Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 2713979 times)

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6300 on: March 08, 2021, 09:34:08 AM »
^^  or, in one sentence, follow Captain Awkward's advice and return awkward to sender.

Miss Manners allows you to be polite and blunt and reply with some version of "why would you tell/ask me that?" for intrusive comments/questions.


SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6301 on: March 08, 2021, 10:21:59 AM »
^^  or, in one sentence, follow Captain Awkward's advice and return awkward to sender.

Miss Manners allows you to be polite and blunt and reply with some version of "why would you tell/ask me that?" for intrusive comments/questions.

That's a very good way of doing it as well.  It transfers the pain and awkwardness back to the person causing the problem.   It puts the spotlight on them in a "Where where you on the night of March the 3rd at 3am?" police investigation kind of way.  (As opposed to a "Look at me!  I want to hog the attention!" kind of way.

And if you don't like what they say because they counter with a different attack, you can just repeat the question.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6302 on: March 08, 2021, 11:50:11 AM »
I've found that in many cases, it's worth taking the time to explore the premises which lead a person to make a statement like "you need to move into a bigger place."  If you drill down deep enough, you'll either A) find out what the questioner's actual, basic concern is, B) make the questioner uncomfortable enough that they drop the conversation, or C) expose the fact that there's no actual basis for the concern, and it's just the fact that you're doing something non-traditional or just different from them.  Here are some imaginary examples for how such a conversation could go:

Sis: you know you have to move to a bigger place soon
Me: Why would I want to do that?
S: you know who have to have another room, you will not like to live like this
M: What do you mean, "like this"?  What do I need another room for?
S: So you can have your own bedroom
M: Why do I need my own bedroom?
(A: the actual concern)
S: So you have privacy when getting dressed or whatever
M: I see.  I actually handle that need by <dressing in the bathroom, other solution, etc>, and I save $500/mo by living in a smaller space!
(B: they get uncomfortable)
S: So you can... um....you know...
M: .....?
(C: it's just non-traditional)
S: Because that's what parents do!
M: So?

AMandM

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6303 on: March 08, 2021, 12:22:18 PM »
Another possibility is D), you discover they are criticizing you in order to validate their choices. This is psychological self-preservation on their part if what you do seems to them like an indictment of what they do. E.g. if your sister is overspending on housing, but telling herself it's impossible to do otherwise, you are living proof that it's *not* impossible... so it's important that what you are doing be wrong somehow, to justify her not also doing it.

LinneaH

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6304 on: March 08, 2021, 01:24:44 PM »
I LOVE YOU ALL

I have been blunt with her before, but not on this topic, so I think it is time.
I will start with the more low-key version of "why do you say that?/what do you mean?" but I am guessing it wont help so I will then move to the SwordGuy method and go through the stages, I think that somewhere around here should do it:

If you haven't been nicely blunt enough yet, I'll start off with a simple suggestion the next time these conversations come up:

"I have heard your opinion on this before.  I do not choose to hear it again.  We are done with this topic forever."

That's remaining nice but direct.    It's blunt.  You're acknowledging receipt of their advice, you haven't attacked them or their advice.   you're saying you've made your decision and the matter is closed.   This is nicely blunt.  No one should doubt your wishes after this statement.


I should say that we have a good relationship most of the time, it's just this "I know better and I will tell you so" that drives me nuts. She is the type of person you have to be blunt towards, as she doesn't realise she can annoy and even hurt people (I am not hurt at all in this case, could be in other situations, but most people would be hurt from some things she say).

To be honest, I think she has some small worry that I won't be able to have a happy life, but I believe it's also that I am somehow making her choices less clever by showing it can be done in another way. I should add that I have not criticized her choices, if I had done that I believe she would be very upset.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6305 on: March 08, 2021, 01:34:22 PM »
I think I would play games with her! Like get some pictures of a 'tiny' home and tell her you are looking to move into one of those. Something you can pull behind your car if need be. Tell her it has a loft for sleeping and is very compact. Maybe you could ask to park it in her driveway! https://www.ebay.com/itm/284062126067?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338765313&toolid=10001&customid=13f60fbb64c6aa2bb02963dd8efcb84a

MrMoogle

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6306 on: March 08, 2021, 02:00:59 PM »
My brother has been living in a ~2400 square foot house for ~4 years.  About a year and half ago he got married.  They just announced they're moving into a 3800 square foot house.  He's an engineer, and she will be when she graduates, so they can afford it, but I just don't understand.  When he got the 2400 sqft house, he had two or three good friends move in with him, so it didn't seem so bad.  Our dad retired early, so it's not like the idea is alien to him. 

I just want to ask WHHHHHHHHYYYYY?  Everything was finalized before I learned about it, so there's not much point in having a conversation about it.  I wish them the best.  It's just my brain hurts when I think about it.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6307 on: March 08, 2021, 02:05:43 PM »
I think I would play games with her! Like get some pictures of a 'tiny' home and tell her you are looking to move into one of those. Something you can pull behind your car if need be. Tell her it has a loft for sleeping and is very compact. Maybe you could ask to park it in her driveway! https://www.ebay.com/itm/284062126067?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338765313&toolid=10001&customid=13f60fbb64c6aa2bb02963dd8efcb84a

Oh, that's sweet!

SunnyDays

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6308 on: March 08, 2021, 08:41:14 PM »
I LOVE YOU ALL

I have been blunt with her before, but not on this topic, so I think it is time.
I will start with the more low-key version of "why do you say that?/what do you mean?" but I am guessing it wont help so I will then move to the SwordGuy method and go through the stages, I think that somewhere around here should do it:

If you haven't been nicely blunt enough yet, I'll start off with a simple suggestion the next time these conversations come up:

"I have heard your opinion on this before.  I do not choose to hear it again.  We are done with this topic forever."

That's remaining nice but direct.    It's blunt.  You're acknowledging receipt of their advice, you haven't attacked them or their advice.   you're saying you've made your decision and the matter is closed.   This is nicely blunt.  No one should doubt your wishes after this statement.


I should say that we have a good relationship most of the time, it's just this "I know better and I will tell you so" that drives me nuts. She is the type of person you have to be blunt towards, as she doesn't realise she can annoy and even hurt people (I am not hurt at all in this case, could be in other situations, but most people would be hurt from some things she say).

To be honest, I think she has some small worry that I won't be able to have a happy life, but I believe it's also that I am somehow making her choices less clever by showing it can be done in another way. I should add that I have not criticized her choices, if I had done that I believe she would be very upset.

Maybe try getting right to the point, as in “You don’t have to agree with everything I do, but you need to stop telling me so.  You’re hurting our relationship, because when you behave this way, I don’t want to spend time with you.  If you cannot stop, I have to leave/ask you to leave.”  This will tell you how much she values the relationship.

Tass

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6309 on: March 08, 2021, 08:46:48 PM »
She is the type of person you have to be blunt towards

Sometimes I worry I am this type of person, and I am very grateful when people spell things out for me instead of trying to be subtle for the sake of politeness. Clarity of communication is precious.

Mighty Eyebrows

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6310 on: March 13, 2021, 08:51:39 PM »
To throw two bits into the ring, it seems like the usual criticism from someone threatened by seeing an alternative life choice. Most mustachians should be familiar with the "you can't do that, it is impossible" kind of comment (vegans get it too). People subconsciously (or consciously) get defensive when they see someone demonstrating a lifestyle that contradicts their assumptions. It really isn't a rational thing. Understanding this helps in being kind in reaction to their dumb comments.

A fellow I worked with taught me this many decades ago and it stuck with me because it's universally applicable.

It's The Wendelken Law of Pain Management.

The Law applies whenever there is a long running problem between people or groups of people.  If simple niceness hasn't already solved the problem, it's because those who cause the pain don't care and they are not those who feel the pain.   The way to solve the problem is to transfer the pain back to the person who caused it.     

Swordguy, this is well said. I couldn't find anything on The Wendelken Law of Pain Management by searching the intertubes. Is the name just something you based on your friend or is it more formal?

Personally, I would only "transfer pain back" if it was not solvable some other way. Drawing boundaries is always good, though.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6311 on: March 13, 2021, 09:00:28 PM »
To throw two bits into the ring, it seems like the usual criticism from someone threatened by seeing an alternative life choice. Most mustachians should be familiar with the "you can't do that, it is impossible" kind of comment (vegans get it too). People subconsciously (or consciously) get defensive when they see someone demonstrating a lifestyle that contradicts their assumptions. It really isn't a rational thing. Understanding this helps in being kind in reaction to their dumb comments.

A fellow I worked with taught me this many decades ago and it stuck with me because it's universally applicable.

It's The Wendelken Law of Pain Management.

The Law applies whenever there is a long running problem between people or groups of people.  If simple niceness hasn't already solved the problem, it's because those who cause the pain don't care and they are not those who feel the pain.   The way to solve the problem is to transfer the pain back to the person who caused it.     

Swordguy, this is well said. I couldn't find anything on The Wendelken Law of Pain Management by searching the intertubes. Is the name just something you based on your friend or is it more formal?

Personally, I would only "transfer pain back" if it was not solvable some other way. Drawing boundaries is always good, though.

He came up with it so he gets the credit.   And he came up with it long before there was an internet for the general public to use, so it's not surprising it didn't get famous.

It's a long running problem and the people who are causing the pain are aware they are causing the problem for others and are UNWILLING to fix the problem.   That's when it's appropriate to transfer the pain back.

It's certainly inappropriate to transfer the pain back if the other folks don't know they're causing the problem.   And it's not appropriate to transfer it back if they (or those they report to) simply cannot transfer the problem.   I guess I should have spelled that out better, but it's definitely part of when the law should or should not be invoked.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 09:06:02 PM by SwordGuy »

Dicey

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6312 on: March 13, 2021, 11:30:07 PM »
She is the type of person you have to be blunt towards

Sometimes I worry I am this type of person, and I am very grateful when people spell things out for me instead of trying to be subtle for the sake of politeness. Clarity of communication is precious.
Me three. If I had a dollar for every time I said, "But that's not what I meant!" I'd be FIRE. Oh, wait a minute...

Plina

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6313 on: March 14, 2021, 12:14:22 AM »
She is the type of person you have to be blunt towards

Sometimes I worry I am this type of person, and I am very grateful when people spell things out for me instead of trying to be subtle for the sake of politeness. Clarity of communication is precious.
Me three. If I had a dollar for every time I said, "But that's not what I meant!" I'd be FIRE. Oh, wait a minute...

Wouldn’t the world be a lot nicer if people were more direct instead of wrapping it up in a lot of politness and diluting the message. And yes there is a difference between being rude and spelling things out.


Midwestern Mustachio

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6314 on: March 15, 2021, 12:24:33 PM »
My brother has been living in a ~2400 square foot house for ~4 years.  About a year and half ago he got married.  They just announced they're moving into a 3800 square foot house.  He's an engineer, and she will be when she graduates, so they can afford it, but I just don't understand.  When he got the 2400 sqft house, he had two or three good friends move in with him, so it didn't seem so bad.  Our dad retired early, so it's not like the idea is alien to him. 

I just want to ask WHHHHHHHHYYYYY?  Everything was finalized before I learned about it, so there's not much point in having a conversation about it.  I wish them the best.  It's just my brain hurts when I think about it.

My wife and I bought a 2400 sq ft 1.5 story home in Feb of last year. At the time, her parents (who are empty-nesters in a 3600 sq ft house), told us that it wouldn't be nearly enough space. We didn't have any kids at the time, and we'd previously been living in a 1200 sq ft town house (and before that, a 400 sq ft studio apt).

Cut to a year later, and there are still entire parts of the house that we enter maybe once a week. I've even had to add a recurring reminder on my calendar to do weekly rounds this spring to check for rain/water damage as the snow thaws.

We've considered downsizing, but the interest rate drop has caused home prices to balloon in our city. A 2 bedroom 1 bath 1200 sq ft single family home now goes for what we paid for our house. But that doesn't change the fact that we should have bought something smaller a year ago and put the difference into Betterment. I kick myself when I think about the market run we've had in the last 12 months. Oh well -- live and learn.

dandarc

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6315 on: March 15, 2021, 12:44:04 PM »
Pretty sure we'd be in the same place if we went to 2400 square feet - 1500 has proven to be more than enough space for us, particularly now that we're way more intentional with how the place is furnished - we had kind of just mashed 2 single-person's apartments worth of stuff together in our old place, then moved everything to new place when we bought it in 2014. But a temporary job on the west coast and renting the place out with the intention of returning in 12-18 months was the kick in the pants we needed to get rid of almost all the old furniture and make the house work far better for us.

I'm sure mother in law thinks we're nuts with this small house, particularly compared to theirs, but it was actually her idea that was really the key to making this whole thing work so much better - stop using long and narrow room as dining + living - get a dining table that fits another long and narrow room better than the one we had, and use the first long & narrow room as just a living room. House is like twice as big now than it used to be.

Mighty Eyebrows

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6316 on: March 15, 2021, 03:58:49 PM »
A fellow I worked with taught me this many decades ago and it stuck with me because it's universally applicable.

It's The Wendelken Law of Pain Management.

The Law applies whenever there is a long running problem between people or groups of people.  If simple niceness hasn't already solved the problem, it's because those who cause the pain don't care and they are not those who feel the pain.   The way to solve the problem is to transfer the pain back to the person who caused it.     

Swordguy, this is well said. I couldn't find anything on The Wendelken Law of Pain Management by searching the intertubes. Is the name just something you based on your friend or is it more formal?

He came up with it so he gets the credit.   And he came up with it long before there was an internet for the general public to use, so it's not surprising it didn't get famous.

It took me a long time to figure this one out on my own, and have a few relatives that eventually needed some Wendelken Pain Management. I shall do my part to make his law known more widely!

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6317 on: March 15, 2021, 05:37:22 PM »
A fellow I worked with taught me this many decades ago and it stuck with me because it's universally applicable.

It's The Wendelken Law of Pain Management.

The Law applies whenever there is a long running problem between people or groups of people.  If simple niceness hasn't already solved the problem, it's because those who cause the pain don't care and they are not those who feel the pain.   The way to solve the problem is to transfer the pain back to the person who caused it.     

Swordguy, this is well said. I couldn't find anything on The Wendelken Law of Pain Management by searching the intertubes. Is the name just something you based on your friend or is it more formal?

He came up with it so he gets the credit.   And he came up with it long before there was an internet for the general public to use, so it's not surprising it didn't get famous.

It took me a long time to figure this one out on my own, and have a few relatives that eventually needed some Wendelken Pain Management. I shall do my part to make his law known more widely!

He also played a fair bit of cards in the student center in college (Spades primarily) and was a very good card player but with bad card luck.    His friends named a hand after him, the Wendelken Hand.   It was the 2, 3, 4 and 5 of diamonds, hearts and clubs, and the King of spades when his partner didn't have the Ace.     Couldn't take a trick unless he bid that he would take none, and then was pretty much guaranteed to be forced to take one.

Monerexia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6318 on: March 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM »
A fellow I worked with taught me this many decades ago and it stuck with me because it's universally applicable.

It's The Wendelken Law of Pain Management.

The Law applies whenever there is a long running problem between people or groups of people.  If simple niceness hasn't already solved the problem, it's because those who cause the pain don't care and they are not those who feel the pain.   The way to solve the problem is to transfer the pain back to the person who caused it.     

Swordguy, this is well said. I couldn't find anything on The Wendelken Law of Pain Management by searching the intertubes. Is the name just something you based on your friend or is it more formal?

He came up with it so he gets the credit.   And he came up with it long before there was an internet for the general public to use, so it's not surprising it didn't get famous.

It took me a long time to figure this one out on my own, and have a few relatives that eventually needed some Wendelken Pain Management. I shall do my part to make his law known more widely!

Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.

chaskavitch

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6319 on: March 16, 2021, 06:48:53 AM »
A fellow I worked with taught me this many decades ago and it stuck with me because it's universally applicable.

It's The Wendelken Law of Pain Management.

The Law applies whenever there is a long running problem between people or groups of people.  If simple niceness hasn't already solved the problem, it's because those who cause the pain don't care and they are not those who feel the pain.   The way to solve the problem is to transfer the pain back to the person who caused it.     

Swordguy, this is well said. I couldn't find anything on The Wendelken Law of Pain Management by searching the intertubes. Is the name just something you based on your friend or is it more formal?

He came up with it so he gets the credit.   And he came up with it long before there was an internet for the general public to use, so it's not surprising it didn't get famous.

It took me a long time to figure this one out on my own, and have a few relatives that eventually needed some Wendelken Pain Management. I shall do my part to make his law known more widely!

He also played a fair bit of cards in the student center in college (Spades primarily) and was a very good card player but with bad card luck.    His friends named a hand after him, the Wendelken Hand.   It was the 2, 3, 4 and 5 of diamonds, hearts and clubs, and the King of spades when his partner didn't have the Ace.     Couldn't take a trick unless he bid that he would take none, and then was pretty much guaranteed to be forced to take one.

That is just such a terrible hand.  Wow.  Yeah, there's not much you can do with that at all.

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6320 on: March 16, 2021, 10:41:15 AM »
Uncle Dumbass is at it again.  When we last left off, he had screwed up his taxes somehow (my guess is that he "forgot" that he sold a house) and owed the IRS a pile of money.  He just got word that the K-1 for his "fiancé" has been approved so she and her kids will be here soon.  My mother has been terrified that she will be asked to be a joint sponsor in the event that her brother is unable to work anymore (he's 67 and has been doing the travel nurse thing since retiring from his permanent hospital).  I'm hoping that now that the K-1 has been approved that this is no longer a possibility because while I'm pretty sure dad wouldn't let her do anything stupid, it doesn't mean her brother wouldn't try something sneaky.

Mighty Eyebrows

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6321 on: March 16, 2021, 10:55:39 AM »
Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.
Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Monerexia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6322 on: March 16, 2021, 11:31:50 AM »
Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.
Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6323 on: March 16, 2021, 12:20:36 PM »
She is the type of person you have to be blunt towards

Sometimes I worry I am this type of person, and I am very grateful when people spell things out for me instead of trying to be subtle for the sake of politeness. Clarity of communication is precious.
Me three. If I had a dollar for every time I said, "But that's not what I meant!" I'd be FIRE. Oh, wait a minute...

Wouldn’t the world be a lot nicer if people were more direct instead of wrapping it up in a lot of politness and diluting the message. And yes there is a difference between being rude and spelling things out.
I had a former boss like this. He prided himself in being “diplomatic” and said so several times. The problem was, he was so diplomatic he couldn’t just come out and say what he thought. So every conversation took 3x as long as it should and required me to interpret his examples, parrot back to him “so I am hearing that you are trying to say X”, have him say “not quite”, and then sit through another round of stories and examples for me to decipher. It was exhausting and I never knew where I stood with him.

sonofsven

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6324 on: March 17, 2021, 08:56:29 PM »
Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.
Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Monerexia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6325 on: March 17, 2021, 10:12:13 PM »
Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.
Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

DadJokes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6326 on: March 18, 2021, 05:43:08 AM »
Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.
Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

I'm petty enough that I would make sure that she learns about it after my death and the reason why.

ducky19

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6327 on: March 18, 2021, 06:18:51 AM »
Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.
Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

I'm petty enough that I would make sure that she learns about it after my death and the reason why.

+1 (x1000).

solon

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6328 on: March 18, 2021, 09:45:45 AM »
Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.
Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

I'm petty enough that I would make sure that she learns about it after my death and the reason why.

It sounds like the niece might be petty enough that, if she learned that, she might contest the will and make life horrible for the legit heirs.

Monerexia

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6329 on: March 18, 2021, 01:10:04 PM »
Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.
Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

I'm petty enough that I would make sure that she learns about it after my death and the reason why.

It sounds like the niece might be petty enough that, if she learned that, she might contest the will and make life horrible for the legit heirs.

Yes. Best route for me is complete and total radio silence under all circumstances. Anybody who would do that: borrow money from their uncle (which is strange in itself; I never did that and I was very, very broke at times. It never even occurred to me), string them along and then ghost them, just not respond. In the penultimate text I asked them to pay $50/month, which is $1.67/day, or $.55/day for each of the three of them. No response. The last text, weeks later, was asking my niece to please contact me and set up a payment plan that works for her, as she had promised. The End.

Tigerpine

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6330 on: March 18, 2021, 01:43:54 PM »
Yes I like this but for family members who have betrayed me I don't care whether they feel pain, do not feel pain, get or do not get educated, I simply want, and have obtained for myself, their absence.
Yes, that was essentially my solution as well, with some pain management on the way there.

Yep! At times I must admit they do live rent-free in my head for periods of time, but it's more incredulity at their choices than any real burn. Loaned my niece $2500 in an "emergency" last June. Her and her parents immediately became defensive, avoidant, angry, abusive and blaming towards me in my kind and gentle efforts to get them to make me whole. $0 in four months and I let it go. You can do that to me exactly once, then it's over. Weird that people make that choice, like how many people do you know that could and would loan you $2500 in less than two hours. For me it's definitely fewer than 10 and definitely fewer than five. And then to go about immediately alienating that person and ruining that relationship. So bizarre haha. Live and learn my friend!

If they can create some conflict it helps them justify not paying you, especially if there's sharp words traded, because "you're being such a jerk about it!"

Yes for sure. It was an expensive $2500 for my niece however--as she is my only niece, I had her in my will as receiving a rental property of mine--she did not know this--probably 70K equity now and total value of 350K, in 20+ years certainly over ~$600K and totally paid off. Met with attys at about the six month mark and got the two signatures and took her out of it. She will never know, which is how such things go.

I'm petty enough that I would make sure that she learns about it after my death and the reason why.

It sounds like the niece might be petty enough that, if she learned that, she might contest the will and make life horrible for the legit heirs.

Yes. Best route for me is complete and total radio silence under all circumstances. Anybody who would do that: borrow money from their uncle (which is strange in itself; I never did that and I was very, very broke at times. It never even occurred to me), string them along and then ghost them, just not respond. In the penultimate text I asked them to pay $50/month, which is $1.67/day, or $.55/day for each of the three of them. No response. The last text, weeks later, was asking my niece to please contact me and set up a payment plan that works for her, as she had promised. The End.
You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6331 on: March 18, 2021, 02:25:21 PM »
You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.
I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6332 on: March 18, 2021, 03:23:18 PM »
You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.
I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.
Bound to be a dried dog turd lying about that you can store in some tupperware you would otherwise throw away.   

"Niece:  I bequeath this tupperwared dog turd in memory of the $2,500 loan I gave you; and that you stiffed me on.   Enjoy it with my best wishes.  After much thoughtful deliberation, I can't think a a niece who deserves it more."

There, you're being inclusive.   And giving.   And very clear on your intent.  :)

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6333 on: March 18, 2021, 03:50:09 PM »
What "I" would love to do in such a situation, is to have it worded so the niece thinks she's getting a rather large portion of the pie. Make it look like a pretty even split too, i.e. person A gets $120k, person B gets $120k, person C gets $120k, niece gets $120k, whatever is left goes to charity. But then the will goes into how each amount is reduced; only the niece has an unpaid loan of $2,500, which after interest, late fees, mega late fees, much higher interest rate after going into default, all compounded over X years, now has an amount owed of...$125k. The $120k amount that has been willed to the niece can be applied to the amount owed by the niece, and any remaining amount will either be paid to the niece (if there was any left over) or forgiven (if there was none left over...and there will of course be none left over). The idea is to make it look like this was the original wording in an old, and occasionally updated will. This way the niece will realize that if she had paid back the $2,500, she would have gotten a BIG payday.

But of course this will just cause the will to be contested, and the others in the will having to wait to get their rightful inheritance (which will end up being reduced by legal fees...and possibly by a buyout to get niece to sign-off and release the funds). So, absolutely don't do this. Heck, I'd be leery of even something like "and to niece I forgive the $2,500 loan I gave her plus all the late fees and interest it had accrued over all these years" because all she has to do is say "oh, I paid, here's proof, so now give me the $2,500 plus late fees and interest it accrued over all these years." I'd just bequeath something neutral, like the Mainstays Dinnerware set she enjoyed at Thanksgiving or the Timex Atomic wall clock she seemed to like so much whenever she visited.

Adventine

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6334 on: March 18, 2021, 03:59:36 PM »
You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.
I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.
Bound to be a dried dog turd lying about that you can store in some tupperware you would otherwise throw away.   

"Niece:  I bequeath this tupperwared dog turd in memory of the $2,500 loan I gave you; and that you stiffed me on.   Enjoy it with my best wishes.  After much thoughtful deliberation, I can't think a a niece who deserves it more."

There, you're being inclusive.   And giving.   And very clear on your intent.  :)

Fiendishly clever plan!

Mighty Eyebrows

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6335 on: March 19, 2021, 12:02:13 PM »
I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.

I am sure it varies by legal jurisdiction, but I would be surprised if a niece would have any legal standing to challenge a will. Spouse(s) and children would obviously have much more ability to challenge. However, if anyone has examples contradicting my assumption, I would be very interested.

DadJokes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6336 on: March 23, 2021, 06:40:35 AM »
On the phone with my 55 y.o. father yesterday:

Him: I got a new truck! Well, new-to-me truck. It's a 2015 Sierra
Me: I'm glad you went down the used route. What was wrong with your old vehicle?
Him: It started having some mechanical issues, so I decided to get a new one rather than deal with the hassle.
Me: ...
Him: We just paid off my wife's car in November, so all we did was trade a payment for a payment.
Me: O...kay? How long is the loan?
Him: 72 months. Our only debts now are the truck, the mortgage, and a home improvement loan (rolled into mortgage).
Me: I guess that's not too bad.
Him: Oh, and the 401(k) loan I took out to pay off the credit cards last year, but that's almost paid off.

Follow up!

Him: Did I tell you I got a new motorcycle?
Me: No...Didn't you just get a truck a couple weeks ago?
My wife overhearing: Be nice
Him: Yeah
Me: And aren't you also planning to get an RV?
Him: We're not getting the RV anytime soon. That's more of a retirement plan.
Me: And when is that going to be?
Him: Well, one of my co-workers is still working at 69, and I think I'll have him beat.


That means my father, who is a truck driver for an oil company, plans to be working for another 14 years at a minimum. As such, I should in fact retire before my own father. He went on to say that he makes about $115k per year, which is more than our household income, and he lives in an extremely low cost of living area.

During our weekly phone call last night, I learned that he expects to be reduced to a 40 hour limit, which would effectively reduce his pay by half. He's already looking into getting a deferment on his truck loan.

The saga continues!

As previously mentioned, my father got a new motorcycle sometime around January/February. He had a motorcycle previously that hadn't run in years (2005 touring bike with ~100k miles). He decided to give the old bike to my step-sister's fiance (we'll just call him Jon). Jon was supposed to get the bike fixed, get a motorcycle license, get the bike registered in his name, and get the bike insured.

Instead, Jon got the bike fixed and was riding the bike without a license, uninsured, and with expired registration still in my father's name. Jon is a pilot, so you'd think that he has some common sense, but apparently that's not the case. While taking a curve too fast, he drifted out of his lane and hit a pickup.

Jon miraculously didn't die, though he has a handful of broken bones and a lot of road rash. However, now we have to wonder how this is all going to play out financially. The pickup will probably be written off as totaled, and I'm sure this could come back on my father, as the bike was still legally his property. Jon can probably afford to pay for the pickup with his income, but who knows what else is going to come of this?

I don't know why, but it just seems that people who make bad decisions with money have more bad things happen to them. This is just one of those things. It's certainly more Jon's fault than my father's, but my father has already put himself in a hole from previous mistakes.

My father is the story that just keeps giving.

He rode his motorcycle halfway across the country to see us for a couple days, so I got to spend some time talking...well, listening. I try to bite my tongue to keep the wife happy.

I was under the impression that the RV (see bold above) was supposed to be part of his eventual retirement plan. Now he is planning on getting it next year. In fact, it's actually the reason he got his truck, apparently. So that'll be a truck, motorcycle, and RV all within a couple years.

But wait, there's more!

He's also planning on expanding his front porch, despite the facts that: 1) he already has a back porch, and 2) the wind in West Texas makes being in front of the house unpleasant fairly often, while the back porch is shielded from wind by the house. His reasoning? On the back porch, their view is just the fence. If they had a porch in front of the house, they would have a view of...fields, which are dirt most of the year anyway.

Update!

My father called me a few days ago and told me that he has a buyer for the RV. Since he only bought it nine months or so ago, I was surprised and asked why. "Because we don't have time to use it." Yeah, because you're so busy working to make all of your payments.

But hey, he already has a buyer, and he's selling the RV for more than he paid (at least up front - I'm sure they've sunk money into it in the past nine months that he isn't accounting for). The buyer even sent a check for earnest money, and for some reason he sent more than he said he would...

If you're familiar with buying and selling on Craigslist, then you probably know where this is going.

A couple days later, the buyer contacts my father and asks if my father can refund the extra portion of the earnest money that was sent by mistake. Yeah, just send a money order for the extra few thousand dollars.

Thankfully, my father realized that something was off by then. He asked the bank to hold the check and let him know whether or not it clears and is not sending anything back.

My father still holds out hope that it's not a scam and that the buyer will be by to inspect the RV in the next couple days. However, the RV that he hoped was sold is now not sold.

Dogastrophe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6337 on: March 23, 2021, 08:40:19 AM »

A couple days later, the buyer contacts my father and asks if my father can refund the extra portion of the earnest money that was sent by mistake. Yeah, just send a money order for the extra few thousand dollars.

Thankfully, my father realized that something was off by then. He asked the bank to hold the check and let him know whether or not it clears and is not sending anything back.

My father still holds out hope that it's not a scam and that the buyer will be by to inspect the RV in the next couple days. However, the RV that he hoped was sold is now not sold.

Yup, it's likely that today's message will be that the buyer is stationed overseas in Scamastan and not able to come by and pick up the RV but he has contracted Scam Bros Movers to pick it up for him.

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6338 on: March 23, 2021, 09:26:51 AM »
Apparently my brother and his wife are moving back in with my parents in order to pay off some debt.  I'll admit to being curious as to how they were holding everything together, but I didn't think it was this bad.  My suspicion is that his new promotion is not being held up because they can't find someone to replace him at his old position, but that there is an issue with his credit.  Hopefully, this will be the kick in the ass they need to get it together.


Update:  This has not been the kick in the ass that they needed.  When they moved in with mom and dad, they brought a roommate with them.  So my parents have three extra adults and four extra dogs living with them now.  The debt situation is much, much worse than first thought.  And instead of using their stimulus check to pay things down....they bought a trailer to haul their kayaks.

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6339 on: March 23, 2021, 10:56:30 AM »
Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6340 on: March 23, 2021, 11:27:13 AM »
Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

Pretty much.  Much more than I would have had. 

SunnyDays

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6341 on: March 23, 2021, 01:39:54 PM »
Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

Malcat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6342 on: March 23, 2021, 01:48:06 PM »
Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

Seriously.

Unless the roommate is little Jimmy, the childhood neighbour kid whose parents were brutally murdered, so Sugaree's parents always took him in whenever he needed anything, and he's lived with Sugaree's sibling since their teen years, and the parents don't just think of him as family, but secretly like him more than their own kids, then what the fuck are they doing letting the roommate freeload????

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6343 on: March 23, 2021, 01:51:00 PM »
Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

Seriously.

Unless the roommate is little Jimmy, the childhood neighbour kid whose parents were brutally murdered, so Sugaree's parents always took him in whenever he needed anything, and he's lived with Sugaree's sibling since their teen years, and the parents don't just think of him as family, but secretly like him more than their own kids, then what the fuck are they doing letting the roommate freeload????

The way I understand it, the roommate is the only one paying rent.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6344 on: March 23, 2021, 01:59:04 PM »
Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

Seriously.

Unless the roommate is little Jimmy, the childhood neighbour kid whose parents were brutally murdered, so Sugaree's parents always took him in whenever he needed anything, and he's lived with Sugaree's sibling since their teen years, and the parents don't just think of him as family, but secretly like him more than their own kids, then what the fuck are they doing letting the roommate freeload????

The way I understand it, the roommate is the only one paying rent.

Or they all are in a three way relationship. 

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6345 on: March 23, 2021, 02:06:38 PM »
Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

Seriously.

Unless the roommate is little Jimmy, the childhood neighbour kid whose parents were brutally murdered, so Sugaree's parents always took him in whenever he needed anything, and he's lived with Sugaree's sibling since their teen years, and the parents don't just think of him as family, but secretly like him more than their own kids, then what the fuck are they doing letting the roommate freeload????

The way I understand it, the roommate is the only one paying rent.

Or they all are in a three way relationship.

Well, that's definitely a possibility that I hadn't considered.  And one that requires a gallon of mental bleach.

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6346 on: March 23, 2021, 03:12:26 PM »
Your parents must have an amazing amount of patience.

No offence Sugaree, but I was thinking it’s more like an amazing lack of backbone.

Seriously.

Unless the roommate is little Jimmy, the childhood neighbour kid whose parents were brutally murdered, so Sugaree's parents always took him in whenever he needed anything, and he's lived with Sugaree's sibling since their teen years, and the parents don't just think of him as family, but secretly like him more than their own kids, then what the fuck are they doing letting the roommate freeload????

The way I understand it, the roommate is the only one paying rent.

Or they all are in a three way relationship.

Honestly that I had that idea too. Sorry Sugaree.

Tinker

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6347 on: March 26, 2021, 09:01:37 AM »
You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.
I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.
i think 2500$ sounds about right in this instance

UpNAtom

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6348 on: March 26, 2021, 01:55:33 PM »
You might want to check with your attorney, but I've heard that if you want to ensure that a certain relative is excluded from your estate to explicitly state that relative will receive nothing by name.  Otherwise s/he can claim that the will is incomplete and therefore s/he deserves some of the estate proceeds.  Something to consider.
I've also heard it advised to include  that person in your will, but only a token amount, with a condition that if they contest the will, they receive nothing.  If they're cut out entirely, they've got nothing to lose (except attorney fees) by challenging it.
i think 2500$ sounds about right in this instance
If I was feeling particularly evil at the time, I would be asking my lawyer if I could add the debt to the estate: to my estate, in addition to my accounts that shall ever so graciously be split among my favourites, do remember that niece dearest owes $2500.  I leave a gift of forgiveness of copious amounts of interest and fees over the years.  The estate may choose to forgive or pursue the $2500 with my blessing.   

brandon4454

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6349 on: April 07, 2021, 08:25:40 AM »
I was visiting my brother's family, my mother, and my girlfriend for Easter. My brother and his wife make around $200k, but spend every dime on cars, vacations, and their large house. I have a small 1950's house that is brick with wood floor that I bought a year ago for $60k. My brothers wife says I am the cheapest person she has ever met. Before I can reply my mother who owes $10k in credit card debt says I need to enjoy my money and my life a little more.

I live far from a spartan lifestyle. I took three vacations this year to a state park, the grand canyon, and to see them for easter. My brother and his wife are looking to retire in the next 10 years. I'm much younger and tell them congratulations and that I should be retiring the same time. I don't think they will ever be able to retire. I got a text yesterday that they were in my area on their way to the beach...again.