The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: QueenAlice on December 23, 2016, 07:55:09 AM
-
I was at a car dealership recently (to turn in my VW TDI as part of the buyback program) and the place was PACKED. There was a VW dealership and a Honda dealership side by side and both were filled with people buying cars. I was talking to one of the sales people and asking about how car sales differ in December vs other times of the year and a few ridiculous pieces of info came out of the conversation:
1. Some of the financing companies they use allow them to finance up to 170% of the car value they are selling
2. Their default loan length when you ask about rates is now 72 months and they are willing to go up to at least 120 months (See item 1)
But this last one...
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
-
When we looked a a car the dealership ran numbers and used 10% as the interest rate (lol) - but we asked, it turned out that was the average rate people got...
:/
-
But this last one...
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
LOL -- surely they were supposed to be told that the dealership needed to empty their lots to lower their inventory tax hit, but it got very lost in translation. :)
-
Buy this 7 year/125k extended warranty for $Yk, it's totally worth it even though you have a manufacturer warranty that covers 10/100k years. It covers everything!
-
But this last one...
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
LOL -- surely they were supposed to be told that the dealership needed to empty their lots to lower their inventory tax hit, but it got very lost in translation. :)
I see why the dealers would start the rumour that you get a giant tax hit if you have money in your bank account at the end of the year.
-
1. Some of the financing companies they use allow them to finance up to 170% of the car value they are selling
So all those people who think that they are doing great because they have rolled the old loan into the new one are really financing 170%. And presumably that is the car value at the sticker price before the customer drive it off the lot and the value becomes 60% of that.
How are they approving this nonsense?
-
The car dealership was shocked and awed that we paid cash (7K) when we bought our subcompact after taking over a lease on it from someone who was moving overseas. They asked if we'd gotten better financing than what they could offer and told us that we should seriously consider financing it through them.
Anyway it's nice to see the following type of article from Business Insider:
http://www.businessinsider.com/car-payment-keeps-you-from-building-wealth-2016-12?utm_medium=email&utm_source=flipboard
-
I actually got pretty angry the other day when i checked the mail and there was an ad from the local Dodge dealership that went like this
"COULD YOU USE AN EXTRA $12,500 THIS CHRISMAS? GET UP TO $12,500 CASH WITH YOUR NEW RAM 1500!"
How the f#$k do these people think this is an ok thing to promote? Yeah, buy a $25k+ truck so you can get another $12,500 on credit and be underwater on a completely unnecessary auto loan for the next 8 f#@king years. Damn it, i'm getting angry again.
-
oh my god
-
After graduation from my Master's program, I thought I would reward myself with a new car. I called ahead, told them what car I wanted to look at, told the guy to have it ready... and when I went there for my appointment, that guy was nowhere to be seen, no car was ready to drive and the new salesman decided to waste my time by selling me a car. Instead of starting with the car I walked in there to buy, he sat me down and started asking me what payment I could afford.
My response was essentially: "Wut?" I had been prepared to pay cash, so this backwards way of thinking didn't compute for me. I said: What terms can you offer me? It was hard to shake him off his script, though.
Then he asks, "What's wrong with your current car?"
I just stared at him and then said, "Nothing. It's old. I wanted a new one. But now that you mention it, I guess that's silly. I'll keep driving my old one." And I walked out. I ended up not buying a new car for 5 more years.
I wrote a newsletter about how buying a truck in December can save business owners on their taxes (trucks weighing more than 6,000 lbs have favorable deduction rules), which is great because you can combine it with debt-financing and year end sales and get a smoking deal on a truck. Sure, you have to pay for it eventually, but whatevs.
This topic ended up being my most popular post ever on my silly tax blog - it got probably 20 times more views than anything I've ever written about before. I got five phone calls from clients who read the newsletter and wanted to discuss this BUY TRUCKS tax strategy. I feel oddly guilty about it.
-
Instead of starting with the car I walked in there to buy, he sat me down and started asking me what payment I could afford.
My response was essentially: "Wut?" I had been prepared to pay cash, so this backwards way of thinking didn't compute for me. I said: What terms can you offer me? It was hard to shake him off his script, though.
Then he asks, "What's wrong with your current car?"
I just stared at him and then said, "Nothing. It's old. I wanted a new one. But now that you mention it, I guess that's silly. I'll keep driving my old one." And I walked out. I ended up not buying a new car for 5 more years.
I love this response!
-
In August, I went to purchase my Camry that was coming off lease. The guy says, "Hey now, what would you say if I told you I could get you a new one for less money". I said "Oh really? You can get me a new one for less than the $14k I'm buying this one for?". He went red in the face and stammered, "Um...no...I meant the payment". His reaction was if he had never had someone call him out on the price being more than just the payment. He then continued to pout and wouldn't look us in the eye the rest of the time we were there.
-
I wrote a newsletter about how buying a truck in December can save business owners on their taxes (trucks weighing more than 6,000 lbs have favorable deduction rules), which is great because you can combine it with debt-financing and year end sales and get a smoking deal on a truck. Sure, you have to pay for it eventually, but whatevs.
This topic ended up being my most popular post ever on my silly tax blog - it got probably 20 times more views than anything I've ever written about before. I got five phone calls from clients who read the newsletter and wanted to discuss this BUY TRUCKS tax strategy. I feel oddly guilty about it.
That's effin' hilarious. What's your blog? Or other tax blogs worth reading?
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
-
I read a sign in a dealership once that said,
"Why would you choose to own a depreciating asset?"
Before you all get excited the sign finished with...
"Lease it instead!"
That was the sales pitch for leasing.
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
Too funny or too sad. Maybe both.
-
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
Oh, sure -- excellent advice. Similarly, you should keep a mortgage for the tax break!
Thing is, some people don't know any better. Others are looking for any excuse to allow themselves to be "talked into" buying a new car.
-
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
Oh, sure -- excellent advice. Similarly, you should keep a mortgage for the tax break!
Thing is, some people don't know any better. Others are looking for any excuse to allow themselves to be "talked into" buying a new car.
But it still doesn't make sense. You DO actually get a tax break for mortgage interest.
But the government doesn't tax you on your bank balance. There is no tax hit for having money in the bank.
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
Too funny or too sad. Maybe both.
I bought a sweet, nearly new Scion that was supposed to be $12,800 out the door. Since the salesman was waffling on the exactness of the $12.8k figure, I got tired of his games and introduced myself to the financing guy, who actually handles the details of transactions at this dealer. I explained that, if we still were in agreement, that I was heading down the street to a branch of my bank, to generate a certified check for that amount. He tried several versions of, "why would you want to use your money when mine is soooo much.......smarter, cheaper, easier, etc" I grew tired of this shit, and politely told him I was heading for the bank. His final comment was, "you're really going to do this to me, aren't you?" He was genuinely amazed and beaten at his game, when he had to admit that a customer wasn't leaving with a loan.
-
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
Oh, sure -- excellent advice. Similarly, you should keep a mortgage for the tax break!
Thing is, some people don't know any better. Others are looking for any excuse to allow themselves to be "talked into" buying a new car.
But it still doesn't make sense. You DO actually get a tax break for mortgage interest.
But the government doesn't tax you on your bank balance. There is no tax hit for having money in the bank.
Some trucks are tax deductible depending on whether it's a work truck or not (this is one reason you see a lot of farmer types with fancy trucks).
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
Too funny or too sad. Maybe both.
I bought a sweet, nearly new Scion that was supposed to be $12,800 out the door. Since the salesman was waffling on the exactness of the $12.8k figure, I got tired of his games and introduced myself to the financing guy, who actually handles the details of transactions at this dealer. I explained that, if we still were in agreement, that I was heading down the street to a branch of my bank, to generate a certified check for that amount. He tried several versions of, "why would you want to use your money when mine is soooo much.......smarter, cheaper, easier, etc" I grew tired of this shit, and politely told him I was heading for the bank. His final comment was, "you're really going to do this to me, aren't you?" He was genuinely amazed and beaten at his game, when he had to admit that a customer wasn't leaving with a loan.
Buying a car for cash might as well be taking food from his children you evil creature.
-
Most dealerships are total trash. There are a few decent ones out there, but are hard to find.
My least favorite thing has to be the current ad Kia is running on the radio and tv - purchase a new car, and "no payments till Spring 2017." Way to make sure that you're even MORE underwater on a new car.
There have been several articles detailing the rise of auto loans, car payment increases (avg is somewhere around $500/mo now, IIRC), and the fact that many of the loans written are subprime. I think it's a bubble that will burst soon enough - not as catastrophic as the housing crash, but not without consequences.
-
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
Oh, sure -- excellent advice. Similarly, you should keep a mortgage for the tax break!
Thing is, some people don't know any better. Others are looking for any excuse to allow themselves to be "talked into" buying a new car.
But it still doesn't make sense. You DO actually get a tax break for mortgage interest.
But the government doesn't tax you on your bank balance. There is no tax hit for having money in the bank.
I don't believe those two statements are completely true.
In the US, you get a tax deduction for your home mortgage interest if you itemize your deductions. But unless you have a REALLY expensive house or you have a lot of other deductions that, in total, are bigger than the very generous standard deduction, you won't get any deduction for your mortgage interest.
And private individuals won't be taxed on your bank balance by the Feds. But if they can buy something and classify it as a business expense, they won't pay taxes on the business income that paid for that item. It's like getting a tax rate discount on the purchase. Of course, that only benefits them if they needed to buy the item anyway. Otherwise they just bought something they didn't need and didn't really save money.
Also, some states have taxes on property (and I don't mean land or cars). I don't know whether any of them tax cash in the bank.
-
I had an odd experience when I bought my Altima three years ago, about 7 months before finding MMM. The finance guy pushed the extended warranty like he is mandated by his management, which I refused, then he started talking finance rates. I told him it would be a cash deal. He tells me that the rebates are only good if I finance through Nissan, at least 75% of the purchase price. So I hemmed and hawed about taking out a loan. Here is the odd part that I would never had expected from a dealership finance guy. He pulls up VTSAX over the past 5 years and shows me the growth rate, says the loan is only 1%, and explains opportunity costs of 1% vs the rate of return against VTSAX.
I did finance the car, but only made the required 3 months payments, the last one being a big one. I understand the math, but just can't stand having a loan on something that is guaranteed to lose value.
Last week the local Honda dealer sent me something in the mail stating that they can absolutely lower my monthly payment if I trade the Altima in for an Accord. I've toyed with the idea of going down there and see how they can do that, just to make them work a bit. But that would be a dickhead move, and I'm still very satisfied with my Altima.
-
Some trucks are tax deductible depending on whether it's a work truck or not (this is one reason you see a lot of farmer types with fancy trucks).
Or tradies, but the ATO is cracking down on people taking advantage of this.
"There is a rumour that the ATO goes to the footy at the weekend and checks the number plates of all the utes because it is a giveaway that they are being used for private use."
http://www.smh.com.au/business/ato-cracks-down-on-utes-after-helping-make-hilux-a-best-seller-20160209-gmpevq.html
-
I had an odd experience when I bought my Altima three years ago, about 7 months before finding MMM. The finance guy pushed the extended warranty like he is mandated by his management, which I refused, then he started talking finance rates. I told him it would be a cash deal. He tells me that the rebates are only good if I finance through Nissan, at least 75% of the purchase price. So I hemmed and hawed about taking out a loan. Here is the odd part that I would never had expected from a dealership finance guy. He pulls up VTSAX over the past 5 years and shows me the growth rate, says the loan is only 1%, and explains opportunity costs of 1% vs the rate of return against VTSAX.
That's pretty impressive that he did that!
-
The car dealership was shocked and awed that we paid cash (7K) when we bought our subcompact after taking over a lease on it from someone who was moving overseas. They asked if we'd gotten better financing than what they could offer and told us that we should seriously consider financing it through them.
Anyway it's nice to see the following type of article from Business Insider:
http://www.businessinsider.com/car-payment-keeps-you-from-building-wealth-2016-12?utm_medium=email&utm_source=flipboard
We had a similar experience buying my car. We turned down the dealer financing offer but when we came back with the cashier's check and pick up the car the financing guy asked what rate the credit union had given us. We stared blankly until it registered and said they didn't.
-
The car dealership was shocked and awed that we paid cash (7K) when we bought our subcompact after taking over a lease on it from someone who was moving overseas. They asked if we'd gotten better financing than what they could offer and told us that we should seriously consider financing it through them.
Anyway it's nice to see the following type of article from Business Insider:
http://www.businessinsider.com/car-payment-keeps-you-from-building-wealth-2016-12?utm_medium=email&utm_source=flipboard
We had a similar experience buying my car. We turned down the dealer financing offer but when we came back with the cashier's check and pick up the car the financing guy asked what rate the credit union had given us. We stared blankly until it registered and said they didn't.
They just don't get it. Poor fecks who work there are probably in the same boat themselves, and are likely brainwashed.
-
But it still doesn't make sense. You DO actually get a tax break for mortgage interest.
But the government doesn't tax you on your bank balance. There is no tax hit for having money in the bank.
The point: Both statements show a lack of understanding of how finances work.
We had a similar experience buying my car. We turned down the dealer financing offer but when we came back with the cashier's check and pick up the car the financing guy asked what rate the credit union had given us. We stared blankly until it registered and said they didn't.
Reminds me of the salesperson who called me some time back: I can get your a better rate on your mortgage ... I seriously doubt it ... What's your rate? .... Zero; I have no mortgage ... Well, this is your lucky day; we can help you buy a house ... I own a house ... But you just said ... Yeah, I own the house -- lock, stock and barrel -- so you're not going to get me a better rate ... WHY ARE YOU YELLING AT ME? ... Huh? I'm not yelling. Seriously, poor guy was almost crying because he couldn't understand someone who actually owns a house.
-
I have been sitting on this image for a while, but this is the perfect place for it.
Dealerships, where they have all your payment needs!
-
There's a dealership in town that says on the radio "we'll find you a car you can afford, just make the darn payments." They say that in the most sincere way. It's a commercial targeted at bad credit folks who simply need a set of wheels and they dealership won't pressure them into something they can't afford.
A few years ago I was buying a new vehicle (facepunch-worthy event at the time) and the financing guy slide a piece of paper across the desk with a loan offer. I slid another piece of paper back at him with a quote from my credit union. He looked at it, smiled, and said "yep, I'm not going to beat that." I always find it amusing when you can humble or shut up a loan salesman. Last year the loan officer at the dealership for my current car was practically relieved when I told him I was paying cash. It was a ton of paperwork he didn't have to do, but I wonder if that relief was simply because we were getting near closing time.
-
I had a great dealer experience when buying my last car. (actually the only new car my DW and me ever owned).
Step 1. Go online, configure car as we'd like it.
Step 2. Pay a $2000 deposit.
Step 3. Get email that our order is confirmed
Step 4. Get email that our car is being produced
Step 5. Get eamil that our car is in transit.
Step 6. Get phone call to arrange pickup and registration details.
And finally show up on location, hand over cheque for the car. Get the keys and have the cellphone setup and drive home. Take a big detour and show the car to our families.
Best experience ever.
-
I briefly dated a guy who used to be a car salesman. I forget the conversation, but I was talking about the total cost of a car purchase. He said no one cared about the cost, only the monthly payments. In the 2 years he sold cars no one ever negotiated for the final price.
When I bought my last car I used the credit union's car buying program and got a 0.49% rate. The car buying program involved a prenegotiated price. I went to the internet sales guy at my time slot with my check in hand, drove the car, went to finish paperwork. He still tried to convince me to use their financing. He couldn't beat the rate. Tried to sell me on the extended warranty since I said I was going to own it until it died. I refused.
Fast forward a year and I started getting calls almost weekly to sell the car back and get the newest model year for the same payment. Then around the 3 year mark I started getting weekly calls to buy the extended warranty. I have so many phone numbers blocked. Obviously people fall for it or they wouldn't do it.
I took out a 60 month loan and my payment was close to $500/ mo. I had statefarm insurance for a while and the receptionist there was convinced that my payment was too high...no way a payment should be that high on their loan. I said there was no way she could beat the payment unless it was 0% interest or they extended the term. I'm pretty sure it was the latter. I left that agency soon after that call because they kept jacking my home owners more than the state approved rate.
I had the car paid off around the 2.5 year mark. Since then I haven't gotten anyone promising to lower my payments.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
We bought a Honda Fit a few years ago and had a similar experience as other posters here. The car was only $9,000 yet they relentlessly pushed financing when we told them we were going to pay with a bank check. The finance guy tried to talk us into financing by telling us that is was risky for us to use our cash for the car in case of emergency. When we told him that the $9k only represented less than 3 months of net savings he looked confused and said "what are you doing buying a car like this"? And then showed us a pamphlet for some $40,000 SUV. He also tried to sell us an extended warranty and said we could finance it for 0% interest.
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this. Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork. Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer. Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
-
I briefly dated a guy who used to be a car salesman. I forget the conversation, but I was talking about the total cost of a car purchase. He said no one cared about the cost, only the monthly payments. In the 2 years he sold cars no one ever negotiated for the final price.
That was a major pain point when I was buying my car ten years ago. Took me ages to get the car salesman to quote an actual price.
He kept repeating the monthly payment amount and giving lower and lower amounts, presumably at longer terms. Very hard to convince him I didn't care about the monthly payment even though I was going to finance the car.
At the end I had to pull out an actual calculator and say 'OK give me the interest rate and I'll figure out the price and then we'll talk.'
We bought a new Honda CR-V back in 2003 when the new model came out. The first dealership kept pulling that same crap with the piece of paper with the four squares on it, and wouldn't give us an actual price. When the guy asked us how much we could afford to pay each month, I said, "You mean, what's left over after all our other expenses? Around $2500/month." That just confused him. I gave up and we went to the next dealer, who realized instantly that we were in the Internet age, gave us a good price on the trade-in and a good price on the CR-V. Deal done and out the door within an hour.
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this. Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork. Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer. Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
Indeed, just one more government evil. What LiveLean did is called structuring payments, so each transaction is under the limit. Making a >$10k transaction is not illegal but you may become a victim of civil asset forfeiture if you do this even when documented as the government mandates. It's just another tax, government stealing your money, but it's a hidden tax on a subset of the population. In most cases you'll spend more for lawyers trying to get your money back than you 'll get back, if you get anything back at all. It's all very arbitrary, as government violence typically it. In any event, structuring payments is a crime and I believe it's applicable to transfers over $10k in either a 30 day period or a calendar month... I forget which.
-
In this case it would not be structuring. He simply did what the dealership required. Structuring requires intent.
-
It was also $10k cash + $5.8k check. I believe the problem is with amounts > $10k. You run afoul if you make 1 cash payment of $10k and another cash payment of $5.8k. That's attempting to go around the cash payment rules. Cash+check is not. There was not more than $10k cash, so ... it's legal with no paperwork.
But yes, it's dumb.
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this. Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork. Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer. Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
Indeed, just one more government evil. What LiveLean did is called structuring payments, so each transaction is under the limit. Making a >$10k transaction is not illegal but you may become a victim of civil asset forfeiture if you do this even when documented as the government mandates. It's just another tax, government stealing your money, but it's a hidden tax on a subset of the population. In most cases you'll spend more for lawyers trying to get your money back than you 'll get back, if you get anything back at all. It's all very arbitrary, as government violence typically it. In any event, structuring payments is a crime and I believe it's applicable to transfers over $10k in either a 30 day period or a calendar month... I forget which.
Nice xmas reading, peace on Earth, and goodwill to all in the new American police state:
(and sorry for getting off the thread topic)
https://www.aclu.org/blog/easy-money-civil-asset-forfeiture-abuse-police
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141214/11540529440/irs-drops-its-asset-forfeiture-case-against-owner-small-cash-only-restaurant.shtml
-
I just received a phone call stating that a dealership would like to purchase my wife's car back and get her into a brand new model for the same payment or less!
-
One of my life goals is to never buy a car from a dealership every again. I have done this once in my life and it was one time too many.
-
I briefly dated a guy who used to be a car salesman. I forget the conversation, but I was talking about the total cost of a car purchase. He said no one cared about the cost, only the monthly payments. In the 2 years he sold cars no one ever negotiated for the final price.
There was an Edmunds writer a few years ago who worked at several dealerships undercover and reported back that all the salesmen were trained specifically to only talk about the monthly payments and redirect the buyer from any other figures.
-
I briefly dated a guy who used to be a car salesman. I forget the conversation, but I was talking about the total cost of a car purchase. He said no one cared about the cost, only the monthly payments. In the 2 years he sold cars no one ever negotiated for the final price.
There was an Edmunds writer a few years ago who worked at several dealerships undercover and reported back that all the salesmen were trained specifically to only talk about the monthly payments and redirect the buyer from any other figures.
This is absolutely the case. This is the whole "4 square worksheet" goal. Confound the buyer on the monthly price while moving numbers around to bump up the bottom line.
-
I recently purchased a car and I was surprised not to get the financing sell. The salesman actually assumed it was a cash purchase when filling out the agreement.
Though in the Financing office I got the "here's the price, and for people who keep cars a long time, most people get the extended warranty...so let me add that right here..and..."
I quickly saved him the trouble
-
I briefly dated a guy who used to be a car salesman. I forget the conversation, but I was talking about the total cost of a car purchase. He said no one cared about the cost, only the monthly payments. In the 2 years he sold cars no one ever negotiated for the final price.
There was an Edmunds writer a few years ago who worked at several dealerships undercover and reported back that all the salesmen were trained specifically to only talk about the monthly payments and redirect the buyer from any other figures.
I remember ready that, it was a great piece he wrote. It was amazing to hear about the high volume import dealer salesmen that bragged about bringing in crazy amounts like $25k/m selling cars for way over value to clueless customers
-
I heard a dealership radio ad that said "Buy a (blah) car from us and get up to $1500 cash back to pay for Christmas!" Me: "They - they know that doesn't make any sense, right?"
-
I heard a dealership radio ad that said "Buy a (blah) car from us and get up to $1500 cash back to pay for Christmas!" Me: "They - they know that doesn't make any sense, right?"
But, but, our entire consumer dynamic is built on spending money in order to "save."
-
I briefly dated a guy who used to be a car salesman. I forget the conversation, but I was talking about the total cost of a car purchase. He said no one cared about the cost, only the monthly payments. In the 2 years he sold cars no one ever negotiated for the final price.
There was an Edmunds writer a few years ago who worked at several dealerships undercover and reported back that all the salesmen were trained specifically to only talk about the monthly payments and redirect the buyer from any other figures.
Interesting. It appears that Edmunds has taken down that story and redirected the link to something much less comprehensive. This blog has the original article as a pdf. I found it to be very interesting and required it when I taught a college personal finance class:
http://www.dougsrepublic.com/PDF/carsalesman.pdf (http://www.dougsrepublic.com/PDF/carsalesman.pdf)
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
I would have ran out of that place like the building was on fire.
-
I think I posted this story already some time ago, but speaking of dealer financing I went into my local Toyota dealer sometime last year because I spotted a freshly traded in 2013 Matrix (was dirty and didn't have dealer signs in the windows, but also no licence plates = just traded in). Salesman said they wanted $17k which was WAY too much for it, like $5 or $6k too much. So the salesman asked if i paid cash or financed the 06 Hyundai i drove up in, i told him i paid cash. He asked if i planned to pay cash or finance the Matrix, i said "at $17k? neither." and walked away. During the conversation with the salesman we ended up walking into the showroom, and as I left the two trucks inside caught my eye. One was a Tacoma, that had 2 brand new dirtbikes in the back, and one was a Tundra that had a new kayak on the roof and 2 new high-end mountain bikes on a trailer hitch. All of the toys had signs on them saying "INCLUDE WITH YOUR FINANCING!!!). Yeah right.
-
Man this is all so true... Ive worked in the automotive industry for over 12yrs and being around some of these peoples is horrible.
It's ALL about making a profit, in every way possible. The people with any morals usually don't last long and it's inevitable that they'll be replace with a crook/thief.
I work in the service side of things and there have been many times that I've handwritten on the back of the RO's that "I don't/didn't recommend this repair" or something of the sort. I have gotten into it with a few service advisors/techs because they were selling stuff the vehicle didnt need and I was against it. So they end up giving the car to a shit technician who only cares about hours and doesn't give two fucks about morals or honesty.
Its funny because they only last a few years and the customers quickly realize their bs, so they jump from store to store. I've a good amount of return customers who ask for me by name and will work around my schedule. Funny how honesty works in your favor.
I hate this industry but I truly enjoy fixing cars and the positive impact a good relationship with the owners can be/is.
One day I'll open my own shop... Sigh...
Let me know if you need capital and/or a partner. I'm semi-serious. :)
-
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
Oh, sure -- excellent advice. Similarly, you should keep a mortgage for the tax break!
Thing is, some people don't know any better. Others are looking for any excuse to allow themselves to be "talked into" buying a new car.
But it still doesn't make sense. You DO actually get a tax break for mortgage interest.
But the government doesn't tax you on your bank balance. There is no tax hit for having money in the bank.
I don't believe those two statements are completely true.
In the US, you get a tax deduction for your home mortgage interest if you itemize your deductions. But unless you have a REALLY expensive house or you have a lot of other deductions that, in total, are bigger than the very generous standard deduction, you won't get any deduction for your mortgage interest.
And private individuals won't be taxed on your bank balance by the Feds. But if they can buy something and classify it as a business expense, they won't pay taxes on the business income that paid for that item. It's like getting a tax rate discount on the purchase. Of course, that only benefits them if they needed to buy the item anyway. Otherwise they just bought something they didn't need and didn't really save money.
Also, some states have taxes on property (and I don't mean land or cars). I don't know whether any of them tax cash in the bank.
As a single person with no kids, I've exceeded the standard deduction every year since I bought my house (in a LCOL area, no less).
-
Sharing some of my favorite dealership anecdotes:
As a kid, watching Dad go buy cars at the dealership. The salesperson would always ask him how much he was looking to pay, and my Dad would reply, Ten Dollars. After a few rounds of this, they would leave him alone to look at the cars, and then he would negotiate forever, before pulling out the ad in the Pennysaver that made him come look in the first place. He was a repeat buyer, so eventually, the salespeople would pretty much give in to whatever was remotely reasonable for them. Dad wore them down! :)
As a young adult, trying to buy my first used car. The eager salesperson kept pushing me to buy a new Kia, when the brand was newly introduced in the US. Gorgeous cars, no doubt, but I had been clear on wanting a reliable used car. After letting him do his spiel, I asked him to show me a 10 year old Kia in good mechanical condition. He was so annoyed, he just walked away. I did not buy a car from this dealership.
Newly married, going shopping with another newly married couple that was pregnant and decided they wanted a minivan. Hubby and the other couple's hubby worked at the same company, both in sales. These type of interactions are always fun, everyone knows the tactics and what they are called. Friends were not interested in the monthly payment, they wanted the OTD price. Sales guy refused to provide anything other than the monthly payment and the length of the contract, so we pulled the calculator and kept showing him that his math was getting worse, not better. At one point, my hubby was pointing out that we were the only people in the showroom on a Saturday afternoon, but they ignored where we were going with that comment. Then the other hubby told the sales guy how much the payment needed to be, along with the length of the contract, and the sales guy balked. Best line ever from our friend. That's OK, you can give it to me at this price, just screw over the next guy! We still laugh at that to this day. Needless to say, no deals were made that day, and a few months later, the dealership was out of business.
-
Sharing some of my favorite dealership anecdotes:
Best line ever from our friend. That's OK, you can give it to me at this price, just screw over the next guy!
Something like that happened when with my father years ago. I remember my parents getting a HELOC to do some home renovations and buy a new vehicle. He walked into the dealership with a bank check for $12k. That's what he had to spend. Not a penny more. After what seemed a couple hours of haggling with the salesman the senior salesman/manager came up to us and said something like "I have the authority to take the difference of what you're paying and we want for the truck and add it to the price of another vehicle." For all these years it just sounded like my dad negotiated like a boss, but your remark makes me think there was a darker side to the transaction.
-
I briefly dated a guy who used to be a car salesman. I forget the conversation, but I was talking about the total cost of a car purchase. He said no one cared about the cost, only the monthly payments. In the 2 years he sold cars no one ever negotiated for the final price.
There was an Edmunds writer a few years ago who worked at several dealerships undercover and reported back that all the salesmen were trained specifically to only talk about the monthly payments and redirect the buyer from any other figures.
Interesting. It appears that Edmunds has taken down that story and redirected the link to something much less comprehensive. This blog has the original article as a pdf. I found it to be very interesting and required it when I taught a college personal finance class:
http://www.dougsrepublic.com/PDF/carsalesman.pdf (http://www.dougsrepublic.com/PDF/carsalesman.pdf)
I really enjoyed this article. As an aside, this line was quite funny:
One thing I discovered was that car salesmen are easy marks for anyone selling things. That's because they are always hanging around — they're a captive audience.
-
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier. A business exist to make money for the owner. If that were not true, none of you would be on this forum because smoke signals don't work well on the internet :)
Most people are not very smart (in general) and most people's FI-Q is low to non-existent. For the rest of us, we take no interest loans.
-
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier. A business exist to make money for the owner.
Nope, I think businesses exist solely for me to mock them.
-
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier. A business exist to make money for the owner.
Nope, I think businesses exist solely for me to mock them.
In which case they won't stay in business long :)
And you will have to find something else to mock (not that there is a shortage).
-
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier. A business exist to make money for the owner.
Nope, I think businesses exist solely for me to mock them.
In which case they won't stay in business long :)
And you will have to find something else to mock (not that there is a shortage).
Oh, I fully acknowledge that in their story they exist to make money; but in my story they exist for my amusement. I mean how many people can be convinced to replace a perfectly serviceable car every year, or to pay outrageous interest to have said car now rather than next year.
The dealers will run out of fools to sell to before I run out of things to mock.
-
Someone's comment about buying a Fit for <$10 prompted me to look at our local Honda dealer's website. I went to sort by price (as I always do)....only to find that you can't.
-
Someone's comment about buying a Fit for <$10 prompted me to look at our local Honda dealer's website. I went to sort by price (as I always do)....only to find that you can't.
Fortunately, there are more dealers than that one...so you can.
(http://i.imgur.com/e6aq6AJ.png)
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this. Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork. Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer. Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
I was paying by check. I didn't literally walk in with cash.
-
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier. A business exist to make money for the owner.
Nope, I think businesses exist solely for me to mock them.
In which case they won't stay in business long :)
And you will have to find something else to mock (not that there is a shortage).
Oh, I fully acknowledge that in their story they exist to make money; but in my story they exist for my amusement. I mean how many people can be convinced to replace a perfectly serviceable car every year, or to pay outrageous interest to have said car now rather than next year.
The dealers will run out of fools to sell to before I run out of things to mock.
Nope. There's a sucker born every minute.
And you will never run out of fools or dealers to mock.
The world is full of everlasting bastards.
-
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier. A business exist to make money for the owner. If that were not true, none of you would be on this forum because smoke signals don't work well on the internet :)
Most people are not very smart (in general) and most people's FI-Q is low to non-existent. For the rest of us, we take no interest loans.
There is a difference between existing to make money, and in ripping people off. The only reason car dealerships are not given a smack down for their illicit practices is because they have an inordinate amount of political sway given that car dealerships are often the largest, most profitable businesses in a community and dealerships as a whole are often a heavyweight at the state level (and thus can afford the bribes that get them their way). It's why, for example, it is still law that you can't buy a car directly from a car manufacturer despite that once reasonable idea no longer being anything but a way to provide useless middlemen (dealerships for new cars) with something to do.
-
84 MONTH FINANCING ON NEW CARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
radio add says 200 bucks a month on a new car for 84 MONTHS
this is just insane how long til you are actually ahead money in the car. its the big short only not as much money in the game as the mortgage bubble. but i feel a car bubble coming. and i'll be there to scoop up a good deal on the large used inventory
-
Sales guy refused to provide anything other than the monthly payment and the length of the contract
Sadly this deceptive practice is present pretty much anywhere where most purchases are financed. We just bought a new construction home a few months ago and when we got to the price negotiation part the sales-droid started talking about how the amount we were trying to negotiate down was "only XX dollars a month!" with the implication that we were in some way "wrong" for trying to get the price down.
When the guy did that we informed him that we were "actual price sort of folks and can't sign at the price you are asking" and walked out. A couple days later he calls up and offers us what we asked for. Standard negotiation stuff really, but I was amazed when he actually apologized for trying to "talk payment". I damn near hit the floor. I can only assume he got reprimanded for almost costing the deal. Not sure if the guy had a care sales background or if this practice is now common in new home sales.
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this. Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork. Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer. Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
This is true only of currency transactions. If "cash" is a check, then the 10k limit doesn't apply. This is a case of the dealership not understanding the difference between cash equivalents (a check) and currency transactions.
ETA: I typed in the wrong spot looking like my reply was Spork's comment. Fixed.
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
This is true only of currency transactions. If "cash" is a check, then the 10k limit doesn't apply. This is a case of the dealership not understanding the difference between cash equivalents (a check) and currency transactions.
Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this. Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork. Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer. Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
It's one of literally hundreds of federal government policies that actively penalize entrepreneurs and small businesses in rural areas.
One of the great things about cash is that you used to be able to use it anywhere. You used to be able to open up a coffee shop or diner in the middle of nowhere near the side of a highway. As long as you had a cistern or similar supply of clean running water and perhaps a propane or gas tank to hook up to the stove, you could cook and serve customers all day long. You didn't need a telephone line, you didn't need an Internet connection, you didn't need all the whizbang technology that's supposed to make everything "easier", and you most assuredly didn't need to be within a short drive of the nearest bank. In short, you didn't need to buy into an infrastructure that now constitutes a barrier to entry for new businesses.
Nowadays, cash-only businesses are penalized and over-regulated because of civil forfeiture and other anti-cash policies. Fact is, communications infrastructure is nowhere near as well developed in the United States as it is in some other nations, outside of the major urban centers. Since there's been strong resistance to government initiatives to connect people in rural areas, there are still people who are not, and have never been, on the electrical grid or on the phone system. Such individuals still need to earn an income and to do business, and back before cash was anathema it used to be possible to do that.
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
This is true only of currency transactions. If "cash" is a check, then the 10k limit doesn't apply. This is a case of the dealership not understanding the difference between cash equivalents (a check) and currency transactions.
Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this. Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork. Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer. Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
It's one of literally hundreds of federal government policies that actively penalize entrepreneurs and small businesses in rural areas.
One of the great things about cash is that you used to be able to use it anywhere. You used to be able to open up a coffee shop or diner in the middle of nowhere near the side of a highway. As long as you had a cistern or similar supply of clean running water and perhaps a propane or gas tank to hook up to the stove, you could cook and serve customers all day long. You didn't need a telephone line, you didn't need an Internet connection, you didn't need all the whizbang technology that's supposed to make everything "easier", and you most assuredly didn't need to be within a short drive of the nearest bank. In short, you didn't need to buy into an infrastructure that now constitutes a barrier to entry for new businesses.
Nowadays, cash-only businesses are penalized and over-regulated because of civil forfeiture and other anti-cash policies. Fact is, communications infrastructure is nowhere near as well developed in the United States as it is in some other nations, outside of the major urban centers. Since there's been strong resistance to government initiatives to connect people in rural areas, there are still people who are not, and have never been, on the electrical grid or on the phone system. Such individuals still need to earn an income and to do business, and back before cash was anathema it used to be possible to do that.
The requirement to file a Currency Transaction Report is on the financial institution, not the individual or company requesting the transaction. Could you explain how this is "actively penalizing entrepreneurs and small businesses"?
-
When I last bought a new car in 2010, the dealer would not let me pay cash. There was no rebate contingent on financing a chunk of it. Apparently paying cash for a car had become so uncommon at this dealership that their computer system no longer allowed it -- or so they said.
The car, after trade-in, was $15,800. They said the maximum I could pay at that time was $10,000. They said I could pay the rest on my second visit.
So I stroked a check for $10,000, drove the new car to lunch, then returned and paid $5,800.
Unbelievable.
This is true only of currency transactions. If "cash" is a check, then the 10k limit doesn't apply. This is a case of the dealership not understanding the difference between cash equivalents (a check) and currency transactions.
Actually, you can thank the Federal government for this. Any cash transaction greater than $10k requires a volume of paperwork. Apparently, if you have a stack of cash, you're either a drug dealer or a money launderer. Most businesses decided they didn't want to mess with the pain of the paperwork.
It's one of literally hundreds of federal government policies that actively penalize entrepreneurs and small businesses in rural areas.
One of the great things about cash is that you used to be able to use it anywhere. You used to be able to open up a coffee shop or diner in the middle of nowhere near the side of a highway. As long as you had a cistern or similar supply of clean running water and perhaps a propane or gas tank to hook up to the stove, you could cook and serve customers all day long. You didn't need a telephone line, you didn't need an Internet connection, you didn't need all the whizbang technology that's supposed to make everything "easier", and you most assuredly didn't need to be within a short drive of the nearest bank. In short, you didn't need to buy into an infrastructure that now constitutes a barrier to entry for new businesses.
Nowadays, cash-only businesses are penalized and over-regulated because of civil forfeiture and other anti-cash policies. Fact is, communications infrastructure is nowhere near as well developed in the United States as it is in some other nations, outside of the major urban centers. Since there's been strong resistance to government initiatives to connect people in rural areas, there are still people who are not, and have never been, on the electrical grid or on the phone system. Such individuals still need to earn an income and to do business, and back before cash was anathema it used to be possible to do that.
The requirement to file a Currency Transaction Report is on the financial institution, not the individual or company requesting the transaction. Could you explain how this is "actively penalizing entrepreneurs and small businesses"?
Two ways. First, it's part of what I see as a deliberate shift away from cash and toward electronic transactions, which have the virtue of being trackable but which also require what I think of as "infrastructure": a phone line, a cell connection, etc. That kind of trend is fine for large volume businesses where it gets lost in the noise, but for a smaller business it's a bigger impact.
Second, eventually you do have to do business with a financial institution if only to pay income taxes: the IRS only started accepting cash this year and not all of the states that collect income taxes or gross receipt taxes accept cash. If financial institutions are no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt, you simply have to suck it up and make extra trips to keep the deposit amounts low, or accept the financial hit that comes with having a phone line put in or paying through the nose for satellite connectivity.
I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads. My point is that the suspicion associated with dealing in cash never seems to be directed against the big players, just the little people. Big-box companies or to retail employees making a cash drop or pulling a float are never the innocent victims. It's always the mom-and-pop businesses or an individual who just sold a car or got paid for some home repairs. We never hear of a mall employee getting clipped while making a cash drop at the bank after closing up the store. Statistically I'd expect it to happen more often.
-
I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads.
I honestly don't understand this. Sounds like communism to me that the state can just seize your assets? This is America?
We have "unexplained wealth" laws here, the Tax Office can make a tax assessment against you if you are unable to prove where your ill-gotten gains have come from (e.g. from selling cocaine).
But there is an underlying sense to that legislation, not simply the government stealing your money that you'd find in countries of a socialist bent.
-
I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads.
I honestly don't understand this. Sounds like communism to me that the state can just seize your assets? This is America?
We have "unexplained wealth" laws here, the Tax Office can make a tax assessment against you if you are unable to prove where your ill-gotten gains have come from (e.g. from selling cocaine).
But there is an underlying sense to that legislation, not simply the government stealing your money that you'd find in countries of a socialist bent.
Might I point out that there is a huge difference between communism and socialism. You don't see "socialistically bent" countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Denmark, Netherlands stealing their citizens money.
We have the same money laundering laws as everyone else. If you show up with 10 million euros the tax people are going to want to know where they came from.
Our governments don't steal our money on a whim. Sheez.
-
I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads.
I honestly don't understand this. Sounds like communism to me that the state can just seize your assets? This is America?
Sad, but true. Not only do they take cash, they have now also started forcing people to give them their debit card PIN and sucking as much money as possible from their account as they sit by the side of the road.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/
-
Two ways. First, it's part of what I see as a deliberate shift away from cash and toward electronic transactions, which have the virtue of being trackable but which also require what I think of as "infrastructure": a phone line, a cell connection, etc. That kind of trend is fine for large volume businesses where it gets lost in the noise, but for a smaller business it's a bigger impact.
Second, eventually you do have to do business with a financial institution if only to pay income taxes: the IRS only started accepting cash this year and not all of the states that collect income taxes or gross receipt taxes accept cash. If financial institutions are no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt, you simply have to suck it up and make extra trips to keep the deposit amounts low, or accept the financial hit that comes with having a phone line put in or paying through the nose for satellite connectivity.
I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads. My point is that the suspicion associated with dealing in cash never seems to be directed against the big players, just the little people. Big-box companies or to retail employees making a cash drop or pulling a float are never the innocent victims. It's always the mom-and-pop businesses or an individual who just sold a car or got paid for some home repairs. We never hear of a mall employee getting clipped while making a cash drop at the bank after closing up the store. Statistically I'd expect it to happen more often.
That's...not how it works. That's also called structuring (https://www.money-education.com/resources/financial-planning-news-and-blogs/blog/129-structuring-cash-transactions-under-10-000-is-criminal), and is illegal.
If you have an example of a business that was refused business by a financial institution because they routinely legally deposited over $10k in cash, I'd love to see it.
-
this is just insane how long til you are actually ahead money in the car. its the big short only not as much money in the game as the mortgage bubble. but i feel a car bubble coming. and i'll be there to scoop up a good deal on the large used inventory
I like the way you think!
-
I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think businesses exist to make their lives easier. A business exist to make money for the owner.
Nope, I think businesses exist solely for me to mock them.
In which case they won't stay in business long :)
And you will have to find something else to mock (not that there is a shortage).
Oh, I fully acknowledge that in their story they exist to make money; but in my story they exist for my amusement. I mean how many people can be convinced to replace a perfectly serviceable car every year, or to pay outrageous interest to have said car now rather than next year.
The dealers will run out of fools to sell to before I run out of things to mock.
A majority :) They aren't really looking for convincing, they are looking for agreement.
-
Sales guy refused to provide anything other than the monthly payment and the length of the contract
Sadly this deceptive practice is present pretty much anywhere where most purchases are financed. We just bought a new construction home a few months ago and when we got to the price negotiation part the sales-droid started talking about how the amount we were trying to negotiate down was "only XX dollars a month!" with the implication that we were in some way "wrong" for trying to get the price down.
When the guy did that we informed him that we were "actual price sort of folks and can't sign at the price you are asking" and walked out. A couple days later he calls up and offers us what we asked for. Standard negotiation stuff really, but I was amazed when he actually apologized for trying to "talk payment". I damn near hit the floor. I can only assume he got reprimanded for almost costing the deal. Not sure if the guy had a care sales background or if this practice is now common in new home sales.
I think this is getting to be more common in new home sales. I noticed the new home model is very much base price and now we will send you to the "upsell" finishing department where your options can add on $10,000+ to the home. Oh and you already signed the I'm buying the house for the base price piece of paper. In the end they will tell you at the upsell department that over 30 years the $4,000 floor upgrade is only $3 a month extra on your mortgage.
-
In the end they will tell you at the upsell department that over 30 years the $4,000 floor upgrade is only $3 a month extra on your mortgage.
That might not be such a bad deal, to get a $4000 upgrade for only $1080 in payments spread over 30 years...
-
In the end they will tell you at the upsell department that over 30 years the $4,000 floor upgrade is only $3 a month extra on your mortgage.
That might not be such a bad deal, to get a $4000 upgrade for only $1080 in payments spread over 30 years...
Balloon payment. ;)
-
Two ways. First, it's part of what I see as a deliberate shift away from cash and toward electronic transactions, which have the virtue of being trackable but which also require what I think of as "infrastructure": a phone line, a cell connection, etc. That kind of trend is fine for large volume businesses where it gets lost in the noise, but for a smaller business it's a bigger impact.
Second, eventually you do have to do business with a financial institution if only to pay income taxes: the IRS only started accepting cash this year and not all of the states that collect income taxes or gross receipt taxes accept cash. If financial institutions are no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt, you simply have to suck it up and make extra trips to keep the deposit amounts low, or accept the financial hit that comes with having a phone line put in or paying through the nose for satellite connectivity.
I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads. My point is that the suspicion associated with dealing in cash never seems to be directed against the big players, just the little people. Big-box companies or to retail employees making a cash drop or pulling a float are never the innocent victims. It's always the mom-and-pop businesses or an individual who just sold a car or got paid for some home repairs. We never hear of a mall employee getting clipped while making a cash drop at the bank after closing up the store. Statistically I'd expect it to happen more often.
That's...not how it works. That's also called structuring (https://www.money-education.com/resources/financial-planning-news-and-blogs/blog/129-structuring-cash-transactions-under-10-000-is-criminal), and is illegal.
If you have an example of a business that was refused business by a financial institution because they routinely legally deposited over $10k in cash, I'd love to see it.
Here you go. 100% legal, and the bank refuses to do business.
https://www.greendot.com/content/docs/GreenDotRewardsDAA.pdf
(https://www.greendot.com/content/docs/GreenDotRewardsDAA.pdf)
Green Dot is a smaller bank, but they spell their policy out in black and white, and they set their cutoff substantially below $10k.
Here banks are just plain refusing to handle transactions for a business that is perfectly legal in their state.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/us/banks-say-no-to-marijuana-money-legal-or-not.html
(https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/us/banks-say-no-to-marijuana-money-legal-or-not.html)
But at least the pot growers were luckier than these folks.
This one had some IRS trouble involving LESS than $10k in cash deposits.
https://www.rt.com/usa/199883-irs-structuring-civil-asset-forfeiture/
(https://www.rt.com/usa/199883-irs-structuring-civil-asset-forfeiture/)
Here a lady followed her banker's instructions and made roughly one deposit per week from her cash-only restaurant, to stay under the $10,000 limit. Note that this was at the bank's request.
http://www.wnd.com/2014/10/irs-seizes-life-savings-for-deposits-under-10000/
(http://www.wnd.com/2014/10/irs-seizes-life-savings-for-deposits-under-10000/)
This time they backed down and decided that a restaurant owner who did weekly deposits instead of carrying cash around shouldn't have her assets seized, but look what it did to her.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141214/11540529440/irs-drops-its-asset-forfeiture-case-against-owner-small-cash-only-restaurant.shtml (ftp://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141214/11540529440/irs-drops-its-asset-forfeiture-case-against-owner-small-cash-only-restaurant.shtml)
For the record, going to the bank and depositing a weekend's worth of sales isn't "structuring" and it isn't "illegal". For a person who runs a family farm, breeds dogs, horses, cattle, chickens, or sells at a grower's market, it's called "Monday".
You take your float out Thursday, you work markets on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, then you go deposit what you earned. If you've got a high-value short-season crop like pinyon nuts, green chile, Asian pears, or something similar it's very possible to make $10k in a single week. Same goes if you make furniture, sell art, or flip cars or furniture.
In the case of the farmer, there's no time to go stand in line at the bank or the ATM daily, because every hour you're not at the stand is several sales you lose and someone else gets. If you can't offload your crop you're likely to lose that year's profits. Accepting checks isn't an option most of the time, because too many people are ripoff artists. Plastic is an option if you're inside cell phone service area and then of course there are all the fees associated with getting that kind of luxury.
What's best of all is if you can send someone to the bank to do the cash drop for you, but that's no longer an option unless their name is on the account (and the bank gets to gouge them for a monthly maintenance fee... see how that works?)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mybanktracker/chase-stops-cash-deposits_b_5568830.html (ftp://www.huffingtonpost.com/mybanktracker/chase-stops-cash-deposits_b_5568830.html)
It's perfectly acceptable for a sole proprietorship to use a personal account instead of a high-fee business account. It's also perfectly acceptable to go to the bank at least once a week instead of letting cash pile up in the house and attract burglars.
No human being should be required to tolerate the extra stress and risk of allowing cash to pile up in the home so that it can be taken to the bank in IRS-friendly or IRS-unfriendly amounts.
-
Two ways. First, it's part of what I see as a deliberate shift away from cash and toward electronic transactions, which have the virtue of being trackable but which also require what I think of as "infrastructure": a phone line, a cell connection, etc. That kind of trend is fine for large volume businesses where it gets lost in the noise, but for a smaller business it's a bigger impact.
Second, eventually you do have to do business with a financial institution if only to pay income taxes: the IRS only started accepting cash this year and not all of the states that collect income taxes or gross receipt taxes accept cash. If financial institutions are no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt, you simply have to suck it up and make extra trips to keep the deposit amounts low, or accept the financial hit that comes with having a phone line put in or paying through the nose for satellite connectivity.
I'd list the risk of civil asset forfeiture also except it's been discussed thoroughly in other threads. My point is that the suspicion associated with dealing in cash never seems to be directed against the big players, just the little people. Big-box companies or to retail employees making a cash drop or pulling a float are never the innocent victims. It's always the mom-and-pop businesses or an individual who just sold a car or got paid for some home repairs. We never hear of a mall employee getting clipped while making a cash drop at the bank after closing up the store. Statistically I'd expect it to happen more often.
That's...not how it works. That's also called structuring (https://www.money-education.com/resources/financial-planning-news-and-blogs/blog/129-structuring-cash-transactions-under-10-000-is-criminal), and is illegal.
If you have an example of a business that was refused business by a financial institution because they routinely legally deposited over $10k in cash, I'd love to see it.
Here you go. 100% legal, and the bank refuses to do business.
https://www.greendot.com/content/docs/GreenDotRewardsDAA.pdf
(https://www.greendot.com/content/docs/GreenDotRewardsDAA.pdf)
Green Dot is a smaller bank, but they spell their policy out in black and white, and they set their cutoff substantially below $10k.
Here banks are just plain refusing to handle transactions for a business that is perfectly legal in their state.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/us/banks-say-no-to-marijuana-money-legal-or-not.html
(https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/us/banks-say-no-to-marijuana-money-legal-or-not.html)
But at least the pot growers were luckier than these folks.
This one had some IRS trouble involving LESS than $10k in cash deposits.
https://www.rt.com/usa/199883-irs-structuring-civil-asset-forfeiture/
(https://www.rt.com/usa/199883-irs-structuring-civil-asset-forfeiture/)
Here a lady followed her banker's instructions and made roughly one deposit per week from her cash-only restaurant, to stay under the $10,000 limit. Note that this was at the bank's request.
http://www.wnd.com/2014/10/irs-seizes-life-savings-for-deposits-under-10000/
(http://www.wnd.com/2014/10/irs-seizes-life-savings-for-deposits-under-10000/)
This time they backed down and decided that a restaurant owner who did weekly deposits instead of carrying cash around shouldn't have her assets seized, but look what it did to her.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141214/11540529440/irs-drops-its-asset-forfeiture-case-against-owner-small-cash-only-restaurant.shtml (ftp://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141214/11540529440/irs-drops-its-asset-forfeiture-case-against-owner-small-cash-only-restaurant.shtml)
For the record, going to the bank and depositing a weekend's worth of sales isn't "structuring" and it isn't "illegal". For a person who runs a family farm, breeds dogs, horses, cattle, chickens, or sells at a grower's market, it's called "Monday".
You take your float out Thursday, you work markets on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, then you go deposit what you earned. If you've got a high-value short-season crop like pinyon nuts, green chile, Asian pears, or something similar it's very possible to make $10k in a single week. Same goes if you make furniture, sell art, or flip cars or furniture.
In the case of the farmer, there's no time to go stand in line at the bank or the ATM daily, because every hour you're not at the stand is several sales you lose and someone else gets. If you can't offload your crop you're likely to lose that year's profits. Accepting checks isn't an option most of the time, because too many people are ripoff artists. Plastic is an option if you're inside cell phone service area and then of course there are all the fees associated with getting that kind of luxury.
What's best of all is if you can send someone to the bank to do the cash drop for you, but that's no longer an option unless their name is on the account (and the bank gets to gouge them for a monthly maintenance fee... see how that works?)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mybanktracker/chase-stops-cash-deposits_b_5568830.html (ftp://www.huffingtonpost.com/mybanktracker/chase-stops-cash-deposits_b_5568830.html)
It's perfectly acceptable for a sole proprietorship to use a personal account instead of a high-fee business account. It's also perfectly acceptable to go to the bank at least once a week instead of letting cash pile up in the house and attract burglars.
No human being should be required to tolerate the extra stress and risk of allowing cash to pile up in the home so that it can be taken to the bank in IRS-friendly or IRS-unfriendly amounts.
1) Green Dot's products are pre-paid cards. They don't have traditional bank accounts -- and their daily ACH limit is $2,500. (https://www.greendot.com/greendot/account/ach-bank-account) Your attitude towards them is unfounded.
2) That's about MJ businesses, not cash deposits.
Chase's cash deposit policy that you referenced only applies to cash deposits made to a personal account. Personal accounts are, by definition, for personal use. Other than being complainypants towards "the man," I'm not sure how someone could have a problem with this policy.
The other examples are civil forfeiture, not a bank "no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt."
-
In 2013 my '99 Camry died and I had $5000 to spend on a replacement. I found a 2007 Sonata at a VW dealership. I drove it and didn't care for the "feel" of it. Spoiled by Toyota, I guess. While I was there, a salesman cordially invited me to sit down.
He said, "Do you realize how much money you're wasting by buying used"?
I just stared at him as I let that little gem of wisdom float in the otherwise still air of a very empty dealership. Then I explained the beauty of not having a car note on a dependable car that would last me many years. There's just no arguing with that. He knew it, and I knew it. Our conversation was a short one.
-
Chase's cash deposit policy that you referenced only applies to cash deposits made to a personal account. Personal accounts are, by definition, for personal use. Other than being complainypants towards "the man," I'm not sure how someone could have a problem with this policy.
The other examples are civil forfeiture, not a bank "no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt."
No, actually, the reason the lady with the restaurant was the victim of a civil asset forfeiture was because her bank wouldn't take her biweekly cash deposits, which were over $10k, and instructed her to spread them out. It was her following the bank's instructions that led to her trouble with the IRS. It's kind of, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
There are plenty of reasons to put cash into someone else's account and it's completely normal behavior.
- Parents putting money into an account of a child who's at a university out of town
- A spouse putting money into the account of another spouse who's traveling overseas
- A 'stacheless friend (we all have one) is traveling, has an emergency, but cannot wait for Western Union or for a check to clear. Cash deposits are handled almost instantaneously.
- Handing the bills and the deposit slip to a family member to drop off while running errands
- A child putting his or her babysitting or lawn mowing money in a parent's account for safekeeping (no, not all kids have their own accounts)
- An employee of a sole proprietor business (not a LLC) makes a deposit of cash receipts as part of his or her employment duties
- A person is contributing to raise money to bury a fallen police officer or murdered child (what usually happens: a bank or credit union sets up an account in the name of the next of kin)
Wanting to continue being able to do these things is not "being complainypants toward 'the man'". It's perfectly normal behavior.
-
Chase's cash deposit policy that you referenced only applies to cash deposits made to a personal account. Personal accounts are, by definition, for personal use. Other than being complainypants towards "the man," I'm not sure how someone could have a problem with this policy.
The other examples are civil forfeiture, not a bank "no longer willing to do business with you because the paperwork makes your business model too much of a pain in the butt."
No, actually, the reason the lady with the restaurant was the victim of a civil asset forfeiture was because her bank wouldn't take her biweekly cash deposits, which were over $10k, and instructed her to spread them out. It was her following the bank's instructions that led to her trouble with the IRS. It's kind of, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
There are plenty of reasons to put cash into someone else's account and it's completely normal behavior.
- Parents putting money into an account of a child who's at a university out of town
- A spouse putting money into the account of another spouse who's traveling overseas
- A 'stacheless friend (we all have one) is traveling, has an emergency, but cannot wait for Western Union or for a check to clear. Cash deposits are handled almost instantaneously.
- Handing the bills and the deposit slip to a family member to drop off while running errands
- A child putting his or her babysitting or lawn mowing money in a parent's account for safekeeping (no, not all kids have their own accounts)
- An employee of a sole proprietor business (not a LLC) makes a deposit of cash receipts as part of his or her employment duties
- A person is contributing to raise money to bury a fallen police officer or murdered child (what usually happens: a bank or credit union sets up an account in the name of the next of kin)
Wanting to continue being able to do these things is not "being complainypants toward 'the man'". It's perfectly normal behavior.
Am I looking at the wrong link? I see this:
“My mom had told me if you keep your deposits under $10,000, the bank avoids paperwork,” she said. “I didn’t actually think it had anything to do with the IRS.”
I understand that you don't like it, but it's a reasonable policy.
“We are making this policy change for cash deposits only to combat misuse of accounts, including money laundering,” a Chase spokesperson said.
The new policy came about due to the highly publicized Ponzi scheme involving Bernie Madoff. Chase recently reached a $2 billion settlement over lax standards related to the Madoff Ponzi scheme. The policy which started in February 2014 will not affect check and money order deposits being made into personal investment, treasury, and commercial accounts.
“With Chase being America’s biggest bank, it may be creating a new trend that other banking institutions follow,” says Gary Herman, President of Consolidated Credit. “Even though it may be a bit inconvenient and unconventional, this new policy is meant to act as a form of protection.”
-
Back to the "stupid dealer tricks" portion of today's entertainment.
I forgot my all time favorite. About ten years ago I found a new travel trailer at a large volume "wholesaler" dealer about five hours from home. They had what I wanted, it was currently being built, and was to arrive in a few weeks, at the dealer's lot, as part of their inventory. This thing was a true economy model, and needed a few 'upgrades" to make it usable, like a spare tire. This is where things fell down the rabbit hole, and "really weird" didn't quite cover it. First, my salesperson talked like a hippy chick and was likely tripping while working the phones, as she was so slow, it often too half a minute for her to process anything I said, and start on a response. Her end was full of all kinds of delights at meaningless points in the conversation, and lots of flower child comments about random things. This led to issues, as she was either incompetent, or lied her ass off, or both. She first told me that changing several things at the factory was no issue, so a spare tire, bigger propane tanks, etc.... were no problem, and were being done for low cost, at the factory. All total bullshit to close the deal, none of this was possible. Second, she failed to explain that they expected payment in full, within a few days of getting the deposit, and that they would be issuing a title for the unit before it left the factory. This led to a major blow-up for many reasons. First, she never disclosed this before taking a ten percent, non-refundable deposit. Second, had she done so, I would of laughed and moved on, since there is no way any intelligent person would do this. Third, they based this game on the fact that their rigs were "custom ordered" and paying in full assured that they would not be stuck with somebody's highly custom RV. The last one is bullshit on so many levels including the fact that there is no way to really end up with a highly individualized rig in this case. You pick a few colors and options from a limited list, and your done. You can't get a pink exterior and an orange interior, it's all slightly different variations of the same crap. The biggest reason however was that this unit was inbound to sit on their lot. I didn't order it.
This led to a stalemate with management that lasted a few days. MY position was not negotiable. I will never pay for, and title a vehicle in my name, prior to inspecting it in person, end of story. They then tried to tell me that I had to do it this way, since the state will not issue a temporary transit tag to let the vehicle leave the state unless the transaction had been processed at least 24 hours earlier. I then revealed that I had been a repeat customer of a large truck dealer in their state, where I regularly bought trucks for my business, and magically left the dealership a few hours after I arrived, with the very tag that they claim couldn't be issued. We finally moved past that point, but only after the hippy called to tell me that I was wrong, basically called me a liar, and that she HAD informed me that I would be paying in full, and titling an RV before it left the factory. When I called her on her bullshit, she told me that I was "creating a lot of negative energy, and she wasn't comfortable with the vibe". Poor little princess, I hope she has recovered. I can't imagine how she managed to stay employed, as her performance was too bizarre to tolerate by any semi-professional standards.
When the thing finally arrived, I was jerked around a few days while they fit me into their schedule. It was dead of winter, at the Canadian border, and the dealership was so dead that they looked like they had folded up shop. But whatever game the manager needed to play was OK by me. I got there mid-week. He was being a dick and couldn't fit me in until then since he was "slammed with new customer deliveries". The shop guys said it was the first thing they did all week. The next issue is that, since I want's a big enough idiot to pay for the thing weeks before, they refused to accept any kind of payment offered. WTF? Cash? Nope, we will not handle $11K in cash. Certified check? Nope, we won't risk getting a bogus check and some out of state buyer driving our stolen rig off into the sunset. OK, I got it. There is a branch of my bank a few blocks from your dealership. I will drive an employee there, have them observe the banker generating a legitimate check, then have the bank hand it to your employee? Nope, we can't tell you why we won't do this, but no. Finally I told them that they could either accept a wire transfer, or I would be contacting my CC company and getting my deposit refunded, since I was tired of their games. We then arranged a deal where I would inspect the RV, call my banker, authorize him to wire funds to their account, and they would give me the title when they were sure the transfer had occurred. This was acceptable.
As I was about to leave with the RV, they had the balls to ask for $25 since they had issued a temporary paper license plate. I went to the back of the trailer, tore it off, installed a metal trailer plate I had from another trailer, and dropped the paper tag off at desk. When the clerk told me I couldn't leave without paying for it, I asked to speak to the manager, who magically wasn't anywhere to be found. They got him on the phone, and he tried to tell me how he went out of his way to get me that plate. I told him to fuck off, and left.
The trailer was great. We used it hard, and often for four years, and sold it for a few thousand less.
-
I've been debating this for a while now. I work on MINIs and there is a lack of independent shops that cater to those cars. The only issue is the low sale over the past few years, so not sure how such a specific brand can support an independent shop.
I do work on air-cooled VW's for fun, so maybe having two smaller niche markets can be a plus and can sustain a 3 bay shop.
Man that would be so sweet ;)
You might find work in the bay area - there are a lot of people with more money than sense, and who really really value their air-cooled VWs and their minis.
-
My story isn't as interesting as the dealership was so totally uninterested in selling to me...
I wanted a motorcycle and had decided on a Ninja 300 ABS. Relatively inexpensive and a newer model at the time, so I was willing to buy new. I contacted the dealership who said they didn't have any. I said I wanted to buy one, let me know as soon as you get one in. Nothing for weeks. Checked in, and they had a whole bunch. Went and looked at them, couldn't get a salesperson to even talk to me. Ended up buying an old rough used Katana as a project bike from a friend instead.
Same dealership has an excellent parts department. I use them all the time, they can get old parts, no problem.
That's important because... Same dealership has a service department. They won't work on "old" bikes (anything pre-2000) because they claim that they can't get parts for them. Which is really funny because the parts they claim are unavailable, I have no problem ordering from parts department at the very same dealership! And it's not a scam to get people to buy new bikes, because if you go back to the beginning, they seem totally uninterested in selling bikes!
Mind = boggled.
-
You know how dealership salesmen descend upon you when you drive onto the lot, since they're all looking for commission?
If you want to just shop, try riding a bicycle to the dealer. The salesmen want nothing to do with you.
-
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
Oh, sure -- excellent advice. Similarly, you should keep a mortgage for the tax break!
Thing is, some people don't know any better. Others are looking for any excuse to allow themselves to be "talked into" buying a new car.
But it still doesn't make sense. You DO actually get a tax break for mortgage interest.
But the government doesn't tax you on your bank balance. There is no tax hit for having money in the bank.
So many people don't get this. My husband's family lives to talk about the one rich uncle whose accountant told him he "had to buy a lake house so he wouldn't get taxed like crazy." Said rich uncle is an employee, not a business owner (according to what I've been told), so something has clearly been lost in translation.
My sister-in-law was also supposedly told to buy a new car to save on taxes. Again, she doesn't own a business. Whatever.
-
3. Sales in December increase because "People want to clear out their bank accounts by the end of the year so they don't take a tax hit".
W. T. F. ?!? I can't even wrap my head around this statement, and TWO different sales associates said this to me.
Oh, sure -- excellent advice. Similarly, you should keep a mortgage for the tax break!
Thing is, some people don't know any better. Others are looking for any excuse to allow themselves to be "talked into" buying a new car.
But it still doesn't make sense. You DO actually get a tax break for mortgage interest.
But the government doesn't tax you on your bank balance. There is no tax hit for having money in the bank.
So many people don't get this. My husband's family lives to talk about the one rich uncle whose accountant told him he "had to buy a lake house so he wouldn't get taxed like crazy." Said rich uncle is an employee, not a business owner (according to what I've been told), so something has clearly been lost in translation.
My sister-in-law was also supposedly told to buy a new car to save on taxes. Again, she doesn't own a business. Whatever.
And a whole lot of people don't understand that at today's interest rates and today's standard deduction amounts: They don't get a tax break for mortgage interest. I'm not saying folks in this thread haven't done the math. But I can't tell you how many times folks have told me that without doing the math. Or they've "bought a more expensive house to get a tax break". (I.e., spending a dollar so they can save 20 cents.)
-
I understand that you don't like it, but it's a reasonable policy.
Reasonable for the bank, and the government, and the IRS, yes. I don't dispute that. But at the same time, the policy is extremely unreasonable and inconvenient for a set of people who are simply going about their ordinary law-abiding lives and who aren't doing anything wrong. That set contains more individuals-- many of whom are voters-- than government officials and policymakers appear to realize.
Whether government policies make it easier for banks to do business or stay in business is of fundamental importance to our government, because the shareholders of the bank are important. That's why if a bank screws up badly enough such as during the subprime mortgage meltdown, government fell all over itself making sure the banks' shareholders didn't take too much of a hit. Whether the bank's individual customers are affected by the same policies simply weren't a blip on the government's radar screen.
We can see the same pattern in the automobile sector. Government policies that make it easy for dealers or manufacturers to make money-- such as the Big 3 auto bailout, a laundry list of mandatory whizbang "safety" gadgets that don't actually do anything reliably except break or drive up the price of a new car, or the requirement that new cars be purchased from dealers-- clearly benefit the businesses that manufacture and sell vehicles. They create a barrier to entry for competition from, say, cheap foreign cars such as Tata produces and sells in India that are inexpensive to make and buy but that lack some of the mandatory safety features. The benefit to the dealers, the manufacturers, and the shareholders is clear. But there's zero corresponding benefit to the people who buy the cars.
Businesses are in business to make money. Balancing the interests of the shareholders with the interests of their customers is the name of the game. However, when government intervenes solidly on the side of the shareholders, not just once but over and over again for decades, it becomes possible to make money hand over fist while completely ignoring what the customers need and want. The situation becomes very unbalanced in a way that seldom benefits the customers.
-
a laundry list of mandatory whizbang "safety" gadgets that don't actually do anything reliably except break or drive up the price of a new car, or the requirement that new cars be purchased from dealers-- clearly benefit the businesses that manufacture and sell vehicles. They create a barrier to entry for competition from, say, cheap foreign cars such as Tata produces and sells in India that are inexpensive to make and buy but that lack some of the mandatory safety features. The benefit to the dealers, the manufacturers, and the shareholders is clear. But there's zero corresponding benefit to the people who buy the cars.
Bruh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0
This is the difference between the cheapest american-sold car, and the same car sold in mexico for significantly less, and with significantly fewer safety features and a less safe overall design.
This is what those barriers to entry buy us, and this is why tata has no business selling their $4000 shitmobiles in the US.
I know you don't believe in safety equipment like an ABS, but with all due respect - and you write really insightful things - on the matter of car safety, you're wrong.
-
a laundry list of mandatory whizbang "safety" gadgets that don't actually do anything reliably except break or drive up the price of a new car, or the requirement that new cars be purchased from dealers-- clearly benefit the businesses that manufacture and sell vehicles. They create a barrier to entry for competition from, say, cheap foreign cars such as Tata produces and sells in India that are inexpensive to make and buy but that lack some of the mandatory safety features. The benefit to the dealers, the manufacturers, and the shareholders is clear. But there's zero corresponding benefit to the people who buy the cars.
Bruh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0
This is the difference between the cheapest american-sold car, and the same car sold in mexico for significantly less, and with significantly fewer safety features and a less safe overall design.
This is what those barriers to entry buy us, and this is why tata has no business selling their $4000 shitmobiles in the US.
I know you don't believe in safety equipment like an ABS, but with all due respect - and you write really insightful things - on the matter of car safety, you're wrong.
Yea...........X2. I'm a big fan of yours, Squeaker, but you're way off base on this one. Doesn't matter if it's ABS, side air bags, traction control, crumple zones, crash testing, or penalizing the shit out of GM for saving less than a dollar on ignitions that they knew were defective, I am grateful that the government is trying to do their job in that arena. I'm about an uber antimustachian when it comes to a lifetime of clown car owning and driving. In that time, and countless vehicles, I have never spent a dime on dealing with defective safety equipment on my vehicles. In fact, I think that it's totally fair to say that the newest, most complex, over-regulated vehicles that I have owned, are by far the most reliable.
We saw a horrifying example of this today. We spent half an hour crawling in holiday traffic to get past an accident. Somebody had violently rear ended a 1972ish Olds Cutlass convertible with a Honda element. At a quick glance, it was hard to believe that the Honda was involved. The crumple zones performed as designed, and from the windshield on back, the car looked undamaged. The rear of the Cutlass looked like it got taken out by a tractor trailer, it was crushed forward and down. Sadly, the fuel tank ignited, and the car burned to a crisp. Hopefully the occupants got out in time? I love old cars, and owned twenty, or so, air cooled VWs as a kid and young adult. That said, I would never buy another bug to drive on a regular basis. There have been thousands of people killed, paralyzed and severely injured just do to being rear ended while sitting in seats that were anchored to the car using 1940s tech. Basically, thin sheet metal slides that would work fine for file cabinets, but are nothing but a death trap, when you get hit hard from behind.
Sorry, but IMHO $7K Mexican Nissan Sentras, with late 80's tech. And $4K Tatas, that are about as safe as a riding mower, and are developing a bad habit of spontaneously burning to the ground, are nothing that we, as a society, are missing out on.
-
a laundry list of mandatory whizbang "safety" gadgets that don't actually do anything reliably except break or drive up the price of a new car, or the requirement that new cars be purchased from dealers-- clearly benefit the businesses that manufacture and sell vehicles. They create a barrier to entry for competition from, say, cheap foreign cars such as Tata produces and sells in India that are inexpensive to make and buy but that lack some of the mandatory safety features. The benefit to the dealers, the manufacturers, and the shareholders is clear. But there's zero corresponding benefit to the people who buy the cars.
Bruh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0
This is the difference between the cheapest american-sold car, and the same car sold in mexico for significantly less, and with significantly fewer safety features and a less safe overall design.
This is what those barriers to entry buy us, and this is why tata has no business selling their $4000 shitmobiles in the US.
I know you don't believe in safety equipment like an ABS, but with all due respect - and you write really insightful things - on the matter of car safety, you're wrong.
Yea...........X2. I'm a big fan of yours, Squeaker, but you're way off base on this one. Doesn't matter if it's ABS, side air bags, traction control, crumple zones, crash testing, or penalizing the shit out of GM for saving less than a dollar on ignitions that they knew were defective, I am grateful that the government is trying to do their job in that arena. I'm about an uber antimustachian when it comes to a lifetime of clown car owning and driving. In that time, and countless vehicles, I have never spent a dime on dealing with defective safety equipment on my vehicles. In fact, I think that it's totally fair to say that the newest, most complex, over-regulated vehicles that I have owned, are by far the most reliable.
We saw a horrifying example of this today. We spent half an hour crawling in holiday traffic to get past an accident. Somebody had violently rear ended a 1972ish Olds Cutlass convertible with a Honda element. At a quick glance, it was hard to believe that the Honda was involved. The crumple zones performed as designed, and from the windshield on back, the car looked undamaged. The rear of the Cutlass looked like it got taken out by a tractor trailer, it was crushed forward and down. Sadly, the fuel tank ignited, and the car burned to a crisp. Hopefully the occupants got out in time? I love old cars, and owned twenty, or so, air cooled VWs as a kid and young adult. That said, I would never buy another bug to drive on a regular basis. There have been thousands of people killed, paralyzed and severely injured just do to being rear ended while sitting in seats that were anchored to the car using 1940s tech. Basically, thin sheet metal slides that would work fine for file cabinets, but are nothing but a death trap, when you get hit hard from behind.
Sorry, but IMHO $7K Mexican Nissan Sentras, with late 80's tech. And $4K Tatas, that are about as safe as a riding mower, and are developing a bad habit of spontaneously burning to the ground, are nothing that we, as a society, are missing out on.
There's precedent for people to decide whether their conditions and driving plans justify the purchase of snow tires. That's an example of optional safety equipment. Presently they're not mandatory in Florida, and I'm hoping you're not suggesting that they would be.
Just because a product is cheap doesn't mean it's defective. We can still require recall of dangerously defective products without requiring people to pay ridiculous sums for features designed for a radically different environment than where they will be used.
There are places where people can and do go about on public roads using a riding mower, a tractor, an Amish buggy, a bicycle, a horse, a moped, a rickshaw, a Model T, or a motor scooter without a problem. Typically they're not allowed on major highways but they are routinely used in quiet neighborhoods or small towns for shorter trips. I fail to see why an ultralight auto should be treated any differently than a motor scooter.
I'm also wondering why we've got such a collective black-and-white mentality about 4-wheeled vehicle safety, when we routinely accept the notion that there's more than one kind of 2-wheeled device available and that some have constraints on when, where, and how they can be used.
Why is it OK for there to not be a middle ground, and for there to be nothing on the market to serve the senior citizen who only uses it to get groceries or go to doctor's appointments? I'm thinking: golf cart with doors. Limited range, limited speed, not allowed on major streets or highways.
-
Why is it OK for there to not be a middle ground, and for there to be nothing on the market to serve the senior citizen who only uses it to get groceries or go to doctor's appointments? I'm thinking: golf cart with doors. Limited range, limited speed, not allowed on major streets or highways.
I'm also wondering why we've got such a collective black-and-white mentality about 4-wheeled vehicle safety, when we routinely accept the notion that there's more than one kind of 2-wheeled device available and that some have constraints on when, where, and how they can be used.
One big difference is it's a lot easier to distinguish, for example, motordonorcyles from scooters from 4 wheeled vehicles. Society accepts that motordonorcyles mostly because they are rare compared to a 4 wheeled car and the risks are readily apparent to anyone with at least 2 brain cells to rub together. Moreover, it's relatively easy to make allowances for a scooter to use the side of the road and/or bike lane, but not as easy to make allowances for something like a golf cart at golf cart speeds. Roads would have to be re-engineered to allow for three different vehicle types.
As far as vehicle safety, even at relatively low speeds crashes can still happen at very deadly energies because of vehicles driving in opposite directions. The posted video only has the cars going ~35 mph and the POS vehicle still folds like a tent crushing its occupant. In order to make roads safe for things like you propose, you just can't have them sharing the road with regular 4 wheeled vehicles.
-
Why is it OK for there to not be a middle ground, and for there to be nothing on the market to serve the senior citizen who only uses it to get groceries or go to doctor's appointments? I'm thinking: golf cart with doors. Limited range, limited speed, not allowed on major streets or highways.
You're describing something that already exists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle
-
Ugh, buying cars. Dealerships can be funny if you have time to waste.
When I was looking at replacing my non-functional little ford ranger with a functional little ford ranger. Rangers are great sizes for hauling large sheets of wood and drywall. I found a dealership that had one for a good price (<6000). Turns out the one online wasn't going to work. The sales lady tried to convince me that a Ford F150 crew cab is a small truck.... When I said it was huge and the bed was too small for hauling wood, the assistant sales guy tried to convince me that a ranger couldn't carry a sheet of plywood. DH and I stared at each other and DH said to me, "then how have we been hauling all this wood for years?" We walked and had the old ranger fixed.
LV
-
...I'm also wondering why we've got such a collective black-and-white mentality about 4-wheeled vehicle safety, when we routinely accept the notion that there's more than one kind of 2-wheeled device available and that some have constraints on when, where, and how they can be used.
Why is it OK for there to not be a middle ground, and for there to be nothing on the market to serve the senior citizen who only uses it to get groceries or go to doctor's appointments? I'm thinking: golf cart with doors. Limited range, limited speed, not allowed on major streets or highways.
Come to Rockport, TX and you can drive your modified golf cart on streets with a speed limit of 35 mph or lower. We have one (no doors, but have seat belts) and use it for groceries, errands, the beach, going to events, etc...basically anywhere within range of the batteries. There are quite a few mechanical restrictions (including no faster than 20 mph, lights) and the road restrictions and only in daylight. We drive along the edge of the lane to make it easier for people to pass. We've also modified it to go the full 20 mph, not the standard 15 mph. If it let's me, I'll attach a copy of our law.
Am I afraid of being hit? Not more than usual. I rode scooters and m/c's from age 14 to 61 and was never in an accident.
-
I've been looking at getting a volt for the last 4 months. I check cars.com a couple times a month and have contacted the dealerships with the lowest online price within a couple hundred miles of where I live. I've yet to have one agree on the price listed on cars.com.
One of my best friends went to the USAA online car buying site. Basically an interface with the bank where dealerships list no haggle prices and you click and say you want the car so USAA starts the loan if you need one. My friend went to the dealership after clicking on the vehicle he wanted at the price he wanted. The dealership says nope we can't give you that price we'll give it to you for a thousand more if you're paying cash. He shows them the price on USAA and truecar.com. He calls USAA up and says what's the deal. USAA basically tells him he can file a complaint and the dealership may loose their ability to market on the USAA car buying program. Eventually the dealership brings the price down to within $300 of the USAA no haggle price.
-
I've been looking at getting a volt for the last 4 months. I check cars.com a couple times a month and have contacted the dealerships with the lowest online price within a couple hundred miles of where I live. I've yet to have one agree on the price listed on cars.com.
One of my best friends went to the USAA online car buying site. Basically an interface with the bank where dealerships list no haggle prices and you click and say you want the car so USAA starts the loan if you need one. My friend went to the dealership after clicking on the vehicle he wanted at the price he wanted. The dealership says nope we can't give you that price we'll give it to you for a thousand more if you're paying cash. He shows them the price on USAA and truecar.com. He calls USAA up and says what's the deal. USAA basically tells him he can file a complaint and the dealership may loose their ability to market on the USAA car buying program. Eventually the dealership brings the price down to within $300 of the USAA no haggle price.
That sounds like a case of false advertising to me, and something that may leave the dealer open to legal action.
When I bought my current car, it was on Autotrader, eBay and cars.com, and they had it listed on the dealer's site too. The various prices had a $5000 spread, with the lowest price being the eBay listing.
I went to see the car, liked it, and said I'd buy it at the eBay price. They balked at that, saying it was only a "starting bid". I told them I could push the "buy it now" button on my phone and cost them money in eBay commissions, or they could just give me the damn car at the advertised price.
It was a very good price. I was still seeing 2010 models with more miles at the same price two years later.
-
I've been looking at getting a volt for the last 4 months. I check cars.com a couple times a month and have contacted the dealerships with the lowest online price within a couple hundred miles of where I live. I've yet to have one agree on the price listed on cars.com.
One of my best friends went to the USAA online car buying site. Basically an interface with the bank where dealerships list no haggle prices and you click and say you want the car so USAA starts the loan if you need one. My friend went to the dealership after clicking on the vehicle he wanted at the price he wanted. The dealership says nope we can't give you that price we'll give it to you for a thousand more if you're paying cash. He shows them the price on USAA and truecar.com. He calls USAA up and says what's the deal. USAA basically tells him he can file a complaint and the dealership may loose their ability to market on the USAA car buying program. Eventually the dealership brings the price down to within $300 of the USAA no haggle price.
That sounds like a case of false advertising to me, and something that may leave the dealer open to legal action.
When I bought my current car, it was on Autotrader, eBay and cars.com, and they had it listed on the dealer's site too. The various prices had a $5000 spread, with the lowest price being the eBay listing.
I went to see the car, liked it, and said I'd buy it at the eBay price. They balked at that, saying it was only a "starting bid". I told them I could push the "buy it now" button on my phone and cost them money in eBay commissions, or they could just give me the damn car at the advertised price.
It was a very good price. I was still seeing 2010 models with more miles at the same price two years later.
Totally agree with Dave. I wouldn't pay $1 more than an advertised price. I'd be out the door. If I was quick thinking enough, I'd try to get them on camera saying they wouldn't take the ad price.
-
Why is it OK for there to not be a middle ground, and for there to be nothing on the market to serve the senior citizen who only uses it to get groceries or go to doctor's appointments? I'm thinking: golf cart with doors. Limited range, limited speed, not allowed on major streets or highways.
I'm also wondering why we've got such a collective black-and-white mentality about 4-wheeled vehicle safety, when we routinely accept the notion that there's more than one kind of 2-wheeled device available and that some have constraints on when, where, and how they can be used.
One big difference is it's a lot easier to distinguish, for example, motordonorcyles from scooters from 4 wheeled vehicles. Society accepts that motordonorcyles mostly because they are rare compared to a 4 wheeled car and the risks are readily apparent to anyone with at least 2 brain cells to rub together. Moreover, it's relatively easy to make allowances for a scooter to use the side of the road and/or bike lane, but not as easy to make allowances for something like a golf cart at golf cart speeds. Roads would have to be re-engineered to allow for three different vehicle types.
As far as vehicle safety, even at relatively low speeds crashes can still happen at very deadly energies because of vehicles driving in opposite directions. The posted video only has the cars going ~35 mph and the POS vehicle still folds like a tent crushing its occupant. In order to make roads safe for things like you propose, you just can't have them sharing the road with regular 4 wheeled vehicles.
Nobody needed to reeingineer the roads to accommodate the Amish buggies, which are even more fragile and powered by horses, which routinely share roads with 4-wheeled vehicles. Nor have the roads been reeingineered to accommodate bicycles or motorcycles.
The roads don't need to be "made safe" for lighter vehicles. My entire point is that safe driving circumstances for light cars already exist and in fact constitute the majority of driving surfaces in most towns and rural areas.
-
Nobody needed to reeingineer the roads to accommodate the Amish buggies, which are even more fragile and powered by horses, which routinely share roads with 4-wheeled vehicles. Nor have the roads been reeingineered to accommodate bicycles or motorcycles.
The roads don't need to be "made safe" for lighter vehicles. My entire point is that safe driving circumstances for light cars already exist and in fact constitute the majority of driving surfaces in most towns and rural areas.
Amish buggies are only tolerated because we literally have to in order to act in a constitutional manner.
As far as bicycles, last time I checked there was indeed re-engineering (perhaps an overstatement) of roads in order to safely accomidate them:
(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikecleveland.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F04%2Fbufferedbikelane.jpg&f=1)
-
Couple of points to ponder for those not living in Amish country. And by "Amish country" I mean thirty thousand Amish in one county, not a few families in BFE.
#1 Buggy accidents are not uncommon, and losing 4-6 souls in a horrific crash with a motor vehicle happens, more regularly that you would imagine. Amish view this as all part of God's will.
#2 Thanks to LED technology, buggies are now one amazing light show after dark. They flash, strobe and can be seen for miles. If you rear end one after dark, you are either blind, or drunk.
#3 Buggies do a metric shit ton of damage to roads. Technically, steel shoed horses do, but they are a big part of the whole "horse and buggy" concept. I imagine that it's tough to get many miles on the buggy without one. Heavily used blacktop roads have a 16" wide, shallow depression worn into a horse path, and the steel wheels buff the macadam to a high gloss. Some rural townships will repave just the narrow gully that the horses create, to re-level the road surface. I have seen the concrete road surface of a state highway bridge that was so heavily pounded by horses, they had ground the surface down to the point that the rebar was exposed. The other amazing thing to see is local Mennonite farmers who run steel wheels on their tractors. They also do a nice job of damaging roads. Now when it comes to why they can use tractors, but not rubber tires, well......... I'll leave that to them to explain.
-
As far as bicycles, last time I checked there was indeed re-engineering (perhaps an overstatement) of roads in order to safely accomidate them:
(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikecleveland.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F04%2Fbufferedbikelane.jpg&f=1)
Down here there are no bike lanes. Most roads don't have shoulders, unless they are main highways. The Farm to Market (FM) roads may have shoulders in town, but not outside the city limits. We still share the road and I haven't seen or read about a car/bicycle accident since moving here. Motorcycle/car accident...yes.
-
As far as bicycles, last time I checked there was indeed re-engineering (perhaps an overstatement) of roads in order to safely accomidate them:
(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikecleveland.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F04%2Fbufferedbikelane.jpg&f=1)
Down here there are no bike lanes. Most roads don't have shoulders, unless they are main highways. The Farm to Market (FM) roads may have shoulders in town, but not outside the city limits. We still share the road and I haven't seen or read about a car/bicycle accident since moving here. Motorcycle/car accident...yes.
FWIW, we get probably 2 car/bike collisions a year. I'm Texas, too, but a ways north/east of you. We have similar roads as to what you describe.
-
Grim, allow me to answer some of your points.
The problem with allowing shit-mobiles masquerading as real cars on the roads is two-fold.
One, if the car is capable of highway speeds, you will not be able to ban them from the highway. It simply won't work. They look enough like real cars to pass, people will use them on the highway regardless of legality, and it's going to be a real mess because people are idiots. The only way to get around that is to limit their top speed to ~35, which is already a thing that exists and you can go out and buy such a vehicle right now.
Two, the choice - now, you may say, well, we can simply sell these less safe cars and make sure everyone is informed that they're rolling death traps, and of course nobody would spend their money on them when they're for highway use. That's all very well and libertarian, but it is simply not how life works - dealerships will be convincing people to buy new instead of used, lying about the danger involved, and so on. People will convince themselves that they "deserve" a new car and would rather have new instead of used for the same price. And so on and so on. This is why regulations exist for many safety-related items like seat belts - people are fucking idiots and eventually we all get together and decide that enough is enough, people are dying for no good reason, and it benefits society to make it stop.
So we have minimum acceptable safety standards for four-wheeled production cars.
Mind you, nothing stops you from buying a kit car or similar - something that basically has a tube chassis (or sometimes fancier), suspension, drivetrain, and nothing else. Super light, super fast, super fun, and it'll kill you. That's fine if you build it in your garage or if you buy it from a boutique, limited production manufacturer. These types of cars are allowed specifically because anyone buying one or building one has a bunch of money and is knowledgeable about cars and has done research. Normal families don't buy them, kids don't turn into a bloody mess inside of them, because they're toys. There are no dealerships trying to convince families to buy them, nobody is pretending they're anything but a fun death trap. Much like motorcycles, it's very much a "you do you" situation that works only because the numbers are so small, because the drivers are all enthusiasts, and because they're generally used only in the best situations (dry ground, warm tires, good visibility, low traffic.)
As for winter tires, winter tires are not a safety item in Florida, so nobody is mandating that you use winter tires in Florida. It's that simple. Winter tires are a safety item in other parts of the country, and guess what? Their use is mandated! Here in the sierras, you have to have AWD/4WD, proper all-season tires, winter tires, or chains, depending on the snow severity. In other places, winter-capable tires are required by law between certain months. Bringing up Florida is a red herring, a strawman - Florida doesn't see a significant amount of snow, ice, or even sub-zero temperatures, so it's not an issue to drive on basic all-seasons year round; with a careful foot and careful distance keeping, even high performance summer tires do just fine in the coldest Florida winter despite having the traction of rubber pucks. Try that shit in the sierras with snow on the ground and you'll die. Hence laws.
Horse-and-buggies are a weird case - they're allowed on the roads essentially due to the first amendment rights of the amish. Despite that, deaths (especially in years past, when they weren't decked out in lights) were common. They're destructive, dangerous, and shitty (literally), and the only reason we really allow them is because of weird religious bullshit and lots of tradition (and shitloads of road signs, and fairly limited impact because very few areas in the countries have buggies on the roads.)
So I guess if you want, start a main-stream religion that demands that you drive shitty deathtrap cars on the highway.
-
Down here there are no bike lanes. Most roads don't have shoulders, unless they are main highways. The Farm to Market (FM) roads may have shoulders in town, but not outside the city limits. We still share the road and I haven't seen or read about a car/bicycle accident since moving here. Motorcycle/car accident...yes.
In similar news, I haven't heard or seen or read about an automobile accident in several years in my town (pop 150k). Though, I have see a couple shrines to dead biker on roads without bike lanes. Apparently my town has solved the issue of car accidents! I hadn't realized that until just now.
-
Down here there are no bike lanes. Most roads don't have shoulders, unless they are main highways. The Farm to Market (FM) roads may have shoulders in town, but not outside the city limits. We still share the road and I haven't seen or read about a car/bicycle accident since moving here. Motorcycle/car accident...yes.
In similar news, I haven't heard or seen or read about an automobile accident in several years in my town (pop 150k). Though, I have see a couple shrines to dead biker on roads without bike lanes. Apparently my town has solved the issue of car accidents! I hadn't realized that until just now.
There are few m/c accidents that don't involve a car somehow. Exception is the xxxxx rockets and their stunt rides and curve drifting. Down here a roadside "shrine" uses a Spanish word, "deconses" (spelled wrong). Alcohol plays well for both car and m/c accidents. When I rode I was the most defensive rider on the road. Saved me a couple time to be ready to stop when no one else was stopping.
Sorry, we're off topic. Where's the foam retardant?
-
You know how dealership salesmen descend upon you when you drive onto the lot, since they're all looking for commission?
If you want to just shop, try riding a bicycle to the dealer. The salesmen want nothing to do with you.
Or arrive in something old - even if still quite presentable. Appearances really count for something with that bunch. I hate dealers. I buy my OEM parts online and either install them myself or hire an independent shop to do it for me.
-
Nobody needed to reeingineer the roads to accommodate the Amish buggies, which are even more fragile and powered by horses, which routinely share roads with 4-wheeled vehicles. Nor have the roads been reeingineered to accommodate bicycles or motorcycles.
The roads don't need to be "made safe" for lighter vehicles. My entire point is that safe driving circumstances for light cars already exist and in fact constitute the majority of driving surfaces in most towns and rural areas.
Amish buggies are only tolerated because we literally have to in order to act in a constitutional manner.
As far as bicycles, last time I checked there was indeed re-engineering (perhaps an overstatement) of roads in order to safely accomidate them:
(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikecleveland.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F04%2Fbufferedbikelane.jpg&f=1)
That has to be the widest bike lane I've ever seen.
-
Man, I wish we had golf cart / bike trails to use to get across town. I'd pedal or use a cart every day it wasn't snowing. Its absurd to drive around our little town in a "big" car capable of 'round the globe travel. No point in driving a 3000 lb car to fetch a gallon of milk or haul two adults a few miles this way or that.
Really we only do it b/c bicycles here are dangerous (no reliable sidewalks, no bike lanes, no shoulder, early darkness half the year, idiot drivers) and carts are illegal due to their speed limitations.
-
I'm hearing your points, folks, and thanks for the heads up about the buggy accidents in particular.
My big concern is that every new anti-idiot innovation we come up with (and this isn't just a problem limited to cars) simply helps inspire people to new heights of idiocy. The phrase "moral hazard" is popping up in my mind right now, and I think there's a good chance our widespread foam-padding might be a factor behind risk-taking behavior.
Also, I'm worried about our society's widespread stupidity problem.
Consider, for example, the root cause behind a stupid person driving a souped-up golf cart, Tata, or similar not-safe-for-highway-speeds vehicle on the highway. We can all imagine it happening. But it's not just the vehicle that creates the problem. It's also the stupidity. A person not suffering from stupidity wouldn't take the Go-Kart on the Interstate. For the big failure to happen, we need both the critical ingredients, plus a bit of random stuff like other vehicles, rain, unforeseen circumstances, and a bunch of stuff that is bound to happen sooner or later.
Now I see that we can partially address the problem by taking away one ingredient in the mess... the vehicle... requiring the stupid person to purchase a safer vehicle that might partly mitigate his or her imbecility or at least make a stupidity-induced wreck more survivable. But the stupid is still out there, and now it's got something heavier.
I'm hoping (vainly, perhaps) for a way to reduce the amount of stupidity, or at least keep it from increasing. Now it could just be my antisocial tendencies acting up, but at times I fantasize about a Darwinian approach in which stupidity could be more fatal to its possessor.
-
I'm hearing your points, folks, and thanks for the heads up about the buggy accidents in particular.
My big concern is that every new anti-idiot innovation we come up with (and this isn't just a problem limited to cars) simply helps inspire people to new heights of idiocy. The phrase "moral hazard" is popping up in my mind right now, and I think there's a good chance our widespread foam-padding might be a factor behind risk-taking behavior.
Also, I'm worried about our society's widespread stupidity problem.
Consider, for example, the root cause behind a stupid person driving a souped-up golf cart, Tata, or similar not-safe-for-highway-speeds vehicle on the highway. We can all imagine it happening. But it's not just the vehicle that creates the problem. It's also the stupidity. A person not suffering from stupidity wouldn't take the Go-Kart on the Interstate. For the big failure to happen, we need both the critical ingredients, plus a bit of random stuff like other vehicles, rain, unforeseen circumstances, and a bunch of stuff that is bound to happen sooner or later.
Now I see that we can partially address the problem by taking away one ingredient in the mess... the vehicle... requiring the stupid person to purchase a safer vehicle that might partly mitigate his or her imbecility or at least make a stupidity-induced wreck more survivable. But the stupid is still out there, and now it's got something heavier.
I'm hoping (vainly, perhaps) for a way to reduce the amount of stupidity, or at least keep it from increasing. Now it could just be my antisocial tendencies acting up, but at times I fantasize about a Darwinian approach in which stupidity could be more fatal to its possessor.
I don't see it as protecting people from their stupidity, I see it as protecting ME from other people's stupidity. Both from direct harm caused to me (say losing control of a poorly engineered car causing an accident with me) or indirect harm caused to me (in the form of higher society costs for car insurance, emergency responders, medical facilities, etc.).
And, of course, the "me" includes not my my person, but anyone else not capable of or allowed to make the decision about safety such as minor in a POS vehicle or other similar. If the decision to buy an inherently unsafe car ONLY affected the person making that decision (and with full disclosure) I would have no problem with it. Unfortunately it's just not how it works in the real world.
It doesn't matter how obvious the danger is, there are plenty of people willing to engage in the activity. See: motordonorcycles.
-
I'm hearing your points, folks, and thanks for the heads up about the buggy accidents in particular.
My big concern is that every new anti-idiot innovation we come up with (and this isn't just a problem limited to cars) simply helps inspire people to new heights of idiocy. The phrase "moral hazard" is popping up in my mind right now, and I think there's a good chance our widespread foam-padding might be a factor behind risk-taking behavior.
Also, I'm worried about our society's widespread stupidity problem.
Consider, for example, the root cause behind a stupid person driving a souped-up golf cart, Tata, or similar not-safe-for-highway-speeds vehicle on the highway. We can all imagine it happening. But it's not just the vehicle that creates the problem. It's also the stupidity. A person not suffering from stupidity wouldn't take the Go-Kart on the Interstate. For the big failure to happen, we need both the critical ingredients, plus a bit of random stuff like other vehicles, rain, unforeseen circumstances, and a bunch of stuff that is bound to happen sooner or later.
Now I see that we can partially address the problem by taking away one ingredient in the mess... the vehicle... requiring the stupid person to purchase a safer vehicle that might partly mitigate his or her imbecility or at least make a stupidity-induced wreck more survivable. But the stupid is still out there, and now it's got something heavier.
I'm hoping (vainly, perhaps) for a way to reduce the amount of stupidity, or at least keep it from increasing. Now it could just be my antisocial tendencies acting up, but at times I fantasize about a Darwinian approach in which stupidity could be more fatal to its possessor.
I don't see it as protecting people from their stupidity, I see it as protecting ME from other people's stupidity.
Bingo.
The introduction of lane-departure warnings, radar cruise control and auto emergency braking (to name just a few) are all things that could protect me if another driver falls asleep at the wheel, gets distracted by their kids in the backseat, or starts texting.
I don't believe we can out-legislate or out-tech stupidity, and I don't believe that driver aids replace defensive driving, but more people are likely to buy a car with the above tech than they are to undergo advanced driver training.
-
I agree as well.
There are a lot of new beeps and boops, new safety features that I think are garbage, things that no real driver needs. Lane departure warning. Automatic braking. Stuff like that.
And I won't bloody well be putting those on my car.
However, I am happy to have other people have those things. As MilesTeg has said, those things protect me from stupidity. I'm glad to have it. I don't swerve out of my lane, but other people do, so lane departure for other people is just lovely.
On the other hand, there are safety features that only the ignorant argue against. ABS is one. Traction control, and electronic stability control (or active handling, as it's called in my car) is another. Backup cameras are great, though I hate the center dashboard screen, apart from that, they're great. There is literally no downside to having ABS. You cannot pump your brakes better than a good ABS module. There is no downside to having traction control (with an option to disable it for when you're on the track or carving canyons); same for ESC. These things save your fucking ass when you'd otherwise end up sideways. There is no downside to a camera that shows you what's behind your bumper, though some implementations admittedly suck (but then, it's still a fairly new feature.)
Having ABS doesn't make you a monkey who can't properly brake. It saves even the best drivers on areas of terrible traction - it can save you on gravel, on standing water, on black ice. Certainly there are shitty drivers who use the brake as a binary switch, slamming it at the last possible moment to cause their ABS to activate. Now, you can argue that it's ABS that allows them to brake poorly. It's really not. If ABS didn't exist, they'd still slam the brakes, but they'd slide a bit. Maybe they'd leave a little more distance for the slide. That doesn't make me feel safer - they're still monkeys, but now their car makes us (them, me) safer.
And all that is at the cost of, what, twenty pounds and a hundred fifty dollars? ABS is old hat. All you really need is a wheel speed sensor in four wheel hubs (really not expensive to mass manufacture), a little bit of extra brake line routing (dirt cheap), and some electronics. In return, your ass is safer when you hit black ice that you didn't see and didn't expect. Shit that happens to every driver, no matter how good they are.
Also, for those of us who drive older cars, is that if this stuff breaks down, the car still works. ABS out, traction control out? Car still works. You don't have to fix it. It's not a form of forced car upgrades. Of course, fixing it is usually not that hard, though occasionally expensive. So it goes.
-
I agree and then again I don't really agree completely.
Here is my point of view:
A very high percentage of accidents are caused by the slow biological monkey behind the wheel. Evolution has not prepared us for the experience of hurtling down interstates at 65+ mph. Our attention span, reaction time and even sensory equipment is not really capable of processing all that is going on.
For many years the solution has been to help the monkey do better. ABS is a great example, the monkey can't brake at maximum without locking the wheels so let's make sure the wheels never lock. Same with ESP/ESC, the monkey can't let off the gas and counter-steer fast enough so we take the monkey out of the equation.
We also figure out that the monkeys are soft squishy biological things that explode in a big mess if they get crushed, so we invent crumple zones and airbags.
All this stuff is passive safety in that it doesn't affect any of your actions, but we are still not equipped to deal with interstate speeds. The next logical step is to start intervening when the monkey screws up:
Lane departure warning (which actually does work and provides more safety), blind spot indicators, automatic braking (because the monkey looked somewhere else at the wrong second), collision alerts, forward looking radar (used in automatic cruise control), semi-autonomous self steering (Tesla autopilot) and the list goes on and on...
These systems are all an evolutionary step on the way to removing the monkey from the steering wheel. I drive a Tesla with autopilot and I would not give it up for the world. It keeps the lane better than I can, reacts way way faster when something unexpected happens and it takes a lot of low level work out of driving, leaving me free to concentrate on the big picture in traffic.
In the end the best thing we can do is to take the monkey out of the equation. This is happening fast and will probably be reality within 5-10 years, and personally I can't wait. The autopilot system is a bite of the forbidden fruit, once you try it you want more.
I would love to be able to call my car and have it come pick me up after a party. Have it drive me (in the passenger seat) to the nearest burger-joint and then take me safely home to my bed. Friday-drunk-party monkey would love that.
I look forward to the day when nobody are allowed to drive themselves on public roads and humans manually controlling vehicles is a thing we do on racetracks.
-
On the other hand, there are safety features that only the ignorant argue against. ABS is one. Traction control, and electronic stability control (or active handling, as it's called in my car) is another. Backup cameras are great, though I hate the center dashboard screen, apart from that, they're great. There is literally no downside to having ABS. You cannot pump your brakes better than a good ABS module. There is no downside to having traction control (with an option to disable it for when you're on the track or carving canyons); same for ESC. These things save your fucking ass when you'd otherwise end up sideways. There is no downside to a camera that shows you what's behind your bumper, though some implementations admittedly suck (but then, it's still a fairly new feature.)
Having ABS doesn't make you a monkey who can't properly brake. It saves even the best drivers on areas of terrible traction - it can save you on gravel, on standing water, on black ice. Certainly there are shitty drivers who use the brake as a binary switch, slamming it at the last possible moment to cause their ABS to activate. Now, you can argue that it's ABS that allows them to brake poorly. It's really not. If ABS didn't exist, they'd still slam the brakes, but they'd slide a bit. Maybe they'd leave a little more distance for the slide. That doesn't make me feel safer - they're still monkeys, but now their car makes us (them, me) safer.
Are you familiar with the Munich taxi drivers experiment?
Drivers with ABS displayed less driving skill than those with the ABS, and had a slightly higher accident rate than drivers without ABS. The 'safety system' changed behaviour enough that it had the reverse effect. Safety systems can make the money behave worse, it learns that it can brake late and get away with it, so it brakes later and later.
Subsequent analysis of the rating scales showed that drivers of cabs with ABS made sharper turns in curves, were less accurate in their lane-holding behaviour, proceeded at a shorter forward sight distance, made more poorly adjusted merging manoeuvres and created more "traffic conflicts". This is a technical term for a situation in which one or more traffic participants have to take swift action to avoid a collision with another road user. Finally, as compared with the non-ABS cabs, the ABS cabs were driven faster at one of the four measuring points along the route. All these differences were significant.
To put this experiment in the context of our original two options for reducing risk, ABS brakes are an example of an action that reduces the consequences of risky behaviour.
But the study did not end there, and finds some evidence that the opposite type of strategy, increasing the consequences of risk taking, has quite an effect.
In a further extension of their study, the researchers analysed the accidents recorded by the same taxi company during an additional year. No difference in accident or severity rate between ABS and non-ABS vehicles was observed, but ABS taxis had more accidents under slippery driving conditions than the comparison vehicles.
Source here (http://www.fresheconomicthinking.com/2011/04/there-is-odd-coexistence-between-two.html)
-
On the other hand, there are safety features that only the ignorant argue against. ABS is one. Traction control, and electronic stability control (or active handling, as it's called in my car) is another. Backup cameras are great, though I hate the center dashboard screen, apart from that, they're great. There is literally no downside to having ABS. You cannot pump your brakes better than a good ABS module. There is no downside to having traction control (with an option to disable it for when you're on the track or carving canyons); same for ESC. These things save your fucking ass when you'd otherwise end up sideways. There is no downside to a camera that shows you what's behind your bumper, though some implementations admittedly suck (but then, it's still a fairly new feature.)
Having ABS doesn't make you a monkey who can't properly brake. It saves even the best drivers on areas of terrible traction - it can save you on gravel, on standing water, on black ice. Certainly there are shitty drivers who use the brake as a binary switch, slamming it at the last possible moment to cause their ABS to activate. Now, you can argue that it's ABS that allows them to brake poorly. It's really not. If ABS didn't exist, they'd still slam the brakes, but they'd slide a bit. Maybe they'd leave a little more distance for the slide. That doesn't make me feel safer - they're still monkeys, but now their car makes us (them, me) safer.
Are you familiar with the Munich taxi drivers experiment?
Drivers with ABS displayed less driving skill than those with the ABS, and had a slightly higher accident rate than drivers without ABS. The 'safety system' changed behaviour enough that it had the reverse effect. Safety systems can make the money behave worse, it learns that it can brake late and get away with it, so it brakes later and later.
Subsequent analysis of the rating scales showed that drivers of cabs with ABS made sharper turns in curves, were less accurate in their lane-holding behaviour, proceeded at a shorter forward sight distance, made more poorly adjusted merging manoeuvres and created more "traffic conflicts". This is a technical term for a situation in which one or more traffic participants have to take swift action to avoid a collision with another road user. Finally, as compared with the non-ABS cabs, the ABS cabs were driven faster at one of the four measuring points along the route. All these differences were significant.
To put this experiment in the context of our original two options for reducing risk, ABS brakes are an example of an action that reduces the consequences of risky behaviour.
But the study did not end there, and finds some evidence that the opposite type of strategy, increasing the consequences of risk taking, has quite an effect.
In a further extension of their study, the researchers analysed the accidents recorded by the same taxi company during an additional year. No difference in accident or severity rate between ABS and non-ABS vehicles was observed, but ABS taxis had more accidents under slippery driving conditions than the comparison vehicles.
Source here (http://www.fresheconomicthinking.com/2011/04/there-is-odd-coexistence-between-two.html)
I looked up the Munich Taxi driver experiment which was conducted in the 1980's when ABS was a new and novel thing. The study is often cited in ultra-liberal/anarchist circles as an example of how the nanny-state decreases security for all of us.
The study is not online and no proper references exist online to find out what was going on or what the result data were and how reliable they are.
There is however some notes that hint that drivers felt more confident with ABS and therefore took unnecessary risks. Fast forward to 2017 and ABS is everywhere and not something people think about, it is therefore possible that by now we don't consider ABS a confidence-boosting device and drive as we normally would.
I would ask that somebody produce the original study, because the websites that refer to the study are of very questionably quality indeed.
I will leave you with a video of two cars colliding. One is built in the US according to US law and one is built in Mexico to mexican standards, which would you rather be in?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0
-
I will leave you with a video of two cars colliding. One is built in the US according to US law and one is built in Mexico to mexican standards, which would you rather be in?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OysZ_4lp0
But... but... but Ford is moving some of their vehicle factories to Mexico!!!!!!
But seriously, the next video debunked the rumor I'd heard that SUVs and Pickups were less safe in accidents than cars, so thank you for the link!
-
In the end the best thing we can do is to take the monkey out of the equation. This is happening fast and will probably be reality within 5-10 years, and personally I can't wait. The autopilot system is a bite of the forbidden fruit, once you try it you want more.
I would love to be able to call my car and have it come pick me up after a party. Have it drive me (in the passenger seat) to the nearest burger-joint and then take me safely home to my bed. Friday-drunk-party monkey would love that.
I look forward to the day when nobody are allowed to drive themselves on public roads and humans manually controlling vehicles is a thing we do on racetracks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXls4cdEv7c
-
Is the Nissan Tsuru is structurally the same as the early 90s Nissan Sentra that it resembles?
The modern safety designs we are seeing in the USA may represent an endless arm's race always making last year's car less safe simply b/c it shares the road with this year's model.
How would the Nissan Tsuru fare against a 1992 Nissan Sentra? How would the '58 Chevy Impala fare against another car of its generation?
I don't mind older cars and I adjust my driving habits to take fewer chances when I drive them. My oldest cars are no less safe than a 2017 motorcycle and I do ride motorcycles. Rather than making people feel invincible I don't think it is a bad thing for people to be scared of their vehicles and the physics which apply to them. As John Muir (VW fame) wrote if everyone drove like they were strapped to the front of the vehicle or as if they had a big spike in the center of the steering wheel aimed at them - people would slow down and engage their brains for the driving experience.
I think the best safety system to date will be when the inattentive and risky drivers have been automated and eliminated from the driving process.
-
Is the Nissan Tsuru is structurally the same as the early 90s Nissan Sentra that it resembles?
The modern safety designs we are seeing in the USA may represent an endless arm's race always making last year's car less safe simply b/c it shares the road with this year's model.
How would the Nissan Tsuru fare against a 1992 Nissan Sentra? How would the '58 Chevy Impala fare against another car of its generation?
...snip....
I think the best safety system to date will be when the inattentive and risky drivers have been automated and eliminated from the driving process.
Actually in most 1950-60-70's cars both involved monkeys would end up dead or seriously injured in a crash. No crumple zones, no airbags, no collapsing pedals and steering wheel is really deadly.
Take 2010+ cars and smash them together and you stand a much better chance. But it's not an arms race per se. Cars are designed to crumble better and keep the interior shell intact.
So if you're in a 2010 car it might actually be better if the car you hit is from 2017 if it's able to absorb energy better.
And here is what happens when equal age cars (1970's) go head to head: https://youtu.be/YiNjZLEgAiY
-
Actually in most 1950-60-70's cars both involved monkeys would end up dead or seriously injured in a crash. No crumple zones, no airbags, no collapsing pedals and steering wheel is really deadly.
My anecdotal data is probably worth nothing, but I can tell you that it certainly is possible to drive a 1970s British sports car (probably 1960s technology there) into a concrete guard rail doing 75mph and just get out and walk away.
-
Actually in most 1950-60-70's cars both involved monkeys would end up dead or seriously injured in a crash. No crumple zones, no airbags, no collapsing pedals and steering wheel is really deadly.
My anecdotal data is probably worth nothing, but I can tell you that it certainly is possible to drive a 1970s British sports car (probably 1960s technology there) into a concrete guard rail doing 75mph and just get out and walk away.
Your data would be valid if you did it a 1000 times ;) but please don't. You're pretty lucky though? If you survived a head on collision you should seriously consider playing the lottery.
-
Actually in most 1950-60-70's cars both involved monkeys would end up dead or seriously injured in a crash. No crumple zones, no airbags, no collapsing pedals and steering wheel is really deadly.
My anecdotal data is probably worth nothing, but I can tell you that it certainly is possible to drive a 1970s British sports car (probably 1960s technology there) into a concrete guard rail doing 75mph and just get out and walk away.
Your data would be valid if you did it a 1000 times ;) but please don't. You're pretty lucky though? If you survived a head on collision you should seriously consider playing the lottery.
LOL. Yes, I was certainly lucky. And no, I have no plans on seeing the average outcome.
-
https://www.carbuyingtips.com/articles/blog/how-to-avoid-upside-down-car-loans.htm
break even point on the avg 7 year loan is around year 6 ... this should not be allowed.
-
I was returning a leased Ford last month (I'm leaving behind a life of antiMustachian sin, the angels in heaven sang!) I made the big mistake of telling them that I wouldn't be replacing my expired lease with a new lease. Let's just say that they didn't make helping me a top priority. I had to run back to the dealership several times to sign things.
I shoulda just said I would be leasing the Platinum Edition F350, then backed out after they had my expired lease worked out. Bastards.
-
Is the Nissan Tsuru is structurally the same as the early 90s Nissan Sentra that it resembles?
The modern safety designs we are seeing in the USA may represent an endless arm's race always making last year's car less safe simply b/c it shares the road with this year's model.
How would the Nissan Tsuru fare against a 1992 Nissan Sentra? How would the '58 Chevy Impala fare against another car of its generation?
...snip....
I think the best safety system to date will be when the inattentive and risky drivers have been automated and eliminated from the driving process.
Actually in most 1950-60-70's cars both involved monkeys would end up dead or seriously injured in a crash. No crumple zones, no airbags, no collapsing pedals and steering wheel is really deadly.
Take 2010+ cars and smash them together and you stand a much better chance. But it's not an arms race per se. Cars are designed to crumble better and keep the interior shell intact.
So if you're in a 2010 car it might actually be better if the car you hit is from 2017 if it's able to absorb energy better.
And here is what happens when equal age cars (1970's) go head to head: https://youtu.be/YiNjZLEgAiY
Car crash death statistics support this - far fewer people are injured and killed on the roads today, despite far more miles being driven. Cars are getting objectively safer over time.
-
https://www.carbuyingtips.com/articles/blog/how-to-avoid-upside-down-car-loans.htm
break even point on the avg 7 year loan is around year 6 ... this should not be allowed.
I remember an Armed Forces Network commercial from a few years ago showing the stupidity of financing furniture for the same reason. It had a time lapse of what a sofa with a family of kids and pets looks like over the course of 5 years while you still owe money on it.
-
https://www.carbuyingtips.com/articles/blog/how-to-avoid-upside-down-car-loans.htm
break even point on the avg 7 year loan is around year 6 ... this should not be allowed.
I remember an Armed Forces Network commercial from a few years ago showing the stupidity of financing furniture for the same reason. It had a time lapse of what a sofa with a family of kids and pets looks like over the course of 5 years while you still owe money on it.
Military folks are often terrible with $. It's really sad. I'm glad that they at least banned payday loans to military people.
-
https://www.carbuyingtips.com/articles/blog/how-to-avoid-upside-down-car-loans.htm
break even point on the avg 7 year loan is around year 6 ... this should not be allowed.
You mean should literally be illegal?
I disagree. In general, you make people worse off, not better off, by restricting their choice. I have a 5 (or maybe 6, I'm not exactly sure) year loan at 0% on my car. If they offered me a 20 year loan at 0%, I'd have taken that... :)
-
https://www.carbuyingtips.com/articles/blog/how-to-avoid-upside-down-car-loans.htm
break even point on the avg 7 year loan is around year 6 ... this should not be allowed.
I remember an Armed Forces Network commercial from a few years ago showing the stupidity of financing furniture for the same reason. It had a time lapse of what a sofa with a family of kids and pets looks like over the course of 5 years while you still owe money on it.
Financing furniture is a silly mistake to be avoided, but having children is ok? Seems like the commercial missed the point...
-
I've had a rather odd experience when buying a used car in June of 2016. My wife and I had just arrived in the US after having travelled around the world for the past more than six months, and were planning to travel around North America for three months in a minivan converted into a campervan. Thus, I did a lot of research and narrowed down my search on three specifig makes and models: Toyota Sienna 2004 or later, Honda Odyssey 2004 or later, or Kia Sedona 2006 or later. A buddy of mine recommended to check out the dealer's website and go look at their lots on a sunday since there would be no salespeople around to annoy me, which turned out to be a great idea. I ended up printing out a total of ten listings from three different dealerships across town (two Toyota, one Kia) and we went out to look at them. Only problem was we didn't find a any of'em on any of the dealers' lots.
So, the next day I went in again, handed the salesmen the respective printouts, and asked to see these cars and these cars only. Turns out not a single salesperson was able to "find them" on their lot. To this very day I don't know if they were unwilling or unable to locate them. Instead, they tried to sell me something else (read: much more expensive). After being unable to locate the cars I specifically asked for all salesmen at all three dealerships proceeded with their default spiel. First, ask the customer how much he or she wants to spend. Second, take that amount, add another two or three thousand dollars, and consider it to be a downpayment for a brand-new car. Third, present them with cars they never asked for and pull every single trick in the book to convince them why it's smarter to spend $40,000 on a brand-new car instead of the original $7,000 on a used car they came in for in the first place.
Two dealerships we ended up walking out of slamming the door behind us because we got so annoyed at their behavior it was painful. I'm still asking myself whether this trick would ever work on anyone? If I have $7,000 to spend on a car, why would I spend more than $40,000 instead? Who does that? Are people really that stupid?
-
I'm still asking myself whether this trick would ever work on anyone? If I have $7,000 to spend on a car, why would I spend more than $40,000 instead? Who does that? Are people really that stupid?
Yes, and in quantities enough to perpetuate those tactics.
I've been wondering lately if salesmen also play up the fear tactics of "you live in a snowy area, have a large vehicle you don't know how to use." The last couple major snow days we've had here (including today) have revealed the utter lack of driving knowledge in my community. Most of the accidents have been SUVs and pickup trucks going off the road. In a military city you're going to find a lot of trucks no matter where in the US you are, but I have to wonder if people are buying them not just for the man-card status, but also some fear of the weather and if the dealerships are pressuring buyers into them. I just drove my Prius through six inches of snow with barely a skid, but had to dodge a truck fishtailing down the road.
-
Another thing I've never understood: why lock people in an office for an extended period of time after they've already settled on a price? It's not as though they need to check my credit, find the keys, or do other paperwork; it's all on a computer file somewhere and it can most likely be printed out in seconds.
The next time that happens-- getting locked in a salesperson's office-- I'm going to be sorely tempted to urinate somewhere in that office just for grins and giggles.
-
Another thing I've never understood: why lock people in an office for an extended period of time after they've already settled on a price? It's not as though they need to check my credit, find the keys, or do other paperwork; it's all on a computer file somewhere and it can most likely be printed out in seconds.
The next time that happens-- getting locked in a salesperson's office-- I'm going to be sorely tempted to urinate somewhere in that office just for grins and giggles.
I assume this is hyperbole?
-
It is not. The classic maneuver is they take your car keys, for some random reason, when you come in to the dealer. Never give up your car keys unless everyone has signed a trade-in agreement.
They'll also make you wait in the office to wear you down, far too often.
Dirty tricks. Easy to fuck with them if you know what's up.
-
It is not. The classic maneuver is they take your car keys, for some random reason, when you come in to the dealer. Never give up your car keys unless everyone has signed a trade-in agreement.
They'll also make you wait in the office to wear you down, far too often.
Dirty tricks. Easy to fuck with them if you know what's up.
On our last purchase, we were in salesdude's office for about 6 hours. All negotiations happened in the first 15 minutes. We didn't budge after that. We should have left, but it was 2 hours home with no car and we didn't. We did finally get it for the price we held firm on.
-
Another thing I've never understood: why lock people in an office for an extended period of time after they've already settled on a price? It's not as though they need to check my credit, find the keys, or do other paperwork; it's all on a computer file somewhere and it can most likely be printed out in seconds.
The next time that happens-- getting locked in a salesperson's office-- I'm going to be sorely tempted to urinate somewhere in that office just for grins and giggles.
I assume this is hyperbole?
It is not. The classic maneuver is they take your car keys, for some random reason, when you come in to the dealer. Never give up your car keys unless everyone has signed a trade-in agreement.
They'll also make you wait in the office to wear you down, far too often.
Dirty tricks. Easy to fuck with them if you know what's up.
What. WHAT?! How is that not illegal? Why do people stand for it?!
Wow, I am never going to a dealer to buy a car. I will continue to purchase used vehicles from Russian individuals via CraigsList.
-
Another thing I've never understood: why lock people in an office for an extended period of time after they've already settled on a price? It's not as though they need to check my credit, find the keys, or do other paperwork; it's all on a computer file somewhere and it can most likely be printed out in seconds.
The next time that happens-- getting locked in a salesperson's office-- I'm going to be sorely tempted to urinate somewhere in that office just for grins and giggles.
I assume this is hyperbole?
It is not. The classic maneuver is they take your car keys, for some random reason, when you come in to the dealer. Never give up your car keys unless everyone has signed a trade-in agreement.
They'll also make you wait in the office to wear you down, far too often.
Dirty tricks. Easy to fuck with them if you know what's up.
What. WHAT?! How is that not illegal? Why do people stand for it?!
Wow, I am never going to a dealer to buy a car. I will continue to purchase used vehicles from Russian individuals via CraigsList.
Pretty sure it would be. A dealer can't just "take your car keys" and "lock people in an office."
I've bought from a couple of dealers and have never had any problems. I have always gone to them to look at one specific vehicle, and I never trade in.
-
They don't "just take your keys" or "just lock you in," they lie to you or convince you to willingly go along with it. It's sales tactics, not kidnapping. There's a slight difference.
-
FWIW, we've had much better luck going with small-time, independent (used car) dealers. Several years ago, we were in the market for a minivan. We went to the big dealer near us, took one for a test drive, and told them our budget. They came back with a number $2500 higher. We told them "this is how much we have to spend, sorry." They tried to do the whole four-square thing, but we were young and naive and stubborn and ignored any numbers except the OTD price, and just told 'em that our budget wasn't flexible. We walked out of there without a van that day.
-
They don't "just take your keys" or "just lock you in," they lie to you or convince you to willingly go along with it. It's sales tactics, not kidnapping. There's a slight difference.
I've never gotten caught with the key-handing-over thing. But leaving you in an office "for five minutes" while they "go talk with a manager" is normal, and they frequently lock the door behind them. If called on it, they will say it was "on accident" (not "by accident", that would be proper grammar). There's a major Ford dealership in town that's known for it. They actually got their fingers slapped a few years ago when someone they locked in called 911. (No, it wasn't me.) Obviously nobody would actually arrest or charge a major auto dealer who contributes to all the major political campaigns: it would be on par with requiring real estate developers to conform with building codes or requiring Wal-Mart to follow liquor licensing laws and procedures.
I can't say whether Bob Turner Ford actually changed what they were doing. I'm not inclined to get close enough to the quicksand to find out where the edge is.
I solve the problem by buying vehicles from people I know who do not engage in these practices. But if you just walk in off the street, you're pretty much fresh meat.
-
FWIW, we've had much better luck going with small-time, independent (used car) dealers. Several years ago, we were in the market for a minivan. We went to the big dealer near us, took one for a test drive, and told them our budget. They came back with a number $2500 higher. We told them "this is how much we have to spend, sorry." They tried to do the whole four-square thing, but we were young and naive and stubborn and ignored any numbers except the OTD price, and just told 'em that our budget wasn't flexible. We walked out of there without a van that day.
Sounds to me like you were a badass :)
It was more a matter of "we want to buy product X at price $Y, will or won't you sell us X for $Y?" situation. The salesman seemed honestly baffled and kept trying to go back to his four-square script.
While he didn't lock us in an office (they had cubicles), we did find ourselves left alone for long periods of time.
-
But leaving you in an office "for five minutes" while they "go talk with a manager" is normal, and they frequently lock the door behind them.
I wonder how often they have to replace doors that irate locked in ex-customers end up just breaking down to get out?
-
I'd call 911 if I was locked into an office and knocking on the door didn't get me out in a matter of seconds. Fire hazard! Or being held against your will. Either way- NOT cool.
But all the dealerships I dealt with had you sit in an open area, the sales guy had to keep going to "talk to his manager".
-
It is not. The classic maneuver is they take your car keys, for some random reason, when you come in to the dealer. Never give up your car keys unless everyone has signed a trade-in agreement.
They'll also make you wait in the office to wear you down, far too often.
Dirty tricks. Easy to fuck with them if you know what's up.
I brought both sets of keys with me when I was planning to trade my car. It was becoming clear that the deal wasn't going to go through, so I asked for my keys. Salesman said the used manager had them. I said. "My car is right there. Either give me my keys now, or mail them to me. You have my address. Either way, I'm leaving." Keys were in my hand in under a minute.
I suppose they could have just "lost" them, but this was back when keys were only $5 to replace at the hardware store.
-
wow great read.
Best story I have is 12+ years ago (last time I shopped for a car!) first dealer I went to wanted to run my credit and photo copy my drivers license before I had even seen any cars. I was rather "data privacy" oriented at the time and said no. Sales man did not react well to me not giving him my drivers license and I walked out shortly there after. Wonder if I would have got it back - had not considered that aspect! I think I did see a guy locked in an office and it stuck me as odd, guy did not look happy. Contributed to a bad vibe there. After I started walking out salesman followed me and was yelling at me to come back.
Next time I have to go car shopping I will take my lock pick set with me :-) Seeing the expression on the sales guys face after I 'escape' from an office would be priceless. Hell that might be worth a trip to a dealer this weekend :-) Or maybe it would be more fun to just starting making announcements over the intercom "Talk to Jim about our 2017 F150 for 5000$!!!"
-
FWIW, we've had much better luck going with small-time, independent (used car) dealers. Several years ago, we were in the market for a minivan. We went to the big dealer near us, took one for a test drive, and told them our budget. They came back with a number $2500 higher. We told them "this is how much we have to spend, sorry." They tried to do the whole four-square thing, but we were young and naive and stubborn and ignored any numbers except the OTD price, and just told 'em that our budget wasn't flexible. We walked out of there without a van that day.
We were at a dealer that did this and we discovered they had a webcam pointed at us from between some books on a shelf. Listening and watching while they left us alone. No thanks. We walked.
-
FWIW, we've had much better luck going with small-time, independent (used car) dealers. Several years ago, we were in the market for a minivan. We went to the big dealer near us, took one for a test drive, and told them our budget. They came back with a number $2500 higher. We told them "this is how much we have to spend, sorry." They tried to do the whole four-square thing, but we were young and naive and stubborn and ignored any numbers except the OTD price, and just told 'em that our budget wasn't flexible. We walked out of there without a van that day.
We were at a dealer that did this and we discovered they had a webcam pointed at us from between some books on a shelf. Listening and watching while they left us alone. No thanks. We walked.
That might be a felony in some states...might make for an interesting certified letter from an attorney a day or two later.
-
Dealer is still there but my story is probably 15 years old.
-
Dealer is still there but my story is probably 15 years old.
I'm just picturing the grainy resolution on an over-the-counter 2002 webcam/monitor set up.
-
My first new car purchase story (I’ve purchased 2 cars new but have now repented). I had just graduated with an Accounting degree. I was reading all documents they handed to me when I saw one titled “4 corners.” I told the salesman that I had just had this in business law that semester and we talked about it briefly.
The next day, the dealership’s financial office calls and tells me that my credit score wasn’t high enough and I had to put down another $1000. I not-so-politely told him that I signed the 4 corners paper and they could come get the car now. I kept the car for 8 years but told everyone I could about this incident. The dealership changed owners about a year after my purchase but there is no way I would ever buy anything from any business on that location.
-
My first new car purchase story (I’ve purchased 2 cars new but have now repented). I had just graduated with an Accounting degree. I was reading all documents they handed to me when I saw one titled “4 corners.” I told the salesman that I had just had this in business law that semester and we talked about it briefly.
The next day, the dealership’s financial office calls and tells me that my credit score wasn’t high enough and I had to put down another $1000. I not-so-politely told him that I signed the 4 corners paper and they could come get the car now. I kept the car for 8 years but told everyone I could about this incident. The dealership changed owners about a year after my purchase but there is no way I would ever buy anything from any business on that location.
Can you elaborate on the "4 corners" and why this is important?
-
My first new car purchase story (I’ve purchased 2 cars new but have now repented). I had just graduated with an Accounting degree. I was reading all documents they handed to me when I saw one titled “4 corners.” I told the salesman that I had just had this in business law that semester and we talked about it briefly.
The next day, the dealership’s financial office calls and tells me that my credit score wasn’t high enough and I had to put down another $1000. I not-so-politely told him that I signed the 4 corners paper and they could come get the car now. I kept the car for 8 years but told everyone I could about this incident. The dealership changed owners about a year after my purchase but there is no way I would ever buy anything from any business on that location.
Can you elaborate on the "4 corners" and why this is important?
I think he's talking about the four-square technique many dealers use.
https://consumerist.com/2007/03/30/dealerships-rip-you-off-with-the-four-square-heres-how-to-beat-it/
-
Thank you, I was wondering what that was all about, too. Never saw this particular sales technique in action but then again I've never purchased a new car and every used vehicle I've ever bought I did let them know straight ahead that I was paying cash. Maybe that's why they never bothered.
It just surprises me that people really are that stupid and don't even ask how long they'll be paying for. The first thing I would do in any sales pitch is get out my calculator and run the numbers. And if I ended up with a number twice or three times as much as the total cost of the car in that top right corner I'd start asking some serious questions.
-
We want to buy our first car. We research price, call to make sure they have what we want, make an appointment (!!!), show up, look around, confirm price/interest, and I say I'm willing to sign papers after a test drive.
Sales dude: "oh, you have to put down 500$ towards the cost of the car in order to be able to test drive that model." (A Honda Fit, not, like, a BMW or whatever)
Hahaha. Hahahahaha. Ha. HA.
yeah, what's about fuck no?
-
My first new car purchase story (I’ve purchased 2 cars new but have now repented). I had just graduated with an Accounting degree. I was reading all documents they handed to me when I saw one titled “4 corners.” I told the salesman that I had just had this in business law that semester and we talked about it briefly.
The next day, the dealership’s financial office calls and tells me that my credit score wasn’t high enough and I had to put down another $1000. I not-so-politely told him that I signed the 4 corners paper and they could come get the car now. I kept the car for 8 years but told everyone I could about this incident. The dealership changed owners about a year after my purchase but there is no way I would ever buy anything from any business on that location.
Can you elaborate on the "4 corners" and why this is important?
I think he's talking about the four-square technique many dealers use.
https://consumerist.com/2007/03/30/dealerships-rip-you-off-with-the-four-square-heres-how-to-beat-it/
I've heard extensively of the "four squares" as a sales gimmick, but not as a document to be signed.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyJDAPjbzRY
-
We want to buy our first car. We research price, call to make sure they have what we want, make an appointment (!!!), show up, look around, confirm price/interest, and I say I'm willing to sign papers after a test drive.
Sales dude: "oh, you have to put down 500$ towards the cost of the car in order to be able to test drive that model." (A Honda Fit, not, like, a BMW or whatever)
Hahaha. Hahahahaha. Ha. HA.
yeah, what's about fuck no?
That's freaking insane. When I test drove a BMW (my Dad wanted an opinion on the car he wanted...) they let me keep it overnight and all they did was held a copy of my drivers license. $500 to test drive a FIT?
(My Honda dealership wasn't that crazy at all, thankfully.)
-
We want to buy our first car. We research price, call to make sure they have what we want, make an appointment (!!!), show up, look around, confirm price/interest, and I say I'm willing to sign papers after a test drive.
Sales dude: "oh, you have to put down 500$ towards the cost of the car in order to be able to test drive that model." (A Honda Fit, not, like, a BMW or whatever)
Hahaha. Hahahahaha. Ha. HA.
yeah, what's about fuck no?
When the dealers know they have the hottest car(s) on the market they will take max advantage. It's business, can be perceived as being pricks. If one can't put down $500 to test drive, then they probably can't afford it, and separates the browsers from the buyers.
When the 1st Gen Honda Fit first was released in the US in mid-2006, dealers were asking $3000 over MSRP. My nearest Honda dealer is near a lareg state university campus and they had tons of Fits being bought. My wife liked it, but for a much lower price, we got a brand new redesigned 8th Gen Civic. She's still driving it.
-
I used a credit union guaranteed pricing program for the 2013 Leaf I bought last month. I waited until I found a car with the mileage, color, and price I wanted, then I reserved it and made an appointment. When the quote was confirmed, I wrote my check. The salesperson stuttered, "Wait.. you need to talk to financing first," but that was my plan.
I went into financing, and had my check ready. The financer kept trying to add warranties I didn't need (it actually came with an excellent warranty already), etc. to which I kept saying, "Well, I already wrote the check, so I guess not." Eventually she got the point, and every time she offered something (which I'm sure she was required to do), she began, "You probably don't want to write a new check for X..."
Smart woman. :) If we could have skipped it all, it would have been better, but at least she was nice about it.
-
Mezzie, she may have just been doing her job and has to try upsell each product 3 times. The bosses in the glass tower may be watching.
-
Can you elaborate on the "4 corners" and why this is important?
It stated that the sales contract was complete and that no verbal representations made are enforceable. Thus, only the terms written in the four corners of the contract are valid. Thus the salesman could tell me that the car could get 75 mpg but if I didn't have it in writing, I'd have no recourse for damages.
My business law class was a long time ago so I googled the phrase and see this comment on FindLaw.com NOTE: The number of states that accept the four corners rule is in decline. So I guess its archaic knowledge now.
-
Sales dude: "oh, you have to put down 500$ towards the cost of the car in order to be able to test drive that model." (A Honda Fit, not, like, a BMW or whatever)
Hahaha. Hahahahaha. Ha. HA.
yeah, what's about fuck no?
When the dealers know they have the hottest car(s) on the market they will take max advantage. It's business, can be perceived as being pricks. If one can't put down $500 to test drive, then they probably can't afford it, and separates the browsers from the buyers.
I can pay cash for a 911 Turbo S if I wanted to. That's not the point; I'm not interested in the time wasting or aggravation that writing a check for $500 and then getting that check back represents.
If a dealership doesn't want to let me test drive a car without playing games, the next dealer will, or the one after that. Life's too short for bullshit time-wasting games.
-
Sales dude: "oh, you have to put down 500$ towards the cost of the car in order to be able to test drive that model." (A Honda Fit, not, like, a BMW or whatever)
Hahaha. Hahahahaha. Ha. HA.
yeah, what's about fuck no?
When the dealers know they have the hottest car(s) on the market they will take max advantage. It's business, can be perceived as being pricks. If one can't put down $500 to test drive, then they probably can't afford it, and separates the browsers from the buyers.
I can pay cash for a 911 Turbo S if I wanted to. That's not the point; I'm not interested in the time wasting or aggravation that writing a check for $500 and then getting that check back represents.
If a dealership doesn't want to let me test drive a car without playing games, the next dealer will, or the one after that. Life's too short for bullshit time-wasting games.
I... can be a bit aggressive when pissed off.
My next ACTUAL move was to ask for 5 minutes to check something, and take out my cell phone and call the other Honda dealership in the city, explain the situation, and ask if they were interested in doing business with us. In front of the sales dude. And then book an appointment in front of him.
After which I hung up and was basically like "I guess that solves that, we won't be needing your help with this. Paying for a test drive is nonsense. Good luck with that sales tactic."
For the record: we bought a Honda Fit, at a reasonable price, at the second dealership, and have been driving it ever since. Love that car. But MAN I've warned everyone I can away from Dealership #1.
-
Sales dude: "oh, you have to put down 500$ towards the cost of the car in order to be able to test drive that model." (A Honda Fit, not, like, a BMW or whatever)
Hahaha. Hahahahaha. Ha. HA.
yeah, what's about fuck no?
When the dealers know they have the hottest car(s) on the market they will take max advantage. It's business, can be perceived as being pricks. If one can't put down $500 to test drive, then they probably can't afford it, and separates the browsers from the buyers.
I can pay cash for a 911 Turbo S if I wanted to. That's not the point; I'm not interested in the time wasting or aggravation that writing a check for $500 and then getting that check back represents.
If a dealership doesn't want to let me test drive a car without playing games, the next dealer will, or the one after that. Life's too short for bullshit time-wasting games.
I... can be a bit aggressive when pissed off.
My next ACTUAL move was to ask for 5 minutes to check something, and take out my cell phone and call the other Honda dealership in the city, explain the situation, and ask if they were interested in doing business with us. In front of the sales dude. And then book an appointment in front of him.
After which I hung up and was basically like "I guess that solves that, we won't be needing your help with this. Paying for a test drive is nonsense. Good luck with that sales tactic."
For the record: we bought a Honda Fit, at a reasonable price, at the second dealership, and have been driving it ever since. Love that car. But MAN I've warned everyone I can away from Dealership #1.
LOL, go you. I don't think that was aggressive. I think that was assertive.
-
Damn, this thread is pretty useful for recovering old memories :-) When the wife and I were very young, and foolish, were were at a Honda dealer, trying to trade our two year old, base model Subaru in for a new Accord. This was in the mid- 80's when Hondas were so hot that you waited for one to arrive at the dealer, and if you were an aggressive negotiator, you paid MSRP, not $1000 more. We had a $3K balance on our Subby, which wasn't too odd, since it was only $4995 to begin with. We just wanted to get out of the loan, with a $3000 trade in value and find an Accord for list. The saleslizard agreed to everything, which was odd, and offered to write it up. As we started to sign the paperwork, I found that they were trying to hide a personal loan to us, a "second mortgage" of sorts, in the pile of paperwork. When I asked what the additional $181 a month was for, they casually stated that it was to "to cover the gap between the trade value of our car and what they can realistically afford to give us fo it". I then read the document, and discovered that they were attempting to trick us into signing a ridiculously high interest rate note for the entire payoff balance on the trade. When I questioned it, and asked then if they were actually attempting to steal our trade in, they danced around and babbled a bit, but both the saleslizard and his manager knew that they were busted. We walked out, totally stunned that these two were actually attempting to commit a crime.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyJDAPjbzRY
can't believe i just watched that whole thing... I wonder what happened to the Slasher. My guess is he's in jail... again. Obviously the guy was on coke or something...
-
We want to buy our first car. We research price, call to make sure they have what we want, make an appointment (!!!), show up, look around, confirm price/interest, and I say I'm willing to sign papers after a test drive.
Sales dude: "oh, you have to put down 500$ towards the cost of the car in order to be able to test drive that model." (A Honda Fit, not, like, a BMW or whatever)
Hahaha. Hahahahaha. Ha. HA.
yeah, what's about fuck no?
When the dealers know they have the hottest car(s) on the market they will take max advantage. It's business, can be perceived as being pricks. If one can't put down $500 to test drive, then they probably can't afford it, and separates the browsers from the buyers.
When the 1st Gen Honda Fit first was released in the US in mid-2006, dealers were asking $3000 over MSRP. My nearest Honda dealer is near a lareg state university campus and they had tons of Fits being bought. My wife liked it, but for a much lower price, we got a brand new redesigned 8th Gen Civic. She's still driving it.
I assume they didn't go when the fit just launched, considering they bought one easily elsewhere.
A honda fit isn't worth mentioning the words "hot market" about ... it's an econobox. (And anyone paying over msrp for an econobox is stupid.)
I can walk into an exotics dealer tomorrow and drive a $150k car, they'll just want a copy of my license. A deposit to drive a honda fucking fit? The only thing honda makes that's hot enough to ask a deposit for is an NSX, except I bet most of those get sold without test drives (buyers really don't seem to like non-delivery miles on their supercars.)
-
A local Kia dealer is advertising to the "I spent too much on Christmas crowd."
Apparently the avg amount of time it takes people to pay off their Christmas presents is 8 months on the charge card (according to the commercial). Yikes!
So, you can roll up to $10,000 of credit card bills into your car loan if you buy a new vehicle.
No mention of rate or price on the vehicle, but I bet it's full price (or more) and a bad rate for a car loan.
-
When is the car note market going to burst?
Dealers are pulling out all the stops to roll every kind of debt into a car note. I'd guess a lot of it is not any more collateralized than credit card debt, but sold as if it's all backed by the car. ("Hey, if it's upside-down from day one, may as well add another ten grand into it, nobody will notice!")
-
When is the car note market going to burst?
Dealers are pulling out all the stops to roll every kind of debt into a car note. I'd guess a lot of it is not any more collateralized than credit card debt, but sold as if it's all backed by the car. ("Hey, if it's upside-down from day one, may as well add another ten grand into it, nobody will notice!")
+1. It's smelling like the pre-crash mortgage market.
-
When is the car note market going to burst?
Dealers are pulling out all the stops to roll every kind of debt into a car note. I'd guess a lot of it is not any more collateralized than credit card debt, but sold as if it's all backed by the car. ("Hey, if it's upside-down from day one, may as well add another ten grand into it, nobody will notice!")
Yeah, I've been wondering about that too. What next, 120-month loans? They can't continue rolling debt forever...even the banks will start to balk if there's no chance of recovering their money.
-
When is the car note market going to burst?
Dealers are pulling out all the stops to roll every kind of debt into a car note. I'd guess a lot of it is not any more collateralized than credit card debt, but sold as if it's all backed by the car. ("Hey, if it's upside-down from day one, may as well add another ten grand into it, nobody will notice!")
Yeah, I've been wondering about that too. What next, 120-month loans? They can't continue rolling debt forever...even the banks will start to balk if there's no chance of recovering their money.
According to Forbes, it's likely to continue as long as there are buyers for the bonds the banks create when they package the debt. They also claim that there is little parallel to the housing collapse, since the potential failure of this market can't have the same impact, due to investors, not the banks, holding the notes.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/08/18/john-oliver-gets-the-risks-of-sub-prime-auto-loans-completely-wrong/2/#5443bdd74cfe (http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/08/18/john-oliver-gets-the-risks-of-sub-prime-auto-loans-completely-wrong/2/#5443bdd74cfe)
-
A lot of their corporate success seems tied to their financing departments. If I remember correctly, the financial sides of the auto industry was dragging them down more than the actual manufacturers and the bailouts didn't really change this part of the industry.
-
When is the car note market going to burst?
Dealers are pulling out all the stops to roll every kind of debt into a car note. I'd guess a lot of it is not any more collateralized than credit card debt, but sold as if it's all backed by the car. ("Hey, if it's upside-down from day one, may as well add another ten grand into it, nobody will notice!")
Yeah, I've been wondering about that too. What next, 120-month loans? They can't continue rolling debt forever...even the banks will start to balk if there's no chance of recovering their money.
According to Forbes, it's likely to continue as long as there are buyers for the bonds the banks create when they package the debt. They also claim that there is little parallel to the housing collapse, since the potential failure of this market can't have the same impact, due to investors, not the banks, holding the notes.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/08/18/john-oliver-gets-the-risks-of-sub-prime-auto-loans-completely-wrong/2/#5443bdd74cfe (http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/08/18/john-oliver-gets-the-risks-of-sub-prime-auto-loans-completely-wrong/2/#5443bdd74cfe)
It may not lead to a recession but I do expect yet another bank bailout.
-
Can you elaborate on the "4 corners" and why this is important?
It stated that the sales contract was complete and that no verbal representations made are enforceable. Thus, only the terms written in the four corners of the contract are valid. Thus the salesman could tell me that the car could get 75 mpg but if I didn't have it in writing, I'd have no recourse for damages.
My business law class was a long time ago so I googled the phrase and see this comment on FindLaw.com NOTE: The number of states that accept the four corners rule is in decline. So I guess its archaic knowledge now.
No, the four corners rule is still normal law in every US jurisdiction I'm aware of. It has nothing to do with this four-square sales technique, since the four-square document is not a contract. (It's an agreement to agree: "if we come up with numbers that are satisfactory to both parties, then we will enter into a sales contract for this vehicle"--and agreements to agree are meaningless, with no legally binding power.)
The four corners rule means that what is written in the contract is all that you agreed to; you can't come back later and say, for instance, "Wait, he told me if I wasn't satisfied I could bring the car back for a full refund in 7 days," because if that's not written down within the "four corners" of the piece of paper the contract is printed on, then it's not something you guys actually agreed to.
-
I recently bought a new Hyundai. I like the car.
Sales person was easy to deal with. No hype, no drama. She did ask what I wanted for payments. I said "Zero." She smiled. I'm not a payments person.
She did start with the four square. I pushed the paper aside. I only negotiate OTD (out the door) pricing. How they write up the sales contract (which figure they put where) I don't care. I'm a bottom line person.
Passed on to the "paperwork" guy. Kept trying to sell me warranties. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. He said "XXX usually breaks on these cars so you want a longer warranty". I replied "If you know that in advance, perhaps I shouldn't buy this car." Got the deer in the headlight look.
All in all an easy process. Anytime I thought they were stalling I went for a smoke. It made them think I was leaving so they stopped stalling.
Also, zero interest from Hyundai (my credit union couldn't even match that).
-
I recently bought a new Hyundai. I like the car.
Sales person was easy to deal with. No hype, no drama. She did ask what I wanted for payments. I said "Zero." She smiled. I'm not a payments person.
She did start with the four square. I pushed the paper aside. I only negotiate OTD (out the door) pricing. How they write up the sales contract (which figure they put where) I don't care. I'm a bottom line person.
Passed on to the "paperwork" guy. Kept trying to sell me warranties. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. He said "XXX usually breaks on these cars so you want a longer warranty". I replied "If you know that in advance, perhaps I shouldn't buy this car." Got the deer in the headlight look.
All in all an easy process. Anytime I thought they were stalling I went for a smoke. It made them think I was leaving so they stopped stalling.
Also, zero interest from Hyundai (my credit union couldn't even match that).
Way to go. If I ever end up buying a new car at a dealership I'll have to remember to bring a pack of cigarettes (and my own innate stubbornness).
-
I recently bought a new Hyundai. I like the car.
Sales person was easy to deal with. No hype, no drama. She did ask what I wanted for payments. I said "Zero." She smiled. I'm not a payments person.
She did start with the four square. I pushed the paper aside. I only negotiate OTD (out the door) pricing. How they write up the sales contract (which figure they put where) I don't care. I'm a bottom line person.
Passed on to the "paperwork" guy. Kept trying to sell me warranties. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. He said "XXX usually breaks on these cars so you want a longer warranty". I replied "If you know that in advance, perhaps I shouldn't buy this car." Got the deer in the headlight look.
All in all an easy process. Anytime I thought they were stalling I went for a smoke. It made them think I was leaving so they stopped stalling.
Also, zero interest from Hyundai (my credit union couldn't even match that).
Way to go. If I ever end up buying a new car at a dealership I'll have to remember to bring a pack of cigarettes (and my own innate stubbornness).
If you don't smoke but need to play the part, you could use these:
http://www.oldtimecandy.com/walk-the-candy-aisle/candy-cigarettes/candy-cigarettes-pack
Ate tons of them as a kid.
-
A few years back I went to a dealer to buy a car with the Mrs and handed them a USAA loan certificate/check for the final price. Dealer took it back to his financial manager and he eventually came back and said they had never see this and they couldn't take it BUT if I told him the loan info from USAA they would match it. I called them out on it since it is very common to use this, asked for them to toss the plates back on the car and I would take it down the road to the Ford dealer down the road since they don't have any problems using them. Magically the financial manager "figured out" a way to make it work. Told them to pound sand and left.
-
When is the car note market going to burst?
Dealers are pulling out all the stops to roll every kind of debt into a car note. I'd guess a lot of it is not any more collateralized than credit card debt, but sold as if it's all backed by the car. ("Hey, if it's upside-down from day one, may as well add another ten grand into it, nobody will notice!")
Yeah, I've been wondering about that too. What next, 120-month loans? They can't continue rolling debt forever...even the banks will start to balk if there's no chance of recovering their money.
120 month car loans used to be available for corvettes, etc. Don't know if they still are.
-
I recently bought a new Hyundai. I like the car.
Sales person was easy to deal with. No hype, no drama. She did ask what I wanted for payments. I said "Zero." She smiled. I'm not a payments person.
She did start with the four square. I pushed the paper aside. I only negotiate OTD (out the door) pricing. How they write up the sales contract (which figure they put where) I don't care. I'm a bottom line person.
Passed on to the "paperwork" guy. Kept trying to sell me warranties. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. He said "XXX usually breaks on these cars so you want a longer warranty". I replied "If you know that in advance, perhaps I shouldn't buy this car." Got the deer in the headlight look.
All in all an easy process. Anytime I thought they were stalling I went for a smoke. It made them think I was leaving so they stopped stalling.
Also, zero interest from Hyundai (my credit union couldn't even match that).
This story is a thing of beauty. Love this.
I'm thrifty. My very first lesson on finance was at about age six.
I knew what I was willing to pay and wanted what I wanted. This is the first new car I've bought that was exactly what I wanted. I wasn't willing to bend on anything but I was willing to walk away (I haven't had a car payment since 2006) and didn't want one now but, zero interest financing and by using auto-draft, I don't even have to write a check or buy a stamp.
AND, I really do like the car. It is NICE. and........ I can get 40mpg on the interstate.
Edited to add: The absolute cherry on top; a few weeks after I bought the car, I got a check from the dealership for $205.00. It seems they put the wrong figures in the contract for TTL and the state refunded some money, to ME!!!!
-
Regarding auto loan length: we're not even close to reaching maximum length. Look to the RV and bot industry for some inspiration, where 20 year loans can reach 20 years.
Granted, these are different products with longer lifespan, but I would bet 120 month loans are around the corner.
-
We already have 8-year loans (96 months) ...
"where 20 year loans can reach 20 years. " I know what you meant, but that was a funny way of putting it.
I agree that this probably won't lead to a recession, because some lessons were learned in 2008 - namely, I doubt that people are happily writing credit default swaps on these notes with total exposures in the ten-billion range at each of a couple dozen large banks. As long as it's backed by investors, or at least investment banks without a huge amount of leverage, I don't care. And I don't see a bank bailout happening either.
Still want to know how to profit off it.
Also, what do you guys think for timelines? I don't think we'll start seeing heavy default rates until the next (possibly minor) downturn. As soon as unemployment ticks up a couple tenths of a percent, I think we'll start to see a snowball effect. Actually, do any of you guys know where to get localized data for... for example, for Texas circa ~2015 oil price crash? I saw a lot of corvettes, camaros, and trucks for very good prices in Houston/Dallas/etc at that time.
-
Guys! 120 month loans for cars already exist! The sales associate at the dealership told me he had sold a few himself!
2. Their default loan length when you ask about rates is now 72 months and they are willing to go up to at least 120 months (See item 1)
-
Regarding auto loan length: we're not even close to reaching maximum length. Look to the RV and bot industry for some inspiration, where 20 year loans can reach 20 years.
Granted, these are different products with longer lifespan, but I would bet 120 month loans are around the corner.
I believe many of these are effectively mortgages. In other words, if it has a toilet, a kitchen and a bed, I think it qualifies as a second home for tax write off purposes. (Or, to put it another way: I have had friends that did this... whether it is on the level or not, I don't really know.)
-
Keep in mind, unlike houses, cars are very repossess-able and liquid. Not hard for a bank to hire a tow truck driver to grab a car and then go auction it off. Easy to recoup say, 75% of the losses the bank might have on the car.
-
Keep in mind, unlike houses, cars are very repossess-able and liquid. Not hard for a bank to hire a tow truck driver to grab a car and then go auction it off. Easy to recoup say, 75% of the losses the bank might have on the car.
Which is exactly the point I brought up - cars are repossessable, all the other debt rolled into the car loan is not. In addition to the underwater portion of the car loan (a given, from day one, and for a couple years after), there are previous car loans that are now rolled in and backed by nothing (often a string of them), and now even other things like refinanced debt, toys to go with the car (4-wheelers, bikes, trailers, etc)...
If these car notes are still being treated as 75% recoverable with just a tow truck, things will get bad if those assumptions prove to be false.
-
It's. it a given a car will be underwater on day one (downpayment??) and I think rolling in other debt is less common than you think; at least not common enough to pose a real threat to the market.
-
Keep in mind, unlike houses, cars are very repossess-able and liquid. Not hard for a bank to hire a tow truck driver to grab a car and then go auction it off. Easy to recoup say, 75% of the losses the bank might have on the car.
Better than that, repossessed cars are often resold as the former owner, or owners, go into collections payments. John Oliver did a piece on auto loans you can watch here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U2eDJnwz_s
-
Keep in mind, unlike houses, cars are very repossess-able and liquid. Not hard for a bank to hire a tow truck driver to grab a car and then go auction it off. Easy to recoup say, 75% of the losses the bank might have on the car.
Better than that, repossessed cars are often resold as the former owner, or owners, go into collections payments. John Oliver did a piece on auto loans you can watch here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U2eDJnwz_s
Is it weird that I am more sad for the cars than the owners? All they ever wanted was a loving home and weekend drives, instead they are getting abused by a new broke idiot every 6 months.
-
Keep in mind, unlike houses, cars are very repossess-able and liquid. Not hard for a bank to hire a tow truck driver to grab a car and then go auction it off. Easy to recoup say, 75% of the losses the bank might have on the car.
Which is exactly the point I brought up - cars are repossessable, all the other debt rolled into the car loan is not. In addition to the underwater portion of the car loan (a given, from day one, and for a couple years after), there are previous car loans that are now rolled in and backed by nothing (often a string of them), and now even other things like refinanced debt, toys to go with the car (4-wheelers, bikes, trailers, etc)...
If these car notes are still being treated as 75% recoverable with just a tow truck, things will get bad if those assumptions prove to be false.
What happens to the non-car debt that is included with the loan if the car gets repossessed?
-
Auto ABS issues are up since 05:
http://www.sifma.org/uploadedfiles/research/statistics/statisticsfiles/sf-us-abs-sifma.xls?n=88831
I don't see much about synthetics though, which really exacerbated things with MBS.
-
Regarding auto loan length: we're not even close to reaching maximum length. Look to the RV and bot industry for some inspiration, where 20 year loans can reach 20 years.
Granted, these are different products with longer lifespan, but I would bet 120 month loans are around the corner.
If you think that it's tragic to watch folks screw themselves with a seven, eight, or ten year car loan, then you need to see a twenty year RV loan in action. I've bought several used RVs in the past. When it comes to motorhomes in particular, there is a whole bunch of people who end up trapped, since they spend years, often a decade or more, upside down on their loans. I have met many people, including several elderly women, who desperately needed to be rid of a motorhome, but owed thousands, to tens of thousands, more than current market value. They would typically offer really nice rigs for sale, at unreasonably inflated prices. When you engage them in a conversation, they are usually aware of the fact that they have no chance of getting anywhere near the price they are asking, but it's "what they owe" so they can't take less. It's a no win situation, they will never sell the thing at that price, and they aren't in a place where they can afford to deal with the issue. The thing is continually depreciating, and the hole they have dug for themselves keeps getting deeper.
I don't borrow money for anything with wheels, or even a foundation, but I will always be amazed at idiots who think that twenty year RV loans are anything but nuclear grade stupid.
-
Keep in mind, unlike houses, cars are very repossess-able and liquid. Not hard for a bank to hire a tow truck driver to grab a car and then go auction it off. Easy to recoup say, 75% of the losses the bank might have on the car.
Better than that, repossessed cars are often resold as the former owner, or owners, go into collections payments. John Oliver did a piece on auto loans you can watch here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U2eDJnwz_s
Is it weird that I am more sad for the cars than the owners? All they ever wanted was a loving home and weekend drives, instead they are getting abused by a new broke idiot every 6 months.
Maybe cars really like the adventure, waking up in a new garage every few months, taking brand new routes, exploring new areas of the country. Sometimes it's like, about the journey, and not just the passengers.
-
If these car notes are still being treated as 75% recoverable with just a tow truck, things will get bad if those assumptions prove to be false.
They are also only recoverable if you can find the car. Houses tend to move about less.
Idk how easy it is elsewhere for a company to get the police involved to try and find a car that is sort-of-stolen as the loan isn't being paid but it is a pain here, and if there was a flood of people not paying the car note and swapping cars with a similarly up-shit-creek friend I expect the police would just stop bothering.
-
Keep in mind, unlike houses, cars are very repossess-able and liquid. Not hard for a bank to hire a tow truck driver to grab a car and then go auction it off. Easy to recoup say, 75% of the losses the bank might have on the car.
Better than that, repossessed cars are often resold as the former owner, or owners, go into collections payments. John Oliver did a piece on auto loans you can watch here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U2eDJnwz_s
Is it weird that I am more sad for the cars than the owners? All they ever wanted was a loving home and weekend drives, instead they are getting abused by a new broke idiot every 6 months.
Maybe cars really like the adventure, waking up in a new garage every few months, taking brand new routes, exploring new areas of the country. Sometimes it's like, about the journey, and not just the passengers.
That's a sad thought. poor cars would get really bored being saddled with a boring owner like me ;-)
-
Regarding auto loan length: we're not even close to reaching maximum length. Look to the RV and bot industry for some inspiration, where 20 year loans can reach 20 years.
Granted, these are different products with longer lifespan, but I would bet 120 month loans are around the corner.
If you think that it's tragic to watch folks screw themselves with a seven, eight, or ten year car loan, then you need to see a twenty year RV loan in action. I've bought several used RVs in the past. When it comes to motorhomes in particular, there is a whole bunch of people who end up trapped, since they spend years, often a decade or more, upside down on their loans. I have met many people, including several elderly women, who desperately needed to be rid of a motorhome, but owed thousands, to tens of thousands, more than current market value. They would typically offer really nice rigs for sale, at unreasonably inflated prices. When you engage them in a conversation, they are usually aware of the fact that they have no chance of getting anywhere near the price they are asking, but it's "what they owe" so they can't take less. It's a no win situation, they will never sell the thing at that price, and they aren't in a place where they can afford to deal with the issue. The thing is continually depreciating, and the hole they have dug for themselves keeps getting deeper.
I don't borrow money for anything with wheels, or even a foundation, but I will always be amazed at idiots who think that twenty year RV loans are anything but nuclear grade stupid.
These 20 year loans must be how I see $60K RVs parked next to $90K homes around here (flyover country).
-
If these car notes are still being treated as 75% recoverable with just a tow truck, things will get bad if those assumptions prove to be false.
They are also only recoverable if you can find the car. Houses tend to move about less.
Idk how easy it is elsewhere for a company to get the police involved to try and find a car that is sort-of-stolen as the loan isn't being paid elsewhere but it is a pain here, and if there was a flood of people not paying the car note and swapping cars with a similarly up-shit-creek friend I expect the police would just stop bothering.
In the US a lot of used car dealerships now require a location GPS to be installed for the length of the loan.
-
I'm sure with a bit of motivation and creativity a person could remove that GPS if they were so motivated. The sales agreement probably forbids it but if you are wrapped up in owning a particular car that you can't afford...
-
If these car notes are still being treated as 75% recoverable with just a tow truck, things will get bad if those assumptions prove to be false.
They are also only recoverable if you can find the car. Houses tend to move about less.
Idk how easy it is elsewhere for a company to get the police involved to try and find a car that is sort-of-stolen as the loan isn't being paid elsewhere but it is a pain here, and if there was a flood of people not paying the car note and swapping cars with a similarly up-shit-creek friend I expect the police would just stop bothering.
In the US a lot of used car dealerships now require a location GPS to be installed for the length of the loan.
Wow, that sounds like a much cheaper option than lending tens of thousand dollars responsibly.
-
If these car notes are still being treated as 75% recoverable with just a tow truck, things will get bad if those assumptions prove to be false.
They are also only recoverable if you can find the car. Houses tend to move about less.
Idk how easy it is elsewhere for a company to get the police involved to try and find a car that is sort-of-stolen as the loan isn't being paid elsewhere but it is a pain here, and if there was a flood of people not paying the car note and swapping cars with a similarly up-shit-creek friend I expect the police would just stop bothering.
In the US a lot of used car dealerships now require a location GPS to be installed for the length of the loan.
Ehh, pretty sure that's only the "buy here pay here" low end kind of sketchy used car dealerships. Reputable normal places do no such thing.
-
My next ACTUAL move was to ask for 5 minutes to check something, and take out my cell phone and call the other Honda dealership in the city, explain the situation, and ask if they were interested in doing business with us. In front of the sales dude. And then book an appointment in front of him.
After which I hung up and was basically like "I guess that solves that, we won't be needing your help with this. Paying for a test drive is nonsense. Good luck with that sales tactic."
Epic!
I had a great dealer experience when buying my last car. (actually the only new car my DW and me ever owned).
Step 1. Go online, configure car as we'd like it.
Step 2. Pay a $2000 deposit.
Step 3. Get email that our order is confirmed
Step 4. Get email that our car is being produced
Step 5. Get eamil that our car is in transit.
Step 6. Get phone call to arrange pickup and registration details.
And finally show up on location, hand over cheque for the car. Get the keys and have the cellphone setup and drive home. Take a big detour and show the car to our families.
Best experience ever.
What manufacturer was this? You would think this would be more common. Considering how much people spend on new cars you'd expect them to demand they get exactly the color/trim/options that they want.
We tried to "order" a Volkswagen. I started with e-mailing the dealer and setting up a test drive for a 2015 GTI. We liked it, but wanted a specific configuration (4-doors, base trim, white, DSG, lighting package) which they weren't able to source from an existing build. So we requested they order one like that and I followed up with an e-mail confirming the expected options and price. About three months later our car had arrived. They had added several options we did not ask for (window tint, cargo organizer, wheel locks, etc.) totally nearly $1000, if I recall correctly. There was also an arbitrary marketing fee or something for maybe $200. We tried to negotiate the price back down to what I thought we had already agreed on, but couldn't come close. We walked. It took them a few more months before they were able to eventually sell that car.
We also went to look at the new Mazda 3 hatchback. I found online that the local dealer had a base trim with manual transmission in a nice color. Much cheaper than the GTI too. Showed up to that dealer unannounced and told the first salesman that walked up to me the specific car (with lot ID number) that we wanted to test drive. He then proceeded to talk to us about what we wanted in a car for what felt like 10-15 minutes before pulling out the car... The Mazda 3 was fine, but not as nice as the GTI we had just test driven. We got a quote just to see, but I wish we had just walked after the test drive. The guy took forever to get us our quote and tried to pressure us into making a deal. I'm glad we didn't even try to negotiate for that car, because that dealer is known for tacking on a lot of unnecessary options (window tint, "desert protection package", etc.).
-
Regarding auto loan length: we're not even close to reaching maximum length. Look to the RV and bot industry for some inspiration, where 20 year loans can reach 20 years.
Granted, these are different products with longer lifespan, but I would bet 120 month loans are around the corner.
If you think that it's tragic to watch folks screw themselves with a seven, eight, or ten year car loan, then you need to see a twenty year RV loan in action. I've bought several used RVs in the past. When it comes to motorhomes in particular, there is a whole bunch of people who end up trapped, since they spend years, often a decade or more, upside down on their loans. I have met many people, including several elderly women, who desperately needed to be rid of a motorhome, but owed thousands, to tens of thousands, more than current market value. They would typically offer really nice rigs for sale, at unreasonably inflated prices. When you engage them in a conversation, they are usually aware of the fact that they have no chance of getting anywhere near the price they are asking, but it's "what they owe" so they can't take less. It's a no win situation, they will never sell the thing at that price, and they aren't in a place where they can afford to deal with the issue. The thing is continually depreciating, and the hole they have dug for themselves keeps getting deeper.
I don't borrow money for anything with wheels, or even a foundation, but I will always be amazed at idiots who think that twenty year RV loans are anything but nuclear grade stupid.
These 20 year loans must be how I see $60K RVs parked next to $90K homes around here (flyover country).
Bingo. We have a neighbor who works a blue collar, fair paying job, with a wife who has a part time, low paying job, maybe a combined $70K in a good year. He is obsessed with new vehicle purchases and never keeps a new pickup truck, or his wife's SUV, for more than a 18 months or so, until they get traded for another brand new one. We watched him buy well over a 1/4 million worth of new cars in a decade. There is no savings, no retirement plan, and the whole situation is a mess. He decided to retire in his late 50s, and determined that he better get a new motorhome while he still had income to qualify for the loan, since he was sick of working.( yea............let that sink in a bit) He borrows $65K or so, on a new, low end, unreliable, poorly built, piece of shit. (This product being the #1 selling Class A unit sold in the US at the moment, BTW) He then retires on a low, and unreliable pension from a company that is terribly unstable, and likely to fail to uphold their pension obligation. He can't collect his SS yet, and never knows when his wife will lose family health care benefits, since she has a union job that is constantly in jeopardy. The house is paid off, but located in one of the highest R.E tax school districts in the country. There are two car loans and a 20 year mortgage on the POS motorhome. I seriously doubt that his income is enough to cover the three vehicle loans, much less a health care plan, if she loses coverage. The wife continues in her very low paying job, unable to leave him, since she just cant' afford to, and the whole mess slowly slides toward the edge of the cliff.
So, yes, your observations are correct. There are lots of folks in the heartland who think nothing of taking a 20 year mortgage on a motorhome that they can't afford, and should of never even thought of buying. The only reason that the industry breaks sales records year after year is stupid people who bite on the, "it's only $495 a month to enjoy this lifestyle" bullshit.
-
So, yes, your observations are correct. There are lots of folks in the heartland who think nothing of taking a 20 year mortgage on a motorhome that they can't afford, and should of never even thought of buying. The only reason that the industry breaks sales records year after year is stupid people who bite on the, "it's only $495 a month to enjoy this lifestyle" bullshit.
I wonder what motorhome expenses really *are* like, just owning it or even living in it full-time. I've fantasized about being a full-time RV'er more than once and it strikes me as possibly a good way to retire. Just take off with the canary and the Chihuahua, and see the world. But maintenance couldn't possibly be cheap or easy.
-
So, yes, your observations are correct. There are lots of folks in the heartland who think nothing of taking a 20 year mortgage on a motorhome that they can't afford, and should of never even thought of buying. The only reason that the industry breaks sales records year after year is stupid people who bite on the, "it's only $495 a month to enjoy this lifestyle" bullshit.
I wonder what motorhome expenses really *are* like, just owning it or even living in it full-time. I've fantasized about being a full-time RV'er more than once and it strikes me as possibly a good way to retire. Just take off with the canary and the Chihuahua, and see the world. But maintenance couldn't possibly be cheap or easy.
Neighbor owned one and he was constantly fixing things on it and then winter would come around and he would pay to "winterize" it (Couple hundred $$), then pay to get it ready for spring (Couple hundred $$). There was always something to fix (leaks, seals, trim, electronics, etc...) He was venting to me one day about the constant multi-hundred dollar bills he was dropping. He would drive to Texas ($500 in fuel one way) and park it on a lot ($30 per day) while he was down there. It was incredible the expenses for those, almost +$10k per year to maintain and use on a regular basis for him.
-
So, yes, your observations are correct. There are lots of folks in the heartland who think nothing of taking a 20 year mortgage on a motorhome that they can't afford, and should of never even thought of buying. The only reason that the industry breaks sales records year after year is stupid people who bite on the, "it's only $495 a month to enjoy this lifestyle" bullshit.
I wonder what motorhome expenses really *are* like, just owning it or even living in it full-time. I've fantasized about being a full-time RV'er more than once and it strikes me as possibly a good way to retire. Just take off with the canary and the Chihuahua, and see the world. But maintenance couldn't possibly be cheap or easy.
I have a ten year old, gas engine class A rig. A similar new one would run about $100K, I bought it three years ago, in pristine condition, with low miles, for $44K. It depreciates at least $5K a year, at this time. If I had to dump it quick, I would expect to see a check for about $25K from a dealer. Unless you are very unmustachian, you really have no choice but to do your own maintenance, and any repair you can handle. The two big reasons for this is that labor rates at dealers and stationary repair garages are insane, with $125 to $150/HR being common. Mobile repair services are a lot better option, at roughly half that rate. Repairs at dealers can often turn into nightmares featuring incompetent service, obscene prices, and long delays. The Camping World chain is probably the best example of this, with the enthusiast sites full of horror stories of waiting months for expensive repairs, often done repeatedly, without success.
I do nearly everything on my rig. This year I had professionals replace the windshield ($1850) and service/repair the transmission and cooling system (a bit over $1K) other than that, oil changes, Lube, repairs to everything from the fridge, and AC to a slide out gear drive, have been DIY. Using dealer hourly rates, I probably did a minimum of $5-7K worth of DIY work in repairs and maintenance so far, at a fraction of that cost. I also flipped the interior, with new flooring ,counter tops and reupholstery. It was mostly DIY, with $15K in upgrades for less than $3K in material, and subcontracting.
Bottom line? I really enjoy the lifestyle, but from a strictly financial perspective, it's a foolish thing to do, that I can easily afford. The DW and I have spent at least 80% of the last two years living in the thing, and have been true full timers since we sold our house at the end of last summer. We are coming to the end of the tour at this point, and will be settling on a "sticks and bricks" home at the end of the month. We are both in agreement that we are not sure of how long we will hold on to this RV, but it will definitely be our last motorhome. We spent a decade and a half owning, and wearing out, inexpensive travel trailers. In comparison, motorhomes are money eating machines, LOL. As for the lifestyle in general, it can be really inexpensive, or a great way to spend vast sums, depending on what you want out of it.There are single folks out there that are happy and live well on $1500 a month, and couples who have motorhome mortgages that are more than that, since they drive the latest $400 K diesel powered palaces. Accommodations can be free, or a prime site in a prime location can run thousands of dollars a month, it's all up to you.
-
Offering financing for anything longer than 36 months.
too many people fall into the trap of "oh it is ONLY this per month, I can afford that! Not realizing that it is only that amount for the next 5-9 years. I have seen offers for 96 months!
I just saw on another post a guy asking which student loan to pay off first and then later said he was going to finance a $35k for 72 months.
-
So, yes, your observations are correct. There are lots of folks in the heartland who think nothing of taking a 20 year mortgage on a motorhome that they can't afford, and should of never even thought of buying. The only reason that the industry breaks sales records year after year is stupid people who bite on the, "it's only $495 a month to enjoy this lifestyle" bullshit.
I wonder what motorhome expenses really *are* like, just owning it or even living in it full-time. I've fantasized about being a full-time RV'er more than once and it strikes me as possibly a good way to retire. Just take off with the canary and the Chihuahua, and see the world. But maintenance couldn't possibly be cheap or easy.
Neighbor owned one and he was constantly fixing things on it and then winter would come around and he would pay to "winterize" it (Couple hundred $$), then pay to get it ready for spring (Couple hundred $$). There was always something to fix (leaks, seals, trim, electronics, etc...) He was venting to me one day about the constant multi-hundred dollar bills he was dropping. He would drive to Texas ($500 in fuel one way) and park it on a lot ($30 per day) while he was down there. It was incredible the expenses for those, almost +$10k per year to maintain and use on a regular basis for him.
This is a pretty typical experience. Unfortunately, if you can't or won't pick up a wrench, your going to have a pretty rough go of it. Winterizing takes me $8 in food grade antifreeze, and fifteen minutes of my time, it doesn't take a single tool, or half a clue, to do the job. If I could find a dealer who could fit me in the schedule, I would expect no less than a $150 bill for the service. Most service and repairs preformed by a seasoned, mechanically inclined RVer are things that take less than $100 in parts (often no money at all) and would generate a minimum of a $3-800 bill at a big, slick dealership. I have repeatedly repaired my fridge and water heater, as in a total of five times, and still haven't reached $150 in parts. I learned everything I needed to know on youtube. Had I taken it to the dealer, it would of been $2000-2500 for the work, since the first thing they say after you report an issue with a major appliance is, "it's probably shot, and needs to be replaced".
-
I had a great dealer experience when buying my last car. (actually the only new car my DW and me ever owned).
Step 1. Go online, configure car as we'd like it.
Step 2. Pay a $2000 deposit.
Step 3. Get email that our order is confirmed
Step 4. Get email that our car is being produced
Step 5. Get eamil that our car is in transit.
Step 6. Get phone call to arrange pickup and registration details.
And finally show up on location, hand over cheque for the car. Get the keys and have the cellphone setup and drive home. Take a big detour and show the car to our families.
Best experience ever.
What manufacturer was this? You would think this would be more common. Considering how much people spend on new cars you'd expect them to demand they get exactly the color/trim/options that they want.
[/quote]
We bought a Tesla Model S 85. Service, sales and the car is awesome.
-
I had a great dealer experience when buying my last car. (actually the only new car my DW and me ever owned).
Step 1. Go online, configure car as we'd like it.
Step 2. Pay a $2000 deposit.
Step 3. Get email that our order is confirmed
Step 4. Get email that our car is being produced
Step 5. Get eamil that our car is in transit.
Step 6. Get phone call to arrange pickup and registration details.
And finally show up on location, hand over cheque for the car. Get the keys and have the cellphone setup and drive home. Take a big detour and show the car to our families.
Best experience ever.
What manufacturer was this? You would think this would be more common. Considering how much people spend on new cars you'd expect them to demand they get exactly the color/trim/options that they want.
We bought a Tesla Model S 85. Service, sales and the car is awesome.
I would have guessed Tesla. :)
-
I had a great dealer experience when buying my last car. (actually the only new car my DW and me ever owned).
Step 1. Go online, configure car as we'd like it.
Step 2. Pay a $2000 deposit.
Step 3. Get email that our order is confirmed
Step 4. Get email that our car is being produced
Step 5. Get eamil that our car is in transit.
Step 6. Get phone call to arrange pickup and registration details.
And finally show up on location, hand over cheque for the car. Get the keys and have the cellphone setup and drive home. Take a big detour and show the car to our families.
Best experience ever.
What manufacturer was this? You would think this would be more common. Considering how much people spend on new cars you'd expect them to demand they get exactly the color/trim/options that they want.
We bought a Tesla Model S 85. Service, sales and the car is awesome.
I would have guessed Tesla. :)
Stupid left coast hippies and there customer centric business methods!
-
I had a great dealer experience when buying my last car. (actually the only new car my DW and me ever owned).
Step 1. Go online, configure car as we'd like it.
Step 2. Pay a $2000 deposit.
Step 3. Get email that our order is confirmed
Step 4. Get email that our car is being produced
Step 5. Get eamil that our car is in transit.
Step 6. Get phone call to arrange pickup and registration details.
And finally show up on location, hand over cheque for the car. Get the keys and have the cellphone setup and drive home. Take a big detour and show the car to our families.
Best experience ever.
What manufacturer was this? You would think this would be more common. Considering how much people spend on new cars you'd expect them to demand they get exactly the color/trim/options that they want.
We bought a Tesla Model S 85. Service, sales and the car is awesome.
I would have guessed Tesla. :)
Stupid left coast hippies and there customer centric business methods!
Lexus service is ridiculous, too. I bought a used one last year and it didn't have license plate screws with it - I stopped by a Lexus dealer and the guy I found inside just gave me a couple from his desk. They will also send you an owner's manual for free, if you need one.
-
I had a great dealer experience when buying my last car. (actually the only new car my DW and me ever owned).
Step 1. Go online, configure car as we'd like it.
Step 2. Pay a $2000 deposit.
Step 3. Get email that our order is confirmed
Step 4. Get email that our car is being produced
Step 5. Get eamil that our car is in transit.
Step 6. Get phone call to arrange pickup and registration details.
And finally show up on location, hand over cheque for the car. Get the keys and have the cellphone setup and drive home. Take a big detour and show the car to our families.
Best experience ever.
What manufacturer was this? You would think this would be more common. Considering how much people spend on new cars you'd expect them to demand they get exactly the color/trim/options that they want.
We bought a Tesla Model S 85. Service, sales and the car is awesome.
I would have guessed Tesla. :)
Stupid left coast hippies and there customer centric business methods!
Lexus service is ridiculous, too. I bought a used one last year and it didn't have license plate screws with it - I stopped by a Lexus dealer and the guy I found inside just gave me a couple from his desk. They will also send you an owner's manual for free, if you need one.
My mom's Lexus dealer will drive from quite far away in a new Lexus, leave the new Lexus (and keys) with my mom, drive her car back to the dealer for oil change and maintenance, etc, and then drive back and switch cars again. And the service costs the same as it would if you just showed up and sat in their lounge while they performed it. Unreal. My next car will almost certainly be a Lexus due to their quality and service.
-
So, yes, your observations are correct. There are lots of folks in the heartland who think nothing of taking a 20 year mortgage on a motorhome that they can't afford, and should of never even thought of buying. The only reason that the industry breaks sales records year after year is stupid people who bite on the, "it's only $495 a month to enjoy this lifestyle" bullshit.
I wonder what motorhome expenses really *are* like, just owning it or even living in it full-time. I've fantasized about being a full-time RV'er more than once and it strikes me as possibly a good way to retire. Just take off with the canary and the Chihuahua, and see the world. But maintenance couldn't possibly be cheap or easy.
Neighbor owned one and he was constantly fixing things on it and then winter would come around and he would pay to "winterize" it (Couple hundred $$), then pay to get it ready for spring (Couple hundred $$). There was always something to fix (leaks, seals, trim, electronics, etc...) He was venting to me one day about the constant multi-hundred dollar bills he was dropping. He would drive to Texas ($500 in fuel one way) and park it on a lot ($30 per day) while he was down there. It was incredible the expenses for those, almost +$10k per year to maintain and use on a regular basis for him.
I promised myself I would never own a boat or an RV that I could not get inside out of the weather. I've worked on several examples of both that just rotted away out in the weather. Tarp covers helped somewhat but eventually a pinhole in the cover develops unnoticed and the rain gets in.
I have always suspected that most "big boy toys" died from the effects of the weather rather than miles or hours on the engine.
-
I promised myself I would never own a boat or an RV that I could not get inside out of the weather. I've worked on several examples of both that just rotted away out in the weather. Tarp covers helped somewhat but eventually a pinhole in the cover develops unnoticed and the rain gets in.
I have always suspected that most "big boy toys" died from the effects of the weather rather than miles or hours on the engine.
Absolutely. Many are unaware that tires become unsafe due to degrading with age and sun exposure. After seven years, or so, tires really need to be replaced, regardless of age. So for the typical motorhome owner, they are replacing them at a cost of $2-6K when they are nearly new, tread wise. The other weather effect is that many are felled by leaks, particularly roof leaks. When you spot issues in the interior, it tends to be an iceberg situation, since 90% of the damage is already done, and hidden in the structure. Motorhome engines, especially gas ones, can be tricky, much like ambulances and other municipal vehicles, they may have low hours, but they are typically hard, ugly hours of being pushed to get a rolling house down the road.
-
Anyone here ever rent an RV?
Always wondered how affordable and how clean that RV might be. My imagination serves up visions of a very cheap motel room on wheels in condition, though not price.
-
Don't buy an RV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_u2JR51_Y
-
Anyone here ever rent an RV?
Always wondered how affordable and how clean that RV might be. My imagination serves up visions of a very cheap motel room on wheels in condition, though not price.
I have twice. The first time was when I was romanticizing about how nice it would be to have a travel trailer. Imagine, just being able to back the truck up, hook up the hitch and wires, and be on the go! So I rented a 19' trailer and set off for a week. I found out that for me, it was just OK. No bad, but not good enough to drop the cash on one. I would happily take one for free though.
The second time was when a buddy and I wanted to go ride through Arkansas for a week. We looked into hotel rooms, but we both really wanted to be more outdoors in the evenings. We looked at cabins, but it would require towing the motorcycles in order to take the right camping gear for a week. Besides, my buddy really isn't into camping, but wanted more outdoor than a cabin. We rented an RV that both bikes fit into. It was great! We got to our destination in comfort, had AC at night and a nice shower in the morning.
I think that RV's are perfect rental items. Yes, it is more expensive than a hotel room or pitching a tent, but more enjoyable if you are traveling with folks who are not into full blown camping. Besides, I stay in enough hotels for work. As far as cleanliness, I did not find that to be a problem. Bring your own bedding and wipe down the surfaces with your favorite antimicrobial product if you want. Some RV's come with dishes, some don't. Both times I was able to walk through the unit before plopping down the deposit for the reservation.
-
We rented a small RV about 1.5 years ago to do a little camping with our baby back when she was the world's worst sleeper. I had romantic notions of what fun it would be based on the great fun we had as a family with our tent trailer when I was a kid. The RV was okay but a massive pain in the butt to drive. It is definitely not something I would do again but I do look forward to renting a tent trailer one day.
-
It's. it a given a car will be underwater on day one (downpayment??) and I think rolling in other debt is less common than you think; at least not common enough to pose a real threat to the market.
I want actual numbers about rolled-in debt. I don't know how common it is. I think it's too common for it not to be taken into account - but I don't like to guess, I want to see!
I'm sure with a bit of motivation and creativity a person could remove that GPS if they were so motivated. The sales agreement probably forbids it but if you are wrapped up in owning a particular car that you can't afford...
The GPS + interlock units are fairly easy to remove ...... if you know what you're doing. Dealers will never touch them, and most independent mechanics don't want to touch them because they don't want to deal with potential fall-out. Not to mention that some of them are the ones who actually install them in the first place. (Some independents really enjoy playing both sides - charge $150 to install one, then a week later charge $150 to remove it.)
They tend to be more complex than the average idiot can deal with. It's more than just unplugging it or popping a fuse.
The two big reasons for this is that labor rates at dealers and stationary repair garages are insane, with $125 to $150/HR being common.
Hah! I've been paying $100/hr or more in hourly labor for normal cars. $125 or $150/hr is totally reasonable... where I live. Actually, my preferred independent shop is known for RV repair.
That said, of course doing work yourself is great. In my shadetree experience, I'm about 3x slower than professionals - well, maybe 2x slower on simple things, maybe 5x slower on complex things I've never done. Based on my hourly post-tax post-savings rate (that is, disposable income), one hour of shop labor is around five hours of my time. So I figure I never lose on a job unless I fuck something up in the process.
RVs have a great benefit of being big and sitting tall, so you can easily get under one. On the down side, they're much heavier, so if you need to lift it, you need a much meatier jack and much much meatier jack stands.
I wonder what motorhome expenses really *are* like, just owning it or even living in it full-time. I've fantasized about being a full-time RV'er more than once and it strikes me as possibly a good way to retire. Just take off with the canary and the Chihuahua, and see the world. But maintenance couldn't possibly be cheap or easy.
On a somewhat different note, having criss-crossed the country a bunch of times over the past five years, I always recommend alternatives to RVs.
If you want a car you can live out of long-term, I would highly recommend a van or a pickup truck with one of those bed-mounted house thingies. Camper vans are the cheaper way to do it, but you'll need to put in a lot of sweat equity. Alternatively, a modern-small pickup truck (so like a Tacoma, which I believe is the smaller one between that and the Tundra) with another ten-ish grand for the thing you stick in the bed of the truck... it has surprisingly a lot inside. Everything you need, and it comes all ready to go, turnkey. But more expensive, obviously.
Why do I recommend this over an RV, completely ignoring costs?
In short: size, weight, capability, fuel, and power-to-weight (including courtesy). Let me explain.
Size: Many, and I mean _many_ of the best places in this country either prohibit RVs, or highly discourage RVs, or make RVs inconvenient. Basically every single national park has areas where RVs are either not permitted at all, or where there is special RV parking off to the side, or where RVs are allowed if under a certain size but highly not recommended. In addition, parking is always going to be a hassle. In addition, some roads with no posted signs are going to be a huge hassle due to being too narrow to want to drive an RV on it. And when I say some roads, I again mean many of the best roads in the best places.
Weight: These things are heavy, which makes everything more complex. From servicing to not being allowed on certain bridges to not being able to take sharp corners at a reasonable pace.
Capability: RVs suck at off-roading. Sure, you have decent ground clearance, but you're not going to be able to take many of the more popular off-road roads because... well, no can do, between being top-heavy, not having a proper suspension, etc. While you can find capable RVs, it's way easier to get a capable truck, or a camper van (stock or with a couple inch lift kit.) Not to mention that they're easy to get stuck, due to being heavier. And if you want AWD to make it easier, that's cost again.
Fuel: Ties back into weight. You'll burn a lot of fuel.
Power-to-weight: This is my final point, and it's one that (along with size) affects not just you but everyone else. Generally speaking, RVs have shit engines. It used to be that you could easily buy an RV with a big block 454, and with a bit of work and a thousand bucks you could get the fucker to make 350 (modern-rated) horsepower. Now, a lot of people here will scoff - what do you need so much power for? The weight, of course. These things are heavy as fuck. Try driving one without a big engine up a big hill. You go slower and slower, struggling to maintain speed. The thing downshifts to get you up, so you're burning fuel and heating up the engine and transmission a shitload. And the most beautiful parts of this country tend to be either mountainous, or have large ascents or descents. Basically every national park has areas where you need to be able to go up-hill. And again, size - you can't take corners for shit. So you'll be the asshole driving in Yosemite at 23 mph with two dozen cars behind you. And you're already making terrible time, so if you're like too goddamn many RV drivers, you don't use the turnouts, and you just piss everyone off, including me, so this is my selfish plea: don't get an RV unless you're courteous and you can drive quickly up hills and around corners.
RV owners tend to annoy me, RV renters tend to infuriate me. They're even worse about courtesy. I almost never go out for a fun drive in some lovely part of the country without getting stuck for miles behind an RV. All I pray for is a tenth of a mile of visibility and no upcoming traffic and no cops, because to put it bluntly, I've given up waiting for a sign of courtesy - I just put the hammer down and go.
Now, camper vans and trucks, properly outfitted, have few to none of these issues. Much better on gas. Can go off-road. Can take corners. Can go up hills. Can park anywhere. Can drive through narrows. Etc.
Of course, I also believe that RVs are too soft. Then again, I sleep in my corvette these days, so maybe my idea of what too much luxury is is different from yours.
-
The two big reasons for this is that labor rates at dealers and stationary repair garages are insane, with $125 to $150/HR being common.
Hah! I've been paying $100/hr or more in hourly labor for normal cars. $125 or $150/hr is totally reasonable... where I live. Actually, my preferred independent shop is known for RV repair.
RVs have a great benefit of being big and sitting tall, so you can easily get under one. On the down side, they're much heavier, so if you need to lift it, you need a much meatier jack and much much meatier jack stands.
Labor rates on RVs have nothing in common with auto rates. First, repairing a car is usually a well defined process, with flat rate guides and other data available to determine time required and fair market value. Second, car mechanics tend to be a whole other, often quite superior breed, when compared to RV techs. Car mechanics tend to be properly trained, and have a lot of skin in the game, including certifications, continuing education, and tens of thousands of dollars of their own tools by their side. RV techs, can and often are, low paid helpers who tear through your RV while being loosely supervised by a knowledgeable tech. They may do the job efficiently, and competently the first time, or not. It doesn't matter, since you are often being billed for a $12/hr helper, and are paying a rate of 10-15 X his hourly rate, regardless of how well the job goes. I avoid getting raped by these outfits unless it's a dire emergency. A good example is a repair I did to a slide out mechanism. I had several mobile mechanics and a dealers who were not interested in doing the work. One estimated that it would involve removing the slide from the unit (forklift, straps, several employees involved) and be billed for at least a day's labor. I did it myself. The parts were under $20, and it took me three hours, without removing the slide.
As for Motorhomes in particular, being easy to service, since they have lots of room underneath, maybe, maybe not. My class A gas engine model sits up high, with a ton of space under. I'm parked next to a similar rig, on the same chassis, I couldn't hope to fit under that one. The class C van front rigs are not only heavy, but often ride extremely low to the ground. Not much of a concern for most DIYers, generally, since most of what breaks and falls apart is located everywhere but underneath.
-
I bought a new-to-me minivan yesterday. The more I read these stories, the easier my time at the dealership looks! My saleslady got me basic estimated financing numbers (just to see), which we both promptly laughed lightly over and I asked if a business check would work. She said that indeed it would, and we'd be set after it cleared the bank and they did the registration etc. "You're the first person I haven't had to explain why there's a delay." WTF? Only frequent readership of the wall of shame prepared me for her nearly tearing up with joy at not having to explain why they would have to wait for a check to clear the bank. How do people not get that until it clears the bank, it's just a piece of paper that you can't be sure will magically transform into money? o_O
[Side note: totally unmustachian, but the slightly higher price is TOTALLY worth it to NOT be the one at the 7th circle of hell known as the RI DMV].
-
The time I bought my last car was kind-of bizarre.
I did my research beforehand on the car I wanted, and searched the local dealers on their official used car program. Best value seemed to be one at a garage not too far away - 2 years old, 15,000 miles on the clock, £9000. Double what I'd ever spent on a car before that, but what the hell. So, I booked in a test drive and paid them a visit.
The car was in good condition, the test drive was fine. The car had something like £9500 on the sticker, so they were already giving a bit of an Internet discount. So, then we go inside to talk about money.
They offer me a pretty insulting trade-in on my old car - something like £100 for a 7 year old car. My car was a bit of a lemon, admittedly, but still! Hah! I decline to take up their trade-in offer, and decide to sell it privately myself.
They want to run a financing quote for me. I don't need financing - I've got the money ready to go in my bank account, and can pay by debit card here and now. They ask if they can run a quote anyway. I shrug - "Sure, if you like."
They come back with a quote where I'm paying over 10% interest. Hmm, no thanks. As I'd only be getting 2% interest or so on my savings, that seems pretty pointless.
"But wouldn't you rather keep your money available in your bank account getting interest?"
"Er, no, not really."
He actually got out a calculator then, and calculated how much interest I'd be getting on my money at 2% over 5 years. I give him a "Do I really look that stupid?" look.
By this point, I'm getting a bit pissed off. I say that I want to go home and think about it, just because he's so annoying.
"Is there anything we can do to convince you to buy the car today?" he responds.
Ha! Well, there's only one answer to that question, isn't there. "You could knock a bit off the price." I wasn't planning on haggling, but if you insist.
So he talks to his manager and they agree to pay for a free year's road tax (£110). Fair enough. I agree to buy the car. Yay!
He prints out an invoice. Total at the bottom is £12,500. Huh? "Well, there's the extended warranty, alloy wheel insurance, breakdown cover, paint scratch insurance, blah blah blah."
"I don't want any of this. Can you take it off, please?"
He did, but he made me write a written explanation of why not. Sigh. I actually had to write "Not worth the money" six times and sign it. Finally, he let me actually pay for my car and leave.
Why do they make it so hard for you to give them your money? Do people really fall for this stuff?
Still, it's been over three years now, and I'm happy with the car. It hasn't got much power - but it's a hypermiler's dream (small 1.4 litre engine, wide spaced gears, manual transmission of course). I get 45MPG about (Imperial) on average, and up to 60MPG if I hypermile it (and it's a normal-sized car, petrol, not a hybrid). And the only thing that's needed replacing in that time (apart from disposables like tyres, oil, filters, windscreen wipers) is the coil pack, which I replaced myself.
One thing that did annoy me though, was that in order to fit a new stereo you have to get a huge kit that replaces what seems like half the dash, and has computer bits in it to simulate the car stuff that the manufacturer hid in the radio. My new stereo cost £150, but the fitting kit cost £190 on its own! Stupid modern cars. Facepunch needed to the designer there, I think.
-
He prints out an invoice. Total at the bottom is £12,500. Huh? "Well, there's the extended warranty, alloy wheel insurance, breakdown cover, paint scratch insurance, blah blah blah."
"I don't want any of this. Can you take it off, please?"
He did, but he made me write a written explanation of why not. Sigh. I actually had to write "Not worth the money" six times and sign it. Finally, he let me actually pay for my car and leave.
Why do they make it so hard for you to give them your money? Do people really fall for this stuff?
Yes, they do, in droves. For a lot of people, they even know they are getting screwed, they just can't handle the social/etc. pressure of the situation.
You reminded me of one thing that happened to me when buying a car. I negotiate the deal, agree on a price, and get sent to the "finance office". Of course, the "finance office" was actually just "try to get more money out of them, part 2".
This is where the idiocy of the "extended warranty" came in. Of course those things are utter shite, so I politely decline. After several more rounds of the more usual "protect your investment!" I finally get the most ridiculous attempt which was: "well, I have a 20% off coupon that I was going to give my son, but I'll let you have it!". I literally had to choke back a belly roar and instead just reiterated that I had no interest.
-
This is where the idiocy of the "extended warranty" came in. Of course those things are utter shite, so I politely decline. After several more rounds of the more usual "protect your investment!" I finally get the most ridiculous attempt which was: "well, I have a 20% off coupon that I was going to give my son, but I'll let you have it!". I literally had to choke back a belly roar and instead just reiterated that I had no interest.
That's hilarious :D - I don't think I would have been able to resist laughing at that one.
-
One thing that did annoy me though, was that in order to fit a new stereo you have to get a huge kit that replaces what seems like half the dash, and has computer bits in it to simulate the car stuff that the manufacturer hid in the radio. My new stereo cost £150, but the fitting kit cost £190 on its own! Stupid modern cars. Facepunch needed to the designer there, I think.
Probably too late but next time I recommend going to Crutchfield and looking for an after market stereo there. I paid around $90 for mine and including a kit to fit it in my car (same problem as you as the stereo had to blend into the console) and got great customer service. Installing it myself put a huge smile on my face.
-
That is where I bought my last stereo and on sale it came with the installation kit for free as I recall.
-
Last time we bought a car I had everything ready in advance. I made the deal via email, arrived with a check from my credit union and had already added the car to my insurance as of that day. The salesperson asked if I wanted to transfer the plates, and I said only if it's cheaper than getting new ones, as the registration still had three months to go and I didn't want to pay for that twice.
After overhearing this, the finance guy just looked at me and said "I'm guessing that you're not going to be interested in the extended warranty or other products we have, right?". Right. So that part didn't take long. They took the check, I signed the paperwork, and that was it. No sales pitch.
-
Does anyone else think that if dealers were actually affordable places to do business that they would make more money on volume than trying to squeeze every last dollar out of every transaction?
Our local dealer is not the only dealer with this problem. I've used dealers in other states and other cities and for other brands.
I can not afford (will not?) to use our local dealer for anything b/c everything is so damn expensive. I can't buy parts there anymore, can't use their service department, and it won't likely be a place I buy my next car and I do like the brand.
I can buy OEM parts affordably from another dealer several states away from reasonable prices and I either do the work myself or use a local mechanic.
If our local dealer was affordable I'd use them many times per year but I cringe at the thought of trying to do business with them b/c most of the time they are the absolutely highest price for anything.
-
Does anyone else think that if dealers were actually affordable places to do business that they would make more money on volume than trying to squeeze every last dollar out of every transaction?
I certainly think many dealers do operate that way. Locating them can be challenging sometimes. I know I've run across multiple Toyota dealers that were just awful and full of themselves. In one case, I drove 30 miles north, dealt with a Toyota dealer there that dealer traded the car I was looking at from the snooty Toyota dealer. I don't know how much volume they did, but they got my business.
-
I honestly can't imagine even using a dealer for service. The small amount of Honda warranty work I had done, over the years, has been a F'ekin nightmare. They play a game called, "First, we need to get it on the lift for the free safety inspection", then they spend a few minutes poking around your car, desperately searching for services and repairs to sell you. You can pretty much guarantee that you will be told that the engine air filter and cabin air filters are in need of replacement, for 4-5X as much as you could DIY them, with ZERO mechanical skill needed. If they do any actual work, there is a significant chance they will fuck that up also. The only time a dealer changed oil on my CRV, I had to take it home and drain almost two quarts out of it. It takes 4.2 Qts of oil, how an idiot with a Honda uniform on ever thought it took a gallon and a half of oil will always amaze me. As for parts, it's easy to purchase factory parts online for 30% off MSRP, with no tax, from the few Honda dealers that have a clue as to how internet commerce actually works.
-
I honestly can't imagine even using a dealer for service. The small amount of Honda warranty work I had done, over the years, has been a F'ekin nightmare. They play a game called, "First, we need to get it on the lift for the free safety inspection", then they spend a few minutes poking around your car, desperately searching for services and repairs to sell you. You can pretty much guarantee that you will be told that the engine air filter and cabin air filters are in need of replacement, for 4-5X as much as you could DIY them, with ZERO mechanical skill needed. If they do any actual work, there is a significant chance they will fuck that up also. The only time a dealer changed oil on my CRV, I had to take it home and drain almost two quarts out of it. It takes 4.2 Qts of oil, how an idiot with a Honda uniform on ever thought it took a gallon and a half of oil will always amaze me. As for parts, it's easy to purchase factory parts online for 30% off MSRP, with no tax, from the few Honda dealers that have a clue as to how internet commerce actually works.
Yep. With my last recall fix, the service manager pulled me aside and gave me a stern warning:
him: I can see this car is really well maintained... and I am guessing you're doing it yourself, but ... the mechanic found something that REALLY needs to be addressed immediately.
me: um... okay... What?
him: the battery terminal is severely corroded. It really needs to be replaced immediately. It's a matter of personal safety.
me: okay. I'll look at it.
him: We really should take care of that. It WILL cause you problems. VERY SOON.
me: I'll handle it.
When I looked at it... it looked fine. And unless something is just corroded to a point of there being nothing left, usually cleaning with a wire brush and coating with dielectric grease is fine. I left it alone and did nothing. Two years later: It still looks fine. And nothing blew up by ignoring it.
-
few years back I went to a dealer to buy a car with the Mrs and handed them a USAA loan certificate/check for the final price. Dealer took it back to his financial manager and he eventually came back and said they had never see this and they couldn't take it BUT if I told him the loan info from USAA they would match it. I called them out on it since it is very common to use
This. We ran into the same resistance when buying a car because the dealership claimed it was hard working with USAA. I call bullshit. USAA is a dream to work with from my end and the thing is basically a GD check! Just cash the sucker and let us worry about the loan details on our end.
Even sleezier, they couldn't beat but only match the terms of the loan. We told them several times we were going with our own financing, and yet when signing the papers, there were the documents for their loan. Thankfully I asked what it was before signing and pushed back. The finance person got very grumpy and downright rude at that point, so I think that meant they weren't earning much money off of us.
-
I honestly can't imagine even using a dealer for service. The small amount of Honda warranty work I had done, over the years, has been a F'ekin nightmare. They play a game called, "First, we need to get it on the lift for the free safety inspection", then they spend a few minutes poking around your car, desperately searching for services and repairs to sell you. You can pretty much guarantee that you will be told that the engine air filter and cabin air filters are in need of replacement, for 4-5X as much as you could DIY them, with ZERO mechanical skill needed. If they do any actual work, there is a significant chance they will fuck that up also. The only time a dealer changed oil on my CRV, I had to take it home and drain almost two quarts out of it. It takes 4.2 Qts of oil, how an idiot with a Honda uniform on ever thought it took a gallon and a half of oil will always amaze me. As for parts, it's easy to purchase factory parts online for 30% off MSRP, with no tax, from the few Honda dealers that have a clue as to how internet commerce actually works.
I've never really used my dealership's service center. I've been able to use a local mechanic for all of the basic servicing that takes place and because it's a reputable brand, '06 Sentra, it hasn't really required any major maintenance items, just the usual replacing of belts, tires, oil, etc. That's not to say it's without quirks, a couple of the model years, including mine, have an issue with the fuel pump that makes it so that if you attempt to cold start the engine will have to turn over at least a few times, and possibly quite a few, before it catches. It's a pretty known problem, essentially a design issue where when the car is off the gas empties out of the connecting cable between the fuel pump and the engine, and you have to get that air out before you can start your engine. It's not really an issue because you can just turn your battery on for 10-20 seconds before starting and 95% of the time that takes care of it entirely.
Well, last year I had to take it to the Nissan service center to get my Takata airbags replaced. It was part of an official recall so the replacement was free but the recall was very explicit about having to get it done at the Nissan service center. So I take it in, and remind the person who I drop it off with about turning on the battery for at least a few seconds before cranking the engine, someone hops in my still running car, drives it the servicing area, and then I start waiting for my airbag to be replaced. Once this has been done, I get brought out of the waiting room and the customer service person lets me know that all vehicles that get services are eligible for a free car wash (guess it helps people feel better about getting ripped off) including mine, and would I want one? So, sure I'm down for a free car wash, and the tech who'd been working on it immediately jumps in and cranks the engine and it just keeps turning and turning and turning and then finally catches. The customer service guy turns to me, and having forgotten about turning the battery on and apparently not relaying the request to the tech, and suggests that I should get my fuel pump replaced.
At this point I'm just incredulous because
1)It's not the fuel pump that's at issue, it's the design of how the cable allowing fuel to flow to the engine was implemented on this Make/Model. You have to get a whole kit from Nissan to fix the issue, which is supposed to keep the fuel from flowing back away from the engine (as best I can understand it), and even then it's pretty hit or miss. I don't really expect any one who's not a Sentra owner to know this, but I'm at a freaking Nissan dealership service center.
2)The degree in which how I told him to take care of my car was in one ear and out the other. Not even the prolonged turning over the engine was enough to prompt this guy to remember that maybe I said something to him about avoiding this issue to begin with.
So obviously the best course of action after all of this is to send me reminders in the mail every month to bring my Sentra in to get the fuel pump replaced. So yeah, I wouldn't go back even if they were cheaper than other service centers, which they're obviously not.
-
Yep. With my last recall fix, the service manager pulled me aside and gave me a stern warning:
him: I can see this car is really well maintained... and I am guessing you're doing it yourself, but ... the mechanic found something that REALLY needs to be addressed immediately.
me: um... okay... What?
him: the battery terminal is severely corroded. It really needs to be replaced immediately. It's a matter of personal safety.
me: okay. I'll look at it.
him: We really should take care of that. It WILL cause you problems. VERY SOON.
me: I'll handle it.
When I looked at it... it looked fine. And unless something is just corroded to a point of there being nothing left, usually cleaning with a wire brush and coating with dielectric grease is fine. I left it alone and did nothing. Two years later: It still looks fine. And nothing blew up by ignoring it.
Yea, the best part is that, had you fallen for their bullshit, the bill would of had $50 in labor and another $5-10 in supplies. The reality is that a tech. would of mixed up a bit of Baking Soda and water in a paper cup and dumped that on the terminal, which would immediately removed the corrosion and made it look shiny and new. Next it would of gotten a two second shot of red battery terminal protectant spray from a can. Total of five minutes work, and $0.25 in material. The same dealer that overfilled my oil was told to NOT do the "free safety inspection" and totally ignored my request. They then told me that all the tires, with 3/16" of tread and nowhere near the wear bars, needed to be changed immediately. I told them to not worry about it, but they didn't give up and returned to the customer lounge for another round of how concerned they were about my "dangerous" tires. Bunch of lizards, all of them.
-
So, sure I'm down for a free car wash, and the tech who'd been working on it immediately jumps in and cranks the engine and it just keeps turning and turning and turning and then finally catches. The customer service guy turns to me, and having forgotten about turning the battery on and apparently not relaying the request to the tech, and suggests that I should get my fuel pump replaced.
Heck that probably gets them alot of work each month b/c the average person doesn't know jack about their car. I have an older domestic sedan that behaves the same way. Let the fuel pump run for a few seconds until it switches off (you can hear it) and it fires immediately when I turn the key just like my import car.
-
So, sure I'm down for a free car wash, and the tech who'd been working on it immediately jumps in and cranks the engine and it just keeps turning and turning and turning and then finally catches. The customer service guy turns to me, and having forgotten about turning the battery on and apparently not relaying the request to the tech, and suggests that I should get my fuel pump replaced.
Heck that probably gets them alot of work each month b/c the average person doesn't know jack about their car. I have an older domestic sedan that behaves the same way. Let the fuel pump run for a few seconds until it switches off (you can hear it) and it fires immediately when I turn the key just like my import car.
Ah the free car wash. Another story...
Wife's car goes to dealer for recall. I get the free car wash. When I get home, I notice the mirrors. The non-mirror side is -- or was -- a shiny black plastic. They had blasted them so hard with a power washer as to take the finish off of them. They now were matte black and looked like a toddler had sanded them unevenly with 80 grit sand paper. I just shook my head.
When my car went in for a recall (same dealer) I am offered the free car wash. No thank you, I say. The last free car wash you gave me ruined the finish on the mirrors. Okay, they say. When I go to pick it up, it's washed. Mirrors on my car are damaged in exactly the same fashion. This was 6 months or more later. I can only wildly assume they were blasting the finish off of 25 cars a day for every work day in that 6 months.
-
So, sure I'm down for a free car wash, and the tech who'd been working on it immediately jumps in and cranks the engine and it just keeps turning and turning and turning and then finally catches. The customer service guy turns to me, and having forgotten about turning the battery on and apparently not relaying the request to the tech, and suggests that I should get my fuel pump replaced.
Heck that probably gets them alot of work each month b/c the average person doesn't know jack about their car. I have an older domestic sedan that behaves the same way. Let the fuel pump run for a few seconds until it switches off (you can hear it) and it fires immediately when I turn the key just like my import car.
Ah the free car wash. Another story...
Wife's car goes to dealer for recall. I get the free car wash. When I get home, I notice the mirrors. The non-mirror side is -- or was -- a shiny black plastic. They had blasted them so hard with a power washer as to take the finish off of them. They now were matte black and looked like a toddler had sanded them unevenly with 80 grit sand paper. I just shook my head.
When my car went in for a recall (same dealer) I am offered the free car wash. No thank you, I say. The last free car wash you gave me ruined the finish on the mirrors. Okay, they say. When I go to pick it up, it's washed. Mirrors on my car are damaged in exactly the same fashion. This was 6 months or more later. I can only wildly assume they were blasting the finish off of 25 cars a day for every work day in that 6 months.
I think it would have been pow-wow time with that dealership. And I'm not even very picky with my cars.
-
They keep the body shop busy that way? yeah I'd keep them busy painting my mirrors at their cost.
I'd probably go through the trouble of removing the mirrors and taking them in so they didn't screw up the rest of the car aka painting the mirrors with the windows down (paint in the interior).
-
So, sure I'm down for a free car wash, and the tech who'd been working on it immediately jumps in and cranks the engine and it just keeps turning and turning and turning and then finally catches. The customer service guy turns to me, and having forgotten about turning the battery on and apparently not relaying the request to the tech, and suggests that I should get my fuel pump replaced.
Heck that probably gets them alot of work each month b/c the average person doesn't know jack about their car. I have an older domestic sedan that behaves the same way. Let the fuel pump run for a few seconds until it switches off (you can hear it) and it fires immediately when I turn the key just like my import car.
Ah the free car wash. Another story...
Wife's car goes to dealer for recall. I get the free car wash. When I get home, I notice the mirrors. The non-mirror side is -- or was -- a shiny black plastic. They had blasted them so hard with a power washer as to take the finish off of them. They now were matte black and looked like a toddler had sanded them unevenly with 80 grit sand paper. I just shook my head.
When my car went in for a recall (same dealer) I am offered the free car wash. No thank you, I say. The last free car wash you gave me ruined the finish on the mirrors. Okay, they say. When I go to pick it up, it's washed. Mirrors on my car are damaged in exactly the same fashion. This was 6 months or more later. I can only wildly assume they were blasting the finish off of 25 cars a day for every work day in that 6 months.
Out of curiosity, what brand of dealer was that?
-
Save!
-
Have I posted here yet how my local dealer promised to reduce my payments by $50/mo if I got a new car?
The only way the math works out, I would get a new car for free and also $50/mo in the mail. That's a deal I would take.
-
Save!
So....switch from a Honda to a more expensive, blinged-out Honda?
I'd rather look at my local Craigslist/Bookoo for a few-years-old Acura and skip the depreciation cliff.
-
Don't know about where you live and its been years since I priced out a Honda - but once upon a time - it took several years to get more than a few thousand from a new Honda price here. For a $3K difference, I'll take the new Honda please... I've seen how some people treat their cars...
-
So, sure I'm down for a free car wash, and the tech who'd been working on it immediately jumps in and cranks the engine and it just keeps turning and turning and turning and then finally catches. The customer service guy turns to me, and having forgotten about turning the battery on and apparently not relaying the request to the tech, and suggests that I should get my fuel pump replaced.
Heck that probably gets them alot of work each month b/c the average person doesn't know jack about their car. I have an older domestic sedan that behaves the same way. Let the fuel pump run for a few seconds until it switches off (you can hear it) and it fires immediately when I turn the key just like my import car.
Ah the free car wash. Another story...
Wife's car goes to dealer for recall. I get the free car wash. When I get home, I notice the mirrors. The non-mirror side is -- or was -- a shiny black plastic. They had blasted them so hard with a power washer as to take the finish off of them. They now were matte black and looked like a toddler had sanded them unevenly with 80 grit sand paper. I just shook my head.
When my car went in for a recall (same dealer) I am offered the free car wash. No thank you, I say. The last free car wash you gave me ruined the finish on the mirrors. Okay, they say. When I go to pick it up, it's washed. Mirrors on my car are damaged in exactly the same fashion. This was 6 months or more later. I can only wildly assume they were blasting the finish off of 25 cars a day for every work day in that 6 months.
Out of curiosity, what brand of dealer was that?
Toyota.
I've had gigantically awful experience with Toyota Dealers over the years. I like the cars. The dealers are, bluntly, just assholes. I've never been treated like that with other dealerships. There have been a couple of exceptions to the asshole rule... but in both cases, I had to drive out of my way to find them, passing 3 or more asshat dealers along the path.
-
They keep the body shop busy that way? yeah I'd keep them busy painting my mirrors at their cost.
Dealer talked my wife into having her car detailed. Whatever they used as a cleaner took the finish right off of the steering wheel. It was a fight, but we finally got them to replace it. $1200 airbag steering wheel replacement at whatever their cost is...
They're not allowed to wash my car either after the took a high pressure spray to the back and managed to shoot water through the engine bay louvers and fill the spark plug wells with water... I was not happy.
-
Toyota.
I've had gigantically awful experience with Toyota Dealers over the years. I like the cars. The dealers are, bluntly, just assholes. I've never been treated like that with other dealerships. There have been a couple of exceptions to the asshole rule... but in both cases, I had to drive out of my way to find them, passing 3 or more asshat dealers along the path.
Toyotas practically sell themselves due to their long-term reliability image. After all, Image is EverythingTM. The lot vultures and sales process are there like a maze to make you fight hard to get one, because a Toyota is a rare-breed, and you deserve that unicorn.
The above statement may also apply to any and all automotive dealers representing various manufacturers.
-
Don't know about where you live and its been years since I priced out a Honda - but once upon a time - it took several years to get more than a few thousand from a new Honda price here. For a $3K difference, I'll take the new Honda please... I've seen how some people treat their cars...
That's why we bought a new Honda Fit 5 years ago. The cost difference between a 3-year-old car with 50K on it vs a new car was 3K. For 3K, I'll take 3 years less wear and tear on the car, y'know? (For 6K, we can discuss... but there is a point where you're not saving money by buying used. Counterintuitive but still true.)
-
Don't know about where you live and its been years since I priced out a Honda - but once upon a time - it took several years to get more than a few thousand from a new Honda price here. For a $3K difference, I'll take the new Honda please... I've seen how some people treat their cars...
That's why we bought a new Honda Fit 5 years ago. The cost difference between a 3-year-old car with 50K on it vs a new car was 3K. For 3K, I'll take 3 years less wear and tear on the car, y'know? (For 6K, we can discuss... but there is a point where you're not saving money by buying used. Counterintuitive but still true.)
Yup. It amazes me how many people blindly insist that all new cars are always a terrible idea without any basis at all. Having basically only bought Hondas, it's almost always financially better to buy new over slightly used.
-
Don't know about where you live and its been years since I priced out a Honda - but once upon a time - it took several years to get more than a few thousand from a new Honda price here. For a $3K difference, I'll take the new Honda please... I've seen how some people treat their cars...
That's why we bought a new Honda Fit 5 years ago. The cost difference between a 3-year-old car with 50K on it vs a new car was 3K. For 3K, I'll take 3 years less wear and tear on the car, y'know? (For 6K, we can discuss... but there is a point where you're not saving money by buying used. Counterintuitive but still true.)
Yup. It amazes me how many people blindly insist that all new cars are always a terrible idea without any basis at all. Having basically only bought Hondas, it's almost always financially better to buy new over slightly used.
Yeah but that's not what MMM advises. The *youngest* used car you should be looking at is 6 years old.
-
Don't know about where you live and its been years since I priced out a Honda - but once upon a time - it took several years to get more than a few thousand from a new Honda price here. For a $3K difference, I'll take the new Honda please... I've seen how some people treat their cars...
That's why we bought a new Honda Fit 5 years ago. The cost difference between a 3-year-old car with 50K on it vs a new car was 3K. For 3K, I'll take 3 years less wear and tear on the car, y'know? (For 6K, we can discuss... but there is a point where you're not saving money by buying used. Counterintuitive but still true.)
Yup. It amazes me how many people blindly insist that all new cars are always a terrible idea without any basis at all. Having basically only bought Hondas, it's almost always financially better to buy new over slightly used.
Yeah but that's not what MMM advises. The *youngest* used car you should be looking at is 6 years old.
MMM advocates all kinds of goofy shit when it comes to cars, doesn't make it right for all situations.
-
Don't know about where you live and its been years since I priced out a Honda - but once upon a time - it took several years to get more than a few thousand from a new Honda price here. For a $3K difference, I'll take the new Honda please... I've seen how some people treat their cars...
That's why we bought a new Honda Fit 5 years ago. The cost difference between a 3-year-old car with 50K on it vs a new car was 3K. For 3K, I'll take 3 years less wear and tear on the car, y'know? (For 6K, we can discuss... but there is a point where you're not saving money by buying used. Counterintuitive but still true.)
Yep, we have been through this a few times, as long term owners of CRVs. The wife wrecked a three year old one, after a deer tried to tackle it. It had 75K on the ODO and the insurance co. wrote a check for rough 85% of the original purchase price. The car was absolutely destroyed, with the entire 4wd drivetrain pushed backwards a few inches, and fluids leaking from several systems. The insurer sold it for $6800 the same day I signed the title over to the adjuster. I asked our salesperson about a slightly used replacement and he told me that he would make a much sweeter commission on a used one, but only a fool would pay the kind of money that his dealer was getting for them.
-
Yup. It amazes me how many people blindly insist that all new cars are always a terrible idea without any basis at all. Having basically only bought Hondas, it's almost always financially better to buy new over slightly used.
Yeah but that's not what MMM advises. The *youngest* used car you should be looking at is 6 years old.
Not anymore. MMM bought a brand new car. It is an electric, though.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/
-
Don't know about where you live and its been years since I priced out a Honda - but once upon a time - it took several years to get more than a few thousand from a new Honda price here. For a $3K difference, I'll take the new Honda please... I've seen how some people treat their cars...
I just priced out a '14 Accord EX with 20K miles on it - they were booking right around 18K. I think a new one can be purchased for 20 ish. So that still seems to hold true - though buying one off the lot and buying one off a private party could net different results.
-
Don't know about where you live and its been years since I priced out a Honda - but once upon a time - it took several years to get more than a few thousand from a new Honda price here. For a $3K difference, I'll take the new Honda please... I've seen how some people treat their cars...
I just priced out a '14 Accord EX with 20K miles on it - they were booking right around 18K. I think a new one can be purchased for 20 ish. So that still seems to hold true - though buying one off the lot and buying one off a private party could net different results.
An LX is $22,455 base with a manual transmission. If you want an automatic and 17" wheels, you're at $25,604 with no other options.
-
Dealers will be very loathe to sell you a base model manual accord, even if the manufacturer technically offers one for sale. They often straight up refuse, or tell you that if you special order it you can have it in five months at MSRP.
-
Dealers will be very loathe to sell you a base model manual accord, even if the manufacturer technically offers one for sale. They often straight up refuse, or tell you that if you special order it you can have it in five months at MSRP.
I've gotten the impression that the salesfolk were under some kind of pressure to sell what's on the lot. Nothing quantitative and no direct evidence, just a vibe I picked up last time I was nosing about a dealership. Is it just my imagination?
-
There are holding costs for dealerships. Days on lot is a big deal to them. Sometimes the sales manager will even put more commission on a vehicle that has been around a while.
-
Dealers will be very loathe to sell you a base model manual accord, even if the manufacturer technically offers one for sale. They often straight up refuse, or tell you that if you special order it you can have it in five months at MSRP.
I've gotten the impression that the salesfolk were under some kind of pressure to sell what's on the lot. Nothing quantitative and no direct evidence, just a vibe I picked up last time I was nosing about a dealership. Is it just my imagination?
Absolutely. They'll sell you a car built to order, but the good incentives/discounts are for cars on a lot. The longer it sits, the more money it eats (taxes, upkeep, and obviously opportunity cost.)
You can sometimes find cars that are a year or even two years old, brand new, on a lot. Like a 2015 model today. You can get serious discounts on one, often cheaper than a used one with miles.
Nice cars sold at nice-car-dealerships are much more likely to be built to spec. You buy a $85k porsche, you can get it optioned to your specification with not a single raised eyebrow. You buy a $22k accord, you take what's on the lot or you call a bunch of dealers before one will actually want to work with you and make things easy. Good news is that if you buy a $22k accord, there aren't a lot of options that matter, so you can probably find exactly what you want on the lot...
Unless it's the most base model they have, which often isn't on any lot, because nobody want to earn $200 selling a $22k accord when they can earn $800 selling a $26k accord. (Numbers mildly made up, but you get it.) Not to mention that buyers of the most base model are far less likely to go for the other addons from which dealers make money.
-
Base model cars are often just there as an ad car. Don't sell the ad car! If you sell the ad car and someone calls to ask if you still have it, you can't say "sure, come on down." Once the customer is on the lot, it's time for the upsale. They will sell the ad car, but they are not going to make it a pleasant experience.
-
Base model cars are often just there as an ad car. Don't sell the ad car! If you sell the ad car and someone calls to ask if you still have it, you can't say "sure, come on down." Once the customer is on the lot, it's time for the upsale. They will sell the ad car, but they are not going to make it a pleasant experience.
You really think they wouldn't lie to you to get you on to the lot?!?!?!7
Have you read this thread? I drove three hours to buy a car they swore they had in stock and when I got there it was gone, sold a week ago.
-
Another ridiculous Toyota story.
Many years ago (about 2002 I think) my sister custom ordered a Toyota. Nothing fancy... just a combination of options and colors. She puts down a deposit. Time goes by. More time. More time. They finally call her and have her car. She goes to pick it up and ... it's missing several of the things she ordered. Fine, they say, they'll discount it a little. No, says sister, I want what I ordered. Then Toyota tells her "There is no such thing as a custom ordered Toyota. The factory doesn't do that. They just have a guy sitting at the import dock in Houston that will pick the closest car and send it to them."
I have zero idea if Toyota's statement is true or false. It's a ridiculous statement either way.
-
Dealers will be very loathe to sell you a base model manual accord, even if the manufacturer technically offers one for sale. They often straight up refuse, or tell you that if you special order it you can have it in five months at MSRP.
I've gotten the impression that the salesfolk were under some kind of pressure to sell what's on the lot. Nothing quantitative and no direct evidence, just a vibe I picked up last time I was nosing about a dealership. Is it just my imagination?
Absolutely. They'll sell you a car built to order, but the good incentives/discounts are for cars on a lot. The longer it sits, the more money it eats (taxes, upkeep, and obviously opportunity cost.)
You can sometimes find cars that are a year or even two years old, brand new, on a lot. Like a 2015 model today. You can get serious discounts on one, often cheaper than a used one with miles.
Nice cars sold at nice-car-dealerships are much more likely to be built to spec. You buy a $85k porsche, you can get it optioned to your specification with not a single raised eyebrow. You buy a $22k accord, you take what's on the lot or you call a bunch of dealers before one will actually want to work with you and make things easy. Good news is that if you buy a $22k accord, there aren't a lot of options that matter, so you can probably find exactly what you want on the lot...
Unless it's the most base model they have, which often isn't on any lot, because nobody want to earn $200 selling a $22k accord when they can earn $800 selling a $26k accord. (Numbers mildly made up, but you get it.) Not to mention that buyers of the most base model are far less likely to go for the other addons from which dealers make money.
This is not my experience. I had two family members who bought $22K accords, custom ordered from the factory to get the colors and options they wanted. The experience was fantastic and very easy, though they perhaps paid a few dollars more than if they had picked one off the lot that didn't fit their needs and wants as well. And yes, they did have to wait 8 weeks for the car to be built and arrive.
-
Another ridiculous Toyota story.
Many years ago (about 2002 I think) my sister custom ordered a Toyota. Nothing fancy... just a combination of options and colors. She puts down a deposit. Time goes by. More time. More time. They finally call her and have her car. She goes to pick it up and ... it's missing several of the things she ordered. Fine, they say, they'll discount it a little. No, says sister, I want what I ordered. Then Toyota tells her "There is no such thing as a custom ordered Toyota. The factory doesn't do that. They just have a guy sitting at the import dock in Houston that will pick the closest car and send it to them."
I have zero idea if Toyota's statement is true or false. It's a ridiculous statement either way.
I call BS. Most Toyotas destined for the North America market are built in the US, including their best selling Camry. If you're ever near Georgetown, KY, go tour it- it's quite something.
Every car that makes its way down the assembly line has a manifest with all the specs attached the the frame. You can literally see the workers put in a V6 in the first car, then switch to a V4 a couple seconds later on the next car that makes it down the line. They don't call it just-in-time manufacturing for nothing.
It's possible that things have changed between 2002 and now, but it's much more likely that the dealer told her whatever they needed to get her off their case.
-
Another ridiculous Toyota story.
Many years ago (about 2002 I think) my sister custom ordered a Toyota. Nothing fancy... just a combination of options and colors. She puts down a deposit. Time goes by. More time. More time. They finally call her and have her car. She goes to pick it up and ... it's missing several of the things she ordered. Fine, they say, they'll discount it a little. No, says sister, I want what I ordered. Then Toyota tells her "There is no such thing as a custom ordered Toyota. The factory doesn't do that. They just have a guy sitting at the import dock in Houston that will pick the closest car and send it to them."
I have zero idea if Toyota's statement is true or false. It's a ridiculous statement either way.
I call BS. Most Toyotas destined for the North America market are built in the US, including their best selling Camry. If you're ever near Georgetown, KY, go tour it- it's quite something.
Every car that makes its way down the assembly line has a manifest with all the specs attached the the frame. You can literally see the workers put in a V6 in the first car, then switch to a V4 a couple seconds later on the next car that makes it down the line. They don't call it just-in-time manufacturing for nothing.
It's possible that things have changed between 2002 and now, but it's much more likely that the dealer told her whatever they needed to get her off their case.
This was my thought too.
-
...
I've gotten the impression that the salesfolk were under some kind of pressure to sell what's on the lot. Nothing quantitative and no direct evidence, just a vibe I picked up last time I was nosing about a dealership. Is it just my imagination?
Information from many years ago: they are paying interest on the units on the lot, so not your imagination. I have used this once, accidentally. I was paying cash for a new car, and had paid all but $200 so I told them to keep it until I got the money together, which was going to be a while. As they were paying interest on the whole car, they told me just to take it.
-
Another ridiculous Toyota story.
Many years ago (about 2002 I think) my sister custom ordered a Toyota. Nothing fancy... just a combination of options and colors. She puts down a deposit. Time goes by. More time. More time. They finally call her and have her car. She goes to pick it up and ... it's missing several of the things she ordered. Fine, they say, they'll discount it a little. No, says sister, I want what I ordered. Then Toyota tells her "There is no such thing as a custom ordered Toyota. The factory doesn't do that. They just have a guy sitting at the import dock in Houston that will pick the closest car and send it to them."
I have zero idea if Toyota's statement is true or false. It's a ridiculous statement either way.
I call BS. Most Toyotas destined for the North America market are built in the US, including their best selling Camry. If you're ever near Georgetown, KY, go tour it- it's quite something.
Every car that makes its way down the assembly line has a manifest with all the specs attached the the frame. You can literally see the workers put in a V6 in the first car, then switch to a V4 a couple seconds later on the next car that makes it down the line. They don't call it just-in-time manufacturing for nothing.
It's possible that things have changed between 2002 and now, but it's much more likely that the dealer told her whatever they needed to get her off their case.
Toyotas in the SE USA are almost all distributed by a single (or maybe there are two) distributors, who are known to engage in a lot of shady, douchy, monopolistic practices like loading every car up with thousands in BS protection packages, etc. It is entirely possible that they control the market and would not let an individual dealer order a specific car. Fortunately, there's nothing (aside from annoyance) stopping you from dealing with a dealer outside of the southeast.
-
Dealers will be very loathe to sell you a base model manual accord, even if the manufacturer technically offers one for sale. They often straight up refuse, or tell you that if you special order it you can have it in five months at MSRP.
And THAT is just another reasons to dream about buying directly from the factory. I'd happily take the bus or fly to Illinois and take delivery at the factory door.
Those darn socialists in Europe can do this. Why not us in the "free market USA"? Or - is that another example of what we saay doesn't match what we do here? ;)
Also - for what it is worth, there are V-6 engines and inline-four cylinders. There aren't any V4s sold in the USA right now in cars. They had vibration issues I've read and were only used in a couple of brands in Europe for a short time along time ago. They do sell them here in some motorcycles. I think the Honda ST-series motorcycles is one example.
We do have H4s here - flat four / boxer fours - in Subarus.
-
We do have H4s here - flat four / boxer fours - in Subarus.
And in the Porsche 718 Boxster/Cayman.
-
Yep, you're right. They are above my tax bracket so I didn't think of them. ;)
-
Dealers will be very loathe to sell you a base model manual accord, even if the manufacturer technically offers one for sale. They often straight up refuse, or tell you that if you special order it you can have it in five months at MSRP.
And THAT is just another reasons to dream about buying directly from the factory. I'd happily take the bus or fly to Illinois and take delivery at the factory door.
Those darn socialists in Europe can do this. Why not us in the "free market USA"? Or - is that another example of what we saay doesn't match what we do here? ;
The factory direct thing has roots in old laws designed to keep manufacturers from charging dealers fees to get set up, and then turning around and competing with them. Right wrong or indifferent, that's where it came from.
On the ordering thing, that's more of a maker by maker thing. Some car makers are very happy to receive your spec order, like BMW, Porsche, MB, etc. Usually higher end ones. And even certain enthusiast cars, like Mustangs or Camaros or Corvettes, dealers are happy to order those spec'd how you want as well. It's only the lower end of the market Japanese makers who really don't offer too many combinations anyways, Hondas are basically pick your trim level and pick your color. And even those makers are probably okay with a special order, but the dealers are too busy selling what they have and what they can easily get to want to screw around with ordering something for you.
-
Dealers will be very loathe to sell you a base model manual accord, even if the manufacturer technically offers one for sale. They often straight up refuse, or tell you that if you special order it you can have it in five months at MSRP.
I've gotten the impression that the salesfolk were under some kind of pressure to sell what's on the lot. Nothing quantitative and no direct evidence, just a vibe I picked up last time I was nosing about a dealership. Is it just my imagination?
Plus dealerships don't "get to choose" all of the models sent to them. While I was ordering my Renegade I noticed there were a ton of 2014 Jeep Cheerokee Latitudes on the lot. FCI sent the the cars with basically if you want these other cars you are taking these as well. The dealership sold some of them but ended up with at least 25% left when the 2015's came out.
-
Bought my Yaris 10 years ago this month. Got this flyer in the mail - front made me think it would be coupons for service. But nope... Time to buy a new one!
-
Local dealership has taken over a massive fenced off parking lot to park their overstock. Always makes me wonder if the car manufacturer needs to scale back production aka the economy is slowing or they have run through all the potential customers who want a car payment. Smallish town.
-
Local dealership has taken over a massive fenced off parking lot to park their overstock. Always makes me wonder if the car manufacturer needs to scale back production aka the economy is slowing or they have run through all the potential customers who want a car payment. Smallish town.
I see ads on these forums, at the bottom, advertising a new Civic for $5+change a day, or an Accord for $7+change. I have both cars, but somehow the ads are almost always en Espanol. Que?
-
Wow a new car for just $7!
-
Wow a new car for just $7!
Not bad. Would allow one to keep the rest of their 'stache invested for another month.
-
Here's a dumb question: Could you buy a car from a dealership with your credit card? Airline miles....
Probably not, huh? Yeah, dumb question.
-
Here's a dumb question: Could you buy a car from a dealership with your credit card? Airline miles....
Probably not, huh? Yeah, dumb question.
You could probably put a downpayment on your car with one. Would depend upon the dealership. Unless your credit limit is high enough to cover the whole cost of a car?
-
Here's a dumb question: Could you buy a car from a dealership with your credit card? Airline miles....
Probably not, huh? Yeah, dumb question.
You could probably put a downpayment on your car with one. Would depend upon the dealership. Unless your credit limit is high enough to cover the whole cost of a car?
High credit limit + Inexpensive car = Yes
I have done it. However, it is usually going to be a better deal to buy from a private party instead of a dealership. I'm not sure if airline miles would make up the difference, but I am not a traveler.
-
Here's a dumb question: Could you buy a car from a dealership with your credit card? Airline miles....
Probably not, huh? Yeah, dumb question.
You could probably put a downpayment on your car with one. Would depend upon the dealership. Unless your credit limit is high enough to cover the whole cost of a car?
High credit limit + Inexpensive car = Yes
I have done it. However, it is usually going to be a better deal to buy from a private party instead of a dealership. I'm not sure if airline miles would make up the difference, but I am not a traveler.
When we bought our new car from a dealer they allowed us to put up to $3,000 on a credit card as a down payment. On the other hand, I tried to pay for a car worth ~$4,000-5,000 at a used car dealership with a credit card and they were really reluctant to take it at all. Paid with check instead for that one.
-
My first car was paid for in part by CC, was paid off in a few months and had a low rate. Broke college kid did not have the other 2k but had income and getting a loan for that little would have had fees. Not a great move but probably not my worst.
Today in the US retailors can add a special fee to cover CC fees they have to pay. My roofer would have charge 3-4% more to use a CC vs a dead tree check. So a car dealer might take a CC but they are going to get an extra pound of flesh to cover the added costs.
-
Here's a dumb question: Could you buy a car from a dealership with your credit card? Airline miles....
Probably not, huh? Yeah, dumb question.
It is likely to hurt your position haggling over the price. The dealer is going to have to pay a fee to Mastercard/Visa of a few percent. They're going to get that back from you. The question then is if the airline miles are worth the markup.
-
When I bought my LEAF, I negotiated the price, we got to an agreement there and then they asked how much I wanted to put down for a deposit. I answered "Anywhere between 3K and 30K on this card, please." They were only willing to do $3K (but did it at no surcharge to me, so I got the $45 (1.5%) cash back on it).
-
Fascinating. I have never bought a car at a dealership; we always go the craigslist car under 5k route and pay cash. But I'm in the process of improving my travel hacking game and the thought of a couple grand on a credit card makes me salivate a little.
-
Buying a car at a dealership instead of craigslist for the points has got to be the best example of stepping over a $10 bill to pickup a nickel that I've ever heard! :)
-
Another ridiculous Toyota story.
Many years ago (about 2002 I think) my sister custom ordered a Toyota. Nothing fancy... just a combination of options and colors. She puts down a deposit. Time goes by. More time. More time. They finally call her and have her car. She goes to pick it up and ... it's missing several of the things she ordered. Fine, they say, they'll discount it a little. No, says sister, I want what I ordered. Then Toyota tells her "There is no such thing as a custom ordered Toyota. The factory doesn't do that. They just have a guy sitting at the import dock in Houston that will pick the closest car and send it to them."
I have zero idea if Toyota's statement is true or false. It's a ridiculous statement either way.
As I understand it, this is why you should insist on putting a down payment on a document with a specific vehicle VIN listed. That VIN corresponds with all the options that aren't installed at the dealership (like remote starter upgrades, etc). If they deliver you a vehicle with a different set of features, it will have a different VIN, and you should receive your money back if they can't get you exactly what you ordered.
-
Buying a car at a dealership instead of craigslist for the points has got to be the best example of stepping over a $10 bill to pickup a nickel that I've ever heard! :)
True that. I'd never do it. Just hypothetically thinking. We don't need a car.
-
Here's a dumb question: Could you buy a car from a dealership with your credit card? Airline miles....
Probably not, huh? Yeah, dumb question.
You could probably put a downpayment on your car with one. Would depend upon the dealership. Unless your credit limit is high enough to cover the whole cost of a car?
High credit limit + Inexpensive car = Yes
I have done it. However, it is usually going to be a better deal to buy from a private party instead of a dealership. I'm not sure if airline miles would make up the difference, but I am not a traveler.
When we bought our new car from a dealer they allowed us to put up to $3,000 on a credit card as a down payment. On the other hand, I tried to pay for a car worth ~$4,000-5,000 at a used car dealership with a credit card and they were really reluctant to take it at all. Paid with check instead for that one.
Not defending car dealerships general practice, but it's entirely reasonable for them to not accept a credit card for a car purchase. It's extremely unusual, and so the price they settled on did not include CC transaction fees (3% or so). With items that are commonly paid for with CC (i.e. retail goods), those fees are passed on to the purchaser as a matter of routine.
The hitch being that they can't just charge you those fees, since it's illegal to do so. Or at least was in my state back when I was working retail when it was still common for small businesses to not accept credit cards.
-
So, sure I'm down for a free car wash, and the tech who'd been working on it immediately jumps in and cranks the engine and it just keeps turning and turning and turning and then finally catches. The customer service guy turns to me, and having forgotten about turning the battery on and apparently not relaying the request to the tech, and suggests that I should get my fuel pump replaced.
Heck that probably gets them alot of work each month b/c the average person doesn't know jack about their car. I have an older domestic sedan that behaves the same way. Let the fuel pump run for a few seconds until it switches off (you can hear it) and it fires immediately when I turn the key just like my import car.
Ah the free car wash. Another story...
Wife's car goes to dealer for recall. I get the free car wash. When I get home, I notice the mirrors. The non-mirror side is -- or was -- a shiny black plastic. They had blasted them so hard with a power washer as to take the finish off of them. They now were matte black and looked like a toddler had sanded them unevenly with 80 grit sand paper. I just shook my head.
When my car went in for a recall (same dealer) I am offered the free car wash. No thank you, I say. The last free car wash you gave me ruined the finish on the mirrors. Okay, they say. When I go to pick it up, it's washed. Mirrors on my car are damaged in exactly the same fashion. This was 6 months or more later. I can only wildly assume they were blasting the finish off of 25 cars a day for every work day in that 6 months.
Out of curiosity, what brand of dealer was that?
Toyota.
I've had gigantically awful experience with Toyota Dealers over the years. I like the cars. The dealers are, bluntly, just assholes. I've never been treated like that with other dealerships. There have been a couple of exceptions to the asshole rule... but in both cases, I had to drive out of my way to find them, passing 3 or more asshat dealers along the path.
As someone who worked at a Toyota dealer, I can confirm both that there is a lot of carelessness in the handling of customer cars, especially from the lot attendants and detail people and that the sales people and service advisers are often complete assholes that could never get away with how they act if they weren't selling and servicing Toyotas.
-
Here's a dumb question: Could you buy a car from a dealership with your credit card? Airline miles....
Probably not, huh? Yeah, dumb question.
You could probably put a downpayment on your car with one. Would depend upon the dealership. Unless your credit limit is high enough to cover the whole cost of a car?
High credit limit + Inexpensive car = Yes
I have done it. However, it is usually going to be a better deal to buy from a private party instead of a dealership. I'm not sure if airline miles would make up the difference, but I am not a traveler.
When we bought our new car from a dealer they allowed us to put up to $3,000 on a credit card as a down payment. On the other hand, I tried to pay for a car worth ~$4,000-5,000 at a used car dealership with a credit card and they were really reluctant to take it at all. Paid with check instead for that one.
Not defending car dealerships general practice, but it's entirely reasonable for them to not accept a credit card for a car purchase. It's extremely unusual, and so the price they settled on did not include CC transaction fees (3% or so). With items that are commonly paid for with CC (i.e. retail goods), those fees are passed on to the purchaser as a matter of routine.
The hitch being that they can't just charge you those fees, since it's illegal to do so. Or at least was in my state back when I was working retail when it was still common for small businesses to not accept credit cards.
That used to be the case, but it changed in 2013 (http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-surcharges-allowed-1281.php).
-
Some of these tactics sound familiar. In 2005, I got my heart set on a Mazda3 hatchback, my first new car. There was a Mazda dealership litterally 3 blocks from my house in California, so naturally I tried to buy one there. Test drove, told them what I wanted, and while they didn't literally lock me in the office, I was blocked in while they tried to pressure me into buying a car with more options than I wanted. Finally got out of there, and a week or two later, they called and said "we have your care here for you, come on down." I go over and there is the care with options (none) and color I wanted, but it already had 450 miles on it and was scratched. Apparently they'd driven it a couple hundred miles and not even bothered to wash it, much less try to buff the scratches out. I asked how much they were going to discount this car, since it was clearly used. They gave me a guilt trip about how it only had all those miles because they were bringing it here like I asked. Umm, no you didn't check with me on this. Take your scratched up used car and F-off. A couple days later the manager called and gave me this half-assed apology and I told him there was no way he'd be getting my business.
Last March, when I bought my Juke, I had what I view as good fortune of having a fairly new, and non-too-bright salesman. Of course he wanted to run my credit, and I said no; we'll negotiate the out the door price first. My credit will not be a problem. They neglected to tell me about the 36 month, 0% interest financing that was splashed on the front page of Nissan's website. I go in, they keep trying to do that 4-square bullshit, and I'm on my phone's calculator punching numbers and going... that doesn't make any sense Randy. Tell me the price of the actual car. He says he needs to know how much my max payment can be. I say "the car price, plus tax and title, minus my trade. Divide that by 36." Well, I need a max number. I say, "fine, I need my payment to be under $1,000 a month." He shakes his head and capitulates. Then they try to drive down the value of my trade in by saying it needed new tires, when I'd put brand new tires on about 3 months before. At least go for something more believable. It was actually kind of funny, because I didn't need to buy the car, and was 100% prepared to walk out the door (had the spare key to my car in my pocket). In fact, I started to do just that and the price came down another $1,000. This is why I go by myself when buying cars; makes it easier to unilaterally say F-no and walk out, and there's no playing the spouses against each other.
-
Here's a dumb question: Could you buy a car from a dealership with your credit card? Airline miles....
Probably not, huh? Yeah, dumb question.
You could probably put a downpayment on your car with one. Would depend upon the dealership. Unless your credit limit is high enough to cover the whole cost of a car?
High credit limit + Inexpensive car = Yes
I have done it. However, it is usually going to be a better deal to buy from a private party instead of a dealership. I'm not sure if airline miles would make up the difference, but I am not a traveler.
When we bought our new car from a dealer they allowed us to put up to $3,000 on a credit card as a down payment. On the other hand, I tried to pay for a car worth ~$4,000-5,000 at a used car dealership with a credit card and they were really reluctant to take it at all. Paid with check instead for that one.
About four years ago I bought a motorcycle in Kansas. The out-the-door was $3500 and I put everything on the credit card. I didn't even pay sales tax. He may have simply wanted to get it off his lot that badly.
-
Here's a ridiculous thing that hasn't been brought up. My wife decided on a car. The car manufacturer has said we could reserve our car for $1000. We put this money down almost a year ago and probably won't get the car for more than another year. Thing is almost 400,000 other people did the same thing.
-
What the flip kind of car are you waiting for? Handcrafted carbon fiber ACME sportscar?
-
What the flip kind of car are you waiting for? Handcrafted carbon fiber ACME sportscar?
Methinks a Tesla Model 3.
How do I know? I have been lusting after one, but have not pulled the trigger yet :-)
-
Yeah, I don't think that humble-bragging about how long it takes to get a Tesla counts as a ridiculous thing the dealership is doing.
-
Here's a ridiculous thing. Scott Adam's car is worthless now, because of a paperwork error. Big O recorded the mileage wrong, which made it onto Carfax, who now says the car only has salvage value.
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/157447106751/the-paperwork-mistake-that-made-my-luxury-car
-
What the flip kind of car are you waiting for? Handcrafted carbon fiber ACME sportscar?
Methinks a Tesla Model 3.
How do I know? I have been lusting after one, but have not pulled the trigger yet :-)
And Tesla was very up front about the long delivery times and that they had not finished designing the car yet, so this is 100% caveat emptor.
-
Tesla - makes sense. I'd wait for a Tesla too. I was imagining what sort of Detroit or Asian brand car you could possibly wait that long for.
-
Yeah, I don't think that humble-bragging about how long it takes to get a Tesla counts as a ridiculous thing the dealership is doing.
You're right, it's not the dealership since Tesla has moved away from the dealership model, but it certainly is the manufacturer. Oddly most people accept this because it is a brand they believe in. I don't want the car, it's impractical for us (we move every couple of years so will have to ship it). My wife wants the car and it is a bit of humble bragging/self deprecation that we are fine being stupid with $1000 and giving them a 2 year interest free loan on the right to purchase a car at some unknown time in the future knowing relatively little about the car. My wife likes the idea and is willing to loan the company some money I guess. If Chevy was doing this with the bolt (I want a volt) there would be public outcry.
-
Yeah, I don't think that humble-bragging about how long it takes to get a Tesla counts as a ridiculous thing the dealership is doing.
You're right, it's not the dealership since Tesla has moved away from the dealership model, but it certainly is the manufacturer. Oddly most people accept this because it is a brand they believe in. I don't want the car, it's impractical for us (we move every couple of years so will have to ship it). My wife wants the car and it is a bit of humble bragging/self deprecation that we are fine being stupid with $1000 and giving them a 2 year interest free loan on the right to purchase a car at some unknown time in the future knowing relatively little about the car. My wife likes the idea and is willing to loan the company some money I guess. If Chevy was doing this with the bolt (I want a volt) there would be public outcry.
I should warn you that if you move overseas then you can't ship the Tesla, at least if it is shipped to Europe. The power connector will not work. EU Vehicles use a Type 2 plug, US vehicles use a Tesla specific plug.
If you're in the continental US then you can just drive the car wherever you move, just use the supercharger network.
The $1000 deposit has a bit of a history with Tesla. They did it for the Roadster and the Model S. So I guess it wouldn't be a Tesla launch without taking a deposit.
At least you can get a full refund if you decide not to get the car, and you get to configure the car as you like it when they are ready to build yours.
-
Here's a ridiculous thing. Scott Adam's car is worthless now, because of a paperwork error. Big O recorded the mileage wrong, which made it onto Carfax, who now says the car only has salvage value.
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/157447106751/the-paperwork-mistake-that-made-my-luxury-car
That's annoying. It also isn't all that hard to fix.
-
Heard yesterday on the radio: "Do you need $500? Come buy a car with 0% down and we'll give you $500!"
(paraphrased)
Actually went to a dealership Saturday to buy a car, and the salesman didn't want to drop the last $500 off the price to meet my stated budget. My dad and fiance were with me.
Salesman: "It's just $500"
Me: "$500 is a lot of money for me"
Dad: "Yeah when they (me) get a job they start realizing how hard they have to work for their money" *chuckles*
Salesman: "Well your fiance could give you $250, and your dad can give you $250, and that's $500" wtf
Dad: "She's already got enough of my money" *more chuckles*
Salesman: "Well how about I throw in a couple dollars (don't remember the # but it was less than $5) of my own money, and your dad and fiance can make up the difference" dude NO
The guy 'went back to the manager', and met my price.
I'm sure I could have gotten a better deal on Craigslist so it wasn't Mustachian, but I was in a bit of a hurry to get a car, paid below blue book .
-
Salesman: "Well your fiance could give you $250, and your dad can give you $250, and that's $500" wtf
Dad: "She's already got enough of my money" *more chuckles*
Salesman: "Well how about I throw in a couple dollars (don't remember the # but it was less than $5) of my own money, and your dad and fiance can make up the difference" dude NO
Was this dealership locked in some sort of 1930s time warp where women have to get permission and money from men to buy things??? Wow! I'm offended for you.
-
Yeah, I don't think that humble-bragging about how long it takes to get a Tesla counts as a ridiculous thing the dealership is doing.
You're right, it's not the dealership since Tesla has moved away from the dealership model, but it certainly is the manufacturer. Oddly most people accept this because it is a brand they believe in. I don't want the car, it's impractical for us (we move every couple of years so will have to ship it). My wife wants the car and it is a bit of humble bragging/self deprecation that we are fine being stupid with $1000 and giving them a 2 year interest free loan on the right to purchase a car at some unknown time in the future knowing relatively little about the car. My wife likes the idea and is willing to loan the company some money I guess. If Chevy was doing this with the bolt (I want a volt) there would be public outcry.
Used Volts aren't very expensive...
-
Several years ago, Oprah had a guest who was transitioning from male to female. There was a brief period where she could pass as either male or female depending on her dress and body language. She went to the same dealership twice, presenting as male, then female. She asked for the same information each trip.
Not surprisingly she got completely different responses from the dealers. As a man, they talked about performance and reliability. As a woman, it was all about color choice and cup holders. They also started with a higher price point to the woman. I can't remember if she had the same salesman or not.
Obviously there could be a million other variables at play, but it's not surprising that some dealers have asinine ideas about how to approach men and women differently.
-
Obviously there could be a million other variables at play, but it's not surprising that some dealers have asinine ideas about how to approach men and women differently.
So, about that: I bought a car while transitionning from one job to another (and therefore one company-provided cell to another), and gave the dealership my old and new numbers, as well as my now-husband's cell # as a back-up.
I took my car to the dealer's for oil and tire changes 3 times after getting it (in my defence, it was the only garage near either work or home, and I was young and ignorant...). I kept "updating" the file with my new phone number; they kept calling my now-husband to schedule appointments. After the third time, I asked WHY they couldn't get their files straight, as I SWEAR that I've updated my phone number with them 3 times.
Answer: "oh, well, cars usually belong to men, so we just always call the guy."
RAGE. FLAMES OF RAGE DOWN MY FACE.
For the record: this was MY car. That I paid for. With my money. I was the only person on ANY of the papers EXCEPT for the 1 single mention of my husband's cell phone number due to logistics. MY car. My husband, at the time, had poor enough credit that he didn't qualify for a cell phone (I didn't know that was POSSIBLE - and yes, he fixed that BEFORE we married, omg), had no money, and had no driver's license.
And THIS, ladies and gentlemen, is how you prompt women to learn how to change their own oil and drive to the garage 10km away instead of putting up with your shit.
-
RAGE. FLAMES OF RAGE DOWN MY FACE.
I immediately think of this scene from the movie Clue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l32a2f9Vypg
-
RAGE. FLAMES OF RAGE DOWN MY FACE.
I immediately think of this scene from the movie Clue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l32a2f9Vypg
Possibly with more screaming. Dead body stays though. ;)
-
I'm not scrolling back now to find the quote but someone asked about dealerships going for volume with ethical sales instead of sleaze.
I have a Nissan that I bought used from Subaru (with amazingly zero hassle) and my local Nissan dealership's service is really the best. I usually stay clear of service at the dealership but a few friends that have Nissan's swore the local one was one of the good guys. There is an independent mechanic near my office that I usually but I figured what the heck, I'd give them a shot. Their oil change and tire rotation is cheaper than even independent non-chain places. Every four, you get your fifth one free.
They have found and fixed things at no cost to me while it was under warranty without waiting for me to point out the issue or for a recall notice to be issued.
-
I have had good results from the independents here.
We have an independent tire dealer here in town that undersells (at least a little) the big box guys.
They do a great job and I have had mixed results with the big box tire places anyhow.
Can't use the local dealers here. They operate in a whole different financial universe from mine. ;)
-
Sorry my post wasn't clear. I used to use an independent mechanic near my office. I agreed to give my local Nissan a try. They were surprisingly cheaper and had better service. I am no longer a "never service at the dealership" person. Though I remain cautious. I'm afraid they lull you with stellar service and prices for a year and then you stop double checking and then they gauge you. LOL. I'm paranoid but so far it's been great.
-
RAGE. FLAMES OF RAGE DOWN MY FACE.
I immediately think of this scene from the movie Clue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l32a2f9Vypg
Love this movie.
-
Ridiculous things I have recently heard while price comparing for some maintenance work:
Me: What is your price for plug/coil replacement
Stealership: $500
me: <can't stifle the laugh> What, $500 to change some plugs?
Stealership: Yes sir, it's a complex process, it's $150 in parts and $350 in labor.
me: <click>
Spark plugs+coils cost about $10-15 a piece retail, and it's about a 30 minute job for a decent mechanic with a few simple tools (ratchet + spark plug socket).
Never, EVER use a dealership for service. They are often utterly criminal in their over charging. I'm fairly certain this particular dealership uses their service department as a sales tool. Overcharge the shit out of people with older cars so they think more about that shiny new car.
-
Ridiculous things I have recently heard while price comparing for some maintenance work:
Me: What is your price for plug/coil replacement
Stealership: $500
me: <can't stifle the laugh> What, $500 to change some plugs?
Stealership: Yes sir, it's a complex process, it's $150 in parts and $350 in labor.
me: <click>
Spark plugs+coils cost about $10-15 a piece retail, and it's about a 30 minute job for a decent mechanic with a few simple tools (ratchet + spark plug socket).
Never, EVER use a dealership for service. They are often utterly criminal in their over charging. I'm fairly certain this particular dealership uses their service department as a sales tool. Overcharge the shit out of people with older cars so they think more about that shiny new car.
I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs. My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs. The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break. (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.) Coils were a pain in the back too. And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.
It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job. But bad engineering can change that.
-
Ridiculous things I have recently heard while price comparing for some maintenance work:
Me: What is your price for plug/coil replacement
Stealership: $500
me: <can't stifle the laugh> What, $500 to change some plugs?
Stealership: Yes sir, it's a complex process, it's $150 in parts and $350 in labor.
me: <click>
Spark plugs+coils cost about $10-15 a piece retail, and it's about a 30 minute job for a decent mechanic with a few simple tools (ratchet + spark plug socket).
Never, EVER use a dealership for service. They are often utterly criminal in their over charging. I'm fairly certain this particular dealership uses their service department as a sales tool. Overcharge the shit out of people with older cars so they think more about that shiny new car.
I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs. My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs. The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break. (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.) Coils were a pain in the back too. And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.
It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job. But bad engineering can change that.
Yeah it definitely varies. I had a V8 Buick that took me about 2-3 hours (and multiple bleeding knuckles) to change the damn wires/plugs due to really obnoxious placement and everything in the way, but my current 4-cylinder Hyundai was about 20 minutes working at a leisurely pace. My old 3-cylinder Metro was even simpler, maybe 10 minutes.
-
I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs. My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs. The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break. (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.) Coils were a pain in the back too. And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.
It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job. But bad engineering can change that.
Maybe they are, but there's no reason for a dealer to not know how much effort every model takes (at least for the vehicles they sell). The car in question is the 4 plugs right there on top (well, under a replaceable plastic engine cover, gasp!).
Did you mean averaging the cost regardless of individual effort?
-
I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs. My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs. The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break. (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.) Coils were a pain in the back too. And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.
It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job. But bad engineering can change that.
Maybe they are, but there's no reason for a dealer to not know how much effort every model takes (at least for the vehicles they sell). The car in question is the 4 plugs right there on top (well, under a replaceable plastic engine cover, gasp!).
Did you mean averaging the cost regardless of individual effort?
At some level the dealership model relies heavily on the ignorance of the public to operate at a highly profitable level. I have repeatedly heard comments from industry insiders that there is no real money in selling new cars, but used vehicles sales and the service department make up for it, with a vengeance.
The average owner has no clue if swapping plugs is worth $75, or $750. Our CRV is an excellent example. I was going to have a dealer service the trans. To follow the maintenance schedule and to be able to have documentation, later down the road, if there is an issue. I called around. Two dealers wanted $99, one wanted $179. All were doing the exact same thing, dumping a bit over 3 qts. of Honda trans. fluid out, and putting the same amount back in. As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material. Every time a victim shows up at a dealer and pays $179 for the service, the tech. makes $10-15 on the job, the parts department charges $40, and the dealership end up with $120-130 for a 20 minute job. Now, keep a twenty bay service center busy, and generate that kind of revenue, and the result is a system where looking you in the eye and quoting $500 to do a job with $80 in parts, and half an hour is shop time, is just part of the game.
-
I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs. My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs. The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break. (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.) Coils were a pain in the back too. And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.
It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job. But bad engineering can change that.
Maybe they are, but there's no reason for a dealer to not know how much effort every model takes (at least for the vehicles they sell). The car in question is the 4 plugs right there on top (well, under a replaceable plastic engine cover, gasp!).
Did you mean averaging the cost regardless of individual effort?
That was what I was wondering... having the poor schmucks with well engineered autos subsidizing the other poor schmucks with stupidly engineered autos.
I took my PITA to a non-dealer mechanic to have my plugs/coils changed. I forget what it cost me, but I spent a good 30 minutes just scratching my head and wondering how the hell it would be done. Whatever they charged me I was happy to pay it. Gladly, that truck is gone and our current fleet is back to easily accessed engines.
-
As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material.
Which automatic Honda CR-V doesn't have a filter in the transmission (or gets ignored by the dealer)?
I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.
The inaccessible coils/plugs sometimes I hear of mechanics unbolting engine mounts and rotating/lifting engines to provide more access. I have one of those domestic FWD cars with the inaccessible spark plugs one side. I hope to never need to repeat that maintenance. It cost $12-$15 for parts but it took hours of aggravation. My other cars are four cylinders and the task takes 25 minutes and requires no cussing.
-
Ridiculous things I have recently heard while price comparing for some maintenance work:
Me: What is your price for plug/coil replacement
Stealership: $500
me: <can't stifle the laugh> What, $500 to change some plugs?
Stealership: Yes sir, it's a complex process, it's $150 in parts and $350 in labor.
me: <click>
Spark plugs+coils cost about $10-15 a piece retail, and it's about a 30 minute job for a decent mechanic with a few simple tools (ratchet + spark plug socket).
Never, EVER use a dealership for service. They are often utterly criminal in their over charging. I'm fairly certain this particular dealership uses their service department as a sales tool. Overcharge the shit out of people with older cars so they think more about that shiny new car.
I wonder if they're averaging the hourly rate of the really-difficult-to-replace coils/plugs with the right-there-on-top coils/plugs. My old Ford truck was not a 30 minute job and required specialized tools to even extract the back 4 plugs. The design is such that Ford *expects* the plugs to break. (There are a ton of forum threads in Ford forums about prevention of plug breaks.) Coils were a pain in the back too. And while there were aftermarket coils in the $9 range, the Motorcraft coils (that Ford would use) are $40+ retail.
It *shouldn't* be more than a 30 minute job. But bad engineering can change that.
Yeah it definitely varies. I had a V8 Buick that took me about 2-3 hours (and multiple bleeding knuckles) to change the damn wires/plugs due to really obnoxious placement and everything in the way, but my current 4-cylinder Hyundai was about 20 minutes working at a leisurely pace. My old 3-cylinder Metro was even simpler, maybe 10 minutes.
1989 oldsmobile cutlas supreme. front 2 plugs were ok to reach. Oldsmobile provided a loop attached to the engine, you put a pry bar on this loop, unbolt the engine, and use the prybar to rotate the engine so you can access the remaining 4 plugs. I didn't try that one myself. Our family had a mechanic friend that did car maintenance for cheap at the time.
-
As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material.
Which automatic Honda CR-V doesn't have a filter in the transmission (or gets ignored by the dealer)?
I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.
The lack of a filter, and the suggestion that dealers are avoiding doing the work correctly, are both assumptions on your part. A transmission that lasts nearly forever with scheduled maintenance is pretty much SOP in the CRVs. If you have a problem with a product that is extremely reliable, when give a modest amount of factory recommended service, don't buy one. Seriously.
-
As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material.
Which automatic Honda CR-V doesn't have a filter in the transmission (or gets ignored by the dealer)?
I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.
The lack of a filter, and the suggestion that dealers are avoiding doing the work correctly, are both assumptions on your part. A transmission that lasts nearly forever with scheduled maintenance is pretty much SOP in the CRVs. If you have a problem with a product that is extremely reliable, when give a modest amount of factory recommended service, don't buy one. Seriously.
I don't know the CRV... but a whole lot of auto tranny filters are not much more than a fine mesh screen. There's not always much to replace. It's meant to catch metal filings but not meant to screen out the dirt fines and carbon like an oil filter. And a lot of modern cars actually DO NOT have an official service interval for auto transmission fluid.
-
I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.
It's a lot of recent Honda vehicles, including the Odysseys. There *is* a filter that can be replaced, but doing so requires removing the transmission, as the filter is accessed from inside the transmission, on the side where it mates to the engine.
With the car repair work I've been doing lately, I think what I want in a car is a longitudinal engine (so that timing belts are easy to change), fewer cylinders rather than more, and a manual transmission. There's a lot to be said for maintainability. :)
-
As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material.
Which automatic Honda CR-V doesn't have a filter in the transmission (or gets ignored by the dealer)?
I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.
The lack of a filter, and the suggestion that dealers are avoiding doing the work correctly, are both assumptions on your part. A transmission that lasts nearly forever with scheduled maintenance is pretty much SOP in the CRVs. If you have a problem with a product that is extremely reliable, when give a modest amount of factory recommended service, don't buy one. Seriously.
I didn't say they didn't have a filter. I asked which one - so I can verify this for myself. A quick look at Rock Auto's catalog shows filters for CRV automatics at least for the random years that I looked for.
I'll admit I have trust issues especially with dealers who have lied to me many times. I don't trust independents much more but I have not caught them in lies like the dealers. With all shops I want to be informed before I deal with them. I've worked on my cars roughly 40 years now and have had cars last well beyond 300K miles so i must be doing something correctly.
Now there was supposedly a Honda transmission in some of the V-6 people haulers (Pilot, Odyssey, Ridgeline) for a year or so that did not age well. If I decide to buy one of those vehicles - I will find out if it was rumor or real. The rumor said that there was a non-user serviceable filter. I would avoid these vehicles if the rumor was real. My question about the CR-V was the first step of this process for that model.
I like Hondas and have owned several. We also have a couple of CR-Vs in the family that have been super. Don't know if we dodged a bullet (one has a clutch, the other does not).
Edit: Ah, I see that Zolotiyeruki has heard the same things. I have a domestic automatic and it's filter is much like Spork described. I do service both the fluid and the filter screen at purchase time (used car) b/c I can't be sure when it was done and then again however many miles later the manual suggests. Its cheap insurance b/c I do it myself.
Did this once on a pickup truck I drove and found chucks of metal in the pan. Was a wakeup call to sell it soon. Next buyer knew about the problem I assure you but I did not want to make the repairs myself.
Planning to do the same fluid/filter change on another of our cars this weekend.
-
As far as Honda is concerned, there is no filter replacement, dropping the pan, replacing gaskets, etc. Just, dump and refill, it's actually a lot easier and faster than changing the engine oil. I do it myself now, it takes ten minutes, and $28 in material.
Which automatic Honda CR-V doesn't have a filter in the transmission (or gets ignored by the dealer)?
I want to avoid that one on the used market. Seriously.
The lack of a filter, and the suggestion that dealers are avoiding doing the work correctly, are both assumptions on your part. A transmission that lasts nearly forever with scheduled maintenance is pretty much SOP in the CRVs. If you have a problem with a product that is extremely reliable, when give a modest amount of factory recommended service, don't buy one. Seriously.
I don't know the CRV... but a whole lot of auto tranny filters are not much more than a fine mesh screen. There's not always much to replace. It's meant to catch metal filings but not meant to screen out the dirt fines and carbon like an oil filter. And a lot of modern cars actually DO NOT have an official service interval for auto transmission fluid.
The last of the geared automatic CRVs (up to 2014) have intervals of 30K on the fluid change. Honda does not have a serviceable filter on that trans. and only calls for drain and fill, no flush machine allowed. AS a DIY task, if you can safely walk and pick your nose at the same time, you can tackle this. I know that the company had issues with their V-6 and van autos, but their other stuff is basically bulletproof. I've got a buddy who is a great independent mechanic. He always says that if everybody drove CRVs, he would be out of a job. He claims that anybody who even makes a half-assed attempt to take care of a CRV will typically be in the second decade of ownership, and past 200K miles before it needs anything but consumable maintenance items. They rarely fail or break.
-
Now there was supposedly a Honda transmission in some of the V-6 people haulers (Pilot, Odyssey, Ridgeline) for a year or so that did not age well. If I decide to buy one of those vehicles - I will find out if it was rumor or real. The rumor said that there was a non-user serviceable filter. I would avoid these vehicles if the rumor was real. My question about the CR-V was the first step of this process for that model.
Those were the V6's used in Odysseys and Accords in the 99-04 time range. Those actually had an easily-replaceable filter. The non-serviceable ones are newer.
-
Snake pit...er... car sales training video. "When that title comes back to you it acts just like a share of stock"
https://youtu.be/O1eB8ji7Kzg
-
Snake pit...er... car sales training video. "When that title comes back to you it acts just like a share of stock"
https://youtu.be/O1eB8ji7Kzg
Wow... After all the comments saying...
at that payment he paid almost 72000 for a 55000 dollar truck. 25000 might be retail with maybe 17 trade in value so he still paid 57k like i said in one of your previous videos smoke and mirrors lmao
and
$996/mo over 72 months for a $55k vehicle? That's 9.15% interest. Yikes.
He just responds:
You don't have the whole picture.
-
The last of the geared automatic CRVs (up to 2014) have intervals of 30K on the fluid change. Honda does not have a serviceable filter on that trans. and only calls for drain and fill, no flush machine allowed. AS a DIY task, if you can safely walk and pick your nose at the same time, you can tackle this. I know that the company had issues with their V-6 and van autos, but their other stuff is basically bulletproof. I've got a buddy who is a great independent mechanic. He always says that if everybody drove CRVs, he would be out of a job. He claims that anybody who even makes a half-assed attempt to take care of a CRV will typically be in the second decade of ownership, and past 200K miles before it needs anything but consumable maintenance items. They rarely fail or break.
As a matter of fact I'm replacing the engine in our CR-V today. Lasted 300K miles before the oil pump went out. More cost effective to install a JDM engine than it is to buy a replacement oil pump for $200+ for a wornout engine. Well, actually the engine is still good (switched off immediately) but worn. Transmission and chassis are still good too. Still on the original clutch which I will be replacing if the replacement engine's clutch is worn (shouldn't be, low mileage).
One of the realities of the next generation of vehicles is that very few are still available with a manual transmission. DW and I prefer a manual transmission. So with the four cylinder engines, usually the CVT is the transmission by default. The first 100K I think they are fairly bulletproof. If though a person keeps a car 250K miles or more, I expect it to need an expensive rebuild. Maybe earlier if that vehicle is used to tow a little - like ours always has. So the next step is to go looking to see how the "severe use" crowd gets along with these transmissions. Yeah - severe use is relative to the kind of vehicle. ;)
-
well, there are still plenty of 4cyl units out there with geared ( non-CVT) transmissions, and some builders may never head towards them, using 8-9 or more gears in their autos instead. As for costs, it can be pretty surprising. Many shops will no longer repair or rebuild transmissions, and will install replacement units from large remanufacturing companies. In the last few years I have had a clutch done on a VW and a trans. replaced on a Focus. The trans. was about $600 more. I would always question the durability of a CVT compared to a traditional auto. Nissan was an early adopter of the CVTs. I know the service writer at a Nissan dealer. She claims that their CVTs are not only pretty pathetic, but they are essentially disposable. They install several of them a week, most are customer pay, since they seem to last long enough to squeak through the warranty.
-
Yeah there was a CVT in the extended family that went out twice before 80K miles. Something was wrong with the design I suppose. Scary when manual transmissions can last hundreds of thousands of miles while a CVT can't make it to 100K in some circumstances. Yeah, I'll row my own gears happily. ;)
-
So in trying to live a more Mustachian life, my fiance and I decided that we needed to consolidate down from two vehicles to just one, and utilize the public transportation options around our town. There wasn't anything particularly bad about either vehicle, both paid off, reliable, and pretty fuel efficient. We actually ended up selling my car because the interior was in much better shape, and we figured we could get more money for it. Just finished that off this weekend actually.
The point of all that in this thread is that we needed to get a spare key for my fiance's Camry. Currently, she only has one copy of the original master key and a key fob. So naturally I decided we should get at least 1 spare, especially if this is going to be our only car going forward. We decided to go down to the Toyota dealership and see what the protocol for this was, and if all was good then get a copy made.
Quick digression, and I know this isn't all dealerships, but when did these places become campuses? I mean, I had to follow signs for the appropriate type of service I was coming there for and you pretty much had to drive from one to another. I've seen accredited academic institutions that have a smaller geographic footprint than this place.
So we wait around for the "parts guy" we'd been directed to finish his phone call (30% work / 70% screwing around) and then explain our situation. First part that was a bit odd, the kind of exaggerated air being pushed through pursed lips sound when I explained the make/model we were working with (2002 Camry), like that made his job harder by being an older car or something. It's a 15 year old Camry, not some crazy import, ya know? The key copy part was straightforward, check the VIN with some California registry and if all checks out then get a copy made right there. But the key fob... whoooo boy. Got to schedule a time with the service department, make sure to bring all existing key fobs, wait around for 30-1hr, and if all goes well then you're finished. And if there are any issues, well then it'll take more time. Oh yeah, hour of service time ($80) plus cost of additional key fob ($50) was gonna be $130 for just one more key fob it it went well. So, without being rude I very much let him know we were not interested in getting a key fob from the dealership.
I understand that sometimes dealerships do things in less time-effective ways in order to utilize available services they can charge for, but cost aside, the ineffectiveness in that workflow for adding a key fob for an existing car is painful. It's not my area of expertise so I'm hoping there's some security or technical reason they're at least doing it this way.
-
Do you really need another key fob? If your car keys don't have little security chips in them, you can just get a few copies made at your local hardware store. It's a pretty cheap service.
-
Looks like you can program a new key fob yourself. For example:
https://northcoastkeyless.com/2002-toyota-camry-keyless-entry-remote-programming-instructions/
-
Do you really need another key fob? If your car keys don't have little security chips in them, you can just get a few copies made at your local hardware store. It's a pretty cheap service.
Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your point of view), most cars from the last 15 years or so have come with transponder keys, which help deter theft, but also make replacement (or duplicate) keys far more expensive. Personally, I think car makers should give people the ability to disable the transponder functionality after 10 years or so, so you don't have to spend $100 on a new key for your 10-year-old car that nobody is going to bother trying to steal.
You *can* usually program your own key fobs, but not your own keys.
-
Do you really need another key fob? If your car keys don't have little security chips in them, you can just get a few copies made at your local hardware store. It's a pretty cheap service.
You're definitely right about not needing one. It was more along the lines of it'd be nice to have if the cost is in line with it's worth. That was definitely not the case from the dealership.
Looks like you can program a new key fob yourself. For example:
https://northcoastkeyless.com/2002-toyota-camry-keyless-entry-remote-programming-instructions/
Thanks for providing that information. Shortly after coming home from the dealership I'd looked up compatible key fobs on Amazon to get a sense of the actual cost but hadn't truly investigated the process for syncing them with a particular vehicle. That's definitely the best writeup of the process I've seen by a long shot though, so thanks for passing that along.
Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your point of view), most cars from the last 15 years or so have come with transponder keys, which help deter theft, but also make replacement (or duplicate) keys far more expensive. Personally, I think car makers should give people the ability to disable the transponder functionality after 10 years or so, so you don't have to spend $100 on a new key for your 10-year-old car that nobody is going to bother trying to steal.
You *can* usually program your own key fobs, but not your own keys.
Yeah. I'm with you on this. Usually enterprising individuals can figure out ways around the process but it would be nice to see some common-sense on the depreceated worth of the vehicles you're protecting taken into consideration after 10 years or so. I'm not getting a key to lock out criminals from breaking into my crappy-looking old Camry, it's so that I can start the car and possibly retrieve other keys that get locked in.
Here's the best guide I can find for reprogramming a Camry key from parts I can buy myself (on some person's God-based website of all places). It does not look like an especially easy process. http://www.abcgod.net/program-transponder-key-2002-toyota-camry.html
-
Yeah. I'm with you on this. Usually enterprising individuals can figure out ways around the process but it would be nice to see some common-sense on the depreceated worth of the vehicles you're protecting taken into consideration after 10 years or so. I'm not getting a key to lock out criminals from breaking into my crappy-looking old Camry, it's so that I can start the car and possibly retrieve other keys that get locked in.
I've never actually heard of someone stealing a car by making a physical duplicate (though I'm sure there are exceptions with divorces and other breakups). I'd rather not have the security chip in the key at all, with our Subaru it is around $400, if I recall, to get a spare key. Since we have never lost a car key, we are taking our chances on not getting an extra spare for the first time. What a money maker for the dealer.
-
For what it's worth, one method I've seen people do to "unchip" their RFID keys is to take a working RFID key and a knife and dig the chip out. You then open up the steering column (or pull the steering wheel, depending on your model) and tape that RFID inside the column. Now you just need a regular key.
-
For what it's worth, one method I've seen people do to "unchip" their RFID keys is to take a working RFID key and a knife and dig the chip out. You then open up the steering column (or pull the steering wheel, depending on your model) and tape that RFID inside the column. Now you just need a regular key.
I'm filing this away for future reference!
-
For what it's worth, one method I've seen people do to "unchip" their RFID keys is to take a working RFID key and a knife and dig the chip out. You then open up the steering column (or pull the steering wheel, depending on your model) and tape that RFID inside the column. Now you just need a regular key.
Nice! I have yet to own one of these darn newfangled RFID cars. :) Are the appropriate key blanks readily available at hardware stores to generate duplicates?
-
For what it's worth, one method I've seen people do to "unchip" their RFID keys is to take a working RFID key and a knife and dig the chip out. You then open up the steering column (or pull the steering wheel, depending on your model) and tape that RFID inside the column. Now you just need a regular key.
Have to be careful with that, as many cars also have security functionality that will refuse to lock the car if it detects a key inside. Also, it makes your car trivial to steal just like pre RFID cars. And remember, the most commonly stolen cars are not fancy expensive cars, but rather the most popular and older cars as they have the largest parts market which is what thieves really want your car for.
-
For what it's worth, one method I've seen people do to "unchip" their RFID keys is to take a working RFID key and a knife and dig the chip out. You then open up the steering column (or pull the steering wheel, depending on your model) and tape that RFID inside the column. Now you just need a regular key.
Have to be careful with that, as many cars also have security functionality that will refuse to lock the car if it detects a key inside. Also, it makes your car trivial to steal just like pre RFID cars. And remember, the most commonly stolen cars are not fancy expensive cars, but rather the most popular and older cars as they have the largest parts market which is what thieves really want your car for.
It would be easy to test in advance prior to pulling things apart.
I thought the most common thefts were relatively recent popular cars (2-5 years old) rather than older popular cars.
Personally, I prefer both the RFID and a physical key. I don't like the idea of "RFID in pocket" (as that's clonable by just passing you in the parking lot) nor do I like the idea of the old style key -- unless it's in a junker car that costs less than a duplicate key.
I know some manufacturers make it relatively easy to reprogram keys (as long as you have one working one) ... and some do not.
-
It would be easy to test in advance prior to pulling things apart.
I thought the most common thefts were relatively recent popular cars (2-5 years old) rather than older popular cars.
Personally, I prefer both the RFID and a physical key. I don't like the idea of "RFID in pocket" (as that's clonable by just passing you in the parking lot) nor do I like the idea of the old style key -- unless it's in a junker car that costs less than a duplicate key.
I know some manufacturers make it relatively easy to reprogram keys (as long as you have one working one) ... and some do not.
"RFID in pocket" isn't trivially cloneable with some basic encryption protections.
From http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/131638/how-can-rfid-nfc-tags-not-be-cloned-when-they-are-passive-technology
This means that half-duplex bidirectional communication is possible with RFID, thus the chip can do anything, and work like a contact smart-card. And as you know, a contact smart card with a security chip, that can securely store a key, and only perform operations with the key, is impossible to "clone" or "copy" as the key cannot be extracted. That's the security of smart cards, they cannot be cloned, and that's why they are preferred over magnetic strip cards.
-
For what it's worth, one method I've seen people do to "unchip" their RFID keys is to take a working RFID key and a knife and dig the chip out. You then open up the steering column (or pull the steering wheel, depending on your model) and tape that RFID inside the column. Now you just need a regular key.
Have to be careful with that, as many cars also have security functionality that will refuse to lock the car if it detects a key inside. Also, it makes your car trivial to steal just like pre RFID cars. And remember, the most commonly stolen cars are not fancy expensive cars, but rather the most popular and older cars as they have the largest parts market which is what thieves really want your car for.
It would be easy to test in advance prior to pulling things apart.
I thought the most common thefts were relatively recent popular cars (2-5 years old) rather than older popular cars.
Personally, I prefer both the RFID and a physical key. I don't like the idea of "RFID in pocket" (as that's clonable by just passing you in the parking lot) nor do I like the idea of the old style key -- unless it's in a junker car that costs less than a duplicate key.
I know some manufacturers make it relatively easy to reprogram keys (as long as you have one working one) ... and some do not.
Yep, easy to test.
But no, it's older cars that get stolen the most. Thieves steal cars to part them out; re-selling stolen vehicles whole is much harder to do. The market for parts of cars that are still under warranty is considerably smaller than cars that are out of warranty. Both because the owner doesn't have to pay for the parts or labor and because newer car models are less likely to need replacement parts (and also insured against collision damage). Varies by maker/warranty period of course. I'm not saying newer cars aren't also stolen, but older (old enough to be out of warranty and needing parts) popular models always top the lists of stolen vehicles. The typical "wisdom" that older, less shiny things are less desired by thieves does not apply to cars.
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/lock-it-these-are-10-most-stolen-cars-2015
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/10-most-stolen-vehicles-2.aspx
Keep your old car locked up =)
-
For what it's worth, one method I've seen people do to "unchip" their RFID keys is to take a working RFID key and a knife and dig the chip out. You then open up the steering column (or pull the steering wheel, depending on your model) and tape that RFID inside the column. Now you just need a regular key.
Have to be careful with that, as many cars also have security functionality that will refuse to lock the car if it detects a key inside. Also, it makes your car trivial to steal just like pre RFID cars. And remember, the most commonly stolen cars are not fancy expensive cars, but rather the most popular and older cars as they have the largest parts market which is what thieves really want your car for.
It would be easy to test in advance prior to pulling things apart.
I thought the most common thefts were relatively recent popular cars (2-5 years old) rather than older popular cars.
Personally, I prefer both the RFID and a physical key. I don't like the idea of "RFID in pocket" (as that's clonable by just passing you in the parking lot) nor do I like the idea of the old style key -- unless it's in a junker car that costs less than a duplicate key.
I know some manufacturers make it relatively easy to reprogram keys (as long as you have one working one) ... and some do not.
Yep, easy to test.
But no, it's older cars that get stolen the most. Thieves steal cars to part them out; re-selling stolen vehicles whole is much harder to do. The market for parts of cars that are still under warranty is considerably smaller than cars that are out of warranty. Both because the owner doesn't have to pay for the parts or labor and because newer car models are less likely to need replacement parts (and also insured against collision damage). Varies by maker/warranty period of course. I'm not saying newer cars aren't also stolen, but older (old enough to be out of warranty and needing parts) popular models always top the lists of stolen vehicles. The typical "wisdom" that older, less shiny things are less desired by thieves does not apply to cars.
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/lock-it-these-are-10-most-stolen-cars-2015
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/10-most-stolen-vehicles-2.aspx
Keep your old car locked up =)
I don't like the way it appears* this study was done. It looks like they just took the overall list of stolen cars and sorted by most frequently occurring of each model or model+year. But, I don't think this is a good method. I would like to see it as stolen cars in each model (or model+year) as a percentage of registered vehicles in each model (or model+year). So, because I am probably explaining this poorly:
If list of registered vehicles is
- 300 Corollas
- 20 Rams
- 6 Altimas
and the list of stolen cars is
...that makes it look like Corollas are the most likely to be stolen, Altimas mid-range, and Rams pretty safe. However, it's actually 2% of Corollas getting stolen, 5% of Rams, and 66.7% of Altimas. So, Corollas would actually be a safer bet than Altimas.
* I specify "appears" because the link back to the NICB website continues to give no further information except that it is numbers of vehicles.
-
I don't like the way it appears* this study was done.
Even within the same car model (e.g. the Accord, Civic), the older vehicles are the ones that pop up on the list of most stolen, not the newer ones. The Accord has has about ~400k per year produced going back 30 years, but it's still the older ones (mid nineties) being stolen the most in 2015. There's a bigger market for parts, the people who need those parts are less wealthy (and thus cheap stolen parts are in higher demand), and the cars themselves are easier to steal.
There's very little incentive to steal newer cars (as part of a criminal enterprise) unless you want to ship them overseas to be resold where their VINs aren't known, and only really expensive cars are worth that hassle. Much easier to steal something that can be parted out and easily sold in the grey market.
-
It would be easy to test in advance prior to pulling things apart.
I thought the most common thefts were relatively recent popular cars (2-5 years old) rather than older popular cars.
Personally, I prefer both the RFID and a physical key. I don't like the idea of "RFID in pocket" (as that's clonable by just passing you in the parking lot) nor do I like the idea of the old style key -- unless it's in a junker car that costs less than a duplicate key.
I know some manufacturers make it relatively easy to reprogram keys (as long as you have one working one) ... and some do not.
"RFID in pocket" isn't trivially cloneable with some basic encryption protections.
From http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/131638/how-can-rfid-nfc-tags-not-be-cloned-when-they-are-passive-technology
This means that half-duplex bidirectional communication is possible with RFID, thus the chip can do anything, and work like a contact smart-card. And as you know, a contact smart card with a security chip, that can securely store a key, and only perform operations with the key, is impossible to "clone" or "copy" as the key cannot be extracted. That's the security of smart cards, they cannot be cloned, and that's why they are preferred over magnetic strip cards.
I should probably not have used the word "cloned". But the exploit I know of is a very simple man in the middle attack:
* watch victim park car
* badguy1 stands at car
* badguy2 follows victim
* badguy1 has device that receives beacon from the car, transmits to badguy2. Badguy2 sends beacon to victim, which responds and it is sent back to badguy1.
Easy to set up with a couple of laptops/wifi. Minimally it will get the door open in broad daylight as if you are using the key. Looks totally innocent. This works great in mall parking lots or at restaurants/bars where you can easily get close and relay the beacon.
And some Megamo chipsets from just a few years back improperly had less than random seeds and had brute forcible keyspaces. I would bet there are lots of these still around.
And if you get out of the realm of car keys... things like office key cards are chock full of non-encrypted RFID cards. There was a Blackhat or Defcon presentation a few years back where they turned a metal door frame into a card reader and read every single badge as people walked through.
-
Serious thread drift here folks.
-
I don't like the way it appears* this study was done.
Even within the same car model (e.g. the Accord, Civic), the older vehicles are the ones that pop up on the list of most stolen, not the newer ones. The Accord has has about ~400k per year produced going back 30 years, but it's still the older ones (mid nineties) being stolen the most in 2015. There's a bigger market for parts, the people who need those parts are less wealthy (and thus cheap stolen parts are in higher demand), and the cars themselves are easier to steal.
There's very little incentive to steal newer cars (as part of a criminal enterprise) unless you want to ship them overseas to be resold where their VINs aren't known, and only really expensive cars are worth that hassle. Much easier to steal something that can be parted out and easily sold in the grey market.
I still say that the numbers they give aren't really useful to support those points. It might be more useful if they pointed out in which locations there are still large numbers of pre-2000 Hondas running and in-use available to be stolen. Are most of those stolen Hondas from high-crime areas where pre-2000 Hondas are the most common vehicle? Also, compare that to the (similarly useless) numbers for Toyotas. The Camry and Corolla only have the 2014 model year showing up on that list.
To save others from clicking "next" repeatedly: Single-page version of Bankrate link (http://deslide.clusterfake.net/?o=html_table&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bankrate.com%2Ffinance%2Fauto%2F10-most-stolen-vehicles-2.aspx)
Also, what I have gleaned from this discussion is that Spork is a dangerous utensil that I would not want to take in a tech-fight.
-
I don't like the way it appears* this study was done.
Even within the same car model (e.g. the Accord, Civic), the older vehicles are the ones that pop up on the list of most stolen, not the newer ones. The Accord has has about ~400k per year produced going back 30 years, but it's still the older ones (mid nineties) being stolen the most in 2015. There's a bigger market for parts, the people who need those parts are less wealthy (and thus cheap stolen parts are in higher demand), and the cars themselves are easier to steal.
There's very little incentive to steal newer cars (as part of a criminal enterprise) unless you want to ship them overseas to be resold where their VINs aren't known, and only really expensive cars are worth that hassle. Much easier to steal something that can be parted out and easily sold in the grey market.
I still say that the numbers they give aren't really useful to support those points. It might be more useful if they pointed out in which locations there are still large numbers of pre-2000 Hondas running and in-use available to be stolen. Are most of those stolen Hondas from high-crime areas where pre-2000 Hondas are the most common vehicle? Also, compare that to the (similarly useless) numbers for Toyotas. The Camry and Corolla only have the 2014 model year showing up on that list.
To save others from clicking "next" repeatedly: Single-page version of Bankrate link (http://deslide.clusterfake.net/?o=html_table&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bankrate.com%2Ffinance%2Fauto%2F10-most-stolen-vehicles-2.aspx)
Also, what I have gleaned from this discussion is that Spork is a dangerous utensil that I would not want to take in a tech-fight.
Did not RTFA but sounds like sloppy/lazy analysis that did not normalize for population size (size sold or size still on the road). I dont like this, I do good work but people are accustomed to sloppy work so they assume mine is also sloppy. This is why people think you can say anything you want with statistics.
-
I still say that the numbers they give aren't really useful to support those points.
You don't feel that a list of stolen vehicles by model year that very consistently shows 15+ year old vehicles being the most commonly stolen vehicle (within the same make and model!) to reasonably support what I am saying, which is that older vehicles are more commonly stolen than new vehicles? There are a LOT more 5-6 year old Accords, Camrys, Rams, F-150s, etc. still on the road than 15-20 year old vehicles of the same make. Those makes have all seen either consistent production or increases in production over time (full size trucks having a exception during the 07-12 time frame due to gas prices). And, of course, many of those older vehicles naturally are sitting in a junkyard, not in a driveway.
I don't disagree that there are many factors at play here and that the "study design" of my citations is probably very lax, but you're looking at an extremely consistent trend across many different vehicle types on nationwide scale. I'm not cherry picking data.
And, of course, I'm not basing this entirely on those numbers, but also on the realities of vehicle theft which is different from most consumer goods theft. Like I said the economics and logistics of vehicle theft clearly favor older cars. Tell me, why would you steal something that is (relatively) very difficult to steal that you can't easily profit on? Whole stolen vehicles are extremely difficult to resell due both to technological barriers (VINs, digital DBs, etc.) and law enforcement (government tracked ownership, etc.). Legitimate car dealers and purchasers won't touch something that is at all suspect. Further, there's no parts market for new vehicles due to warranties -- car manufacturers won't be buying your chop shop's grey market goods. New cars are simply a low value/ROI theft target.
Compare this to, say, electronic gadgets. Any electronic gadget more than a few years old is effectively worthless (can't be resold for more than a pittance), and there is no particularly strong effort made by society to stop theft of those types of things. Your laptop doesn't have its serial number and ownership history tracked in a central government database, it can easily be wiped and resold, etc. So naturally thieves target the new, shiny versions as those are the highest value/ROI targets.
-
Can we stop the thread drift? Analysis of stolen car trends and engine comparisons are interesting, but deserve their own threads.
I'm hoping we can go back to the comedy of dealership bullshit.
-
Can we stop the thread drift? Analysis of stolen car trends and engine comparisons are interesting, but deserve their own threads.
I'm hoping we can go back to the comedy of dealership bullshit.
Many years ago, the DW and I sat through the whole greasy experience of doing the paperwork for an off lease Altima at a Nissan dealer. After we left, the Finance guy forged paperwork to sign us up for the extended factory warranty. I got the first payment invoice, called the dealer and blew up on the phone. In response the dealer management basically told me to go fuck myself, since I couldn't prove it. At that point it was apparently a common occurrence with Nissan corporate. They weren't surprised to hear it, didn't give a rat's ass, refunded the charges immediately, and voided the warranty contract. A month later, thanks to my awful handwriting, Nissan finance processed my monthly payment check for $200 something, and misread the two as a seven. My bank processed it as a two, Nissan credited it as a seven. In any other case, I would of notified them of the error, but I remembered how the dealer told me to fuck off, and decided that I shouldn't interfere with Karma, and just enjoy the $500 bonus.
-
Several years ago, Oprah had a guest who was transitioning from male to female. There was a brief period where she could pass as either male or female depending on her dress and body language. She went to the same dealership twice, presenting as male, then female. She asked for the same information each trip.
Not surprisingly she got completely different responses from the dealers. As a man, they talked about performance and reliability. As a woman, it was all about color choice and cup holders. They also started with a higher price point to the woman. I can't remember if she had the same salesman or not.
Obviously there could be a million other variables at play, but it's not surprising that some dealers have asinine ideas about how to approach men and women differently.
If only I was in the market for a replacement car right now. This is pretty much where I am in my transition currently. I don't think the social experiment is worth my time if I'm not actually buying a car.
-
One of my life goals is to never buy a car from a dealership every again. I have done this once in my life and it was one time too many.
THIS
I hate dealerships... I hate feeling like I am not getting a good deal and I hate thinking that was the only way I could get a vehicle in a rush (bought a minivan) ... but I LOVE the van... and (finger's crossed) no problems with it yet AND its almost paid off :) (on a 0% 12month credit card!) :) 14,000
-
So I have been trying to sell a car and just had to share my latest experience. I have a third car and it is a corvette (go ahead and facepunch galore but it is up for sale). I have been trying to sell it and have already gotten a quote from CarMax so I can have a baseline. I had another carbuying dealership called Carworth call me and ask about my car. I figured what the hell I will take it down there and see what they say. I don't think they are used to dealing with owners like me. Firstly I am not desperate to sell at a loss and Second I don't need to move into another vehicle.
They did the whole pass around thing. The guy who set the meeting up was not the guy I had to deal with and then they brought in a third guy, we will get to that. So they get me my price and it is identical to the CarMax price so it is no go. They ask me why I am selling and I tell them that my finances have changed and I want to reduce overhead plus this car being older has a high interest rate. The buyer looks at me and says "What? Is it 15% to 20%" and I responded "Holy crap no it is 6%". Even so I don't think he figured out that he was out of his element.
He starts to try to figure out ways to get the difference between what I owe and what they want to give me for the car. So he calls another guy over and they start to talk to me about selling my van, that I own outright, back to me with a loan to cover the difference in the other car. I didn't have the heart to tell them that I have the money in the bank to pay the car off in entirety. I figured it was time to get out when they started talking about all the goofy financing shenanigans.
At the end of the day I figured these guys just prey on those that are in desperate situations. I am biding my time and waiting for the right buyer to come along which with a corvette should be in the next couple months and certainly with tax returns coming in there will be someone looking to blow it on a toy.
-
I've found that it is not always a salesperson preying on people, it's that they are not used to dealing with people that have their financial shit together. Yes, I know there are sleazy salesfolks, but salespeople are trained to sell to the masses and the masses are only interested in payments on the latest and greatest.
-
So I have been trying to sell a car and just had to share my latest experience. I have a third car and it is a corvette (go ahead and facepunch galore but it is up for sale). I have been trying to sell it and have already gotten a quote from CarMax so I can have a baseline. I had another carbuying dealership called Carworth call me and ask about my car. I figured what the hell I will take it down there and see what they say. I don't think they are used to dealing with owners like me. Firstly I am not desperate to sell at a loss and Second I don't need to move into another vehicle.
They did the whole pass around thing. The guy who set the meeting up was not the guy I had to deal with and then they brought in a third guy, we will get to that. So they get me my price and it is identical to the CarMax price so it is no go. They ask me why I am selling and I tell them that my finances have changed and I want to reduce overhead plus this car being older has a high interest rate. The buyer looks at me and says "What? Is it 15% to 20%" and I responded "Holy crap no it is 6%". Even so I don't think he figured out that he was out of his element.
He starts to try to figure out ways to get the difference between what I owe and what they want to give me for the car. So he calls another guy over and they start to talk to me about selling my van, that I own outright, back to me with a loan to cover the difference in the other car. I didn't have the heart to tell them that I have the money in the bank to pay the car off in entirety. I figured it was time to get out when they started talking about all the goofy financing shenanigans.
At the end of the day I figured these guys just prey on those that are in desperate situations. I am biding my time and waiting for the right buyer to come along which with a corvette should be in the next couple months and certainly with tax returns coming in there will be someone looking to blow it on a toy.
There is definitely a niche market of buying used vehicles from the desperate, stupid and/or uninformed. We don't have great access to legitimate Carmax type buyers, but there was a local buying outfit that advertised heavily in local media, offering to buy your ride no matter how much you owe. The media campaign and overall feel was classic sleazy, "buy here, pay here" caliber stuff. I gave then a call on an older Tahoe I wanted to dump. A legitimate local place offered me about $6K for it, since that was an honest wholesale number. The place that does all the local media push makes offers on the phone, sight unseen. They asked me to come on down, and if I had the title in hand, they would cut me a check for $3100. I just laughed. If you think about it, it's a great scam. In my case, I show up with the truck, even if it needs a grand or two in refurbishing, they still end up a few thousand below what it would cost to buy a similar rig at an auction, drag it back to the shop and do the detailing. If 10-20% of the folks that contact them are dumb enough to fall for it, they have a pretty successful business model. I sold the truck privately, to the first person that looked, for $7.5K.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
Enterprise did this to me last year. Wanted a "Nissan Versa or similar", got a fucking monster truck of a giant deluxe luxury package SUV. I don't care if it normally rents for $200/day, I don't want it. When I returned it, the guy eagerly asked if I liked it, and saying "No, but that's not the car's fault." deflated him pretty hard.
We pretty routinely get "upgrades" from Hertz when renting cars, but it's usually more along the lines of "Reserve a Chevy Spark, get a Ford Focus hatchback or Nissan Sentra" which I'm more OK with.
My favorite time was when the smarmy Hertz guy was grilling my GF to upgrade to a bigger car for her trip for only an extra $x/day (totally unnecessary, and she shot it down)... and then ended up just giving her that next class up anyway because that's what they had on hand. Thanks, guy, way to go.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
I have never had the unpleasant experience of getting stuck with one of these. That said, the automotive press is hardly in love with Fiat/Chrysler at the moment, and comments about why they ever built the Journeys at all, and why do they continue to do so, are pretty common. A cheap, poorly built, unreliable minivan, that two foot short of being usable as one, doesn't make a lot of sense. A friend attempts to use one as a family car, but it takes a lot of effort. The main computer is defective, and it's a common, well documented issue that FCA refuses to deal with. It does shit like randomly operating power windows with the key off and nobody near the thing. Pretty much a rolling reminder as to why it's best to avoid the brand.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
I have never had the unpleasant experience of getting stuck with one of these. That said, the automotive press is hardly in love with Fiat/Chrysler at the moment, and comments about why they ever built the Journeys at all, and why do they continue to do so, are pretty common. A cheap, poorly built, unreliable minivan, that two foot short of being usable as one, doesn't make a lot of sense. A friend attempts to use one as a family car, but it takes a lot of effort. The main computer is defective, and it's a common, well documented issue that FCA refuses to deal with. It does shit like randomly operating power windows with the key off and nobody near the thing. Pretty much a rolling reminder as to why it's best to avoid the brand.
It completely threw me off last night when I backed out of the airport parking and saw that there were two rows of passenger seating. Wait, what? There's only the four doors. How does that even work? I feel like such an ass driving this beast around by my lonesome and thinking "it's a good thing the government is paying for the fuel on this thing."
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
I have never had the unpleasant experience of getting stuck with one of these. That said, the automotive press is hardly in love with Fiat/Chrysler at the moment, and comments about why they ever built the Journeys at all, and why do they continue to do so, are pretty common. A cheap, poorly built, unreliable minivan, that two foot short of being usable as one, doesn't make a lot of sense. A friend attempts to use one as a family car, but it takes a lot of effort. The main computer is defective, and it's a common, well documented issue that FCA refuses to deal with. It does shit like randomly operating power windows with the key off and nobody near the thing. Pretty much a rolling reminder as to why it's best to avoid the brand.
It completely threw me off last night when I backed out of the airport parking and saw that there were two rows of passenger seating. Wait, what? There's only the four doors. How does that even work? I feel like such an ass driving this beast around by my lonesome and thinking "it's a good thing the government is paying for the fuel on this thing."
Few years back I got the "free upgrade" and ended up with a jeep wrangler-unlimited, was alright but very odd having manual locks and manual windows in a rental car. My customers insisted we take it off roading; and as they were paying the bills I did find a dirt lot with a mound for us to have a some fun.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
I have never had the unpleasant experience of getting stuck with one of these. That said, the automotive press is hardly in love with Fiat/Chrysler at the moment, and comments about why they ever built the Journeys at all, and why do they continue to do so, are pretty common. A cheap, poorly built, unreliable minivan, that two foot short of being usable as one, doesn't make a lot of sense. A friend attempts to use one as a family car, but it takes a lot of effort. The main computer is defective, and it's a common, well documented issue that FCA refuses to deal with. It does shit like randomly operating power windows with the key off and nobody near the thing. Pretty much a rolling reminder as to why it's best to avoid the brand.
It completely threw me off last night when I backed out of the airport parking and saw that there were two rows of passenger seating. Wait, what? There's only the four doors. How does that even work? I feel like such an ass driving this beast around by my lonesome and thinking "it's a good thing the government is paying for the fuel on this thing."
Few years back I got the "free upgrade" and ended up with a jeep wrangler-unlimited, was alright but very odd having manual locks and manual windows in a rental car. My customers insisted we take it off roading; and as they were paying the bills I did find a dirt lot with a mound for us to have a some fun.
I got a free upgrade to a Wrangle on Kauai a couple weeks ago, I friggin' love that thing. I wish I had the space for one and all the accouterments it comes with (removable hardtop, etc) but it doesn't fit my lifestyle. Oh well.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
I have never had the unpleasant experience of getting stuck with one of these. That said, the automotive press is hardly in love with Fiat/Chrysler at the moment, and comments about why they ever built the Journeys at all, and why do they continue to do so, are pretty common. A cheap, poorly built, unreliable minivan, that two foot short of being usable as one, doesn't make a lot of sense. A friend attempts to use one as a family car, but it takes a lot of effort. The main computer is defective, and it's a common, well documented issue that FCA refuses to deal with. It does shit like randomly operating power windows with the key off and nobody near the thing. Pretty much a rolling reminder as to why it's best to avoid the brand.
It completely threw me off last night when I backed out of the airport parking and saw that there were two rows of passenger seating. Wait, what? There's only the four doors. How does that even work? I feel like such an ass driving this beast around by my lonesome and thinking "it's a good thing the government is paying for the fuel on this thing."
The second row folds forward so you can access the third row - the same way you get to the back seats in a 2 door car?
-
Probably. I haven't tried it. It just seems like a strange layout. There's a total of three rows of seating and virtually no rear storage space.
-
Probably. I haven't tried it. It just seems like a strange layout. There's a total of three rows of seating and virtually no rear storage space.
It's like the old minivans. You chose between back seat room and cargo space. Which, honestly, 9 times out of 10 isn't a tough pick because you don't need both at once.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
I used to rent a car twice a month (out of town family, cheaper than buying and parking where I lived since I only used public transit otherwise) and Hertz would pull this regularly.
FYI, because It might help others: PROTEST. Every time, I'd say something like "I'm going to a place 160km away, and the difference between the Yaris i reserved and the jeep you're tying to get me to drive is an extra 25-30$ gas for the trip. On a 50-80$ car rental (depending on the deal and length of the rental...) that's unacceptable, and I'd like the car I reserved, please." And without fail they'd credit the extra gas cost just to get me to take the car they had and go away.
And I didn't make money off this - it DID cost an extra 25-30$, yay Quebec gas prices - but at least I didn't lose it every time they pulled the whole "upgrade" nonsense!
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
I have never had the unpleasant experience of getting stuck with one of these. That said, the automotive press is hardly in love with Fiat/Chrysler at the moment, and comments about why they ever built the Journeys at all, and why do they continue to do so, are pretty common. A cheap, poorly built, unreliable minivan, that two foot short of being usable as one, doesn't make a lot of sense. A friend attempts to use one as a family car, but it takes a lot of effort. The main computer is defective, and it's a common, well documented issue that FCA refuses to deal with. It does shit like randomly operating power windows with the key off and nobody near the thing. Pretty much a rolling reminder as to why it's best to avoid the brand.
It completely threw me off last night when I backed out of the airport parking and saw that there were two rows of passenger seating. Wait, what? There's only the four doors. How does that even work? I feel like such an ass driving this beast around by my lonesome and thinking "it's a good thing the government is paying for the fuel on this thing."
Few years back I got the "free upgrade" and ended up with a jeep wrangler-unlimited, was alright but very odd having manual locks and manual windows in a rental car. My customers insisted we take it off roading; and as they were paying the bills I did find a dirt lot with a mound for us to have a some fun.
I got a free upgrade to a Wrangle on Kauai a couple weeks ago, I friggin' love that thing. I wish I had the space for one and all the accouterments it comes with (removable hardtop, etc) but it doesn't fit my lifestyle. Oh well.
I've been drooling over these for awhile. Probably my next car; will fit my lifestyle great in about two years.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
I used to rent a car twice a month (out of town family, cheaper than buying and parking where I lived since I only used public transit otherwise) and Hertz would pull this regularly.
FYI, because It might help others: PROTEST. Every time, I'd say something like "I'm going to a place 160km away, and the difference between the Yaris i reserved and the jeep you're tying to get me to drive is an extra 25-30$ gas for the trip. On a 50-80$ car rental (depending on the deal and length of the rental...) that's unacceptable, and I'd like the car I reserved, please." And without fail they'd credit the extra gas cost just to get me to take the car they had and go away.
And I didn't make money off this - it DID cost an extra 25-30$, yay Quebec gas prices - but at least I didn't lose it every time they pulled the whole "upgrade" nonsense!
100 miles is $25-30 EXTRA in gas? Does not compute. Even for a round trip.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
I used to rent a car twice a month (out of town family, cheaper than buying and parking where I lived since I only used public transit otherwise) and Hertz would pull this regularly.
FYI, because It might help others: PROTEST. Every time, I'd say something like "I'm going to a place 160km away, and the difference between the Yaris i reserved and the jeep you're tying to get me to drive is an extra 25-30$ gas for the trip. On a 50-80$ car rental (depending on the deal and length of the rental...) that's unacceptable, and I'd like the car I reserved, please." And without fail they'd credit the extra gas cost just to get me to take the car they had and go away.
And I didn't make money off this - it DID cost an extra 25-30$, yay Quebec gas prices - but at least I didn't lose it every time they pulled the whole "upgrade" nonsense!
100 miles is $25-30 EXTRA in gas? Does not compute. Even for a round trip.
Canadian gas prices, perhaps? Maybe the Yaris gets 30mpg better than the Jeep and gas is 8 dollars a gallon? That would be close to that then.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
I used to rent a car twice a month (out of town family, cheaper than buying and parking where I lived since I only used public transit otherwise) and Hertz would pull this regularly.
FYI, because It might help others: PROTEST. Every time, I'd say something like "I'm going to a place 160km away, and the difference between the Yaris i reserved and the jeep you're tying to get me to drive is an extra 25-30$ gas for the trip. On a 50-80$ car rental (depending on the deal and length of the rental...) that's unacceptable, and I'd like the car I reserved, please." And without fail they'd credit the extra gas cost just to get me to take the car they had and go away.
And I didn't make money off this - it DID cost an extra 25-30$, yay Quebec gas prices - but at least I didn't lose it every time they pulled the whole "upgrade" nonsense!
100 miles is $25-30 EXTRA in gas? Does not compute. Even for a round trip.
Canadian gas prices, perhaps? Maybe the Yaris gets 30mpg better than the Jeep and gas is 8 dollars a gallon? That would be close to that then.
This was when gas was 1.60-80/liter (3 years ago or so...)... 160 km x 2 (round trip)...
Quebec gas prices suck. In conclusion. (Currently about 1.10$/liter, and that's considered really low).
-
So that would only require the Yaris to get roughly 20km/ liter better fuel efficiency than the Jeep to save $30 over 320 km at those prices. Don't know much about the yaris fuel usage, but that would be the math.
-
Probably. I haven't tried it. It just seems like a strange layout. There's a total of three rows of seating and virtually no rear storage space.
The Chevy Equinox/Buick Enclave/GMC ? has the same arrangement - hinged doors, three rows of seating and not much luggage space. Its a minivan for people who fear being seen in a minivan. I've driven them. Nice enough but not appealing enough to me to own.
-
Probably. I haven't tried it. It just seems like a strange layout. There's a total of three rows of seating and virtually no rear storage space.
The Chevy Equinox/Buick Enclave/GMC ? has the same arrangement - hinged doors, three rows of seating and not much luggage space. Its a minivan for people who fear being seen in a minivan. I've driven them. Nice enough but not appealing enough to me to own.
LOL that's exactly what it is...well, except for the fact that it gets worse gas mileage and has less cargo capacity than a minivan :)
-
A minivan or Sprinter would be better - carry people or things. More width., less curvy interior design.
-
I received this as a funny today.
"A retired older couple return to a Mercedes dealership where the salesman has just sold the car they were interested in to a beautiful, leggy, busty blonde in a mini skirt and a halter top.
The old man was visibly upset. He spoke to the salesman sharply. "Young man, I thought you said you would hold that car till we raised the $55,000 asking price," said the older man. "Yet I just heard you closed the deal for $45,000 to the lovely young lady there."
"And if I remember right, you had insisted there was no way you could discount this model." The salesman took a deep breath, cleared his throat and reached for a large glass of water. "Well, what can I tell you? She had the cash ready, didn't need any financing help, and, Sir, just look at her, how could I resist?", replied the grinning salesman sheepishly.
Just then the young woman approached the senior couple and gave the car keys to the old man...
"There you go," she said. "I told you I could get that idiot to lower the price...."
"See you later, Dad, Happy Father's day."
-
That's clearly a story. Car dealers will reach over their dying grandmother for a dollar on the ground; no way they'll give up ten grand over of a mini skirt.
-
Probably. I haven't tried it. It just seems like a strange layout. There's a total of three rows of seating and virtually no rear storage space.
The Chevy Equinox/Buick Enclave/GMC ? has the same arrangement - hinged doors, three rows of seating and not much luggage space. Its a minivan for people who fear being seen in a minivan. I've driven them. Nice enough but not appealing enough to me to own.
That is so funny. My wife got a minivan to drive a few years ago after I had spent years selling her on it. Once she got in it she absolutely loved it and wondered how we lived without one. She actually made me buy an SUV instead of a minivan just because she deplored the thought of having one.
One of her friends gave her a rash of crap for getting a minivan. I told my wife that this is the same person that has a vehicle with less utility, a higher step in height, and worse gas mileage. Her friend had a Buick Enclave.
I had another guy that I knew and he wanted a wagon so bad but his wife had a small Honda suv. I had met with him to pick up some wheels and he pointed at the SUV and said "Just take that thing and lower the ride height and you have a wagon" and shook his head.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
I used to rent a car twice a month (out of town family, cheaper than buying and parking where I lived since I only used public transit otherwise) and Hertz would pull this regularly.
FYI, because It might help others: PROTEST. Every time, I'd say something like "I'm going to a place 160km away, and the difference between the Yaris i reserved and the jeep you're tying to get me to drive is an extra 25-30$ gas for the trip. On a 50-80$ car rental (depending on the deal and length of the rental...) that's unacceptable, and I'd like the car I reserved, please." And without fail they'd credit the extra gas cost just to get me to take the car they had and go away.
And I didn't make money off this - it DID cost an extra 25-30$, yay Quebec gas prices - but at least I didn't lose it every time they pulled the whole "upgrade" nonsense!
100 miles is $25-30 EXTRA in gas? Does not compute. Even for a round trip.
Canadian gas prices, perhaps? Maybe the Yaris gets 30mpg better than the Jeep and gas is 8 dollars a gallon? That would be close to that then.
Let's say the Yaris gets 35 mpg and the Jeep gets 19 mpg. That equates to 8.07 km/l for the Jeep and 14.88 km/l for the Yaris. Over 320 km, the jeep will need 18.1 additional liters of gas. At $1.70 per liter, that's $30.77.
-
Probably. I haven't tried it. It just seems like a strange layout. There's a total of three rows of seating and virtually no rear storage space.
The Chevy Equinox/Buick Enclave/GMC ? has the same arrangement - hinged doors, three rows of seating and not much luggage space. Its a minivan for people who fear being seen in a minivan. I've driven them. Nice enough but not appealing enough to me to own.
That is so funny. My wife got a minivan to drive a few years ago after I had spent years selling her on it. Once she got in it she absolutely loved it and wondered how we lived without one. She actually made me buy an SUV instead of a minivan just because she deplored the thought of having one.
One of her friends gave her a rash of crap for getting a minivan. I told my wife that this is the same person that has a vehicle with less utility, a higher step in height, and worse gas mileage. Her friend had a Buick Enclave.
I had another guy that I knew and he wanted a wagon so bad but his wife had a small Honda suv. I had met with him to pick up some wheels and he pointed at the SUV and said "Just take that thing and lower the ride height and you have a wagon" and shook his head.
Do people in other countries have such serious hangups about what they drive? WHY do Americans have such a hangup over wagons and minivans? DW and I are contrarians anyhow so we wouldn't care what anyone thought about our transportation.
We are shopping wagons, small SUVs and minivans next time round. Need something with folding rear seats so we can occasionally carry stuff i.e. hardware store trips, estate sales, and camping.
-
Probably. I haven't tried it. It just seems like a strange layout. There's a total of three rows of seating and virtually no rear storage space.
The Chevy Equinox/Buick Enclave/GMC ? has the same arrangement - hinged doors, three rows of seating and not much luggage space. Its a minivan for people who fear being seen in a minivan. I've driven them. Nice enough but not appealing enough to me to own.
That is so funny. My wife got a minivan to drive a few years ago after I had spent years selling her on it. Once she got in it she absolutely loved it and wondered how we lived without one. She actually made me buy an SUV instead of a minivan just because she deplored the thought of having one.
One of her friends gave her a rash of crap for getting a minivan. I told my wife that this is the same person that has a vehicle with less utility, a higher step in height, and worse gas mileage. Her friend had a Buick Enclave.
I had another guy that I knew and he wanted a wagon so bad but his wife had a small Honda suv. I had met with him to pick up some wheels and he pointed at the SUV and said "Just take that thing and lower the ride height and you have a wagon" and shook his head.
Do people in other countries have such serious hangups about what they drive? WHY do Americans have such a hangup over wagons and minivans? DW and I are contrarians anyhow so we wouldn't care what anyone thought about our transportation.
We are shopping wagons, small SUVs and minivans next time round. Need something with folding rear seats so we can occasionally carry stuff i.e. hardware store trips, estate sales, and camping.
Who knows about buying habits in other countries, but note that you are kind of all over the map as far as size of vehicles. If you look at the most popular SUVs, they are compact 2 row SUVs (Honda CRV, Toyota Rav4, Ford Escape). Minivans are quite a bit larger than that (A Honda Odyssey is nearly 2 feet longer than a CRV), and have three rows. So it is entirely possible that someone would have their needs met perfectly by a CRV, and find a minivan way too big. When people say someone should buy a minivan over a Chevy Suburban or other large SUV, that's a valid point. When it's a minivan over a 2-row SUV/CUV, it can make a lot less sense, since not everyone wants the significantly larger vehicle. Wagons are too niche to generalize, they can be large or small, cheap or expensive, but they're pretty thin on the ground.
-
Yeah, we prefer the smaller 2-row SUVs/wagons.
A minivan is good if we decide we want to be able to take our children plus friends further than across town. Currently we avoid that situation but it comes up from time to time. Minivan > three row SUV.
When we have more than five people in our party we take both our cars. Not as eager to take two cars to the beach several states away and rental prices are pretty steep for a week's use.
Still cheaper to drive two cars to the beach every three years than buy something larger.
-
we had to buy our last car when my wife, 6 months pregnant, was hit by an idiot. the Audi convertible she was in saved both her and the baby from a direct minivan hit on the baby. So I asked what car she wanted and she said an A6 this time. Used, but done. can't argue that.
we find 2 in the area with the specs she wants. 2008 (this is late 2015 at the time) so we get approved at the credit union since they were doing 0.25% interest. Find a used one at a Ford dealer, drive, agree on price, go to do paperwork. I got fed up with the finance guy after the 6th or so repeated attempt to get me to finance with them. I just kept saying "beat the rate and I'll sign it now". couldn't be done. Now shut up dirt bag.
then they sit us down with the "upgrades consultant" who is dressed like a hooker. more plastic parts than the car had. Anyway, she keeps trying to sell us upgrades the car already had. I guess they are used to dealing with idiots who need chrome everything, but we politely told her to shut up too. We were getting pissed, and my wife who still had bloody bandages on her head was getting tired of this shit, too.
finally we said you have 5 minutes to hand us the keys and let us leave with it or we're never coming back.
it's frustrating someone with their shit together financially has to put up with such bullshit. I am trying to pay you money for this product. shut the F up and let that conclude the transaction!
-
we had to buy our last car when my wife, 6 months pregnant, was hit by an idiot. the Audi convertible she was in saved both her and the baby from a direct minivan hit on the baby. So I asked what car she wanted and she said an A6 this time. Used, but done. can't argue that.
we find 2 in the area with the specs she wants. 2008 (this is late 2015 at the time) so we get approved at the credit union since they were doing 0.25% interest. Find a used one at a Ford dealer, drive, agree on price, go to do paperwork. I got fed up with the finance guy after the 6th or so repeated attempt to get me to finance with them. I just kept saying "beat the rate and I'll sign it now". couldn't be done. Now shut up dirt bag.
then they sit us down with the "upgrades consultant" who is dressed like a hooker. more plastic parts than the car had. Anyway, she keeps trying to sell us upgrades the car already had. I guess they are used to dealing with idiots who need chrome everything, but we politely told her to shut up too. We were getting pissed, and my wife who still had bloody bandages on her head was getting tired of this shit, too.
finally we said you have 5 minutes to hand us the keys and let us leave with it or we're never coming back.
it's frustrating someone with their shit together financially has to put up with such bullshit. I am trying to pay you money for this product. shut the F up and let that conclude the transaction!
Dealer upgrades on a used car? WTF they taking over the pimp-your-ride market? Would you like NOS with your order?
That upgrades consultant was surely 'built' for the job.
-
Not exactly a dealership, but I'm out on business driving a rental this week. I arrived at the airport at 8pm and I had to wait while they cleaned and prepared my vehicle. I originally requested a compact car, but was told I received a free upgrade and it seemed like I didn't have much of a choice but to take it. They ended up giving me a Dodge Journey. I don't like driving trucks anymore since they're difficult to use in cities and finding parking and I don't really consider this an "upgrade." Giving me a larger vehicle is not doing me any favors.
Enterprise did this to me last year. Wanted a "Nissan Versa or similar", got a fucking monster truck of a giant deluxe luxury package SUV. I don't care if it normally rents for $200/day, I don't want it. When I returned it, the guy eagerly asked if I liked it, and saying "No, but that's not the car's fault." deflated him pretty hard.
We pretty routinely get "upgrades" from Hertz when renting cars, but it's usually more along the lines of "Reserve a Chevy Spark, get a Ford Focus hatchback or Nissan Sentra" which I'm more OK with.
My favorite time was when the smarmy Hertz guy was grilling my GF to upgrade to a bigger car for her trip for only an extra $x/day (totally unnecessary, and she shot it down)... and then ended up just giving her that next class up anyway because that's what they had on hand. Thanks, guy, way to go.
This was a lot longer than I expected, but it's along the lines of rental companies and reasons to FIRE ASAP, maybe you'll enjoy it.
For work maybe 6 or 7 years ago, I had to rent an SUV to drive a bunch of equipment 500 miles, do some tests for a week, then drive it back. One of our prototypes was broken and needed to be diagnosed ASAP in order to be considered for a contract. At the time it was the product that was going to save the company. The designers of it weren't willing to go, so they sent me since I had performed some verification testing on it at one time and worked on other similar products. I had to bring a lot of equipment, so I asked the person who handles renting vehicles for a large SUV. Well the company was struggling, so she kept trying to get me into something smaller. Eventually I had to go measure all the equipment and check out the dimensions of 5 "midsized" SUVs (basically the CRV's and similar SUV's), so that I could make sure all my equipment would fit in one size smaller vehicle. I spent half a day doing this, to save what, $10/day for a week?
So the next day, I go pick up my "midsized" SUV, and they try to give me the keys to a Jeep Wrangler. On the website they had listed 5 SUVs then said "or similar." Sorry this isn't similar to the other 5. In fact (when I got back from the trip I checked), it was listed on the "small" SUV. That just wasn't going to work.
So I called my company rental contact to let her know of the problem, and started calling other rental places to see what they had. Eventually I found one with a large SUV who had one ready. It was a Friday, I was going to work through the weekend, but in order to use my equipment where I was going, it had to get checked in that day, or I couldn't use it until Monday. By this time, I had an 8 hour drive, and 9-10 hours to get there. So if I picked up the vehicle right then, threw all my equipment in as fast as I could, I would probably make it as long as there wasn't any major construction or wrecks or anything.
I called back my rental contact to say I found something. She starts dragging her feet saying a large SUV was not approved and she would have to find something else. I end up calling the VP of engineering, who puts the rental on his personal CC, I pick it up, pack everything, skip lunch, and have a late dinner after getting all the equipment where it needed to go.
Saturday, I figure out a redundant sensor was giving bad readings on one of the boards. I reprogramed it to basically ignore that sensor so that the customer could get back to testing it. Then hung out there for a week waiting for a new board to arrive. Replaced the board and came home.
In the end, the product met all the requirements, and testing finished on schedule, but they went with someone who met like half the "requirements" for a third of the cost. I had warned about a year and a half earlier at the system requirements review, there was no way they were going to pay what it would cost to meet all of the requirements. So that did not save the company. They had maybe 2 or 3 other products that would save the company before they eventually closed, but I had moved on before then.