The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: WhiteTrashCash on May 14, 2017, 01:07:30 PM
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My wife just started a new job and some of her co-workers told her about this amazing company called ShareDesk (https://www.sharedesk.net/ (https://www.sharedesk.net/)) where you can rent desk space for an hour or two at a time while you are on the road to complete work. It's like AirBnB for temporary work spaces. My wife stared at them dumbfounded and then asked them why they don't just go to the local public library wherever they are traveling and use their space for free instead. It had literally never occurred to these people. :-P
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A library? That den of iniquity where you might learn - gasp!! - facts about something?
NO
o
o
o
o
!!!!!
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Or just set up a tray table in the alley behind a strip club? Sit on an overturned plastic bucket, and go right to work.
Know why you don't see so many derelicts passed out in alleys anymore? Because they are down at the library, alternately snoozing and leering at the kiddies over in the kiddy section.
Downtown, anyway. It's a bit more normal in the remaining municipal libraries in the 'burbs.
Free office space! Wow.
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I was travelling for work the other day, and had to postpone a skype meeting because I couldn't find a good place to do that. I thought about the library, but they still frown if people sit and talk rather loudly for a couple of hours. Also, although they have decent internet, it isn't great. So this is definitely something I will be checking out. Will probably bill my employer, though.
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Also, that site has crazy cheap conference rooms compared to the places we normally book. Thank you for the link!
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These are the advantages of most coworking spaces over our area's libraries:
dramatically quieter
a room to use a phone without disturbing others
commercial copier, scanner, fax machine - fast, and allow printing from personal laptop/device
address to receive business mail at
place to meet with clients (where applicable)
conference rooms for larger meetings
free fancy coffee all day long :)
kitchen for storing or making your own lunch
shower
bathroom without having to pack everything up for security
shared meals, beer time, etc
yet no one is drunk, obnoxious, etc
networking with other groovy people
assistance from other smart people re: resolving tech issues, finding business resources, etc
full-day parking (vs move car at least one block every two hours)
...all for pretty cheap
I've heard that some US libraries are fancier (offering scanning!!) but the above are why folks in my region use coworking vs libraries.
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Or just set up a tray table in the alley behind a strip club? Sit on an overturned plastic bucket, and go right to work.
Know why you don't see so many derelicts passed out in alleys anymore? Because they are down at the library, alternately snoozing and leering at the kiddies over in the kiddy section.
Downtown, anyway. It's a bit more normal in the remaining municipal libraries in the 'burbs.
Free office space! Wow.
Um, do you live on skid row or something? I'm trying to figure out where what you are describing could possibly resemble the experience the average person has in a library.
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Renting office space and conference rooms is not antimustachian. Paying high rent for a monthly lease when you don't need office space except for meeting clients is not mustachian.
Not sure what rural area you live in, but every library in a major city I have been in is indeed quite the favorite hangout for the homeless. Which is fine for working solo, but not great for actual paying client interaction.
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My last three municipal (vs rural) libraries are like bobechs describes :( The rural ones are great fall through early spring, then are inundated with, um, stuff...
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Renting office space and conference rooms is not antimustachian. Paying high rent for a monthly lease when you don't need office space except for meeting clients is quite mustachian.
Not sure what rural area you live in, but every library in a major city I have been in is indeed quite the favorite hangout for the homeless. Which is fine for working solo, but not great for actual paying client interaction.
I love how everyone assumes that I live in a rural area because my library is nice. I mean, I used to live in a rural area and our library was nice there, but now I live in the suburbs with other successful people. Every town's library is extremely nice when you live in the suburbs -- and in most small cities as well. I'm trying to understand where people are coming from in their responses to this thread, because it sounds like an alien planet to me. Then again, I've been using libraries all my life rather than paying full price for books at stores, so maybe I'm more used to being around the kind of people you find in libraries. They really aren't scary when you get to know them.
You know what's also not scary: Taking a ride on a city subway. Nothing threatening about it at all.
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Or just set up a tray table in the alley behind a strip club? Sit on an overturned plastic bucket, and go right to work.
Know why you don't see so many derelicts passed out in alleys anymore? Because they are down at the library, alternately snoozing and leering at the kiddies over in the kiddy section.
Downtown, anyway. It's a bit more normal in the remaining municipal libraries in the 'burbs.
Free office space! Wow.
Don't forget the creepy dudes looking at porn on the computer. Fun!
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Hey WTC, I don't assume anything about you.
I just posted this to your Journal in response to your thoughts there, but pasting here for the sake of this conversation:
WTC, this isn't true of me. I'm the furthest thing from bourgie-esque, lived on the streets for too long, live very modestly now, etc. But, as noted on the thread, my last three municipal libraries have become day shelters for people who have severe addiction, no where else to go, no where to bathe, and lots of symptoms I don't want my kid around and that also overwhelm me PTSD-wise from my own shelter days, etc.
I think it's a matter of having very different libraries? i.e., You'd have to see it to believe it, kinda thing.
I think people left to homelessness should indeed have a day shelter at the very least [and therefore volunteer in one]. I just don't like hanging out in a dayshelter when I don't have to anymore [and am not actively working in one to keep it open].
I've used libraries heavily my whole life, and got put off only the last few years, when this shift in use happened. The three I didn't like have full-time security guards now, and police are regularly called to attend.
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I'm just going to chip in to agree with joon- the majority of libraries I've used have been lovely, quiet, peaceful places. Some even have bookable work rooms for exactly that purpose! There have, however, been others that are not. It can be hard to work or concentrate when the smell of alcohol or BO is so strong that you can smell it from over 10' away, and with the schizophrenics behaving well but still muttering to themselves with the odd shout. Security guards at the door are normal for these ones. I am happy they have a safe, warm place with running water to be in, and I still went and got books every week, but it wasn't a good place to stay for long periods. For reference, in the last 7 years I've lived in 9 cities, visited several more and have gone to the library, often multiple branches, in almost every single one for books, internet, local advice, shelter from rain, and cool architecture. :) Seattle (love the OMA branch (http://oma.eu/projects/seattle-central-library)!), Toronto (reference branch is awesome (http://mtarch.com/projects/toronto-reference-library-revitalization/)), Vancouver, Sydney, Montreal (http://www.patkau.ca/project/gbq.htm#) and New York to name a few of the big ones, and another 7+ cities in the 6-90k population range.
I've never owned a car and agree public transit is cheap and awesome plus they are great free life drawing opportunities!
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The Seattle Public Library downtown is filled with homeless people too, probably one in three patrons at any given time. They are quiet and don't bother anyone. Some people really hate the idea of having homeless in there, not sure why.
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Or just set up a tray table in the alley behind a strip club? Sit on an overturned plastic bucket, and go right to work.
Know why you don't see so many derelicts passed out in alleys anymore? Because they are down at the library, alternately snoozing and leering at the kiddies over in the kiddy section.
Downtown, anyway. It's a bit more normal in the remaining municipal libraries in the 'burbs.
Free office space! Wow.
Um, do you live on skid row or something? I'm trying to figure out where what you are describing could possibly resemble the experience the average person has in a library.
Tulsa.
Anchorage.
Waco.
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The Seattle Public Library downtown is filled with homeless people too, probably one in three patrons at any given time. They are quiet and don't bother anyone. Some people really hate the idea of having homeless in there, not sure why.
Yep. I too can't imagine being bothered by a clean, quiet person not bothering anyone.
I think the matter for a lot of us isn't so much "homeless vs housed" but noise/belligerence/severe symptoms/needles/violence/etc. Those issues aren't divided by housed/unhoused, but an unhoused person who happens to have any of that going on obviously can't do those at home.
I was one of those quiet, gentle, peaceful homeless people. But at that time, the library I was near had a strict policy about people who were unable to provide an address for a library card to stay longer than an hour at a time. Was very frustrating, as I and others had nowhere else to go when it was cold, rainy, 40 C+, etc. That's why I'm glad they've since converted some to dayshelters.
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This does seem silly if all one is doing is sitting and typing TPS reports. I one is only typing and internet-ing, it wouldn't even really matter if there was a homeless man, or even a porn-watcher, three cubes over, unless things were very intense But the moment any client/customer/management interaction is needed, I don't see how a library would work.
As a middle ground, if one's local library branch is really untenable, researching other branches, especially those in wealthier pockets of town, seems like it might work. Again, not practicable if one is interacting with clients, but if looking for a pleasant, quiet work space, driving an extra 12 minutes to a suburban library with more upscale clientele is still surely cheaper than renting a desk.
So overall, whether this is anti-mustachian or not depend on the type of work being done, and the type of library resources available.
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During the day our library tends to have screaming toddlers... (It's quieter in the evening, though the rooms are almost always booked full.)
Plus there is only one printer, and no other business services.
I wouldn't want to try to get much work done there.
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You know what's also not scary: Taking a ride on a city subway. Nothing threatening about it at all.
I don't know about that. My one trip to NYC was pretty weird. One week and several episodes later and I was ready to race back to flyover country.
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During the day our library tends to have screaming toddlers...
Oh yeah, forgot about that one! This is the case in one of the libraries in my circuit (many towns away). Like, absolute shrieking and rolling, ages 0-9, all day long and merely intensifying 3pm onward. I can never believe it, so always trick myself into trying it again. I don't get it, but I've assumed that town has no child rec centre, much like these other three have no dayshelter for people with intense addictions.
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During the day our library tends to have screaming toddlers...
Oh yeah, forgot about that one! This is the case in one of the libraries in my circuit (many towns away). Like, absolute shrieking and rolling, ages 0-9, all day long and merely intensifying 3pm onward. I can never believe it, so always trick myself into trying it again. I don't get it, but I've assumed that town has no child rec centre, much like these other three have no dayshelter for people with intense addictions.
Libraries aren't whisper quiet anymore. I recall people being shushed when they spoke in the library in the past but that doesn't seem to happen anymore. Most libraries tend to be loud, the one near my office is a pain to try to get any work or reading done even in one of their private rooms. The library near me is 2 stories, with the bottom having a section for children and the fiction and nonfiction books (as well tables, chairs, and comfy chairs for reading). I like working at this library for that reason.
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Another consideration if you're considering a long day is security; it's a PITA to pack up all your stuff every time you want to go pee/poop, get a snack or a drink, step out for a phone call, etc. Assuming a rented office space is secure enough to leave a laptop for 20 minutes that's a huge advantage.
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You have all convinced me entirely. Well done. On a completely unrelated note, I'm selling 3D pancake printers for super cheap. Any takers?
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You have all convinced me entirely. Well done. On a completely unrelated note, I'm selling 3D pancake printers for super cheap. Any takers?
????
Surely our experiences count for something, WhiteTrashCash? Like, it can be awesome that there are some excellent libraries suitable for typing in, and also totally acceptable that some across North America have been essentially converted to additional purposes that make them not so, with cowork stations an excellent new option?
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During the day our library tends to have screaming toddlers...
Oh yeah, forgot about that one! This is the case in one of the libraries in my circuit (many towns away). Like, absolute shrieking and rolling, ages 0-9, all day long and merely intensifying 3pm onward. I can never believe it, so always trick myself into trying it again. I don't get it, but I've assumed that town has no child rec centre, much like these other three have no dayshelter for people with intense addictions.
Our city has a rec center, but the library is heavily geared toward childhood literacy. Tons of programming, stations with games, child sized chairs, etc. There is often a book reading that may include music and dancing. There are also computers specifically for job seekers, but the library is no longer a place for quiet research.
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During the day our library tends to have screaming toddlers... (It's quieter in the evening, though the rooms are almost always booked full.)
Plus there is only one printer, and no other business services.
I wouldn't want to try to get much work done there.
Wait a second, so you're telling me that you have found both poor people and children at the library? Oh. My. God. The place may as well be a leper colony!
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Hey WTC, I don't assume anything about you.
I just posted this to your Journal in response to your thoughts there, but pasting here for the sake of this conversation:
WTC, this isn't true of me. I'm the furthest thing from bourgie-esque, lived on the streets for too long, live very modestly now, etc. But, as noted on the thread, my last three municipal libraries have become day shelters for people who have severe addiction, no where else to go, no where to bathe, and lots of symptoms I don't want my kid around and that also overwhelm me PTSD-wise from my own shelter days, etc.
I think it's a matter of having very different libraries? i.e., You'd have to see it to believe it, kinda thing.
I think people left to homelessness should indeed have a day shelter at the very least [and therefore volunteer in one]. I just don't like hanging out in a dayshelter when I don't have to anymore [and am not actively working in one to keep it open].
I've used libraries heavily my whole life, and got put off only the last few years, when this shift in use happened. The three I didn't like have full-time security guards now, and police are regularly called to attend.
You must live in Portland.
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WTC - am sorry you dont see the utility in this, or think the alternatives are great or that it is over priced but having spent much time traveling for work into random cities I can tell you I would happily spend 20$ of my employers money here. Working in your hotel room gets very old - sometimes you just need to get out. Hotel business centers are ok but 95% of the time are rather sad or have the same shit wifi as the hotel or dont have open desk space. Working at Starbucks/panera is ok but you are limited by your balder and you have to buy something. Am I going to rush out and use the site near my home - no - but I have bookmarked it for use in future.
A guaranteed power outlet, coffee, printer and I can leave things out while I hit the head? Yes I will fill out an expense report for that.
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During the day our library tends to have screaming toddlers... (It's quieter in the evening, though the rooms are almost always booked full.)
Plus there is only one printer, and no other business services.
I wouldn't want to try to get much work done there.
Wait a second, so you're telling me that you have found both poor people and children at the library? Oh. My. God. The place may as well be a leper colony!
You realize, of course, that isn't what they said. Why do you feel the need to be condescending because other people see value in this? Does it make you feel foolish for having posted it, so now, instead of recognizing your first reaction didn't take into account all factors, you feel the need to attack people who point out it may not be useless?
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The defensive posts might be from the shock of realizing how one looks when implying other people are foolish without fully understanding the possible reasons.
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The OP brought up something that he feels should be shamed and commentators here brought reasons why the concept isn't totally wrong. This is what I enjoy about the MMM community.
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During the day our library tends to have screaming toddlers... (It's quieter in the evening, though the rooms are almost always booked full.)
Plus there is only one printer, and no other business services.
I wouldn't want to try to get much work done there.
Wait a second, so you're telling me that you have found both poor people and children at the library? Oh. My. God. The place may as well be a leper colony!
I love my library. We go many times a week. I participated in their "read to the bump" program, and can't wait to be able to do the kids programs.
But it wouldn't be a place I try to conduct business. Way too loud. And very few resources for that. An hourly desk rental makes more sense, or even your hotel room.
The library does have an excellent cake pan collection though. Those are fun to check out for a homemade Birthday or holiday cake.
I don't recall saying anything about poor people. Did you take "job seekers" to mean poor people? I mostly see students using those consoles. I'm sure the library has poor people in it. Probably rich people too. I don't understand the point you were making here.
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The OP brought up something that he feels should be shamed and commentators here brought reasons why the concept isn't totally wrong. This is what I enjoy about the MMM community.
This is one of the reason though that the wall of shame is my least favorite sub-forum. Can't people just all live their lives without shaming others? I allow that some people can have their vices and I don't begrudge anyone for living the way they think is best so long as they are not hurting others.
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The defensive posts might be from the shock of realizing how one looks when implying other people are foolish without fully understanding the possible reasons.
Nah, I'm just having fun mocking really wasteful people who don't even realize that they are wasteful. Keep paying for things needlessly, though, please. It's good for my dividends.
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A lot of us aren't into frugality, WTC (nor wastefulness). We're into optimizing. So we do gross stuff like own a computer when doing so results in more $ or time or freedom than not having one does, or in some cases use a vehicle vs walk. Diversity is a-okay, even in the land of those who optimize, MMM-style.
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The defensive posts might be from the shock of realizing how one looks when implying other people are foolish without fully understanding the possible reasons.
Nah, I'm just having fun mocking
As they say, ignorance is bliss
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The defensive posts might be from the shock of realizing how one looks when implying other people are foolish without fully understanding the possible reasons.
Nah, I'm just having fun mocking really wasteful people who don't even realize that they are wasteful. Keep paying for things needlessly, though, please. It's good for my dividends.
I assume you're posting from the library now, and always do.
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The defensive posts might be from the shock of realizing how one looks when implying other people are foolish without fully understanding the possible reasons.
Nah, I'm just having fun mocking really wasteful people who don't even realize that they are wasteful. Keep paying for things needlessly, though, please. It's good for my dividends.
I assume you're posting from the library now, and always do.
He might not answer right away, you know how it is when meeting a VIP client in between the deranged homeless man and a screaming toddler, things can get a bit crazy. Or maybe his laptop was stolen when he had to go to the bathroom... Actually scratch that, having a laptop would be an excess indulgence when you can get 60 min of free computer time at the library.
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Several thoughts:
- Our libraries here have small rooms you can book ahead for your own purposes: study group, book club, whatever.
- If you're traveling and staying in a hotel, they often have a business center (with printers, faxes, etc.) that could serve this purpose without any additional cost. I've used these a few times and never see anyone else in there.
- If you plan your work time mid-morning or mid-afternoon, you might be able to work at a Panera (or coffee shop); they often have a "back room" where few people go.
I can't see paying for a desk space.
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Several thoughts:
- Our libraries here have small rooms you can book ahead for your own purposes: study group, book club, whatever.
- If you're traveling and staying in a hotel, they often have a business center (with printers, faxes, etc.) that could serve this purpose without any additional cost. I've used these a few times and never see anyone else in there.
- If you plan your work time mid-morning or mid-afternoon, you might be able to work at a Panera (or coffee shop); they often have a "back room" where few people go.
I can't see paying for a desk space.
Very good points. Thanks. I'm really kind of mystified by some of the comments on here.
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Several thoughts:
- Our libraries here have small rooms you can book ahead for your own purposes: study group, book club, whatever.
- If you're traveling and staying in a hotel, they often have a business center (with printers, faxes, etc.) that could serve this purpose without any additional cost. I've used these a few times and never see anyone else in there.
- If you plan your work time mid-morning or mid-afternoon, you might be able to work at a Panera (or coffee shop); they often have a "back room" where few people go.
I can 100% see using these resources where they exist in a person's region :)
We don't have those (and I don't stay in hotels) but I would happily use them if we did!
Most of the folks in our coworking space actually had the fees covered by their employer, so paid nothing out of pocket.
I'm self-employed, so that wasn't an option...So I got a grant to use the nice quiet college for a strong net profit!
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It seems like the two sides are talking past each other here.
I think most everyone who sees value in rent-a-desk understands that using it day in day out at home is not good; it could/would have value as a professional meeting place with a client or the odd time when other things were not locally available.
I personally have been on work travel 1000 miles from home for a week where I did not have to be on site one day during the week and needed to work on other clients projects that day. Here spending 20$ of my employers money makes a lot of sense. Yes hotel business centers and libraries might be an option; in my experience business centers are 9 out of 10 times a pathetic little closet with crap chairs and poor light. A local library might work but I would have to check it they had closed rooms and it still would be a crap shoot if there would be homeless or toddlers milling about. Both may or may not have good internet that allowed VPN.
I am somewhat lucky that my employer is not penny wise/pound foolish; they get that when traveling things come up and it is very often worth spending money to keep me productive. I have handed the accountant 1000$ phone bills, returned rental cars without gas, failed to get a hotel voucher from an airline then paid for a hotel room, and (gasp) eaten at restaurants while traveling for work. Work travel can suck and good employers understand that 20$ can be easily recouped in added productivity. That is not to say one should waste money but rather that you need to keep the big picture in mind.
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Interesting discussion. My husband and I both work from home, which can get a little cramped. My husband's work involves a lot of talking out loud via the internet with co-workers, while mine involves quiet solitary work. So we are always exploring options for one of us to go off and work from a different space.
Libraries have worked out well.
Observations:
- "Library" is a large category. Different libraries, even within the same public system, may have very different vibes. Some may be filled with kids having story time, others may have spaces that are more quiet and scholarly, or with carrels for office-like laptop work. Explore the more remote branches if your central city library is too hectic. Walk all around the library so you are aware of its nooks and crannies and can identify the more secluded areas.
- If you have a nearby college or university, look into any programs they may have for community library access. They sometimes demarcate specific areas where chit-chat is allowed or where everyone must maintain silence.
- A handful of communities in the U.S. also have private membership/"subscription" libraries. These are really cool places with high quaintness value and would be nice settings for work. (Here's a list. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GScHckiW8JIVoTG70n9ETj35ts4CgcegJ0ayKOK8T38/edit#gid=0))
- Invest in a pair of noise-cancelling headphones. They can be pricey but turn any space into a quiet space.
- I can see why meeting with clients might require a different kind of space. You might want to give clients a sense of solidity, that you have an "office," and you might want a professional atmosphere that you can control somewhat for meetings. But if your work just involves you and a laptop, libraries can be super-great.
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It seems like the two sides are talking past each other here.
Yup! I have never rented desk space, but I can see the virtues in having it. Hotel wifi can be terrible and not secure, as can be business centers. Most business centers I've been to are a few computers on a table with no privacy or space.
Panera/Starbucks are not quite places to work if you need quietness. Some people are able to function and concentrate there but I am not one of those people, I have difficult reading a pleasurable book with the sound of them grinding coffee beans.
For the library, I love the library near my house for reading as it is actually quiet. But I'm not able to make phone calls from it for obvious reasons and since most of my job consists of sales, being on the phone is a necessity.
Seriously, you can mock the idea that people would rent desk space by the hour but there are ton of reasons why it makes sense. Sure it is going to be waste of money if you are doing so on a more or less permanent basis, but when you are on the road you can get a lot more done there than elsewhere.
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My wife just started a new job and some of her co-workers told her about this amazing company called ShareDesk (https://www.sharedesk.net/ (https://www.sharedesk.net/)) where you can rent desk space for an hour or two at a time while you are on the road to complete work. It's like AirBnB for temporary work spaces. My wife stared at them dumbfounded and then asked them why they don't just go to the local public library wherever they are traveling and use their space for free instead. It had literally never occurred to these people. :-P
Since your wife is new at her job, maybe she should learn a few things and be open minded. I understand this is MMM, and we are all about saving every penny possible, but just because it is free does not means it is something you should use.
Here is a few example:
Local public library may not have reliable high speed broadband. I would say for most job that is using internet, speed and reliable broadband is a must - especially when you need to do face to face meeting with your client or do a screen share with 20 other people. Wifi at local library may not have enough capacity and speed. Also local library may not like someone on the phone or conducting meeting for a business since you might be disturbing other patrons.
And I am sure there are other considerations why you may not want to use local library instead of paying for temp office (read other posts ^).
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The first rule of remote calls is to pick a place where you control the environment. No people walking behind you or barging in. No spotty connection. You want to feel at ease.
Neither libraries nor shared office space fit that requirement.
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The first rule of remote calls is to pick a place where you control the environment. No people walking behind you or barging in. No spotty connection. You want to feel at ease.
Neither libraries nor shared office space fit that requirement.
The cowork spaces I've used all have a closed room for this.
My understanding from some of the above posters is that some of their libraries do, also.
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DW and I "rent" at one of these types of places. We do not use the desk space, but you can receive mail there at a physical address. Some of the stuff we need to register for our business requires a physical address and not a PO box. Since the business doesn't have an "office", we use that as the address.
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The first rule of remote calls is to pick a place where you control the environment. No people walking behind you or barging in. No spotty connection. You want to feel at ease.
Neither libraries nor shared office space fit that requirement.
Just so (https://www.theguardian.com/media/video/2017/mar/10/bbc-correspondent-interrupted-by-his-children-live-on-air-video)... :D
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DW and I "rent" at one of these types of places. We do not use the desk space, but you can receive mail there at a physical address. Some of the stuff we need to register for our business requires a physical address and not a PO box. Since the business doesn't have an "office", we use that as the address.
I'd see this as useful for a home based business or charity where you don't feel good about giving out your home address as the address of record, and have a few key meetings per year but mostly outsource work.
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Or just set up a tray table in the alley behind a strip club? Sit on an overturned plastic bucket, and go right to work.
Know why you don't see so many derelicts passed out in alleys anymore? Because they are down at the library, alternately snoozing and leering at the kiddies over in the kiddy section.
Downtown, anyway. It's a bit more normal in the remaining municipal libraries in the 'burbs.
Free office space! Wow.
Um, do you live on skid row or something? I'm trying to figure out where what you are describing could possibly resemble the experience the average person has in a library.
I live in Vancouver , BC. I use the Central branch (downtown) all the time, and WhiteTrashCan's description fits it perfectly. It has become worse over the last couple of years - normally I smell homeless person stink within seconds of walking in the main lobby. Men mainly, with backpacks. Sometimes they read, but about half of them are asleep. It's the worst on the main floor. On a typical day I'd guess there's between 6 and 10 homeless guys on the main floor. By the way, this is not a sketchy location, it is the jewel in the crown of all the branches, very expensive fancy architecture, many upgrades with recording studios and dedicated computers for arts.
In addition to the street homeless, there is a notable presence of equally stinky, but obviously homed single males in their 50s to 70s, who have apparently given up on bathing and washing clothes, and the not-stinky but nevertheless repellent guys who have no internet and use the public library computers to watch porn.