Relatives who just don't get it

[SwordGuy]

There's a wealth of knowledge about people and the problems they cause for themselves in the classics.   And Austen, like Dickens, really understood human nature.

[Zoot]

As a teen I read Austen for the romance, then as a young adult I read it for the wit.  Now I can see the history, economics and social commentary imbedded in every story.  Austen is well worth a read if you've never picked up one of her books.

This x 1000.  :)  The plots of Austen's novels are woven through with financial matters, from Darcy's £10,000 a year to the Dashwoods getting ejected from Norland to the "handsome, clever, and rich" Emma Woodhouse.  There is so much insight about money in her work!

I actually credit Austen (and Amy Dacyczyn, to a lesser degree, and in a different way) for introducing me to the notion of financial independence.  I discovered her work in the mid 90s (when I was around 30--late to the Austen party!) through the BBC production with Jennifer Ehle and Colin Firth, and was intrigued by the new-to-me notion that the gentry of that time didn't engage in "trade" but instead lived off their generationally-accumulated fortunes and the proceeds from their estates.  "Wouldn't it be nice to have THAT kind of setup," I thought.  When I discovered MMM roughly 15 years later, it all clicked in to place.

[Zoot]

It gets better.  Austen describes several family's fortunes as being "in the 4 percents" meaning they were earning enough interest for a safe withdrawl rate.

Oh my goodness--I've seen/heard that phrase over and over in her novels and in adaptations, and I have NEVER made that connection.  Who knew Austen pre-figured Bengen by nearly two centuries? 

Thanks for the brain explosion!  :) 

[chaskavitch]

It gets better.  Austen describes several family's fortunes as being "in the 4 percents" meaning they were earning enough interest for a safe withdrawl rate.

Oh my goodness--I've seen/heard that phrase over and over in her novels and in adaptations, and I have NEVER made that connection.  Who knew Austen pre-figured Bengen by nearly two centuries? 

Thanks for the brain explosion!  :)

That's amazing!  I never knew that's what she meant either, but it makes so much sense. 

[Kris]

I love Jane Austen. I read Pride and Prejudice to my husband last winter every night over dinner prep. And I got him so into the 1995 Pride and Prejudice that we watch it at least once a year.

Man, now I'm gonna have to do a reread of all her other books.

[merula]

Not only does Austen have astute economic commentary, the economist Thomas Piketty references her works extensively (along with Balzac, the French novelist working a few decades later) in his books Capital in the Twenty-first Century and Capital and Inequality.

Austen's works make it clear that everyone in that era expected a 5% return on capital, so that Darcy's £10,000 p.a. income was exactly equivalent to £200,000 in capital. Piketty also draws on the way she links social class and income; there are tons of quotes like the Persuasion one above sprinkled throughout her books.

[pachnik]

It gets better.  Austen describes several family's fortunes as being "in the 4 percents" meaning they were earning enough interest for a safe withdrawl rate.

Oh my goodness--I've seen/heard that phrase over and over in her novels and in adaptations, and I have NEVER made that connection.  Who knew Austen pre-figured Bengen by nearly two centuries? 

Thanks for the brain explosion!  :)

+1  I've also read her novels several times over and never made the connection!!!  LOL!!! 

[RetiredAt63]

Georgette Heyer does too, though not as much.  And some of her characters from good but impoverished families (think Church of England Minister's children) go shopping in the inexpensive but good quality places and carry their shopping home in bags from the expensive places so no-one will know.  And some take their grandmother's stored clothing (from when there was huge amounts of fabric in a dress) and make up new dresses.  Shades of Scarlet and the curtains.

[ixtap]

As a teen I read Austen for the romance, then as a young adult I read it for the wit.  Now I can see the history, economics and social commentary imbedded in every story.  Austen is well worth a read if you've never picked up one of her books.

This x 1000.  :)  The plots of Austen's novels are woven through with financial matters, from Darcy's £10,000 a year to the Dashwoods getting ejected from Norland to the "handsome, clever, and rich" Emma Woodhouse.  There is so much insight about money in her work!

I actually credit Austen (and Amy Dacyczyn, to a lesser degree, and in a different way) for introducing me to the notion of financial independence.  I discovered her work in the mid 90s (when I was around 30--late to the Austen party!) through the BBC production with Jennifer Ehle and Colin Firth, and was intrigued by the new-to-me notion that the gentry of that time didn't engage in "trade" but instead lived off their generationally-accumulated fortunes and the proceeds from their estates.  "Wouldn't it be nice to have THAT kind of setup," I thought.  When I discovered MMM roughly 15 years later, it all clicked in to place.

It gets better.  Austen describes several family's fortunes as being "in the 4 percents" meaning they were earning enough interest for a safe withdrawl rate.

The four percents were a specific corporate bondz rather than just an ideal.

There are many folks of independent means, not just generational wealth. Whether you made you fortune in the military or trade, achieving that independence is looked at differently than continuing to practice whatever made you rich in the first place.

[DeniseNJ]

I found it facinating that the true mark of wealth was not having to work.  Even if you were very modestly endowed with very little to spare, a gentleman was one who didn't need to work.  As if once you had enough to live on it was rather obscene to work and continue to earn more. (MMM?) People of means did charity work and had literary clubs and magazines and ran small or huge estates, similar to nobility but without the titles.  They were the "rich," and then there were the poor, who worked hard with little result and depended on the charity of the "rich."

It wasn't until industrialization when it became possible to get rich by working (in industry) that the working class became the middle class.  They couldn't afford to "retire" but as long as they kept working, they had plenty of dough.  At first it was crass.  But then "industry" became industrious and the middle class was born, coming into the world gung ho, screeching, with a sense of rightousness and entitlement, and an established pattern of work and spend, work and spend, to show that even though you had to work, you had plenty of money as evidenced by all of your nice things. But with no sense of owing to the less fortunate.  After all, they work hard for their money so why should they support those who don't.

And here we are today!

[ysette9]

I love Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre. As with others I agree that I find the parallels with FIRE fascinating, especially the philosophical parts of what you do with your life if you don’t have to fill your days with work.

To my modern eyes it often feels like the rich in those books are constructing their days to constantly combat boredom and a sense of meaningless in life. Of course this is 1000x worse for the women who have such narrowly prescribed lives and can basically aspire to nothing more than marrying a rich dude, and yet are expected to somehow not behave as if their entire life’s purpose is to land some unsuspecting gentleman.

That aside, the talk of income and fortune and who will inherit what and when is interesting for how forthright it all is. We seem to keep our own financial matters quite private where as in P&P the whole neighborhood knows what Mr Bingley’s net worth is before he even moves into town.

[accountingteacher]

Is anyone else interested in creating a ‘Jane Austen’s Economics’ thread?

[SwordGuy]

Is anyone else interested in creating a ‘Jane Austen’s Economics’ thread?

Go for it!

I'll go put my Regency British Naval Uniform on in anticipation...

[shelivesthedream]

Is anyone else interested in creating a ‘Jane Austen’s Economics’ thread?

YES. Never read any myself but would LOVE to lurk as I adore social history of a slightly later period. Please post the link here!

[Zoot]

I'm SO in on the Jane Austen economics thread--so in, in fact, that I went ahead and created it! 

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/jane-austen-economics/

I'll go put my Regency British Naval Uniform on in anticipation...

Now thinking delightful thoughts of Captain Wentworth.  Thanks for the great start to my day!  ;-)

[GatorNation]

My 25 year old cousin lives with her parents because she refuses to get a real job.  She's obsessed with music and hooping (dancing with a hula hoop) and is convinced her hobby will somehow make her a lot of money.  She loves to travel, eat out and party.  She posted on facebook recently that she earns less than $400/week (between hooping, working at a call center, and her pornography work). Her parents have bought her 2 new cars, give her a lot of money, and are constantly saving her from every problem she encounters.  However, she is of the belief that she's some sort of economy/policy genius and is always posting on facebook how the evil American capitalist system must be destroyed.  Here are her two most recent facebook posts:

-Amazing how a bank will charge you a whole ass $35 just for writing a check from the wrong account.  It literally cost them $0 and took me .5 seconds to log in and transfer the funds.  $35.. that's 2-3 meals.  Could feed a small family.  and they charge this to thousands of working class people a day just for making mistakes.  F**K capitalism I don't want to live in this late-stage imperialist hell anymore.  I just wanna gather nuts n berries man.

Later than day, she also wrote:

-My mom just now, angry at me: "that status you posted is stupid.  it's your own fault you can't manage your finances."  I feel sorry for people who want to see change in the world but don't see how breaking generations of capitalist greed could maybe somehow be a good start.  It's sad how brainwashed the average person is into thinking that this is the only logical way to manage money/run an economy.

[zolotiyeruki]

My 25 year old cousin lives with her parents because she refuses to get a real job.  She's obsessed with music and hooping (dancing with a hula hoop) and is convinced her hobby will somehow make her a lot of money.  She loves to travel, eat out and party.  She posted on facebook recently that she earns less than $400/week (between hooping, working at a call center, and her pornography work). Her parents have bought her 2 new cars, give her a lot of money, and are constantly saving her from every problem she encounters.  However, she is of the belief that she's some sort of economy/policy genius and is always posting on facebook how the evil American capitalist system must be destroyed.  Here are her two most recent facebook posts:

-Amazing how a bank will charge you a whole ass $35 just for writing a check from the wrong account.  It literally cost them $0 and took me .5 seconds to log in and transfer the funds.  $35.. that's 2-3 meals.  Could feed a small family.  and they charge this to thousands of working class people a day just for making mistakes.  F**K capitalism I don't want to live in this late-stage imperialist hell anymore.  I just wanna gather nuts n berries man.

Later than day, she also wrote:

-My mom just now, angry at me: "that status you posted is stupid.  it's your own fault you can't manage your finances."  I feel sorry for people who want to see change in the world but don't see how breaking generations of capitalist greed could maybe somehow be a good start.  It's sad how brainwashed the average person is into thinking that this is the only logical way to manage money/run an economy.

"Honey, capitalism is why you have a phone, an internet connection, and a website to post your complaints on."

[bbqbonelesswing]

My 25 year old cousin lives with her parents because she refuses to get a real job.  She's obsessed with music and hooping (dancing with a hula hoop) and is convinced her hobby will somehow make her a lot of money.  She loves to travel, eat out and party.  She posted on facebook recently that she earns less than $400/week (between hooping, working at a call center, and her pornography work). Her parents have bought her 2 new cars, give her a lot of money, and are constantly saving her from every problem she encounters.  However, she is of the belief that she's some sort of economy/policy genius and is always posting on facebook how the evil American capitalist system must be destroyed.  Here are her two most recent facebook posts:

-Amazing how a bank will charge you a whole ass $35 just for writing a check from the wrong account.  It literally cost them $0 and took me .5 seconds to log in and transfer the funds.  $35.. that's 2-3 meals.  Could feed a small family.  and they charge this to thousands of working class people a day just for making mistakes.  F**K capitalism I don't want to live in this late-stage imperialist hell anymore.  I just wanna gather nuts n berries man.

Later than day, she also wrote:

-My mom just now, angry at me: "that status you posted is stupid.  it's your own fault you can't manage your finances."  I feel sorry for people who want to see change in the world but don't see how breaking generations of capitalist greed could maybe somehow be a good start.  It's sad how brainwashed the average person is into thinking that this is the only logical way to manage money/run an economy.

Maybe she should open her own bank- then she could give away all the free services she wants.

[dandarc]

The system can suck and people can be mismanaging their finances at the same time. We can and should work on both at the same time.

[former player]

My 25 year old cousin lives with her parents because she refuses to get a real job.  She's obsessed with music and hooping (dancing with a hula hoop) and is convinced her hobby will somehow make her a lot of money.  She loves to travel, eat out and party.  She posted on facebook recently that she earns less than $400/week (between hooping, working at a call center, and her pornography work). Her parents have bought her 2 new cars, give her a lot of money, and are constantly saving her from every problem she encounters.  However, she is of the belief that she's some sort of economy/policy genius and is always posting on facebook how the evil American capitalist system must be destroyed.  Here are her two most recent facebook posts:

-Amazing how a bank will charge you a whole ass $35 just for writing a check from the wrong account.  It literally cost them $0 and took me .5 seconds to log in and transfer the funds.  $35.. that's 2-3 meals.  Could feed a small family.  and they charge this to thousands of working class people a day just for making mistakes.  F**K capitalism I don't want to live in this late-stage imperialist hell anymore.  I just wanna gather nuts n berries man.

Later than day, she also wrote:

-My mom just now, angry at me: "that status you posted is stupid.  it's your own fault you can't manage your finances."  I feel sorry for people who want to see change in the world but don't see how breaking generations of capitalist greed could maybe somehow be a good start.  It's sad how brainwashed the average person is into thinking that this is the only logical way to manage money/run an economy.

Maybe she should open her own bank- then she could give away all the free services she wants.

Maybe if she can't manage more than one bank account at a time she should only have one bank account.

[Sibley]

My 25 year old cousin lives with her parents because she refuses to get a real job.  She's obsessed with music and hooping (dancing with a hula hoop) and is convinced her hobby will somehow make her a lot of money.  She loves to travel, eat out and party.  She posted on facebook recently that she earns less than $400/week (between hooping, working at a call center, and her pornography work). Her parents have bought her 2 new cars, give her a lot of money, and are constantly saving her from every problem she encounters.  However, she is of the belief that she's some sort of economy/policy genius and is always posting on facebook how the evil American capitalist system must be destroyed.  Here are her two most recent facebook posts:

-Amazing how a bank will charge you a whole ass $35 just for writing a check from the wrong account.  It literally cost them $0 and took me .5 seconds to log in and transfer the funds.  $35.. that's 2-3 meals.  Could feed a small family.  and they charge this to thousands of working class people a day just for making mistakes.  F**K capitalism I don't want to live in this late-stage imperialist hell anymore.  I just wanna gather nuts n berries man.

Later than day, she also wrote:

-My mom just now, angry at me: "that status you posted is stupid.  it's your own fault you can't manage your finances."  I feel sorry for people who want to see change in the world but don't see how breaking generations of capitalist greed could maybe somehow be a good start.  It's sad how brainwashed the average person is into thinking that this is the only logical way to manage money/run an economy.

Maybe she should open her own bank- then she could give away all the free services she wants.

Maybe if she can't manage more than one bank account at a time she should only have one bank account.

Maybe the bank of mom and dad should close. IE, no more money, and oh btw she now owes rent, every month, on the 1st, and if she can't/won't she can move out.

Girl needs to grow up (and yes, I deliberately called her a girl, because an adult woman has her shit together better than that).

[Taran Wanderer]

It's interesting how those who are least responsible for themselves can be most critical of the 'evils' of the system that supports their irresponsible behavior...

[Roadrunner53]

My next door neighbor is divorced and his two mid 20 year old sons live with him. So the Dad says to the son's that he would like to have them start pitching in to help pay for utilities and some other stuff but not actually charging them rent. They laughed at the dad. The older one had a hissy fit and told his father he could live elsewhere with a friend a pay nothing. So he huffed off. About 5 days later he comes home to do his dirty laundry! Are you kidding me? Eventually, his arrangement with the friend must have fizzled and he dragged his sorry butt home. I still don't think either son pays anything to live there. It is ridiculous! They both work. Of course the older one is very lazy and has no ambition. Seems to get seasonal jobs and who knows if he even has medical. He may get paid under the table which means he may not be paying into Social Security. The younger one works under the table and is self employed. So he is also not paying into the 'system'. They think they are getting away with not paying taxes. One day, when they need help or are old and need SS, good luck to them. The older one may be still on Daddy's medical insurance but not much longer. The younger one will be on it for a couple more years. Then no insurance for either of them thru daddy. Because they are young they think they are invincible and will never get sick or hurt they won't bother to buy insurance.
Somehow I envision these two sons still living in the basement as 40 year old men. UGH! Kind of a creepy thought! I blame the Dad for creating this situation. He seems afraid to upset his little boys.

[Plina]

I don’t understand parents that support their adult kids that are able to work. Why would you like to ruin your kids like that? My parents told us that after high school either you work or study, but you don’t have the option to be lazying around at home and be supported by us. They have helped out in form of loans that we had to pay back or if they were forgiven the other siblings got an equivalent amount of cash.

[SwordGuy]

I don’t understand parents that support their adult kids that are able to work. Why would you like to ruin your kids like that? My parents told us that after high school either you work or study, but you don’t have the option to be lazying around at home and be supported by us. They have helped out in form of loans that we had to pay back or if they were forgiven the other siblings got an equivalent amount of cash.

I don't either.

I knew a guy in college who was a complete bum.  Various people would take him under their wing and try to help him out only to discover he was a lazy shit.  Mea culpa, I fell for it too.

Friends of mine gave him a couch to sleep on.  His rent was to, and I quote, "take a shower every day".    It was too much effort for him to do.

While he was away at college his parents moved to a new town and left no forwarding address.

I don't blame them.

I learned an important lesson from him.  Don't help people more than they are willing to help themselves.

[Roadrunner53]

My only guess on my neighbor and his boys is that when he was married to their mother, she was a wretched drunk. They had nasty scream fests out in the yard about her drinking. They, at one point, were just living together. She had gotten arrested a bunch of times for DUI, put in the slammer. Her license was revoked. She would walk miles to a liquor store to get hooch. She went to rehab so many times the insurance wouldn't pay for it anymore. She appeared in public a drunken stumble bum and embarrassed her kids when they were in school. So, I think the Dad has tried to over compensate for what humiliation she put them through. However, that was a long time ago and time for little boys in their mid 20's to grow up. The Dad needs to grow up too.

[saguaro]

So, I think the Dad has tried to over compensate for what humiliation she put them through. However, that was a long time ago and time for little boys in their mid 20's to grow up. The Dad needs to grow up too.

To the bolded:  Agree, both the boys and the Dad need to grow up.   Dad is too afraid to set the boundaries and the boys are more than willing to live like teenagers even though they are in their 20s.  It's unfortunate that all of them were negatively impacted by their mother and in a way it's understandable that Dad is trying to make things up to them, but sending them the message that it's OK to walk over Dad when he makes the reasonable request for them to start pitching in is not making up for that.

An ex boyfriend of mine was being completely supported by his grandparents into his later 20s.   And all because he had "such a terrible childhood".   Which he honestly did and it was pretty tragic what he experienced but still let's just say he milked that for all it was worth and family was too afraid to set boundaries.   And one of the reasons why I broke up with him.   I was working my butt off to get through college while he was not making any financial contribution to his education (or anything for that matter) because of "his problems" and yet wanted to get married, with no idea of how we would support ourselves other than "we can move into my grandparents' basement apartment".   No way.

ETA: My parents also required that after high school, we work or go to school, preferably school but when my sisters dropped out of college, they went to work.   No sitting around for us. 

[Roadrunner53]

SwordGuy, have you ever seen that guy you helped out and did he ever straighten out?

[SwordGuy]

SwordGuy, have you ever seen that guy you helped out and did he ever straighten out?

@Roadrunner53 , I moved out of town and other than telling this story, never gave the guy another thought.

Just asked a friend of mine about it.   Said the fellow moved out of town ages ago, showed up on FB a few years back, and died about 5 years ago.   He said the guy seemed more normal from what little he saw on FB, but then, one never knows the truth about folks from FB.

That's what I got.

[Roadrunner53]

So, I think the Dad has tried to over compensate for what humiliation she put them through. However, that was a long time ago and time for little boys in their mid 20's to grow up. The Dad needs to grow up too.

To the bolded:  Agree, both the boys and the Dad need to grow up.   Dad is too afraid to set the boundaries and the boys are more than willing to live like teenagers even though they are in their 20s.  It's unfortunate that all of them were negatively impacted by their mother and in a way it's understandable that Dad is trying to make things up to them, but sending them the message that it's OK to walk over Dad when he makes the reasonable request for them to start pitching in is not making up for that.

An ex boyfriend of mine was being completely supported by his grandparents into his later 20s.   And all because he had "such a terrible childhood".   Which he honestly did and it was pretty tragic what he experienced but still let's just say he milked that for all it was worth and family was too afraid to set boundaries.   And one of the reasons why I broke up with him.   I was working my butt off to get through college while he was not making any financial contribution to his education (or anything for that matter) because of "his problems" and yet wanted to get married, with no idea of how we would support ourselves other than "we can move into my grandparents' basement apartment".   No way.

ETA: My parents also required that after high school, we work or go to school, preferably school but when my sisters dropped out of college, they went to work.   No sitting around for us.

What got me is when spoiled older son left the house in a hissy fit and claimed he could live free elsewhere but came home to do his laundry. He probably has no clue that people go to laundromats to do clothes washing. Mid twenties and beyond spoiled and immature. When I was their age I was married a few years already, had a full time job and my Hub and I built our home from the ground up. Living with my parents was not in the picture and I wanted out as soon as possible!

[saguaro]

So, I think the Dad has tried to over compensate for what humiliation she put them through. However, that was a long time ago and time for little boys in their mid 20's to grow up. The Dad needs to grow up too.

To the bolded:  Agree, both the boys and the Dad need to grow up.   Dad is too afraid to set the boundaries and the boys are more than willing to live like teenagers even though they are in their 20s.  It's unfortunate that all of them were negatively impacted by their mother and in a way it's understandable that Dad is trying to make things up to them, but sending them the message that it's OK to walk over Dad when he makes the reasonable request for them to start pitching in is not making up for that.

An ex boyfriend of mine was being completely supported by his grandparents into his later 20s.   And all because he had "such a terrible childhood".   Which he honestly did and it was pretty tragic what he experienced but still let's just say he milked that for all it was worth and family was too afraid to set boundaries.   And one of the reasons why I broke up with him.   I was working my butt off to get through college while he was not making any financial contribution to his education (or anything for that matter) because of "his problems" and yet wanted to get married, with no idea of how we would support ourselves other than "we can move into my grandparents' basement apartment".   No way.

ETA: My parents also required that after high school, we work or go to school, preferably school but when my sisters dropped out of college, they went to work.   No sitting around for us.

What got me is when spoiled older son left the house in a hissy fit and claimed he could live free elsewhere but came home to do his laundry. He probably has no clue that people go to laundromats to do clothes washing. Mid twenties and beyond spoiled and immature. When I was their age I was married a few years already, had a full time job and my Hub and I built our home from the ground up. Living with my parents was not in the picture and I wanted out as soon as possible!

This may sound awful, but honestly once the older son left in a huff that was Dad's chance to hold him (the older son) to his decision and let him deal.   I might have gone so far as to change the locks.

Same here, when I was that age I was married, out of the house, working, no house yet but that was OK.   No way did I want to go back to living with my folks, it was not an option for me even if it meant living out of my car.   

[Roadrunner53]

This may sound awful, but honestly once the older son left in a huff that was Dad's chance to hold him (the older son) to his decision and let him deal.   I might have gone so far as to change the locks.

Same here, when I was that age I was married, out of the house, working, no house yet but that was OK.   No way did I want to go back to living with my folks, it was not an option for me even if it meant living out of my car.
[/quote]

I think the Dad thought it was a bit humorous and probably figured his son would come crawling home sooner or later.

[Playing with Fire UK]

While he was away at college his parents moved to a new town and left no forwarding address.

That's one way to deal with it. I can understand the impulse.

[former player]

While he was away at college his parents moved to a new town and left no forwarding address.

That's one way to deal with it. I can understand the impulse.

Yes, much easier than just talking to him.

[SwordGuy]

While he was away at college his parents moved to a new town and left no forwarding address.

That's one way to deal with it. I can understand the impulse.

Yes, much easier than just talking to him.

Maybe I forgot to mention this part of the story.   At one point the people I was renting a room from let him stay on the couch because he had no money, no job, and nowhere else to go.   Room and board and his only rent was "take a shower each day".

And he couldn't be bothered to pay his rent.

What was there to talk about?    Seriously, how could you have a rational, useful conversation that would lead to actual positive results with someone like that?

Do you think they never tried?   

[former player]

While he was away at college his parents moved to a new town and left no forwarding address.

That's one way to deal with it. I can understand the impulse.

Yes, much easier than just talking to him.

Maybe I forgot to mention this part of the story.   At one point the people I was renting a room from let him stay on the couch because he had no money, no job, and nowhere else to go.   Room and board and his only rent was "take a shower each day".

And he couldn't be bothered to pay his rent.

What was there to talk about?    Seriously, how could you have a rational, useful conversation that would lead to actual positive results with someone like that?

Do you think they never tried?

That seems to have been a joke about English reticence on emotional and family matters that got lost in translation. Sorry.

[Just Joe]

It happens. I know two 40s MEN (boys) who live at home b/c neither of them can hold down a job. At one time both made a good living. Mental illness? Parenting failure?

[Sugaree]

How about the family member that pawned an expensive chainsaw over the summer.  He's now paid twice as much in interest as he borrowed and nearly as much as it would cost to go out and buy a new one.

[NYExpat]

My MIL died back in February a 1.5 months before COVID hit big. She had a heart attack due to a replaced heart valve going bad. She was in the hospital for 2(?) days and we visited for when she was discharged from the hospital.  We drove home 3 hours away and got woken up the morning that she had another massive heart attack and didn't make it.  MIL worked, FIL is on SS Disability due to poor health from not maintaining diabetes.  Their marriage was rocky for years but everyone is still pretty upset with FIL because one of the first things he said while in the ER after she passed was "She just got paid and I'm not on the account"  She had a separate account because he IS spendy-pants and has opened up multiple cards behind her back ~15K.

Between her 401K/IRA that he cashed out, life insurance payout and cash envelope that MIL coworkers gave him, he's been blowing through cash on stupid stuff.  We had to move him into subsidized housing, but he doesn't want to give up the leased SUV.  Brother-in-law who was on a joint account ended up pulling some of the money into another account so that FIL didn't blow through it all in a couple years.  His response "I'll play that game".  We'd talk to him about finances and his spending and he's say the right things, but never change.

It's infuriating when we're not trying to play a game, we're trying to make sure he doesn't starve to death or end up homeless. It's not like it's some huge inheritance we're mad about not getting, we just don't want him to have to live at a soup kitchen. And yet the diabetic still drinks pop and buys prepared food.  We're not going to abandon him, but it sucks when people are selfish.  It feels bad to say, but we all assumed he would die from a diabetic related infection long before MIL. 

[Just Joe]

WOW....

[NYExpat]

I suppose to be "fair" not all the 15K credit card debt was secret, but he's always lived beyond his means. It's telling that MIL made DW the beneficiary of a work life insurance policy instead of her spouse.  When you're in your early 30's you shouldn't have more money than someone just getting to retirement age.  I'm glad I got the FIRE bug early-ish.  At least my parents have their act together.

[better late]

While he was away at college his parents moved to a new town and left no forwarding address.

That's one way to deal with it. I can understand the impulse.

Yes, much easier than just talking to him.

Maybe I forgot to mention this part of the story.   At one point the people I was renting a room from let him stay on the couch because he had no money, no job, and nowhere else to go.   Room and board and his only rent was "take a shower each day".

And he couldn't be bothered to pay his rent.

What was there to talk about?    Seriously, how could you have a rational, useful conversation that would lead to actual positive results with someone like that?

Do you think they never tried?

That seems to have been a joke about English reticence on emotional and family matters that got lost in translation. Sorry.

Your prior reply made me laugh out loud :)

[better late]

My MIL died back in February a 1.5 months before COVID hit big. She had a heart attack due to a replaced heart valve going bad. She was in the hospital for 2(?) days and we visited for when she was discharged from the hospital.  We drove home 3 hours away and got woken up the morning that she had another massive heart attack and didn't make it.  MIL worked, FIL is on SS Disability due to poor health from not maintaining diabetes.  Their marriage was rocky for years but everyone is still pretty upset with FIL because one of the first things he said while in the ER after she passed was "She just got paid and I'm not on the account"  She had a separate account because he IS spendy-pants and has opened up multiple cards behind her back ~15K.

Between her 401K/IRA that he cashed out, life insurance payout and cash envelope that MIL coworkers gave him, he's been blowing through cash on stupid stuff.  We had to move him into subsidized housing, but he doesn't want to give up the leased SUV.  Brother-in-law who was on a joint account ended up pulling some of the money into another account so that FIL didn't blow through it all in a couple years.  His response "I'll play that game".  We'd talk to him about finances and his spending and he's say the right things, but never change.

It's infuriating when we're not trying to play a game, we're trying to make sure he doesn't starve to death or end up homeless. It's not like it's some huge inheritance we're mad about not getting, we just don't want him to have to live at a soup kitchen. And yet the diabetic still drinks pop and buys prepared food.  We're not going to abandon him, but it sucks when people are selfish.  It feels bad to say, but we all assumed he would die from a diabetic related infection long before MIL.

Whoa - that’s a lot! I understand how you’re feeling the way you’ve described feeling.

With the disability If there is any money that isn’t directly his you might be able to put it in a special needs trust, but it can’t be his money funding it. Might be worth looking into

[NYExpat]

Interesting, I'd never heard of a special needs trust. Not sure if the diabetes would qualify, but there is also not really enough money to provide an income stream for him.  We've got some life insurance money set aside for when he runs out, but things are definitely strained.

[Sibley]

My MIL died back in February a 1.5 months before COVID hit big. She had a heart attack due to a replaced heart valve going bad. She was in the hospital for 2(?) days and we visited for when she was discharged from the hospital.  We drove home 3 hours away and got woken up the morning that she had another massive heart attack and didn't make it.  MIL worked, FIL is on SS Disability due to poor health from not maintaining diabetes.  Their marriage was rocky for years but everyone is still pretty upset with FIL because one of the first things he said while in the ER after she passed was "She just got paid and I'm not on the account"  She had a separate account because he IS spendy-pants and has opened up multiple cards behind her back ~15K.

Between her 401K/IRA that he cashed out, life insurance payout and cash envelope that MIL coworkers gave him, he's been blowing through cash on stupid stuff.  We had to move him into subsidized housing, but he doesn't want to give up the leased SUV.  Brother-in-law who was on a joint account ended up pulling some of the money into another account so that FIL didn't blow through it all in a couple years.  His response "I'll play that game".  We'd talk to him about finances and his spending and he's say the right things, but never change.

It's infuriating when we're not trying to play a game, we're trying to make sure he doesn't starve to death or end up homeless. It's not like it's some huge inheritance we're mad about not getting, we just don't want him to have to live at a soup kitchen. And yet the diabetic still drinks pop and buys prepared food.  We're not going to abandon him, but it sucks when people are selfish.  It feels bad to say, but we all assumed he would die from a diabetic related infection long before MIL.

To be perfectly honest... there are plenty of people who survive on social security, food stamps, low income housing, etc. If he ends up as one of them, he will have done it to himself. It's ok to let him just blow the money and then grumble about being poor, while family makes sure the bare minimum needs are met.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Their marriage was rocky for years but everyone is still pretty upset with FIL because one of the first things he said while in the ER after she passed was "She just got paid and I'm not on the account" 

Yeah.... I think that would be a strong signal to me to let him rot in his own filth. But that's just me.

[SavinMaven]

we're trying to make sure he doesn't starve to death or end up homeless.

I have BTDT and I'm sorry to say, it never works. If he isn't willing to make sure he doesn't starve to death or end up homeless, anyone else trying to do so for him will fail eventually.

I highly recommend the book Boundaries by Henry Cloud and John Townsend. It has a Christian slant, if that offends you, but it's applicable enough to everyone that it was a NYT bestseller. It's life-changing.

[NYExpat]

Thanks for the book recommendation. I think DW may have read it, or something similar. The saga continues. FIL is in the hospital with an infection and will have a toe amputated.  At the end of the last week the DW got a group text with him asking if someone could take him to the hospital because of the the infection.  Several days later he's texting bemoaning the fact that he just bought all this lettuce and tomatoes that are going to go to waster in the fridge. He's resigned himself to the fact that he was going to lose a toe, he just didn't think it would happen so soon. 

[SwordGuy]

Thanks for the book recommendation. I think DW may have read it, or something similar. The saga continues. FIL is in the hospital with an infection and will have a toe amputated.  At the end of the last week the DW got a group text with him asking if someone could take him to the hospital because of the the infection.  Several days later he's texting bemoaning the fact that he just bought all this lettuce and tomatoes that are going to go to waster in the fridge. He's resigned himself to the fact that he was going to lose a toe, he just didn't think it would happen so soon.

Because he couldn't just give it away to people who go out of their way to tote him around on demand?

[NYExpat]

Yeah I'm sure that idea never occurred to him. His apartment isn't particularly convenient for the two siblings who are near, so I doubt they'd swing by to grab it. He was likely just saying that so we'd know he bought healthy food, but didn't mention that he likely still has pop/soda in the fridge.  He did text "I think I'm going to need some more toilet paper soon..."  We've told him if he needs something, he should ask for it, but he keeps asking in this really passive aggressive way to see if someone will volunteer.  He'll likely be in a hospital for a while, but then will likely not be able to drive for even longer.