Author Topic: Relatives who just don't get it  (Read 3562407 times)

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6050 on: November 18, 2020, 01:30:20 PM »
We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer. 

I can't stand passive-aggressive behavior.   It's so damn manipulative and dishonest.

I feel for you.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6051 on: November 19, 2020, 12:33:10 AM »
We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer. 

I can't stand passive-aggressive behavior.   It's so damn manipulative and dishonest.

I feel for you.

Ugh, that stuff enrages me. I always want to just treat the "hints" at total face value. Like he's just imparted the knowledge that soon he will need some toilet paper. Right. Knowledge received. Move on. Ohhhhh, you wanted to ask meeeee to get some? Why didn't you sayyyyy?

I am not my best self with this crap.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6052 on: November 19, 2020, 06:23:19 AM »
We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer. 

I can't stand passive-aggressive behavior.   It's so damn manipulative and dishonest.

I feel for you.

Ugh, that stuff enrages me. I always want to just treat the "hints" at total face value. Like he's just imparted the knowledge that soon he will need some toilet paper. Right. Knowledge received. Move on. Ohhhhh, you wanted to ask meeeee to get some? Why didn't you sayyyyy?

I am not my best self with this crap.

We all have our foibles.   

Constant whiners make me want to get my axe and go all Lizzy Borden on them.   And I know how.   

That short axe I'm holding in my right hand is about to get personal with the other fellow.

Smokystache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6053 on: November 19, 2020, 07:32:34 AM »
We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer. 

I can't stand passive-aggressive behavior.   It's so damn manipulative and dishonest.

I feel for you.

Ugh, that stuff enrages me. I always want to just treat the "hints" at total face value. Like he's just imparted the knowledge that soon he will need some toilet paper. Right. Knowledge received. Move on. Ohhhhh, you wanted to ask meeeee to get some? Why didn't you sayyyyy?

I am not my best self with this crap.

We all have our foibles.   

Constant whiners make me want to get my axe and go all Lizzy Borden on them.   And I know how.   

That short axe I'm holding in my right hand is about to get personal with the other fellow.

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DadJokes

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6054 on: November 19, 2020, 08:58:30 AM »
We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer. 

I can't stand passive-aggressive behavior.   It's so damn manipulative and dishonest.

I feel for you.

Ugh, that stuff enrages me. I always want to just treat the "hints" at total face value. Like he's just imparted the knowledge that soon he will need some toilet paper. Right. Knowledge received. Move on. Ohhhhh, you wanted to ask meeeee to get some? Why didn't you sayyyyy?

I am not my best self with this crap.

We all have our foibles.   

Constant whiners make me want to get my axe and go all Lizzy Borden on them.   And I know how.   

That short axe I'm holding in my right hand is about to get personal with the other fellow.

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Shouldn't it be AxeGuy instead?

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6055 on: November 19, 2020, 01:26:15 PM »
We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer. 

Complaining about him in a chat room wont change his future behavior.  "Bill, this is an example of what we have talked about in the past.  If you need us to send you some TP paper please directly ask us - we will be happy to help."  Some people dont get what we think would be obvious clues or read the situation the same as we do. 

dandarc

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6056 on: November 19, 2020, 01:53:54 PM »
If we can't complain in chat rooms, I can save $50 / month on internet access.

AlanStache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6057 on: November 19, 2020, 02:00:48 PM »
If we can't complain in chat rooms, I can save $50 / month on internet access.

Ok but else how will you get cat videos and MLM sales pitches from high school acquaintances?

Psychstache

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6058 on: November 19, 2020, 02:03:56 PM »
We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer. 

Complaining about him in a chat room wont change his future behavior.  "Bill, this is an example of what we have talked about in the past.  If you need us to send you some TP paper please directly ask us - we will be happy to help."  Some people dont get what we think would be obvious clues or read the situation the same as we do.

There was another forumite who used to go with (and I have since stolen):

"oh wow. That's a bummer. What's your plan to fix it?"

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6059 on: November 19, 2020, 02:21:13 PM »
We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer. 

I can't stand passive-aggressive behavior.   It's so damn manipulative and dishonest.

I feel for you.

Ugh, that stuff enrages me. I always want to just treat the "hints" at total face value. Like he's just imparted the knowledge that soon he will need some toilet paper. Right. Knowledge received. Move on. Ohhhhh, you wanted to ask meeeee to get some? Why didn't you sayyyyy?

I am not my best self with this crap.

We all have our foibles.   

Constant whiners make me want to get my axe and go all Lizzy Borden on them.   And I know how.   

That short axe I'm holding in my right hand is about to get personal with the other fellow.

Fighting over a package of toilet paper huh? Or parking space? ;) (Looks like fun)

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6060 on: November 19, 2020, 02:40:31 PM »
We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer. 

I can't stand passive-aggressive behavior.   It's so damn manipulative and dishonest.

I feel for you.

Ugh, that stuff enrages me. I always want to just treat the "hints" at total face value. Like he's just imparted the knowledge that soon he will need some toilet paper. Right. Knowledge received. Move on. Ohhhhh, you wanted to ask meeeee to get some? Why didn't you sayyyyy?

I am not my best self with this crap.
My 6 year old does this and I don’t feed into it because it also drives me nuts.

“I am thirsty. I need water!”
“Oh, is that so? What are you going to do about it?”
“I’m thirsty. I need you to get me water.”
“That is not how we ask for things around here.”
“Mummy, dearest, can you please get me some water?”
“Ah hah! Yes, I can get you some water.”

ixtap

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6061 on: November 19, 2020, 04:09:17 PM »
We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer. 

I can't stand passive-aggressive behavior.   It's so damn manipulative and dishonest.

I feel for you.

Ugh, that stuff enrages me. I always want to just treat the "hints" at total face value. Like he's just imparted the knowledge that soon he will need some toilet paper. Right. Knowledge received. Move on. Ohhhhh, you wanted to ask meeeee to get some? Why didn't you sayyyyy?

I am not my best self with this crap.
My 6 year old does this and I don’t feed into it because it also drives me nuts.

“I am thirsty. I need water!”
“Oh, is that so? What are you going to do about it?”
“I’m thirsty. I need you to get me water.”
“That is not how we ask for things around here.”
“Mummy, dearest, can you please get me some water?”
“Ah hah! Yes, I can get you some water.”

That is how I have trained my husband who comes from a family with no communication skills.

-I will take the chicken breast since no one else likes that.
-Uh, actually, there is one breast, three legs and five thighs left.
-I will take the chicken breast...it is always the least popular.
-TAKE THE DAMN CHICKEN BREAST BUT STOP ACTING LIKE IT IS SOME KIND OF MORAL HIGH GROUND


-It is so sweet of you to offer!
-Is that "Yes, thank you" or "Bless your heart"?!?

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6062 on: November 19, 2020, 06:37:17 PM »
We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer. 

I can't stand passive-aggressive behavior.   It's so damn manipulative and dishonest.

I feel for you.

Ugh, that stuff enrages me. I always want to just treat the "hints" at total face value. Like he's just imparted the knowledge that soon he will need some toilet paper. Right. Knowledge received. Move on. Ohhhhh, you wanted to ask meeeee to get some? Why didn't you sayyyyy?

I am not my best self with this crap.

We all have our foibles.   

Constant whiners make me want to get my axe and go all Lizzy Borden on them.   And I know how.   

That short axe I'm holding in my right hand is about to get personal with the other fellow.

Username: Confirmed!

Shouldn't it be AxeGuy instead?

Note in my other hand is a sword that's cutting into his sword arm so he won't be able to hit back in case I miss with the axe...     Rule #1 is "Don't get hit."   Rule #2 is "Hit the other person."   Priorities matter. :)

jinga nation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6063 on: January 02, 2021, 07:28:23 PM »
not relatives, but very close friends (2 families), who have purchased SUVs prior their first baby being born, for "safety" reasons.

the first friend said he regretted getting the Euro-SUV since him and his wife are short and it was an effort to lift the infant car seat and place it into position and lock it in. and later on strapping the kid in the forward-facing car seat.

wife was told that she should drive an SUV by the wife of the 2nd friend; she said we did fine with compact and mid-sized sedans and had zero back or shoulder issues (which them friend folk were complaining about). told me wife the next day (when she told me about the friends convo) that she should have replied with "regular exercise regimen of running/swimming, lifting weights, and yoga would help alleviate those baby lifting issues".

funny how people will buy a $30k+ SUV but will balk at paying for a modest gym membership or buying good decent equipment for investing in their health.

DaMa

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6064 on: January 03, 2021, 09:58:21 PM »
BIL had planned to retire at 62.  He turned 62, but can't retire because he can't afford to pay for SIL's healthcare for 5 years (she's 60).  He's going to work until he's 65.  Since he has to work, he decided to get a new 3 year lease, instead of buying his current 3 year lease as he planned.

He said, as long as he has to work, he has to have a reliable car.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6065 on: January 04, 2021, 06:44:44 AM »
BIL had planned to retire at 62.  He turned 62, but can't retire because he can't afford to pay for SIL's healthcare for 5 years (she's 60).  He's going to work until he's 65.  Since he has to work, he decided to get a new 3 year lease, instead of buying his current 3 year lease as he planned.

He said, as long as he has to work, he has to have a reliable car.
....right, right...because cars magically become unreliable the moment the lease ends.... SMH

Model96

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6066 on: January 04, 2021, 07:33:43 AM »
BIL had planned to retire at 62.  He turned 62, but can't retire because he can't afford to pay for SIL's healthcare for 5 years (she's 60).  He's going to work until he's 65.  Since he has to work, he decided to get a new 3 year lease, instead of buying his current 3 year lease as he planned.

He said, as long as he has to work, he has to have a reliable car.
....right, right...because cars magically become unreliable the moment the lease ends.... SMH

😂

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6067 on: January 04, 2021, 12:28:56 PM »
BIL had planned to retire at 62.  He turned 62, but can't retire because he can't afford to pay for SIL's healthcare for 5 years (she's 60).  He's going to work until he's 65.  Since he has to work, he decided to get a new 3 year lease, instead of buying his current 3 year lease as he planned.

He said, as long as he has to work, he has to have a reliable car.
....right, right...because cars magically become unreliable the moment the lease ends.... SMH

Absolutely unreliable. We bought an off-lease vehicle. We've put about 60-70K miles on it (~105K miles)

You know the tires wore out and I've had to change the oil from time to time??? Can you believe that? It even gets dirty and we have to wash/vacuum it out. Fortunately, no other problems. YET!

I just KNOW the tires will wear out again eventually. At that point - why we'll probably HAVE to sell it and buy something NEW! The new ones get 1 MPG better mileage I heard.... And the chrome trim around the window buttons has been updated. So stylish it just begs for a person to go into 6-7 years of debt to purchase it. /S

 

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6068 on: January 04, 2021, 01:07:57 PM »
Omg the expense of washing a car. I can’t believe you’d waste that time and money rather than just trading it in...  and oil and new tires on top of that? What are you thinking?

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6069 on: January 04, 2021, 05:54:41 PM »
Or you could just not wash it.... like my embarrassing car.

Tass

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6070 on: January 04, 2021, 06:38:09 PM »
Or you could just not wash it.... like my embarrassing car.

This is my strategy. My car is white and it barely rains here, so it gets GROSS. Every time I see it I am filled with a mixture of amused disgust and perverse pride. Ideally I only see it once a week or so anyway.

iluvzbeach

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6071 on: January 04, 2021, 08:48:23 PM »
I read a post on FB last week where the person said they took their ~3 year old car to the dealership for an oil change and while there they were told they needed new tires. The poster didn’t want to spend the money on new tires so she just traded her car in for the newest model. I can’t even imagine thinking this would be better than getting the new tires.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6072 on: January 04, 2021, 08:54:18 PM »
I read a post on FB last week where the person said they took their ~3 year old car to the dealership for an oil change and while there they were told they needed new tires. The poster didn’t want to spend the money on new tires so she just traded her car in for the newest model. I can’t even imagine thinking this would be better than getting the new tires.

First, start from the position that:

1) Credit cards have "space" on them that can be filled (instead of the way we view it as a liability to be avoided).
2) You've filled up all that "space" on the cards.
3) You have little to no savings because, well, you can't save because of all the debt payments you have to pay each month.
4) Tires would be an extra cost on top of the monthly payments and there's no wiggle room.
5) Therefore, it's "more affordable" to trade which car you make payments on instead of paying for the tires.

Hope that helps.

Now I need to go wash my brain out with soap.

jinga nation

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6073 on: January 05, 2021, 05:46:10 AM »
I read a post on FB last week where the person said they took their ~3 year old car to the dealership for an oil change and while there they were told they needed new tires. The poster didn’t want to spend the money on new tires so she just traded her car in for the newest model. I can’t even imagine thinking this would be better than getting the new tires.

First, start from the position that:

1) Credit cards have "space" on them that can be filled (instead of the way we view it as a liability to be avoided).
2) You've filled up all that "space" on the cards.
3) You have little to no savings because, well, you can't save because of all the debt payments you have to pay each month.
4) Tires would be an extra cost on top of the monthly payments and there's no wiggle room.
5) Therefore, it's "more affordable" to trade which car you make payments on instead of paying for the tires.

Hope that helps.

Now I need to go wash my brain out with soap.

OMG! That's a heckton of logic gates being flip-flopped.
Please ensure the soap is organic and biodegradable and from sustainable/renewable resources. Because the environment is running out of wiggle room. :-p

Syonyk

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6074 on: January 05, 2021, 09:27:02 AM »
That's actually a really good description of how a lot of people think about money, debt, credit cards, payments, etc.

I talked to someone at one point who had the view that when you paid a car off, then you bought a new one.  Because if you didn't have car payments, that money would end up going to payments on something else, and then you wouldn't have money to buy a car when you needed one.  It was utterly baffling, but I certainly see that sort of behavior.

Zikoris

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6075 on: January 05, 2021, 09:44:13 AM »
That's actually a really good description of how a lot of people think about money, debt, credit cards, payments, etc.

I talked to someone at one point who had the view that when you paid a car off, then you bought a new one.  Because if you didn't have car payments, that money would end up going to payments on something else, and then you wouldn't have money to buy a car when you needed one.  It was utterly baffling, but I certainly see that sort of behavior.

I told a coworker once about putting stuff on credit cards for the points and paying it off every month so no interest/fees. Simple concept, right? No, apparently it doesn't work because you won't have enough money to pay it off. Even though your spending and income was exactly the same, just on the credit card versus cash. He explained that it's impossible to just have money in the bank because it gets spent, so my system would be a disaster in even one month. I was like.... Well, couldn't you just NOT spend it? Lol.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6076 on: January 05, 2021, 12:50:11 PM »
That's actually a really good description of how a lot of people think about money, debt, credit cards, payments, etc.

I talked to someone at one point who had the view that when you paid a car off, then you bought a new one.  Because if you didn't have car payments, that money would end up going to payments on something else, and then you wouldn't have money to buy a car when you needed one.  It was utterly baffling, but I certainly see that sort of behavior.

I told a coworker once about putting stuff on credit cards for the points and paying it off every month so no interest/fees. Simple concept, right? No, apparently it doesn't work because you won't have enough money to pay it off. Even though your spending and income was exactly the same, just on the credit card versus cash. He explained that it's impossible to just have money in the bank because it gets spent, so my system would be a disaster in even one month. I was like.... Well, couldn't you just NOT spend it? Lol.

My X would see the bank account was healthy and spend the money on something, even though it was already earmarked for something else.  I hate to remember how often I paid the minimum on the credit card payments.  It wasn't that he didn't know, because I told him often enough, it just never sank in.  So I can perfectly understand people thinking that way.  We are all here because we don't think that way.

Sugaree

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6077 on: January 05, 2021, 01:34:20 PM »
That's actually a really good description of how a lot of people think about money, debt, credit cards, payments, etc.

I talked to someone at one point who had the view that when you paid a car off, then you bought a new one.  Because if you didn't have car payments, that money would end up going to payments on something else, and then you wouldn't have money to buy a car when you needed one.  It was utterly baffling, but I certainly see that sort of behavior.

I told a coworker once about putting stuff on credit cards for the points and paying it off every month so no interest/fees. Simple concept, right? No, apparently it doesn't work because you won't have enough money to pay it off. Even though your spending and income was exactly the same, just on the credit card versus cash. He explained that it's impossible to just have money in the bank because it gets spent, so my system would be a disaster in even one month. I was like.... Well, couldn't you just NOT spend it? Lol.

My X would see the bank account was healthy and spend the money on something, even though it was already earmarked for something else.  I hate to remember how often I paid the minimum on the credit card payments.  It wasn't that he didn't know, because I told him often enough, it just never sank in.  So I can perfectly understand people thinking that way.  We are all here because we don't think that way.

I see we were married to the same man.

PMG

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6078 on: January 05, 2021, 01:51:52 PM »
Mom?! That you?

onward19

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6079 on: January 05, 2021, 02:30:15 PM »
I read a post on FB last week where the person said they took their ~3 year old car to the dealership for an oil change and while there they were told they needed new tires. The poster didn’t want to spend the money on new tires so she just traded her car in for the newest model. I can’t even imagine thinking this would be better than getting the new tires.

 I would say this sounds crazy, but it clearly happens often enough for dealers to try to pitch people the idea.

 The last time ( and it was the last time) that I took my car to the dealership for an oil change, they sent the tech out to me in the waiting room to brag on what amazing shape the car was in for it's age, and how well we'd maintained it etc. It really is in amazing shape for it's age. But they went from that into a pitch for the nice shiny new model sitting on the showroom ten feet away, and how much of a good price I'd get on a trade-in since my old car was in such good condition.
  I can see how people would be tempted by that if they already make poor financial decisions and/or are tired of their old car and want something new.

ysette9

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6080 on: January 05, 2021, 02:48:56 PM »
Or you could just not wash it.... like my embarrassing car.

This is my strategy. My car is white and it barely rains here, so it gets GROSS. Every time I see it I am filled with a mixture of amused disgust and perverse pride. Ideally I only see it once a week or so anyway.
It isn’t my ideal state. I used to love washing my car and taking pride in it. Back when I had time and a driveway to do the work. Now with little kids and urban living the best I can do is take it through the drive-through car wash occasionally, but that doesn’t do anything for the crumb problem in the back seat.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6081 on: January 05, 2021, 03:14:23 PM »
That's actually a really good description of how a lot of people think about money, debt, credit cards, payments, etc.

I talked to someone at one point who had the view that when you paid a car off, then you bought a new one.  Because if you didn't have car payments, that money would end up going to payments on something else, and then you wouldn't have money to buy a car when you needed one.  It was utterly baffling, but I certainly see that sort of behavior.

I told a coworker once about putting stuff on credit cards for the points and paying it off every month so no interest/fees. Simple concept, right? No, apparently it doesn't work because you won't have enough money to pay it off. Even though your spending and income was exactly the same, just on the credit card versus cash. He explained that it's impossible to just have money in the bank because it gets spent, so my system would be a disaster in even one month. I was like.... Well, couldn't you just NOT spend it? Lol.

My X would see the bank account was healthy and spend the money on something, even though it was already earmarked for something else.  I hate to remember how often I paid the minimum on the credit card payments.  It wasn't that he didn't know, because I told him often enough, it just never sank in.  So I can perfectly understand people thinking that way.  We are all here because we don't think that way.

I see we were married to the same man.

Yes, we were.  As in, we are not now.  Amazing how much further my money goes now.   ;-)

I swear that the ditty about telling the men from the boys by the size (cost?) of their toys has real truth.  Not for all, of course, but for too many.

sherr

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6082 on: January 05, 2021, 04:02:08 PM »
I swear that the ditty about telling the men from the boys by the size (cost?) of their toys has real truth.  Not for all, of course, but for too many.

Hey, you're about to hurt my astronomy-loving feelings. ;)

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6083 on: January 05, 2021, 06:14:46 PM »
I swear that the ditty about telling the men from the boys by the size (cost?) of their toys has real truth.  Not for all, of course, but for too many.

Hey, you're about to hurt my astronomy-loving feelings. ;)

You are on these forums, I would assume you thought long and hard before buying any of your equipment. And I am also assuming this is a serious hobby, not just buying equipment on a whim. If not, feel free to give yourself a face punch.  ;-)

I am sure there are husbands (or ex-husbands*) who could tell the same stories in reverse, but I am amazed at how many women I know, in person and on various forums, who penny pinch while their husbands indulge themselves in every whim.  I even know a few widows who were worried about finances after their husbands died who are finding their finances are actually in better shape.  The small indulgences also add up, as we know from Pete's get rich $10 at a time blog.

* We know there are mustachians of both genders who post here, who have been through the financial and emotional hell that is divorce.  In the long run the finances end up OK, because we are mustachian and we do make them work.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6084 on: January 05, 2021, 06:32:44 PM »
Speaking of weird marriage arrangements, I have a college friend who got married about a year after graduation.  She was a teacher, he was a pharmaceutical sales rep.  Their financial arrangement (per his request) was that they split all expenses equally - rent, utilities, groceries, etc.  Of course, at the end of the month, he always had money for new skis, golf clubs, clothes, you name it.  She did not.  That lasted about a year before they divorced.  At least she recognized the situation and resolved it quickly.

Zikoris

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6085 on: January 05, 2021, 06:47:47 PM »
Speaking of weird marriage arrangements, I have a college friend who got married about a year after graduation.  She was a teacher, he was a pharmaceutical sales rep.  Their financial arrangement (per his request) was that they split all expenses equally - rent, utilities, groceries, etc.  Of course, at the end of the month, he always had money for new skis, golf clubs, clothes, you name it.  She did not.  That lasted about a year before they divorced.  At least she recognized the situation and resolved it quickly.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that arrangement. I've always had that setup - split joint expenses 50/50, pay individual expenses separately - because I am super egalitarian and have no interest in either subsidizing someone else, or being subsidized. But the key is, you need to have a standard of living that works for the lower earner - it's fucked up to ask for 50/50 and then also push for housing, food, etc beyond the lower earner's ability to afford. And honestly, a teacher would have to be pretty dumb to not realize ahead of time that separate expenses with a high earner would mean... they had more money left over.

SwordGuy

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6086 on: January 05, 2021, 07:02:52 PM »
Speaking of weird marriage arrangements, I have a college friend who got married about a year after graduation.  She was a teacher, he was a pharmaceutical sales rep.  Their financial arrangement (per his request) was that they split all expenses equally - rent, utilities, groceries, etc.  Of course, at the end of the month, he always had money for new skis, golf clubs, clothes, you name it.  She did not.  That lasted about a year before they divorced.  At least she recognized the situation and resolved it quickly.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that arrangement. I've always had that setup - split joint expenses 50/50, pay individual expenses separately - because I am super egalitarian and have no interest in either subsidizing someone else, or being subsidized. But the key is, you need to have a standard of living that works for the lower earner - it's fucked up to ask for 50/50 and then also push for housing, food, etc beyond the lower earner's ability to afford. And honestly, a teacher would have to be pretty dumb to not realize ahead of time that separate expenses with a high earner would mean... they had more money left over.

I've noted over the last 8 years on MMM that those who think this arrangement is fair tend to make the same or much more than their partners.    I've also noted over a lifetime that folks who benefit from ANY arrangement tend to believe it's the right and proper way to do things and have little interest or motivation to learn otherwise.   Quite a lot of resistance to learning otherwise is often the case, actually.

I'm not saying any specific person is, I'm just noting a general pattern that's very often true.

My wife and I are a a team.   We each bring different strengths to our marriage.   Only one of those strengths to consider is our ability to bring in income.   My wife is way better at giving us a way better standard of living for what we spend than I would ever be.  It would cost us 20% more (at least!) if I was in charge of food and clothing expenses.   One of us needed a job with more flexibility in its hours because of our disabled child, my job ended up requiring a fair bit of travel and longer hours over the years.    My wife did more around the house because of that, too.

To split expenses evenly and keep our own individual income left over would have been grossly unfair in our situation.

Plus, we're a team and we're in this together.

Metalcat

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6087 on: January 05, 2021, 08:01:16 PM »
That's actually a really good description of how a lot of people think about money, debt, credit cards, payments, etc.

I talked to someone at one point who had the view that when you paid a car off, then you bought a new one.  Because if you didn't have car payments, that money would end up going to payments on something else, and then you wouldn't have money to buy a car when you needed one.  It was utterly baffling, but I certainly see that sort of behavior.

This is extremely common thinking. Far, far more common than you would expect, to the point that I would even call it the norm in a lot of circles.

I knew a financial advisor who thought this way. He had a low mileage Subaru that he had put a ton of money into modifying. Anyway, once it was paid off, he made the RADICAL decision to keep his beloved, low mileage, heavily modified car instead of trading it in and dumping more money into modifying another car.

He was so amazed by the cash flow it freed up, he actually walked around telling people "my car LITERALLY makes me money every month!! LITERALLY!"

Yeah...this guy got paid, quite well, to give people financial advice.

...while his car LITERALLY made him money every month by not having a loan payment. SMH.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6088 on: January 05, 2021, 08:24:50 PM »
To split expenses evenly and keep our own individual income left over would have been grossly unfair in our situation.

Plus, we're a team and we're in this together.

While DW and I have maintained separate (though linked) checking accounts, which allowed us to manage our own balances back when money was tighter, we’ve managed our money as a team from early on.

It first started about 2 months into dating. I was working, she was in grad school. I wanted to go on a road trip with her, but she couldn’t afford to split the cost of the trip.  The cost was only going to be about $500 of food, gas, and a couple of hotel nights as we would be staying with family most of the time. I said I’d just pay for it, and she declined. She’s an independent (and frugal) woman!

We ended up agreeing to split the cost of the trip proportionally to our income. I think she paid for the motel 6 and a tank of gas. I paid for the other 4 tanks and food and the B&B. I’ve always brought in more income, but we’re a team and we figure out the saving and spending together. Money is about the only thing we’ve never argued about, which is weird because it seems to be such a point of conflict for so many others. 

kanga1622

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6089 on: January 05, 2021, 08:48:34 PM »
I swear that the ditty about telling the men from the boys by the size (cost?) of their toys has real truth.  Not for all, of course, but for too many.

Hey, you're about to hurt my astronomy-loving feelings. ;)

You are on these forums, I would assume you thought long and hard before buying any of your equipment. And I am also assuming this is a serious hobby, not just buying equipment on a whim. If not, feel free to give yourself a face punch.  ;-)

I am sure there are husbands (or ex-husbands*) who could tell the same stories in reverse, but I am amazed at how many women I know, in person and on various forums, who penny pinch while their husbands indulge themselves in every whim.  I even know a few widows who were worried about finances after their husbands died who are finding their finances are actually in better shape.  The small indulgences also add up, as we know from Pete's get rich $10 at a time blog.

* We know there are mustachians of both genders who post here, who have been through the financial and emotional hell that is divorce.  In the long run the finances end up OK, because we are mustachian and we do make them work.

I had an aunt that had exactly 1 bra that she hand washed every night and a few pair of underwear that the elastic was basically shot. She pinched every penny she could to try to keep them afloat. Meanwhile, her husband was working part time while in grad school (taking it all on loans) and buying himself new clothes all the time because he was a “professional.” She was in a much better place when she decided his infidelity (financial and otherwise) would no longer be her problem. But the debt she took on in the divorce was just crazy!

Just Joe

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6090 on: January 05, 2021, 10:12:18 PM »
I read a post on FB last week where the person said they took their ~3 year old car to the dealership for an oil change and while there they were told they needed new tires. The poster didn’t want to spend the money on new tires so she just traded her car in for the newest model. I can’t even imagine thinking this would be better than getting the new tires.

That is some amazing magical math... ;)

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6091 on: January 06, 2021, 05:12:35 AM »
Speaking of weird marriage arrangements, I have a college friend who got married about a year after graduation.  She was a teacher, he was a pharmaceutical sales rep.  Their financial arrangement (per his request) was that they split all expenses equally - rent, utilities, groceries, etc.  Of course, at the end of the month, he always had money for new skis, golf clubs, clothes, you name it.  She did not.  That lasted about a year before they divorced.  At least she recognized the situation and resolved it quickly.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that arrangement. I've always had that setup - split joint expenses 50/50, pay individual expenses separately - because I am super egalitarian and have no interest in either subsidizing someone else, or being subsidized. But the key is, you need to have a standard of living that works for the lower earner - it's fucked up to ask for 50/50 and then also push for housing, food, etc beyond the lower earner's ability to afford. And honestly, a teacher would have to be pretty dumb to not realize ahead of time that separate expenses with a high earner would mean... they had more money left over.

I've noted over the last 8 years on MMM that those who think this arrangement is fair tend to make the same or much more than their partners.    I've also noted over a lifetime that folks who benefit from ANY arrangement tend to believe it's the right and proper way to do things and have little interest or motivation to learn otherwise.   Quite a lot of resistance to learning otherwise is often the case, actually.

I'm not saying any specific person is, I'm just noting a general pattern that's very often true.

My wife and I are a a team.   We each bring different strengths to our marriage.  (...)

To split expenses evenly and keep our own individual income left over would have been grossly unfair in our situation.


We have the same arrangement as @Zikoris. Our family situations are also quite similar I think - in our 30s, no children, not really career focused, no or little student loans, living a modest life even by MMM standards. As you say @SwordGuy, in your situation, raising a child, especially a disabled child which (I assume) is even harder than raising a healthy child, it makes sense that one half of a couple focuses on that while the other focuses on their career. And it would certainly not be fair if a woman who works parttime or not at all to care for a disabled child has no money of her own to get a haircut while her husband can spend on whatever he likes. I think very few people would think that's fair. In our case, we make sure the "big pots" of money are seperate but it's not like he can't eat "my" food in the fridge or something (which is what some people think we do!) . We have a joint account for food and bills that we both put money into and for small expenses the person who has their wallet with them pays.

But I don't really consider Mr Imma and I to be a "team". I know he has my back and will help me whenever he can, but we don't have a joint "thing" to work on as a team. I live my life, he lives his life. We don't have children or a joint business or a farm or anything like that.

When we met, I had a lower income than he did, and lived in a cheap rental that I paid for on my own. When he first moved in, we had to discuss how much we were each going to pay towards the rent, and I didn't feel it would be fair if he would pay 75% of the rent because he made more money. Effectively that would mean I would make a profit off him. It didn't feel right. Besides, my income was lower but I was putting myself through evening classes at the time and I knew I'd probably make the same as him later on in my career. I knew his income would never really increase - he's an artist, he works parttime to pay the bills. He does make a bit more now than he did then, but it's never going to be a lot. He's happy to work this job for his entire life. He's not particularly interested in RE either because he likes the structure work brings to his life.

For the first couple of years my income was lower, then it was similar to his, then we both started to make more money but we were still almost making the same. Now, for the first time, since a couple of months I make significantly more money than he does. We have been thinking of how to handle this, because we both like the 50/50 split that we've been doing for years. We are both financially responsible but we make different choices. As a child of an abusive marriage, it's also extremely important for me to always have access to money that is mine alone.

However, due to my new high income, he no longer qualifies for subsidized healthcare either, so I've decided to pay health insurance for both of us now. We like our current lifestyle so I'm not expecting much of a lifestyle creep. At this point, my net worth is about €10k higher than his, even though our incomes were similar. But from now on, my net worth will go up significantly every month. It does feel a bit weird, but on the other hand it doesn't really feel that unfair. He has spent most of his free time over the years making art, something he enjoys but knows will probably never earn him a lot of money. I've spent my free time studying, putting myself through undergrad and grad school while working. I didn't really enjoy that but I knew it would pay off. Different choices, different results. Because I also have a disability, reaching FI ASAP is extremely important to me. I want to be able to stop working when I want to, when I'm still healthy, instead of being forced to work until I no longer can in order to qualify for a disability payment.

havregryn

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6092 on: January 06, 2021, 05:42:48 AM »
Speaking of weird marriage arrangements, I have a college friend who got married about a year after graduation.  She was a teacher, he was a pharmaceutical sales rep.  Their financial arrangement (per his request) was that they split all expenses equally - rent, utilities, groceries, etc.  Of course, at the end of the month, he always had money for new skis, golf clubs, clothes, you name it.  She did not.  That lasted about a year before they divorced.  At least she recognized the situation and resolved it quickly.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that arrangement. I've always had that setup - split joint expenses 50/50, pay individual expenses separately - because I am super egalitarian and have no interest in either subsidizing someone else, or being subsidized. But the key is, you need to have a standard of living that works for the lower earner - it's fucked up to ask for 50/50 and then also push for housing, food, etc beyond the lower earner's ability to afford. And honestly, a teacher would have to be pretty dumb to not realize ahead of time that separate expenses with a high earner would mean... they had more money left over.

I've noted over the last 8 years on MMM that those who think this arrangement is fair tend to make the same or much more than their partners.    I've also noted over a lifetime that folks who benefit from ANY arrangement tend to believe it's the right and proper way to do things and have little interest or motivation to learn otherwise.   Quite a lot of resistance to learning otherwise is often the case, actually.

I'm not saying any specific person is, I'm just noting a general pattern that's very often true.


I love this post!
In Sweden there seems to be a borderline obsession with being super individual and almost everyone is dividing expenses this way. I have yet to meet a divorced woman who didn't royally screw herself over this way. Because they tend to earn less and spend more on kids etc.
In any situation where this would be 100% fair (both partners earn the same and spend the same) it would also be 100% irrelevant (because math).
In all other situations, they are punishing the lower earner for no obvious reason. Ironically, outside this forum I get the opposite vibe than what you say. Most high earning men I know like to have the wives take over a larger chunk of care for kids but also understand that it can only work if total income is shared fairly. I usually meet low earning women who seem to have been brainwashed into believing that being economically exploited by their partners is a badge of feminist pride.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6093 on: January 06, 2021, 05:50:45 AM »
That's actually a really good description of how a lot of people think about money, debt, credit cards, payments, etc.

I talked to someone at one point who had the view that when you paid a car off, then you bought a new one.  Because if you didn't have car payments, that money would end up going to payments on something else, and then you wouldn't have money to buy a car when you needed one.  It was utterly baffling, but I certainly see that sort of behavior.

I told a coworker once about putting stuff on credit cards for the points and paying it off every month so no interest/fees. Simple concept, right? No, apparently it doesn't work because you won't have enough money to pay it off. Even though your spending and income was exactly the same, just on the credit card versus cash. He explained that it's impossible to just have money in the bank because it gets spent, so my system would be a disaster in even one month. I was like.... Well, couldn't you just NOT spend it? Lol.

I use my CC for everything and pay it off at the end of the month. I know approximately how much I need to pay off the card and each week I have 1/4 taken out and deposited into another account 'for safe keeping'. At the end of the month when I get the bill, I transfer all 4 weeks deposits back over to the regular checking and PAY THE CC OFF! It isn't rocket science! I like to remove the money from the account just so I am not tempted to spend foolishly and not have enough to pay off my bill. The transfer is automatic each week so no work involved until I transfer the sum back on a date that I choose. The coworker you mentioned could get into a habit of paying his CC each week. He could make 4 payments a month or two payments a month. The CC people won't reject early payments!

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6094 on: January 06, 2021, 06:01:38 AM »
@havregryn I had no idea this was common in Sweden. I've never met anyone in real life who does this.

In my country (the Netherlands) the "all income in one pot" approach is absolutely the most common, not just for people in traditional relationships where people are married and one is the breadwinner, but in almost all life situations. Personally I don't think this is a great idea unless people are actually married. I've heard far too many stories about people moving in together, putting all of the money in one account, use that joint money to pay off one person's mortgage or student loan, then a break-up happens and one person is left with empty hands. I wouldn't want to fully share my income without going all in - all assets in both names and a legal right to spousal support to protect the spouse that gives up work to care for the children.

I have a friend with 3 kids, lives for free in a house owned by her in-laws, unmarried to her partner, doesn't work. Hasn't really worked since leaving college as they started their family young. Their life sounds nice now (without bills to pay one income can easily support their family) but if her man ever decides to leave her she'll have to go back to her parents. And if he would pass away she's going to be totally dependent on the charity of his family. She has no rights at all. I think she's an idiot for putting herself in this situation.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6095 on: January 06, 2021, 06:47:49 AM »
That's actually a really good description of how a lot of people think about money, debt, credit cards, payments, etc.

I talked to someone at one point who had the view that when you paid a car off, then you bought a new one.  Because if you didn't have car payments, that money would end up going to payments on something else, and then you wouldn't have money to buy a car when you needed one.  It was utterly baffling, but I certainly see that sort of behavior.

I told a coworker once about putting stuff on credit cards for the points and paying it off every month so no interest/fees. Simple concept, right? No, apparently it doesn't work because you won't have enough money to pay it off. Even though your spending and income was exactly the same, just on the credit card versus cash. He explained that it's impossible to just have money in the bank because it gets spent, so my system would be a disaster in even one month. I was like.... Well, couldn't you just NOT spend it? Lol.

I use my CC for everything and pay it off at the end of the month. I know approximately how much I need to pay off the card and each week I have 1/4 taken out and deposited into another account 'for safe keeping'. At the end of the month when I get the bill, I transfer all 4 weeks deposits back over to the regular checking and PAY THE CC OFF! It isn't rocket science! I like to remove the money from the account just so I am not tempted to spend foolishly and not have enough to pay off my bill. The transfer is automatic each week so no work involved until I transfer the sum back on a date that I choose. The coworker you mentioned could get into a habit of paying his CC each week. He could make 4 payments a month or two payments a month. The CC people won't reject early payments!

Your banking situation may mean you can't do this, but why not just pay it off more often?  I use online banking, so every week or 2 I just go online and pay off my cards in full.  This means I never worry about payment due dates, they are as irrelevant as interest rates.  The money is in a chequing account, so I'm not losing any interest money by using it in chunks rather than all at once.


economista

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6097 on: January 06, 2021, 07:01:35 AM »
That's actually a really good description of how a lot of people think about money, debt, credit cards, payments, etc.

I talked to someone at one point who had the view that when you paid a car off, then you bought a new one.  Because if you didn't have car payments, that money would end up going to payments on something else, and then you wouldn't have money to buy a car when you needed one.  It was utterly baffling, but I certainly see that sort of behavior.

I told a coworker once about putting stuff on credit cards for the points and paying it off every month so no interest/fees. Simple concept, right? No, apparently it doesn't work because you won't have enough money to pay it off. Even though your spending and income was exactly the same, just on the credit card versus cash. He explained that it's impossible to just have money in the bank because it gets spent, so my system would be a disaster in even one month. I was like.... Well, couldn't you just NOT spend it? Lol.

I use my CC for everything and pay it off at the end of the month. I know approximately how much I need to pay off the card and each week I have 1/4 taken out and deposited into another account 'for safe keeping'. At the end of the month when I get the bill, I transfer all 4 weeks deposits back over to the regular checking and PAY THE CC OFF! It isn't rocket science! I like to remove the money from the account just so I am not tempted to spend foolishly and not have enough to pay off my bill. The transfer is automatic each week so no work involved until I transfer the sum back on a date that I choose. The coworker you mentioned could get into a habit of paying his CC each week. He could make 4 payments a month or two payments a month. The CC people won't reject early payments!

Your banking situation may mean you can't do this, but why not just pay it off more often?  I use online banking, so every week or 2 I just go online and pay off my cards in full.  This means I never worry about payment due dates, they are as irrelevant as interest rates.  The money is in a chequing account, so I'm not losing any interest money by using it in chunks rather than all at once.

I 2nd this suggestion. I get paid every 2 weeks so on payday I just go in and pay the balances in full. I have no idea when my payments are actually due and I never look at the statements. I just look at the transactions online when I make my payments.

Imma

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6098 on: January 06, 2021, 07:24:42 AM »
@
I have a friend with 3 kids, lives for free in a house owned by her in-laws, unmarried to her partner, doesn't work. Hasn't really worked since leaving college as they started their family young. Their life sounds nice now (without bills to pay one income can easily support their family) but if her man ever decides to leave her she'll have to go back to her parents. And if he would pass away she's going to be totally dependent on the charity of his family. She has no rights at all. I think she's an idiot for putting herself in this situation.

That IS a difficult situation. In that situation, even as the biological mother of their three children, she could not legally oblige her partner to provide financial support after separation?

For the children, yes, but not for herself. In my country most divorced parents share care 50/50 (so you only receive child support for the days the child is with you) and child support is a standard amount based on tables, not a matter for endless discussion like in American courts. In their income situation she'd get maybe €400 in total child support if she's lucky.

If she was married, she would be entitled to spousal support, and she would automatically be classified as a tenant in their home. That means her in-laws wouldn't easily be able to evict her - the deal that they made with her husband would automatically transfer to her.

Adventine

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Re: Relatives who just don't get it
« Reply #6099 on: January 06, 2021, 07:48:03 AM »
@Imma it does sound like she's put herself at a really significant disadvantage. Let's hope the relationship doesn't break down.