Author Topic: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you  (Read 15270 times)

Gerard

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retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« on: March 30, 2015, 03:27:31 PM »
There's often good stuff on Boomer & Echo, but this column really misses the mark:
http://www.boomerandecho.com/on-retirement-early-or-never/

We learn, for example, that not going to work is selfish, that if everyone retires nothing will get done, and that 16% of all people who retire early die before they're 65. Anybody care to hazard a guess what percent of *people* die before they're 65?

Logic_Lady

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2015, 04:18:26 PM »
There's often good stuff on Boomer & Echo, but this column really misses the mark:
http://www.boomerandecho.com/on-retirement-early-or-never/

We learn, for example, that not going to work is selfish, that if everyone retires nothing will get done, and that 16% of all people who retire early die before they're 65. Anybody care to hazard a guess what percent of *people* die before they're 65?

Wow this article makes no sense. So many errors to pick apart. In fact I couldn't resist firing back in the comments section. That 16% figure sounds like a good reason to retire early--those 16% got to enjoy some retirement, if they'd waited for traditional retirement age they would have died before they retired. Not to mention there may not be a correlation at all.

Additionally, maybe people who retire early are more likely to die early because healthier people are ableto keep working longer, whereas sick people may be forced to retire early because they can't work anymore. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

Then the author makes a distinction between early retirement and financial independence that imo is a distinction without a difference. If I become financially independent and quit work to write a novel, how is that actually different from early retirement?

Indexer

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2015, 04:29:33 PM »
Quote
16% of people who retired before age 55 had died by age 65.

Of that 16% what % retired because they had a terminal illness? 



Edit:  Sorry to anyone the previous comment offended.  I was not trying to make fun of people who are disabled.  I was targetting more the people who abuse the system to get benefits.  That still isn't really an excuse... 

I'm am sincerely sorry for the previous comment.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 07:21:55 PM by Indexer »

dividendman

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2015, 04:43:44 PM »
Sedentary desk work and the stress of jobs has been proven time and again to be a huge factor in many health problems...

So, if you're out and active in your early retirement you are probably going to do better than the desk jockey folks.

caliq

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2015, 04:44:45 PM »
Quote
16% of people who retired before age 55 had died by age 65.

Of that 16% what % retired BECAUSE they were disabled or had a terminal illness? 

Most people who retire before 55 don't do it because they have saved and they can financially afford to do it.  Many people retire because they become disabled and have to retire and they are getting a disability check every month.

Mustachian early retiree:  lets travel, manage real estate, ride bikes, grow a garden, other healthy stuff!

Disabled early retiree:  drive car to Wal mart.  Drive motorized chair around the Wal mart.  Put random junk food in basket.  Go home, watch Jerry Springer and reality TV.  Fall asleep on couch covered in cheetos.  Repeat....


Hmmm.... I wonder which early retiree might pass before 65?

Ok, so I might have been hard on the disabled person.  Some people are disabled for legitimate reasons.  If you ever walk into a Wal Mart most of the people on those motorized things look like they got there all on their own.

Are you fucking serious with this shit?

Just a note, pretending like it was a joke doesn't make it any less offensive.  In fact, I was so angry that I hit 'quote' and wrote out an entire reply to your first horrible statement before even reading the last paragraph where you tried to redeem yourself.  You clearly knew it was wrong to write something so hateful, and felt a bit guilty about it, but decided to hit 'post' anyways? 

Oh yeah, and my Marine who gets a disability check and has a panic attack every time he goes into a Walmart (unless it's between the hours of 11 pm-4 am or so) would have some serious words for you on this subject. 

Annamal

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2015, 04:49:50 PM »
Quote
16% of people who retired before age 55 had died by age 65.

Of that 16% what % retired BECAUSE they were disabled or had a terminal illness? 

Most people who retire before 55 don't do it because they have saved and they can financially afford to do it.  Many people retire because they become disabled and have to retire and they are getting a disability check every month.

Mustachian early retiree:  lets travel, manage real estate, ride bikes, grow a garden, other healthy stuff!

Disabled early retiree:  drive car to Wal mart.  Drive motorized chair around the Wal mart.  Put random junk food in basket.  Go home, watch Jerry Springer and reality TV.  Fall asleep on couch covered in cheetos.  Repeat....


Hmmm.... I wonder which early retiree might pass before 65?

Ok, so I might have been hard on the disabled person.  Some people are disabled for legitimate reasons.  If you ever walk into a Wal Mart most of the people on those motorized things look like they got there all on their own.

Are you fucking serious with this shit?

Just a note, pretending like it was a joke doesn't make it any less offensive.  In fact, I was so angry that I hit 'quote' and wrote out an entire reply to your first horrible statement before even reading the last paragraph where you tried to redeem yourself.  You clearly knew it was wrong to write something so hateful, and felt a bit guilty about it, but decided to hit 'post' anyways? 

Oh yeah, and my Marine who gets a disability check and has a panic attack every time he goes into a Walmart (unless it's between the hours of 11 pm-4 am or so) would have some serious words for you on this subject.

+ 1
(seriously hope you never have to deal with a disability Indexer, it sounds like you have a very limited idea of what it entails).

forummm

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2015, 05:59:01 PM »
Between the job killing me and retiring early killing me, I'll go with retiring early.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2015, 07:43:21 PM »
Between the job killing me and retiring early killing me, I'll go with retiring early.

This +1

MrsPete

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2015, 08:33:46 PM »
Evidence that even the worst drivel has SOMETHING positive:  I liked the term Findependence (financial + independence).  It sounds like the type of word that should be written in red, white and blue ... the tittle of the "i" being a star instead of a simple dot. 

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2015, 08:50:48 PM »
Evidence that even the worst drivel has SOMETHING positive:  I liked the term Findependence (financial + independence).  It sounds like the type of word that should be written in red, white and blue ... the tittle of the "i" being a star instead of a simple dot.

I have to +1 because I love the term "Tittle"!!!

zephyr911

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2015, 07:07:38 AM »
Wow.
My current primary motivation for achieving FIRE is that the work I want to do is more likely to be successful if I don't have to get paid for it.
I plan on working my ass off to achieve great things for the good of humanity. But I'm selfish and will die young because of it, eh?
Sounds like they're misreading a phenomenon that was discovered years ago: people who retire and have nothing to do are unlikely to live long. Conversely, those with a hobby, a daily routine, or some goals to work for, tend to do well - they are physically and mentally healthier and as a result their life expectancy is higher.

MrsPete

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2015, 10:10:38 AM »
Evidence that even the worst drivel has SOMETHING positive:  I liked the term Findependence (financial + independence).  It sounds like the type of word that should be written in red, white and blue ... the tittle of the "i" being a star instead of a simple dot.

I have to +1 because I love the term "Tittle"!!!
I worked, for a time, as a proofreader.  I know any number of next-to-useless terms dealing with typography. 
Sounds like they're misreading a phenomenon that was discovered years ago: people who retire and have nothing to do are unlikely to live long. Conversely, those with a hobby, a daily routine, or some goals to work for, tend to do well - they are physically and mentally healthier and as a result their life expectancy is higher.
I don't understand people who don't have interests, who can't fill their time outside work. 

TreeTired

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2015, 10:31:41 AM »
hmmm...  I considered it my most selfless act ever when I left a good job for someone who needed it more than I did. 

zephyr911

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2015, 10:38:36 AM »
I don't understand people who don't have interests, who can't fill their time outside work.
It comes down to the old nature vs. nurture argument. If you believe we're all fundamentally inquisitive and creative creatures, then these can only be explained by a life of formal education and cookie-cutter work environments squashing the life out of that part of their brains.
Or maybe some people just really are that uninterested/ing.
I don't get it either. I was like 20 when I started imagining what I'd be like in my old age. I've always hoped I'd be the cool old guy that the kinds come to for stories and occasional advice. Definitely not the "get off my lawn" type. I plan on trying not to get too set in my ways, staying excited about the inevitable rapid pace of change in the middle 21st century, and helping put that change into the larger context of human evolution. I can't imagine just getting my check and sitting in front of the TV all day.

MgoSam

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2015, 01:45:01 PM »
Selfish? I suppose that's like calling people that are childfree selfish as well, smh.

Cookie78

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2015, 01:54:54 PM »
Between the job killing me and retiring early killing me, I'll go with retiring early.

This +1

Seconded!

frugledoc

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2015, 02:09:42 PM »
Retiring early is not selfish.    Your job position will free up and hopefully somebody younger and ambitious will be able to take the opportunity.  If everybody carried on working for as long as they could there would be far fewer job opportunities for the young.

One Noisy Cat

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2015, 04:19:07 PM »
    Celebrating six months of being self-indulgent and selfish....and loving it!  I always thought I was doing a favor to the two people hired to replace me when I retired.  But nooooo! Why should I act on my instincts when these guys are here to correct my ignorance.

    I've known people who worked into their 80s and claimed to love it. Not for me but different strokes for different folks. It's not inconceivable that someday I will take a job for stimulation. But for now, I find rest and hobbies stimulating enough.

deborah

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2015, 04:54:21 AM »
There have been a number of studies done about retirement killing you more quickly. From several countries, and several different universities/research places. I retired several years ago, and before I retired I read several of these studies, which all came to the same conclusion. The hypothesis was that people needed work to give meaning to their life. I figured that I had penty of hobbies to give meaning to my life, and I wouldn't be one of those statistics.

At the time a new study came out, looking at retirees in France (from the state run electrical company?). This had been done using health records from some enormous number of people (17,000?) from a few years before they retired to about 10(?) years after they retired. The graphs actually showed that on average people gained five years of health in the first two (?) years after they left work. Note: all this is my memory of this study.

I think that if your live has value and meaning to you, ER is a very good thing. From personal experience, the change in quality of life is immense! Maybe I had it worse than others, but my workplace was very confrontational, and though I always enjoyed the work, the stress made me a bad person. This has changed so much since ER!

There has always been a group of ER people around - they were once the aristocracy, and many of the clergy, who had land holdings that paid them to do whatever they liked - usually not much of anything. Unfortunately, in the 100 years since retirement was invented for ordinary people, it has been synonymous to being "useless" rather than highly thought of with everyone doffing hats at you. I think many of the studies show poor outcomes because of this definition rather than an inherent flaw with ER.

dcheesi

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2015, 06:35:39 AM »
As for retirement being selfish: I believe that we're at a point where there's less useful work to be done in our society than there are people to do it. And that imbalance will only get worse as productivity continues to rise. By retiring once you've earned enough, you're moving out of the way so another person can earn their keep as well.

LalsConstant

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2015, 06:47:08 AM »
As for retirement being selfish: I believe that we're at a point where there's less useful work to be done in our society than there are people to do it. And that imbalance will only get worse as productivity continues to rise. By retiring once you've earned enough, you're moving out of the way so another person can earn their keep as well.

Exactly.  Forget the idea of early retirement for a second.  Do we not generally consider it to be the responsibility of each person to fashion some means of indefinite support for themselves at such time they are no longer economically viable?  Far more responsible is it to obtain what is needed and then leave the trough, as it were.

mak1277

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2015, 11:02:19 AM »
I have no need to moralize about it...I want to retire early for purely selfish purposes.  I have no aspirations to save the world, and I'm basically planning to retire so I can do whatever I want to do to make me happy.

I also don't particularly care how anyone else reacts to that.  Call me selfish I'll agree.  Doesn't change a thing.


boarder42

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2015, 11:29:20 AM »
check out jonsnow's ER ... he has gotten extremely healthy since retiring. 

zephyr911

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2015, 12:18:47 PM »
Selfish? I suppose that's like calling people that are childfree selfish as well, smh.
That bullshit trope pisses me off more than anything. I choose not to procreate for a whole list of reasons, most of which relate to the betterment of the human race.
Does being childless make it easier to get rich? Of course it does. And I take advantage of that result, by occasionally helping my siblings who did reproduce, contributing to the aid of disadvantaged children, and working toward a better world for all the babies everyone else is making.

Most of the money I'm putting away, and most of the work I will do after FIRE, will never benefit me personally, and could help many others if it succeeds. And my wife dreams of helping children in her poor hometown through education and other support - something I plan to help her do, on a scale beyond her imagination. But yeah, we're selfish. *spits* fuck that noise.

Bob W

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2015, 08:57:15 AM »
Obviously out of touch with the current trend.   

It takes fewer and fewer people each year to provide the services and goods we desire.   So in a relatively few years 10% of people can produce all the products and services we all need. 

What happens then?  Do we only pay working people and have 90% of the population in poverty (which is kinda how it is headed now)  or do we acknowledge that work is not a fundamental aspect of the human condition and figure a way to pay everyone.

I much prefer the pay ever adult in the US 18K per year while doing away with SS, Disability, Food Stamps, welfare,  etc..   People would still choose to work at times.  The downside that about 50% of state and federal worker in the poverty industry would no longer have a job with a fat pension. 

CptCool

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2015, 09:35:15 AM »
Obviously out of touch with the current trend.   

It takes fewer and fewer people each year to provide the services and goods we desire.   So in a relatively few years 10% of people can produce all the products and services we all need. 

What happens then?  Do we only pay working people and have 90% of the population in poverty (which is kinda how it is headed now)  or do we acknowledge that work is not a fundamental aspect of the human condition and figure a way to pay everyone.

I much prefer the pay ever adult in the US 18K per year while doing away with SS, Disability, Food Stamps, welfare,  etc..   People would still choose to work at times.  The downside that about 50% of state and federal worker in the poverty industry would no longer have a job with a fat pension.

How would you control inflation? If $18k is the new $0 (everyone gets that amount), then wouldn't the price of goods/services increase proportionately?

Cpa Cat

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2015, 09:44:09 AM »
My dad retired at 50 - he was offered an early retirement buyout during a company merger and he took it.

He died at age 54 of a heart attack.

He enjoyed those 4 years of retirement very much.

But according to this, he should have just kept working... and then died at age 54. Because 4 years of retirement is worthless if you're just going to die anyway.


mm1970

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2015, 10:14:28 AM »
hmmm...  I considered it my most selfless act ever when I left a good job for someone who needed it more than I did.
I know, right?

I've been called "selfish" actually for taking a really good paying job that some MAN really NEEDS to support his family!

Kaspian

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2015, 10:42:16 AM »
Fuck all that.  I'd rather die a free man than live as a slave.   ...So us all trying to be FIRE are "self-indulgent" while watching the rest of the world piss away their cash on cruises, restaurants, and cable TV?  Umm.. Who's self-indulgent again?

Bob W

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2015, 10:55:13 AM »
Obviously out of touch with the current trend.   

It takes fewer and fewer people each year to provide the services and goods we desire.   So in a relatively few years 10% of people can produce all the products and services we all need. 

What happens then?  Do we only pay working people and have 90% of the population in poverty (which is kinda how it is headed now)  or do we acknowledge that work is not a fundamental aspect of the human condition and figure a way to pay everyone.

I much prefer the pay ever adult in the US 18K per year while doing away with SS, Disability, Food Stamps, welfare,  etc..   People would still choose to work at times.  The downside that about 50% of state and federal worker in the poverty industry would no longer have a job with a fat pension.

How would you control inflation? If $18k is the new $0 (everyone gets that amount), then wouldn't the price of goods/services increase proportionately?

So the $18K would replace Soc Sec,  Disability,  Food Stamps,  rent subsidies,  AFDC.  So the average welfare recipient now receives that amount or more and then there is something like a 50% government cost in delivering that.   Basically,  you are eliminating a bunch of middlemen bureaucrats.

Plus if say 40% of people that work now are no longer needed to produce an even greater level of goods and services than we currently have we would be more likely headed for deflation.   

Imagine 40% fewer cars on the road at rush hour.   

So who knows?  The current crop of youngsters are moving to a single person,  city dwelling,  walk to work scenario.   

Kinda off thread,  but I never agreed with the Protestant work ethic crap anyway.   For most of time,  people spent a large amount of time on family and recreation time.   We really aren't designed to be "workers."    In the past they were called "slaves"  then some smart lads figured out if we called them "workers"   they become more productive and think they are free. 

Cookie78

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2015, 11:02:00 AM »
In the past they were called "slaves"  then some smart lads figured out if we called them "workers"   they become more productive and think they are free.

I REALLY like this.

Luck12

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2015, 11:07:58 AM »
Kinda off thread,  but I never agreed with the Protestant work ethic crap anyway.   For most of time,  people spent a large amount of time on family and recreation time.   We really aren't designed to be "workers."    In the past they were called "slaves"  then some smart lads figured out if we called them "workers"   they become more productive and think they are free.

LOL.  I nearly spit out my water! 

HairyUpperLip

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2015, 01:40:21 PM »
Kinda off thread,  but I never agreed with the Protestant work ethic crap anyway.   For most of time,  people spent a large amount of time on family and recreation time.   We really aren't designed to be "workers."    In the past they were called "slaves"  then some smart lads figured out if we called them "workers"   they become more productive and think they are free.

hahaha. That's awesome. :)

Paper_Route

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2015, 01:49:09 PM »



Kinda off thread,  but I never agreed with the Protestant work ethic crap anyway.   For most of time,  people spent a large amount of time on family and recreation time.   We really aren't designed to be "workers."    In the past they were called "slaves"  then some smart lads figured out if we called them "workers"   they become more productive and think they are free.

Yes, you can't buy people any more, now you have to rent them.

mm1970

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2015, 03:11:23 PM »
In the past they were called "slaves"  then some smart lads figured out if we called them "workers"   they become more productive and think they are free.

I REALLY like this.
+1

Brad_H

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2015, 04:06:13 PM »
Oh yeah, and my Marine who gets a disability check and has a panic attack every time he goes into a Walmart (unless it's between the hours of 11 pm-4 am or so) would have some serious words for you on this subject.

Does your Marine know you use em as a tool to shame people on the internet, because mine would be mortified.

caliq

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2015, 04:33:10 PM »
Oh yeah, and my Marine who gets a disability check and has a panic attack every time he goes into a Walmart (unless it's between the hours of 11 pm-4 am or so) would have some serious words for you on this subject.

Does your Marine know you use em as a tool to shame people on the internet, because mine would be mortified.


...didn't you effectively just use yours to shame me?  Bit of the pot calling the kettle black there.

My husband knows I spend time on this forum and is perfectly open about his disabilities, actually.  There's nothing mortifying about having a medical condition. 

Psychstache

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2015, 05:57:56 PM »
so the lesson of the day is that you can't own people, unless they are a Marine  :)

caliq

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2015, 06:45:36 PM »
so the lesson of the day is that you can't own people, unless they are a Marine  :)

Meh, I don't see the issue in shortening 'My husband, a Marine, ....' to 'my Marine' 

Sorry for offending ;) 

Course, we could just have non-mainstream relationship dynamics that require the possessive pronoun xD
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 06:49:33 PM by caliq »

Gerard

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2015, 06:35:32 AM »
Following up on what we call workers and their employers, some linguistic trivia for Friday:

The term "boss" comes from a Dutch word for the leader/organizer of a group of contract employees (a business owner would contact the bas, who would gather up the necessary workers for a job -- kind of like a general contractor).

After the revolutionary war, Americans didn't want to call the person who paid them "master" any more, because they were free (they were fine with slaves having "masters", but that's another issue). So people in the New York City ("New Amsterdam") area who were familiar with the "bas" thing started using that word to describe their employer, because it sounded more egalitarian. And it caught on!


dividendman

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2015, 11:08:56 AM »
Following up on what we call workers and their employers, some linguistic trivia for Friday:

The term "boss" comes from a Dutch word for the leader/organizer of a group of contract employees (a business owner would contact the bas, who would gather up the necessary workers for a job -- kind of like a general contractor).

After the revolutionary war, Americans didn't want to call the person who paid them "master" any more, because they were free (they were fine with slaves having "masters", but that's another issue). So people in the New York City ("New Amsterdam") area who were familiar with the "bas" thing started using that word to describe their employer, because it sounded more egalitarian. And it caught on!

Did those "bas" 's do stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NisCkxU544c? Otherwise I don't think they can be called boss anymore.

Noriko

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2015, 03:53:39 PM »
16% die before reaching 65? According to the CDC, 13.4% of the general population die before 65. So there's a 2.6% higher chance of dying early. And like other posters have said, some of those numbers are bumped up from those who were forced to retire due to health conditions.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf
See page 11. I averaged the 60-65 and the 65-70 brackets.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 04:14:54 PM by Noriko »

infogoon

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Re: retiring early is self-indulgent, and will kill you
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2015, 10:56:43 AM »
We learn, for example, that not going to work is selfish, that if everyone retires nothing will get done, and that 16% of all people who retire early die before they're 65. Anybody care to hazard a guess what percent of *people* die before they're 65?

My wife and I have both had family members drop dead of heart attacks in their mid-50s.

One of the reasons I want to retire early is so that, if that does happen, I won't be punching a clock the day before I croak.