Relatives who just don't get it

[Dave1442397]

I am highly familiar with elderly relatives who are hell bent on spending all their money (and then some) to ensure that they do not have a comfortable or stress-free last few years.

Some, like my mother-in-law, have never had a budget their entire life, and the concept of running out of money just doesn't compute. Her spending has been curtailed since May, when she broke her hip, but she spent more than $150,000 at the casino in the previous six years.

My wife would sit her down sometimes and show her the bank statement that says "On average, you spend $1200 a month more than you earn", and ask her what she was going to do when her savings ran out. She said "Oh, Dave (me) will give me money", which had my wife cracking up.

[Just Joe]

$150K! Wow! <cringe>

[Metalcat]

I am highly familiar with elderly relatives who are hell bent on spending all their money (and then some) to ensure that they do not have a comfortable or stress-free last few years.

Some, like my mother-in-law, have never had a budget their entire life, and the concept of running out of money just doesn't compute. Her spending has been curtailed since May, when she broke her hip, but she spent more than $150,000 at the casino in the previous six years.

My wife would sit her down sometimes and show her the bank statement that says "On average, you spend $1200 a month more than you earn", and ask her what she was going to do when her savings ran out. She said "Oh, Dave (me) will give me money", which had my wife cracking up.

What the actual fuck??

[Morning Glory]

I am highly familiar with elderly relatives who are hell bent on spending all their money (and then some) to ensure that they do not have a comfortable or stress-free last few years.

Some, like my mother-in-law, have never had a budget their entire life, and the concept of running out of money just doesn't compute. Her spending has been curtailed since May, when she broke her hip, but she spent more than $150,000 at the casino in the previous six years.

My wife would sit her down sometimes and show her the bank statement that says "On average, you spend $1200 a month more than you earn", and ask her what she was going to do when her savings ran out. She said "Oh, Dave (me) will give me money", which had my wife cracking up.

What the actual fuck??

My grandmother had a learning disability that caused her to drop out of school in 9th grade because she couldn't do math. She went bankrupt by ordering gazingus pins from qvc within a few years after grandpa died. Thankfully she owned her house outright and her necessary expenses were small so she was still able to live comfortably for many more years after her kids took over the finances. She never got around to opening all the boxes.

[MayDay]

Another holiday visit to the in laws filled with ridiculous excess is in the books.

Lots of passive aggressive comments from one relative in particular about how they can't visit us (they have literally never visited us except for once when we provided childcare for them while they went to a nearby funeral) because their budget is so tight.

Then we go to their house and see the new SUV and the absolutely shocking amount of stuff they buy their kid and yah.... You don't have a money coming in problem. You have a spending problem.

[Roadrunner53]

When a relative died a few years ago the apartment was full of unopened boxes from QVC and maybe other places. It would have been nice if the boxes could have been opened and contents given away. Unfortunately, the apartment was in an old, old building in a major city and was infested with bed bugs! One of the relatives did go in and remove paperwork and some jewelry and a few things that bed bugs couldn't penetrate. Professional disposal guys with zipup suits had to dispose the contenets of the apartment into a garbage truck. The deceased person either wasn't bothered by the bugs when alive or after being hospitalized for a period of time they took over. Seems those old building are infested. You spray one apartment and they skitter over to another.

[Roadrunner53]

This isn't a 'relative' story but a commercial I saw on tv. So, it starts off talking about being in debt and how this company will help you get out of debt. No idea how they help the person but people in the commercial were so pleased! This one guy was so happy his debt was paid off he said he could now afford to take a trip to Puerto Rico! I am like WHAT? You just got yourself out of debt and whammo, let's go to Puerto Rico and spend thousands of dollars to get back in debt! What is wrong with people! I know this was just a commercial, but people actually think like this!

[Roadrunner53]

Ever know people who are 'hobby' people? I have relatives who like to collect things on a regular basis  from companies that sell collectibles  where you collect, as an example, 12 items to complete the collection over a 12 month period of time. There are many types of hobbies that you have to keep adding to the collection. To me it is just a waste of money and who has room for all that junk? The other problem is that now you have these collectibles such a little figurines. Then you have to have a cabinet to keep them in. Then the cabinet gets full and you have to buy another cabinet. UGH! These relatives who collect 'stuff' barely have enough money to put food on the table but they have to have this junk!

[Morning Glory]

This isn't a 'relative' story but a commercial I saw on tv. So, it starts off talking about being in debt and how this company will help you get out of debt. No idea how they help the person but people in the commercial were so pleased! This one guy was so happy his debt was paid off he said he could now afford to take a trip to Puerto Rico! I am like WHAT? You just got yourself out of debt and whammo, let's go to Puerto Rico and spend thousands of dollars to get back in debt! What is wrong with people! I know this was just a commercial, but people actually think like this!

One of the couples on the mmm Netflix documentary did that. I think to celebrate that all the debt with interest over 10% was paid off, iirc. This was when interest rates were still stupid low.

[Just Joe]

Ever know people who are 'hobby' people? I have relatives who like to collect things on a regular basis  from companies that sell collectibles  where you collect, as an example, 12 items to complete the collection over a 12 month period of time. There are many types of hobbies that you have to keep adding to the collection. To me it is just a waste of money and who has room for all that junk? The other problem is that now you have these collectibles such a little figurines. Then you have to have a cabinet to keep them in. Then the cabinet gets full and you have to buy another cabinet. UGH! These relatives who collect 'stuff' barely have enough money to put food on the table but they have to have this junk!

Not hobby people - collectible people. NASCAR, stuff that sits on shelves, stuff that gets put in spare rooms and ignored while more stuff is ordered to keep it company. ;)

Hobby people are doing things with their stuff. Carpentry, antique cars, camping, bicycling. Still - controlled spending is a must. Don't add lipstick to a porcine farm animal. Controlled spending is a must.

[Metalcat]

I am highly familiar with elderly relatives who are hell bent on spending all their money (and then some) to ensure that they do not have a comfortable or stress-free last few years.

Some, like my mother-in-law, have never had a budget their entire life, and the concept of running out of money just doesn't compute. Her spending has been curtailed since May, when she broke her hip, but she spent more than $150,000 at the casino in the previous six years.

My wife would sit her down sometimes and show her the bank statement that says "On average, you spend $1200 a month more than you earn", and ask her what she was going to do when her savings ran out. She said "Oh, Dave (me) will give me money", which had my wife cracking up.

What the actual fuck??

My grandmother had a learning disability that caused her to drop out of school in 9th grade because she couldn't do math. She went bankrupt by ordering gazingus pins from qvc within a few years after grandpa died. Thankfully she owned her house outright and her necessary expenses were small so she was still able to live comfortably for many more years after her kids took over the finances. She never got around to opening all the boxes.

Lol, yeah, I have a mom like that, but what I was reacting to was the "Dave will give me money."

Who just assumes their son-in-law will give them $1200/mo to feed her raging gambling addiction??

How does an adult human come to that conclusion???

[Metalcat]

This isn't a 'relative' story but a commercial I saw on tv. So, it starts off talking about being in debt and how this company will help you get out of debt. No idea how they help the person but people in the commercial were so pleased! This one guy was so happy his debt was paid off he said he could now afford to take a trip to Puerto Rico! I am like WHAT? You just got yourself out of debt and whammo, let's go to Puerto Rico and spend thousands of dollars to get back in debt! What is wrong with people! I know this was just a commercial, but people actually think like this!

Yes, people absolutely think like that. We know a couple who both make 6 figures. They came over for one evening and were talking about how "flush" they were and how they were thinking of taking the kids to Disney. They were "flush" because they had been struggling with 6 figures of high interest credit card debt and had just refinanced their house and were now "debt free except for their mortgage" and wanted to reward themselves for "paying off so much debt."

[Dave1442397]

I am highly familiar with elderly relatives who are hell bent on spending all their money (and then some) to ensure that they do not have a comfortable or stress-free last few years.

Some, like my mother-in-law, have never had a budget their entire life, and the concept of running out of money just doesn't compute. Her spending has been curtailed since May, when she broke her hip, but she spent more than $150,000 at the casino in the previous six years.

My wife would sit her down sometimes and show her the bank statement that says "On average, you spend $1200 a month more than you earn", and ask her what she was going to do when her savings ran out. She said "Oh, Dave (me) will give me money", which had my wife cracking up.

What the actual fuck??

My grandmother had a learning disability that caused her to drop out of school in 9th grade because she couldn't do math. She went bankrupt by ordering gazingus pins from qvc within a few years after grandpa died. Thankfully she owned her house outright and her necessary expenses were small so she was still able to live comfortably for many more years after her kids took over the finances. She never got around to opening all the boxes.

Lol, yeah, I have a mom like that, but what I was reacting to was the "Dave will give me money."

Who just assumes their son-in-law will give them $1200/mo to feed her raging gambling addiction??

How does an adult human come to that conclusion???

She's a dingbat, that's how :)

She grew up in a wealthy family, so basically got whatever she wanted there. My father-in-law made good money as a board certified ER surgeon, and my wife said she spent a lot of money as her 'reward' for being a stay at home mom.

She has absolutely no concept of budgeting. She gave us access to her accounts when my father-in-law died, and we found out he was pretty much following the 'die broke' methodology. After selling a rental property, she had around $160k in the bank plus a monthly SS payment of $3300, and $80k in (crappy) investments.

After seven years, she's down to <$10k in the bank, and around $60k in investments. Monthly expenses (maintenance fee, taxes, medical insurance, cable TV) run at around $1500, so she has $1800 of her Social Security check left over.  That and more was going straight to the casino until she broke her hip and moved in with us while she recovers. At 94, she should have enough to make it to the end, especially since the casino spending has ended.

The "Dave will give me money" comment had my wife and me cracking up. My wife said "Do you realize that Dave and I give ourselves $100 a week to spend as we like? Meanwhile, you're taking out $200 a day to spend at the casino. In what world do you think we're giving you that kind of money?" Pretty much a ha-ha response from MIL.

[Roadrunner53]

My next door neighbor told me about his wife's stepmom. She lived with her longtime boyfriend in a apartment and was in debt from being basically a hoarder. She owed over $100,000 in credit card bills but kept buying and buying stuff from places like QVC. The whole place was full almost to the ceiling and there was only one narrow path to walk from room to room. What on earth do you do with all that crap? You can't display it or hang it on a wall obviously if there is so much of it. You just pile it up and up until it hits the ceiling? I heard she died a couple of years ago and the boyfriend too. Whoever had to clean that place out must have lost their minds! I am also guessing her credit cards never got paid off so the CC companies got screwed too!

[Metalcat]

She's a dingbat, that's how :)

She grew up in a wealthy family, so basically got whatever she wanted there. My father-in-law made good money as a board certified ER surgeon, and my wife said she spent a lot of money as her 'reward' for being a stay at home mom.

She has absolutely no concept of budgeting. She gave us access to her accounts when my father-in-law died, and we found out he was pretty much following the 'die broke' methodology. After selling a rental property, she had around $160k in the bank plus a monthly SS payment of $3300, and $80k in (crappy) investments.

After seven years, she's down to <$10k in the bank, and around $60k in investments. Monthly expenses (maintenance fee, taxes, medical insurance, cable TV) run at around $1500, so she has $1800 of her Social Security check left over.  That and more was going straight to the casino until she broke her hip and moved in with us while she recovers. At 94, she should have enough to make it to the end, especially since the casino spending has ended.

The "Dave will give me money" comment had my wife and me cracking up. My wife said "Do you realize that Dave and I give ourselves $100 a week to spend as we like? Meanwhile, you're taking out $200 a day to spend at the casino. In what world do you think we're giving you that kind of money?" Pretty much a ha-ha response from MIL.

That is just so disturbing.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

She's a dingbat, that's how :)

She grew up in a wealthy family, so basically got whatever she wanted there. My father-in-law made good money as a board certified ER surgeon, and my wife said she spent a lot of money as her 'reward' for being a stay at home mom.

She has absolutely no concept of budgeting. She gave us access to her accounts when my father-in-law died, and we found out he was pretty much following the 'die broke' methodology. After selling a rental property, she had around $160k in the bank plus a monthly SS payment of $3300, and $80k in (crappy) investments.

After seven years, she's down to <$10k in the bank, and around $60k in investments. Monthly expenses (maintenance fee, taxes, medical insurance, cable TV) run at around $1500, so she has $1800 of her Social Security check left over.  That and more was going straight to the casino until she broke her hip and moved in with us while she recovers. At 94, she should have enough to make it to the end, especially since the casino spending has ended.

The "Dave will give me money" comment had my wife and me cracking up. My wife said "Do you realize that Dave and I give ourselves $100 a week to spend as we like? Meanwhile, you're taking out $200 a day to spend at the casino. In what world do you think we're giving you that kind of money?" Pretty much a ha-ha response from MIL.

That is just so disturbing.

It's the debt-slave mentality, though. They really, truly, honestly believe that it's morally OK, and practically necessary, to spend every available cent and then some. Then when all that money has to be repaid, they truly believe they're the victim and that something bad is being done to them. It's why so many entitlement class parents who are tech-savvy enough to set up all kinds of electronic subscriptions for themselves refuse to set up education funds for their children or retirement investments for themselves.

[Adventine]

That kind of person is counting on being able to emotionally blackmail the fiscally responsible family members when the time comes.

[Dave1442397]

That kind of person is counting on being able to emotionally blackmail the fiscally responsible family members when the time comes.

That doesn't work on me :)  She was mad when we limited her daily ATM withdrawal to $200, but we weren't backing down.

[AlanStache]

That kind of person is counting on being able to emotionally blackmail the fiscally responsible family members when the time comes.

The kind of person for whom that has "worked" for their entire life. 

[Zamboni]

. . . . entitlement class parents who are tech-savvy enough to set up all kinds of electronic subscriptions for themselves refuse to set up education funds for their children or retirement investments for themselves.

This sums up the essence of my step mom perfectly, and she comes with a healthy dose of con artist mentality thrown in for seasoning. Plus, she wants a pat on the head for finding and canceling a few of the idiotic subscriptions and gazingus-pin-of-the-month clubs that she signed up for.

[Metalcat]

. . . . entitlement class parents who are tech-savvy enough to set up all kinds of electronic subscriptions for themselves refuse to set up education funds for their children or retirement investments for themselves.

This sums up the essence of my step mom perfectly, and she comes with a healthy dose of con artist mentality thrown in for seasoning. Plus, she wants a pat on the head for finding and canceling a few of the idiotic subscriptions and gazingus-pin-of-the-month clubs that she signed up for.

Yeah your thread about her is horrifying. It didn't surprise me when forum members started worrying that she might try to actually kill your father.

[DutchGirl]

It's the early 2000s. Boy meets girl. Boy and girl fall in love. Boy and girl marry. Aaaaawwww. Girl has high school diploma, boy has university diploma in IT. They want to have kids. Aaaaawwww. Girl (okay, woman by now) will quit working as a shop assistant because she wants to be a stay-at-home mom, and the father-to-be will probably make the big bucks anyway, right?

They first have a boy, and then a girl. By 2012, they move to a bigger house because their growing family deserves the space, right? The man starts to make more money because he is good at his job. The woman continues to stay home with the kids, even when they're in school for most of the day. The family goes on three holidays per year: one long summer holiday by plane to a hot country to explore (a bit), one autumn holiday by plane to an all-inclusive-resort in a hot country somewhere to just bake and rest, and one winter holiday by plane to an all-inclusive-resort to rest and get some sun. During the summer, the kids are also sent to expensive but fun camps, and they get to stay a week or two with grandma and grandpa, who love them very much.

Meeting them during family celebrations, they talk about their trips, and they discuss possibly investing in a holiday house to rent out and maybe to spend some time in, too. This plan never comes to fruition. They also talk about how well they did buying the bigger house, because it has already increased in value quite nicely. Every five years or so, the husband shows off a nice new car. Additionally, the wife has a cute small car to bring the kids to their sports and hobbies and to get the groceries.

Their boy is in the last year of his studies (while living at home), their girl will start uni after the summer. They decide to support her by buying her a house in the city that she'll live in. Talking to us, they explain that it is hard to find student housing, and particularly student housing of any quality. The girl could temporarily travel to uni until she finds a room, it would probably take 1.5 hours one way, but that's too much, they decide. Besides, she will live there for four to six years and then the parents will sell the house again and probably see a nice profit. The house is bought, and the girl starts her studies.

Then, the big collapse: the couple has been fighting for a while, but now they have one big nasty fight and the husband wants to divorce. Their assets will need to be equally split in two.

The family house is estimated to be worth about 700k, down from 800k the year before because the housing market is cooling down. The house hasn't been sold yet, so maybe it will sell for more... hopefully. Turns out they got a interest-only mortgage, meaning that the 400k loan they took out 10 years ago is still a 400k loan. The house that they just bought for their daughter will probably need to be sold as well. They took out a mortgage for 80% of the value and they took out a personal loan for the other 20% (at 7% interest). They will probably lose 50k on that with all the costs and taxes involved in first buying, getting a mortgage, paying taxes, and then now selling it again (in a cooling market).
The husband apparently didn't put money aside for retirement, although he does have life insurance and disability insurance.

And that's it. They're in their fifties, and each of them will walk away with maybe 200k of assets. The woman is going to be a nurse's aid, part time. The man will hopefully continue to make his big salary for a few more years. Due to local laws, he will need to support his daughter financially until she finishes her studies or until she's 23, whatever happens first. Also, he will need to support his ex-wife financially for five more years.

The ex-wife, meanwhile, plans to buy a new house as soon as she can. After all, renting is throwing away money.

[Dicey]

I can't watch and I can't look away. Ugh.

[Zamboni]

It makes me really sad to read that someone gets to their 50's and hasn't saved for their retirement at all. It's all too common.

That said, $200K each is a lot better than a poke in the eye.

It's not five million dollars, though, so let's not get carried away, and besides would $5MM even be enough?
Greg: “I’m good, anyway,” because Uncle Ewan will “leave me five million anyway, so, I’m golden, baby.”
Connor: “You can’t do anything with five, Greg. Five’s a nightmare. Can’t retire, not worth it to work. Oh yes, five will drive you un poco loco.”
Tom: “Poorest rich person in America. The world’s tallest dwarf.”

Unfortunately the girl and the boy in the story may actually think the ~$200K is a lot of money . . . and of course it is! In a way. But at the same time, in your 50's of course it is not enough to last very long, especially since when they divorce girl doesn't really have another good income stream and even when she reaches retirement age I think the girl is only eligible to draw on half of his social security level.

The boy may hem and haw about "having to shell out all of this money" to his ex but let's be honest: unless he loses his job, he is probably financially fine if he stops being stupid about retirement savings.

The girl, on the other hand, is in a rough situation financially and needs to get serious about becoming fully employed and putting a big percentage of that money away. Nurses aids are in high demand, but CNA's aren't exactly making bank. If she can be patient and rent for a year or three, then the housing market will likely have corrected (depending on where she lives) and she may well be able to get a great deal on a house. Buying now, though? I wouldn't . . . but that gets us back to the title of this thread.

Lol, all of this is probably why my divorce atty tried to hire me as a financial consultant for his female clients (and I am entirely unqualified to be a financial advisor, but apparently he was in awe of my spreadsheets). Long story short: atty thought I'd go for it bc he would pay me equal to my little part time Mom job, which he assured me I could keep in additional to "helping his other clients." But, I knew divorcing meant I'd need to be moving on from my little part time fun gig, and that meant he couldn't afford me.

In any case, I hope boy and girl both figure things out. Divorce sucks all around in the moment, even when the people end up much happier or better off financially in the long run.

[Roadrunner53]

Girl needs to buckle down and work full time! She needs a job some place where they offer a 401K savings plan and dump as much as she can into it. A friend of mine worked at Walmart, didn't make a lot of money but managed to put in the amount to get the company match. Girl definitely needs to talk to someone who can advise her on how to manage the $200K she will get, the money her husband will give her for support for 5 years and needs a kick in the butt and work full time if not one full time job and a part time job on top of that. She has no reason not to. Her kids are grown. She has very little time to save some money and even if she puts her nose to the grindstone, her savings will not be astronomical. No more fancy vacations either. Girl really needs to hold onto every penny she can! Her only salvation is she can get social security later on based on her husbands earnings. Even if she works 15+ years she probably won't get as much SS as she would to claim spousal SS.

[Zamboni]

Just met family members at Panera at their request. Sure, I'll go, I like Panera okay. Haven't been there in ages, so special treat time for me.

While we're waiting in line the family member chimes "we like to come here a lot because it is such a good deal."
"Oh," I say "I always thought Panera is kind of expensive for a quick meal type place."
Family member then assures me that no, it's not expensive, it's a really good deal for them because they both belong to the "bottomless sip club", so they get all their drinks "for free." That's why they eat lunch there at least once a week, she explains. Also, they really like Panera's soup, she says.

I didn't argue with her or even ask follow up questions because it's pointless.

In case you are wondering, I looked it up afterwards and it's $11.99 a month per person for the bottomless sip club, and of course your membership renews perpetually until you turn it off.
So $24 a month. For "free" drinks when they go to lunch at Panera to buy their expensive but undeniably yummy soup.
No doubt their membership in the sip club is the type of thing they consider an "investment."

And they wonder why they can't even balance their budget on paper.
And they wonder why I decline to give them money when they can't pay their bills, which unfortunately has been an issue many times.

[Roadrunner53]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

[ixtap]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Looks like most of the eligible drinks are bottomless with or without the club, the membership just means you don't get charged each visit. The eligible drinks seem to average out to about $3, so at once a week they are coming out ahead by $0.01 a month ..

[Zamboni]

Yeah, that's the math of it.

I think the bigger problem is broke people using the sip club to justify going out to eat regularly.

[ixtap]

My niece's current life plan is to work just enough to support herself while staying under the income limit to repay her loans, then work more when they are forgiven. When she will be in her 50s.

To be fair, her parents are in their late 50s and just starting to think about saving for retirement, and based on their own comments, not doing a very good job of it.

[Metalcat]

Yeah, that's the math of it.

I think the bigger problem is broke people using the sip club to justify going out to eat regularly.

Man...Panera knows their target market...I would think a program like that would make patrons feel like their intelligence is being insulted, but I guess Panera regulars really want to be pushed to go more often.

[BlueHouse]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Quite a lot, it seems.  See "Vomit Fee".  I recently went to a brunch in DC where 2 people vomited.  One at the table behind ours, and another on the way out, he was just standing at the curb.  I'm not a big brunch lover, but that killed any good vibes for me!  And it was a pretty high-end restaurant (with a good value brunch)

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/restaurants-impose-vomit-fee-on-brunch-goers-to-stem-bottomless-mimosa-problems/

[iris lily]

It makes me really sad to read that someone gets to their 50's and hasn't saved for their retirement at all. It's all too common.

That said, $200K each is a lot better than a poke in the eye.

It's not five million dollars, though, so let's not get carried away, and besides would $5MM even be enough?
Greg: “I’m good, anyway,” because Uncle Ewan will “leave me five million anyway, so, I’m golden, baby.”
Connor: “You can’t do anything with five, Greg. Five’s a nightmare. Can’t retire, not worth it to work. Oh yes, five will drive you un poco loco.”
Tom: “Poorest rich person in America. The world’s tallest dwarf.”

Unfortunately the girl and the boy in the story may actually think the ~$200K is a lot of money . . . and of course it is! In a way. But at the same time, in your 50's of course it is not enough to last very long, especially since when they divorce girl doesn't really have another good income stream and even when she reaches retirement age I think the girl is only eligible to draw on half of his social security level.

The boy may hem and haw about "having to shell out all of this money" to his ex but let's be honest: unless he loses his job, he is probably financially fine if he stops being stupid about retirement savings.

The girl, on the other hand, is in a rough situation financially and needs to get serious about becoming fully employed and putting a big percentage of that money away. Nurses aids are in high demand, but CNA's aren't exactly making bank. If she can be patient and rent for a year or three, then the housing market will likely have corrected (depending on where she lives) and she may well be able to get a great deal on a house. Buying now, though? I wouldn't . . . but that gets us back to the title of this thread.

Lol, all of this is probably why my divorce atty tried to hire me as a financial consultant for his female clients (and I am entirely unqualified to be a financial advisor, but apparently he was in awe of my spreadsheets). Long story short: atty thought I'd go for it bc he would pay me equal to my little part time Mom job, which he assured me I could keep in additional to "helping his other clients." But, I knew divorcing meant I'd need to be moving on from my little part time fun gig, and that meant he couldn't afford me.

In any case, I hope boy and girl both figure things out. Divorce sucks all around in the moment, even when the people end up much happier or better off financially in the long run.

I compliment and applaud any reference to Succession.

And Panera soup is crappy, full of salt. Blech.

[Metalcat]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Quite a lot, it seems.  See "Vomit Fee".  I recently went to a brunch in DC where 2 people vomited.  One at the table behind ours, and another on the way out, he was just standing at the curb.  I'm not a big brunch lover, but that killed any good vibes for me!  And it was a pretty high-end restaurant (with a good value brunch)

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/restaurants-impose-vomit-fee-on-brunch-goers-to-stem-bottomless-mimosa-problems/

Wait, is the panera "sip club" for alcoholic drinks or regular drinks?

At $3/bev I assumed they were not alcoholic drinks.

[Villanelle]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Quite a lot, it seems.  See "Vomit Fee".  I recently went to a brunch in DC where 2 people vomited.  One at the table behind ours, and another on the way out, he was just standing at the curb.  I'm not a big brunch lover, but that killed any good vibes for me!  And it was a pretty high-end restaurant (with a good value brunch)

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/restaurants-impose-vomit-fee-on-brunch-goers-to-stem-bottomless-mimosa-problems/

Wait, is the panera "sip club" for alcoholic drinks or regular drinks?

At $3/bev I assumed they were not alcoholic drinks.

Panera (at least the ones I've been too) doesn't sell alcohol.  The brunch mentioned was, I think, a separate conversation from Panera.

I love panera.  I love their broccoli cheddar soup and their bacon turkey bravo sandwich.  It's a special treat in which I occasionally indulge.  Also, due to a very special day we spent together that happened to wind up at Panera for dinner, it's become a special place for my mom and me.  We don't see each other all that often, but we we do, we sometimes end up at Panera because it brings back great memories and we both like having "our place", even it is is a fairly unremarkable fast-casual place.  But I can't imagine gong there weekly.  Also, even if these people go 1/week, their "free" drinks are still costing them about $3.  I just checked and a fountain drink is $3.79.  So they are barely saving anything, and that's before the math on committing to eat out at one specific place, once a week (and not just drink water!). 

[Zamboni]

No booze at my local Panera either. I'm not sure if any of the Panera locations sell booze, but the sip club is lemonade, coffee, tea, and soda. Basically the drinks that cost Panera less to fill the cup than the cost of the cup itself.

Lol, looking again I now see that there is also an option to pay yearly for the sip club at $120. Wow, an EVEN BETTER deal! Because of the amount it reminds me of the $120 a year I pay for a permanent locker at my gym so I can leave my swimming and showering stuff there . . . I should go to the gym more. But at least I don't spend more money every time I go to the gym; the gym is not a spend-to-save proposition for me.

If someone has plenty of extra walking around money, doesn't have financial problems, and wants to join the sip club because they go there daily for coffee and they are going to anyway, then it makes sense to me. There's probably a few people who go to Panera every single day to use the internet. Sure, $12 a month is cheaper than paying for home internet, and Panera has much longer hours than the local library. I can see situations where it makes sense.

For example, there is a little group of elderly retired men who meet up at my local McDonald's on weekday mornings. They all get coffee and share reading the "complimentary" newspaper and chit chat. Sure, it would be cheaper to go to each other's houses, but some people don't like visitors in their house. And, it could be that these men all have wives or family who enjoy having them out of the house, or maybe they just like to have routine, so it gives them a reason to head out and see their friends with a routine. They are paying for the social time in addition to the coffee. When my kids were tots sometimes I'd take them to my local McDonald's at 6-7 am so they could run around and climb in the indoor play area. I was a sleep deprived Zombie and I'd sit there in a stupor with my refillable small drink while the tots had a blast and wore themselves out. Usually I'd buy a McGriddle sandwich, eat the insides, and give each kid one of the McGriddles. After all, it is customary to make a small purchase when using a business's facilities. We probably did that about once a month in winter. The retired group was always there sitting in the same spot away from the play area, and I made sure my kids didn't bother them. Everybody happy.

As long as someone has the money, then I don't see a problem with it at all. But if you are beyond broke and literally panicking because you can't pay to keep your house heated in winter, then justifying $24 a month recurring expense at a local restaurant as your reason it is a good deal to eat there . . . what can I even say about that?

[AlanStache]

I think if Panera is your "best" option for a coffee shop to work within for wifi then you need to be looking at how your life and "community" are structured.  But maybe I have just been watching too much NotJustBikes and living in a people centered neighborhood to long.

What thread was it in here were we were recently discussing how far it took to walk to get a good loaf of bread?  Anyway I forgot there is a Panera a few blocks down.  shrug - not been there in years.   

[Log]

I think if Panera is your "best" option for a coffee shop to work within for wifi then you need to be looking at how your life and "community" are structured.  But maybe I have just been watching too much NotJustBikes and living in a people centered neighborhood to long.

What thread was it in here were we were recently discussing how far it took to walk to get a good loaf of bread?  Anyway I forgot there is a Panera a few blocks down.  shrug - not been there in years.

But those other coffee shops might not offer daily coffee for $120/year. If you really are using Panera as your daily work space, and you're mindful about not using is as an excuse to buy over-priced meals there every day, that is kind of a good deal for a start-up entrepreneur or starving-artist type to have a space away from home to work.

Having that daily routine of getting out of bed and out the door to get your morning coffee has a lot of value if you don't have an externally-imposed structure for your work day, and that certainly beats paying regular price for a coffee, if you're actually using it that often.

Now we're obviously far away from the original example from Zamboni, I'm just saying I can see this deal as a compelling case for going to Panera over a nice local coffee shop, if it's primarily about ritual of getting out of the house to do work.

[Metalcat]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Quite a lot, it seems.  See "Vomit Fee".  I recently went to a brunch in DC where 2 people vomited.  One at the table behind ours, and another on the way out, he was just standing at the curb.  I'm not a big brunch lover, but that killed any good vibes for me!  And it was a pretty high-end restaurant (with a good value brunch)

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/restaurants-impose-vomit-fee-on-brunch-goers-to-stem-bottomless-mimosa-problems/

Wait, is the panera "sip club" for alcoholic drinks or regular drinks?

At $3/bev I assumed they were not alcoholic drinks.

Panera (at least the ones I've been too) doesn't sell alcohol.  The brunch mentioned was, I think, a separate conversation from Panera.

I love panera.  I love their broccoli cheddar soup and their bacon turkey bravo sandwich.  It's a special treat in which I occasionally indulge.  Also, due to a very special day we spent together that happened to wind up at Panera for dinner, it's become a special place for my mom and me.  We don't see each other all that often, but we we do, we sometimes end up at Panera because it brings back great memories and we both like having "our place", even it is is a fairly unremarkable fast-casual place.  But I can't imagine gong there weekly.  Also, even if these people go 1/week, their "free" drinks are still costing them about $3.  I just checked and a fountain drink is $3.79.  So they are barely saving anything, and that's before the math on committing to eat out at one specific place, once a week (and not just drink water!).

It was a response to the question of how many drinks one could consume, so it made me question if the sip club was also including alcoholic drinks.

I've never been to a Panera, so I know nothing.

[Villanelle]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

Quite a lot, it seems.  See "Vomit Fee".  I recently went to a brunch in DC where 2 people vomited.  One at the table behind ours, and another on the way out, he was just standing at the curb.  I'm not a big brunch lover, but that killed any good vibes for me!  And it was a pretty high-end restaurant (with a good value brunch)

https://www.wfla.com/news/national/restaurants-impose-vomit-fee-on-brunch-goers-to-stem-bottomless-mimosa-problems/

Wait, is the panera "sip club" for alcoholic drinks or regular drinks?

At $3/bev I assumed they were not alcoholic drinks.

Panera (at least the ones I've been too) doesn't sell alcohol.  The brunch mentioned was, I think, a separate conversation from Panera.

I love panera.  I love their broccoli cheddar soup and their bacon turkey bravo sandwich.  It's a special treat in which I occasionally indulge.  Also, due to a very special day we spent together that happened to wind up at Panera for dinner, it's become a special place for my mom and me.  We don't see each other all that often, but we we do, we sometimes end up at Panera because it brings back great memories and we both like having "our place", even it is is a fairly unremarkable fast-casual place.  But I can't imagine gong there weekly.  Also, even if these people go 1/week, their "free" drinks are still costing them about $3.  I just checked and a fountain drink is $3.79.  So they are barely saving anything, and that's before the math on committing to eat out at one specific place, once a week (and not just drink water!).

It was a response to the question of how many drinks one could consume, so it made me question if the sip club was also including alcoholic drinks.

I've never been to a Panera, so I know nothing.

Imagine a quaint cafe that sells baked goods, coffee beverages, sandwiches and soups.  Then remove most of the personality from it and make it a chain restaurant.  Now you have Panera.

Fun, unrelated fact: I once shit my pants at a Panera lunch with coworkers.  (Had been having bowel issues all morning, and an unexpected sneeze proved too much.) Nothing turns casual work-friends to IRL friends quite like having one run to the nearby Target to buy you a new pair of pants, and everyone agreeing to share the lie that you spilled a drink on your pants at lunch, in order to explain the mid-day wardrobe change.  The lie did not include details on whether that spilled beverage was part of a drink subscription package. 

[Metalcat]

Imagine a quaint cafe that sells baked goods, coffee beverages, sandwiches and soups.  Then remove most of the personality from it and make it a chain restaurant.  Now you have Panera.

Fun, unrelated fact: I once shit my pants at a Panera lunch with coworkers.  (Had been having bowel issues all morning, and an unexpected sneeze proved too much.) Nothing turns casual work-friends to IRL friends quite like having one run to the nearby Target to buy you a new pair of pants, and everyone agreeing to share the lie that you spilled a drink on your pants at lunch, in order to explain the mid-day wardrobe change.  The lie did not include details on whether that spilled beverage was part of a drink subscription package.

I love this story so much.

Also, it sounds like I'm not missing out on much by never having been to a Panera. I'm pretty sure we have one in one of the soulless sectors of my city where I only ever drive through and never stop, but I've always been curious about what the draw is since so many people seem to absolutely rave about it, and obviously there are people who go so often that they have a beverage subscription.

[iris lily]

Here at Panera Central (St. Louis is where it all started) we all affectionally call it “BreadCo” since it started out as “St. Louis bread Company” and was once much better. Turning it into a nationwide chain did the food no service.

I do like their sourdough loaves and so that’s the only reason I go there anymore. Man, that bread is SOUR which I like!

[Just Joe]

Places like Panera serve a purpose for me as a waiting room in the big city.

Once or twice a year (until our teen grew up) I would drop teen and friends at a concert. Then I'd go spend an hour or so at a nearby Panera and then the second hour (or whatever was left) at a specific parking lot where I could sit in the car for free and use the web or watch a downloaded TV show. After the concert, they would walk to me for the ride back to our smallish town.

[RetiredAt63]

It's an upscale Tim's!

[Metalcat]

It's an upscale Tim's!

Ohhhhhhh, okay

[PMG]

I’ll say Panera is one of my preferred choices when interstate traveling. You can get some slightly less fast food options. I only go every couple years so I am always uncomfortably confused with the ordering process.

We’ve also used Panera as a meeting place with difficult relatives (who just don’t get it). We even had a family Christmas there one time. It has a comfy enough vibe, if the visit goes well you can linger a bit, but it’s enough of a chain that it provided some boundaries, if that makes any sense?  Meeting difficult/abusive relatives in a home or at my favorite coffee shop would make me very vulnerable, but meeting at Panera… lets it all blend into the genericness. Of course NOT meeting with them is even better, but it took years of boundary drawing before I was able to flat out refuse.

[charis]

My niece's current life plan is to work just enough to support herself while staying under the income limit to repay her loans, then work more when they are forgiven. When she will be in her 50s.

To be fair, her parents are in their late 50s and just starting to think about saving for retirement, and based on their own comments, not doing a very good job of it.

I think there needs to be more info here.  What is the income limit for the loan forgiveness program and how long does she need to be on it to get forgiveness?  My position is that someone should not intentionally limit their income to achieve forgiveness (ie, turn down/refuse to seek promotion), but frugal folk like myself and others who work in the public sector have been able to save a lot of $$, get forgiveness, and maintain a good income all at the same time.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

How much can anyone drink before, during and after a meal?

I tried their soup ounce and found it very salty, like most commercial food.

Restaurants and packaged food manufacturers tend to add unnecessary salt, grease, and sugar to most foods, to make them "taste better" by appealing to the body's very primitive response to certain chemicals. It exploits a trait that allowed our ancestors to survive during periods of famine by binging on fatty, sweet food that is high in calories but scarce in nature. That's nice for the restaurant (it helps them make money and get repeat customers), but it's physically hard on the customers who aren't genetically designed to withstand that very often.

[ixtap]

My niece's current life plan is to work just enough to support herself while staying under the income limit to repay her loans, then work more when they are forgiven. When she will be in her 50s.

To be fair, her parents are in their late 50s and just starting to think about saving for retirement, and based on their own comments, not doing a very good job of it.

I think there needs to be more info here.  What is the income limit for the loan forgiveness program and how long does she need to be on it to get forgiveness?  My position is that someone should not intentionally limit their income to achieve forgiveness (ie, turn down/refuse to seek promotion), but frugal folk like myself and others who work in the public sector have been able to save a lot of $$, get forgiveness, and maintain a good income all at the same time.

She is basing this plan on the new income based payments with 20 year forgiveness, not the 10 year public sector program.

I doubt she will follow through in the long run; she is also starting to desire a more permanent home. Today's news is that she is talking about getting a permanent job near her grandparents.

[RetiredAt63]

It's an upscale Tim's!

Ohhhhhhh, okay

I'm guessing, never been in one.  But that is what it sounds like.    ;-)