought this on?" rather than "Why the hell would someone do such a despicable thing?"  It's perfectly valid and necessary to look at both sides.  By looking to see what victims have in common, safety advocates have been able to make recommendations about what people should do to not become victims.  By speaking with and studying rapists, we can determine which personality type is likely to become a rapist, what circumstances make someone think it's ok, what they look for in a victim, and hundreds of other factors which are equally important for preventing rape.  I don't understand, Jamesqf, how you can argue that studying rapists wouldn't have any value to determining the prevalence of rape.  This is a very bizarre crime in that the victim usually feels shame and tries to hide what happened, while the perpetrator generally doesn't feel any such remorse.  That's why so many high school and college rapists will even go so far as to post videos of their crime online.  In the same way, they're often more willing to open up to a researcher (in effect, bragging about their crime) than victims are.

Jamesqf

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #103 on: March 11, 2014, 02:05:56 PM »
I don't understand, Jamesqf, how you can argue that studying rapists wouldn't have any value to determining the prevalence of rape.

Because you are, by definition, only studying those rapists who have been caught.  Now that may be somewhere close to 100% of all rapists, or it could be only 1% of them, and we have no real way of knowing which it is.  Since we don't know that, looking at just the caught rapists gives us no way of knowing how how many weren't caught, so we can't use that to figure out the prevalence of rape.

(Are you possibly confusing 'prevalence' - how frequently it occurs - with the psychology - why rapists rape?  Certainly studying rapists is valuable to learn about the psychology.)

There's also another 'gotcha' that applies to all sorts of crime studies.  If you study those who've been arrested/convicted, you are (again by definition, and leaving out false convictions) only looking at the unsuccessful criminals, because successful criminals don't get caught.  So we might reasonably speculate about what successful rapists (or thieves, killers, etc) do differently.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 02:10:27 PM by Jamesqf »

Gin1984

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #104 on: March 11, 2014, 02:24:00 PM »
I don't understand, Jamesqf, how you can argue that studying rapists wouldn't have any value to determining the prevalence of rape.

Because you are, by definition, only studying those rapists who have been caught.  Now that may be somewhere close to 100% of all rapists, or it could be only 1% of them, and we have no real way of knowing which it is.  Since we don't know that, looking at just the caught rapists gives us no way of knowing how how many weren't caught, so we can't use that to figure out the prevalence of rape.

(Are you possibly confusing 'prevalence' - how frequently it occurs - with the psychology - why rapists rape?  Certainly studying rapists is valuable to learn about the psychology.)

There's also another 'gotcha' that applies to all sorts of crime studies.  If you study those who've been arrested/convicted, you are (again by definition, and leaving out false convictions) only looking at the unsuccessful criminals, because successful criminals don't get caught.  So we might reasonably speculate about what successful rapists (or thieves, killers, etc) do differently.
If you read the link, they were studying non-caught rapists.

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2014, 02:37:06 PM »
Did you even bother reading the study which was linked? It's right there in the title: Repeat Rape and Multiple Offending Among Undetected Rapists. Not "rapists who have been caught". The sample was 1,882 randomly selected male college students.

If your point is that some of them didn't admit to their rapes (though the researchers are, unsurprisingly, smart enough to be aware of that, and design their surveys to avoid legal terms which might induce denial), how much more likely do you think women are to admit to being raped? I'd have thought the men would be a lot more cavalier about it, seeing as it likely never ruined their life, but y'know. I wasn't able to find data comparing rape prevalence as reported by women vs. as reported by men, but I have no reason to suppose men are less likely to admit it in confidence.

If you want to measure the prevalence of rape, why wouldn't talking to men be something that you would do? And what makes you think you know how to do it better than the experts in the field?

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #106 on: March 11, 2014, 06:56:08 PM »
This thread has an interesting dichotomy.  Multiple posters piled on to Mom of 5 for wanting to protect her daughter from sexual behavior/advances that might be detrimental to her well being, and then it turned into a debate about the prevalance of rape in college and the military, which would seem to imply that maybe young women/teenage girls need more support and (dare I say it?) protection than they are currently getting.

Gin1984

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #107 on: March 11, 2014, 07:32:24 PM »
This thread has an interesting dichotomy.  Multiple posters piled on to Mom of 5 for wanting to protect her daughter from sexual behavior/advances that might be detrimental to her well being, and then it turned into a debate about the prevalance of rape in college and the military, which would seem to imply that maybe young women/teenage girls need more support and (dare I say it?) protection than they are currently getting.
Read the article, that was NOT the conclusion by the researchers.  Actually most researchers found that the young people (men and women) that are "protected" and do not learn to handle themselves are the most targeted victims.  And really what needs to happen is these rapists need to be charged, convicted and jailed for an extremely long period of time, not a couple years, if that. 

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2014, 08:17:23 PM »
And really what needs to happen is these rapists need to be charged, convicted and jailed for an extremely long period of time, not a couple years, if that.
Now we're getting into the perpetual debate over "recidivism vs rehab", and I doubt there are any credible studies on either side of that controversy.

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2014, 08:33:56 PM »
Interesting debate but I thought the topic was a hs girl suing her parents...

randymarsh

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #110 on: March 11, 2014, 08:35:47 PM »
This thread has an interesting dichotomy.  Multiple posters piled on to Mom of 5 for wanting to protect her daughter from sexual behavior/advances that might be detrimental to her well being, and then it turned into a debate about the prevalance of rape in college and the military, which would seem to imply that maybe young women/teenage girls need more support and (dare I say it?) protection than they are currently getting.

I think the reason they "piled on" was because she presented a viewpoint that high school (and college?) girls are delicate snowflakes who need to be protected from all those aggressive boys with only one thing on their mind. That view was wrong in 1950 and it's wrong today. It suggests that women need to be babied and men need to be viewed with suspicion from puberty onwards because you never know which one of us is out looking to rape someone.

I'm probably one of the youngest posters on this board. I graduated HS in 2010. An equal number of boys and girls knew exactly what they were doing regarding sexual activity.

Jamesqf

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #111 on: March 11, 2014, 11:38:17 PM »
Did you even bother reading the study which was linked? It's right there in the title: Repeat Rape and Multiple Offending Among Undetected Rapists. Not "rapists who have been caught". The sample was 1,882 randomly selected male college students.

No, I didn't read the study.  I merely commented that it seemed a strange way to measure the incidence of rape (or just about anything else, FTM).  Still does, as it would IMHO be very unlikely that anyone would tell the truth in that sort of survey.  Either they exaggerate, or they say nothing.

Quote
If you want to measure the prevalence of rape, why wouldn't talking to men be something that you would do? And what makes you think you know how to do it better than the experts in the field?

Talking to men (or women) is something I would do only if I had a reasonable expectation of hearing the truth.  And I think I am perhaps better than academic 'experts' because I'm under no pressure to come up with publishable results :-)

Gin1984

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2014, 06:09:52 AM »
And really what needs to happen is these rapists need to be charged, convicted and jailed for an extremely long period of time, not a couple years, if that.
Now we're getting into the perpetual debate over "recidivism vs rehab", and I doubt there are any credible studies on either side of that controversy.
Given the rate of reoffense, and yes there have been many studies on this within the field, it is unlikely that a rapist will not reoffend.  They are closer in psychological status to pedophiles than murderers.

jba302

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2014, 07:57:46 AM »
I think the reason they "piled on" was because she presented a viewpoint that high school (and college?) girls are delicate snowflakes who need to be protected from all those aggressive boys with only one thing on their mind. That view was wrong in 1950 and it's wrong today. It suggests that women need to be babied and men need to be viewed with suspicion from puberty onwards because you never know which one of us is out looking to rape someone.

I'm probably one of the youngest posters on this board. I graduated HS in 2010. An equal number of boys and girls knew exactly what they were doing regarding sexual activity.

I don't doubt the second part of what you are saying, and I had something long winded to say here but realized I don't know the statistics on this - does anyone know the rates / population sizes of female aggressors against male victims?

From a parent of a girl perspective, I'll input this but I may need to withdraw it completely if the rates are not what I expect for the above question- physiologically, a male is going to be stronger than a female in a general population sense once going through and past puberty (control for outliers, blah blah). Consequentially, a male is going to be able to overpower a female physically more readily than the reverse. So while I don't see my daughters as "delicate snowflakes", I'm definitely going to tell them something different than I would if I had boys.

Gin1984

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #114 on: March 12, 2014, 08:18:54 AM »
Did you even bother reading the study which was linked? It's right there in the title: Repeat Rape and Multiple Offending Among Undetected Rapists. Not "rapists who have been caught". The sample was 1,882 randomly selected male college students.

No, I didn't read the study.  I merely commented that it seemed a strange way to measure the incidence of rape (or just about anything else, FTM).  Still does, as it would IMHO be very unlikely that anyone would tell the truth in that sort of survey.  Either they exaggerate, or they say nothing.

Quote
If you want to measure the prevalence of rape, why wouldn't talking to men be something that you would do? And what makes you think you know how to do it better than the experts in the field?

Talking to men (or women) is something I would do only if I had a reasonable expectation of hearing the truth.  And I think I am perhaps better than academic 'experts' because I'm under no pressure to come up with publishable results :-)
So, your complete ignorance is better than multiple educated researchers within the field.  Got it.  Yeah, that makes total sense.  You ignore that this is peer reviewed, and replicated.  We need an eye roll "smiley".

warfreak2

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #115 on: March 12, 2014, 01:49:53 PM »
At some point, you don't need to argue against someone to show that they are wrong; their own words stand for themselves.

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #116 on: March 13, 2014, 11:29:43 AM »
And really what needs to happen is these rapists need to be charged, convicted and jailed for an extremely long period of time, not a couple years, if that.
Now we're getting into the perpetual debate over "recidivism vs rehab", and I doubt there are any credible studies on either side of that controversy.
Given the rate of reoffense, and yes there have been many studies on this within the field, it is unlikely that a rapist will not reoffend.  They are closer in psychological status to pedophiles than murderers.

I don't know if any of you caught the fairly recent CNN article about the horrible, stupefying amount of rape in Alaska, but it actually brought up a program which, as far as I (and, I believe, the journalist reporting on this) know is completely unique. 

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/02/opinion/sutter-change-alaska-rape/

TL;DR: Once someone is out of prison (if they even go to prison), there are people in the community who are appointed to watch out for them/watch out for the community against them.  It basically creates circumstances which make it very, very hard for them to re-offend.  (And even rapists themselves will generally say that it's not a one-off deal: they will keep raping.)

I realize that this thread took a wrong turn, but isn't that the nature of conversation?

Poorman

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #117 on: March 14, 2014, 12:22:49 PM »
This thread has an interesting dichotomy.  Multiple posters piled on to Mom of 5 for wanting to protect her daughter from sexual behavior/advances that might be detrimental to her well being, and then it turned into a debate about the prevalance of rape in college and the military, which would seem to imply that maybe young women/teenage girls need more support and (dare I say it?) protection than they are currently getting.
Read the article, that was NOT the conclusion by the researchers.  Actually most researchers found that the young people (men and women) that are "protected" and do not learn to handle themselves are the most targeted victims.  And really what needs to happen is these rapists need to be charged, convicted and jailed for an extremely long period of time, not a couple years, if that.

Can you please direct me to the page and paragraph that talks about parenting?  I searched for it and couldn't find it.  I also did an automated search for the word "parent" and there was only one match and that was for how they controlled for sample size.  Based on that, I think you are drawing your own unsupported conclusions. 

Also, the concept of teaching your kids to handle themselves well and screening their romantic interests aren't mutually exclusive.  It's possible to do both, or neither.

This thread has an interesting dichotomy.  Multiple posters piled on to Mom of 5 for wanting to protect her daughter from sexual behavior/advances that might be detrimental to her well being, and then it turned into a debate about the prevalance of rape in college and the military, which would seem to imply that maybe young women/teenage girls need more support and (dare I say it?) protection than they are currently getting.

I think the reason they "piled on" was because she presented a viewpoint that high school (and college?) girls are delicate snowflakes who need to be protected from all those aggressive boys with only one thing on their mind. That view was wrong in 1950 and it's wrong today. It suggests that women need to be babied and men need to be viewed with suspicion from puberty onwards because you never know which one of us is out looking to rape someone.

I'm probably one of the youngest posters on this board. I graduated HS in 2010. An equal number of boys and girls knew exactly what they were doing regarding sexual activity.


I went to high school too and it wasn't in the 1950's.  What I remember is the kids whose parents were involved made better decisions, on average, than those whose parents weren't.  It's possible for parents to take things too far, of course, and be over controlling, but in general parents have more wisdom than their 16 year olds do.  Therefore, they get a say in who their kids date, associate with, what activities they take part in, and what time they need to be home by.

The gender equality posters piled on because Mom to 5 isn't raising her kids the way THEY think she should.  Does anybody see the double standard there?  Maybe instead they could give her the benefit of the doubt, since she is a woman, and a mom, raising daughters, that maybe she isn't looking to repress herself or anybody else, and is instead truly looking out for her daughter's best interests in a balanced way.

Gin1984

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #118 on: March 14, 2014, 01:08:28 PM »
This thread has an interesting dichotomy.  Multiple posters piled on to Mom of 5 for wanting to protect her daughter from sexual behavior/advances that might be detrimental to her well being, and then it turned into a debate about the prevalance of rape in college and the military, which would seem to imply that maybe young women/teenage girls need more support and (dare I say it?) protection than they are currently getting.
Read the article, that was NOT the conclusion by the researchers.  Actually most researchers found that the young people (men and women) that are "protected" and do not learn to handle themselves are the most targeted victims.  And really what needs to happen is these rapists need to be charged, convicted and jailed for an extremely long period of time, not a couple years, if that.

Can you please direct me to the page and paragraph that talks about parenting?  I searched for it and couldn't find it.  I also did an automated search for the word "parent" and there was only one match and that was for how they controlled for sample size.  Based on that, I think you are drawing your own unsupported conclusions. 

Also, the concept of teaching your kids to handle themselves well and screening their romantic interests aren't mutually exclusive.  It's possible to do both, or neither.

This thread has an interesting dichotomy.  Multiple posters piled on to Mom of 5 for wanting to protect her daughter from sexual behavior/advances that might be detrimental to her well being, and then it turned into a debate about the prevalance of rape in college and the military, which would seem to imply that maybe young women/teenage girls need more support and (dare I say it?) protection than they are currently getting.

I think the reason they "piled on" was because she presented a viewpoint that high school (and college?) girls are delicate snowflakes who need to be protected from all those aggressive boys with only one thing on their mind. That view was wrong in 1950 and it's wrong today. It suggests that women need to be babied and men need to be viewed with suspicion from puberty onwards because you never know which one of us is out looking to rape someone.

I'm probably one of the youngest posters on this board. I graduated HS in 2010. An equal number of boys and girls knew exactly what they were doing regarding sexual activity.


I went to high school too and it wasn't in the 1950's.  What I remember is the kids whose parents were involved made better decisions, on average, than those whose parents weren't.  It's possible for parents to take things too far, of course, and be over controlling, but in general parents have more wisdom than their 16 year olds do.  Therefore, they get a say in who their kids date, associate with, what activities they take part in, and what time they need to be home by.

The gender equality posters piled on because Mom to 5 isn't raising her kids the way THEY think she should.  Does anybody see the double standard there?  Maybe instead they could give her the benefit of the doubt, since she is a woman, and a mom, raising daughters, that maybe she isn't looking to repress herself or anybody else, and is instead truly looking out for her daughter's best interests in a balanced way.
I think you misread my post.  I said that the research and the researcher did not support the person's conclusion and then said that MOST researchers, not this current article, disagree.  I will see if I can find a bunch of those articles but I can leave you with Dr. Lisak's opinion: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/04/23/david-lisak-on-acquaintance-rapists-were-giving-a-free-pass-to-sexual-predators/
And, btw, I've been involved in this research off and on since 09, so I will respond with overarching statements that are not going to come from one article but thousands.  You are welcome to go through Dr. Lisak's CV and start reading those (though for many you will have to visit a library if you are not affiliated with a university) and get a much broader overview. 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 08:35:12 PM by Gin1984 »

Hunny156

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #119 on: March 14, 2014, 01:22:59 PM »
Getting back on topic, I saw a small segment on the news that the High school student has moved back home.  Her parents are considering this painful public chapter water under the bridge, and they would like to focus on improving their family dynamics now.

I hope they can resolve their issues and we never hear about them again...

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Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #121 on: March 25, 2014, 05:23:14 PM »
On the page I read, step-parents are also obligated.

But, yeah, this seems weird that going to college turns you legally into a child.  Because parents, divorced parents, step-parents, etc., aren't expected to give support to a kid who wants to learn a trade or work or start a business right out of high school.  Of course, that might mean a direct transfer of wealth to an individual and not to an institution, so I can see why the government wouldn't be all over that. 

And while I get the reasoning, it seems weird that a divorced parent could be forced to support a kid up to 23, but not a still-married one.

Where I live it's 18 and finished high school or emancipated for divorced parents. Some divorce agreements include payments for college but they are typically written in a way that isn't enforceable or collectible by any state agencies who collect support.